Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
77. Angela Amirault - The Power of Psychedelic Therapy
0 Plays2 seconds ago
This is episode 77, where we welcome psychedelic therapist and returning guest Angela Amirault. Angela is the founder of Altered Healing, a Halifax, Nova Scotia-based practice specializing in psychedelic therapy and guidance, available both in-person and online. With over a decade of experience as a psychotherapist and addictions technician, Angela is a highly skilled professional dedicated to supporting clients on their healing journeys. As a psychedelic therapist, she has accumulated over 500 hours of medicine session experience. In this discussion, we explore her approach to healing—for both her clients and herself—along with insights on spirituality, consciousness, and more.
https://alteredhealing.com/
https://www.instagram.com/alteredhealing/
https://www.facebook.com/Alteredhealing/
https://www.tiktok.com/ @AlteredHealing
https://www.youtube.com/@altered-healing
https://www.linkedin.com/in/angela-amirault/
https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e87afa569a3be21d&cs=1&output=search&q=Altered+Healing&ludocid=14550859093159581380&lsig=AB86z5XDibz0ShSzFB89K39hfzZT&kgs=be13205c0cbf4902&shndl=-1&shem=lsp&source=sh/x/kp/local/m1/1#
_________________
Music By R-Production
Follow Pursuit Of Infinity:
www.PursuitOfInfinity.com
Discord: https://discord.io/pursuitofinfinity
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPpwtLPMH5bjBTPMHSlYnwQ
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/58he621hhQ7RkajcmFNffb
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/pursuit-of-infinity/id1605998093
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pursuitofinfinitypod/
X: https://twitter.com/PursuitInfinity
Patreon: Patreon.com/PursuitOfInfinity
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pursuit of Infinity, a podcast where we journey into the landscapes of consciousness and beyond, diving deep into the realm of psychedelics, metaphysics, and more. This is episode 77, where we welcome psychedelic therapist and returning guest Angela Amiro.
00:00:18
Speaker
Angela is the founder of Altered Healing, a Halifax, Nova Scotia-based practice specializing in psychedelic therapy and guidance available both in-person and online. With over a decade of experience as a psychotherapist and addictions technician, Angela is a highly skilled professional dedicated to supporting clients on their healing journeys. As a psychedelic therapist, she has accumulated over 500 hours of medicine session experience.
00:00:47
Speaker
In today's discussion, we explore her approach to healing for both herself and her clients, along with insights on spirituality, consciousness, and more. But before we get to it, as always, you can visit our website, PursuitOfInfinity.com, where you can listen to the podcast through our integrated media player, if you prefer that over Spotify, Apple, Audible, or any other podcast platform.
00:01:11
Speaker
You can also find all the places you can follow us and you can reach out to us using our email form or our audio feature. Give us a follow on Instagram at Pursuit of Infinity Pod, and head over to our YouTube channel at youtube dot.com slash at Pursuit of Infinity, where we post all of our episodes and shorts. If you love the show and you want to show us some support, please consider giving us a like, a sub, a five star rating, wherever you listen or watch. And also please leave us a comment or a review. These things really help us to conquer the algorithms and spread our conversations far and wide.
00:01:48
Speaker
If you really love the show and you want to show us some extra support, visit our Patreon at patreon dot.com slash pursuit of infinity to become a patron. We appreciate each and every one of you so
Angela Amiro's Return to Nova Scotia and Therapy Practice
00:02:00
Speaker
much. Thank you for listening and I hope you enjoy today's episode.
00:02:18
Speaker
Hey everyone. Welcome to pursuit of infinity. I'm your host, Josh. And today I'm joined by Angela Amiro, who was a returning guest. So welcome back, Angela. Thank you so much for having me again. I'm so happy to be here. I appreciate it. Uh, now since last time we talked, you've been pretty busy. So why don't we talk a little bit about what you've been up to?
00:02:37
Speaker
Yeah, so last time we spoke, I was working at a clinic in Boulder, Colorado called medicinal mindfulness. And since then, I've moved back to Nova Scotia, which is where I was actually born and raised. And here I have launched the first and only as far as I know, cannabis assisted psychedelic therapy practice. So that's really exciting. What are the laws like in that area as opposed to Colorado?
00:03:04
Speaker
Well, for like for a cannabis, for example, um it's legal for all of Canada. So I recently traveled to Toronto and I could have flown with cannabis on me, which is kind of a new experience. I've never been able to do that. I still didn't because I was like, this feels like I will get in trouble, which I wouldn't have.
00:03:23
Speaker
Um, but yeah, so everywhere in Canada, cannabis is legal. When it comes to other medicines, um, they're pretty much kind of decriminalized psilocybin. And so you can like go online and buy it. I have no idea how that is legal or allowed, but there's definitely been some big shifts since I lived here last. So it's really interesting and like nice to see.
Global Shift in Psychedelic Acceptance
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah. Things seem to be moving in the right direction everywhere in the world.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yeah, and which I'm grateful for again, like so many of these things. and We've been like humans have been using for centuries, thousands of years, maybe since the beginning of humans. So it really seems silly that so much of this is illegal and folks can't access it.
00:04:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny, everyone talks about the Renaissance, but it's only a Renaissance within a very small culture of the world in a very small time period throughout human history, because thousands of years, for thousands of years, we've been using these substances and just within the last 40, 50 years, we stopped and now we're like, oh, there's interest here again. So why don't we study these a little more? Why don't we make them more illegal so people can actually get the help they need?
00:04:30
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's like the more Western medicalized mentality of like, now that you know now that we can also maybe make money off it like there's, you know, there's issues within that because what about all the indigenous folks who have been doing this work for ever, and like their access to it, their ability to practice with these medicines, if they don't have a master's, but they have like more hours than many of us could clock in a lifetime sitting in these spaces. So it's really interesting like being like, I'm so grateful that
Building Community and Safe Use of Psychedelics
00:05:00
Speaker
this work is coming to the forefront and it's becoming accessible. But then I'm also like holding this other piece of like, what about all the, you know, the knowledge that's lost when we're going into this more medicalized realm.
00:05:12
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the, the religion of the West is science and, you know, the highest level of science that can be practiced, at least in a lot of people's opinion is medicine. So of course these substances have to sort of go through the gate of medicine in order to maybe become a little bit more widespread for, as Michael Pollan said, uh, for the betterment of well people.
00:05:35
Speaker
Mm hmm. And I love that it's like coming to the forefront. I think it's just, it'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out because this is still so new and being held in this way. So and I'm i'm grateful that I'm somewhere now where I'm, you know, I'm i'm kind of building a new community. And I'm just interested to see like what folks are doing with these medicines. How are they holding them? How are they honoring them? um And there always are communities of people who are like, this has been here forever. And how do we also bring it to people who maybe are
00:06:10
Speaker
like have been deprogrammed or more programmed for like the propaganda or for like, you know, all the war on drugs things that we were sold. um And it's been interesting coming here because I would have thought it was a much more, I guess, more conservative in some ways. And when I tell people what I do, they're like, ooh, tell me more. And so often people are like psychedelic therapy. What is that exactly? And other times people are like, Oh, amazing. I'm so excited to hear more. So it's it's really nice to like also get to introduce this work to people who maybe have been not really aware of its existence before.
00:06:44
Speaker
Yeah. And there are a lot of like really big popular podcasters and things like that that are helping to push it along too. You know, Joe Rogan talks about it all the time. Uh, there's a guy named Sean Ryan who has a really interesting podcast. Um, he's like a war veteran and he healed his PTSD through psilocybin therapy and he's been spreading the word. So it's getting out there in a big way for sure.
00:07:08
Speaker
Yeah, I love heroic hearts and like what they're doing, which is a lot of working with veterans and psilocybin and really supporting these people, which is wonderful as it should be. Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's like, these are the people who need it the most. And it's, it's interesting that the healing can be displayed or the potential for these substances to heal can be displayed in the most dramatic way within the lives of veterans because they have been through the deepest degrees of trauma that at least I could ever think of. Yeah.
00:07:43
Speaker
Yeah, and it's it's like hearing, like it's also like being like I've followed the maps research for years or as I like MDMA and PTSD. And it's, it's just such a good example that there's so many of these medicines. And not every medicine is for everyone. But some of these can be so healing for the right person. And I feel like making them available to the right individual is just it's the way I think it should be.
00:08:09
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree. And so just before we get too deep into any particular topic, for anyone who hasn't listened to our first episode, which highly recommend you go back and listen to, um can you just sort of explain what you do and what your practice is?
