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Meaningful Reading Moments with Irene Sun
332 Plays1 year ago
Rush sits down with Irene Sun, author of God Counts and Taste and See. Irene is an intentional and thoughtful mother, and she shares invaluable keys for making the most of reading to our children. Irene and Rush talk about why kids’ books are effective to change the way they think, and how to know if certain books are too scary or sad or mature for young readers.
IRENE SUN ONLINE
Irene’s Church
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MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
God Counts: Numbers in His Word and His World
Taste and See: All About God’s Goodness
The Acrostic of Salvation
Learn more about the podcast here.
Timestamps:
1:26 - Irene shares about her family and church in Pittsburgh.
3:45 - What are some of the best habits you’ve cultivated in your family?
5:37 - Irene and Rush discuss the value of reading aloud with kids.
10:12 - How are kids books powerful to shape their hearts and minds?
19:30 - What about balancing spiritual depth and pure enjoyment of reading in the lives of our kids?
28:39 - Irene explores the instrumental role of reading with children in the most intentional ways.
32:17 - What books have your sons enjoyed most over the years?
37:30 - Farewell
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Purpose of Reading to Children
00:00:00
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Christian parents read to our children with the hope that our children would not merely love library, but love the library that God has given to us in which he reveals his character and himself.
00:00:19
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I'm Rush Witt and you're listening to Straight to the Heart, a podcast from New Growth Press. Each episode includes thought provoking conversations with leading Christian writers and thinkers. We hear who they are, what they believe, how they approach their work in ministry, and the moments in people who have changed their lives. In Straight to the Heart, we go beyond the books to connect with the remarkable people behind
Interview with Irene Sun on Children's Literature
00:00:43
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them.
00:00:43
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Today, we sit down with Irene's son, author of Taste and See and God Counts. Irene is an intentional and thoughtful mother and today she shares invaluable keys for making the most of reading to our children. We talked about why kids' books are effective to change the way they think.
00:01:04
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and how to know if certain books are too scary or too sad or too mature for young readers. I soaked up every minute of our conversation and I'm sure you will too. This is Straight to the Heart.
00:01:26
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And so it would be great just for you to tell me about yourself. Yeah. So I am a mom from Pittsburgh. I am a homeschool mom. So that kind of is my main job right now. My children are 15, 13, 10, and 5. And they're all boys. Wow.
00:01:51
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So it's the summertime, and because we tend to be quite rigorous in our humanities during the school year, summertime is for the math and the science. And so we continue with school in the summertime. The older boys are doing algebra in the mornings, and the younger ones are doing math and handwriting.
00:02:21
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continue to troop on.
Homeschooling and Pastoral Life
00:02:25
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I'm a pastor's wife. My husband is the pastor of a local Chinese church, Pittsburgh Chinese church, PCC. I love being a pastor's wife. I'm learning to embrace it as a calling instead of as a duty.
00:02:45
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Oh, when we first got married or when he was pursuing me, he was actually a lawyer. And so I thought, um, as a, I'm a PK. So I'm a pastor's kid. Um, I told my parents that I would never marry a pastor and look what happened.
00:03:04
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Never say never. Actually, my wife is a pastor's wife. And I know how hard it is. It's just on top of everything else. It is a calling. It's challenging. And I know that the kind of homeschool life and church life and putting all of that together makes for a very busy life. And I found in our family that one of the keys really is personally and as a family,
00:03:34
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cultivating habits that help us keep things together. Now, I wonder what's maybe one habit that you are glad that you've cultivated?
Cherished Reading Rituals
00:03:46
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Well, one
00:03:49
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One main reason why I've kept homeschooling is the luxury of having long breakfast and reading at our breakfast table every morning.
00:04:05
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In the beginning when the children were young, I started developing this habit of reading while they were eating because I found it to be just easier because they have something that they're occupied with. I tried to make quite elaborate breakfast in that I do cook all of my breakfast.
00:04:31
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So no cereal and milk for the boys, but mostly savory things like bacon, sausage, toast. And so I want them to associate reading with good food. And we always start with reading from the Bible. And now that they're a little bit older, we do a little bit of theology and then
00:04:59
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comes your favorite part, which is me reading out loud a book together. So we've been doing it for years now. And one of the reasons why I have not given up on homeschooling, because homeschooling for a voice can be kind of overwhelming at one time or another. But when I think about giving up these couple of hours at the morning table, eating breakfast and
00:05:29
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reading scripture and good stories together.
