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With Naomi Brehm
118 Plays2 years ago
Solas is often involved helping Christian Union groups at universities across the UK, as they put on evangelistic events and missions. It is a privilege to answer questions from students and help them think through aspects of the gospel message. Today we're joined by someone involved full-time in student ministry, to hear about the questions, opportunities and priorities found in the student world.
Naomi Brehm is a UCCF Staff Worker in the North East of England, supporting the Christian Unions in Durham and Hartlepool. She studied a Physics Masters degree at Durham University, trained with OCCA The Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics and now loves helping students to discuss big questions and explore faith for the first time.
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Transcript
Introduction and Co-host Absence
00:00:10
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another exciting edition of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I am Andy Bannister from Solas and I am joined. Well, actually I'm not joined by Christy Mayer because Christy, my usual sidekick is often something very exciting, Anglican and academic at Oak Hill College, where she works. But I am joined by my Solas partner in crime, Gavin Matthews. Gavin, well, you've said them before, but welcome to Pep Talk.
00:00:36
Speaker
Hi Andy, how are you doing? Are you all right? I know well, I've just travelled down from Scotland, so I've dashed off the plane, run up, run in the house, wolf down a quick sandwich, and now I'm doing this. And we are joined today by someone not from Scotland, not from England, actually they are from England, but not from the south of England where I am.
Naomi's Role with UCCF
00:00:53
Speaker
We're joined by Naomi Brem from Durham. Naomi, welcome to PepTalk. Thanks, Andy. Great to be here.
00:01:00
Speaker
Yes, and if you thought you were working professionals, that introduction would have shattered those illusions. Now, maybe you are, I believe, I get this right, you are a staff worker with UCCF working there in Durham. Now, many people may have no idea what either of those things are, not the word Durham, they can just find out the map, but they may wonder, what is a staff worker? What is UCCF? So what are those things and what are you doing there in that university town?
00:01:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It's a good question. I mean, the name staff worker is probably the most stupid job title ever, because isn't everyone a staff or a worker in whatever they're doing? Anyway, staff worker. So what I do is help to resource and equip and support and cheer on the Christian Union in
Significance of Student Ministry
00:01:48
Speaker
Durham. So I help students to share Jesus with the rest of their campus, with their friends, put on events, think about personal evangelism, that kind of thing.
00:01:57
Speaker
But I'm also here to help create conversations about faith with students that maybe have never thought about Jesus before. And UCCF is an organisation that works, well, a charity that works across the UK doing this in loads of universities. So there are many of us working to resource and equip and help Christian students to share the gospel in their context.
00:02:23
Speaker
And is student ministry something that's particularly significant? I mean, we do put a lot of effort into student ministry across the country. It's something that we've kind of been aware of for a very long time. But why student ministry? What's significant about students and why have you got back into the university setting after graduating a few years ago to invest your life and your time amongst this particular group? What's the significance of this cohort? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Students are
00:02:49
Speaker
brilliant. They have lots of opinions. They have lots of thoughts. They've also got quite a lot of flexible time to do lots of thinking and to be exploring and deciding things like, who am I going to be?
Post-COVID Student Questions
00:03:01
Speaker
And what is my life going to look like? And it's a really key time for students making those big decisions and a formational time for for kind of their their beliefs and habits and lifestyles that is going to
00:03:17
Speaker
kind of create the foundation for the rest of their lives. Having said that, it's also just amazing to think that the students I'm working with now, particularly in a place like Durham, are going to go on to be leaders across our nation, across the world. They're going to go on to have influence. And wouldn't it be amazing to think that someone could arrive at university, decide to ask lots of big questions about life, discover Jesus,
00:03:46
Speaker
dig into the Bible, realize the truth of it all, have their life transformed in those three to four years, and then continue in whatever they were planning to do. Go on to be a lawyer, a CEO, run a charity, do whatever, and do it for Jesus. Wouldn't that be incredible? The kind of influence that students can go on to have in the future is what gets me excited about
00:04:09
Speaker
seeing them come to know the Lord now. That's an amazing kind of vision and picture you paint there Navy. But look, the question some people might be asking is kind of what's fantastic, but you know, surely aren't universities like absolute bastions of secularism? I mean, isn't it just that most students today just not interested, you know, you're dealing with intellectuals, people who probably are not interested in those
00:04:30
Speaker
kind of things. Do you find that the case? Is it a very closed place or is it always somewhere that's sort of easy to get conversations going? How do you find it there on your campus? Yeah, I think universities definitely are a place that can have, they maybe have the kind of the heights and the depths
University Culture and Faith Exploration
00:04:51
Speaker
of what's going on in culture. It can either come from what's happening in universities or it can be exaggerated. There's an article from the Guardian recently that said
00:05:00
Speaker
It's said that anyone wanting to see something of the culture wars in the UK should go to Durham University. But it's the place where everything seems to be exaggerated. And perhaps that could be true for secularism, although the thing is, at the moment, particularly post COVID, students, I think, are less sure about anything. Everything is uncertain. Everything has been thrown up in the air.