00:08:24
Speaker
Yeah, so I have a background in psychotherapy. So I got a degree in psychology here in Nova Scotia, and then I traveled to Ireland and I lived in Ireland for about 12 years. And there I continued my education and I trained as a psychotherapist. I ran my own private practice and then me and my family moved to Boulder, Colorado.
00:08:43
Speaker
When I was there, I actually started working within the judicial system. I was mainly working with like multiple DUI offenders and folks who had substance abuse issues. um and I'd always been really drawn to the really to working with folks who were in the jail system because I felt like there's just so much trauma there. How can I be of support? and so I started doing that work, but while I was doing that, I then trained um to work with you know to become a psychedelic therapist. and It was actually
Angela's Career and Healing Journey
00:09:10
Speaker
that journey um that I realized that It was hurting my body to work within the judicial system. I had this really incredible medicine experience. um It was like cannabis and breathwork, and I i ended up like connecting to the trauma within that system that I kind of had convinced myself I wasn't part of the system because I was trying to support them, but I would have to bring
00:09:33
Speaker
Cases to probation and then maybe my clients would end up having to go to jail and it was like a big weight and I was like I actually can't do this from the inside and so once I train I was like I want to step fully into the medicine space and so I was able to do that in Colorado and I was able to work with ketamine and cannabis and I was there when psilocybin was legalized which was such an amazing thing to be a part of. None of us thought it was going to happen. Like we're all together. We're like as a community and talking and we're like, ah, it's probably not going to happen. And then it did, which was wild. And now the government's kind of like trying to change some things like, oh, I think like they didn't think it was going to pass either. um And so it was really, it's been remarkable. It was remarkable getting to be there for that.
00:10:16
Speaker
And then about a year ago, actually moved back here to Nova Scotia, where I've been like trying to get settled and then set up working here in the same field. So it's been quite a journey the last few years of like, finding this and really feeling like this is my purpose. It's one of the things I was put on the planet to do and getting to do it, which is like such a gift. Yeah, it's such a blessing to be able to be a part of this work. It's amazing.
00:10:43
Speaker
o And you have your own practice now, right? Yeah. It's called altered healing. And it was one of those, that like, I was trying to think of like, well, how could I like encapsulate like what these experiences are like where you could do? And it's like, well, you're in an altered state and you heal. It's like easy peasy. So it's altered healing. Um, yeah. And it's been, it's been really nice getting to bring this work and like working with cannabis is great because it's, some people are like, ah, is cannabis really a psychedelic? And it's like, I'll just give the example of like,
00:11:14
Speaker
How many times have you heard of someone who's had too much of an edible, too big of a dose, and they're like, I'm having a heart attack, I need to go to the hospital, it's like, you don't die from cannabis, you don't die from a cannabis overdose, but you can have a very big semantics like body focused experience. And if it's not the right container,
00:11:34
Speaker
you get overwhelmed, you get panicky. And so it's been really nice like introducing this type of work and a really interesting,
Therapeutic Use of Cannabis
00:11:40
Speaker
you know, in a safe setting and a safe container and showing people kind of what amazing medicine cannabis can be. So that's been really fun. So do you think that like panicky feeling and just the overall power of it is an indication that this is a substance that you can use there's utility there?
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I can even just from my own experience, like when I was younger, I use cannabis to numb. She was wonderful for helping me not have to feel grief, overwhelm, anxiety, and that's what I used it for. um And it was kind of interesting my own journey, because when I was then training to be a psychotherapist, and I was really doing my own work,
00:12:18
Speaker
And I was living in Ireland, it was much harder to get my hands on any cannabis. And so I remember after like really deep, like, inner working and looking at self, I just remember saying, Oh, I'd love to smoke a joint. I was like, that's really interesting. Like, I'm wondering why that is like, I'm wondering why I'm having that pull to want to use that and it kind of allowed me to like, relook at that relationship be like, Oh, this is this was a pattern, I used it to like numb. So like cannabis doesn't have addictive qualities, but it can be habit forming and we can use it in ways that are maybe not helping us grow. And so then when I moved to Colorado and it was so readily available and got to go to dispensaries, I started kind of like having my relationship like with cannabis again, and I would feel anxious, like I would feel a tightness in my chest. I wasn't really comfortable with it. I was like, oh man, I was like, I've heard of this happening to people and I can't believe it's happened to me.
00:13:09
Speaker
And then I had my first big journey with it while I was training. um And so Daniel, who was guiding it had said, you know, you're so safe, you're so held. And I got this kick to my heart chakra and all this grief that I had been holding on to for like,
00:13:26
Speaker
15 years, 10, 15 years, I couldn't hit any other way, but I um was able to get into that space and it was just unleashed. And so often when I meet people and they're like, you know, it makes me anxious now, usually I'm thinking, well, that's probably an indicator that cannabis is trying to tell you like there's more there, there's something to look at, there's something to sit with, there's maybe something that needs to be processed. Because I've seen it many times where people are like, oh, it makes me jittery, or it makes me this. But in a safe setting, and when they're like actually feeling supported, I haven't really seen anyone get that anxious place. Or if they do, they breathe into it, and it's sadness or grief or trauma or things like that that need to move. So it's it's really interesting. like It was really my own
00:14:10
Speaker
developing my own relationship with it has then helped me to develop other people's as well and really trusting that it can be a really good support, especially for processing you know past experiences.
00:14:22
Speaker
Yeah, that is such a great point. You know, I really do believe that the paranoia people often experience the anxiety. A lot of times they say that, you know, oh, I smoked marijuana for years and years and it was great. It was fantastic. Usually when they were younger, then at a certain point, it's like the fun stops. Switches. Yeah.
00:14:45
Speaker
And as you said, I think that's an indicator that you need to reevaluate your relationship with the substance and why it is that you're using it. Yeah, and it's it's like in my training and one things that we learned was like a symptom is something halfway out. So like what we're starting to experience is the expression of something. And so sometimes paranoia is like if you look at that, it's like that's about feeling unsafe. That's about not trusting your surroundings. And so it's like if that ever comes into the space, it would be something that I would use, it would be like, okay, well, let's take a moment.
00:15:16
Speaker
And so ah there would even be techniques of like, if someone tells me in advance, like I get really paranoid, then what we would do is, well, before anything was taken, we'd sit down and we'd really discuss like, okay, well, do you feel safe right now? Do you trust me right now? And then kind of reminding them, like, as the, you know, if it starts to Kind of kick in it's like so what has shifted and it's just really drawing awareness to these experiences because often what happens when people have like a bad trip is because they're trying to like turn away from whatever is happening instead of turning towards and it's like that turning
Navigating Negative Experiences and Safe Settings
00:15:50
Speaker
away is then the medicines like no no no. We're going to look at this right now. And that's often when like people don't have a great time. So I just wanted to you know i wanted to party. I wanted to have fun. And then all of a sudden, whatever they're taking is like, now we're going to have a deep, dark look itself. It's like, shit, I'm not in the right place for this. So I find it's like, when you have the right setting and the right container and the right support, that there isn't really a bad trip. It's more just like being with the experience, which 100% can be difficult and overwhelming.
00:16:19
Speaker
But it's like, I just grew up with all the stories of like, oh, someone took too much of this and they jumped out of a wall, they jumped off a roof or that, you know, whatever those things are. And I'm not saying they don't happen, but in a safe space with the right type of sitter with them, I don't think they happen as often.
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there are risks involved with anything. You can, you know, have a heart attack from eating too many cheeseburgers. So you got to be careful with everything you put into your body. But, you know, another interesting form of paranoia that happens with cannabis a lot is people get like a ultra self-reflective and start to irrationally beat themselves up over and almost nothing really.
00:16:56
Speaker
um Do you find that sort of taking that ah method of looking into yourself helps to relieve that as well? I actually haven't seen folks really end up the like beating themselves up with the experience. It's been much more of like a greater sense of like empathy and compassion for self. And I i don't know if that's like there will be things like people will reflect on and be like, you know, I didn't maybe do this well, or I could have done it better.
00:17:25
Speaker
But there seems to be this general safe, like safety in the body. And so folks seem to be able to do that without the same, I guess, like berating that they might do if they were in a different setting. But I think, again, that does come to like, what is the container? Like where? Because I think like we're we're in a group setting, we're with friends.
