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Grief with Heaven In View with Randy Alcorn
467 Plays8 months ago
In this episode of Straight to the Heart, our host Rush Witt, talks with bestselling author Randy Alcorn about the recent death of his beloved wife, Nanci, and how his faith in Christ and familiarity with the Bible’s teaching on heaven has comforted him and deepened his walk with God. His testimony and encouragement is helpful to any one who faces serious loss and needs God's help to grieve with heaven in view.
RANDY ALCORN ONLINE
Randy's Website
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MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
God Made Me for Heaven
Someone I Know is Grieving
The Small Book Devotional Series
The Ask the Christian Counselor Series
More about the podcast at New Growth Press online.
Timestamps:
1:48 - Welcome
2:23 - Life Since Nanci's Death
6:09 - Tell me about Nancy
9:29 - How have heaven given you peace in Nanci's death?
15:51 - Randy paints a picture of the life to come.
21:42 - How has your relationship with Jesus grown over recent years?
24:58 - What surprised you in your grieving the loss of Nanci?
30:11 - The Story of Eternal Perspective Ministries
37:02 - How have Charles Spurgeon and C.S. Lewis influenced you?
41:13 - What's one big truth you gained from reading C.S. Lewis?
43:50 - How would you comfort someone who is grieving the loss of a loved one?
48:34 - Farewell
Recommended
Transcript
Embracing Grief as Love
00:00:01
Speaker
all of us will grieve and must grieve when we have lost a loved one and that we should embrace the fact that it's good that we're grieving because grief is an indication of love. If you don't love, you will never grieve. You'll never have anything to grieve about.
Introduction to Season 3 with Randy Alcorn
00:00:24
Speaker
I'm Rush Witt and you're listening to Season 3 of Straight to the Heart, a podcast from New Growth Press. Each episode includes thought-provoking conversations with leading Christian writers and thinkers. We hear who they are, what they believe, how they approach their work in ministry, and the moments in people who have changed their lives. In Straight to the Heart, we go beyond the books to connect with the remarkable people behind them.
00:00:49
Speaker
In this episode, I talk to Randy Alcorn. As many of you already know, Randy is a New York Times bestselling author who has written over 50 books, including Happiness, Heaven, The Treasure Principle, and the gold medallion winner, Safely Home.
00:01:06
Speaker
His books have been translated into over 70 languages and have sold over 10 million copies.
Coping with Loss through Faith
00:01:13
Speaker
Before starting Eternal Perspective Ministries in 1990, Randy served as a pastor for 14 years. Randy and I talk about the recent death of his beloved wife Nancy and how his faith in Christ and his familiarity with the Bible's teaching on heaven has comforted him and deepened his walk with God.
00:01:34
Speaker
His testimony and encouragement can be helpful to any of us who face serious loss and who need God's help to grieve with heaven in view. This is Straight to the Heart.
00:01:48
Speaker
I am really glad that I get to do the podcast, this podcast, because I get to talk to people like you. And I just want to tell you, you have influenced my life in mega ways, mainly through happiness. That's been a major shift in the last 10 years of my life in ministry as a biblical counselor, as a pastor, as a Christian. And this is a real privilege just to talk to you and
00:02:15
Speaker
spend a little time. I'm grateful that you would give your time to meet with me. Thank you. It's great to be with you, Rush. I would love to know a little of what Randy Alcorn's life is like now.
Life After Loss: Changes and Challenges
00:02:30
Speaker
What goes on in your daily life? What's your life made of at this point?
00:02:37
Speaker
Well, my days are similar in certain respects and different in others. For instance, later today I have a meeting with a few pastors in our community that have some issues and concerns in their churches and just want to get my input a couple of days ago.
00:02:57
Speaker
I spoke at the retirement celebration of a dear friend who's a pastor at my church that I used to be a pastor at, but haven't been since 1990. So it's been a long time since we were in ministry together, but it's still my home church.
00:03:15
Speaker
myself and a guy named Stu Weber that some people might recognize his name, started that church back in 1977. And so I still have a weekly meeting with a couple of my pastors, now one Sunday as a former pastor, but we get together. And actually, we're starting a study this week of my book, 60 Days of Happiness.