00:05:31
Speaker
And coming back, so I graduated 2019, pre-pandemic, at that time, yeah, it probably was a place where intellectual questions were the main questions people were asking. And having come back, returned in 2021, it is completely different and students are far more open, perhaps a lot more ready to hear good news and want to talk about things like what happens when you die.
00:05:57
Speaker
or is there actually meaning in my pain? So slightly different questions, but definitely there's an openness. And although people have strong opinions and they might be voicing the questions of the culture really loudly at university, they are questioning and they are wrestling with things for themselves in a way that I think once people graduate and kind of get set in their ways,
00:06:25
Speaker
it might be slightly harder to change their minds or change their lifestyles later on in life.
00:06:32
Speaker
And have you noticed a significant change in the sorts of questions people are asking? You kind of hinted at that. So you've been involved in the students here, what, seven or eight years since you went in first year as an undergraduate to today. Some of the kind of the changing nature of the sorts of questions that come up. If you were, you know, if you're doing a lunch bar or you're doing a Q and A session, what sort of things would have been maybe more typical when you were a first year as to, you know, eight years later today? Yeah, probably on the whole. And I think, I think
00:07:01
Speaker
other people have mentioned this on the podcast before, I think on the whole, there's been a shift away from the more original kind of apologetics questions of how can you be a scientist and a Christian or questions around reliability of the Bible and historical evidence for Jesus. Those questions do still come up, definitely. But I think you've got an injection of more of the heart level questions that kind of with this
00:07:29
Speaker
Does this work? Is this relevant? Rather than show me proof that Jesus was a real person 2,000 years ago. It's like, well, even if he was, what does that matter now? Can you make a difference in my life? And instead of the kind of philosophical questions around suffering, you might be more likely to get the, instead of why does suffering happen, you might be more likely to get, okay, well, suffering is given. What's the point in it?
00:07:58
Speaker
And where can I find hope in it? So there's just slightly different questions, perhaps. And I'm hesitant to say that we've strayed away from apologetics because ultimately apologetics is applying the gospel and explaining it in whatever context you find yourself. And so there is still need for apologetics. It's just that the way in which we are defending faith, the way
00:08:28
Speaker
The culture and the questions and the heart behind the questions that are coming is slightly different. So we still need apologetics. We still need to talk about the gospel in a way that is compelling and showing its truth and its beauty. But yeah, it's slightly different. That's really helpful.
00:08:48
Speaker
We've talked a bit about the sort of setting there on campus name and how you've been engaging with
Encouraging Christian Students
00:08:54
Speaker
that. Let's turn it around a bit now and let's talk about the Christians on campus. What's it like for Christian students? You've got obviously experience now at UCF staff worker, but for younger folks, those who perhaps their first, second year there at Durham,
00:09:09
Speaker
Do people find it an easy place to sort of get involved in sharing their faith? Is it a place where you find sort of new Christians coming? There's a temptation to keep one's head down and say nothing. And if it's more of the latter, I suppose, how do you want to go to help equip students? How are you finding some of the ways to get those perhaps a little bit more fearful to get a bit more confident and a bit more sort of engaged with sharing their faith with their friends? Yeah, I think I find it helpful to
00:09:37
Speaker
help people to look at Jesus for themselves, to fall in love with Him more, and knowing that that is the thing that's going to spur them on to share Him. If I meet a fresher and I start telling them, oh, here are some five top tips for sharing your faith, and I don't tell them first, here's some ways to really get to know the Lord yourself, then I'm missing something. Knowing that if you're, if you've fallen in love with someone or you've got a song in your head that you just can't get out,
00:10:07
Speaker
or you found some new hobby that you're obsessed with, you're just naturally going to talk about it with people. And so I find that discipleship and training for evangelism kind of come together. If I can help students to know and love the Bible, know and love Jesus for themselves, it's more likely to then naturally kind of overflow. But also that as they look at Jesus, they'll see a man who
00:10:34
Speaker
deals with other people like a human and who asks them questions and takes an interest in them and is interruptible and has meals with people. And my hope is that they then are also inspired to not just kind of bring some four point gospel to every single person they meet, but firstly, let me get to know Jesus. Let me get to know the person in front of me too. Let me ask them questions. Let me hang out with them, spend time with them.
00:11:04
Speaker
Be where the people are, meet them where they're at. Don't turn up at uni at Fresher's week and just fill your schedule with Christian things. But do like Jesus did and be found around a dinner table, be found in the bar, in the pub, in the place where the people are. So yeah, that's probably my main focus is no Jesus, no people. And then bringing the two together ultimately is what evangelism is, introducing people to him.
