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Obsessive and Intrusive Thoughts with Mike Emlet
731 Plays5 months ago
In this episode of Straight to the Heart, our host Rush Witt talks with Mike Emlet who practiced as a family physician for over ten years before becoming a counselor and faculty member at the Christian Counseling & Educational Foundation (CCEF). They talk about difficult topics like intrusive thoughts and Scrupulosity, and the biblical wisdom that helps us overcome them.
MIKE EMLET ONLINE
Mike’s Website
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
Autism Spectrum Disorder (minibook)
Saints, Sinners, and Sufferers
For more about the podcast at New Growth Press online.
Timestamps:
1:21 - Why do you describe yourself as a cup half empty kind of guy?
4:25 - What’s the most recent cup-half-empty moment you’ve had?
6:45 - What do you mean when you refer to emotional buoyancy?
10:44 - The Intrusive Problem of Scrupulosity
14:49 - Why are we prone to intrusive, unwanted thoughts?
17:54 - When you counsel scrupulosity, what is the central approach you take?
23:54 - What does growth look like in the area of intrusive thoughts?
27:12 - How do we turn down the volume on intrusive thoughts?
33:55 - In what ways does our embodied nature affect us?
38:35 - Is Mike Emlet a hugger?
41:50 - Farewell
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Season 3
00:00:00
Speaker
I want to help normalize that just as we were talking earlier in terms of we all have intrusive thoughts, the question is what do we do with them?
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm Rush Witt and you're listening to Season 3 of Straight to the Heart, a podcast from New Growth Press. Each episode includes thought-provoking conversations with leading Christian writers and thinkers. We hear who they are, what they believe, how they approach their work in ministry, and the moments in people who have changed their lives.
00:00:31
Speaker
In Straight to the Heart, we go beyond the books to connect with the remarkable people behind them.
Mike Emlet's Journey
00:00:37
Speaker
In this episode of Straight to the Heart, I talk with Mike Emlet. I always enjoy spending time with Mike. His warmth and care comes through strong in our conversation. It's interesting, Mike practiced as a family physician for over 10 years before becoming a counselor and faculty member at the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation.
Intrusive Thoughts & 'Hugger' Concept
00:00:58
Speaker
Today, we talked about some difficult topics like intrusive thoughts and scrupulosity, which is a religious OCD. And we also talk about what it means to be a hugger. Yes, a hugger. And we discussed how the Lord is at work in all of it. This is Straight to the Heart.
00:01:20
Speaker
You know, I could give the listeners a little peek behind the curtain in that, obviously, you know, I send a few questions or kind of a guide where you can answer things that you would like to talk about or, you know, kind of what we can talk about. And I was interested, there's a question on there that says, what aspect of your Christian life do you feel most weak?
00:01:42
Speaker
And your answer was I trend toward melancholy. I'm naturally a cup half empty guy. And, you know, we've spent some time together and I don't think of you that way, but at the same time, I don't know. Maybe that we have interacted around.
00:02:00
Speaker
a lot of situations where determining what the status of the cup is is going to come up.
Melancholy vs. Hope
00:02:09
Speaker
It's interesting for me to read that and I don't think of you that way, but what do you mean when you say cup half empty kind of guy in your life?
00:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think, well, and it is recognized by others. I remember this was years ago. I had a counseling intern who gave me a gift as she, as she left. And it was a, it was a mug, a clear mug. And there was a line halfway up the mug that said, this cup is half empty. I was like, yeah, nailed it. So, you know, like, so yeah, I think it,
00:02:50
Speaker
Certainly, I think the trending in my life is toward the more melancholic side of things. Obviously, this is true for any of us. There are strengths and weaknesses for our particular temperamental tendencies. A strength of that is
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, seeing with clear eyes the hurt and the brokenness and the sin-stained nature of the world in our lives. So that's good. But then I also think that with that can come a tendency to
00:03:29
Speaker
struggle to root hope in what Christ has done and what he is doing, whether it's in my own life or in the lives of others. So it's an active, in a sense, needing to lean against that. But my natural bent is towards Eeyore or puddle glum, you know, in the silver chair in the Chronicles of Narnia. So I'd say that's, yeah, that's my
00:03:58
Speaker
when I'm kind of quiet and
00:04:02
Speaker
you know, contemplative in a sense, like, that's where my emotions tend to go. And so that's, I think, part of it remains a kind of a cutting edge of growth for me. What does?
