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Moving Forward after Abortion with Camille Cates
299 Plays10 months ago
In this episode of Straight to the Heart, our host Rush Witt, talks with Camille Cates, a biblical counselor, speaker, and author who works with post-abortive women. Camille shares her story of hardship and suffering as a young woman, including her own history with abortion. From experience, she reaches out to those who are desperately seeking hope and healing from their own personal tragedies. Camille’s story is an incredible testimony to God’s grace and help in the face of sin and suffering.
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MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
Moving Forward After Abortion
Pregnancy Crisis (Minibook)
Ask the Christian Counselor Series Set
Learn more about the podcast here.
Timestamps:
1:35 - Intro and Camille’s upbringing and abortion story
7:13 - Camille’s experience in church before the abortion
8:34 - What was your understanding of abortion at that young age?
19:02 - We are all on even footing at the cross
22:16 - How Camille found healing in the Gospel
30:18 - The ministry of other Christians helped Camille heal
34:38 - How anyone can help post-abortive parents
39:47 - Comforting help from the Book of James
41:53 - What can churches do to help in the pro-life movement?
44:27 - How can listeners of this podcast be involved in the movement today?
50:30 - Farewell
Recommended
Transcript
Teen Pregnancy and Family Response
00:00:00
Speaker
with all of the drama and hormones and everything that goes along with that. I eventually became sexually active at age 15 and then I became pregnant at 16, almost 17. And I remember really struggling with my parents and how I was going to tell them, but my mom found out and she confronted me and to my surprise she asked me if I wanted to have an abortion.
Introduction to 'Straight to the Heart' Podcast
00:00:26
Speaker
I'm Rush Witt, and you're listening to Straight to the Heart, a podcast from New Growth Press. Each episode includes thought-provoking conversations with leading Christian writers and thinkers. We hear who they are, what they believe, how they approach their work in ministry, and the moments and people who have changed their lives. In Straight to the Heart, we go beyond the books to connect with the remarkable people behind them.
Camille's Journey Through Abortion and Faith
00:00:50
Speaker
I want to give you fair warning. This episode is heavy.
00:00:55
Speaker
Camille Cates is a public speaker and author whose testimony reaches out to those who are desperately seeking hope and healing from their own personal tragedies, in particular, abortion. And that's what makes this episode heavy. In this episode, Camille shares her story of hardship and suffering as a young woman, including her own history with abortion.
00:01:17
Speaker
And yet her story is an incredible testimony to God's grace and help in the face of sin and suffering. Today, Camille and her husband Troy have three children and live in the Cincinnati area. This is Straight to the Heart.
Life in Kentucky and Spiritual Growth
00:01:35
Speaker
How are things in Florence, Kentucky?
00:01:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I live in Florence, Kentucky, the northern Kentucky area. I always like to let people know it's basically a suburb of Cincinnati, Ohio. And we actually have the Cincinnati airport in our in our state. So anyway, yeah, I go to Grace Fellowship Church and my pastor is Brad Bigney.
Family Life and Ministry Involvement
00:02:01
Speaker
And so we've been there for, gosh, over a decade now and really
00:02:07
Speaker
have just grown spiritually. I love the practical application of the word that we're encouraged to do in real life. So yeah, it's great. That's so great. I really appreciate Brad Bigney and have always enjoyed the time that I've gotten to talk with him and spend with him. Always an encouragement. So I echo everything you're saying about your church and
00:02:36
Speaker
and all of that. Tell me more about your family and the ministry that you're doing there. I'd love to hear more about that. Sure. Well, so I'm married. My husband's Troy. We've been married. We just celebrated 28 years of marriage by God's grace. There's always a story behind that, but that's another, that's another tale for another time. And then we have three grown children.
00:03:04
Speaker
Our oldest is 25 and we have an adopted daughter from China. She's 20 and then a biological son who's 20. So they're all grown. That has given me some time, I guess, back in my years now that I'm kind of done with the parenting and training.
00:03:27
Speaker
But yeah, so that's my family.
Counseling Women in Trauma and Post-Abortion Care
00:03:31
Speaker
As far as ministry, I serve alongside my husband. He's a community group leader in our church and also take part in biblical counseling at our church. I usually get called in to help with more of the traumatic cases.
00:03:54
Speaker
maybe it's a marital case where there's been some abuse or maybe an abortion in the past or just some trauma that maybe the wife seems stuck in. But I've also ministered to single women and young women. I really love the energy from teenagers and young women and
00:04:19
Speaker
really want to pour into them. So that's kind of a nutshell of ministry. Do a lot of consulting with other counselors. Maybe they're new to biblical counseling and they have a hard case and they just want somebody to talk it through with them. So that's a lot of what I get to do and I'm thankful.
