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How Liturgy Can Grow Your Faith with Dan Alger
605 Plays5 months ago
In this episode of Straight to the Heart, our host Rush Witt meets with Dan Alger who is the Canon for Church Planting for the Anglican Church in North America, through which he leads the Always Forward Church Planting Initiative. They discuss the important topic of liturgy in the normal Christian life.
DAN ALGER ONLINE
Dan’s Website
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MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
Word and Sacrament
Always Forward Podcast
For more about the podcast at New Growth Press online.
Timestamps:
1:30 - Intro
4:31 - What are people most curious to know about the Anglican Church?
7:26 - How does the modern culture see a more liturgical approach to church?
13:59 - Tell me more about what led you to write Word and Sacrament?
20:24 - How would you describe the role of liturgy in the Christian life?
29:23 - What is the potential for good liturgy to impact the Christian life?
35:16. -How can Christians not in a liturgical church start using liturgy in their daily life?
39:16 - Describe how liturgy changed your day already on this Wednesday.
43:28 - Farewell
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Transcript
The Impact of Liturgy on Mission and Discipleship
00:00:00
Speaker
Bad liturgy squelches. It's bad for mission. It's bad for discipleship. It's old, boring habit, rote. And people don't even know why they're saying what they're saying. Good liturgy makes disciples and sends us out on mission.
Introduction to 'Straight to the Heart' Podcast
00:00:16
Speaker
I'm Rush Witt and you're listening to Straight to the Heart, a podcast from New Growth Press. Each episode includes thought provoking conversations with leading Christian writers and thinkers. We hear who they are, what they believe, how they approach their work in ministry, and the moments in people who have changed their lives. In Straight to the Heart, we go beyond the books to connect with the remarkable people behind them.
Dan Alger's Role and Work in Church Planting
00:00:39
Speaker
In this episode, I talk to Dan Alger, canon for church planting for the Anglican Church in North America. He also leads the Always Forward Church Planting Initiative. You can learn more about that in the show notes. And Dan is the author of Word and Sacrament, Ancient Practices for Modern Church Planners.
00:00:56
Speaker
We talk about church planting, of course, but also the unique distinctives of the Anglican Church, which I didn't know much about until now. And we also talk about how gospel-centered liturgy can change the way we walk with Jesus on a daily basis. Dan was easy to talk to. He taught me. He encouraged me. And all of this, despite being a strong UNC Tar Heels fan, this is straight to the heart.
00:01:29
Speaker
Well, Dan, thank you for being my guest today. I have been looking forward to meeting you and to our conversation. And I wonder maybe you could just um start and tell me ah where you are in life right now and ministry. What's going on in those two areas? Yeah, well, great. Thanks, Rush. I i appreciate you having me on. I've been looking forward to this conversation as well. i am I live in Greensboro, North Carolina, where I wear a couple of different hats on a ministry front. One, I'm the Canon for Church Planting for the Anglican Church in North America. canon is In the Anglican world, we like titles and things. and Canon basically means someone who is set apart by a bishop or archbishop for for a particular work. so the Canon for Church Planting simply means that that that In this case, the archbishop has asked me to serve in a particular role overseeing church planting for ah for the Anglican Church in North America, um so Canada, US, Mexico, basically. um so so that I wear that hat, but then I'm also the dean of the cathedral. Again, I know that we have our funny titles, but a cathedral is a church um ah in a diocese where where where the bishop is.
00:02:47
Speaker
um and sort of sort of the bishop's home church and ah and a church that's that's really set apart to help serve the diocese and serve the other churches of the diocese as well. So when you're the senior pastor of a cathedral, you're you're called the dean of the cathedral. So I wear both of those things. Canon for church planning, dean of the cathedral, I have both of those titles. Got it. Yeah, and that's really helpful to me because honestly, I don't know very much about the Anglican Church.
Understanding Anglican Church Hierarchy and History
00:03:15
Speaker
Sure. And um even as a pastor, I'm kind of embarrassed to say that ah as a Christian and pastor. church I just don't know very much. In fact, even when you say archbishop, ah and and is there an archbishop over the United States of the Anglican Church or the archbishop?