Personal Story: Care for Mother
00:04:14
Speaker
Yeah, what does hope look like? What does it look like to be content in in Jesus in the midst of all these, these hard things? What does you know, what does joy look like? Yeah, that's really interesting to hear you say that. And I don't mean to jump right into like, deep personal things. But I guess I sort of am.
00:04:32
Speaker
what would you say is maybe the most recent cup half empty moment that you had where you, you struggled with that or how that was just characterized recently? You know, sir. Yeah, that's a good question. All right. Here's, here's a tiny cup half empty, uh, uh, moment, um, would be,
00:04:58
Speaker
For example, are we going to find someone to to care for my for my mom? Wow.
00:05:08
Speaker
so that my wife and I can go to my son's college graduation. I think that's the, do I approach that with a hope-filled expectation or am I thinking, I don't know, how's this gonna go? So I think that's, yeah, I think that's one, would be one moment when faced with
00:05:32
Speaker
whatever challenges, big or small, is my bent more on the hopeful realism side, or is it more on the, yeah, this could go south. That's interesting, yeah. I think I'm more half full.
00:05:53
Speaker
kind of guy. So it's interesting to talk about this. Um, yeah, my, my wife sometimes, uh, is a little nervous about me because, uh, you know, I think the way that she sees me is a little too rosy, glassed, you know, and, uh, kind of, uh, looking in that direction. And so she's a little nervous and maybe I'm overlooking something, uh, you know,
00:06:21
Speaker
negative or dangerous or something like that. Well, it's neat how the Lord pairs us, right? Like my wife is naturally more hopeful and optimistic and expecting, you know, the Lord to work. And so that's good. It's a good balance in that sense. Yeah, along the same topic, you used a term, emotional buoyancy.
00:06:50
Speaker
And what do you mean by that? I think similar in terms of where do my emotions tend to reside? Do they tend to reside on that more buoyant side of the equation when faced with particular challenges or hardships?
Emotional Buoyancy & Faith
00:07:13
Speaker
Is there a kind of native hope?
00:07:18
Speaker
optimism in a sense, not optimism in terms of like, ah, it's just going to work out. But you know, optimism that it's born in the fact that the Lord is at work, the Spirit is at work, and I can and I can count on that. So again, I think my, my natural tendency is more towards the
00:07:39
Speaker
again, melancholic sounds may be too strong, but at least towards that, that side rather than Oh, yay, kind of side, that's more of that emotional buoyancy. And so, yeah, so I think that's something that I seek to bring before the Lord because I want my
00:08:01
Speaker
I want my emotional life to be reflective of what he says about the world and what he's up to in the world and in our lives. Yeah. So as you study people and counsel them,
00:08:17
Speaker
When you do you notice in other people who have the same kind of disposition are other connected struggles that are kind of maybe maybe born out of that temperament or personality that that are common to the cup half half empty kind of view of the world or You know where there's some common struggles that you see come out a lot That's a good question, I think
00:08:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think probably high expectations, tendency toward perfectionism, those kinds of things might travel together. So maybe a higher propensity for self-critique and negativity, which, yeah. So I think that there are ways in which those trends may travel together.
00:09:19
Speaker
Okay, stop me if you've heard this one. A friend feels rejected. Or a counselor is angry. Or a church member's child is ill. You want to help, but where do you begin? You've been there too, right? Of
Book Promotion: 'Saints, Sinners, and Sufferers'
00:09:34
Speaker
course you have.
00:09:35
Speaker
Well, in his book Saints, Sinners, and Sufferers, author and counselor Mike Emlet outlines a model of one another ministry based on how God sees and loves his people, primarily as saints, while bringing comfort to the sufferer and faithfully speaking truth to the sinner.
00:09:54
Speaker
Filled with everyday illustrations as well as counseling examples, Mike Emmlet demonstrates what it looks like to approach fellow believers simultaneously as saints, sufferers, and sinners. He unpacks scripture and draws on his many years of counseling experience to help counselors, pastors, and friends love others wisely and well.