00:17:44
Speaker
And then sometimes we start to like judge ourselves and feel like we're being judged. Where when folks are working with me, like I know they're high, they know they're high, like they're coming there also to do some like deep work and deep reflection. So it's kind of different. It's like often I think the paranoia or that like, that like a sense of like being in trouble isn't really there because we know, I know what their intention is, and they do as well. It's very different. We're trying to be like out in the world, like, the closest I've had to like a bad trip, for example, like with any medicine, anything I'm on is like, if I'm trying to be like, keep it together, or keep it together, keep it together. And it's like, I'm not in the right place for it. It's like, then that's when shit starts to go a little wiry. And that's, you know, and so it's more so it's like, and I i don't, I don't really do that now. Because I also feel much more solid in myself. And I usually trust
00:18:31
Speaker
whatever medicine I'm taking that it's like, it's going to show me what it's going to show me. And we're just godspeed, I guess. Yeah. I mean, it really comes down to set and setting as they always say, and setting being so important. I mean, if you're somewhere where you feel unsafe, you're going to have a negative experience. It's just going to happen. But if yeah done within the correct container with a sitter, I mean, the the chances are ah in my view, or at least in my experience in the high 90 percentile that you're going to have at least a productive experience.
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah, and it I believe that as well. like i i And I've sat with people when they have had like Oh, rough, rough, rough times. But it's different. It's different because it's like you can process it, you can be with it. And having someone witness your pain is sometimes the most healing thing. So it's like when we're reliving these moments when we're feeling down on ourselves or on experience, but we have someone with us who's like I remember having experience once where I was just so in
00:19:38
Speaker
like reliving like a deep trauma and it was in like, it was in a group setting. And we had a thing where it's like you just raise one arm up and someone will be there. And I had a sitter next to me who was just like such a wonderful energy. and I just to remember I put my arm up and they were right there and they just grabbed it and I just like could cry and release.
00:19:55
Speaker
and like really get in touch with what I was with. They didn't need to know what I was with, but it was like I had the support that I needed. um And so I could kind of process it in real time with support. And that's what, you know, like my goal is just to make sure anyone I work with feels safe. Like at the end of the day, like I want them to feel safe because it's not up to me where their journey goes. I trust their body and I trust the medicine to bring them where they need. I'm just there to again,
00:20:23
Speaker
be the container so that they can go to these places. And that's really all we can do. Like if we're going to be guides, we're going to be sitters, like we just need to make sure that everyone feels as safe as possible. And so that means like regulating moving through whatever's coming up for us so that the other bodies in the room can do the exact same thing and move through whatever's coming up for them.
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the, the, the plants are in the driver's seat. Um, I was talking to, uh, a shaman that I w I've been training under one of, I've been training under a few different shamans, uh, Hamilton South there and, uh, someone he's been, uh, training with, uh, Bloom post. And she had told me a story about her facilitating a San Pedro ceremony. And she said that like during her facilitation.
00:21:11
Speaker
She had taken the substance as well. And it was just onset was, was becoming a little intense, more intense than she thought. And she had asked, you know, the head medicine spirit of San Pedro, you know, how am I going to hold this space for these people? Like I'm starting to get really deep into this. And she had told me that, uh, like the medicine had responded to her and and said, you know, you're not running.
00:21:35
Speaker
this, this show, you're the inflight entertainment. And what you just said,
Trust and Finding the Right Psychedelic
00:21:40
Speaker
just reminded me of that. I think it's a great point. That's brilliant. Yeah. And I think, I think one of the things that I really enjoy about this work is that there's not the same like power dynamic that is often in like the therapy client world. Because I felt that always kind of just didn't really sit right with me, whereas like a client would come in they're overwhelmed, they're depressed, they're they have all these symptoms of whatever they're experiencing. And they're like, okay, so here it is, I need you to fix it. And I'd be like, I don' i don't know what will fit like, here's some techniques or let's talk about it. But at the end of the day, I just felt like, I don't know exactly what it is that's going to help you the best, but we can try to figure it out together. Where in this work,
00:22:23
Speaker
It's like, it's not, I can be very comfortable in the I don't know, because it's not up to me. It's really up to the individual I'm working with and the medicine. So it's like, I will help them to make the intentions and really do what I can to like get them to that space. But at the end of the day, like I really do trust their body and their nervous system and the medicine to get them to the place that they need to go. And so it's like, I feel like that's a just a much more it's just more like we're more equals in the space and it's like working as a guide like I will help guide you through and maneuver through but I can't bring you there you know like it and I feel like it's just more it's also so much more empowering for the person that's been in the space.
00:23:06
Speaker
Yeah, and like, you know, what works hand in hand with that is not taking the experience away from them if it seems like it's going wrong, because it's not your place either to impose yourself on to their experience. It's very important that the experience wraps itself up in the way that it sees fit because I mean, anybody who's been down the psychedelic path, at least the people that I've spoken to would agree that there seems to be some sort of an intelligence behind whatever substance you're using. And each of those substances has a different type of intelligence behind it. And if you can trust in that intelligence, it will guide you to, you know, again, as I said, a productive experience, not always positive, happy in rainbows, but productive.
00:23:49
Speaker
Yeah, and I completely agree with that. like I do feel like there has to be and like like there has to be kind of a trust of self. And if you can't do that, at least trust of the medicine. And so and that's why I feel like like with cannabis, with MDMA, with some of these more hard opening medicines, it's easier to trust. Sometimes like the psilocybin experience, because there can be nausea that can go with it,
00:24:14
Speaker
people can have a little more of a bumpy ride going in because it's like, I don't feel comfortable in my body. Now I'm having these experiences. um And so it's kind of interesting to see like, that's kind of why I feel like people have to find what medicine works best for them, just to really decide like, what is it that actually allows you to get into this space?
00:24:32
Speaker
Because sometimes I've worked with some folks like, oh, this is it. Like, this is so healing. not feel Yeah, it was kind of healing. But you know, maybe I'll also try something else. And it's like even just dipping the toe in the water in a safe way in these medicines, I think is so important. Because I mean, I kind of believe it's like the reason they've been kind of shut out for so long is because they are so powerful. They show us so much like they lift the veil on experience and of life and kind of the everything we're being sold,
00:24:59
Speaker
And it's like, you know, if everyone's instead exploring their own self in a very deep and meaningful way, like the planet is just gonna look so different. Yeah. And you know, I like to think of these substances as all being part of the same mandala and each of them has a role in allowing you to discover something else about yourself or like explore a different facet about yourself, nature, the universe, because I mean, if you really look at it, we are all nature. We are all part of this, this earth, this biosphere, the same, you know, quote unquote guy and intelligence. So it does seem to me that these things, each of them have a role to play.
00:25:37
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I think last time we spoke, I think you said your medicine was psilocybin. Is that still the case? That's my main. Yeah. I do like DMT as well. And cannabis. Those are the three that I really love. Yeah. Yeah. They are. It's like I did, I, I so funny. Like, so when I did one of my, like, met at my psilocybin journeys and I was like, ready. I was like, I am like, I'm ready to do the work. I was used to working with cannabis and so like cannabis, I feel like is like I step into this space and she's like, welcome and like, we'll just show me things and like, which just feels like one, like if I'm open to her, she'll just show me everything. It was so, I was like, I'm here. And it was like, um, um, excuse, like it was like a humble yourself of it. I was like, Oh my God, I'm so used to working with cannabis. It was basically, I was like, Oh, ah just like, what do you want to show me? And I was like, well, what do you want to know? And I was like, Oh, shit. Okay.
00:26:31
Speaker
And I was like, in the experience, I was like, talking to myself, trying to prepare my questions to talk to psilocybin. And it was like, you will call us mycelium. I'm like, okay, sorry, my bad, mycelium. um And it's like, so then finally, like, it was like, you need to take more medicine. I was like, okay, I'll take more medicine. And so I was like, really trying to like, I felt like I was kind of courting mycelium psilocybin in the experience. And um finally, after I did it, like,
00:26:57
Speaker
but it felt like this very big, ancient, many entities. And while I was speaking to them, I was like, okay. I was like, so, I was like trying to figure out like what, and I was asking questions and it was, they were kind of like, ah. And it was like, don't come to us with this. I'm like, what do you mean? It's like, use cannabis for this. Like use us like for fun. It's like, oh, it's like, can I bring you to concerts? I was like, yes. It's like, okay, great.