00:03:34
Speaker
Well, yeah, the the the archbishop, um, there's an archbishop over a province. Um, and so a province is made up of a bunch of diocese. Our particular province is the Anglican church in north america. So our archbishop helps to oversee. Um, u.s. Canada, mexico. Um, uh, and uh, and the the Anglican church is The worldwide denomination is called the Anglican community Union, and so it includes a lot of different provinces. The Anglican Church of North America is one of those provinces. Of course, it it has its roots in the Church of England, and so ah so a lot of lot of folks, their their exposure to the Anglican Church is and they watch the Royal Wedding or ah or the or the Queen's funeral, and they saw they they got a glimpse of high church Anglicanism. It's not all it's not all quite as high high church and quite as formal as what they saw there, but that's where our roots lie anyway.
00:04:30
Speaker
So let me ask you another question about Anglicanism. If you're in the doctor's office, let's say in the waiting room and you strike up a conversation with someone and they learn that you are a leader in the Anglican Church, what kind of questions do they ask you? What do you what are people unsure of if they don't know a lot about what are they curious to know is interesting or different about the Anglican Church?
Misunderstandings and Traditions of Anglicanism
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's that's a great question. The most of the time they say, well,
00:05:04
Speaker
What is the angelic in church and that that's usually what we get so we have to correct that just a little bit I think well, we're not angelic and we're Anglicans, but ah When I try to explain Anglicanism to them it really it really depends on their background and where's the common ground of ah Starting if they are if they are if they have a church background if they are if they're educated as Christians I oftentimes will say we We have our roots in the Church of England, but the way that the the Protestant Reformation worked out worked itself out was just a little bit different in the in the Anglican Church and the Church of England um in that and that we've always been seen as the the middle way or the via media, where our theology is very much in line with with the Protestant Reformation ah and with with quite significantly with Reformed theology.
00:05:59
Speaker
ah But a lot of our practice is also highly sacramental, um and so we have a much more sacramental edge to to who we are in our understanding and way of being. And so we kept some of the the the the practices of the traditional Catholic Church. with with a more reformed theology. So so if some if they are in a place where they are a little bit, have some Christian knowledge in that, that's the kind of discussion we have. If not, if if they if they are just saying, way you know, I grew up Baptist and that's where I am and I don't know anything else, then I will usually say to them,
00:06:33
Speaker
Well, um you're familiar with George Washington? And they'd say, yes. I'd say, well, George Washington was an Anglican. And they'd go, OK. And then I'll say, have you read The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe? And they'll say, yes. And I'll say, well, Aslan was an Anglican. ah so But of course, they're usually familiar with C.S. Lewis, and and so we we go from there. and and And then I'll try to draw some parallels a little bit, like we're maybe a little more traditional church-looking, as say the Lutherans or the Methodists, if they're familiar with with some of the practices of those churches. um But that um um but that we hold we hold the Scripture and the Word of God as the form the foundation of everything. And of course, it's the name of Jesus that everything that we do is is all about Jesus.
00:07:17
Speaker
So we try to get to Jesus as fast as we can in that and that doctor um and that doctor's office conversation. Yeah, amen. yeah One of the reasons that I was looking forward to talking with you is because of your role in church planting in the Anglican Church. Because I've been a part of a church plant, our church is now, I would i would call it an established church, but 12 years ago, We have a small team come and and plant a church here in Ohio. And, you know, as I look at the church planting movement, I think it seems pretty obvious that just maybe churches in general ah with and a good intention and desire to reach a modern um ah modern people,
00:07:55
Speaker
that there can be an informalizing of church or church planting to to make it feel more, I don't know, the idea might be down to earth or something like that. And so it's interesting. And I'd like to hear what you think because about this because some people may assume that, especially, you know, in say the Anglican church where there's a higher emphasis on liturgy or the sacraments or or maybe even robes, you know, vestments, et cetera. that there may be a sense that that might be a hindrance to a modern mission of church planting. And um I'm sure that you see it differently. And I'm curious how you see it, how you see that.
00:08:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's great. Yeah, and yes. Well, let me i mean first of all give the caveat that um but the Anglican Church is is is broad in its expression. And so if you go into some Anglican churches, you'll find that if we can use the terms low church and high church, low church being a little more informal, um yeah still liturgy based, but maybe a little less formal liturgy, all the way up to a very, very high church expression. If you watch the Royal Wedding, that's very high church. um And so lots of robes and those sort of things. And there really is a churchmanship ah can vary quite significantly. But I would say that the majority of
00:09:17
Speaker
where the majority of Anglican churches are, in America in particular, just to zoom in the conversation a little bit, it's probably somewhere in the middle, where um where there you would definitely notice on Sundays or Saturdays or whenever there were worship services are. um Most of them have vestments or robes and those kind of things and there is there is a liturgy and we do we do practice because ah sacraments are a significant part of our understanding of what it means to be the church as well. You'll see that this the sacrament of communion celebrated each Sunday um rather than as a um on ah ah less frequent level. so So just with that caveat, if we're if knowing that there can be a lot of variance, what I would say is, um I would say
00:10:04
Speaker
I have, ah in my experience, I have not found that to be true, um and particularly with the unchurched.