00:10:19
Speaker
As part of CCEF's Helping the Helper series, this guide for ministry provides an overall framework for wisely helping any person by loving others in the same way that God loves us. You can find this book and others by Mike Emmelt when you visit NewGrowthPress.com.
00:10:44
Speaker
Yeah. And I know that you are writing and have been working quite a bit in the area in terms of counseling and kind of personal struggles in the area of scrupulosity. And I remember hearing a talk that you gave. I want to say it was maybe it was a CCEF conference. I don't know. I feel like it was a different conference, but it was it was very helpful. And I wonder kind of what has been your path of
00:11:13
Speaker
kind of exploring that topic and growing in it. I don't know, maybe personally. I don't know if that's true or not, but especially in terms of helping other people who struggle with this.
Understanding Scrupulosity
00:11:24
Speaker
And honestly, you know, a lot of people who hear that word, scrupulosity, they may have never heard that word before. I don't know what that means.
00:11:32
Speaker
Yeah, so, well, maybe I'll kind of define it and then we can talk a bit about, well, how did I end up talking with folks who struggle in this way? In script-elacity, I mean, it's an old term in a sense. It's basically a particular struggle in which the
00:11:52
Speaker
If you will, the conscience is on hyper-alert for issues of moral failure or doubt or questions. So it can manifest itself. And it's been described for centuries, certainly in a Christian literature, but also in Judaism and Islam. People can be scrupulous in their particular
00:12:21
Speaker
religious traditions. But this idea that I have these generally intrusive thoughts that are persistent and they could be about salvation. So it could be assurance of salvation issues, it could be about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, if I committed the unpardonable sin.
00:12:45
Speaker
It could be about issues of moral exactitude. Was I honest enough in my confession of sin? Did I examine myself enough before I took the Lord's Supper? It would be another arena that you might see manifestations that we would call scrupulosity.
Intrusive Thoughts & Anxiety
00:13:08
Speaker
And then maybe one other one other place would be intrusive thoughts related to harm, you know, to self or to others. So have I
00:13:23
Speaker
I had this image of picking up a knife and stabbing a family member or something like that, which is just horrific, obviously, to experience. But that would be in that things that we would find morally and personally repugnant, but yet there they are, these intrusive thoughts.
00:13:45
Speaker
that under the modern day, that would fit under the modern day umbrella of obsessive compulsive disorder. So scrupulosity has also been called religious OCD or moral OCD. And for me, I think why did I get interested in this? These are the folks that the Lord brought to me over time at CCF as I've counseled.
00:14:15
Speaker
I certainly tend towards the perfectionistic side of the spectrum, but I wouldn't say personally that I would fall into that category of these intrusive, debilitating thoughts associated with
00:14:32
Speaker
it becomes associated with anxiety and needing to check or to be certain or to somehow do something to get out of that place of anxiety that's associated with these thoughts.
00:14:48
Speaker
Yeah. In the time that you've counseled people, do you find that these kinds of intrusive thoughts that become maybe in the more extreme cases, life dominating, that there's something that, that the person has always dealt with. It seems to be something maybe that's just, they're, they're prone to it. Or is there some kind of provocation that's brought it to mind? You know, I mean, everybody, I think everybody, if, if they
00:15:14
Speaker
stop to think about it, know that we all have intrusive thoughts. Even if they're really mild, like, I mean, I mean, I hesitate to give it.
00:15:25
Speaker
I hesitate to give examples from my life, but I just pull up to a stop sign and someone's crossing the street and I have this momentary thought of something really bad happening. And of course, I'm mortified by that. I know I don't want that to happen, but everybody has those things. I just wonder if you've seen
00:15:49
Speaker
You know, is it something that people tend toward? Is it something provoked? Because it's almost like once you start thinking about it, it's hard to stop or somebody suggests it to you. Even the idea of intrusive thoughts can be problematic. What have you seen in that way?
