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9 Tom Moore of Next Gen Signs
70 Plays5 months ago
Tom has been making signs for 30 years, and has pushed his business from hand painting and chisels to plotters, cncs, and uv printers. We talked about the old way vs the new way, and all about the tech used for modern signs.
https://www.instagram.com/nextgensignsinc/
https://www.nextgensignsinc.com/
https://www.facebook.com/NextGenSigns
https://www.instagram.com/num_nums_tom/
Things of the week:
Tom: Shop local businesses
Al: All Sides Now bias-free news https://www.instagram.com/allsidesnow/
Jeff: This To That glue advice https://www.thistothat.com/
Patreon: http://patreon.com/digifabricators
Discord: https://discord.gg/hHp8Sv7vt4
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Digifabricators' and Hosts
00:00:12
Speaker
damn Hello and welcome to Digifabricators, the show where we learn how makers and artists use their computer-driven tools for fun, art, and profit.
00:00:23
Speaker
I'm your host, Jeff Stein, aka a weird guy, and with me is my talented but humble co-host, Al Schultz of New York Woodworks. Let's fire right into here with throw off the podcast disclaimer quick.
00:00:39
Speaker
Even though we pretend to be experts on the internet, I would like to point out that neither of us have any actual training and are just guys winging it in our shops and learning as we go. All advice provided is based on our personal experience and possibly inaccurate assumptions and is worth exactly what you pay for it.
00:00:58
Speaker
If listening to this show causes you to take out a loan to buy new and expensive digital tools, you may tell your spouse that it was our fault, but do so at your own risk.
Tom Moore's Journey in Signmaking
00:01:09
Speaker
Well, today's guest I get to introduce because he's a friend of mine.
00:01:14
Speaker
And seven or eight years ago, I knocked on the door of his business and he's been trying to get rid of me ever since. ah He has never passed up a good restaurant. He loves a good bourbon or a cigar an aficionado if you will so much to the point that he built a custom bar in his backyard um he is a sign manufacturer and he owns the company next gen signs incorporated he's a really good friend of mine please welcome tom moore how are we doing tom good how guys doing today great nice to meet you happy to have you here yeah
00:01:52
Speaker
So I'll just bump off. ah I mean, I'm interested in sign making history, ah like how it started, but just give us a quick thumbnail on how you started, how you got here, where you came from.
00:02:06
Speaker
you know, just a ah brief. This is Tom. Well, the well Tom started 30 years ago, 1995. I was working at UPS. My uncle had a sign shop since 1960.
00:02:19
Speaker
Everything was handmade, hand drawn, hand painted. um Started helping him out because he needed a hand. And from there, just took off. um Drug him into the digital age, which we're going to probably talk a lot about.
00:02:33
Speaker
um i remember starting with him with hand pounce patterns. You know, de didn't have a computer. Didn't know what a computer was. Didn't have a plotter. Didn't know what a plotter was. Didn't even have a router. We had chisels for carve signs.
00:02:47
Speaker
My... He was set in his ways. He did not want to go towards the future of where this industry went. So I took over from him and just grew this business to what it is today.
00:02:58
Speaker
um Started out 1,800 square feet. but Actually, i started in my garage after my uncle passed away. Single car, correct? Single car garage in front of my house with all his tools after he passed away.
00:03:12
Speaker
um And just moved into another shop, which is 1,800 square feet. And now we're sitting in 10,000 square foot shop with probably over $400,000 worth of equipment.
00:03:24
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. That's good. And you're running that for that's some upgrades. It's a little bit of an upgrade. Several employees. Yeah. I got ah three full-time guys, me and my wife is the you bookkeeper secretary.
00:03:41
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's just taken off. She's really cute. It's nice having her up front. Yeah. helps Helps with the customers. yeah don't get Don't piss her off though. You don't want to do that.
00:03:54
Speaker
when she When you owe money, she's calling you. yeah She's like an unleashed dog at that point.
Transition from Manual to Digital Tools
00:04:00
Speaker
yeah so What kind of digital equipment do you use ah in your day-to-day?
00:04:05
Speaker
Everything. um We have oh two cut two cut plotters. We have two print plotters. One's a thermal.
00:04:15
Speaker
One's inkjet. We have a UV printer. We have what the laptop is sitting on is a laser engraver. We have a CNC machine. We have, now we have a digital shear machine.
00:04:28
Speaker
We have a laminator. And that's all the digital stuff we have. As far as programs, I've had, I have Corel. I have Omega.
00:04:40
Speaker
I have Aspire, the good one. Flexi, Flexi sign. um Adobe illustrator. There's all the programs I run. My favorite one that I use the most is the sign program because I started with that program when it was called Casmate.
00:04:57
Speaker
um That was back 1998. I drug my uncle into getting a computer and a plotter. He's like, he did not want to do it. He... dead set against it it's like we don't need it it's not the technology is not there i'm like yeah but we got to start somewhere so we bought a the old you know the old big giant monitors are 10 foot deep and three foot wide and uh we got casme very simple type detects could do a few things in it um we had a 36 inch plotter and we started cutting vinyl and we realized that uh
00:05:34
Speaker
Once he got it, he realized, hey, this is where the future the sign industry is going. Because like I said, when I started with him in 95, we used to draw all our stuff on paper, pounce it, pounce it onto a sign.
00:05:48
Speaker
What's pouncing? Pouncing is when you to have ah a drawing paper and you take a little its little tiny wheel you roll around, puts these little tiny microscopic holes in it. We would hold it up, tape it up on the truck or on a sign, pounce it with a chalk truck thing, pull it off.
00:06:00
Speaker
You draw it on the truck, then you take a brush, I got brushes out there. My uncle had from 1940 and we would just hand paint and paint everything. Then we realized, well, we got of and a vinyl plotter.
00:06:12
Speaker
Now we can cut vinyl because a lot of people back in the day with trucks didn't care if it was hand painted. would keep a truck for 20 years. Nowadays, people get rid of a truck three, five years. They lease it.
00:06:23
Speaker
So vinyl became, well, you can make it on vinyl, and put it on, last three, four years, take it off like it wasn't even there. We started making patterns with it instead of drawing everything on by hand. Now we were drawing it on the computer.
00:06:36
Speaker
um My uncle still hated it some at some things, especially like kerning with computer-generated fonts. Sometimes you have to tighten up an A next to a P because it the space, because of the A at an angle and the P's on the top, you would have this big gap on the computer.
00:06:51
Speaker
When you're doing it by hand, you learn that stuff. The kerning's got to be a little bit tighter. But the program's got to that point now where you can mess with kerning and you can do all that stuff. um So it took them a little while to get used to that.
00:07:04
Speaker
But then once we did that, then it moved on to the next thing. I'm like, hey, instead hand carving signs with a chisel, how about we buy a plunge router? He's like, right I guess. yeah you know it It progressed from there. I mean, unfortunately, he passed away before – before He saw full tech before you saw full tech. I mean, i started doing raps like the year before he passed away. he didn't know what rap material was and how do you bend it around a fender.
00:07:33
Speaker
But he was also his late seventies and wasn't, you know, a very healthy at that point. But, um, if he saw what we were doing now today with the digital stuff, I think it would blow his mind.
00:07:46
Speaker
Um, One of his competitors, which ended up after he passed away, I started working with one of his competitors. They day started the sign business together in 1962. They went their separate ways.
00:07:59
Speaker
He couldn't hand paint, so he was more... a digital fabricator. He had a Gerber and he had Omega. So he knew more about the digital aspect of it.
00:08:11
Speaker
And when I bought him, i ended up buying him out. He actually ended up making amends with my uncle right before he passed away. um I started working for him and then he comes here now and he's blown away by what we do.
00:08:25
Speaker
And he was already in the digital field and he was just, he's just like, I can't believe what you're doing these days. You know, with the things we have, you know, I bought a laser engraver and I'm not knocking makers or anything like that. I bought a laser engravers. It's almost 10 years old. I think I had the first one in my area and we bought it because it was a tool.
00:08:44
Speaker
Um, for making signs and making patterns and making things. And then, you know, once the maker community got a hold of the laser engraver, it took off. you know You know, every go for it took off. Everybody's got a laser engraver now. Same with C&Cs, you know, not everybody had one because it it's new technology, expensive technology.
00:09:04
Speaker
But it's technology. I think in any industry, you have to accept the technology. if you want to better improve and if you want to move forward with your business. I think if you sit back and let technology take off, it gets too far ahead of you and you've got to keep up with it.
00:09:23
Speaker
Yeah.
AI in Design: Limitations and Possibilities
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, i'm I'm just not sure what I need to keep up with next to stay ahead of things. that' That's the biggest problem. Unfortunately, i think AI has a lot to do with that.
00:09:38
Speaker
um I don't know that AI in its current forms are is going to last for long, but... but I think that the current day I will design the next generation of AI that will actually end up, you know, generating things for us. You know, you know, I, I, there's, there's Star Trek where you, you speak out and go, Hey, computer, um make me, make, make me a thing and go, here's the thing in the freaking drawer for you waiting.
00:10:12
Speaker
And, you know I think we're kind of leaning in that direction where we can ask AI to model us an object, and then we're missing some integration to pass it on to the 3D printer. But I don't think we're that far down the road from this.
00:10:28
Speaker
there's ah There's a really good – I don't want to promote – Joe Rogan's podcast, but there's a very good interview going on right now with a gentleman. His name is Alexander Wang, and he is the kid who started ah the scale AI, which is one of the largest AI systems on the planet. As matter of fact he was 19 when he started it, and he was a billionaire at 24.