00:04:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's really great. I love hearing about that. And I know, obviously, I know that you also do a lot of work with post-abortive care. And I wonder if you could tell me more about that and how that became central to your life and how that ministry has grown out of your own story.
00:05:04
Speaker
Well, I was in a point where I needed ministry after an abortion that I had as a young woman. A little bit more on my backstory, I grew up in the church.
00:05:19
Speaker
I wouldn't say I was a good church kid. I was probably average, probably very typical. My parents were involved in leadership in the church. So I was there a lot. We used to have discipleship training on Sunday nights for those that remember that. So I was up there a lot hearing a lot about the Bible and Jesus and Bible stories.
00:05:49
Speaker
So I always kind of thought of those as those superhero stories. And then I grew up and read the Bible for myself and figured out they're really messed up people just like us. They're sinners and suffering sinners and have a lot of commonality. So I love now getting to share a lot of good counsel out of those biblical narratives. So anyway, I actually came to know the Lord when I was age 12 and
00:06:17
Speaker
really loved Jesus. I got the gospel. I was at a youth camp and heard somebody really preach the gospel where I got it for the first time and understood that I was a sinner at age 12 and that Jesus died on the cross.
00:06:37
Speaker
for me to have eternal life with Him. And so I received salvation at that point, but I went back home after camp and I was still not a good church kid. So I just didn't have a whole lot of discipleship looking back in my life, which is why I'm passionate.
00:06:55
Speaker
a lot of times about youth ministry and you know, discipling our teens and helping them get to the real problems that they're facing in their lives and in the culture and help them see that the Bible has real answers for real life. So what do you mean when you weren't a good church kid when you came back? What were you like?
00:07:14
Speaker
I love Jesus, but I didn't know really what else to do with him. So, you know, on Sundays, I'd be in Sunday school, you know, raising my hand and answering questions and kind of digging in. But during the week at school, and I feel a lot of students are this way, they just kind of then compartmentalized.
00:07:34
Speaker
Jesus and didn't really make him central to everyday life, didn't have anybody to teach me how to do that. So when I was in high school, I was boy crazy from the time I was little, and by the time I got to high school with all of the drama and hormones and everything that goes along with that,
Second Pregnancy and Familial Pressures
00:07:56
Speaker
Eventually became sexually active at age 15 and then I became pregnant at 16 almost 17 and I remember really struggling with my parents and how I was gonna tell them but my mom found out and She confronted me and to my surprise. She asked me if I wanted to have an abortion and
00:08:16
Speaker
And at that time I, I, I was just adamant. I was like, no, I don't want to do that. I, you know, I know that having sex outside of marriage is wrong, but this is really wrong. That was my thinking at the time. So I don't want to do that. And she said, well, we'll support you. We'll help you. What was your understanding of abortion at that age in terms of what your concept and your, you know, when you think, when you thought of what that would mean or entail. Yeah. Did that play into how you thought about it?
00:08:47
Speaker
I knew, I knew that it would be ending the life of my baby. I knew that. I mean, I was, you know, 16, almost 17 at that time. So I knew that that's what abortion was. Um, I just knew that that's not what I wanted. I don't know that I had the good, I don't know. It's funny. You know, when we think about theology and practical theology, um,
00:09:16
Speaker
I think I really knew deep down the truth that it's a life and it's a life that God created. I don't know that I really understood the sanctity of life surrounding all human life being made in the image of God.
00:09:34
Speaker
So I didn't have that piece, but I knew enough to know this will be wrong, this will be displeasing to God. And so I turned away from that option. And like I said, thankfully, my parents were gracious to support. I graduated high school early, started college, and had my daughter. And
00:09:59
Speaker
You know, I started college and I was just really still struggling because even though my parents were supportive, still there wasn't anybody coming alongside me to help with discipleship and to help kind of challenge me on some of my choices and point me to Christ and point me to a deeper relationship with Him. So I just really struggled. I did get back into church. I was out of church for a while, got back into church.
00:10:24
Speaker
with my daughter, but I really just did not have any discipleship on relationships and what a godly relationship would be like. So when I started dating again, I became sexually active very quickly and very quickly became pregnant again. And I think the reality... How old were you at that time? Yeah, at that time I was...