00:16:09
Speaker
So just, yeah, affirming what you said, that we all have intrusive thoughts at one point or
Counseling Approach & Storytelling
00:16:14
Speaker
another. I've had that exact same intrusive thought that you just described, you know, like step on the gas, you know, like why? But for the vast majority of us, we kind of say, well, that was weird. And we just move on. But for someone who might be prone, and I would say, how are people prone? I would say,
00:16:36
Speaker
There are probably a variety of ways that we're prone. Are there biological predispositions? Are there heart or thought dispositions? In other words, we see tendencies toward perfectionism. We see tendencies towards
00:16:55
Speaker
an over-inflated responsibility that tends to be part of the thinking pattern or an intolerance of certainty. Those thinking patterns are dominant in scrupulosity. People's environment that they grew up in, I've often talked with people who either in their home growing up, there was a very
00:17:19
Speaker
legalistic or oppressive or performance-oriented, or this is the way to do it, just a high level of precision, or church environments where that was the case. And I think all of those things may work together in an individual person, their heart before the Lord,
00:17:41
Speaker
familial or genetic predispositions, their experiences, all of those can work together, I think, in a particular person to manifest in this way. So as you have an opportunity to meet with people who struggle in this way, what is the central approach
00:18:00
Speaker
that you take to help them. I'm envisioning that there are listeners to a podcast episode like this, who as we talk about the subject, they recognize it in themselves. But I would think also for many, they just probably haven't talked to someone about it. I mean, like I said, I kind of has intended to talk about pulling up to the stop sign. And so if they're hesitant about that, they may not have
00:18:24
Speaker
a lot of good input on, okay, listen, here's how you can begin thinking about this in a biblical way that's helpful to you. How do you go about that with someone that you counsel?
00:18:38
Speaker
So I think you're right. People, particularly if they have thoughts of harm, whether it's related to themselves or related to others. For example, I'm thinking of someone who
00:18:56
Speaker
when he's doing the dishes and scraping food off the plate has the thought that
00:19:10
Speaker
he's actually harming someone in his church. The thought of a particular person as he's scraping the plate becomes associated with this, wait a minute, am I doing this to this person, tossing them into the garbage can?
00:19:28
Speaker
He would say, I know this is not logical. I know this is not rational. But that sense of fear and anxiety is so pervasive. So people are hesitant, I think, to say, I have this thought. And so it's a real privilege when people
00:19:48
Speaker
open up their lives to be able to say these things. So I think that's my starting place. I want to get their story. I want to understand as much as I can the various manifestations of this struggle.
00:20:03
Speaker
You know, and it's so very like some people were, it's more weighted towards issues of assurance. Some it's have I committed the unpardonable sin? Some it's, you know, am I a pedophile? I had this thought, you know, I'm a pedophile and it's I don't have any desire in that way, but it's, but it's so anxiety provoking. I want to get a sense of what is the
00:20:32
Speaker
what's the range of their struggles. I want to help normalize that we, just as we were talking earlier in terms of we all have intrusive thoughts, the question is what do we do with them when we get those thoughts? Another thing that we talk about is what are some of those underlying patterns of thinking that reflect
00:20:59
Speaker
a view of God or our view of selves or others. So perfectionism will have a particular view of God or a particular view of myself. Or I'm overestimating the threat of something. Well, what does that say about God or the way I view myself? So trying to understand how those underlying
00:21:27
Speaker
ways of looking at God and ourselves and Scripture actually then kind of amplify that thought and make it bigger and more serious than it needs to be. And then we just we talk about what are ways to
00:21:48
Speaker
appropriate a truer view of the Lord or ourselves and in the moment lean against that that anxiety or that or that thought so if if someone is
00:22:05
Speaker
you know, reluctant to take the Lord's Supper because they just haven't, they're not sure that they've gone through the catalog of sin in their lives, are they? We talk about, you know, the Supper is a place for sinners, you know, redeemed by Christ to come. And
00:22:25
Speaker
to face the ambiguity, right, of like, well, I don't, yeah, there's probably things that I'm not aware of here, but Christ bids me come and partake of this means of grace. So kind of leaning against the doubt and leaning against the fear or the, you know, the person who worries or has the intrusive thought that they're a pedophile, that they actually, rather than avoid
00:22:54
Speaker
hugging their child because they're so fearful. They face that that fear and do what is loving and good with their with their child. So I think those are some of the ways in which I would approach that. Yeah, actually, the last example, I have walked with a couple of people in counseling who have who have had a very similar struggle either, you know, related to
00:23:20
Speaker
to other people, children or adults where they may have an intrusive thought where they're imagining something graphic or something like that. And then it just becomes so alarming and so concerning of what it means. And then it's just so difficult to, you know, they're trying to get rid of the thought, I don't want to think this. Then it becomes a lot like the more you try not to think about elephants,
00:23:50
Speaker
You know, the more you think about them. When you have seen people struggle this way growing, what does that tend to not every, you know, obviously not every situation is the same, but what does it tend to look like? The path of improvement?
