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A Dream and a Question | Todd Pinkston
131 Plays2 months ago
Todd is the President and Founder of WayForward Adventures, loves working alongside his wife and best friend, Erin, and is dad to three great kids. Todd and Steven talk about Todd’s story; identity, taking risks, growth and vulnerability, relationships, and WayForward Adventures. Join them in the journey of becoming Unstuck and Alive.
Learn more about WayForward Adventures at WayForwardAdventures.com
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to Todd Pinkston
00:00:57
Steven J. Neuner
Hey guys, it's Nooner here. We're here with, man, someone really, really special. And I'm just really excited to be here today with Todd Pinkston. So Todd is not just the founder and president of Wayforward Adventures. He's not just a co-author on the book we've got coming out called Unstuck and Alive.
00:01:21
Steven J. Neuner
He has become a real great friend, a brother in Christ, and just someone I've really, really grown to love. Todd, like me, has married way out of his league.
00:01:35
Steven J. Neuner
He's got a beautiful wife, Erin, who's in the ministry with him and along with three beautiful children. and And look, yeah I'm just really excited. Todd's got you know an incredible career. He's got a incredible resume, but more than any of that, he's got soul and grit of someone who just loves the Lord and is doing his work
Todd's Life Journey and Personal Growth
00:02:01
Steven J. Neuner
fiercely. So if you're if you've ever felt stuck or unalive, or you're just longing for some clarity, you're in for a treat.
00:02:10
Steven J. Neuner
So welcome, Todd.
00:02:13
toddpinkston
Stephen, thanks for the introduction. Man, it's an it's an honor to be here. Love having conversations with you. We've had many unrecorded and excited to be doing this together. So thanks for the time.
00:02:25
Steven J. Neuner
Too bad we don't record our unrecorded ones. Those are probably the best ones.
00:02:27
toddpinkston
I know.
00:02:29
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah, I know, right?
00:02:29
toddpinkston
The best gold in there. I know, seriously.
00:02:32
Steven J. Neuner
It's like, dang it, why weren't we recording?
00:02:33
toddpinkston
yeah
00:02:33
Steven J. Neuner
those and At least there we're legends in our own mind for a moment, you know?
00:02:40
Steven J. Neuner
That's right. Well, I want to start like just having you tell us a little bit about your story.
00:02:45
Steven J. Neuner
If you think about your you know life and sort of were we're writing about being unstuck and alive, where what were the the moments that you feel like you've had your, you know, things have really cracked open for you?
00:02:58
toddpinkston
Yeah. Man, I was thinking about during during your introduction, You know I've never been a resume guy. I don't even know that I've ever made a resume I've never turned it in for a job and
00:03:09
Steven J. Neuner
Hmm.
00:03:12
toddpinkston
I think about, you know, the virtues. You've got resume virtues and got eulogy virtues. And there's this passage in Philippians where Paul is sending these two brothers.
00:03:24
toddpinkston
And he lays out, mean, he almost devotes a whole, like a half a chapter to, I think it's Timothy and Epaphroditus. And he talks about them. And the question that always goes through my mind is like, man, if somebody was sending me, like, what would they say?
00:03:39
toddpinkston
And dude, honestly, I mean, the, the, uh, the introduction just gave is, you know, I would hope it would be something like that of not, he graduated from this school and this was his GPA and, you know, but this was the organization, but man, this is who he is.
00:03:39
Steven J. Neuner
Mm-hmm.
00:03:53
toddpinkston
And, uh, I feel like the Lord has, has shaped me in so many of those ways through people and, through, through his word and through truths. And so, uh, yeah, I was,
00:04:04
toddpinkston
I was not raised in in a Christian
Spiritual Awakening and Influence of Tom Young
00:04:06
toddpinkston
house. We went to church every now and again, but we were not, you know, weekly churchgoers. You know, the Bible wasn't opened regularly. And I i'm met the Lord my senior year. before Before my senior year, I met him on a camp out with my Young Life leader, a guy named Tom Young.
00:04:27
toddpinkston
And the Lord has used a a few men in my life to to really answer some questions that the that I wrestled with a lot growing up.
00:04:38
toddpinkston
And, you know, we all have questions that drive us and they they come out of our childhood.
00:04:42
Steven J. Neuner
you
00:04:43
toddpinkston
They come out of the way we're raised. Our parents do the best job they can. But just like my kids will grow up with questions that that they'll have to go to the Lord for answers, I too had that. And there were two questions that that I wrestled with growing up. And then the first one was, am I worth pursuing?
00:05:01
toddpinkston
And when I was in high school, the Lord sent a man named Tom Young into my life that was absolutely inspiration or instrumental in me understanding God's love for me and and who I am as a man. And so Tom stepped into my world as a sophomore in high school.