00:03:45
Speaker
And so it's One of the other guys in the group and this relates to your question of what's going on in my life Both my wife Nancy went to be with the Lord less than two years ago a little over a year and a half and Paul this other pastor who I am going to be meeting with once a week his wife Michelle and
00:04:10
Speaker
went home to be with the Lord just a couple of months before Nancy did. And this other pastor who just retired, he and his wife, Paul and his wife, me and my wife, for 30 years have met together for dinner on Thursday nights. And so now it went, when Michelle died, Paul's wife, it went down to
00:04:36
Speaker
five and then when Nancy died it went down to four. So this is kind of a picture into my life and how dramatically things have changed. I had stopped speaking with one or two exceptions a year maybe.
00:04:54
Speaker
during the time four and a half years that Nancy was battling with cancer. So now my life has changed significantly in that I've gone back to doing more speaking, certainly doing more writing and some of the things I had to put on the shelf because I was Nancy's primary caregiver and of course she's
00:05:17
Speaker
More important than anything else so i have a dog who's a double doodle named gracie and she is my daily companion some people say it must be sad coming home to a house that's empty and i say the house is not empty.
00:05:33
Speaker
Gracie is there to greet me eagerly, and you would think I was the most wonderful person that has ever lived. Of course, every dog thinks that about every dog owner, but that's okay. I'll take that any day that I don't ever have to worry about saying the wrong thing with her.
00:05:51
Speaker
Somehow, I'm still number one in her book. And my wife Nancy used to say, if we would adore God in the way our dogs adore us, the world would be changed.
Memories and Beliefs about Heaven
00:06:09
Speaker
I told you earlier, I'm delighted to meet you. And I, of course, wish I could meet Nancy. And I wonder if you would just sort of tell me about her.
00:06:19
Speaker
Yeah, Nancy, a very godly woman who was also an introvert who somehow was the life of the party. You know, I'm an introvert also, but I function in an extrovert fashion when I'm speaking, doing an interview, you know, on social occasions. And then I just shut down. You know, usually Nancy and I, we would drive home and she's a true introvert.
00:06:47
Speaker
Um, straight through, uh, but it would be like, okay, she was in the life of the party, but once we got in the car, I said, uh, then, then I'd say, okay, you don't want to talk on the way home, right? And she would nod like that. She, she was just completely had given herself out, but a big time, uh, pro football fan.
00:07:08
Speaker
She led women's Bible studies. She wrote women's Bible study lessons. She did all of these spiritual godly things, a time with the Lord every day, but also absolutely loved pro football, loved dogs. And I would say she still loves football and loves dogs. I have no reason to believe that when people go to heaven, they certainly become different in the sense that they are perfected.
00:07:38
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But the perfection is of who they have been. And so if there's anything in their life that's sin, that's gone.
00:07:47
Speaker
But is it sin to enjoy football and docks? No, I don't believe it is at all. And I think that in the world to come, so many of the enjoyments that we have now, we will have then. So when I think of Nancy, I think of her as changed in the sense of full conformity to Christ, you know, totally perfect, no sin in her life, but
00:08:17
Speaker
still the same Nancy, but different. And you know, it's interesting because Job, you know, talked about that, that I know my Redeemer lives and I will see him with my own eyes after my flesh has been destroyed.
00:08:36
Speaker
Yet, after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh, I will see God. And then he adds, I am not another. It's like he's making the point, it'll still be me.
00:08:51
Speaker
Really me job with my memories of this life what I learned from this life you know the relationships of this life reunion with his children who died and the children who he had later that presumably most of them died after he did and together he and not another would would be so I think about Nancy and my reunion and
00:09:15
Speaker
every day. Now, the most important thing is that she's with Jesus, her best friend. I'm going to be with Jesus, my best friend, but we're each other's second best friends and I know I look forward to seeing her again. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I really do appreciate getting to hear those details. Favorite football team?
00:09:37
Speaker
Yes, the Seattle Seahawks. The big Seahawks fan. We live in Portland. So, you know, three and a half hours or so south of Seattle. And so she from day one, 1977, I think is the year the Seahawks started. And so we were already, we have been in our twenties.