00:24:09
Speaker
You know, I think that for somebody that struggles like that, it's hard to imagine how's this ever going to go away. It's just going to one day go away. That doesn't make sense. You know, what is the path of improvement typically look like as you've seen people grow through this?
00:24:24
Speaker
I think some of that improvement is actually moving forward into partaking of those things
Facing Fears with Faith
00:24:33
Speaker
that they would be avoiding, whether it's going to church, whether it's reading scripture, whether it's praying, whether it's taking the Lord's Supper,
00:24:42
Speaker
So that doesn't mean that it's easy or it doesn't mean that they aren't filled with anxious thoughts and anxiety in the midst of that, but they are facing their fears with the Lord's help and moving into it.
00:24:59
Speaker
And it's interesting, even centuries ago, Ignatius of Loyola talked about doubting your doubt and doing the opposite. And that principle holds true for today. We do the opposite of what our fears are telling us because we don't want to say, oh, just because I've had this thought, this is an accurate view of reality.
00:25:29
Speaker
With the Lord's help, you know, I move forward into those areas where I'm fearful, where I'm doubting.
00:25:39
Speaker
I want to tell you about an important mini book by Mike Emmlet. Autism spectrum disorder is one of several neurodevelopmental disorders that can cause developmental deficits or differences in brain processing. And these impair persons functioning in many different settings. ASD in the United States is estimated to affect at least one to 2% of the population.
00:26:05
Speaker
But how can we as Christians minister well to those who exhibit the struggles typical of this condition? Counselor and physician Mike Emlet helps us understand how to thoughtfully and compassionately apply a biblical worldview to serve the substantial numbers of children and adults diagnosed with ASD.
00:26:28
Speaker
He briefly describes autism spectrum disorder and explains some general strategies for ministry to individuals on the autistic spectrum. Though this is a complex and often poorly understood experience, this resource offers a basic framework for helping and supporting members of the ASD community by applying the truth of scripture and gaining a better understanding of current medical research.
00:26:55
Speaker
I hope you'll visit NewGrowthPress.com to learn more about Mike Emlet's books and many books like Autism Spectrum Disorder.
00:27:10
Speaker
I don't know if it's a helpful question or not. When someone is gaining some progress in this area of whether it's scriptulosity or intrusive unwanted thoughts or some of these really alarming thoughts that they're having, do you find that as they move forward, they eventually just overcome those thoughts and they just don't happen anymore?
00:27:39
Speaker
Or do you find that there's kind of an ongoing, low-grade struggle that just is gonna, you know, for some, is just gonna be a part of life until Jesus returns, so we go to be with him, and, you know, I wonder what that's been like in your experience.
00:27:58
Speaker
It seems more to be the latter in a sense that perhaps what's happening over time is the volume on those thoughts gets turned down. They're more able to recognize the thoughts for what they are. Like this doesn't have to be, I don't have to assume this is true about me. So recognizing it more and being able to move on
00:28:28
Speaker
more quickly from that place, I think, are all marks of growth. But I think, for the most part, there's that tendency, at least, is there. And in some ways, and I've talked about this with folks, there's something truly heroic about living, ironically, the person who feels like their faith is absolute weakest. Am I even a Christian?
00:28:58
Speaker
entering into the space where they are saying, well, even though I'm not feeling very comfortable with this right now, it's sort of like,
00:29:11
Speaker
Peter saying to Jesus, you have the words of eternal life. Where else can we go? You know, in John six, and there's something that is, it's heroic about that, right? In terms of, I am going to move toward Christ, even though I am not feeling it right now, but I, but this is what is true. I'm taking, I'm taking scripture and what he says is true. Even if there are times that I doubt that, or, you know, have the thought, does God really exist? You know, that that's pretty,
00:29:41
Speaker
heroic to me in terms of in terms of faith. So much of what you know, I do is yeah, combined with feelings that are in line with my thoughts and my will. But I think that's one of the effects of the fall is that we see that we see fracturing of our of our thoughts and our in our emotions and our actions. And so this is one place where that it's hard to see that that fracture fully healed, perhaps.