00:10:48
Speaker
I would have been right around 18, 17, 18, late 17 and 18. And so it wasn't very, I mean, my daughter was 10 months old at the time. So she wasn't even a year old yet. And here I am pregnant again and thinking, Oh my gosh, I got to tell my parents again, what are they gonna
00:11:08
Speaker
did you live with your parents you and your daughter live with your parents during college at that time you went to college near nearby is that we did i was going to school and a local community college junior college and living at home but then
00:11:23
Speaker
Um, I really wanted a lot of independence. I think some of my pride in there, you know, I'm, I'm a mom, I've got a baby. I really want to, I should be an, I'm an adult. I should move out and be on my own. So my parents kind of helped me move out on my own. I looking back, that was a bad choice at the time. And, um, so I didn't really have a whole lot of.
00:11:48
Speaker
people who could see what was going on in my life. And so I was living on my own with myself and my daughter and got involved in this relationship and became pregnant again. And unlike the first pregnancy, the guy didn't stick around at all and we were not very serious, but this relationship seemed more serious.
00:12:14
Speaker
You know, at first we were kind of excited about possibly having a baby. We were just young and foolish. And then my parents found out and they brought up abortion again. And I really started thinking about it and considering it, you know, with some of the pressure that they were putting on me about, you know, what are you going to do with Lauren? That's not fair to your daughter, you know, that you have.
00:12:42
Speaker
You're really young. You're working two part time jobs. You're going to school full time. He doesn't even have a job. There's not a real future here. And so that began to be the picture that was painted. It created a lot of doubt in my mind. Yeah, maybe this isn't the right thing. Maybe I should.
00:13:00
Speaker
consider this. And so the young man and I kind of talked about that idea and we never really got to a deciding point at that time because he was watching her for me one night and he ended up sexually assaulting and shaking her to death.
00:13:20
Speaker
And I was at work when that happened. My mom came into my workplace and she said, you got to come to the hospital. Something's happened to Lauren. And we kind of found out through the course of 24 hours what had happened and that he had assaulted her and she was legally brain dead. So... I'm so sorry to hear that.
00:13:44
Speaker
Yeah, and I, you know, gosh, it's been over 30 years ago now and it's still, you know, it's your kid and your child that
Tragedy and Life's Downward Spiral
00:13:53
Speaker
you love. And, you know, so here I am in the hospital and saying goodbye and I'm pregnant. And, you know, my parents are
00:14:10
Speaker
Coming at me again, I don't think we had even really left the hospital yet, and we're in the parking lot and they're bringing it up. You've got to have an abortion now. You can't go through with this.
00:14:23
Speaker
And so, gosh, within about a course of a week, we had my daughter's funeral. We buried her. And four days later, I'm on a plane to Dallas, Texas. We lived in Texas at the time, up in Amarillo in the Panhandle.
00:14:40
Speaker
And I think my parents didn't want anybody to know In our hometown and or maybe they didn't provide services at the time. I don't know so we went to Texas to Dallas and I had an abortion and
00:14:56
Speaker
And my world just spiraled after that. I lost everything my Boyfriend at the time was arrested You know, I went back to live with my parents I couldn't go back to the apartment at all. I never went back because I couldn't couldn't stand you know that we talked about trauma and
00:15:18
Speaker
you know, sometimes the places, the visuals and being in a familiar place where something really horrible happened is really hard to go back to. So anyway, you know, my life really spiraled after that. And I had been partying, you know, kind of as a little bit of a party girl in high school, but really went off the deep end.
00:15:43
Speaker
After that event and my life just kind of spiraled for two years and I knew I knew that I had this relationship with the Lord and I Moved away. I you know, I just got to where I couldn't even standing in my hometown. I moved away moved moved to actually Dallas Fort Worth area and
00:16:11
Speaker
I met up with the same kind of people that I'd been hanging around that were not a good influence on me. I was not a good influence on them either.
00:16:22
Speaker
I was just in this lifestyle of, I don't care anymore about my life. It's basically everything's been taken from me. So I'm just going to do whatever with whoever.
Spiritual Recovery and Ministry Work
00:16:40
Speaker
But the Lord in His graciousness finally just helped me become sick of that life. I knew it wasn't going to provide me any answers or any hope.
00:16:51
Speaker
And I ended up moving back home. And while I was at home, God had brought a godly young man that I'd grown up with in church back into my life.
00:17:05
Speaker
And we started hanging out again and God just really used him and a growing love for me that God had given him to really impact me. And so I ended up marrying him and he was a youth pastor at the time and just graduated seminary. So all of a sudden we were kind of thrust into youth ministry, but I had this abortion in my background.
Resources for Post-Abortion Healing
00:17:36
Speaker
I want to take this break to encourage you to read Camille's book Moving Forward After Abortion. It's part of the Ask the Christian Counselor series, which walks readers through their deepest and most profound questions. In this book, Camille points women who may be facing hurt, confusion, and unanswered questions after an abortion to finding grace and mercy in God's love.