00:05:18
toddpinkston
And for three years, he just kept showing up. He could have done whatever he wanted. He could traveled the world and golfed his wife were successful. And he came to the high school multiple times a week and showed up in my life. And he showed up in my games. He showed up in the classroom, in the lunches. And and we would hang out all the time. And he invited me on on a trip the summer before my senior year.
00:05:42
toddpinkston
And it was it was on that trip that I felt like God came into my life and The words that I felt like I heard from the Lord in that moment were taught, I don't care about rules.
00:05:52
toddpinkston
I just want to know you. And to me, you know, I never had any beef with with God or Jesus. What I didn't love is all the the rules that came along with Christianity. And so that's what kept me from from, you know, wanting to pursue a
Redefining Christianity and Life Perspective
00:06:06
toddpinkston
relationship. And in that moment, I realized it was more about a relationship, not about the rules. And for me, you know, nuer I don't know that I could ever,
00:06:15
toddpinkston
look at my life and feel like I felt a call to ministry. But what I did feel is I felt like what I had been searching for for 18 years of my life and, you know, pursued it, pursued the answer in lots of different areas.
00:06:29
toddpinkston
what I felt like in that moment is that God said, this is where it is. Like, this is where life is. Uh, and to me, it was like, gosh, what else could I do with my life that would be more meaningful than helping other people discover this? Uh, and so, you know, I just felt like that was a, an invitation, not just for my own relationship with the Lord, but an invitation into, helping, you know, other people find that as well and living a life of purpose.
Transition from Football to Ministry
00:06:56
Steven J. Neuner
So if I could real quick, so just I'm curious, right?
00:06:56
toddpinkston
And so,
00:06:59
toddpinkston
Absolutely.
00:07:00
Steven J. Neuner
You talked about ways that you'd pursued that, right? So you'd been pursuing that for for years. what did What did that look like? what is what What did you find that you thought was true that wasn't before you found the truth?
00:07:16
toddpinkston
Yeah, absolutely. You know, i think we look around. no matter what age we are, we look around at the people that we think have it together and we try to and we try to mimic them. And so for me, i I played football and so it was the guys in the locker room. When you look around,
00:07:34
toddpinkston
They partied on the weekends. They were great at sports and they had, you know, they had a girlfriend. They they they sought, you know, affirmation in a relationship with a girl. And so to me, those were the things I invested my life in.
00:07:48
toddpinkston
I put a lot of stock into how I performed on Friday nights. And, you know, just when you get that picture, you've got thousands of people that are in the stands that are coming out to watch a group of folks play a sport.
00:08:01
toddpinkston
And it's like, man, that's identity. and if you play well, you get pats on the back and people say great job and they they want to be around you. If they don't, they pretend like they don't know you. And so, you know, all throughout the week, it was that, you know, that drive for the accolades and also that fear of, you know, of failing. and I think that to me was this roller coaster of you think you find life when you perform well, but you realize it's empty and it's fleeting and and next Friday is coming. and
00:08:35
toddpinkston
so there was that there was, you know, certainly partying on the weekends and and girls. And I think it was. you know It's nothing else. it was It was looking around at what other people had and trying to get those things and just realizing like, man, this is not this is not satisfying. and you feel like you you have to have more.
00:08:54
toddpinkston
You have to continue to to fill the bucket back up. And so that's where I felt like, man, when I when i met the Lord, it was a it was a it was an affirmation of identity based on nothing I could do, but based on who I am.
00:09:11
toddpinkston
And that's where I think the the words of I don't care about rules, I think to me was like, Todd, you don't have to perform any longer.
00:09:11
Steven J. Neuner
love that.
00:09:14
Steven J. Neuner
Mm-hmm.
00:09:19
toddpinkston
you don't have to You don't have to check all these boxes for me to be satisfied. I just want to know you.
Founding Wayforward Adventures
00:09:27
toddpinkston
And, you know, yes, there's absolutely obedience in walking in a relationship with the Lord.
00:09:33
toddpinkston
There are absolutely, you know, some some do's and don'ts. But I think when we miss out on the heart of why did why did the Father send his son to die on a cross for us, he he did that because there was something in the way of a relationship with him, and he took care of that so that we could know him.
00:09:53
toddpinkston
And to me, i mean, nuonar that changed everything. Like literally, i felt like I won the lottery.
00:09:56
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:10:00
toddpinkston
Like I found the ticket. And what was cool is like there was other tickets as well that you could give people. And to me, it just it was it was this inherent purpose of like, dude, you've got an opportunity.
00:10:15
toddpinkston
And i've i've I've said it oftentimes of like, why did I why did I start doing Young Life when I was in college? Because I had the thought if Tom Young didn't drive down the road and show up at my high school, I don't know that I would that would know Jesus.
00:10:28
toddpinkston
And man, there's, there's high school kids down the road that if I, you know, am too busy and hung up on my own stuff as a college kid to drive 10 minutes down the road and hang out with them, then man, they're not going to get the opportunity to know the, the transformational love that I know.