00:10:54
Speaker
He's the youngest self-made billionaire on the planet. But there is a lot, I've actually re-listened to the podcast a couple of times because there's so much information on what it is and what it isn't.
00:11:07
Speaker
And ah and i I've learned several things like, oh I thought this was some magic genie in a bottle that was going to, you know, T1 Terminator or us in the next 10 years. And it's not.
00:11:18
Speaker
Yeah. so it But it is a system that needs to be learned and it needs to be harnessed, if you will. you know Right. ah But my my thoughts on AI, um and I see it a lot, I get people send me something they i AI generated. Like, can you build this sign? I'm like, that's impossible.
00:11:40
Speaker
yeah What you're sending me, it's an AI it's an ai generated image. I physically can't build that. It's impossible. and And I think that's the bad thing about AI. Yeah. It creates things that it's not real world. You can't manufacture or make it in the real world.
00:11:58
Speaker
Does it help with design in like my industry? Yeah, i've I've used it. I type in, I have a customer come in and they say, hey, I need a... I want a logo with a chicken and an apple crate, an apple crate with, you know, this in it. And I type that in and it brings up a relatively good image, but then I can take that idea and make my own off of that idea that works for me and works for the digital things I have. Cause I've, I've done that and printed it on my printer.
00:12:30
Speaker
And it comes out. Pixelated or there's an arm missing. Or places a foot. like Where a hand should be. i did idea and like why Why is there foot over here? there's an extra Bear's got an extra foot. yeah But that's AI. But but it gives me...
00:12:45
Speaker
a starting point of a logo or a base that I then can create off of that. That's really, you can trace off of that and get something solid that you can actually work with. That works and and looks good.
00:13:00
Speaker
The key here that I'm hearing is that he didn't have to spend three hours to draw an idea that a client may or may not like. He spent three minutes.
Digital Tools and Design Efficiency
00:13:08
Speaker
Is this what you're looking for? And then he can move forward with that. And he didn't waste half a day.
00:13:13
Speaker
Yeah, I've done that 100. I mean, back in the day, we used to do that when we hand drew stuff, we would hand draw things and hand draw logos. and And they look at it like, no, we got to start over. And you're sitting there going like, hey. And that's the other bad.
00:13:24
Speaker
that's That's what I think is good about the digital thing is you can generate a lot of stuff. And now in today's world, you you can just go online and look at logos and ideas.
00:13:36
Speaker
I'm not saying you take somebody's logo. the that to me is probably one of the worst things you could do, but you can get ideas and build off of those ideas in the, in the digital world. Back then, you know, you're sitting in a basement with a pencil and you're like, I need to come up with a logo.
00:13:55
Speaker
You know, I can go in lines and put in lawn mowing logos and you get 10 of them. 10,000 of them. yeah Yeah. And you can just draw inspiration. And I think that helps a lot with the digital world and the digital marketing and and and getting and generating ideas.
00:14:12
Speaker
It definitely helps. Yeah. You know what else is kind of interesting is hearing, hearing Tom who I've talked to for the last 10 years almost, but like we often say like in the maker community, not that Tom's not in the maker community, but in we'll have a discussion about the maker. yeah Yeah. But in the maker community, we have always said that, you know, like, Oh, C and C's aren't real woodworking.
00:14:36
Speaker
Well, in the last five minutes, we heard that like his uncle was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no vinyl planters. That's not sign making. You got hand paint it. You got to, you know, hand carve it with a chisel. So, so all industries go through this iteration as things get better and faster or more capable, you know? Yeah. It's the same as saying back then they used to use a hand saw to cut.
00:14:58
Speaker
Right. i would yeah You know, cyclists all came out. Everybody didn't say, Oh, now you're not cutting the wood by hand anymore. So it's not hand cut bullshit. Yeah. It's the same thing. yeah yeah We've seen see our our signs now, but it's more efficient.
00:15:14
Speaker
It's cleaner. you still have to People don't understand, oh you just push a button. Yeah, well, that button to push that button, it took four hours to get that file the way it needs to be in order to push that button to get out a good result on the end.
00:15:27
Speaker
yeah And they don't see that part. yeah and well you there's There's also the perspective. I mean, I can, I can understand where people get a perspective like this because say that you've been working in an industry, say that you've been making signs for the last 30 years of your life. You're a professional. You've done this hand carved hand painted stuff for the last 30 years.
00:15:53
Speaker
And then suddenly somebody just comes in and it looks like they just push a button and it just magically happens. All the 30 years of experience and hard work and you have perfected your craft doing it by hand for the last 30 years.
00:16:09
Speaker
And somebody comes in and disrupts it and points out that your skills are no longer relevant in this world. And you're going to want to push back on that. It's I think I mean, I think an intelligent person would say, OK, well, I guess it's time to move forward with the world. But if you've been doing that and that's the skill you've perfected in the last 30 years.
00:16:33
Speaker
and you're being told that you are no longer relevant, your skills are no longer useful, then i think it's kind of natural to push back against that technology and say, well, no, but you're not doing it right. You're cheating.
00:16:46
Speaker
Well, I mean, I understand why you feel that way. Because you've been... so It's not cheating, though. Well, it feels like cheating. no it does. I understand that because i've been I basically started that way.
00:17:02
Speaker
But my, I look at it as it's making my job easier. I can do better things. I can do more things, more more quality things. I can push the envelope of stuff that I couldn't do by hand, you know?
00:17:15
Speaker
Right. But you didn't spend 35 years doing it the old way.
00:17:21
Speaker
and but That's where you get into a rut and you, this is the right way to do things. Yeah. And then yeah when, when somebody just comes in and says, yeah, but the machine can do all that part for you. The part that you've worked so hard at learning these skills, those skills, the the computer take over those part. You can just go to design now. And they're like, but this is the whole job.
00:17:44
Speaker
Yeah. But you know what? And I'll say this. I've made this observation about Tom and his business. And it's very easy to see in this business because I know and we've all seen people who buy a vinyl cutter, you know, U.S. cutter.
00:18:00
Speaker
I don't know if that's an actual brand. I might own that one. Yeah. But you know what? ah you know I can buy a vinyl cutter and I can go to dafont.com and get a letter, you know a font, and I can write, keep keep out and yeah put it on and put it on a sign.
00:18:19
Speaker
And I can look at that sign and it says, keep out. But the 30 years experience that my gentleman friend next to me has here, he mentioned kerning.
00:18:30
Speaker
He mentioned things like that. One of the things that Tom does is make it so when you look at one of his signs, and I'm doing air quotes, you don't see his sign because it's perfect and it makes sense.
00:18:43
Speaker
Our brain collects the information and moves on. If the letter's off, then your brain stops and goes, something doesn't look right here. That's what 30 years experience gets you. well that is that Well, that's what 30 years experience of doing it by hand is now you have a tool that makes it easier.
00:19:01
Speaker
But you still have to, like, we are really big with, we do a lot of fire trucks, lot of ambulances stuff like that, which we're all hand done. um and Guys that do them today, they don't make them look like fire trucks. My experience of doing it by hand, I know what it's supposed to look like.
00:19:20
Speaker
The hand-turned leaf, gold leaf. And when you get somebody that just buys a plotter and a printer and all that stuff, they don't know what it's supposed to look like. Right. The end result, it doesn't look like a fire truck.
00:19:32
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Right. So it's just ah it's another tool. Right. and And but you got to have these tools. It just makes life easier. um And like you you were saying earlier, Jeff, that it's the right, you think it's the right way to do it after doing it in 30 years.
00:19:48
Speaker
There's always a right way, but there's a different way that's a better way. thats That's the way i look at technology. agree with you, but I'm just you know throwing out the viewpoint as somebody who's done it in one way for 30 years. i can I can understand why they would feel like the new way cheating.
00:20:09
Speaker
I mean, and I understand why every time there's an advance in technology – The old guys have been doing it the old way for so long. There's always a solid resistance from the old guys who've been doing it the old way.
00:20:25
Speaker
And psychologically, it makes sense. It's like yeah yeah they don't want they don't want to be told that the skills they've perfected for 30, 40 years are irrelevant now because the tool takes care of that part.
00:20:37
Speaker
They don't want to hear that but is shit. But it's not. their their Their skills... Or being used in a different way. That's what I was saying earlier. like Right. you know you You still have to take those skills because digital is not perfect.
00:20:51
Speaker
You still have to have those skills on what things are supposed to look like. And digitally all the time, it doesn't look great. du That's what I was saying about AI. You know you can put in um i need a foot on a chicken, and you know whatever, put a hat on, and but then it's got six hats on it and an extra leg. Exactly.
00:21:08
Speaker
it's digital but if you know what it's what you're doing what you want it to look like they're just tools they're all just tools to me and to me it's like you can choose whichever two legs look the best and just erase the other four yeah yeah and with and with like the way that vinyl went in the music industry like vinyl is expensive now and it's a collector you know it's a collectible thing um tom has some some he's got memorabilia from all third you know all his ah family and and other businesses and other places. like
00:21:39
Speaker
one of the One of the most amazing signs that i that I've ever seen Tom have is sandblasted signs. Wooden sandblasted signs before C&Cs.