Childhood Influences and Christian Imagination
00:05:32
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It just keeps me going because I'm not willing to give that up yet. Yeah. So it's a great habit to have reading aloud to kids. And I wonder, were you raised with, you know, books being read aloud in your home? Do you remember one book that was read to you or reading one of the books that you read as a child?
00:05:57
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So I was not raised a reader. I think I've loved books since I was young, but I think that was the way that God created me. Because though my parents read a lot because they were in ministry, we did not have books in abundance. My parents were missionaries, and so we moved around a lot. We did not have an extensive library being
00:06:26
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just a poor, poor family in ministry. But I did just have fond memories of my mom telling me stories.
00:06:38
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And so they would tell me stories without the help of physical books. So I've always loved stories. But when I did start reading, I remember pulling off a book from my mother's very small collection. And it was a Chinese book called, which means the cry of a child.
00:07:06
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And I remember reading it for the first time and encountering these two children in the story who were Christians. So I was raised in Malaysia and actually different parts of Malaysia because my parents were missionaries and people in ministry.
00:07:33
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Malaysia is a Muslim country and most of the Chinese in Malaysia are Buddhists. So raising a Muslim country surrounded by
00:07:44
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people who worship idols, there were just not that many, I don't have many Christian friends at school. And yet in this book, The Cry of a Child, there were these two characters, a boy and a girl, and they were Christians. And it's funny because I suddenly had this urge to look for this book. So last year, I went online.
00:08:12
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And I found this, um, this small online bookstore in California that had one last copy of this book. And so, um, and so I purchased it and having held the book in my hand and touching the texture of the pages and having
00:08:37
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the weight of this tiny little book in my hand, I just started weeping because I think that's probably where some of my imagination came from. It was the beginning of my imagination of what it means to be a Christian. These two children in the story, they were
00:09:02
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they were persecuted for their faith in that the boy character in the story had a dad who was very opposed to Christianity and would beat and abuse him every time he went to church. And so for some reason that was my first encounter of other Christian children in life and they were not
00:09:31
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They were not real-life children. They were characters in the book. Wow. So as a Christian mom, how do you think that your faith may change the way that you approach reading with your kids? You've had this experience growing up, obviously, with books and reading, and how do you feel like your faith has changed the way that you approach or informed the way that you read with your kids?
00:09:58
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Well, even non-Christian parents see a lot of benefits in reading to their children, reading with their children. But I think what sets Christian parents apart when it comes to training our young readers is that we train our children with the hope that they would become word lovers because Jesus is
00:10:25
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the visible word of God. And God's children are book lovers because God communicates himself and his promises through not merely a book, but a library of books and a library of ancient
00:10:42
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ancient books of different genres. Because in the Bible itself, we have stories, we have poetry, and we have letters, and the Lord has given us this rich heritage of words and books. And Christian parents read to our children with the hope that our children would not merely love library, but love
00:11:09
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the library that God has given to us in which he reveals his character and himself through us. And so that is the hope I have as I'm reading to my children.
00:11:27
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All of my friends know that I love food. And you know who else loves food? Children love food. And I want you to know about Irene Son's book, Taste and See, all about God's goodness. This beautiful book will help children see God's goodness and love in the food he provides for his children all through the Bible.
00:11:52
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from fruit trees in the garden, manna in the wilderness, and bread and fish by the Sea of Galilee, to the final, wonderful banquet spread in heaven. Children and parents learn to taste and see that the Lord is good. Irene's son and illustrator, Hannah Lou, provide a bird's eye view of the Bible, using the idea of hunger and feasting to tell the story of redemption in a fresh and memorable way for children and their parents.
00:12:22
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Children ages 4 through 7 will learn that everything their hearts hunger for can be found in Jesus. Each meal we share until Jesus comes is a time to remember God's goodness and care for all of his children. Families will learn how the whole Bible celebrates God's love for his hungry people.
00:12:44
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Taste and See is the first release in the Biblical Theology for Kids series, and you can learn more at NewGrowthPress.com.
00:12:57
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I'm reminded, you know, Ecclesiastes 12, 12 tells us that the writing of books is endless and you don't have to go far to know that that's true in the world, going to a public library or one of the many bookstores.