Liturgy's Influence on Mission and Church Culture
00:10:16
Speaker
that if we're that as We're really trying to reach the unchurched. A lot of times, actually, the unchurched, the people who have less and less background in church, when they when they are ah when when they are exposed to Christianity and Jesus and and therefore are are being brought into the body of believers, They're actually hoping for something that is very visually different. and and ah and and and What I hope is is a transcendent experience to be able to come in and say, this is wholly other ah than than what I'm used to. and and I need it to be something different because because I'm not okay with what I'm used to. I need something different.
00:10:56
Speaker
and so the the The difference, I think, in and when liturgy and robes and those sort of things can be a barrier versus when they can actually be a significant help is is the way is the culture of the church and how we present that as those things as the local church. that that Are they accessible or not? Do we do we explain if it's peculiar, right if it's weird, ah because people haven't ever been in a place like that before, Do we explain why we do weird things? Do we say there's meaning behind all of this and and and all of it points to Jesus? Even if you can't know exactly why immediately, there's a lot of there's learning that goes into that. But but Jesus, the Word of God, um the church being the church, the but our understanding of ah the importance of worship and and how our worship forms us, all of those things shape our practice.
00:11:50
Speaker
And so ah so this is all about Jesus. that's You can just trust us in that and then help us to then we'll fill in the blanks as as we go. um that ah that that I have found that a lot of folks who are unchurched in particular are very much attracted to that. um the The folks that it's harder for are folks that have had a ah background in in a non-denominational church or um or or a less formal setting and perhaps have even been taught bet um that that Catholics aren't Christians, and so anything that looks even remotely Catholic, Roman Catholic, um is therefore bad. the They have a harder time with that shift and that transition sometimes, um but but as far as the mission field goes, I've found the yeah and that's what the majority of the book is about is is how those aspects of the ancient church help us in our work of mission.
Focus on 'Word and Sacrament' and Liturgical Worship
00:12:51
Speaker
I want to take a quick break from my conversation with Dan Alger to tell you about his important book, Word and Sacrament. Dan is an Anglican church planting veteran, and in his book, Word and Sacrament, he shows pastors how the rich traditions of liturgical worship are a gift to the work of starting new churches. Word in Sacrament provides a robust framework to plant gospel, faithful, missionally effective, relationally strong churches. While much of church planning today is approached as a new, innovative effort, church leaders can take comfort in the truth that they are simply stewards of what the faithful church has been doing for millennia.
00:13:32
Speaker
By rediscovering the foundations of our heritage, we're able to build healthier, more faithful, and more effective churches. At the same time, the act of planting new churches can breathe new life into these ancient traditions as they're applied to a variety of cultural contexts. You can get copies of Word and Sacrament for yourself and your church when you visit NewGrowthPress.com.
00:13:59
Speaker
Yeah, and you mentioned the book, um which is titled Word in Sacrament, which is an apt title given ah what we're talking about today. And I'd like for you to tell me more about sort of what led you to the point of writing this book. Christians today are living in a wonderful time in light of church planting, especially in the United States. and to a greater degree even ah you know around the world because there is such an emphasis on church planting and there are networks and denominations and so many so many other organizations. So it would be great to hear how you came to the point of writing this book and some of the things that you cover that would be helpful to anyone interested in church planting.