00:21:51
Speaker
Pattern. you pattern it out i'm assuming it's correct yeah you you would cut a mask it's like a rubber mask you cut it by hand you lay it on there and wherever the mask was the sand would just bounce off it's like a rubbery stuff you're you know carve all around it you don't even see anybody doing you can but you can't make that you can't make that with a cnc i don't care how good your software is you can get close you can get really close okay can you do that with vinyl now Well, we there is now there is a mass that you can put in a plotter.
00:22:22
Speaker
Yes. Okay. You can put it in a plotter. You have to use a different knife. like ah most Most plotters will cut with a 45-degree knife. When you go up to rubber matting, it's little bit thicker, so you use a 60-degree knife and you can cut through. Yeah, it's a sandblast mass, but it's on a roll now. Okay. If you make tool paths in your program, you just put it in there It cut, we weed it, tape it just like we were talking about earlier, put it on the sign.
00:22:49
Speaker
we've We've done a few. I think the last time we used our sandblaster was probably seven years ago. yeah Yeah. But it also it also makes those it it makes those processes specialized now.
00:23:03
Speaker
like You get more form. Yeah. like you can like what's What's the difference between ah vinyl imaging a door and hand painting a door? who What's the price difference between that now?
00:23:14
Speaker
you know ah jewish cause no no you know it's You cut your time down. That's what your tools are for. And that's why tools digital tools are great. It's about being more efficient.
00:23:25
Speaker
um I can put it a computer, print it, plot it, and you go stick it on the window where you we would have to go down there and draw it. paint it you're taught i mean and you can repeat it for five vehicles you can put the same logo on all five vehicles instead of hand painting them and you're gonna have five different logos
00:23:44
Speaker
i mean i'm i'm glad the way digital stuff has gone um it just helps our process a lot better, and a lot easier, more efficient. And like I said, I mean, I understand your point where people it is hard to say, yeah, that was my skill doing it that way 30 years.
00:24:00
Speaker
But I also feel those are the guys that are getting left behind because they don't want to change. And I feel like that every day. I like every day in this shop with all these tools and equipment. I feel if you're not learning something every day, you shouldn't be and in this industry.
00:24:14
Speaker
You know, you should be learning. You should be advancing. It only makes you a better businessman, a better maker. If you want to call, call me a maker or not call me a maker.
00:24:29
Speaker
You create things that were not there before. That's. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very inclusive term. Well, I mean, I think somebody like me gets looked upon a little bit different in maker community because I have a full-time business
Hobbyists vs. Businesses in the Maker World
00:24:43
Speaker
and a shop. So I'm a business. I'm not a maker. But I feel sometimes i'm like i make I can make just about anything anything you want me to make. So I feel like I'm a maker. I make signs every day. I make...
00:24:53
Speaker
we make plaques, we make, and we make stuff, but you know, when it's a full time business and that's what you rely on. Sometimes I think people look at it. Well, you you started out with just a business.
00:25:03
Speaker
No, I started out making things, you know, it's just took off. Well, there, there's no problem with referring to you as a maker, but you, you may feel like you don't quite belong in the maker community.
00:25:21
Speaker
And that's because most of the maker community is focused on making content about the entertaining shit that they're doing in their shop.
00:25:33
Speaker
That's where I have a, that's where I have a, and he's making money. well I'm making money off the product. Makers are making money off. the social media and their videos and how they're doing things. I'm trying to cross that bridge.
00:25:45
Speaker
It's just hard when I'm trying to run a business to support four guys, and my wife, to set up a camera. And, and, and a lot of times I think if we had a camera in here and people saw the way we, our processes were, they would be blown away, but I don't have time for a hundred percent.
00:26:01
Speaker
I don't have fucking a time. No. Well, yeah that's where you need like a teenage daughter to come in. And, follow you around the shop with her camera because I've seen, see that's, that's really, i think the crux of why the maker community seems to be so hobby and make stuff for fun oriented is because the people who are grinding their ass off, making things for business day in and day out,
00:26:35
Speaker
have got better things to do. They're already running a business. They're trying to run a website. They're trying to run their business, trying to manage the customers, trying to deal with this and that and the supplies. And they haven't got time for this shit.
00:26:49
Speaker
That's why you don't see as many of the businesses thrive as much on the social media. But ah this is ah bit of a tangent for making, but it's relevant is I had my driveway done last summer.
00:27:05
Speaker
by a very family organization where there's this one guy who's been doing blacktop for like 45 years and he's got ah cousins and nephews and kids and what have you is running around and it's a big family organization and about eight of them show up to do your driveway and they're all related in some way versus marriage or whatever.
00:27:31
Speaker
But then his daughter, his daughter was like 19 years old and she had some jobs that she had to do to work on the driveway.
00:27:41
Speaker
But when she wasn't specifically doing driveway stuff, she was running around with her phone, capturing angles and moments of them doing the job.
00:27:54
Speaker
And then she was the one that was, the least needed on the team to actually be doing the heavy work. So they had her doing, and and and she's the closest one to a teenager that understands social media.
00:28:08
Speaker
So she was, she was capturing some footage. ah She was going home and doing the editing. And I saw on their YouTube and their Tik TOK that there was a real,
00:28:23
Speaker
it was a 60 second reel of them doing my driveway came out a few days after they finished my driveway. And sometimes it's it's just not something that you can do as the business owner.
00:28:36
Speaker
But maybe if that's something you really want to try to push for, if you think that you could use more business and that being on the social media would drive that business to you, then maybe finding yourself an elder teenager person to do that content for you. I mean, it might even be worth having them as a part-time employee to follow me around, capture footage, edit reels, post stuff of what we're doing. You show the process, watch me do a couple of bits on the computer, watch it coming out on the plot or watch it getting plastered on the side of the fire truck and some good glamor shots. Here's your reel, but
00:29:21
Speaker
you kind of need to almost have somebody to do that because you've got better shit to do than play with the camera. I just found a guy. If you looked at my, my social media recently, he's been, he's, he owns a drone business and he's been coming in and doing some of that stuff for me.
00:29:37
Speaker
And, uh, He captures stuff that i I'm like, yeah, that's fucking great. But I would have never during my big day. I don't have time to think about capturing that stuff because trying to keep three guys going. and But he captures stuff. I'm like, this is amazing. Maybe I should hire him. fire Hire somebody more full time because he would take it home.
00:29:54
Speaker
I go home at night. I'm done or I'm on the computer doing estimates and looking at invoices. So I don't have time to go home and do that posting and edit, edit, edit all that stuff. I could.
00:30:06
Speaker
But at the end of the day, sometimes you just want to go home and not even think about running your business for the past 10 hours. you know But he came in, and there was some new stuff on our Instagram where he's done some reels and drone footage and put it together. And it comes out great.
00:30:20
Speaker
um And he butre we're talking about one of my guys is 20. That's here. We're talking about he might train him. get but I'll buy the equipment.
00:30:33
Speaker
a drone by the cameras. We're talking about training him because he's here all the time. And he's the guy, and the um not on the bottom, but he's the guy that he can do anything. Like he'll help the guy in the fab room, but he'll also be out here doing vinyl and they'll go out on an install. So he's an all around like shop guy. He could do anything.
00:30:53
Speaker
And I think adding that to his plate and at the end of the day, he puts it together and I approve it. We put it online. I think that's where we're going to go with that because I would like to, I don't know if growing my social media presence would help the business
Social Media's Role in Business Growth
00:31:06
Speaker
or not.
00:31:06
Speaker
um I know it's helped a little bit, but I also don't have – I'm not Al Schultz. I don't have 3,000 followers. I'm not even a third of that.
00:31:19
Speaker
ah that I don't know. don't know. Al Schultz has 3,000 followers. I know number says 3,000, but I don't think it's 3,000. and No, but i'm saying I'm saying, you know, it probably would help um growing.
00:31:34
Speaker
I think it would push us to other areas. but i mean, we cover a big spread now, but... It's definitely a portfolio. I would love to get into more of that and then ship stuff to, like, the plaques and the custom trophies we make and...
00:31:49
Speaker
I don't know if that would help that or not. I'm not really sure. Well, i just growing followers. i don't know it would help. I keep, I keep seeing stuff. I saw somebody posting on Reddit last week and they were saying that,
00:32:04
Speaker
they're their Their business had somewhat, they'd always been really busy, but for the past few years, their business has kind of slacked off and things were getting kind of slow and kind of quiet.
00:32:15
Speaker
And they couldn't figure out why that was happening to them when some of the other businesses in the area were certainly still thriving. And then somebody pointed out to them, whether was their teenage kid or something pointed out to them that A lot of people these days are going on to these places like you know Facebook or Instagram, and they're literally searching on there to find people that do the things for them.
00:32:43
Speaker
And if they find you on Facebook and they see cool reels of you plotting this stuff out and putting it on the cars and putting it on the trucks and making the signs and they're like, oh, cool. That's neat. I like the way that works.
00:33:01
Speaker
That's the guy I want to hire. And the guy whose name is in the phone book gets completely overlooked because a lot of the younger people and keep in mind,
00:33:11
Speaker
Keep in mind younger people that shop on social media to find people. Those younger people are now 25 years old and spending real adult money.
00:33:26
Speaker
So that's like, that's the same way as we, we changed our lettering style on vehicles back in the day. you know You would want to put your name on there, telephone number, email, website, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:33:39
Speaker
Now these days, I cut even my own vehicle. says next-gen signs. cause You don't want to know what? Everybody's got that little computer in their pocket, especially young people. They see it, they're going it.
00:33:52
Speaker
I don't even put phone numbers on anything anymore because I find myself doing the same thing. When I'm away and I pass by a cool restaurant, i'm like, oh, shit, what's that name in that restaurant? Google it quick. Now I know...