00:27:21
Speaker
So then I like sat with that for a while. I was a little disappointed because I was like, I really wanted to have like this big psilocybin experience. So I did another journey kind of months, months, months later. And again, set the intention was really going in far more humbled and like ready to like do it and again i didn't have any of those big like it was very like the beautiful visuals of like alien technology and things like that and um i noticed like the loudness of the experience is so interesting like stepping into the space and it goes from like my voice into my head to like.
00:27:56
Speaker
all kinds of voices, like it just feels like there's so much happening. And so I was like, grounded in it and kind of like maneuvering it. But it's, again, it was like, No, this isn't really your space for that. Like I didn't, I didn't even cry, which was like, usually processing big things or getting in touch. Like I use I used to like, laugh so hard. And I didn't even do that. It was more like I was in awe of what I was seeing, but didn't really do like the deep, soulful work. So it was really interesting. It's like, I'm like, okay, they told me I wasn't their medicine, or they weren't my medicine. But I just kind of was like, mushrooms are pretty tricksy. So I don't know if I'll trust them. And I probably will still do like I'll try another journey again down the line because these things I think can change and we can grow but it was really interesting for me to be like trying to like get this information like humble yourself before us and don't come here for this. I was like, okay, I'm so sorry.
00:28:47
Speaker
That's so relatable. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Humble yourself. It's always a thing that they say to me as well. It's like I come in with this big intention and they're just like, no, you're going to sit down, shut up and listen and do the work. yeah If you don't mind me asking, what were the doses that you were doing?
00:29:05
Speaker
Um, i both times it was like two grams, which for me is like, it's not huge
Personal Healing and Integration with Psychedelics
00:29:10
Speaker
or for kind of like body size and everything. It'd be kind of like a medium dose. And I'd go, it was like, I did start it with two. And then I did a booster dose after when they're like, take more, which is I think two and a half. And then the other, the other one was two again. And so it was like, which for me, like if I take, like I take 0.5 and I usually would, like, I would never take more than 0.5 going like to a concert or out in the world like that's kind of like I also have enough respect for the medicine and my own body to know like it's I think I did to Me and a bunch of my friends We did other psychedelic guys did like a we did a grandma went to Meow Wolf in Denver Which is basically like a giant warehouse of psychedelic adventures and like that all of us wandering around we're like wo we are We are very much in it, um which was like fun and it felt very safe, but now it's like I don't know if I do that again, right this moment. But yeah, those other doses were about to and I'd explored I do more of it. It's like I was able to commute, I was able to see so much. And it just felt like i've I've had different types of experiences with other medicines where I can really get into deep, like heart opening and get to like really
00:30:22
Speaker
just really big matter really big like pieces of self um but that isn't that that just that i haven't got it from that kind of yet Yeah. In my experience, the, when you reach the depths of these types of, uh, experiences, it doesn't take as much to get you there again. You know, yeah like I can't take a gram and go have fun anymore. It's just too much. I will, yeah I'll have to like get myself away from whatever situation I'm in. yeah Um, like you said, a half a gram would be like the maximum. And even then I would still be scared that something would go down.
00:31:00
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like though, when you step into this work, and you step into this space, you really do gain a reverence. You know, like, I think when especially when you're younger, like, I'd hear people be like, let's get fucked up. And then they have like a fucked up time. It's like, there, it's like, no surprise, like you set the intention, you know, and it's like, they' like oh, God, everything went to hell. I'm like, and it's only looking back now. I'm like, well, what was your intention for the experience?
00:31:24
Speaker
And it's like you kind of asked for it. And so it's like looking at it now where it's I and like, like I had a very big medicine experience just a few weeks ago. And so I've kind of taken a little break from everything so I can really allow myself to integrate, like really sitting with things that are coming up. So I feel like like integration from these things can take weeks, months and it's like I'm really trying to like trust my body with that and I don't want to bypass. Like I don't want to like sometimes I've noticed because like I i now do interviews for psychedelic sitter schools so people who want to step into this work. um I'll interview them and it's interesting kind of noting like the people who can really sit with the big medicine experiences and process it and be with it
00:32:10
Speaker
um And then the other folks who, because they just didn't, they weren't taught, they've kind of just been exploring this on their own. They're like, Oh, I had a huge experience. I need to understand it better. So I'll have another big medicine experience. And not recognizing that actually, sometimes we need the break to really fully integrate from these things that come up. And so it's it's really interesting to note, like kind of intuitively, now that was just my own senses, like, I don't need to do anything else.
00:32:39
Speaker
right now, it's like, I just need to continue to land and continue to sit with it. And then, you know, if I do get the indicator of like, Oh, maybe you could, you know, maybe you could try something or like, I haven't even like, I haven't even smoked cannabis in weeks because of it, because I'm really just like, I don't need to alter anything right now, I just need to continue to land. um And so it's nice to have this kind of very different relationship with these things that I really ever have had before.
00:33:05
Speaker
Yeah, and you know a lot of the people that you say would come through and aren't are just trying to integrate their big experiences. A lot of those people have sort of like a spontaneous spiritual experience when they weren't hoping to because Again, as you said, we were not educated in this culture to have reverence for these medicines and to understand their their potential and their power. A lot of times you just go to a party, you take a bunch of mushrooms or a tab of LSD or something. And, you know, nine times out of 10, maybe, you you know, you'll have a great time. The music will be amazing. You'll see a bunch of colors and you'll have a great time with your friends.
00:33:44
Speaker
But then sometimes you find yourself having to go into somebody's bedroom or something like that and just crumble into their bed and have a experience with your darkness or something. And those are the types of experiences that people need to really integrate because Again, we don't have that education. We're not taught in school that these substances can be used for medicinal, spiritual or just exploration of consciousness in the universe at large. You know, we're just taught to stay away.
00:34:15
Speaker
Yeah, and but like, I was definitely never taught anything about any substances like I was never taught how to responsibly use alcohol. I was never taught how to responsibly use anything like not even like food wasn't you know, it's like we've kind of grown up in a culture of excess. And it's like then we kind of have to explore these things. And I just like in college used to just drink to get drunk like there was not like an enjoyment like we'd have like a shot of something and then a drink of juice like it it was there was no intention with any of it and then when it came to like psychedelics it was the same it was like I remember the nervousness I would feel excited heard all these horror stories and I would usually have quite nice experiences
00:34:58
Speaker
But again, we were all just kind of exploring in the dark. like Now there's so much information out there, which I'm so grateful about. And i I'll teach my own son about like safe psychedelic use and like information and things where it's like my dad used to talk about his own... like he He always said like he tried every drug except heroin because he hated needles.
00:35:19
Speaker
so it was like talked about and I remember him sharing once like there was a guy he'd done LSD and he climbed to the top of a telephone pole and jumped off because he thought he could fly and the dude broke his legs and then they had to call the ambulance it's like and he wasn't necessarily telling me that I think to terrify it was more like this is something that happened And, you know, we need to just be, you know, a little aware that these are things that can happen. But he was never like, this would be your proper dose. <unk> This is the set in setting. And I don't think he knew that either. But i I really feel like the education piece around any of these, you know, like, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna drink, it's like, okay, it's like, well, how do you know when it's enough? How do you you know, like, just things like that are not really taught and in our culture, we're just,
00:36:05
Speaker
especially younger, it's like, are you just numb it, it's fine. Like they'll grow out of it instead of like where we could start trying to educate in a different way instead of abstinence, which doesn't work. We know preaching abstinence just doesn't work. So it's trying to find a balance.
00:36:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you said responsible use and like it made me sort of chuckle because we've never been taught anything about responsible use. No, it's either stay away or, you know, good. You know, we we live in this weird culture of dichotomies of good and bad.
Therapeutic Process and Session Structure
00:36:40
Speaker
um You know, love and hate, black and white, Republican, Democrat, it's it's either all one side or all the other side. There is no middle ground. There's no gray area. There is no ah distribution of knowledge of responsible use. It's crazy. I know. And harm reduction, I feel like is so important. um Because it's part of this. And again, like educating people that integrating from these experiences takes so much time, especially the big ones. And like, that's one of the things like I offer support for folks who need integration support, maybe they've gone to they've gone to like, Costa Rica, and they've had a very big ayahuasca experience, however, then they're back home, and they don't actually have support.
00:37:21
Speaker
to like make sense of it and so it's like trying to offer support for things like that can be really important. Just because it's like we might have these big experiences and then I could cable then go back to your life and cycle how it's like my life is nothing what I thought it was when I left because I've got in touch with all this and so it's really you know and letting people know that.