00:10:02
Speaker
Uh, and so every, every Sunday we come home from church. She said, you know, the other pastor's wives are probably fixing up a great meal right now, but, uh, she said, I'm going to bring hamburgers home. And then she'd get her number 80, uh, Steve Largent, who was a receiver for the
00:10:20
Speaker
Seahawks and she'd have her large jersey on and we would watch football in the afternoon and I would kid with the other pastor sometimes to say, you know, I know you guys being sensitive to your wives and everything that you're probably going to see the the
00:10:37
Speaker
Nutcracker, you know ballet, you know, whatever. Yeah that you're doing and to be sensitive to my wife On a Monday night for instance We'll be watching Monday night football and having pizza. So that's my ministry You know, that's my sacrifice for my life, which of course was no sacrifice at all Yeah, that is so good. So so down to earth, you know Randy any anyone who's familiar with your books in particular? Knows that you have a unique
00:11:06
Speaker
ability and God has used you to take difficult concepts like heaven or like happiness that are easily confused in the Christian life and expound on them in such bright biblical clarifying ways. And of course, heaven is one of those. It seems like that's a topic that most of us as Christians just struggle to get our hands around for a number of reasons. But I wanted to ask you, how has your understanding of heaven
00:11:35
Speaker
given you a piece in light of Nancy's death and grief and these days over the last year and a half.
00:11:46
Speaker
Well, I would say a lot of people would answer that question by saying, I am relieved that my wife is out of pain, which of course I am very much. I have the confidence that she's safely home with her Lord.
00:12:06
Speaker
I'm and that she's in the place that she belongs and one day i will join her there and that's where we will live together forever and that's probably the extent of the comfort that most people feel and that's a wonderful comfort.
00:12:22
Speaker
But with me, having spent way over 20 years, closer to 30 years of my life researching, studying, contemplating heaven and what heaven is and what heaven means,
00:12:39
Speaker
I look at it very differently because I believe that where Nancy is right now in the present heaven, in theology sometimes it's called the intermediate heaven, but I don't really like that term because it's misleading to some people, but the present heaven, that is the pre-resurrection heaven.
00:12:59
Speaker
Okay, so it's heaven, because heaven is where God dwells with his people, it's where God's throne is, so it's truly heaven. But it's not heaven as it is ultimately going to be, because the Bible promises, and we're told in 2 Peter 3.13, we are looking forward to a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. So when Nancy and I would talk about the new earth, Nancy would talk about, you know,
00:13:29
Speaker
Jesus is, if we've been faithful a little, He'll put us over much, and some will be put over five cities, and some will be put over ten cities. Well, since God created us to have dominion over animals, not just to govern other people,
00:13:45
Speaker
Do you think that God might allow me to govern dogs on the new earth? You know, to be with, and she said, like to be down by the water and have a hundred dogs and then watch the, and go out and swim with the dolphins and the manorrhays and the sea turtles. And she, she loved all those sea animals and whales and all of that. And I said, I would not be at all surprised.
00:14:14
Speaker
if he would allow you to do that as you make that request. So you just ask him and he'll do what he knows to be best. And a lot of Christians think as if we will live forever as disembodied spirits. When Paul says, if the dead are not raised, we are of all people, you know, most to be pitied. That's our hope, our blood-bought hope in Jesus is the resurrection.
00:14:45
Speaker
When someone is grieving, it can be hard to know what to say or do. We want to be helpful, not hurtful, but it's easy to go wrong. The good news is that we can learn to approach those who are grieving with the same compassion that Jesus shows us when we're grieving. It starts with humility and listening well and expands into practical support as the Spirit leads us.
00:15:08
Speaker
In the book, Someone I Know Is Grieving, Edward T. Welch leans on his many years of counseling grieving people to help readers learn from their compassionate savior how to respond to people's sadness and hard times without advice or trying to quote fix it, but instead to hear their story, to learn from others' experiences, and depend on the spirit for wisdom for what to say and do. You can learn more about the book, Someone I Know Is Grieving,
00:15:37
Speaker
Responding with Humility and Compassion by Edward Welch. You can learn more about the book Someone I Know Is Grieving by visiting NewGrowthPress.com. I wonder if I can ask you, this is a more personal question and you don't have to answer, you know, you can say pass.