Embodied Practices in Discipleship
00:30:10
Speaker
Well, Mike, I've always appreciated about you that you are thorough and careful in dealing with topics that are really challenging. And this obviously is one of them. I'm also just curious to ask you, are there other topics that are on your mind and heart that you've been working on? And in terms of teaching or writing,
00:30:34
Speaker
Yeah, something that I've taught in my Counseling and Physiology course, but just more recently and turning into an article in the Journal of Biblical Counseling is
00:30:50
Speaker
embodied practices for discipleship and counseling. In other words, what are some of the practical implications that we are body and soul, body and spirit? Like theologian John Murray says, you know, it's more accurate to say
00:31:10
Speaker
We are body rather than we have a body as though like the body is something that's kind of in tow and the real the real meat is our soul. It's like actually God created us body spirit.
00:31:26
Speaker
beings. And so what does it look like in our own discipleship and growth in Christ to take the body seriously? So I'm trying to consider that from scripture and in practice.
00:31:43
Speaker
Yeah, being embodied image bearers is probably something that, you know, a number of people, listeners, others just haven't really maybe come across or, or really given much thought to in their own lives. So, you know, if you, if you were speaking to one of those people that just hasn't, I shouldn't say that one of those people.
00:32:03
Speaker
If you were speaking to someone that hasn't really thought much about that and that's not on their radar, what do you point to? Like, let's imagine it's me. What do you point to in my life and experience of life as a Christian to show me, you see, you are an embodied image bearer and that matters because
00:32:26
Speaker
XYZ. Yep, dot, dot, dot. Yeah. Well, even the fact that we're, we're having this conversation isn't is an embodied phenomenon. Like we can't we don't do, we don't do life apart from from our bodies. We take that we take that for granted.
00:32:45
Speaker
So I think the question is, how can we become more self-conscious about the use of our bodies as we worship the Lord, as we're in relationship with one another? So I think what I would highlight for a person is,
00:33:04
Speaker
Notice how all of life is sensual in that sense. In the best sense of that word, I'm seeing, I'm hearing, I'm tasting, I'm touching, I'm tasting.
00:33:19
Speaker
And we see that in Scripture. I mean, obviously the very first thing that we see is that God creates people, body and soul. He actually starts with dust and then he breathes life into that dust. So we're embodied souls.
00:33:39
Speaker
But even after the fall, you look at the way God, what he prescribes for his people in terms of worship, it's very sensual in that sense. You see it in the sacrificial system in terms of the multiple senses that are involved there, right?
00:34:03
Speaker
there's a killing of the animal, the sacrifice of the animal. And in certain offerings, you're actually partake of the meat. There's the smell of the meat as it's roasting. Well, that's
00:34:23
Speaker
part of being a worshipper of God. You see it in the Passover meal. God institutes a meal for His people, and then the feast of unleavened bread becomes part of the regular rhythm of
00:34:44
Speaker
Israelite worship. People set up memorials after the people cross the Jordan to go into the Promised Land. They are instructed by the Lord to pick up rocks from the dry riverbed of the Jordan to take over and stack as a memorial
00:35:06
Speaker
This is what God did. Just as he parted the Red Sea and we walked through, as we left Egypt, he is doing this now so that we can go into the promised land. And anyone who would look at those, that pile of rocks would be like, ah, this is... So here's a visual reminder that sends me to worship, that reminds me of who God is.
00:35:31
Speaker
You see that all, you know, all throughout the Old Testament. And then in the New Testament, it's not like, okay, the body doesn't matter anymore. You see the sacraments, you see the Lord instituting his supper, a meal, and you see baptism.