00:17:58
Speaker
As we've heard today, even though each woman's story is different, the challenges that follow in abortion can be similar. How can you find healing and renewal for where you are now? How do you process the variety of emotions you may be experiencing, such as anger, grief, or perhaps numbness? Camille has spent many years counseling women, helping them to answer those questions.
00:18:23
Speaker
In moving forward after abortion, she helps you to see that God is forgiving, gracious, merciful, and loving, and offers comfort to those who come to him to experience restoration instead of brokenness. Reflecting on an abortion story can be intimidating just as we've heard today, but you do not have to do it alone. God is near and plans to use your story for good.
00:18:50
Speaker
Visit NewGrowthPress.com to learn more about moving forward after abortion by Camille Cates.
Forgiveness and Healing Through Faith
00:19:02
Speaker
It's amazing how often it seems like in really dark places. Your story is an incredible testimony of God's work in dark places. But, you know, how many people have lived in dark seasons and ended up in prison?
00:19:18
Speaker
somewhere similar and the Lord uses those hardships to change them and so that's absolutely something to pray for and you know lean into God's grace that's it is yeah you know and a lot of people have asked me over the years like how how in the world could you ever forgive him and
00:19:41
Speaker
only Jesus could allow this to happen in his sovereign plan. But, you know, I remember in the very beginning sharing my testimony with women's groups and, you know, God really showing me
00:20:03
Speaker
Camille, yes, he's sexually assaulted and murdered your daughter, but what did you do to his baby through abortion? It's a violent process. I had a surgical abortion. When you think about what happens to the baby is very violent and traumatic, and yet that was his baby. And so I really
00:20:29
Speaker
you know, have this glimpse of kind of seeing ourselves on even footing at the cross. And, you know, we know that all sin, all sin, whether it's, you know, abortion or murder or child molestation or lying or gossip or pride, the Bible says our pride is an abomination to the Lord. That's, that's serious wording. And so when the Lord looks at our sin,
00:20:55
Speaker
as an abomination to Him, we're all kind of at that fitting. But for me, it was really helpful to really see us kind of at the same place and meaning the same measure of mercy and grace. So how could I not, you know, when you look at, I believe it's Matthew 18 that talks about the unforgiving servant,
00:21:18
Speaker
when you look at that story and how the king was able to forgive this enormous debt from his servant, but then the servant goes out and punishes another servant trying to take it out on him for just a pittance in comparison of the amount. I mean, that's when we're vengeful and unforgiving and
00:21:44
Speaker
refuse to extend God's grace and mercy to others who have sinned against us, we're acting like that wicked servant who was sinned against, you know, minuscule in comparison to our sin against God. So, you know, those passages in Scripture have really helped me and helped me to teach others, you know, how to forgive when we've been seriously sinned against.
Publicly Sharing the Abortion Story
00:22:06
Speaker
I had interjected that question a moment ago and then you kind of pulled you off track for a second. Do you remember what you were saying? You had had, you headed back down the road again. Um, I think, no, but one of the questions that you had asked was about, um, you know, kind of how, how
00:22:28
Speaker
how I'd found healing, I think, after my abortion. So, you know, kind of picking back up with where I was when I met my husband, we were in youth ministry, we're serving. Nobody knows the secret that I've got but him, you know, and there, there was definitely, you know, a lot of fear for both of us. You know, he really at that time didn't, wasn't sure about me sharing.
00:22:57
Speaker
about my abortion with anybody. He was fearful that might cost him his job. And so, you know, it just really hindered and there were a lot of things that, you know, was also living off of this fear that's very common for
00:23:15
Speaker
women who've had an abortion, which is, you know, God's going to punish me. He's never going to let me have another baby. And so I went into marriage just like I've lost both my babies. I want a baby so badly. I'm living under this fear that God's not going to let me have any more children. And I'm, I'm just making our marriage miserable.