Discerning Truth in Children's Literature
00:13:12
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And while books are an enormous gift to us, even a gift of God's common grace, it also presents a great challenge because it means that there are lots of messages that parents and kids contend with
00:13:26
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And so I wonder as you've thought about this, what are some of the popular messages you see coming through the kids section of our public libraries or bookstores?
00:13:38
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So we live in an age where children are breathing the air of relativism and narcissism, for better or for worse. And so pithy deceptions like you determine your own truth or follow your heart. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder are everywhere. They cover the shelves of
00:14:03
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our libraries and our bookstores. But we have to, as we're reading with our children, we remind them of what is true. Because we do not determine truth, the Lord reveals what is true. And we are to follow Christ and not our own hearts because
00:14:24
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human hearts are crooked and deceitful and beauty is not in the eye of the beholder because absolute beauty is found in a seemingly ugly cross where price died in our place. And so the only way I think we can disciple little readers is to read
00:14:47
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with them and rush right before I came on I was outside weeding with the boys and it is very easy for adults and children to get very distracted.
00:15:02
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we are doing lawn work. And so I have found that the best way to train children to do lawn work is to do it with them and to talk to them, to have some good music playing in the background, to weed with them, to show affirmation when they got some good roots as they were pulling the weeds. And in the same way, I think that is how we disciple
00:15:28
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little readers. That is how we shepherd little readers so that they know how to behold our good shepherd because we are reading for communion with God. That is the goal of why we read. Christians read
00:15:47
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not with the mind of the world, but with the mind of Christ. And the only way we can do this effectively is to read with our children often and out loud so that we can enjoy the stories with them. We can enter and travel into these worlds with them. And I'm not afraid to read
00:16:12
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untrue things with my children because I am there to show them which are the flowers and which are the weeds and that is safety for them that I am with them as we are exploring the world together.
00:16:26
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I read, I want to say that your intentionality as a parent is really a beautiful example to all parents. It's a beautiful example to me because it reminds us of how important it is for us to take seriously this work of parenting. You've already mentioned that there are so many different messages and kids, because of the usefulness of books, have access to them.
00:16:52
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And they are effective for good or bad. They are effective to mold and shape the way that children think that that's true of us too. We're all people as parents, we're people in need of change.
00:17:07
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to steal a tagline where people in need of change helping people in need of change, namely our kids as parents. I wonder why do you think kids books are so effective at changing the way the kids think?
00:17:23
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You know, I actually believe that perhaps that's the way that God created us to be. Because if you think about it, on the day of his resurrection, when Jesus rose from the dead, I mean, this is pivotal in human history. What did he do? He walked a long distance with two disciples who did not recognize him. And of all the things he could have done or said that day,
00:17:53
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Jesus showed them how to read. Jesus taught them how to read the books of Moses and the prophets in light of the Messiah. And that evening he took bread, blessed it and broke it and gave it to them. And it was in communion with Jesus their eyes were open and they beheld God himself. And so
00:18:19
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I just find that so fascinating because Jesus is God. He could have just spoken, right? And then whatever he said would become the Word of God. But instead, he taught them how to read the Old Testament. And I find that to be...
00:18:42
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a model for us. I think that is a great model for how the Lord wants us to communicate with our children. And when we read out loud to our children, we're walking about three to four miles an hour. And with a toddler, you know, we are walking about one to two miles per hour. But we worship. We are worshiping with our children.
00:19:08
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as we open the Bible, as we are opening theology books, and as we're reading board books about God, we worship a God who walks with us, and so we want to reflect his wisdom and his method of teaching as we walk our children through books.
Balancing Enjoyment and Discipleship in Reading
00:19:30
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I think that your experience may be similar to mine as a parent in that when we are trying to be intentional about parenting, especially when it comes to reading in books, that there can be this overwhelming sense that all of the reading that we do needs to be really focused on
00:19:51
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on discipleship or deep theology and as important as that is there is another aspect to reading maybe it's a little more of the common grace gift of books and reading that sometimes can be lost and that's really maybe enjoying the story time as something to simply be enjoyed and so I think that you know some parents like us
00:20:17
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feel that tension of trying to balance the two. I wonder what that's been like for you. Have you felt that tension? And maybe what have you done to navigate it? So we started our conversation talking about food. And so when I'm reading to my children, I usually have them sit down and enjoy the kind of breakfast that they like. And so that
00:20:46
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is one layer of enjoyment. I am reading scripture while they're eating bacon. And so when you pair scripture and bacon together, so I'm hoping that is an enjoyable part of their day. But also I don't quiz them afterwards. And it's not school time as in I'm not going to ask them questions about the characters. I'm not going to,
00:21:15
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quiz them about the even the Bible verses that we read because sometimes when I see that a child is Distracted I would try to pull them back with with a quiz so I said, okay, I'm gonna read a verse in the Bible and I want you to tell me which book it is from and depends on the the ages of the children I think but
00:21:44
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But because it has become a rhythm of our lives, the children cannot wait for me to pick up the book that we're reading because they are so invested in the story. Right now we are reading the Star of Kazan and by Eva Ibbitson, who is one of the authors that we're exploring right now.