00:15:58
Speaker
for anything that I ask you. So over the years of your marriage to Nancy, how often did you talk about heaven? And especially in the years where you were caring for her, I'm curious what those conversations were like. I'm thinking about other people who are in a similar situation, suffering, struggling, you know, and how those conversations helped in those moments. Yeah, we talked about heaven
00:16:27
Speaker
a lot. And I would say it's probably even if somebody doesn't agree with all my conclusions about heaven or any of them, you would have to acknowledge that because I am a
00:16:43
Speaker
Addicted to research sometimes too much. So I read over 150 books on heaven before the You know in the process of researching The book and I read many books on heaven that I didn't even like but I read them anyway Because I thought there could be something in there and usually you'd find maybe a gym, you know some thought there and so I
00:17:11
Speaker
you think of all that and then reading every article the I have six maybe seven books
00:17:20
Speaker
on heaven, not only the big heaven book, but a heaven booklet, and 50 Days of Heaven, a devotional book, Heaven for Kids, a couple of other children's books that relate to heaven. Two of my novels, Deadline Dominion, actually also Safely Home, deal with heaven and portray heaven. So I mean, I have spent a huge number, not hundreds of hours,
00:17:49
Speaker
thousands of hours and that is no exaggeration at all.
00:17:53
Speaker
researching, writing about, and then speaking on and talking with people about heaven and the new earth. So it's fair to say, of all people in the world, who would I have engaged most with on this subject? And the answer is my wife. We would talk about it, and we were excited about it. And I have told a number of people, Rush, since Nancy died,
00:18:21
Speaker
Don't wait to talk about the world to come.
Scriptural Views on the New Earth
00:18:27
Speaker
Again, 2 Peter 3 13, we are looking forward to a new heavens and a new earth in which righteous dwells. But I don't think that's actually, that was true of Peter and his readers. They were the we.
00:18:41
Speaker
They were looking forward to New Heavens and New Earth and which races to earth. But does the average Christian really think in terms of a recreated universe where people made in God's image will continue to discover and do the things that serve and honor God and live in a world where there's art and there's music? We usually include music.
00:19:05
Speaker
but art and music and sports and literature and all the things that humans do.
00:19:15
Speaker
We don't become inhuman. We become the best humans we can possibly be. And I think our theology of heaven has suffered so much because we tend to think of the world to come like, well, we're going to be, you know, just angels, you know, and floating around disembodied, and we'll worship, but that's all we'll do.
00:19:37
Speaker
But the thing is, we will worship God, but everything we do will be in worship to God. So even in this life, 1 Corinthians 10.31, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
00:19:54
Speaker
Well, that means everything. Eating and drinking are just common things that people do. We will eat and drink in the world to come. About eight times in the Gospels, and Christ makes that absolutely clear. They'll come from the East and the West, Abraham, Isaac, sit at the table, and you eat at that table, and you tell stories, and you're real people, and it's not one who was once called Abraham.
00:20:20
Speaker
No, it's Abraham. It's Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the real actual people and we'll meet them so to me it's like all the effort and energy that I put into contemplating studying heaven Paid off immensely for both Nancy and now for me because I I am my
00:20:46
Speaker
I don't have vague notions of the world to come. I believe in the same way we can say, like somebody will say, well, I don't know what a new body will be like. Well, of course you do. You have a body. The new body will be the old body without all the bad stuff.
00:21:03
Speaker
Right? I mean, without the cancer and without dementia and without whatever. Same thing. Oh, we have no idea what the new earth will be like. Well, of course we do. We know what the earth is right now. That's our reference point.
00:21:19
Speaker
Take all the sin and suffering and corruption and everything bad in the world, the natural disasters, the tragedies, murders, and all the terrible things that happen. Take this prison world, eliminate all that, and you start to get a really good picture, I think, of the life to come.
00:21:42
Speaker
Wow, it's amazing. And you know, Randy, you don't need me to tell you this, but it's obvious in talking to you that your belief in Christ, your hope, your joy is vibrant and bright and such an encouragement. Just to hear you talk about heaven, it's an encouragement to me.
00:22:04
Speaker
And with that, I'm curious again, thinking about Nancy, how has your relationship with Jesus grown over the last year and a half? Well, it has grown tremendously. I would say more than anything else, the friendship of Jesus means more to me than it ever has. And it's always meant a lot to me. When I came to Christ,
00:22:34
Speaker
I first heard the gospel when I was 14 or 15, came to faith in Christ when I was 15, grew up in a non
Deepening Friendship with Jesus
00:22:43
Speaker
-Christian home. My dad was a tavern owner and never heard the gospel, never went to church. But when I came to Christ, I sensed the real presence of Jesus and he transformed my life.