00:34:02
Speaker
When they're open, where they are located, their phone number, what they had to eat this morning. Yeah. Reserve the table. So yeah, I can see it. It's definitely changing that way. Cause I still have guys coming here, old school guys. They want to put a laundry list of stuff on the side of their truck. mean, you got two seconds to read that thing going down the road and nobody's reading anymore.
00:34:20
Speaker
People are screenshotting and they're Googling you. Less is more, you know? And I, and I see that what you're saying about that aspect of that of, Yeah, you know younger generation, they're not writing down somebody's phone number.
00:34:34
Speaker
No, they're not writing down the phone number. They're saving screenshot. You're going online, they're like, oh, this guy does cool shit. This guy, you know, yeah. There's some stuff you still want on the side of the truck because you want people to know certain things.
00:34:48
Speaker
It's like if you put your freaking license number underneath your thing, that tells people that you're licensed and insured and that gives them the confidence that, I mean, that's information you want them to have right up front. Like I'm licensed, put my license number on there just because that proves that,
00:35:07
Speaker
I'm a licensed plumber or whatever the hell electrician you're doing. But the phone number, no. I mean, yeah, they're just going to look at the name. They're going to type it into their little Google bar or they're going to go. Websites are obsolete. even Even these guys now would, I got a couple of clients that love QR codes.
00:35:27
Speaker
I'm like, you could drive me down the road. What are they going to drive up behind you try to get a QR code? I don't, you know, we're not in an area where, you're in the country. You know, most of these trucks are parked up long driveways, like contractors or, or whatever. You're not on a city. You're not New York city where people are walking by and they can scan a QR code. I'm like, you guys are wasting your valuable space on a vehicle.
00:35:50
Speaker
um If, if you were in New York city or Los Angeles and it's simple for somebody with a QR code when you're walking by, but I guess as there's a time and place for some of that stuff. Like you said, right information that you can put on a vehicle and not put on a vehicle.
00:36:05
Speaker
um But but yeah nobody's going to take it nobody's going to pick take a picture of that code at 60 miles an hour on the side of the freeway. I mean, that's just not going to happen. not go to happen And I don't want I don't want to code on the table at the restaurant instead of a menu either.
00:36:23
Speaker
Me neither. Just stand Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that needs to die. That needs to die. Just, just print the goddamn menu. It costs, I mean, you've got a, you've got a little tiny laser printer in your shot in your office. Anyway, you paid $300 for it. You print your new fricking menus. If you change the price every week, who cares? It's a couple sheets of paper and some toner, you know?
00:36:49
Speaker
Yep. i Well, that's where that's where technology, like, yeah, you know, the whole digital technology has changed things. It's... it's made people totally think about things differently. You know, especially with your phone.
00:37:01
Speaker
It's just crazy what phones can do. Even now, the editing software on some these phones, you want to get rid of a shadow, fucking draw a circle around it and hit delete shadow. We want to get rid of a person in the background. It's just crazy.
00:37:13
Speaker
And that's where I think any business that's not striving to change digitally and keep up with technology is going to fail ah eventually because, know, It's just so different than back 30
Efficiency and Simplicity in Design
00:37:25
Speaker
years ago. Like i said, i every it's crazy how we used to hand paint everything.
00:37:31
Speaker
Right. And it took all damn day. Yeah, we used to do one, two trucks a week. Now we do 15 trucks a day sometimes. i mean Exactly. But it's print and repeat. I mean, sometimes they're through the same three trucks.
00:37:45
Speaker
But I can print all three in an hour. My guys can weed tape it, clean them, prep them, they're out the door. It's not like, all right, we got to put this layer on and paint it because we got to wait till tomorrow till the paint dries so we can put the next layer on it. You know, it's it's definitely helped.
00:37:58
Speaker
um Do I miss some of that hand stuff? Yeah.
00:38:05
Speaker
It's not... Everybody... That's the other bad thing about oh but digital stuff is... with the new software and new programs, everybody thinks you got to put a drop shadow, an outline, a fade, ah a glow around. And it just, it's too much.
00:38:22
Speaker
Less is more when it comes to this. That's what I miss about with painting stuff is you couldn't do all that stuff. Yeah. Number one, you didn't have the time to do it. Number two, the customers didn't want to pay for all that stuff.
00:38:32
Speaker
and But you get these guys that create these things that are just mind-blowing. Then it goes down to road you're like what the hell did I say? Because they took every function they had in that design software and applied it to that letter. And it's like, no.
00:38:45
Speaker
no that's what Now you can't read it in the and the third of a second is as that truck goes flashing by the other direction. yeah With all this technology and all this advancement and all this capability, we seem to have forgotten that the weakest link is the human mind.
00:39:03
Speaker
We can't process information visually and mentally as fast as digital can create. yeah So to Tom's point, the more complicated and busy a sign gets, your brain just turns off.
00:39:16
Speaker
you You just don't even see it. Right. you're You're looking at it as art. You're no longer reading it. yeah Correct. You know, it got got too busy and now it's a Jackson Pollock painting and you're is you enjoying the artwork, but you're no longer reading the information that the sign was meant to convey. And well that's that's some signs are meant to convey information, you know? yeah yeah That's the problem with today's software. just Yeah, it just makes things too easy to add and add and add. It's like you got to stop adding it. And my uncle was always big on that. He always would say less is more.
00:39:51
Speaker
um Keep it simple. you know you don't It's just got to look good and get the message across. And like I said, these machines definitely make it easier, but it makes it too easy to add all that unnecessary stuff.
00:40:04
Speaker
Which is interesting. why do i mean Why do you think we do things like add all this stuff? It's ah it's a very good point because... the essence of design, like furniture design, whether it be, ah you know, post-war or mid-century modern or whatever, but the essence of design is to design a thing, either, um, sketch or actually build it.
00:40:29
Speaker
And then as the maker, you look at it and say, what can I take away from this and reduce it to its simplest, purest form? Uh,
00:40:41
Speaker
petccido David Picciuto is very big on this process. um So while we're we're building equipment to complicate it more, the design process becomes less and less or minimalized.
00:40:55
Speaker
Minimalized? excuse me, minimized, minimize minute, minimal. Like in other words, you don't need like, even in a piece of, furniture even in a piece of furniture, do you need that arch there?
00:41:06
Speaker
Do you need the angle here? You know, like, and kinda, uh, uh, four eyes furniture is another one. You know, you watch his design cause he, he, he's another one. He's a good one that videos beginning to end the whole process.
00:41:21
Speaker
yeah So you start with the idea And then you start with the, rend the, as he renders it down and then you end up at the end, you get the glamor shot and it's like, oh yeah, you didn't need that curve. You didn't need that leg that way or anything. And the essence of design is minimalizing things down to what do you need it to do?
00:41:43
Speaker
And does it look good doing it? Yeah. You know, Tom needs to design signs that look good, give the information the customer needs to give and they are like his signs are timeless like like the the the sign you did for gent wood products up the road here um well i'll have him send you a picture of it for the thumbnail um it just is a piece of artwork but it's exactly what it needs it's the company name it's you can look at the sign and you know what that company does you don't even have to look off the road and see that it's a sawmill you know um
00:42:25
Speaker
But it's not a bunch of there's not a bunch of things going on. You know, it's, it's ah minimalist is not, that sounds like it's inexpensive or cheap. And that's not what I'm trying to say. It's, it's, it's, it's minimalistic for design, not in equality.
00:42:45
Speaker
Well, and it's like we were talking about earlier. It's you look at it and your brain doesn't have to figure out what it is. Your brain just knows what it is because it looks right. It feels right. It flows right. and the information is projected correctly.
00:42:57
Speaker
Whereas, yeah, you could have done branches and trees and trucks hauling. Like we we all have, we Tom and I have friends who have business. right We have friends, a few. There's one or two of them That's news to me. Yeah, we have a we have acquaintances who put imaging on their vehicles.
00:43:17
Speaker
And it's, I felt, I was guilty of it. My first landscape company my truck said snow plowing, fall cleanup, spring cleanup, fertilizing, mowing, bagging, leaf cleanup, uh, tree and septic systems, you know, ah don't have to live.
00:43:38
Speaker
i stuff Yeah. So you spend more time just messing the side of your truck up and and I'm sorry, trucks are $80,000 now, you know?
00:43:48
Speaker
So the, the, Less is more, like Tom is saying. I'm trying to reiterate what he's saying, but I'm trying to give examples of how it actually works. My point is we see it every day, and the reason we don't think about it is because it works. yeah And that that's what makes a sign maker maker.
00:44:09
Speaker
Maker's in the word. Yeah, yeah.
00:44:13
Speaker
versus someone who bought a Glowforge or bought a CNC or bought a plotter. yeah You know what I mean? That's, right again, you can't, you can't that 30 years, don't throw that 30 years away, you know, your experience. That's, I think, where things are going sideways here is the fact that the the cost of some of these machines has come down to the point where it's a reasonable investment for some people.
00:44:41
Speaker
And the bar for entry into plotting something and sticking it on a vehicle, the, the, the bar for entry is fairly low.
Digital Tools Accessibility and Industry Impact
00:44:52
Speaker
It's something you can just jump into on your own with no experience, no knowledge and, Specifically, experience with design. i was going to say this is – You can jump in and use these machines and have no idea what design is, what kerning is, what – I mean somebody can just buy a plotter and say, I want to put a sign on a fire truck, and they're going to pick Comic Sans, and going to look like shit. pay Hang on. I use Comic Sans.