00:14:42
Speaker
Yeah, um well, the way that that ah the the urge in me to write this book really started to grow as um is that I've grown up in the Anglican tradition my whole life, but um ah but I grew up in a very mission-minded church that had word and sacrament on mission. um and And I really didn't know, growing up, that that was strange. That that was ah that that oftentimes, if you were if you're a word sacrament liturgy kind of church, that you're not missional. um and And I didn't realize that there was that that separation. And when i but I went away to college in Chapel Hill,
00:15:21
Speaker
I was very involved in Campus Crusade for Christ, of course just called Crude now, um that and and learned a lot even more about personal evangelism and discipleship and and so so was immersed in the mission world. but But had to, in my own life, figure out how does how does my experience of a high ecclesiology, a deep understanding of the importance of the church and the actions of the church and the and and the the story of the church that goes back 2,000 years, not just our immediate
00:15:56
Speaker
as if we're the first Christians who have ever lived, so we get to make it up as we go along. But our family story that is the great tradition of the church, how does that come to bear? How does that come to interact um with this missional impulse um yeah ah and seeing other people come to know Christ? um And so for me, Church planting is the natural coming together of those things of of ecclesiology and missiology and I think one of the things that the Anglican Church brings to the table and this is this is Why why I think that that what I've been able to write in the book is a bit of a unique voice is because ah sitting at the table of church planting is
00:16:39
Speaker
um There's so much that the Anglican Church has to learn from ah the the missional movement and and ideas of of reaching the lost in in a missional culture and and such that that that that in many places we have had lost. But also there's something that there's a voice that we need to be able to bring that comes from the standpoint of um this interaction of ecclesiology and missiology where most of the church planting conversation is driven by, it's our missiology first. It's our understanding of mission. And then as we pursue that, we can kind of say, all right, what does the church need to become in order to make this mission happen?
00:17:20
Speaker
Where in the book, I try to ah try to push back on that a little bit and say, that means if we approach church planting and mission that way, that the church has no objective form. It just becomes a tool a means to an end of mission. If we start, however, with our ecclesiology and say that a ah strong ecclesiology says God has started the church, God has given some instruction as to the objective form of that church, and if God is on mission, then those forms of the church would be naturally missional because it's his church, he created it this way and and that's what he's doing. So the church should be that. And so so when we understand from the scripture, how how do we understand what the church is that's that's beyond just what we've started to move into, it's just really two or three gathered together in his name. That verse is not actually about being the church, right? I mean, that's actually about that's actually about conflict resolution is where that is's where that verse is. And he says, if two or three gathered together, may I'm in the midst and then yes,
00:18:21
Speaker
But when we see the the rest of the scripture talking about the church, it's it's a much broader and deeper um definition of of who the church is and how it should function. So so all that to say, i think I think we bring a voice that says, let's not start with mission and back our way into the church. Let's start with the scripture and our christian our Christology that moves to our ecclesiology and a proper ecclesiology moves us to the church being on mission. And so the forms of the church, Matter. I think I think one of the things that is that That to me as as I've had the opportunity to train lots and lots of church planters within the Anglican tradition is that I think that that one of the things that we stress that that I believe is important for the work of the of the of the church planting conversation is that I believe that church planting is is First and foremost an act of submission before it's an and an act of entrepreneurship
00:19:19
Speaker
And most of the time when i when i'm in big church planting conferences and those sort of things the entrepreneurial aspect of it is what is stressed if we start however with. This is an act of submission to, of course, Christ first and the call of the Spirit, but also the call of the church, the sending of the church and of being of being in submission to the doctrine of the church and the practice of the church. And then then we move out first and foremost in submission to something that's greater than us and carrying a torch that's not our own. And we start to avoid some of the pretty significant pitfalls of church planting where
00:20:00
Speaker
where it becomes personality driven and it becomes, I'm just making my own church for my own glory. And those kinds of things that we know are are really problematic within the church planting world. So, so I think it's that emphasis on the role of ecclesiology in the work of mission and church planting, uh, that, that I think we just come out from a little bit different standpoint that I hope encourages the the wider conversation. Yeah. The emphasis that you're making on submission, within church planting and within yeah local church life um overall brings to mind a word that we've used a couple of times so far, which is the word liturgy. And so I'm you know i'm curious, some some listeners will not be as familiar even with what that word means. they They hear it and they think Catholic. And so maybe you can clarify for some what exactly you mean when you say liturgy.