00:23:02
Speaker
And that's been true over the years that I have sensed his closeness and his friendship. But since Nancy, who was my best friend in the human realm, of course Jesus is human and divine, both, but his words in John 15, I no longer call you servants, I call you friends.
00:23:26
Speaker
because the servant doesn't always know what the master's planning because he doesn't always tell him. But I'm going to tell you. I'm going to confide in you. And there's an intimacy and a closeness in that. He wants to call us friends. Had we come up with that idea, it would be blasphemy. You call yourself a friend of Jesus, the God of the universe, before whom all people should fall down on their face, and we will.
00:23:51
Speaker
But yeah, he calls us friends. And I tell you, Rush, I walk into my house and out of my house. And every day, I think of the presence of Jesus. I thought of the presence of Jesus. He's with me right now. He's with you right now. He's with anyone at whatever time they're listening to this. He is there. He not only indwells believers,
00:24:21
Speaker
He surrounds us. He's above us. He's under us. He's beside us. Every preposition you can come up with in a relationship to us. And that's the greatest growth and comfort that I've experienced is the closeness of Jesus and the reassurance that Nancy is with her best friend and
00:24:50
Speaker
my best friend is with me. And then one day all three of us will be together. In your experience, were there some things that surprised you about the experience of grieving Nancy? Were there some, some things that stand out in your mind that were just surprises to you as you, as you were walking along and are, and are walking along?
00:25:15
Speaker
Right. Yeah, there are things. I knew in theory, I've read a number of books on grief. I had read articles, listened to people speak on the topic. I knew that grief wasn't always going to be predictable, wasn't always going to be what you expect. But I
00:25:45
Speaker
I knew the holidays, for instance, would be especially difficult, and trust me, they have been, and everyone knows this, because Nancy was inseparable from Christmas. I remember thinking the same thing about my mom when she died, when I was about 30 years old when she died, and it was like, oh my gosh, Christmas, my mom was Christmas. She did everything.
00:26:14
Speaker
Well, then Nancy became inseparable from Christmas in my mind. So I knew that those things would be tough, but what was surprising was other things that were tough. For instance, on the opening day of the NFL season,
00:26:33
Speaker
I'm sitting there watching a game by myself. I mean, Gracie was there, but she's not really into football that much. And here I am, and there was no... Nancy was very exuberant as a fan.
00:26:50
Speaker
And even in games where her team the Seahawks were playing, she would be really excited and she would yell as if she was in a stadium. And then we'd go to the stadiums and she'd really yell and she has this whistle that she would just put her
00:27:11
Speaker
fingers in her mouth and just go off on the whistle and all. So our home was noisy, but in a very great way, uh, when football was going on and I'm sitting there and it's totally quiet. I'm a football fan also, but I'm not allowed football fan. And so, uh, all of a sudden I'm going, the silence was overwhelming and I just started weeping because
00:27:40
Speaker
I so miss Nancy because this is something she loved. And as I say, I think she still loves and one day on the new earth, you know, I wouldn't be all surprised if people are playing football and she's going and watching or playing or participating in whatever way. But my point is,
00:28:01
Speaker
her absence I've profoundly felt. Same thing with walking my dog. We always, Nancy was the dog walker in the family. I'm now the dog walker in the family. And we come across other dogs and Nancy would come back and tell me stories of the people she met
00:28:23
Speaker
and the dog she met, and then she would say, you know, I don't remember the people's name, but the dog's name was. But the funny thing was, the beautiful thing was how God used that. For instance, one couple, and there were a number of couples and individuals that she influenced through her dog walking,
00:28:47
Speaker
One couple that she got to know well came to faith in Christ, now goes to our church and has for years now. So those are the things where when that happens, I just miss Nancy so much because I feel like, wow.