00:45:28
Speaker
Take a note. No more common sense. Yeah, but you know what? you To your point, you made a good point. Yeah, you can get in there and you can do that. And you know what? I did it. I have a plotter. I don't use it. I'm actually waiting for him to get one out of storage that's 15 years old. i'm going to buy a good quality machine from him eventually.
00:45:45
Speaker
But there is a difference between... Like, yeah, you can buy that plotter and you can letter her that fire truck, but they're not going to come back to you next year for that again because you you're not going to do it right. Just because you buy a football, which you can get at Walmart, doesn't mean you're going to play in the NFL.
00:46:02
Speaker
but but i mean i mean In the same aspect, that it's the same as, like like Jeff was saying, everything all this cost of these things have come down to what are affordable. And you buy them, it doesn't mean... Have they? No, not that.
00:46:18
Speaker
ah That's my point. These prices haven't come down. No, but but what I was trying to get at is it's the same as, yeah, you can buy this stuff. It doesn't make you a sign maker. That 30 years of experience makes you a sign maker. Just like a guy can go buy circular saw at Lowe's and put carpenter on the side of his truck.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah. Doesn't mean he's ah he's a carpenter because he just bought a saw. Right. No. Exactly. And that's that's where technology has changed a lot that because it's also getting cheaper, the stuff to build. Because, you know, when Laser of Grave Versus came out, mine sitting here that sitting at the Lace I got 10 years ago was $30,000.
00:46:54
Speaker
thirty thirty thousand dollars But now you can go buy a Glowforge for $2,000 or $3,000. And how much was that little 60-watt tiny thing you had? Probably cost more than this one when it was new.
00:47:04
Speaker
Which one is that? The little epilogue thing you had way back when? Yeah, that was ridiculous. and it was Tiny. It was wasn't even a size of a Glowforge. It was probably $40,000. Yeah, and and well, that's the thing. I mean, my 56-inch plotter, it's a Graftech. It's well-known plotter.
00:47:22
Speaker
That's $9,000, but you can buy a Cricut. i don't even know how much, probably like $1,500. Does that make you a side person? No. Crickets are a couple of hundred. water Yeah, yeah.
00:47:33
Speaker
Crickets are a couple hundred. Are they really? Well, they're looking pretty. Yeah, yeah. they're They're the size of an inkjet printer. So, I mean, you're feeding standard size eight by eleven sheets of paper, I mean, vinyl through it.
00:47:45
Speaker
So, I mean, it's not – You're not doing 36 inch anything on it, but I mean, if you can simplify your design to fit on eight by 11 sheets, you can spend like a couple hundred dollars at Walmart for a cricket and be pushing out vinyl.
00:48:00
Speaker
I mean, good for them. I mean, good. I mean, good for that. I mean, I, I love to see people buy that stuff and be creative, but that doesn't make, it goes back to you with the 30 years of experience. Um, I'm a side guy with the tools.
00:48:14
Speaker
you ready You're a crafter with the same tools, but not really. And I'm not knocking them, but that's how digital things have become because you can the prices have come down so much.
00:48:25
Speaker
I remember like our first program we bought was KazMate. oh you had to have a dongle for it so nobody else can use it. And it cost $5,000, you know? And you had a CD and a dongle. You could only run that thing if that dongle was plugged into the computer. It was $5,000, you know?
00:48:42
Speaker
Now you can go online and get a free free program to cut vinyl. You know, that's all changed. And it's changed the perspective of... And that's what I think also changed the perspective of people coming in thinking...
00:48:55
Speaker
Well, I can go buy a cricket and make that. Why is yours so much money? I had one lady who tell me once, you know, she came in for one sticker. These stories are amazing. One sticker. She came in for one sticker. And she goes, how much does one sticker go cost me? i'm like, probably like 300 bucks. She goes, three inches round.
00:49:10
Speaker
I'm like, yeah. She goes, all you do is push that button. I'm like, that button is connected to $300,000 worth Yeah.
00:49:18
Speaker
Not counting software, overhead, electric. I said, you want me to make you one sticker? You've already cost me time. I said, go buy it on Etsy go buy it from somebody else. I don't i can't make it. She said, well, what if I buy $300? I'm like, this could be $300 still.
00:49:32
Speaker
I said, because once I make one, it doesn't matter how many I make after that. It's the time to set up and everything in between that you don't see. Yeah, I just push a button. I said, that's all I do. You know what? I think you need to go...
00:49:44
Speaker
right and like somebody online that has a cricket or a glow forage and can make this for you i don't have time for it right you know but people have that perspective though because of the and I'm not not my my knocking makers or hobbyists.
00:50:01
Speaker
They buy these things, they put them in a basement, and they can sell somebody sticker for a buck. Well, my Uncle Joe, he bought a cricket, and he can make them. I'm like, you have Uncle Joe do it. They really can't because they're not trying. That's the thing. They think they can make that sticker for a dollar, but that sticker actually costs them 15 or 20 bucks. Yeah. But they don't have to keep track and be efficient with their time.
00:50:22
Speaker
Yes. And that's fine. That's fine. That's fine. Right. But... When your time free, what want materials are your only cost. Yeah. Right. But that's the of a hobby.
00:50:33
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Here, where what happens is if I want my logo on a sticker, yeah, could I could i i can either buy a cricket and do it or I can call somebody I know who has a cricket. I know half a dozen people run crickets.
00:50:49
Speaker
But when I want 500 stickers, a person with a cricket is going to crap their pants. yeah know because they're like, oh my God, I can't make 500 stickers. Tom can make 500 stickers in three minutes.
00:51:01
Speaker
Exactly. you know Especially you've got a good SVG to start with and he doesn't have to spend an hour dicking with it. Right. right that's the That's the other bad thing about digital. There you is you have a logo yeah send you a jpeg and i'm like what am i gonna do with this this ain't this ain't camera art ready logos this is a jpeg yeah well where'd you get it from and well i made on canva or whatever and i'm like yeah that's i can't do anything with that yeah i said i'm gonna have to charge you like 500 for artwork to set this up into vector lines that i could do whatever i want to do with it i said i'm gonna take your jpeg if i blow it up to right now it's two inches by two inches if i blow up to a foot by a foot you're gonna see little squares you can go see a logo
00:51:41
Speaker
No. They don't understand that. Highly calculated. They say, what kind what kind of file do you need? I'm like a PDF, SVG, vector, epa EPS, AI, and then they'll take a JPEG and they'll send it out as a PDF, but it's still a fucking JPEG inside of it. Your name's the damn file.
00:51:57
Speaker
Yeah, like you didn't do anything here. you cant You can put a Corvette logo on a Pinto hood, but it's still fucking Pinto hood. Yeah, exactly. And that's the other frustrating thing about some of the digital things. People go online and they mock up stuff yeah on their own and they, oh yeah, artwork's all ready to go. i'm like, no, you don't understand. That's not, that's not how this works, you know? Yeah.
00:52:19
Speaker
but Right. The, the threshold through the door is a tough thing because people, people don't understand and it's not, no and you can't yell at them because how would they, under why would they understand?
00:52:32
Speaker
and you They just don't know. yeah They don't know. like i i've I've known Tom eight years, ten years now, and I'm about to ask a question. What's the difference between a vinyl printer and a vinyl plotter?
00:52:44
Speaker
a plotter A plotter is... It cuts vinyl. okay There's a knife in it. It does 360 degrees. It's a drag knife, basically.
00:52:55
Speaker
yeahp yeah A vinyl printer prints on material. okay But then you have... The Roland behind us, that's a print cut. So I can print in there.
00:53:07
Speaker
You got to laminate I can put it back in there and that machine will cut it. They have just ones that just print. They have ones that do print cut. And then I have a Gerber to my right here.
00:53:20
Speaker
That's a thermal printer that will just print. You have to put it in the other platter next to it that cuts it. Thermal printer. Um... the ribbon melts the ink off the ribbon into the vinyl so it don't need to be laminated uh the solvent eco-solid printer behind us that um you print it it's like inkjet basically you have to laminate over top of it or the ink will just basically after six months fade away there's no uv protection on it it's just ink laying on top so you literally have to
00:53:56
Speaker
laminate everything that comes off of this off of that machine yeah yeah okay see there's a there's a step that you're not going to do that on a cricket and the and the and the laminator that's that thing out there right yeah and that thing's as big as the printer yeah well it has to be it' ri because ah it will print up today you don't want fear has to i make that yeah 60 inch rolls. So yeah't you can't, you can't put a 60 inch roll on a 24 inch machine. Well, these are the things that like, and those are for wraps, right?
Vinyl and LED Technology in Signmaking
00:54:23
Speaker
You print a wrap and then you can, you can, we print decals on that too. It's all what material having them wrap material is different than decal material. Well, that was the other thing I was going to, if, if it's, if it's even feasible, if you could just do a, a,
00:54:38
Speaker
a thumbnail on vinyl type and what you would use it like, like, like is wrap vinyl, like flexible. Yes. More than vinyl or bra vinyl is conformable.
00:54:48
Speaker
It's air release. What's that mean? So in the back of it, you can't see it has micro little channels. So when you have a 54 inch wide by 10 foot, people would call stickers and i hate when you call stickers.
00:55:02
Speaker
It's a decal or a wrap. When you have that big air, air releases, you just push it out. All the bubbles, but you got to start from the center out or one side to the other. And all the air just follows those channels. Okay. If you have like high tack vinyl or for decals or truck lettering, that is a permanent base of the adhesive. It's not air.