00:35:51
Speaker
And so these are practices, bodily practices that he uses as means of grace to draw near him. So I think sometimes we can be
00:36:07
Speaker
overly cognitive as we think about the Christian life. And I think what we see in Scripture is this is a whole person phenomenon. Present your bodies, Paul says. This is your act of spiritual worship. And so, yeah, even in worship services, you think about how
00:36:30
Speaker
what we hear the word, we sing. There's something different about singing than just reading words on a page. We shake someone's hand, we re-rise, we sit, we kneel. All of those things are
00:36:52
Speaker
are part of what we do is embody beings to worship the Lord. Yeah, I really value our conversation about this actually, Mike, because your words are helping me right now because it's bringing to mind for me, I'm thinking about my life as you're talking about this and kind of where does this connect in to my life? And you know, I
00:37:12
Speaker
I think I'm a little socially awkward in some situations and it's it's bodily because it has to do with I don't always know what should I hug this person and I'm not an overly touchy person you know like some people they're just they're just
00:37:34
Speaker
I don't know if it's more affectionate, but you know, they'll reach out and they'll put a hand on your forearm or they'll, they'll give you a hug. I have, you know, really close friends at church who are very, very huggy, you know, and, and I, I don't know. I think I'm maybe I'm like a middle hugger because I'm not, I have known someone who actually I knew someone, uh, who would say, uh, you can hug me, just don't touch me.
00:38:00
Speaker
because he did not like being hugged. And I'm not there. But I'm also not all the way on the other end. I'm probably somewhere in the middle. But anyway, what I'm getting at is this is connecting with me because I need to give better thought to how I am using my body in interacting with people. I'm just thinking even just at church.
00:38:20
Speaker
You know, because sometimes that's just my ignorance. I don't really know what the right thing to do is or what's going to be received or, you know, so it's really helpful to think about. That's a good entry point for me in thinking better about this topic, you know, or where are you? Where are you on the hug scale?
00:38:39
Speaker
Probably on the higher end of that. Not the high. You're a hug half full. Yeah, exactly. That's funny. But that is really helpful.
00:38:57
Speaker
Yeah, what are you talking about? I'm seeing it play out even in my own private devotional times, for example. Now, some of it is trying to stay awake, but it's also, there's something about standing while I'm reading and praying or praying out loud that
00:39:25
Speaker
or kneeling when praying shows even changing my posture is reminding me this is who this is who this is the king that I serve he's my father he's also the king and I bow and I bow before him
00:39:42
Speaker
or during worship service. I've started raising my hand during the benediction, as our minister gives the benediction, as a bodily act of reception of this good word that the Lord is giving us through our pastor.
00:40:03
Speaker
I don't I don't suppose there's any way to know it. I don't know how helpful it would be to know it if we could. But I do wonder how much of that is that what made me think of it was the comment about raising your hand. How much of that is especially in worship is personality.
00:40:20
Speaker
or maybe some of church background, people that feel the freedom to raise their hands and worship, others don't. Not that there would be anything wrong with it, it's just not their approach, their style of worship.
00:40:37
Speaker
Yeah, I wonder. But again, that's to your point. I mean, it's just trending back into we are body and soul. We are blended together. It's we are not simple and we cut and dry. It's just this simple. It's a it's a blend. It can be complicated. And so I can see I can see the value of just thinking better about the topic of being embodied image bearers for sure.
Physical Habits & Spiritual Life
00:41:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Even it's interesting that earlier this morning, having a conversation with Aaron Cerrone, one of my colleagues, who's doing some work thinking about the connection between the physical and the spiritual as it relates to exercise and bodily stewardship. And so I think that's also a fruitful place to think about. I mean, I certainly notice when my,
00:41:30
Speaker
bodily habits, whether it's eating or exercise are, are poor like that. There's a way in which that can very much interpenetrate with what my, what my spiritual life looks like. So, so I think there's some really fruitful, fruitful thinking to do there. As our time comes to an end, Mike, I again, just want to say how much I appreciate you, the time that we've had. And I mean, you can tell just by our conversation, um,
00:41:58
Speaker
It's an enjoyable conversation to talk with you and talk about these important topics. Thank you, Rush, for having me. And it's a pleasure also just getting to know you over the years as well. So in that sense, it's a wonderful opportunity for us to connect personally during this time. So I'm thankful for it. It is. Thanks. I'm thankful for it, too.
00:42:22
Speaker
Thank you.
00:42:40
Speaker
And if you'd like to learn more about past seasons of our podcast, you can visit newgrowthpress.com forward slash podcast. Our next episode will appear next week, wherever you get your podcasts.