00:29:06
Speaker
Do you know about the Small Book Devotions Bundle by New Growth Press? You can visit newgrowthpress.com to learn more. The Small Book Devotions Bundle includes four books, one by Paul Touches and three by Edward T. Welch. Those books are A Small Book About a Big Problem, A Small Book for the Anxious Heart, A Small Book for the Hurting Heart, and A Small Book About Why We Hide.
00:29:31
Speaker
book unpacks these topics in a 50-day devotional format. While many books exist on fear or anxiety or shame or suffering loss, promising to help men and women manage their struggles with methods and formulas, these devotionals reach deeper into Scripture, making the Word of God more accessible.
00:29:51
Speaker
We don't want to put a band-aid on our fear or anxiety or our hurting hearts. Rather, we want to bring these troubles to Jesus, relying on His word. And you can learn more about all four books in the Small Book Devotions Bundle by visiting NewGrowthPress.com.
00:30:11
Speaker
The story you told about her showing an interest in people with an eye on the gospel by taking an interest in their pets, I think is just really helpful because it seems to me that it's a bit of a lost art of even just showing interest in people.
00:30:28
Speaker
And being able to really have a desire and an ability to enter into someone's world is something that is so, so very needed among us. And I think it's just a great example. I'd like to shift gears just for a second and probably come back.
00:30:48
Speaker
here again. But it's just, I don't know that it's any more apt than it is in this moment to hear you talking about heaven, that your ministry is eternal perspective ministries. And while many people are familiar with your story, some are not. And I've read your story. I have heard it from other people. I would love to just hear briefly
00:31:13
Speaker
your story of ministry and you know over the years and how you have become known to people through your books.
00:31:22
Speaker
Sure, yeah. I went to a Bible college and seminary and a few of us started together a church in 1977, Good Shepherd Community Church, actually located, believe it or not, in Boring, Oregon. That church just took off
00:31:45
Speaker
and by Oregon standards became a very large church in a very short period of time. That was wonderful. That was beautiful. Nancy and I had gone to Bible college together and now
00:32:01
Speaker
I was finishing
Pro-life Activism and Legal Challenges
00:32:02
Speaker
up seminary. We started this church. And as time went on, we became more and more interested in pro-life related issues. And we just had a heart for not only unborn babies, but for women in unwanted pregnancies. And so we wanted to offer them alternatives, got involved with
00:32:28
Speaker
What were then called crisis pregnancy centers pregnancy resource centers, they're called different things now And actually was on the board of the original one in the Pacific Northwest pregnancy resource center and it was my job to Convince pastors that this is a ministry worth hearing about and worth having your people support so we did that and then after a while I
00:32:56
Speaker
just felt really the letter of the Lord to do more than I was doing, and we made the very difficult decision to, and this was a time where I had written just a few books, but we made the really difficult decision for me to do
00:33:17
Speaker
peaceful nonviolent civil disobedience at abortion clinics. Got arrested for that seven times in one year. Lawsuits were brought against the group of us who did that. I had gotten permission from the elders of my church to do that. But it's still...
00:33:38
Speaker
Some of them didn't agree with it, which I understood, but they said, hey, if this is your conviction from the Lord, and it was, you need to do what you believe is right. And so we did, but it ultimately resulted in me having to resign as a pastor to protect the church from lawsuits because the lawsuits against me were one thing, but I didn't feel the liberty to
00:34:06
Speaker
jeopardize the church, so they came to garnish my wages, but the church paid me what they owed me. And then suddenly, in 19, let's see, what was that, 1990,
00:34:23
Speaker
I had to resign as a pastor as a, what would I have been, 36 year old. I would have, if he would have asked me, what are you gonna be doing the rest of your life? I would have said, being a pastor and probably being a pastor at this church as far as I knew. And suddenly that was all gone. And furthermore,
00:34:48
Speaker
in order to keep the wages being garnished from going to abortion clinics. I had to make no more than minimum wage because by Oregon law,
00:35:01
Speaker
minimum wage is not garnishable. So that's what happened. And so for the next 20 years, I made minimum wage, but Nancy also worked for our ministry and we did find the ministry provided us with a car at one time, two cars, one for her, one for me, used cars that people had donated.