Liturgy's Role in Shaping Belief and Daily Life
00:20:53
Speaker
And how is liturgy then you know really a part of making disciples? It sounds very formal, it sounds kind of rigid, and and ah to some ears, and ah and yet it is an important part of making disciples. How is that? Yeah, so so Anglicans like to to use um the phrase ah lex orendi, lex credendi, lex babendi, which in Latin means, when you say things in Latin, it sounds like you and you know what you're talking about, right? now but but But essentially what it means is that
00:21:27
Speaker
ah How we worship is how we believe is how we live so so when we look at worship that that Worship is not just expressive. It is partly expressive and it's partly I have adoration and love for God that I want to tell of the great things that he's done right that there's there's an expressive part of it for sure there is but it's not only that that how we worship is The ways that we worship affects who we think God is. What is pleasing to Him? If worship is supposed to be pleasing to the God that we love, how we worship Him determines what we think about Him. I mean, and an extreme example, right? If you're following the Norse gods and their bloody warriors, you go fight people and kill people to please your gods, right? we
00:22:14
Speaker
how you worship is is based on who you think your God is. We're not that as Christians. We bring to the Lord a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. and so so there's a So if we understand that We are bringing something to Him, but that He's also interacting with us to form us it and and to shape our hearts as well. that The words that we use, the actions that we that we ah engage in, even the even the environment in which we worship in, ah shapes the picture that we have in our heart and mind and our understanding of who God is. um and so so
00:22:55
Speaker
the The liturgy is, it comes from a Greek greek word liturgyo, which means literally means the work of the people. um And you can one of the places you can go and read this in the scripture is in Acts 2, verses 42 through 47, where the after Peter's Pentecost sermon and thousands of people come to know Jesus, they form the church and there's a description of what the church is. In Acts 2.42, it starts off, they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, to the fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers. there's It's not just to prayer. It's the prayers. It's liturgaio. They were using the the the Jewish prayers, the Psalms, um the ah the the structure that the Lord had even set up in some of the Old Testament ways of being. And so so what we see is, ah the what the liturgy is then,
00:23:52
Speaker
It covers the words that we say and the order of our service and ah and the the overall thrust of the service. of How does it start? Where does it go? I would say every church has a liturgy. It's just some are more formal than others. If ah if you go into most non-denominational churches and you say, God is good, people will say, all the time, time right? All the time, God is good. right but that's That's a liturgy, or or even if it's a more, and I'm training in very broad brushstrokes here, but even if it's the services normally, you go into the service and there's 20 minutes of of high volume worship.
00:24:34
Speaker
Then the campus pastor comes on, kind of gives an introduction, and then there's a video sermon, and then the campus pastor comes back and gives an invitation to come to know Jesus, and then you repeat one of the songs that you sang earlier as kind of the closing song. That's a liturgy. whether our liturgy is or intentional or they're not, there is a we're trying to take people someplace, right? So in a more traditional liturgy, what we're trying to do when it's done properly is that our liturgy, the words that we use are actually ancient words from the church. A lot of the liturgy is 2000 years old. um and And so you're praying with people who, with Christians who have ah a lot of these prayers that have been written by folks
00:25:17
Speaker
and been prayed by billions of people over thousands of years. in in And a lot of those prayers are not just, some of them are just are written by people who have gone before us, St. Augustine or or whoever else. um but But a lot of it, the majority of it, 85% of the Book of Common Prayer, which is where the Anglican Liturgy comes from, 85% are direct quotes from Scripture. um And the rest of it is made up of either paraphrases of scripture or teachings based on scripture. So what we're trying to do then in the liturgy is, to bring all of this together, is if the actions and words that we say in our worship, help how we worship, is how we believe, it shapes our picture of God.
00:26:01
Speaker
That we want to use God's words to give them back to him We describe words with God with the lexicon that God has given us in the scripture to use the scripture in our worship That's where the liturgy that's where good liturgy comes from and then in that Latin phrase I gave how we worship is how we is how we believe is how we live so who our understanding of the things that we practice and say that determine who our understanding of who God is, we then live our life of discipleship and in response to Him ah um based on on who we believe He is. And if we're we're speaking of His grace and His holiness,
00:26:40
Speaker
and that our response is one of hungering and thirsting for righteousness and striving for what is good and right, but also living under grace and mercy. um that it's ah It's a living gospel in that way of of teaching us the language so that we can better describe who God is and then better live our life of sanctification in in service of Him in light of all of those things. The liturgy is providing a framework um for us to have that proper worship, but it's also not meant to be creatively squelching either. it's it's ah The Holy Spirit is not bound by by forms of worship. The Holy Spirit works within those things. and
00:27:22
Speaker
are ah There can be a lot of of local cultural expression in um in the languages that we speak the liturgy in, in the music that we sing, in the art that can be a part of things. the Liturgy is really a scaffolding that a number of other artistic expressions and local expressions and and and creative expressions can be built upon as well. so it Bad liturgy squelches. It's bad for mission. It's bad for discipleship. It's old, boring habit, rote. And people don't even know why they're saying what they're saying. Good liturgy makes disciples and sends us out on mission.