00:37:42
Speaker
Sometimes just being with it, you know, writing about it, journaling about it, connecting to it in a different way doesn't necessarily mean you need to also take more medicine because ah it's then it's like you're you might just be getting like deeper in the weeds with all the different things that can come up instead of let's like work with this one piece first and help like let like have that land in the body and then maybe do more medicine.
00:38:05
Speaker
Absolutely. And going back to your work, I'd love to just sort of run through exactly what you do from start to finish. And I guess if I were to um sort of predict what the very first stage would be, um I would say it's probably screening, correct? Do you have like a a screening process when people come to you?
00:38:28
Speaker
So I start with like a free discovery call where I just kind of like 20 minutes to talk to someone and figure out like, what are, like, what is drawing them to this type of work? Cause it's always interesting to see like, what is it that's making you feel like this right now? And so I'll kind of also give them a bit of background to myself and kind of have an understanding of like what it is they're interested in. Um, I don't work with folks that might have personality disorders just because it hasn't really been proven that this type of work can be of benefit. They need you need quite a big supportive kind of medical team. um So in the right place it can, and there's more research that's going into that. But in general, psychedelics and kind of different personality disorders don't always mesh together. So that would be kind of one of the main things that my I might recommend like them doing.
00:39:12
Speaker
Working with something else or looking into something else um and then after the discovery call if they decide to move forward i usually tentatively kind of schedule a prep session so we'd be able to talk more but in that meantime i send them all kinds of paperwork where it's like in the paperwork i really outline like the exact experience what they can expect.
00:39:31
Speaker
really what kind of like, what does this experience really deeply entail? um And there's also a safety questionnaire to really figure out like, again, like, are there any reasons that maybe this work wouldn't be beneficial for them. And it's really interesting, once I send on the paperwork, I've had someone before be like, no, this is not for me. I'm like, wonderful. So like, so sorry, should I pay for that? I'm like, no, you don't have to pay for the prep session. Like, I'm not going to prepare you for something that you're not actually going to do. um And it's great because they're intuitively connecting and kind of self selecting them themselves out of the process because they're realizing this work isn't right for me right now. And it's usually just a not now like it might be a down the road. It might be you know, but maybe not right that moment. But if they want to move forward, we'd look at Ben having a prep session. And so in that we'd really discuss like intention and music. And again, what is the sentence setting?
00:40:24
Speaker
So I've been doing a lot of this work in people's homes because that's where they feel safest, which I love getting to do. So I bring everything from, except the cannabis, which they supply themselves, but I tell them exactly what to get. But I bring like a mattress. I bring the snacks because the main side effect is like people are going to be a little hungry after. And I really kind of get everything set up so that they can have a space in their own homes. They don't have to worry about driving anywhere. And it's usually their sanctuary, bring the music, everything like that.
00:40:51
Speaker
But in the prep session, I'm also again, we're talking about intention, you know, people are like, Oh, I feel blocked. I feel anxious all the time. I'm depressed. And the way I work with intention is like, Okay, we don't need to bring that in, like, we don't have to bring that into the space, you're living it every day. So like, let's envision those things are gone, you're no longer blocked. It's like, what are you experiencing instead, because I want those new neural pathways to start firing, I want their brain to start going down this other pattern so that when they're in the medicine space, it already knows where to go. And so we'll figure out certain words or phrases that when they're actually in the medicine session, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm connecting them to connecting them to breath and connecting them to intention. And so if they decide to move forward after that, then we'd be able to schedule a medicine session. And so the way with cannabis, I do like two either three hour sessions or two five hour sessions. um The first one kind of like opens us up and the second really allows us to land.
00:41:45
Speaker
So I always use the example of like a snow globe and we've kind of shaken it up in the first one and the second one those new those little pieces are like landing in different spaces. The five hours obviously more spacious like there's larger there's like two music sets we'd have a break in the middle. With either of them I can incorporate breath work and breath work just like amplifies the whole experience again. So I usually suggest that for the second session.
00:42:08
Speaker
because the first one people are all like getting into the space and really seeing like what is it like what's gonna come up and they can usually kind of test the their own intensity of it so you can just keep smoking like you can we do a smoking ceremony as the medicine session begins and then i guide them in like a 10 minute body scan meditation that just kind of like lands them in the space. And again, that safety in the body is cultivated. And then they get to explore and I check in with them, I repeat the intentions, I repeat the words or phrases that again, help them connect to this end goal. Like again, they're unblocked, they're fulfilled, there's clarity. And then after the two medicine sessions, we have an integration session where again, we're looking at like, what has come up now? Like, what's different? What is it that you really want to sit with?
00:42:54
Speaker
and it's from there again like this landing. but and I always tell them like integration is probably goingnna it's going to take longer. we're getting that You're probably going to need more than one this one session, um but more so it's like you just might not need more sessions with me. like Often they're in their own individual therapy and then they're like, I have hulk all this information to bring to them and there's new things to talk about. Because well once we do this series, sometimes I only see folks like once a year because it's like they can do such
Community Support and Cultural Movement
00:43:20
Speaker
good work in that space.
00:43:22
Speaker
that then they really don't have to kind of come back till after that or they now have new content or we can also work where it's like you could be, you know, we don't have to do like the deep, deep medicine space. Sometimes we can have a shorter session where people are in vibing, but then we're sitting up and talking. Because sometimes things come up in the space and like parts work is really interesting. So like, for example, you might get in touch with an inner child that's quite hurt and damaged or traumatized. And then we have the adult part of self that's quite logical and rational. It's like, we can get them to communicate. Like, what would the child say? What would the adult say? And so that doesn't necessarily always need like the deep medicine space. Sometimes it does. um So there's just like, I just love how there's so much to work with. And it's folks feel so safe in the experience. And they can explore these places in a way that they can't
00:44:11
Speaker
without taking medicine. So it's really nice, like, and the whole, you know, being able to kind of just give this whole series of like, okay, we can do this in like a couple weeks. And then let's kind of take it from there and see how you feel. And it's, I remember there was one time someone like recently I was working with like they took off their eye mask at the end of the experience and they looked at me and it was like they just got off a plane on right from holidays. It was unbelievable the change of whatever like they had been able to move through.
00:44:39
Speaker
was no longer being carried in their body. And I just, I looked at them, I was like, you look brighter. And they're like, I feel so light, like amazing. So it's like, the positives of that is just so amazing to get to see and be a part of. Yeah, it's amazing to see someone go into an experience as one person and then come out of it four or five hours later as a new person.
00:44:59
Speaker
yeah i would love to be able to do before and afters like it would just be like such a cool series someone I worked with before it worked with maps and they were saying the same like if they could have done like the before and after of some of these sessions like it would be remarkable I guess if anyone's gonna do this work like maybe take a picture like do a selfie before the session do a selfie after just to kind of compare because it really is interesting like what we wear and what we carry in our body And that's another reason why I do like the cannabis work is it's so somatic, like it really is very body focused, that it's really interesting then to to see what we're no longer holding after we've shed it.
00:45:37
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. um And you say that you go to these people. Do you also do like online sessions with people as well? Yep, I do that as well. It's like here, it's been more people who have been like, this is such new work for them. They're just like, you can come to my house. Yes, but I can also do it online, which is again, works better for folks that might be maybe a little more comfortable in the space not that like newbies couldn't do it but i think it's like the folks i've been working with this has been the first time they've ever had any type of psychedelic experiences so this is them kind of stepping in and the thought of getting to do it in their own home is just something that they're like so excited about but yeah this work can be done remotely it can be done virtually like this um the only thing is i can't supply the snacks that way but
00:46:23
Speaker
Otherwise, it's like pretty the setting can be the same. And again, the benefit of working with cannabis is the the safety you feel like I did a lot of my training when it started, I was doing a lot of it online. um And I remember thinking like, Oh, I do not know how I feel about trying to do a journey.
00:46:40
Speaker
with no one around me. um But it's like, at times I could energetically feel like it felt like we were all together. It's like, so this work is so wild. It makes sometimes no sense. But like, the way you can literally feel community because you're all on the same wavelength, I guess, is, um is really, really interesting.