00:55:24
Speaker
It holds better. It grips better. Um, It sticks. you If you get a bubble in the middle of that, you have a bubble in the middle of that. You're done. So wrap materials conformably, you can bend it around corners.
00:55:38
Speaker
um Like mirrors and everything? you Yeah, you can bend around on anything. And color change. Color change has become really big. That's all air release conformable vinyl. then Then there's die cut vinyl, which is you put in the plotters.
00:55:51
Speaker
That is not air release. That's more of a permanent... ah base adhesive that you want to let it review if you can. Digital prints are okay and digital wraps and stuff are okay, but you get five to eight years out of of that technology.
00:56:07
Speaker
I've let her trucks with die cut because it's the same color all the way through. You're just cutting and and applying it. I've had trucks out there 15, 20 years with the same vinyl on it because it is it's good not can't fade because it's the same color all the way through. right It does get chalky whatever, but those ah And then there's different breakdowns leaving that. There's calendar and cast. Calendar's cheaper. yeah you you know there's a different here I've seen you wrap a carbon fiber.
00:56:33
Speaker
Yep, there's a... There's a couple different carbon fibers. It looks like carbon fiber. It's a crazy. It feels like carbon fiber. Yeah, like you like you can run your hand on it, and it feels wet like weaved.
00:56:45
Speaker
Yeah, same thing with technology with all that vinyl stuff. It changes every day. you know, even messing with LEDs and and sign boxes and stuff like that, that stuff changes every day.
00:56:58
Speaker
Now there's thing, you know, because I'm a sign guy, we follow I follow a lot of... things on Facebook for sign guys. And now they have this new technology, just L it's the led stuff that you see a lot of makers making led and everybody calls it led neon old sign dogs get pissed off. They're like, it's not neon, not glass tubes. You know, it's little diodes.
00:57:21
Speaker
Stop calling it led neon. It's led strip lights. And that controversy is is so funny. I look at it online. I'm like, who cares? Yeah. It's a different form. is It is a neon. Yeah.
00:57:33
Speaker
yeah But yeah, CNC is not woodworking. It's not real neon. Well, that's why we call it LED neon. That's why I'm not dead either because neon will kill you. I mean, they're they're they're LEDs designed in a way to make it look like neon is the end result.
00:57:54
Speaker
Yes. And you're implementing that in the science now? Yeah, we are. Not using it as much. I want to start dabbling in a little bit more, but I've i've used it on some signs. We did some neon signs. They were neon signs, and we replaced the neon with the tube going down the road in a speeding bus.
00:58:19
Speaker
Can't tell. Looks like neon. Exactly. It served the purpose. You don't to worry about breaking. car wash yeah yeah that was one of the ones he was having more problems with that every year ne that the transformers go the glass tubes would break he came to me he said can we put that the neon the led stuff in it i'm like yeah that was three years ago and that sign still looks the day we put it up it looks brand new and he was having problems with that every six months so yeah the technology like jeff was saying earlier too those old neon guys they don't want to They don't want to admit or say my skill of bending neon is not the, you know, the right way to do it anymore.
00:58:56
Speaker
That's their way. And right. You know, that's the way they're going to be because that's the way they were taught. Your science just don't buzz the way they're supposed to. yeah Yeah. They don't break in the wintertime when they get really fragile. Sorry. Yeah.
00:59:09
Speaker
and za i know How dare you. In a world where things are going a billion times faster than they were even when we were kids. I can only imagine what grandparents and great grandparents have to be thinking in these days.
00:59:22
Speaker
um
00:59:26
Speaker
it's a big investment to learn a skill like sign painting or sandblasting or who, who's going to invest. These are, these are artisans. These people don't exist anymore.
00:59:38
Speaker
You know, that's one bad thing about technology too, is, you know, the schools in the past five, 10 years, they pushed, you need to learn technology based jobs and they got away from the trades. And I think it needs to come back, you know,
00:59:56
Speaker
In this business, it's weird. One day you're welding, next day you're working with wood, next day you're wrapping in a vehicle, next day you're out digging holes, next day you're a carpenter, next day you're electrician because you're doing LED signs.
01:00:08
Speaker
We cover so many different hands-on things, welding. you know it's There's a lot of skill sets that go into building a sign. It's not just one thing. You to be very diverse and it's a good skill.
01:00:24
Speaker
And it's a good skill to carry on to other industries because you're not just doing one thing. You're not. And that's what, you know, my, one of my guys I just got, he, he was a welder and he sat at factory making airplane parts in the same spot, just all day long.
01:00:40
Speaker
And he got so annoyed with it burned up, came here. i said, well, we build sides. You're not going weld every day. And he's like, all right. Uh, been here two years and he's like, I would never not I would never go back to just welding.
01:00:55
Speaker
You know, he knows how to spray a gun now spray sides. He's out on installs. He's, he's like, every day is different. And that's what's great about this industry and technology. Every every day you're learning everything, every day you're doing something different. not the same thing over and over and over and over again.
01:01:09
Speaker
And I think schools need to go back to training kids some of these trades instead of saying, you got to learn about technology and you got to learn how to use a computer. You got to no they don't even teach kids how to write their name in cursive anymore.
01:01:25
Speaker
I don't know how why. i had one kid in here. I wrote a note to go pick up something. He calls me. He's like, hey I can't read your note. I'm like, what do you mean? I got good cursive writing. He goes, they never taught us cursive. i don't know what it says. I'm like, you fucking kidding me?
01:01:40
Speaker
Wow. Take a picture of it. Take a picture of it with Google Translate or whatever the hell like whatever the photo translation is. no They'll convert it to normal print numbers for you.
01:01:55
Speaker
But that's what the that's why we know you got your podcast is about digital stuff, and and it's great in some aspects. In some aspects, digital is not all that. you know yeah Learning to write your name in cursive, I think, is pretty important instead of having Google translate it for you. you know well How do you write a check? How do you write a check? Well, I guess they don't write checks anymore these days. No, they don't.
01:02:14
Speaker
They tap their phone on the little iPad thing and whatever it is, and yeah they pay and are underway. Yeah. and to To be fair, the only real use of cursive is interacting with legacy stuff.
01:02:29
Speaker
I mean, old stuff. I mean, if you want to pick up some old handwriting and be able to read that, you need the cursive. But to be a modern person in the modern world...
01:02:42
Speaker
I mean, the only thing I use cursive for in my entire life is a scribble, which at one point was a cursive representation of my name when I did a signature. I mean, it's it's a scribble now, but I mean, it started as a cursive...
01:03:01
Speaker
Jeff Stein on the paper. And now it's just this little scribble that basically kind of vaguely represents the curse of shape of some of those letters. But that's the only cursive that I use at this point in time. And I don't know that there's really any value in teaching kids how to do that other than you're interacting with old people's notes. Yeah.
01:03:23
Speaker
I mean, yeah it's true true here's here's, here's, here's a ah good, I saw an article, a video article here, probably a month or so ago, my wife and I were talking about this. Cause we just went to DC on vacation here last year and went to the archives and all that kind of stuff.
01:03:39
Speaker
There was an article that I showed my wife that the, uh, Federal Archives, I forget the name the official name of the building, but the building where all our all our the Declaration is and all our history and all that kind of stuff.
01:03:55
Speaker
They're looking for people to digitize into print all are the Declaration of Independence, you know all the the the Magna Carta, all the all these things, because people don't know how to read. They come see it, and they can't read it now. yeah like they They need the translation next to it.
01:04:14
Speaker
They need a translation in print next to it. They don't need people for that. AI will do it. So, yeah, well, and then all of a sudden AI will... It's going to add an extra leg there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and you don't want to You don't want AI adding an extra amendment. No. No, well, they'll add something that benefits themselves. Or removing an amendment. Or rewording it. you know Yeah, add a couple of words to... Yeah, because a couple of words could change a lot of history. Exactly. Very true.
01:04:44
Speaker
so So, yeah, I mean, it's like it's like saying you don't need to know how to drive a stick. Well, you don't need to, but are you really going to put automatics in everything? but They are. They can are you kind of are. You have to special order vehicles now. You can't get a Volkswagen unless you spec it as a standard.
01:05:05
Speaker
It will come automatic unless you order it. I think there's some vehicles that don't come with automatics. Things that are definitely listed as sports cars.
01:05:16
Speaker
yeah A lot of those are just, that they've always been made as manuals and they won't make an automatic version of them. I don't remember which ones are which. It'd have to be pretty high up because even the big dogs are doing paddle shifts and all that stuff now. I don't know.
01:05:33
Speaker
I can drive a stick definitely. And I enjoy a stick. um However, i don't want to drive one in traffic because it's just an absolute pain in the leg to be in and out of first gear, second gear and stop and go traffic.
01:05:53
Speaker
Oh yeah. iphon Again, just like technology, you know, we were talking about how digital, digital fabrication helps our businesses and stuff like that. I started plowing snow 40 years ago in ah in a, in a four speed Chevy. And let me tell you, your, your left leg looks like Popeye at the end of the night, you know, um you know, you plow 10 hours clutching all night.
01:06:19
Speaker
Um, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead. I was just going to say real quick before we start moving into things of the week and that kind of stuff. What, Tom, what are some basic differences in sign
Types of Signs and Their Features
01:06:35
Speaker
styles?