00:11:33
Speaker
There's something happened. Before we came out to this recording, my daughter got an email inviting her for an interview
Advice for New Students
00:11:38
Speaker
at university. This is a second petition. We're getting ready to send a student out to the RAS. It's our last one. We'll have the infamous empty nest by October when she goes, but thinking about new students going, what advice would you give to new students who are going to be arriving in the university context and how they're going to sort of live and work and be part of a Christian community? What would be your top things that you would offer?
00:12:01
Speaker
to a new student. Oh, wow. Where to start? Recently, we've been looking at Exodus as a church, and I just love the part where Moses says to the Lord, if you don't go with us, don't send us up from here. And I remember praying that as a fresh air, as I moved my stuff in, going up and down these stairs with all this luggage, and just saying to God,
00:12:29
Speaker
If you're not going with me, I am not doing this thing. But the wonderful news is that he does go with us. And I think that's a brilliant thing to remember for your daughter heading off as she is in her lectures, as she's getting to know new friends, as she's going to try out societies or whatever she spends her time doing in Freshers Week. The Lord is with her.
00:12:52
Speaker
And no part of uni culture has dropped off of his radar. She might have difficult conversations about areas of culture and questions. People might ask her about what she believes, but none of that escapes God's notice. I think I would definitely encourage them to have a look beforehand, have a look at what churches are in the city they're moving to, start having a think and having a pray about
00:13:22
Speaker
what family they might be part of because that will be really key source of support and community. Get in touch with the Christian Union, see what they're doing. It's important to know other students that are in the same context as you, trying to walk the way of Jesus in the same direction, in the same place. Yeah, and do a lot of praying.
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, I found... Well, the parents will be. We could go and... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. You want to be someone who is... It's the classic being in the world and not of it. You want to make good connections with people, find ways to make community, both with Christians and with those who aren't yet Christians, and not to be fearful of being different and knowing Jesus.
00:14:16
Speaker
knowing that, yeah, his spirit dwells in you loud. And this is why I remind my students all the time, like the spirit of the resurrected Jesus is living in you. That's crazy. But now off you go. Go off into your week, go into freshers week, go into that social this evening that you're a bit worried about or whatever, and know that he goes with you and goes before you. Yeah.
00:14:42
Speaker
That making connection piece that you said that I think is crucial, isn't it? Both for students, but also for folks in the workplace and other settings. You know, sometimes we can, I think, end up thinking we have to memorize clever four or five point plans and, you know, have whole strategies worked out. But it starts, as you say, with prayer, being connected with Jesus and then connecting with others. So this may sound like a really daft low level question, but sometimes I think those questions are the ones that are helpful.
00:15:06
Speaker
What are some of the ways that you found just practically to make connections? You know, because I think some of the people don't know how to do that. Christians always forgot that we spent our time just hanging out with others, other Christians and not connecting outwards. So just at the very root level, what are some of the ways that people can get better connected to their neighbors? I mean, obviously you're on campus, but I imagine much of what you might say would equally apply if you're in the workplace, moved to a new neighborhood.
Making Connections
00:15:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, totally. And this is something that God's been helping me to think more about in the last couple of weeks as well.
00:15:36
Speaker
And it's mostly for me been around remembering that I have other interests in my life that are shared interests with people that don't share my faith and then to kind of look into that. So, um, so for me, it looks like, uh, I love trail running and I discovered recently that there is an orienteering club that lives near me. And so I've gotten to know these, um, these people that believe different things, do different jobs during the day.
00:16:04
Speaker
Then we come together on a Wednesday night and run around trying to chase a map slightly pointlessly, but it's good fun. I think with students, there is so many ways to connect, particularly with all the different kinds of societies that there are to join. Think about what you love and then find other people that love that same thing. And already you're, you're starting kind of on a similar page. You've got that kind of connection. I think they,
00:16:32
Speaker
In terms of how to connect, one big thing is time. And the student world can be really busy. I know particularly with Durham students, they love to fill their calendars with all sorts of stuff and there's a sense of hurrying and rushing onto the next thing and being busy is kind of a sign of life, I suppose. But there's something so important about having time with people and committing to people and
00:17:02
Speaker
Maybe that is, you know, second year to have a house together and decides, oh, we're going to make Monday nights a commitment. We're going to eat together as a house and we're going to check in and see how everyone's doing. Or maybe it's, yeah, more intentionally going out and just having coffee with a friend or letting conversation run on. I think time is such an important thing and
00:17:27
Speaker
And while students might not have lots of money, they do have lots of time and it's flexible. Um, so that's a big thing. I think find something you love and find time with people. Um, and also just being human, I think in conversation, you know, you can come away from a conversation and think that was an amazing conversation. What was it that made that good conversation? It's often when you've had space to talk about yourself and your interests because the other person just asked you lots of good questions.