00:23:38
Speaker
because you know he's you know here he is a new young youth pastor he's like please can you just like I just want to you know focus on on ministry and you know we'll see about having a family and anyway so it was really yeah all those things were really pressing in on our marriage and just wait for you to carry
00:23:59
Speaker
Yeah, and I think a lot of, you know, we're in biblical counseling. We have couples that will come in and their crisis, their marriage is in crisis. Their communication is broken down. They hate each other. There's bitterness. A lot of times, one of the spouses may be post-reported, the other one doesn't even know about it. But that underlying anger and depression and bitterness, things that have been dealt with,
00:24:28
Speaker
Is wreaking havoc on their marriage. So a lot of times I'll encourage people counselors like please are you putting a question in your your PDI about whether or not somebody is post-abortive Because if we're not getting to that I mean that taking the life of another human being is at just the core of who we are just you know, I just can't I
00:24:56
Speaker
I probably can't do it justice in trying to explain how deep rooted that feeling is to know that you've taken the life of another image bearer. And so to walk around with that or to try and function in your marriage or your parenting, you know, it can affect how you treat your children good or bad, you know, because you're, you're living off of this past experience. And so that's why, you know, a lot of women,
00:25:25
Speaker
Amen will say, well, I've dealt with my abortion, you know, Jesus forgives me. I put that all under the cross. I don't want to bring it up again, but there's all these other underlying things, you know, because we're deep souls and there's these complexities that surrounded our abortion experience that affected us. And, you know, sometimes, you know, we're suffering
00:25:51
Speaker
from it or where we've committed other sins because of it. So then you begin to have all these layers of complexity and everybody just thinks, you know, Jesus has forgiven me for that. And that's great. That's justification. But what about your sanctification?
00:26:08
Speaker
You know, God wants to do a work, a thorough work in your heart to cleanse and heal that which has been broken. And sometimes we don't even realize that we're walking around with that brokenness. So God graciously led me to a post-abortion Bible study.
Role of Healing Hearts Ministries
00:26:28
Speaker
Where was that? That was with Healing Hearts Ministries International. So it's healinghearts.org. You can go online and do the Bible study. They have a post-abortion Bible study called Lining Up the Broken Hearted. And you'll walk with, you'll be paired with a trained certified counselor who is also post-abortive. So it's really, you know, it's great to have somebody walking with you who's been through some similar struggles. And so
00:26:58
Speaker
Yeah, but once I went through that Bible study, it just got me immersed in the Word of God and pointed me to specific areas and emotions and things that I hadn't thought about needing to work through. And by the time I got done, my husband just said, he was like, you are a completely different woman. It's just amazing. And I had this love and hunger for God's Word.
00:27:31
Speaker
My time today with Camille has reminded me of another resource she's written, this time a mini-book called Pregnancy Crisis. This wasn't the plan. Imagine this. You've recently received some unexpected news. Maybe you took a pregnancy test hoping it would be negative, but it was positive.
00:27:50
Speaker
And perhaps you and your spouse or partner were excited about having a baby together, yet a doctor's visit brought some sobering news, a poor health prognosis for you or your baby.
00:28:02
Speaker
A life-altering choice is ahead of you. Perhaps you've said to yourself, I'm not sure I can have this baby. Camille wants you to know that God is not dismissive of the situation you now face. He sees you and every single detail of your life and your baby's life, past, present, and future.
Guidance for Unexpected Pregnancies
00:28:22
Speaker
God knows the details of the circumstances surrounding your pregnancy. He will give you the wisdom and guidance you need to walk through this unexpected path if you will seek his help. And God has a plan for both of you, a plan for you to flourish as you come to know him and walk with him. And you can look to Jesus today because he loves you and cares for you.
00:28:45
Speaker
The mini-book, Pregnancy Crisis, This Wasn't the Plan by Camille Cates is available now at NewGrowthPress.com. And since this important topic centers around biblical counseling, it's also a good opportunity to remind you about the Ask the Christian Counselor series set. What's included in this growing series? Books like Angry with God, Anxious about Decisions,
00:29:09
Speaker
Build a stronger marriage. I have PTSD. I have a psychiatric diagnosis. I want to escape, moving forward after abortion. My spouse was unfaithful. Someone I know is grieving. Each of the books in the Ask the Christian Counselor series walks readers through their deepest and most profound questions. These books are useful by counselors in counseling,
00:29:30
Speaker
or for those who are taking part in a season of biblical counseling. And they're also useful even for someone who picks it up off the shelf and is interested to learn more about that topic and how biblical counseling may help them to answer these important questions. You can learn more about the Ask the Christian Counselor series set by visiting NewGrowthPress.com.
00:29:56
Speaker
What do you think were some of the main changes or differences?
Processing Anger and Healing
00:30:00
Speaker
And what are the key examples, maybe they come to mind for you, that when you did the Bible study and you began to dig into this really difficult story that's yours, but you're kind of exploring it in a new biblical way that really stood out to you?
00:30:22
Speaker
I think one of the biggest things that stood out to me, and I want to encourage, this is in the book, Moving Forward After Abortion, that's coming out, Finding Comfort in God, that's coming out with a new growth press.