00:46:58
Speaker
Yeah, it really is amazing. Um, I experienced that as well through training through blue morpho Academy. You know, um, we were training as sitter coaches and we were sitting for each other virtually, yeah which is just amazing. And you think like going into that, you know, I had like sort of the same thing that you were just saying, you know, I thought like, how is this going to go? Am I going to be able to do this? Like, do I feel okay? Myself taking something with nobody around me and just like having some computer screen talking to me, is it going to be weird? But. As you said, it's, this work is, it's wild and you really can feel that connection. The intention is, is really what you feel. Yeah. And I found it's like, I remember one of the trainings where I'd had like this huge experience. Um, and so it's like, and now I work with psychedelics at her school, but like when I was just, when I was doing the training.
00:47:45
Speaker
And they said, like, if you have a big experience, it's like, can be positive, can be negative. Maybe you just want to share what it is. You put it in the chat, we'll give you a breakout room and you don't know. So it's like, I literally went in and I was like, I need to talk to someone. And they just put me in a breakout room and I could share it. And then they're like, okay, do you feel ready to get back? And I was like, yeah, I do. And it was like, and it was that easy to kind of have that support, which is so important. And now I'll just tell folks, like, I, it's incredible because I am part of this wonderful community and so many of my friends are guides.
00:48:16
Speaker
We're like therapists, so if I'm going to have a journey, I will text them, be like,
Spiritual Exploration with Psychedelics
00:48:20
Speaker
heads up, I may be calling on you in a few hours, be on standby. And it's like and they're always there, and I'm there. like If someone's like, I'm going to do a journey, it's like, you let me know if you need anything, either like an integration chat or or like you know you just need to chat after or during.
00:48:36
Speaker
And it's like the sense of community that I have in this world is unlike anything I've had before. And I think it's because the work is so weird and wonderful and wild. Like it's just, it's, it I think it takes a very certain type of person like yourself to like step into this work um and to really be okay with like the weirdness of it. And I think that when you can find like-minded folks, it's just so refreshing.
00:49:02
Speaker
Yeah, and we all know how difficult it can be. And yeah I know personally that if anybody from the Blue Morpho Academy or anybody that I have interviewed or talked to from the podcast ever reached out to me and said, Hey, I'm having a rough time. I'm on psilocybin. I would be so happy and honored that they came to me and I would yeah want to help them, you know. And I know that there are so many people, again, through the Academy, through this podcast that I could reach out to. And I know that everybody would just say, hey, you know, you know, here's how you do it. This is what you're going through this, you know what I'm saying? And they would help you through the situation. Or even if I had some kind of traumatic life event happen, you know, I know that a lot of people that are in this community will be there for me because there's just
00:49:48
Speaker
There's such a ah strong sense of camaraderie between us. and And I feel like, yeah, like I completely agree. I've noticed that more and more. And I think it was also like being, I felt so accepted into the community of just like, come as you are.
00:50:03
Speaker
And great, where it's like, I feel like other times have been places and it's like, okay, come as you are. And the end, but we need you also to like fit this model or mold, where it was more like, no, come as you are. And we'll just kind of teach you some skills that'll help make you, you know, step into that space as a guide or as a psychedelic therapist.
00:50:21
Speaker
And it was like that acceptance while also being able to work on myself in the medicine space like allowed me to step in to community in a way that I definitely couldn't before. It really like it like such an honor to be able like to be accepted as like as we are. And so now it's like something that I try to do it's like other guides who are stepping into it. You know what I mean like you just come with the skills that you have.
00:50:46
Speaker
And let's take it from there. Like I like that there's so many programs where it's like, you don't need a master's, you just need like this, this drive, this calling. Cause I think like being a healer is a calling. Like you shouldn't have to like have woken up one day and be like, well, I better go get my master's so I can do this. It's like, or maybe you've already been doing this and now you just need to like hone those skills. Um, so I think it's like, it's, it's really powerful to find other people who've come from all these different backgrounds who can then step into the work.
00:51:15
Speaker
you know, income as they are, it's the way it should be. Yeah, and you know, the diversity of backgrounds is actually beneficial, you know, because it's it seems like these communities all around the world are pushing our culture in a positive direction in a direction of healing, ultimately, for everyone, it's not just this thing where you go to your doctor, he gives you a pill, you heal yourself and you're good. This is the type of healing that is like a lifelong cultural movement through a mass amount of people because one of the things that psychedelics make you realize is that we are not in this alone.
00:51:53
Speaker
We are in this together. We are part of a group, a massive group, an Earth group. And we we absolutely must see ourselves as a big community in order to heal in the proper directions because you see just nothing but chaos in the world right now. It's it's really concerning.
00:52:09
Speaker
Yeah, and I had like today I was interviewing for to be on the board for the Nova Scotia psychedelic society. And it was like, yes, I'm looking forward to hopefully being a part of that. um But it was really interesting. like I just love talking to medicine people like yourself and other people who are in the work in the world because it's like,
00:52:26
Speaker
it's a really it's it's such an interesting work to talk about and and especially coming here and bringing this work here in one way where it's like it's it's happening here already but then like me trying to build a business around it and so i'm introducing myself to so many people going to so many networking events and often i'll meet people like what is it you do So it's nice when I get to talk to people like, Oh, I have the best medicine experience with this is going on. It's like, Oh, my people like it's just so nice to like, find folks who are like, so in it. And you know, like, it's not our entire personality, but it's become such a big part of like,
00:53:00
Speaker
like I've just started this like I feel like I've been on a healing journey for I don't know my whole friggin life but like especially it's been so amplified in the last few years by stepping into the medicine work because it allows us to like look at things in such a different way and so I feel like when I meet that in another person I was like oh you've also been doing the hard ass work it's like nice to meet you.
00:53:25
Speaker
yeah You know, something that also, you know, I like to sort of switch gears just a little bit and talk about is like the, the other part of psychedelics, which to me, there's the healing aspect of it, which is absolutely fantastic. Amazing. But there's also the spiritual, uh, exploration, the cosmic exploration, the exploration for, uh, for truth, because it does seem like there's some sort of, uh,
00:53:55
Speaker
innate lost integral intelligence that you can gain from merging with these experiences. So can you talk a little bit about what you've learned about consciousness, about being a human, about nature, about the you know the universe, anything like that that you've sort of ah come to grips with along your path? um Well, recently I met the MDMA spirit.
00:54:20
Speaker
she was like a very like amazing and wild and like beautiful like she was like a purple fairy with like green iridesce it was just like she's like hi i'm like oh my god it's so nice to meet you but it's like things like that where it's like i'll have these experiences and in it it's just so like oh yeah i met the mdb like coming out of it and being like saying that to someone who doesn't who's not in that world be like sorry what happened But it's like I've had these types of experiences where like I felt so totally connected to self, but so totally connected to the universe and everyone else. Like at one point, I remember feeling like I've been spread out, like across the whole universe, and I was it and it was me. And it was just like the most calming, like, I guess, like connection with source, like in a very real way. um And I feel like even for myself, like I've been trying to explore my own spirituality in a different way.
00:55:10
Speaker
Um, cause I would have been raised Catholic and I kind of turned my turn away from a lot of acts. There was so much of it that just didn't sit right with me. And then as I got older, I was like, Oh, you're not really great women. You're not great to kids. It's like that. Like none of that is like appealing to me at all.
00:55:26
Speaker
And so I think I thought like that, like I really lump spirituality and religion together. And I think because of that, a lot of us have a lot of religious trauma, because it's like, I can't be spiritual, I have to be religious, where I've started more exploring, like, what does spirituality look like to me? Or how do I connect to that? um And I feel like it's as simple as like being in nature, being present, being mindful, and all these skills I've been able to cultivate, because I can actually sit with self.
00:55:54
Speaker
like I can actually sit in my own body and be like, this is fine. This is an okay place to be. So it allows me to like expand in a different way. But I've definitely had those really big powerful experiences of complete oneness and connection and clarity that I haven't really reached any other way. And you know, and I've been able to work with folks or it's like they come back from experience like I met the beginning of consciousness, I was there, I'm like, please tell me everything. And it's like, it's like I worked with, you know, someone who was healing from like a past life. And I've worked with people who are like, getting in touch with trauma, they've never, they didn't really know was there before, but their body held it. And like,
00:56:37
Speaker
all these things that on the outside, it's
Integrating Insights into Daily Life
00:56:40
Speaker
like the medical model can't necessarily explain. It's like, well, we don't really know about past lives. There's no proof. And it's like, this person just experienced it. So I don't know what to tell you. Like, it's like these things that it's, it really just, I feel like,
00:56:54
Speaker
Like I kind of am open to all of it because we have no idea. And so I'd much rather go in with the idea of like, especially when someone comes to me after an experience, they're like, this is what I experienced. I'm like, yes, 100%. I 100% believe that is what you experienced. That was very real. Um, and so I think like the spiritual needs this space, the mystical needs the space.