00:22:12
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they are the ones who are begging me to read another chapter and sometimes I have to read the discipline one and say guys we really need to get on with our day and they are the ones who are begging me like mommy you have to read
00:22:27
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eternal life is going to happen. And so, um, you know, there's just something about stories that is so compelling and so riveting that, that I don't need to be the one who, who tell the children, okay, now we're going to be reading. And, and they are the ones who are urging me to read at this point.
00:22:48
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Yeah, I think the analogy that you used to describe the habit of reading as a little bit like our eating habits is interesting. And it brings to mind the question of, you know, how should parents or maybe how do you handle
00:23:05
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the potential for kids to be reading something that is sort of like junk food. You know, it goes a little bit beyond just enjoyment of reading and it doesn't have the same meaty, nutritious biblical content. And I wonder, have you found a place for that or how have you handled that?
00:23:27
Speaker
That's a really good question because it's true. Stories are to the soul as food is to the body. And for a very limited time, as we see our children are growing very, very quickly, parents have the authority over what our children eat and read.
00:23:48
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we have the authority to say yes, no, and not yet. So the willingness to distinguish truth from falsehood, the beautiful from the ugly, is strangely a radical and countercultural act against the spirit of our age. And so as shepherds to our little readers, we do need to help our children to
00:24:17
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to distinguish what is true from what is false and what is beautiful to what is ugly. And we are given by God to teach our children to test everything, to hold fast to what is good and to abstain from every form of evil. And that's 1 Thessalonians 5, verses 21-22.
00:24:39
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And so I think we were given to our children so that they would know how to distinguish between junk food and poison. We were given to our children to know how they may discern between junk food and poison
00:24:59
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what is truly good and last fall I was doing a science experiment with my 12 year old at the time and we were learning about what it what processed food means and what is good food and very quickly the 12 year old was very eager to
00:25:24
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eat good food because once we learned to read the ingredients that were in the junk food, he realized he did not want to put all these things in the body. And of course, there's also things like allergies that same 12 year old have peanut allergies. And so if a certain book or certain genre of books is for my child as his mother, I need to protect him from what he's allergic to. And so every child is different.
00:25:54
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And what might be okay for one child may not be okay for another child. I have a child who whenever he either watches mystery shows or read mystery novels, he would get nightmares at night. Yeah, we've had something similar. Yeah, so I think as parents, we just need to discern like what is good for each child and
00:26:22
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and read together what is good for everyone. And what may be okay for one child may not be good for another child. And we are also in a place where we are to teach them what to love, to display for them what
00:26:46
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is a good book and to read it together and to walk with them slowly through to why this book is good and why is this book true.
00:27:01
Speaker
The Acrostic of Scripture by Jonathan Gibson and Timothy Brindle is a helpful book, whether you're just beginning or continuing on your path of parenting. The Acrostic of Scripture gives parents and teachers a unique and enjoyable way to teach theology.
00:27:17
Speaker
an alphabet of words introducing biblical theology, written to a rhyming beat, paints a detailed and varied portrait of the unfolding story of the Bible as it is fulfilled by Jesus. Jonathan Gibson and Timothy Brindle present an alphabet of words featuring people such as Adam and Hannah and Zacchaeus, places including Babel, Eden and Sinai, and events like the flood and the exodus.
00:27:45
Speaker
and they're all written to a rhyming beat. Together all of the words help children learn theology so their knowledge of God's big picture gets better and better. The acrostic of scripture introduces children ages 5 to 11 to systematic theology uniquely on their age level. Families will find the book not only educational but entertaining to read
00:28:09
Speaker
and reread. Visit NewGrowthPress.com today to learn more about the Acrostic of Scripture as well as the rest of the Acrostic Theology for Kids series. You'll be glad you did.