00:30:38
Speaker
You know, one of the things that was just pivotal for me was learning about anchor. And, you know, growing up, especially if you grew up in the church, a lot of times we have this wrong thinking that to be angry is simple. It can be. It often is. But it's not always.
00:31:00
Speaker
And when you've been sinned against, whether it's, you know, somebody's hurt you, sinned against you, like in my case, you know, with my daughter being taken from me, you've been sexually abused, somebody's cut you off in a relationship unjustly, unfairly, you know, whatever it is where you've been sinned against,
00:31:22
Speaker
We feel anger over that, and it's not always unrighteous anger. It can be righteous anger because God is angry over those things too, and He is righteously angry over them. But then a lot of times we turn around and we sin in our anger, which the Bible tells us not to do. So it's learning, you know, it's okay. I think there was freedom in acknowledging, I can be angry over what happened to me. I can be angry with Him over what happened.
00:31:52
Speaker
but I don't have to respond and retaliate in anger. So walking through just different passages that talk about anger and not taking revenge and overcoming evil with good and
00:32:05
Speaker
different things, loving our neighbors, praying and blessing and doing good to others instead of retaliating. All of those things, as I was immersed in God's Word, began to just marinate in my heart and my mind and change and transform. And it's very freeing when you know that you can be angry over the things that God is angry over.
00:32:29
Speaker
But you're also called to respond to sin the way that God responds to sin. And that's with, you know, a heart that's willing to forgive, to extend forgiveness and, you know, to not be better and to not hold on to anger. We're called to get rid of it. So really working through that
00:32:50
Speaker
part alone, there's other reasons people might be angry who are post abortive, they can be angry with the person who pressured them to have the abortion. There was some, some bitterness that I had with my parents, you know, for the pressure that they put on me and not helping me. At one point I had, I'd even told them like, like, maybe I can, you know, place this baby up for adoption. And you know, then then, you know, they kind of told me, well, we, we
00:33:16
Speaker
we don't think that we can go through that with you. I don't think that's going to be too much for us. So then, you know, that's sin. They sinned against me. So, you know, there's, there's bitterness and there's all these layers. This is part of the complexities that I'm talking about that really need to be worked through so that I couldn't, you know, I came to a point where I could forgive my parents. I chose to forgive them. I were commanded to do that. And, um, but I wanted to, because I saw,
00:33:44
Speaker
the goodness and the gospel in that Bible study as well. When you see the love of Christ and His forgiveness for you, you want to extend that to others. So those are just a couple of things through that study that were very helpful for me. Yeah, I want to ask you a sensitive question along those lines too. So as you live your life today, do you
00:34:11
Speaker
Do you think that you have... How can I put this? Do you feel that you have worked through your story thoroughly? I mean, you've told this story a lot to minister to other people. You've obviously had a lot of care and you've cared for yourself through it. You've talked about that. Or are there still parts of your story that you're processing or
00:34:37
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's a great question. I feel like I have worked through the majority.
00:34:44
Speaker
Of that, you know occasionally things will Come to mind. I think god's just really gracious to do that that at the proper time He'll bring up something that may have been forgotten But because I had that foundation with the bible study and really learning how to deal with my emotions biblically and how to respond I knew then how to I was equipped in how to apply that to these other areas. So um, but I
00:35:12
Speaker
You know, I do think it's important
00:35:16
Speaker
to share your story once God has done that work. And you have sanctification to testify to the goodness of God. And, you know, for me, I think, you know, one measure, I've had colleagues and I've talked about this over the years, you know, maybe it's not a hard, fast rule, but I think one measure to kind of question and examine yourself, are you really
00:35:45
Speaker
biblically healed from that past and that past abortion is if you're willing to talk to other people and share your story and you feel no more condemnation.
00:35:59
Speaker
And I think there are still a lot of women and men who would say, Oh, you know, crisis healed me. I'm good. But if you ask them if they would be willing to share their story, the shame and the fear come back and overwhelm them. And I think that that just kind of demonstrates there's still some work to be done.
00:36:18
Speaker
And so I would encourage anybody listening to get the resources coming out moving forward after abortion and work through some of those things. I think it's a good start. It's not exhaustive.
00:36:35
Speaker
It's not like a full-fledged Bible study, but it's a great book to get you to thinking about different areas that abortion has touched your life and how to move forward. And then it also gives more information about healing hearts in that Bible study as well.
00:36:52
Speaker
Yeah, and I appreciate the short length, especially in cases where people are really feeling under enormous weight and burden, and it can feel overwhelming to be given some long book to read. And so the shortness of this book is a particular value.