00:28:02
Speaker
Well, this is the final episode of season three. So until we meet again, I want to remind you of what you can find at NewGrowthPress dot.com. If you love the rich and encouraging conversations that we enjoy on Straight to the Heart, you should certainly know about NewGrowthPress dot.com. You'll find resources that will enrich your faith, help you grow spiritually, and equip you to care for the souls of others. And guess what? New Growth Press always has an opportunity to save when you buy in bulk. The more copies you buy, the better the discount, from 25% all the way to 40% off the retail price.
00:28:40
Speaker
With our mix, match, and save promotion, you can build your own custom bundle of books and resources and save big. Simply apply the coupon code mixandsave to your shopping cart at checkout to take advantage of these savings. Whether you're looking to stock up for your personal library, bless your friends and family with thoughtful gifts, or equip your church with valuable resources, NewGrowthPress dot.com is the place for you. Don't miss out on these great discounts. Visit NewGrowthPress.com and I'll look forward to seeing you in a future season of Stray to the Heart. Now back to my conversation with Dan Alger.
00:29:22
Speaker
So speaking of good liturgy and the value of good liturgy to a local church or to a church plant, I have a question that actually would help me personally hear you answer. And that is, what do you see as the potential value of good liturgy, perhaps even focus on the sacraments in the ordinary daily Christian life, just the average ordinary Christian living their life in the world, um What is the role of liturgy or what could be the role of liturgy to strengthen our faith in the daily practice of the Christian life?
Vocabulary and Structure Provided by Liturgy
00:30:04
Speaker
Yeah, well, there's a couple of aspects of that. I mean, one is I like to use the example of um
00:30:11
Speaker
When we have small children and ah and they are trying to express something to us and they throw a bit of a tantrum because they're trying to they're trying to express it and they'll get angry and we say to them, use your words, right? Use your words um that because they don't know how to express what they're feeling until they're given words to be able to do that. And that is true for us in our life in Christ as well. And we get words from somewhere of what we're using, how we're using to describe God. um And liturgy does that, hopefully, again, with with that coming from the Scripture, that the words that we have are God's words. For example, um one of the yeah
00:30:54
Speaker
And one of the churches that I planted was in a military community and there was a young soldier that had come to know Christ in our church and and he came and ah to me one day and he said, He said, I'm frustrated because um I'm learning how to pray and I'm loving praying. He said, but I i ah don't feel like that I can articulate myself very well. And then I get frustrated. And I said, well, tell me tell me more about that. Tell me something specific that you're saying I'm wanting to pray and that I can't pray. I feel like that a lot of a lot of times, yeah.
00:31:25
Speaker
Yeah, well, so so for him specifically, he said, um, it's confession. Like I want to confess my sins. Um, yeah in and, and I just doesn't feel like enough to say, God, I'm sorry. Um, and so I talked to him and I said, well, what first of all, it is enough to say, God, I'm sorry. God is not impressed by your, by how, uh, how articulate you are. Right. So let's get that on the table first. That, that that's enough. Um, uh, but. we are We are in a human physical body with a mind that can can verbally express ourselves. And so we have that desire that our our spirituality is physical as well. And so I said, what about what about these words? How about, I confess that I've sinned against you in thought, word, and deed by what I've done and by what I have left undone. I have not loved you with my whole heart. I have not loved my neighbor as myself. I am truly sorry. And I humbly repent. And he was like,
00:32:19
Speaker
Yeah, like that that real that's that's fuller than I would have prayed on my own. And he goes, wait, we say that prayer every Sunday in our worship service, right? And say, yes, that's our prayer of confession that we say together. And so then he was like, well, is it OK if I use somebody else's words? And I said, yeah, that's that's actually good because you can get out of you what it is you want to say in a way that the church has practiced for a long time. So the burden is not on you to have to figure out what you need to say and how you need to say it. It's just in the same way that if we if we love our girlfriend and we want to sing a song to her, we use somebody else's song because it it articulates what it is we want to sing, right?
00:32:58
Speaker
So, so there's in that way, it gives us that vocabulary and that word. The other part of it is um the way we use liturgy is not just Sunday morning. We also have a ah pattern where where in the and the modern Western church, we just simply talk about kind of an ambiguous quiet time and and we use devotions. And those are that that's fine. I'm not in any way putting that down. But one of the traditions of the church that is really based on a lot of the actions of of monasticism, where they would have set times to be able to pray, we have what's called the daily office, where where there's morning prayer, there's noonday prayer, there's evening prayer, and there's kumplin after that, if you want to pray that also. There's no requirement to say you have to pray all of these things, but there are services that are available for you, and they and they help then when we pray the hours in that way.