00:57:19
Speaker
like to be brought in because we have no we have no ideas like why not like why couldn't like maybe that person did go to the beginning of consciousness you know like especially like if you'd be like DMT like the DMT space is like one of the most wild like the like It's just such a remarkable thing and like at that sitter school now and at medicinal mindfulness, like they're doing DMTX. So they're really like having people put in the extended state and you can go there as a client and you can do DMT like you could be guided in the DMT experience.
00:57:50
Speaker
And it's like you could do like this accelerated healing. So it's a pretty you're in there for a short amount of time, but you're like breaking through your consciousness, you're meeting the entities, you're doing like all these really deep, interesting work. And it's like, how can you come back and be like, Oh, no, all we have is this like, physical world. That's all there is.
00:58:10
Speaker
Yeah, you know, you, you mentioned being open now, like you're open to all of it. I think that's such an important thing that a lot of religions don't really teach because religions kind of work on this like team mentality where if you're not on my team and you're on the wrong team, you're not first or last you ever seen Talladega nights um this recently. um But that's funny. It's interesting, though, that the psychedelic experience and that that ah oneness that you feel, it really does promote being open to all religions. And it makes me kind of understand that these religions, it's not that they're right, not that they're wrong, it's that they're all pointing toward the same thing.
00:58:53
Speaker
And each of them have a little piece of the truth, it seems, or they have a little piece of the path of truth because no one has the truth. Nobody knows. And it's one of my favorite Terence McKenna lessons is, you know.
00:59:09
Speaker
Follow plants not gurus, you know, nobody really knows we all have an idea we all sort of have our methods ah but we have to experience it for ourselves so and that's something that religions also don't really like to promote either because they want you to sort of rely on them to be the middleman for God when you can just take a mushroom and Merge with it and meet him yourself Yeah, and I feel like it's also like, again, that empowerment piece, like if everyone's feeling very empowered about their own spirituality, their own belief system, what's right and what's wrong, we don't need these systems of oppression, which is really what they are.
00:59:47
Speaker
And it's like this exploration into self. like I really sit with like what feels like truth to me. And like truth for me is like love, kindness. like I'm not saying truth for me is stealing from someone else or hurting. like I don't need to follow a religion to know right from wrong. And that's often the argument, um which I just don't buy. I don't believe. like again like people who are hurt will hurt someone else, people who have maladaptive ways, like maybe not the right ways to react to situations, because that's all they have had to work with. So they might make the choices that hurt someone else or, you know, hurt themself. Versus the people that are very grounded, very centered, it's like they're not usually going around, you know, destroying the world.
01:00:35
Speaker
However, all these other religions are often doing things in their own name. So it's like, I feel like it's really tricky. And it's like, I sit with what feels like truth for me. And it's again, it's like love and kindness. And I've never had a psychedelic journey that hasn't somehow connected to that in some way, you know, it's like, again, like, why are we keeping these medicines from people? It's like, well, if they learn that It's literally all in here. It's within you all the time. It's like you'll stop being, you know, a consumer and you'll stop, you know, spending money to all these other gurus.
01:01:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's another thing, stopping consuming, very, very difficult. And I think it's hard for people to come to grips with the capitalist society that we live in now and the value systems that it promotes when you have an experience of such oneness and beauty and love. I think that in terms of integration might be the most challenging thing to help people integrate and get through is chop wood, carry water after you've gone through an experience of such profundity.
Ethical Boundaries in Therapy
01:01:40
Speaker
It's tricky. And I think because sometimes people have a journey and they're like, they told me I'm supposed to be a guide. And it's like, then they just go sit for other people versus like, you can sit for other people. You also need like these skills. Like it's set setting and skill. Like we need that as well, because what happens is people end up hurt. They end up like in an unsafe space. And again, like we need to provide the safe container.
01:02:00
Speaker
But if we don't have the skills to do that, and we haven't done our own work, then you know like i I was often doing like intake calls for the clinic. And I get phone calls from you know from people who are like, I need to do medicine work. And then they'd explain what had happened. And often, it was like they'd have they'd had a traumatic experience somewhere else. um And they're like, I need to integrate from it. And then as they were explaining, I remember there was one person I talked to. I was like like, I cannot diagnose you. I was like, but these sound like,
01:02:28
Speaker
like a bit of post-traumatic stress. Like this, like it's like the way you're describing it. They had to pause because they were having like a flashback from the experiences they were talking. And I was like, you should go to your health provider. You need to explain like this is what's happening. I was like, I don't know if medicine right now is what you need. It's like, I think you might need like counseling support literally to heal from the medicine experience that you had when something came up and wasn't held.
01:02:50
Speaker
So it's like there there is this darker side to this work if we're not, you know again, having that reverence for the people who want to do it, but also for the medicines because they can bring up so much. um And so sometimes that's why we need like we need the screening or we need people to be honest with themselves about why they want to do the work and you know what is it that's wrong to do it.
01:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, and what I assume is going to show itself in the future are people who are doing this work and are unwilling to turn someone away because they're unwilling to turn away some profit. And I think it's very important that you are selective in who you decide to work with. It's not just as if someone is paying you for a service.
01:03:36
Speaker
it or hiring you for something. It's more like you are choosing who you're going to work with as a facilitator. I think that is a very important aspect of this that I think we can't really lose grasp of.
01:03:49
Speaker
Yeah. And especially like if you don't have like, what is your scope of practice? So again, like if you're coming from a place of like, you know, I've just recently started and I'm sitting for, you know, people that I know versus someone who's maybe like, ah you know, think of the shamans who've been doing this forever. And they can work with like the big experiences that come up. Or even sometimes like when you look at maps, like they have very specific rules. And even then there was breaches. So it's like, it's like, how do we find that balance of like,
01:04:19
Speaker
finding making a safe space making sure that people know their own scope and there is that pull though of like like i love doing this work and so sometimes like it was it would be challenging more so in the clinic as we would have got very we got much more clinical cases um and then it was like we would have a team of people cuz if someone comes with like.
01:04:39
Speaker
big trauma and they were like this and we know the work could help them but it's like how do we make sure we have a framework that can support them for the really big material and so sometimes like an individual and they're on their own.
01:04:52
Speaker
isn't the right setting for it. And it is going like so finding a clinic or finding like already here, I'm kind of building my own community of like, you know, like I know a doctor who could who's supporting people with ketamine and starting to support people with other medicines. And it's like, knowing like there are, you know, there is there are other places you can go to get these to get this help um for people that really have much more clinical concerns like there can be support for everyone if it's right for you.
01:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, how do you develop a protocol for something that hasn't really been thoroughly studied? It's it's very difficult. Yeah, and I think that's a it. That's why it was interesting being at the clinic when psilocybin was legalized because it was figuring out like, and we would be based a lot of it on the Johns Hopkins research, which is still limited, but at least was like looking at. So for example, like most for most psilocybin experiences, it's recommended that people aren't on any mental health medications and like, anti anxiety, antidepressant SSRIs SSRIs are kind of like when you have a combination of these different medicines, again, there can be
01:05:53
Speaker
um Risk of like serotonin syndrome so that's when the body releases far too much serotonin it can. Be very dangerous consumption cause death there's also just like there's just side effects of working with these medicines when we're on different. um You know prescribed meds and so it's like trying to figure out like but how do we work with people who can't.
01:06:16
Speaker
get off these antidepressants like they can't titrate off. They're too overwhelmed. and And so it's like really figuring out like how do we work in this space and it's still being explored. um And I guess that's kind of the one of the benefits of cannabis there aren't any contraindicators of like you know, if you're on antidepressants, anti anxiety meds, like you can still work with that and it's fine. Ketamine is quite safe as well. It does sometimes cause like an increase in blood pressure. So that's usually monitored before folks have an experience with that. And so it's just like figuring out like,
01:06:48
Speaker
certain medicines for certain experiences or certain medicines if you know like it's like I can't get off my antidepressants it's like okay well maybe psilocybin isn't for you right now and again it's always like just not right now it's like the way things are now isn't the way they're gonna always be but I think it's just kind of looking I it's like I've seen especially after like the how to change your mind came out on Netflix it's like the amount of people are like that's it psychedelics are for me And it's like, they might not be. So it's like, and I understand, like, when we're so, like, when we're really in it, when we're depressed, when we're overwhelmed, we just want anything that'll help. And it's like trying to figure out, like, this is still very new for the again, the Western model of medicine. And so it's like trying to figure out like, I really don't believe like they're trying, they're not trying to do more harm. But it's like, it is new. So it's like, we don't know what's going to work and what's not. And it's still being explored.