00:37:14
Speaker
Yeah, you could you could read it in a day or two easy and you know, it's funny. I can write fast, but I read slow. So so if you're a slow reader like me, I mean two days you could get through it really easily. So
00:37:30
Speaker
Yeah, earlier you were talking about the importance of having post abortive questions in a PDI to clarify for listeners. That's like a form that you fill out to start counseling where you fill out your information and kind of what's going on in your life and you share your story so the counselor can
00:37:50
Speaker
can best help you. But playing off of that, I wanted to ask you just because you mentioned that there are people who will go to see a counselor and the counselor may not know that they have this in their past or other people the way that you did initially with your husband at church where no one really knew the story.
Importance of Sharing Stories for Healing
00:38:14
Speaker
What would you say is the
00:38:18
Speaker
the value of coming to a place of being willing to share that with someone. And what advice do you give to post-abortive women who are ashamed to share it, they feel they don't have space or someone safe to share that with, and therefore they're kind of carrying, they're carrying this weight on their own.
00:38:41
Speaker
Yeah. Find somebody in your church, a godly woman that you've seen walk in a lot of grace and extend a lot of grace in
00:38:56
Speaker
Share with her, you know, there's there's so much freedom when we bring things that have been in the dark that we've kept hidden in the dark into the light. There's freedom in that there's, you know, I think
00:39:15
Speaker
In some ways, it can keep us from basking in the love of Christ if we're still hiding in the dark, those things. And one of my favorite Bible verses that encourages us to share our sins with other believers, and I would give a little bit of a caveat when you have something that's really heavy and hard.
00:39:38
Speaker
that you find a trusted person, someone who's trustworthy and proven that. But James 5 16 says, Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. Then it goes on to say the earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results. But I just find it so interesting that, you know, in that passage that talks about confessing our sins,
00:40:06
Speaker
not just to the Lord, but to each other, to one another, so that we can pray for each other that they may be healing. Those things are connected in God's word. And so, you know, there's healing when you're willing to open up and share with somebody who's safe and can be trusted and is willing to help you and encourage you. But it's too heavy a weight.
00:40:34
Speaker
for believers to be carrying around in this earthly life. Paul calls us to run the race.
00:40:42
Speaker
And I liken having an abortion in your past or something else in your past that you're keeping hidden in secret, like having a spiritual limp. You know, you've got this thing that's, you know, Hebrews talks about, you know, having the snare and the weight that so easily entangles us, that holds us down, it weighs us down.
00:41:08
Speaker
when we could be running full force. So I would encourage you, it's time. If you're listening to this, you've had an abortion in your past, it's time. The Lord wants you to work through it with Him, find healing, move forward, and share your story with someone else who needs to hear it. You're the love of Christ.
00:41:32
Speaker
Amen. The passage that you talked about in James about believers confessing their sins to each other and praying for each other obviously carries into our minds the sense of a culture in which that can happen. And of course, we know that this kind of culture, it grows best in the local church, where churches are able to develop a culture of care that makes it
00:41:59
Speaker
easier. It's never going to be easy, but it's easier for people to share dark or difficult things. And so we want that culture to grow. And of course, we know that that culture doesn't just happen out of nowhere, thin air, but it happens because there are individual people who are driving or welcoming that culture. And so here's maybe a two-part question.
00:42:26
Speaker
One, about the local church in general, and two, about those individual people. What are the ways that you see, or maybe the way it's happening in your church, where that culture is growing, in particular with reference to post-abortive care? And number two,
00:42:44
Speaker
what could an individual Christian, just like what could a church do to grow that culture, what should an individual Christian who's wanting to be more involved, like my daughter, my second daughter, who is just finishing high school and then moving into college, she's doing some community college dual enrollment stuff, she's really becoming passionate about the pro-life movement and she's becoming involved with other students. So how could an individual like Sophie
00:43:10
Speaker
Get involved in that culture along with churches, growing a culture of care in that way. Yeah. Those are great questions. Um, I have a, quite a bit to share on both of those. I personally, I feel like the church still has a really long way to go in fostering, uh, just a safe space for conversation.
00:43:37
Speaker
I think sometimes we're really, really passionate as we should be for pre-born life, and we're against things that end the life of an image bearer of God, but
00:43:54
Speaker
the way that we talk about those things in certain circles, you don't know that the person who's listening has an abortion in their past.
Church's Role in the Pro-Life Movement
00:44:05
Speaker
You know, something that might be helpful is to really encourage, I think believers get caught up in, and maybe a little mixed up in understanding how to be most effective in the pro-life movement.
00:44:22
Speaker
And I would say to them, I would encourage anyone, know your audience. When we're talking about trying to enact legislation that is pro-life, your audience is probably not on your Facebook page.