00:33:49
Speaker
um we It reminds us to pray for things that we wouldn't normally think of um and guides us through that. We say things like the Creed each time, the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed, where we remind ourselves what it is that we believe, what to pray for. We say the Lord's Prayer, things like that. um and And so those things become embedded as practices within within our own lives. And one of the things that I love about it too is that if you read through, say, the morning prayer service in the Book of Common Prayer, It is the language in it is is constantly we pray this we pray that we pray this and and it could be it's strange at first and if you're like I'm praying by myself and I'm saying we but to know that People all over the world millions upon millions of people are praying those same words in that same way with you So even though you are having your own personal devotions, which are important You're still doing so as a part of the one holy catholic apostolic Church, you're you're not alone even in your own personal devotions because we are praying even if we're not geographically in the same room. And I love that. It feels much less pressure. Gosh, I need to have a good quiet time today, so I've got to make it happen. But rather, let's be a part of a family that that has set some of those rhythms for us and take some of that pressure off. So I think both of those ways are ways that we make disciples um in ways that that we learn our devotional practices through liturgy.
00:35:15
Speaker
Okay, Dan, so so so some Christians, let's say in the Anglican tradition, they have a ah kind of example set for them in their local church worship services. And so I'm curious for Christians that are not in a more liturgical church setting, but want to begin moving forward with some initial steps to involve, let's say some liturgical aspect to their quiet time. what would What would you recommend that they pick up or begin doing as a kind of introduction to you know broadening their perspective on their quiet time and how they could use ah you know a resource to to do to um to relate to the Lord?
00:36:02
Speaker
Yeah, i can speak to I'll speak to this specifically from um from an Anglican perspective. we We don't have the corner of the market either on liturgy. There's other there's other great traditions that ah that are liturgical in nature
Exploring Anglican Liturgy for Personal Growth
00:36:15
Speaker
as well. And and i would I'm always very quick to say,
00:36:21
Speaker
Although the way that we present things as Anglicans is is different than a a lot of people's experience, we're never trying to position that as over and above anyone else's tradition, or it is it is a way of being a Christian. we And I think a very good way of being a Christian, but it's not the only way. And when I'm not even going to say it's the best way, but I'm saying it's a faithful way of being a Christian. um And so do you just I do always want to say that so that that no one feels like as we're talking about things that are different, we're somehow saying they're better. But some of the resources I think that are helpful, if if somebody wants to to to either buy a Book of Common Prayer, I would say that's where we would come from as Anglicans, that you can get them on Amazon as well. And the the Book of Common Prayer 2019 is what they would want to get.
00:37:08
Speaker
They can also go to ah to ah the website um if they just look up BCP 2019, so it's Book of Common Prayer, bcp2019.anglicancchurch.net. And then they can actually read the entirety of the of the Book of Common Prayer there online, and you can print aspects of it, and they can see all of that there. ah Yes. And so that was the other thing I was going to say. There's other another place that makes it really, really easy is if they look if they go into the app store or whatever platform they have on their phone and they and they look up the daily office app that ah that there are a few different ones that are out there. The one that is based on on our book of common prayer um is ah let me
00:37:55
Speaker
Let me find this real quick. um It's just the one that's based on our book of common prayers called The Daily Office. It's got a little red square on it with a Jerusalem cross in it, um ah in the middle of it. um And that actually, ah that ah updates for every service. And so how to walk through the the liturgy is is right there in that app, ah including all of the ah biblical readings, because we follow what we would call the lectionary, which which is a ah set structure of reading the scripture so that we read the entire Bible every year. And the Psalms, I think it's the Psalms.
00:38:29
Speaker
all the way through twice a year, I believe that it is. um I might be wrong about that. but um And so all of that is is laid out in there for them. Some of the some of the the resources can help explain why they're doing what they're doing as well. Hopefully my book can be helpful on some of that, especially if they're church planters. They can get a better understanding of liturgy in general. um But there's a book called The Anglican Way um by Thomas McKenzie, which is a great book that explains a lot of these things. A lot of the work by Robert Weber, who um who was a professor at Wheaton Seminary for a long time. um ancient future evangelism, ancient future time. He has a lot of ancient future books and and why the allure of the liturgy is so strong. So any of those can be gateways into to understanding these things a little bit more.
00:39:15
Speaker
I'm curious, so today's Wednesday, and today, how would you say that perhaps the Book of Common Prayer or another liturgy or another aspect of your church life has really impacted you today?