01:07:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, not to like look down on or judge traditional SSRIs, but it does seem that the psychedelic experience requires you to bring something to it, a very specific set of ah physical, emotional, and you know mental stability, really.
01:08:05
Speaker
yeah And part of that is not relying on a selective serotonin you know reuptake inhibitor to mess around with your your you know levels of serotonin. um And it would take a certain amount of work for someone to get off of those SSRIs or whatever medication that they are on.
01:08:26
Speaker
outside of any psychedelic or any psychedelic philosophy. It takes a lot for someone to you know to do that. And to me, SSRIs should be you looked at in that way. I think that doctors should promote going on them, using them as a tool to get you to a point where you can start to ah do the things that are necessary to improve your your mental health and then get off of them at some point. But it seems that a lot of doctors nowadays They prescribe them and then they just fill them for the duration of, you know, however long the person feels like they just want to take them. And they're not being given the proper counsel in my opinion on how to use these drugs in the correct way. Yeah. And sometimes there has to be like the weaning off of it. Like I've had a few friends and I've talked to clients who have like had to get off them and like the, how like jarring it is to then get off them and how long it takes like get back in touch with like what even is.
01:09:23
Speaker
like Because life is like this. That's kind of what it is. But so with SSRIs, it's more like this, and but it's like lower. it's like a It's like there is this numbing. And so it's like they usually they recommend like you titrate off and you're off them for like at least six weeks. And it's like that six weeks can be totally overwhelming because all of a sudden you're like reconnected to like just the experience of life as a human with a very like with a variable Emotional well-being and it it's just like it's a lot like being a person is so friggin hard as is and then it's like we add like these chemical imbalances which again like they have their place um but I think I do agree that they should be reassessed and I think some people like
01:10:03
Speaker
Sometimes we need we need those extra chemicals. They really can help ground us. But SSRIs can be so strong that i've had a i've I've really had a few friends and people I've worked with where it's like, it took a long time for them to feel like they're really coming back to self um after being ready to go off them.
01:10:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, they're wonderful tools when you use it correctly. And, you know, it gets even more complicated when you add benzodiazepines to that because a lot of times, you know, that you get put on multiple ah types of medications and benzodiazepines happen to be like the hardest thing to get off.
01:10:37
Speaker
yeah Aside from alcohol, they're the only drug that can kill you from withdrawal. So, man, our mental health status in this country is it's flawed beyond, well, not beyond repair, but I do believe the psychedelics are here to sort of show us the way in the mental health field.
01:10:58
Speaker
Yeah, I feel that too. And it's like, again, like trusting being able to like trust self, because I feel like we've had like the medical system has been put up here. um And I've like recently been like reading about like perimenopause and things for like women, which has been really interesting. So there's like a lot of misinformation about like even just like hormones for women where for years, it was like,
01:11:19
Speaker
don't go on them, they'll give you breast cancer. And now they realize all of that was based on one study, which has been totally debunked. And actually hormone replacement for women is very good for their body. And it's like, but all of that was like overshadowed because this one study came out and it's like, it's just so hard because it's like we can try to do our own research, we can try to figure out. And it's like, but even like the medical model, they're only taught what they're taught, they're only taught certain things and whatever they know at the time.
01:11:47
Speaker
And then those doctors come out, go out, and that's their information. And so I feel like it is it's like it's tricky to to like be in a place of being overwhelmed with your mental health, and then also feeling like, oh, and now I have to advocate for myself, and I have to do the research, and I have to figure. like It's a lot. It's a very overwhelming um experience, for sure. so it's Yeah and I like the Canadian mental health and everything it's all very similar like I think a lot of folks are are struggling with it and I'm not surprised it's why.
01:12:18
Speaker
There is this like push for psychedelics. I think people do want more natural, um, solutions for this. Like there's just so like, there's microplastics in our bodies. It's like, well, how do we like get away and like try to live a more natural life? Um, you know, the poor planet she's hurting and it's like, we could, if we're, if we're more connected to ourselves, I think we're more connected to the planet as well.
Mental Health Awakening and Optimism
01:12:42
Speaker
Yeah. Mental health is a full-time job and turning the ship around is.
01:12:47
Speaker
It's hard work. It's very hard work, especially when you have not just a few people, but ah mass communities, countries of people who are going through the same thing. It seems like all the Western civilized, quote unquote, countries are going through the same degree of mental health illness. Yeah, I think it is just it's.
01:13:06
Speaker
you know, I think it's part of whatever this like, whatever we're living through right now, you know, we're, we're here right now, I think we're put here for a reason, at this time and place to be able to like, where are we moving it towards, you know, like where, and I, I believe there's, you know, I'm an eternal optimist, I'm hopeful, I feel like there is like this renaissance and all these people that are waking up to this is like, I feel like that means something, like, I feel like there's a reason this is all happening as it is and like I don't know about you but I feel like things have just been like it's like accelerating year by year like it just seems like the intensity of experiences the intensity of things um and I don't know what that means but it feels like it's big it just feels like there's a lot that is occurring on the planet right now and there's a lot of people who are
01:13:53
Speaker
really clued into it. And it's like the internet has its place where it's like it can cause us to disconnect, but it can cause us to connect, you know, like it it allows for connection of experiences like you trained via the internet, I trained via the internet, it's like would have never thought that that was capable.
01:14:10
Speaker
to do that i could feel such a deep connection with people who i met on a screen and i was able to build real connections within life so it's like there's there's a lot of things that are happening and i don't watch the news because i feel like it's meant to bring me like way down there and make me feel like it's hopeless and overwhelming Um, so it's like I just try to live my life the best I can and then support others to do the same And it's like when you do that, it's like shit ain't so bad, you know I'm with you, you know the internet psychedelics all the crazy technology we're seeing all all of it. It's it's all
01:14:47
Speaker
They're all tools and it's all a proving ground. And we as humans have the responsibility to use these things in the correct ways and, you know, to to tilt our world, you know, ah toward love and compassion. And I'm with you. I am a eternal optimist as well. And I think people are amazing. People are awesome. I think we all have pure hearts under all of the layers of experience that we've been through. um And I think, honestly, I think we're going to be okay.
01:15:16
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'd like to think that too. And you know what? If we're wrong, we'll never know. It's like shit ends tomorrow. It'll be fine. You know, because it's true. Like, it no matter, I think no matter what it will, yeah, we'll be okay. And, you know, but it's taken a while, I think, to sit with that and to actually believe it and to trust in like, I have a son.
Hope for Future Generations and Gratitude
01:15:40
Speaker
So it's like, I feel like it's also like, I'm hoping for his sake, things are good, but I really do believe like, you know, like, he's a little joy boy, like, he's ah just a ball of light making, you know, making his way through like, make his way around the planet. And it's like, I feel like that's it, like, that's enough. Like, also, it's like making sure like the next generation, it's like saying, like, I get to support guides for stepping into this work, you know, I get to be a mentor, I get to like,
01:16:04
Speaker
help them step in and like build this community of changemakers who are gonna bring the planet to greater healing. like like it's It's just such a wonderful thing to be able to be a part of.
01:16:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's thanks to people like you, people like my teachers and the community of humans that are trying to, you know, bring this world to ah to a position of love and push us forward. um And, you know, again, I really think we're going to be just fine. And, the you know, the indication to me is that, as you said, people are just waking up at an insane rate.
01:16:39
Speaker
um And again, I really believe that it's thanks to people like you and people who are dedicating their life to becoming healers. And Angela, this again has been an awesome conversation, just like the last one was. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you so much for having me. It's always delightful to chat to you. So happy that I could have the time to, you know, to get to talk about this wonderful, wild, amazing work.
01:17:03
Speaker
Definitely. And before we wrap, I'd love for you to just share all the links, all places people can find you or contact you. Yeah. So Altered Healing is my company. I'm on, ooh, I'm on everything. I'm on Facebook and TikTok and I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram. You can get my website at alteredhealing.com. But yeah, you can find me, I'm out there in the ether, just ready to chat or to answer any questions that folks might have about this work.
01:17:30
Speaker
And all of that will be in the description of ah the episode below. Again, Angela, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you. Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day.