00:28:30
Speaker
So Irene, I really appreciate the way that you have thought so carefully through the role of books and reading for kids. Let me just frame out a scenario that I think would be helpful to have wisdom about.
Guiding Children Through Conflicting Messages
00:28:45
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So when our kids get to those early grades and they start to move into more like chapter books, where there's a bit more content and there are more messages coming through the books that they're reading,
00:28:59
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Sometimes that means, especially when it's more of the leisure reading that's just for fun, that there could be some subtle or maybe even overt kind of contradictions to biblical values. And I wonder how you encourage parents to handle it when kids come across some of those contradictions and it raises some questions for them. They're getting to the age when they can think about that and it can be concerning to them.
00:29:28
Speaker
And, you know, they're hearing something different in this book than they maybe are hearing from their parents or they're hearing at church. And it raises that question. So I just wonder how maybe you've handled that in your family or how you encourage others to.
00:29:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think this is exactly why we need to read with them, because we are not able to read all the books with them. But having the habit of reading out loud and entering worlds of the text with them helps
00:30:07
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us to learn to have these deep conversations. And so, for example, this morning we were reading a theology book and it's a very good theology book and we've been reading it for a couple of months. But when we get to
00:30:23
Speaker
the part about ecclesiology, which is the doctrine of the church, this particular author kept using the language of using, how God was using the church and how God was using God's people to do God's work. And now this is a theology book. This is not even a secular worldly book that is
00:30:46
Speaker
that is promoting bad thoughts. But even then I would point out to the children, well, you know what? I don't think God uses people. I think God partners with people. And so I would actually, and so I would reread the section and I said, instead of God using people, let's replace the word you use with partner. God partner with the church to bring his good news to the world. God partners.
00:31:16
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with his people to bring about the kingdom of heaven. And so this is not even a didactic moment because for my children it's just so normal because
00:31:32
Speaker
when I'm reading fiction with them, sometimes some of these fictional characters would swear and I would always replace words with gibberish or just like hot dog or sausage and they would laugh about it because they're like, oh yeah, this is one of those books. But I'm reading with my children and so there's safety in knowing that
00:31:57
Speaker
their shepherd is with them even as they are walking through you know this is not the valley of the shadow of death but this is definitely you know some thorn bushes that they know um mom wants us to pay close attention to
00:32:16
Speaker
Well I know that parents really value the approach that you're describing and the way that you have refined your approach and I think it's true what you said that there are many parents that you know they feel like I need to get moving either they feel like
00:32:35
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You know, a little time has passed and I feel a little bit late to the game, but I want to get moving. Or they're right at the front end and they're really benefiting as parents of younger kids. And so one way that I think someone like you can help is maybe to point out some of the books that you and your kids have enjoyed the most or benefited from the most as a starting point to say,
00:33:01
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start working with these and then you will find the path forward just beginning
Book Recommendations for Children
00:33:08
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here. So what are some books you and your kids have enjoyed the most?
00:33:12
Speaker
Yeah, so with my five-year-old right now, we are reading a lot of Mo Willems, the Elephant and Piggy books. So we've loved the Elephant and Piggy books. And they are simple, they are funny, they're engaging. We're always looking for the pigeon. And then for my older children, we've really enjoyed Jonathan Auxier's book, books
00:33:38
Speaker
the way you spell his last name is A-U-X-I-E-R. And one of my favorites is The Sweep, the story of a girl and her monster. I think it's the title, but that is one of my favorites. It took us a long time to read the entire book out loud, but it's riveting. And I've mentioned Eva Ibbetson. We read many of her books,
00:34:06
Speaker
We've read all of Kate D Camillo books together out loud. And those are just beautiful books that sound good when you read them out loud. They're well-written and they point to the truth. And so, yeah, those are some solid recommendations.
00:34:30
Speaker
Irene, I have really enjoyed our conversation. I've really benefited and grown from it. It's helped me in everything that you said. I just kept listening and wanting to hear more of the wisdom that you've gained in parenting. I really need it. I know a lot of parents do, and so I really appreciate everything that you have shared today. I have loved being here and talking about books, one of my favorite things.
00:34:58
Speaker
That's great. Well, thank you again for doing this with me and thanks for this conversation. Thank you, Rush.
Closing Remarks and Next Episode Announcement
00:35:08
Speaker
You've been listening to Straight to the Heart, a podcast from New Growth Press. Our next episode releases next week and I look forward to seeing you there.