Personal Faith and Liturgy's Influence
00:39:32
Speaker
Just just today, something you read, something you practiced that's a normal routine for you today and how it how it influenced you.
00:39:43
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that. um because my Christian life is shaped so much by devotional practices that that are rooted in in the the liturgy of the church, in and again, I'll always say the liturgy hopefully then is rooted in the Scripture if we're doing it right, that and that is rooted in the Scripture. there's There is very little of my life in Christ that is not impacted by it, um whether that's my individual um interaction with God of that
00:40:15
Speaker
one of the one of the things that One of the prayers that we pray at the very beginning of morning prayer every morning, whether we're by ourselves or whether we're in a group of folks doing it, um discusses the the holiness of God right from the start. um But then it also talks about our need for confession. And then at the end of that that introductory prayer, really, it it it quotes Hebrews and it says, so then let us but us draw near together to the throne of grace. um And so that that that understanding of the holiness of God, us being sinners um in in our interaction with Him, but His graciousness, and so that we can come with confidence and draw near to His throne,
00:40:58
Speaker
with confidence because it's thrown as a throne of grace, even though it's a holy and mighty throne. I mean, that that that shaping of the gospel is it pervades all of my thoughts and a lot of my language. I find that many times when I pray, I'm praying different aspects of the liturgy or the psalms that we pray all the time. This morning we gather together with ah with the staff of my church, and every Wednesday we share morning prayer together. And so even our staff devotion is we have we pray We pray the morning prayer service together. And part of that is that whoever's leading morning prayer that we can, there's a time for um intercessions and whatever anybody wants to pray for. And they can they then have a lot of place for for creativity in there. Sometimes they divide us into groups. Sometimes they'll give a specific um thing for us to pray for, whatever else. so So even our corporate life together as a staff is is shaped by that by that those forms.
00:41:54
Speaker
um and And I think primarily the what I have found that that I have so many friends that are not in the Anglican tradition as well. And I think one of the things that that that I have come to assume about being a Christian that is not as necessarily um as tangible or palpable for them in their lives is, I never feel alone in my Christian walk. I never, um because because I feel so ah so intimately all those who have gone before. that We're a part of a greater we're part of a greater family. um
00:42:31
Speaker
but of of the the the communion of saints, the great cloud of witnesses, right? And and so that being being a part of that is is so rich, but then also the very difficult work that we do in mission to know we're only only one part of that. Like, this has been happening for thousands of years over by billions of people, and we have a very important part to play. And God notices it, and there's a crown of righteousness that awaits, and ah get in in that he sees that. But that also, there's the weight of the world is not on my shoulders as a minister or a church planter, because because we're a part of ah of a greater story that's been going on before us, and will go on after us until the Lord comes back, and then it'll still continue to go on just in a different way.
00:43:13
Speaker
So, I think there's that aspect of, I don't ever feel isolated in my faith because ah i think because of liturgical practice, because of ecclesiology, that aspect of of of the Anglican way of being. Well, Dan, you have given me a lot to think about. I really have learned. I genuinely mean that I've learned a lot and and and it's been helpful to me for us to have this conversation. And I'm grateful for the time that we've gotten to spend on this episode of Straight to the Heart. Thanks, Rush. I appreciate the time and the the your invitation to come and ah really do hope people will will enjoy this book and it'll be helpful for them and their work of mission.
00:43:51
Speaker
I do too. I hope many more people will read Word in Sacrament. And do you write, ah do you have resources online? Do you have a blog? Yeah, two places that they can go to learn a little bit more about these things as well.
Resources for Further Exploration
00:44:02
Speaker
I have my own personal website where they can see some some things. That's where they can get in touch with me and such also. And that's just danalger.com. um ah But the the church planting initiative that I helped to oversee is called Always Forward. And so if they go to always-forward.com, you can go there and you can see a lot of the Videos that we've created and some of the resources that we've created and we have a we have a podcast as well called the always forward podcast Where where we talk about church planting? specifically um from a sacramental liturgical Perspective and so that can be helpful for some of your listeners to brush. That's wonderful. Yeah. Thanks very much for that I'll make sure it's in the show notes as well Great. Thanks again, Dan Alright, thanks, brother
00:44:47
Speaker
That's it. Season three of Straight to the Heart is complete. Thank you for listening and subscribing and sharing the podcast with others. And if you haven't already, please rate the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. And until next time, I'm Rush Witt, and this is Straight to the Heart.