00:44:40
Speaker
They're not at your church. That audience, the people that can help with legislation are your senators, your congresspeople, who you vote for governor, who you vote for president. That's where that kind of Christians can engage on the civic level.
00:44:59
Speaker
to help with you know laws that are more biblical leaning on the issue of pro-life but and not that you can't have those conversations at church or in your small group but you just you just got to know you may lose another audience in your conversation because some of the ways that we talk about the truthfulness of
00:45:27
Speaker
you know, abortion and abortion rights can really hurt, further hurt somebody who's listening who isn't biblically healed from their abortion. So I tend to encourage, you know, when we're at church, just to be careful about how we're talking about these things, to be sensitive, to try and cultivate some understanding.
00:45:52
Speaker
I think of anything, you know, a lot of people might say, well, you know, Camila, your book's going to be great. I can't wait to give it to somebody that I know that is post-abortive, or maybe I'll come across somebody that's post-abortive. And I would say, know that the book is for you. And so you're talking about at the individual level, I think,
00:46:11
Speaker
I would encourage you to read the book. It's full of not just my story, but other people that I've worked with over the years in biblical counseling. It just shares a perspective of individuals and their circumstances.
00:46:27
Speaker
who then encountered the gospel, but I think it's going to help really educate and open some eyes, help maybe soften the tone a little bit to some of our conversations or give some sensitivity. And, you know, Jesus was full of truth and grace, both equally all the time.
00:46:48
Speaker
And I think that's, you know, we're not always balanced like he was, but that should be our goal. And so I think just, you know, trying to anytime that you talk passionately about pro-life issues, to make sure that you also bring in post-abortive care. But I know, you know, but I know that there are people who have made that choice and I want them to know there's hope in Christ.
00:47:16
Speaker
As you talk about the role of that kind of education, obviously it brings to mind a lot of misunderstanding or maybe myths. And so I wonder if you could share what, as you see it, are a couple of those misunderstandings or myths about this area of ministry that keep people from engaging in it in that
00:47:39
Speaker
you know, grace and truth way in a more biblical way, a compassionate way. What are some of those misunderstandings or myths that you try to work with? I think one of the biggest misunderstandings is what a post-abortive woman looks like or a post-abortive man. And, you know, a lot of times they, I think the stereotype is, oh, that's somebody out there and, you know,
00:48:09
Speaker
maybe their life hasn't gone so well, but you know, really it's the woman or man who's sitting down the road from you in church. It's your neighbor. It's your pastor's wife. It's your elder in your church, you know, and he has a hard time even showing up every Sunday for sanctity of human life Sunday because
00:48:33
Speaker
you know, he's still hurting. So I think that's kind of a big myth is what the post-awarded person looks like and what their needs are. So I think that there are Christians who misunderstand what God's word has to say about forgiveness. And one of the myths that
00:49:00
Speaker
almost every woman that I've ever sat down with to talk about her past abortion was that she believed she needed to forgive herself. And that's a lot of times where people get stuck. Well, I know Jesus has forgiven me, but I haven't forgiven myself. And that, you know, we don't find that concept or doctrine anywhere in Scripture. It is not
00:49:25
Speaker
is not there, where to receive Christ's forgiveness for our sin. And sometimes that can be a little form of pride or something I've got to self-atone for what I've done. And so they think that they need to forgive themselves.
00:49:44
Speaker
I think that was freeing. I think I came in with that concept as well. We hear it all the time in our Christian songs and in books that people write and speakers that talk, but the truth is we just need to receive the forgiveness of Christ. That was completely freeing for me, and I hope that would be freeing for others.
00:50:08
Speaker
Well, Camille, I really am grateful for the way God has used your story, the way that he has redeemed so much hurt and brokenness in your story. I genuinely mean that from my heart and I really value the time that we have gotten to know each other today and prior to today.
00:50:26
Speaker
But for me to be able to hear more details of your story has been sobering and encouraging and helpful to me to minister to people directly and to help others minister to those who are in the greatest need. So I really appreciate your time and friendship and your ongoing ministry and work. My pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
00:50:57
Speaker
Thanks for listening to this important episode of Straight to the Heart. You can learn more about Camille's story, her resources, and her ministry by visiting these websites, healinghearts.org and agridigospellife.com. Also, be sure to check out Camille's mini book, Pregnancy Crisis, This Wasn't the Plan, as well as Moving Forward After Abortion.
00:51:23
Speaker
And again, thank you for listening, subscribing, and sharing these episodes with others. This is Straight to the Heart.