00:35:22
Speaker
And we did fine, but now I had to come up with something else. What am I going to do? We know for sure I can only be paid minimum wage, but what is it going to be? And we decided to start Eternal Perspective Ministries, and we named it that because of the verses in
00:35:44
Speaker
2 Corinthians 4 that talk about not looking at the things which are seen, but the things which are unseen. Whether the things that are seen are temporary, but the things which are unseen are eternal. And these light and momentary afflictions are producing in us an eternal weight of glory that far outweighs them all. All these scriptures that had to do with
00:36:10
Speaker
the truths about eternity and having an eternal perspective were so central in our lives that we just felt, well, let's call it that, even not knowing exactly what it will look like. We started
00:36:27
Speaker
eternal perspective ministries, and God laid on our hearts not only the pro-life issue, but world missions. We committed to give 100% of the royalties from my books to missions and pro-life work, which is its own missionary endeavor. And that has been true ever since, not a dime.
00:36:49
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goes to us and we just give it away to God's kingdom and that has been one of the greatest joys and privileges of our lives.
00:37:02
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That is amazing. I appreciate you telling the story here because it's helpful for me to hear again the way that God was faithful to you and to hear your courage and your boldness to really live in a way that's consistent with what you believe in. I think that's a great example. I'm always interested to know who has influenced
00:37:25
Speaker
these kinds of events that take place in somebody's life or the way that they live, the way you've just described. And I have the advantage that the listeners don't have. I can see you on the screen and I can see your bookshelf. And I see two people. I see CS Lewis and I think I see Spurgeon on the other side. And I would just love to hear, is there one big, if you boiled it down, big
00:37:53
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way that either of them or both of them have influenced you and have made a lasting impact on your life and ministry. Yes, absolutely. So this is my Spurgeon bobblehead. I see it. Yeah, he's bobbling. I'll tell you what, a friend gave this to me and it's kind of more precious than
00:38:14
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any athletic related bobbleheads that we've ever had. And yeah, Spurgeon had a huge impact on me, but Spurgeon's impact was after I became a pastor prior to being a pastor, C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and A.W. Tost were the three greatest influences. I read everything.
00:38:42
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that they wrote. I mean, everything. And it was a lot of stuff cumulatively between the three of them. Read it, loved it, and God used each of them to speak into my life in different ways.
00:38:57
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But then later, when I discovered Spurgeon, I went through Bible College and Seminary, and I swear the name Spurgeon was never mentioned. If it was, it had to be in passing and it didn't even register in my mind. But when I started reading first morning and evening his devotional, and then others of his books, and especially started reading through his sermons,
00:39:24
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I was blown away from the substance, the depth.
00:39:29
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the beauty of his writing, how incredibly articulate he was and his devotion to Christ. And certainly there are contemporary writers, including John Piper and a number of others that have and have had a great influence on me, but those were the ones that influenced me the most.
00:39:56
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Okay, so you may be thinking with me, how can I help the children in my family or church to live with heaven in view the way Randy is talking about today? I'd recommend to you, God Made Me for Heaven by Marty Michowski.
00:40:11
Speaker
Children have lots of questions about God in heaven. In God Made Me for Heaven, Marty Michalski shares deep theological truths through a creative story told through the perspective of a grandmother sharing her hope of heaven to her grandchildren and their friends. This picture book, beautifully illustrated by Trish Mahoney, includes a gospel presentation and speaks about eternity in simple language kids can understand.
00:40:38
Speaker
God Made Me for Heaven invites children to understand that God made each person for heaven and provided a way to get there through his son, Jesus. In heaven, there will be no more sickness, suffering, or death. Together with their parents and caregivers, children will have the opportunity to have life-changing conversations about how God invites each of us to live with him and enjoy him forever.
00:41:04
Speaker
You can learn more and order copies of God Made Me for Heaven by visiting NewGrowthPress.com. Is there one big truth or focal point that you found was especially impactful from C.S. Lewis? Wow. Yeah, there's so much to choose from. I would say this.
00:41:36
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Lewis's personality, who he was, was so attractive to me because the first of his books that I read is not what people would recommend first. They would probably recommend Mary Christianity or Chronicles of Narnia or Screwtape Letters or something like that. But I just saw it on a bookstore shelf and I had no idea when this is when I was
00:42:03
Speaker
probably 16 years old. And I'm reading all these books and I see C.S. Lewis meant nothing to me, but it was called The Problem of Pain. And here's a book on the problem of evil and suffering, little did I know that many years later, I would write multiple books on that subject. But so, It's The Problem of Pain, and as I'm reading it, he's talking about how not that long ago, when I was an atheist,
00:42:31
Speaker
Here's what I thought when I looked at suffering in the world. And then he explained that he did not believe there was a God, but if there was a God, that that God was cruel. He didn't use the word cruel, but that was the essence of it.