00:17:58
Speaker
And so what if we could be good conversation hosts? What if we could be people that connect well, even in a short conversation, because we've really asked good questions and not stayed on the surface level, but said, oh, particularly Precious Week, the same conversation every flipping day. What's your name? What do you study? Where are you from? What A levels do you blah, blah, blah? Why don't we take it a bit deeper? And that is a way of connecting that is really helpful. Oh, you study physics. Why have you chosen to study physics?
00:18:28
Speaker
Um, why did you choose to come to this university? What is it about hockey that you're so ingested in or crochet or whatever it is you're thinking? Even names Gavin's two favorite hobbies.
00:18:43
Speaker
Hockey and crazy at the same time. On a unicycle, yeah. We've got time for one more question. So we'll get through kind of a strange question your way, actually. Because sometimes when we're trying to talk about evangelism and inspiring people to evangelism, you often get some really amazing stories told about dramatic conversions and things. But that can be quite sort of disempowering for people who don't experience that regularly, and it can make them frightened of failure.
Redefining Evangelism Success
00:19:09
Speaker
How do we process failure? Should I hold a carol service in the halls? What if nobody comes? What if I try to talk to my friend and they ask a killer question and I don't know the answer and I feel like a failure? So how do we encourage people to be active in sharing their faith when that kind of lack of confidence is the problem? And great big stories about dramatic things happening make them feel terrified, not empowered. How do we process fear? How do we process what might be perceived as failure in evangelism?
00:19:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good question and a couple of thoughts on it. One is to think, well, what is failure and what is success here? As a student, you might be thinking, okay, if I get 70% and I get a first, that is success. But when it comes to, when it comes to evangelism, like, why is that 70%? What is, what does it mean to be successful?
00:20:05
Speaker
And if we define success by, wow, loads of people have become Christians through this CU event or through my conversations and my friendships. Well, I think we've got it wrong because we see in scripture that God is the one that saves. God is the only one that can change someone's heart and he can call his children home. I can't do anything to save someone else that is not in my power. I wasn't the one on the cross.
00:20:37
Speaker
what our task is, is to go and introduce people to Jesus and let him do that work in their hearts. And so I have been faithful, I have been successful if I have shown and said things that are true about Jesus to somebody. Sometimes I think, well, you know, it's even a success if someone understands the gospel properly and then decides
00:21:06
Speaker
but I don't believe that. If I've helped someone understand the gospel, that is a success. Both the responsibility for someone coming to know Jesus and the glory are not mine. The burden is not mine and the glory is not mine, it is God's. I love in 1 Corinthians 3 it says, Paul says,
00:21:33
Speaker
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth, which is brilliant. I think that's what she spares on. And then knowing that, having that freedom, we're free from thinking, what if this conversation flopped? What if I totally lose my reputation? What if we do an event and no one comes? Why are we not asking questions like, what if?
00:22:03
Speaker
this friend came to know the Lord and then, oh my goodness, that would be incredible. What if I said a question in this conversation and it totally opened it up and it didn't shut it down? What if we put on this event and there were so many seekers that came that the CU would have to leave to give up more seats for them?
Reflections on 1 Corinthians
00:22:24
Speaker
Why does what if always end up being a negative thing and not positive?
00:22:31
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. And the funny thing is, this must be a God thing, because I was thinking of, you know, as we wrap up, I was just thinking of remarking that I mean, I was reading 1 Corinthians 15. This morning, my morning reading was that lovely verse, I love that little bit, that last verse, where Paul says, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm at nothing move you always go yourself fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor and the Lord is not in vain.
00:22:55
Speaker
And so, you know, you don't always know how things play out. I've come across people who become Christians who actually talk to them and it was something that happened to them 20 years before. And I think, well, the person who shared Christ from 20 years before obviously doesn't know what happened, but God knows. And our task is to be faithful.
00:23:12
Speaker
Well, it's been an absolute pleasure talking with you. Just thank you for just your wit and your wisdom. And just yeah, just really excited about all that you're doing there in Durham. You know, we do we get involved in lots of university missions. And I just have so much respect for students and staff workers like yourself. You know, we come in and go out again, but you guys are there day in day out. And it's exciting. And God is at work.
00:23:34
Speaker
on campus so thank you for joining us it's been great to have you with us and we were back in two weeks time with another episode of a pep talk where again Gavin will be standing in so if you liked Gavin's doing his well if not quite as christy mare impression but standing in the christy while i occasionally were made rude comments about him will be more than the same in two weeks time so goodbye for all of us and have a wonderful fortnight