01:06:35
Speaker
Like explain, like we've talked about vinyl and wraps and stuff like that, but explain light boxes and push-throughs and and how what all that is because I don't think people understand what they're looking at again a good sign is you don't even realize what you're looking at whether it's a light box or a push-through or a billboard with whatever it you know yeah i mean I mean there's ah there's just so many but um You know, we do a gamut of them. We do carve signs.
01:07:06
Speaker
Basically, same thing. Talking about technology. Years ago, all our carve signs were wood or cedar. Now we use HDU. It just lasts longer. Plastics, foams. Yeah, it's foams, plastics. It just lasts longer.
01:07:19
Speaker
People that come in now, na and they say, I want to i on a real wood sign. And I always say to them, are you going go outside and coat it every year? Because it's about a year from now, it's wood. It's going crack, break, split. So we do carve signs. We do it.
01:07:30
Speaker
Now we do them out of HDU. um We do MDO signs, which is just basically a waterproof plywood that you edge coat, cut to size, cut it to shape. We can do that on the router, um paint it and put vinyl on it.
01:07:42
Speaker
No dimension. Then we do like aluminum composite signs where the frame's all built out of one by one aluminum tube that we take weld together, skin it with ACM. I don't know if anybody here knows what ACM is. Is that the metal, plastic metal?
01:07:54
Speaker
Yep. Yep. DyeBond. DyeBond's a brand, but yeah, we we make a lot of sides out of that, and then we'll put raised PVC lettering on it, which digital helped us with that because now we used to cut all those, I hate to say...
01:08:08
Speaker
I remember bringing him up. Jimmy DiResta. Yeah. used to all We used to cut all that, all those letters on a fucking bandsaw, just like he did. Now we throw them on the goddamn CNC and see yeah it it cuts out.
01:08:20
Speaker
You got out 10 alphabets. Yeah. And and it yeah, is it, is the hand good thing gone of cutting them on, on a, on a bandsaw? Yeah. But you know, when you're trying to make money and, and,
01:08:31
Speaker
get out 10 of those. So we make aluminum composite signs. We'll raise PVC lettering. Then you move into electrical signs where they're just light up boxes with Lexan faces with LEDs inside used to be halogen bulbs. Now we put up a LED sign like that.
01:08:45
Speaker
You're not here. Number one is way more cost efficient with electricity where the technology changed. but You can't get bulbs for signs anymore. You have to convert old signs to LEDs now. And, but the LEDs, like I a lot less cost.
01:09:00
Speaker
Yeah. for the consumer and the electric can and longer you don't have to go back and service aside. Sometimes you put bulbs in six months later, the bulbs blown. Now you're paying a service fee to put bulbs in.
01:09:10
Speaker
So those are led boxes. We do push through, which you help us a lot with that. Cause we only have a four by four CNC. Someday I'll have a bigger one. Um, So we push through is basically you take an aluminum face, you cut the lettering out, and then you route out the acrylic to push through the front of it. We just did one the other day that you helped us with.
01:09:31
Speaker
That's push through sign. And then you put lights inside the box. the LEDs behind it. So the whole box ain't lit up. Just the letters are lit up. Where a light box, the whole face is lit up. Okay. So that's the difference there.
01:09:43
Speaker
I mean, there's just there's so many more different versions. But those are all the main things. what are the What are the signs that like Radio Shack used to be? Well, now I'm showing my age. Channel letters. so The letters were the sign. Yep, those were channel letters we make. those Those are, and then there's different kind of channel letters. There's facelit channel letters. There's reverse lit channel letters. There's edge lit channel letters. Now there's halo, reverse halo lit letters, which are not channel letters. They're reverse halo lit letters where we manufacture those all out of them, take them, make a pen,
01:10:18
Speaker
shine the LED in the back of them so it has a nice glow around it, which back... 15 years ago, that wasn't even around. didn't exist because of the LEDs came out. It made it easier.
01:10:29
Speaker
um So that's where you got to keep up with stuff with technology and how things change. Because if you're not, like I said earlier, you're you're you're just going to end up fading away because people want that stuff these days. you know It's just crazy.
01:10:43
Speaker
And the interesting thing is is that people don't know that that's what they want. They come in and say, hey, I want the sign that looks like... but he has to know what type of sign they're actually talking about.
01:10:54
Speaker
Cause they're not going to come in and say, Hey, I want to reverse halo lit led sign that says, vobble bo bla bu bla bla um I'm actually working on a, I'm working on a form right now. I've never had one.
01:11:06
Speaker
It's an intake form. Just like when you go to the doctor, you sit there, you fill out, have you been out of the country? but heard So going to be a little bit different. I don't care that you're out of the country, but basically you're to all the important information your business name. Do you have a logo?
01:11:21
Speaker
What kind of sign are you looking for? What's the location? Is it on a building? is it single sided? Cause I'll get people on my website, which is a great thing. you know, they'll put in need a sign. That's what I get for a request. You make sense. Seven emails later, I finally get a size out of them. And ah and ah and if it's single sided or double sided, it's still pulling teeth of what kind of, really don't know what I want.
01:11:42
Speaker
I'm like, boy, but go out go on the website, look at signs. start Start by sending me a picture where you want the damn sign. Yeah, exactly. and Then you can see, i he showing you a wall that it goes on the wall? Or is he showing you his front yard where people are going to drive by it from both sides? And maybe maybe you can figure out what he needs.
01:12:04
Speaker
Yeah. And not not only not only does Tom have to pull the create your creativity out and figure out how it applies mechanically to him as a maker.
01:12:15
Speaker
Now he has to go, yeah, that ah that would be an amazing sign and I can make it beautiful, but you know what? Legally, you're not allowed to put it there because of municipality rules or whatever.
01:12:26
Speaker
So he's got to go through all that too on top of, man, you're doing a lot of shit. like What, you want a job? No. He's been trying to get me to work for him for years.
01:12:38
Speaker
He pretty much gave up. He's like, fuck that guy.
01:12:44
Speaker
Yeah, we we do a lot of that stuff
Digital Tools in Permitting and Approvals
01:12:46
Speaker
too. We pull a lot of permits. so Once again, that's where the digital thing comes in great too, because can do a spec'd out digital layouts on a computer and hand them to a municipality saying, this is exactly what the signs will look like.
01:13:00
Speaker
Back before this, you were hand sketching something on a paper yeah and you handed somebody and they just couldn't get what a 2D thing is on a piece of paper. It looked like three dimensional in their yard or even a town couldn't understand that.
01:13:14
Speaker
But now you hand them these things and You can rotate it and it's a whole drawing and they're like, oh, okay. We know exactly what this is going to like. Okay, we'll prove that. you know You don't have to try to sit there and explain to a town.
01:13:26
Speaker
You can just show them images and files and everything you created digitally and the scale. I'll out and do site surveys. I'll render their sign right under a piece of property so when I go to the town, I'll be like, oh.
01:13:39
Speaker
Okay. This is the actual building that's going on. It's a lot less fight, you know, cause they know what ah they know what the sign is going to look like. and And then you get it approved quicker where back in the day, you're just hand sketching something on a piece of paper.
01:13:51
Speaker
For, for people listening. um It's kind of a similar, it's a similar technology to when, if you shop on Amazon and you want to see what the coffee pot's going to look like on your counter, you can literally in Amazon. Now you can take a picture of your counter.
01:14:06
Speaker
and it'll put the product you're looking for on the counter so you can see if it matches and stuff. It's so similar to that. Yeah, pretty much. you know You're going to be able to see. yeah Man, you really do do a lot.
01:14:21
Speaker
Too much. God, we need to go make some ribs and have a beer.
01:14:27
Speaker
Doesn't sound like a bad plan.
Comprehensive News Coverage on Instagram
01:14:29
Speaker
it Sounds like a solid plan. Yeah, I got two racks in the fridge right now for tomorrow. so Well, I'm out of questions, Jeff.
01:14:39
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you know, it's, it's hitting lunchtime. We should probably jump into the things of the week and see what we got to recommend. Yeah. Yeah. Anybody got anything off top? I can go first real quick. It's totally off subject, but go ahead. Okay.
01:14:54
Speaker
ah Before we started recording, we were talking about the, the P word politics, if you will. Yeah. And I remembered ah Jeff gave me some really sage advice and I appreciate that. But I do remember on Instagram, there is a channel or a site, or I don't even know what it's called on this. What do you call it? Channel?
01:15:17
Speaker
A feed? Feed. There's an Instagram feed called All Sides Now. um And what All Sides Now does to as much as you want to put faith in any kind of news is they will pick a subject that's in the news.
01:15:36
Speaker
And then they will say, this is what the conservative right news are people are saying. This is what the liberal left news people are saying. This is what the central centrist news programs are are saying.
01:15:52
Speaker
And it's, it's what everybody's saying about the same subject, which kind of gives you the ability to go, oh okay. This side thinks this, this side thinks that, rather than trying to find your own form your own opinion at the backyard fence with your neighbor you don't agree with. you know This is what the actual news outlets are saying on all sides, which I like. it' It's nice to hear all sides of something for a
Supporting Local Businesses
01:16:17
Speaker
change. Exactly. exactly i don Don't you remember when the news used to tell us the facts and we used to figure out how we felt about it?
01:16:27
Speaker
Mm-hmm. That's kind of what all stuff is about now. Now they tell us how we're supposed to feel about it, and we have to figure out what the actual facts are. Exactly. And that's why I like this this feed, and and they don't try to swing you left, right, middle. They're just like, this is what everybody's saying about this subject.