00:42:47
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And I thought he remembers what he thought as a non-believer. Well, I was a brand new Christian. I remembered like it was yesterday, because it almost was yesterday, what I used to think and what I was so confused about. And so then he would say, and now this is what I believe now. And to me, it was like he reinforced
00:43:10
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my transformed and continuously transforming worldview. And somebody said this about Lewis, something to the effect of every time he talked about anything,
00:43:25
Speaker
you could see his view of everything. And that was so true of me because I would read something by him and it would not simply relate to the subject he was talking about, but it would blow open new concepts and give me a greater vision for many other areas as well.
00:43:50
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Randy, I really could talk to you for hours. I could come up with questions that are meaningful and things that I would like to know, but we don't obviously have hours. So I wonder if I were to tie our conversation up by coming back to that question of grief and comfort, especially in light of Lewis's the problem of pain. I would like to know how you would comfort someone whose spouse has gone to heaven.
00:44:18
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How would you bring all of that comfort and truth together in that moment? I think people are, you know, obviously people are going through that and wondering, how do I comfort someone? And I would just love to hear your thought on that.
00:44:31
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Well, I was actually asking myself that question as I was writing the booklet for New Growth Press about what can I say in a relatively short booklet to help people who are facing loss and grief that inevitably comes from the loss. And so I've given a great deal of thought to it. And one of the things
00:45:01
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um is just the reality that all of us Will grieve and must grieve when we have lost a loved one And that we should embrace the fact That it's good that we're grieving Because grief is an indication of love If you don't love you will never grieve you'll never have anything to grieve about
00:45:32
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you know, even your own personal losses, you have to in some ways love yourself in order to grieve your financial losses or whatever it might be. But certainly when we lose a person,
00:45:47
Speaker
that was a huge part of our life. The more we love them, the more we grieve. I mean, that's just obvious. You know, so somebody we didn't know all that well, a co-worker that we never had lunch with, well, we grieve. We're sorry. We may go to their service, but it doesn't captivate our lives. But when you lose a child,
00:46:10
Speaker
or a spouse and then those other people too. Sometimes it's a father or mother, especially if it's a younger person who has lost them. It is just transformative because at first, not an hour goes by.
00:46:31
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where you're not crying or thinking about or struggling with and some people dealing with anger, whatever it is. But the first thing that hit me was it's right and proper that I'm grieving Nancy and I wouldn't want to feel good having lost her.
00:46:55
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And that was actually a big help. This is normal, this is natural. Now as time goes on, if a few years later you haven't begun to overcome your sense of degree of grief, there's been no progress. The grieving has not subsided in any way. I mean, it's still gonna be there. I'm certain the rest of my life that I will grieve the loss of Nancy, but
00:47:23
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It has been so encouraging to have Jesus with me and the sense that He grieves with me. And that's where Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 4 that talks about how He sympathizes with us in our weaknesses. He understands. And think about those two words, shortest verse in the English Bible, Jesus wept.
00:47:53
Speaker
I mean, wow, what was he weeping at? I don't think he was weeping so much that Lazarus had died because he knew he's going to raise Lazarus. But he's weeping for Mary and Martha, for people who are grieving the loss of their brother. And I just think
00:48:14
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That has been huge to me. God empathizes. God sympathizes. God knows what it's like to lose his only son. So you're not praying to someone and you're not angry at someone who doesn't understand. Yeah. You're not alone. Right. Yeah.
00:48:34
Speaker
Well, that is a fitting conclusion to what has really been a comforting and encouraging conversation with you, Randy. I am grateful for you having spent this time with me, and I really appreciate it. Great to be with you, Rush. Thanks.
00:48:54
Speaker
Thank you for joining me for this episode of Straight to the Heart. You can help more people know about the podcast by subscribing, sharing, and rating the show in Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our next episode releases in one week, and until then, I'm Rush Witt, and this is Straight to the Heart.