01:16:46
Speaker
And I'm like, thanks. That's all I fucking asked for. turn news off that's why i turn to i don't want some news anymore to accept to get the local weather i'm gonna follow that why don't you give us the name of that one more time it's all sides now all sides now yeah okay i'm gonna follow that one what do you got tom uh i just gotta support your local business um okay because it kind of falls into your digital marketing where people can go online now and they can order something from across the country somewhere else. And all you're doing supporting a big corporation that don't care about you as an individual person.
01:17:28
Speaker
i think we all need to support each other more locally. um And that's really it. I mean, I we try to anybody that buys something from us to sign, you know, for a restaurant or a carpenter or a lawnmower. I mean, I can't have 17 guys mowing my lawn because we do about 50 lawnmower companies, but we always use somebody that uses us. And I think paying it forward or paying it back is not what it used to be with with with the the digital age because you can go on Amazon and buy something and not support somebody local and
01:18:04
Speaker
God bless Jeff Bezos. He's a millionaire, but I don't think he needs any more of anybody's money. wow No, no. You think he's good? think he's good. Tom, I'm actively trying to scale back my Amazon usage as much as possible.
01:18:24
Speaker
I'm trying to buy things more from the companies. I mean, I'll still use Amazon as a place to find the stuff I want. But once I find something I want and pick a brand that I think looks good, then maybe go to the brand's website and try to buy it from them instead.
01:18:42
Speaker
Instead of enhancing. It's a good thing. i mean I get people in here all the time about, well, I can get this banner online for half the price. i'm like, yeah, you're supporting some guy in.
01:18:55
Speaker
It could be China. It could be another country. i'm like, yeah that's all they do. And that's all they do all day long. um I'm glad you're supporting them, but I, I'm not going to not make money to keep you here.
01:19:08
Speaker
You know, to me, it's like we support each other as businesses. And and I think that's important. I think it's very important. yeah and to Tom has a feed on Instagram called NumNumToms. He'll send you the link also.
01:19:23
Speaker
And he does. He goes to him and his wife go to all these restaurants and they post. It's not it's not a food critic site, but it's promoting everybody is promoting well that page I use to promote the businesses that come here, you know, right before the podcast started a local business right down the road, he makes crystal clear ice. Um, we do his work and he brings me ice and I try to promote him.
01:19:51
Speaker
and I think it's a, it's a good thing, you know, and, and I try to use that page to promote those companies that helped me. Um, And we do go to a lot of restaurants. We go to a lot of wineries and breweries. And, you know, and if if that business has been to me, I i tag them.
01:20:09
Speaker
I try to show the love. And I think it's it's the
DIY Resources and Dream Tools
01:20:13
Speaker
right thing to do. I mean, I've i've been a big opponent of that. um and I just think it's the right thing to do in my mind. so And if you're 100 miles from Tom, he knows the restaurants to eat at.
01:20:26
Speaker
and because He eats at them all. he's You can trust his words. All right. Well, i'm I'm a big fan of shopping local and supporting local businesses. I think that's a good choice.
01:20:39
Speaker
What do you got? i have ah This week, I've got a website that I'm going to recommend that I think is very useful for anybody who makes things, whether you're DIY or professional.
01:20:53
Speaker
The website is for people who like to glue things together. It's called thistothat.com. And it's it's a pretty basic website.
01:21:06
Speaker
It's got a couple of drop-downs, and you choose what you want to attach and what you want to attach it to. So, I mean, it's got a ceramic, fabric, glass, leather, metal, paper, plastic, rubber, styrofoam, vinyl, and wood.
01:21:22
Speaker
In both columns and you can choose it say oh well I want to choose I want to glue leather to metal. Then you hit those in the drop downs and hit the let's glue button and it'll give you a list of adhesives that are best suited for gluing leather to metal.
01:21:40
Speaker
so So whatever it is, you need to glue. i mean, if you're gluing wood to wood, you use wood glue, you know, obviously, but I mean, if you want to glue dissimilar materials, this will give you the answer as to which adhesives are the best for that combination of strange shit that you're trying to put together.
01:22:02
Speaker
So does tight bond make a leather to acrylic glue? I don't know.
01:22:10
Speaker
That's a good, there's more digital, like that's information that ah an old artisan in a garage somewhere knows that nobody else knows. yeah Some old artisan made a website with that information. And now if you go to this to that, it'll tell you exactly the best way to glue this to that.
01:22:31
Speaker
That's really cool. That's cool one. I like that one. I'm going to put that one in the saved top. Okay. Let's see. I like to ask everybody what their dream tool is. If you could have any one tool delivered for free, um what what would you add?
01:22:49
Speaker
but What would I add? I would add a CNC plasma cutter. CNC plasma. Those look cool. Yeah. Those look like fun. if If I did a lot of stuff with metal, I'd probably want one of those.
01:23:01
Speaker
I just... We do, and it just... It would make... I'm going to bring his name up again. I run to Jimmy's all the time to use his. and It's totally fine. feeling i after him Hey, Jimmy, can i can I run over there and cut this metal real quick?
01:23:16
Speaker
we We have not made it through an episode without someone mentioning Jimmy, and it's never just a because we felt like mentioning Jimmy. It's just because he came into the conversation because he's...
01:23:31
Speaker
I don't know. I would love i would love to have a CNC, like you said, CNC plasma cutter. I go over and use his and I watch that thing cut metal and and and I design stuff here and code and it just cuts it perfect. I'm like, you know how long this would have took me?
01:23:45
Speaker
Here we go with digital stuff again. You know how long would it took me to cut that by hand? Yeah. Especially when you're doing like, we do a quarter inch steel letters and we drill and tap the back of them paint them and put them on buildings. I'm like, for us to cut those, you couldn't.
01:23:59
Speaker
You can't. you know it just now There's no way to do it. And that thing just cuts them like butter. It's just the greatest thing ever. Now that we have a little more room because we added on to the shop, um but it does I can see that in my future.
Community and Show Support
01:24:12
Speaker
Yeah. That sounds like a good one. Yeah. All right. Well, I think it's about lunchtime. we should probably start wrapping this thing up. so i definitely i don't get a thing of the week or dream a dream se dream tool i don't get a dream tool oh well didn eat and do you have a different dream tool every week al i figure no i don't well it just gets me it just gets me thinking about like things i can't do but well i mean last last time was uh you were dream tooling about uh
01:24:45
Speaker
bamboo printer and you've pretty much committed to buying one at this point, I think. I have. I have. I'm going to buy an A1 with AMS and we're going to do an entry level 3D printer.
01:25:00
Speaker
But yeah, Tormach. Man, I've just been watching videos on them this week, and I'm like, God, I've got to get one of them. Yeah, yeah. that's That's a definite cheap and easy $300 Walmart purchase, right? Yeah, yeah. I think you can get them on Amazon. Same price as a cricket, right?
01:25:21
Speaker
Yeah. I think cricket makes one. Oh, there you go. There you go. Oh, crack it. Crack it, yeah. Nice.
01:25:31
Speaker
All right. So I'd like to thank Tom for coming on the show and everybody who enjoyed the episode should go follow Tom on, let's see, you're on Instagram in a couple of places.
01:25:45
Speaker
Yep. Next Gen Signs and num under slash num Toms. Okay. We have a webpage on the Next Gen Signs Inc. um Come take a, take a follow, take a look, see what we do and,
01:26:01
Speaker
Harass them. Exactly. reach out reach out Reach out if you have any kind of sign questions. I'm more than willing to help people. I mean, that's the other bad thing about our industry is everybody feels like we all have secrets.
01:26:12
Speaker
You know, we can't, that's the difference between the maker community and like the sign community sign guys are like, they don't want to share information, make a community, everybody sharing everything. And I don't mind sharing.
01:26:22
Speaker
I mean, it doesn't, it's not gonna affect my business. Any, it's not like Jefferson right next door to me. And if I tell them how to build the sign, nobody's gonna order a sign from where you are for me, you know, so I don't mind helping, helping guys out with technology and questions.
01:26:37
Speaker
Okay, so people should hit you up if they've got a JPEG of a logo they'd want a $3 sticker made, right? Perfect. Send them my way. I'll take care of them. Cricket.com. That's the answer you're going to get. Where do we find you so I can add that link in there? All right. So I also need to thank Al for taking the time to hang out, and need to thank all the listeners for taking the time to tune in.
01:27:06
Speaker
And i need to have a huge thank you for our current patrons for their support. So many thanks to Adam from BKR Customs, Ed Swanson of Ed's Clocks and More, and Eric from Overall Makerworks.
01:27:21
Speaker
If you enjoyed listening and would like to help support the show you can share it with your friends, leave a review, or join our Patreon. Our Patreon is at patreon.com slash digifabricators.
01:27:34
Speaker
And we have a Discord server open to all of our listeners. Our patrons also get access to an exclusive patron channel in our server where they get to hear about our next guest before it becomes public knowledge.
01:27:49
Speaker
Direct links to our Discord server and Patreon page are in the Digifabricators Instagram bio, which you should also be following at digi-fabricators.
01:28:00
Speaker
If you or someone you know does cool things with their digital tools, please let us know. We've only got so many friends to invite, and then we will need your suggestions to keep the show going. I can be found most places as a weird guy, and al can be found under New York Woodworks, which is N-Y Woodworks with an X. So thanks again to everybody, and we will catch you on the next episode.
01:28:34
Speaker
Sweet nailed it