00:10:44
toddpinkston
so I did it and, and, as I played football in college at a D2 school, and it was it was fun. It was it was a great experience. you know I was never going to go on and play at the next level, and but I got an opportunity to play there, and it it was fantastic. I loved it.
00:10:59
toddpinkston
played at the University of Central Arkansas. But, man, as I as i you know continued in my college career – my love for you know doing Young Life and and sharing the gospel grew, and my love for playing a sport on Saturdays you know shrunk. And I played three years, took an early retirement, you know and ended up ended up going to be in a backpacking guide at a young life camp called wilderness ranch. and that's where I fell in love with what I get to do now, which is, you know, outdoor ministry. And it's a model of ministry in which you take things away and and you're not adding things to, you're not, you know, it's not a big program.
00:11:35
toddpinkston
And so I did that for two summers. And then i was on, I was on young life staff in Dallas going through a master's program at DTS. And then in 2013, guy asked me a question that, that,
00:11:49
toddpinkston
changed my life.
00:11:50
Steven J. Neuner
And I want to get to that. I want to get to that. Before we get to that question, I'm curious, right, for just for for those.
00:11:52
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:11:56
Steven J. Neuner
So you said when you were playing football, right, your love for what you were doing in young life was growing and your love for football was diminishing.
00:12:06
Steven J. Neuner
Slow down the game footage on that, like since we're using the sports analogy here, right? like Let's watch the game footage.
00:12:10
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:12:12
Steven J. Neuner
What specifically was happening in your life and what you were doing on both fronts that affirmed affirm that Cause that's a big change.
00:12:21
toddpinkston
yeah
00:12:21
Steven J. Neuner
Your whole identity, right give it you give your life to the Lord and yet you're still playing the thing.
00:12:22
toddpinkston
I think, yeah.
00:12:27
Steven J. Neuner
Right. And then, so so talk talk to me about that.
00:12:29
toddpinkston
yeah
00:12:30
Steven J. Neuner
And I'm hoping that whoever's listening, like can hear, like hear this for themselves as well. Cause we all have things like that, I think.
00:12:41
toddpinkston
Totally. a and and just, just so you know how deep it was for me, I when I decided to quit my junior year, I continued going to practice for three weeks before I did it. Like to me, the idea of not being a football player was so foreign that even though I quit in my mind, I knew I wasn't going to play the next year.
00:13:08
Steven J. Neuner
Right.
00:13:08
toddpinkston
I continued to go to practice because I didn't know. i didn't know what I would do with myself. Like I didn't know who I would be if I wasn't spending six hours a day. even in the off season, and doing this deal. And so you're right. i mean, i from my seventh grade year three through my junior year of college, playing football was was so ingrained with who I was.
00:13:35
toddpinkston
And you're good at it. You get affirmed at it. Your buddies play. And It just is, you know, it's an awesome thing. I mean, I look at it for my kids. I learned so much about hard work, about, you know, especially in in the world of, you know, today, when you can say whatever you want on the internet and nobody gets the opportunity to, you know, refute you.
00:13:58
toddpinkston
Man, when you play sports, there is a there's a moment of reckoning. And that's on that's on Friday nights or on Saturday.
00:14:02
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:14:04
toddpinkston
And you can say whatever you want throughout the week. But the reality
Courage and Obedience in New Ventures
00:14:08
toddpinkston
is you have to go out there and play. and And I love that. I mean, it's like, man, what a great opportunity to just put your money where your mouth is and go for it.
00:14:19
toddpinkston
Yet for me, it was, it had become so much of my identity that when the Lord started to move me in the other direction and, and I fully believe God used this this sport to get me out of Dallas, Texas, into a smaller town in in in in Arkansas, into a new place where I knew nobody.
00:14:41
toddpinkston
I had this opportunity to not be who I used to be, but be this you know be this new person. And it was great and humbling too, because you know i i I had a good high school career. I was you know i was i was well known for for playing football.
00:14:55
toddpinkston
Man, in college, you know no I'm five ten and white. you know i mean like I'm an average Joe, and i was I was nothing special on the football team.
00:14:59
Steven J. Neuner
Bye.
00:15:05
toddpinkston
I made the team. I played special teams. I got to start a few games, but I was never going to be the one that people talked about, and that was humbling and good you know for me to realize, hey, like
Partnership with Erin
00:15:15
toddpinkston
you're not all that.
00:15:16
toddpinkston
And also the Lord was taking that identity away. And I think for me, when I sat around and thought, like, what consumed me? It wasn't, it was no longer that, man, I want the affirmation of what happens on the field.
00:15:30
toddpinkston
It was, man, there's these kids down the road that I want to share Jesus with. And i don't, there's no other way to put it. Like, it doesn't, you know, I wasn't getting...
00:15:42
toddpinkston
My school wasn't getting paid for by, you know, doing Young Life. The kids were hard. i mean, the kids that I was was interacting with were, they had different hobbies than me. They were skateboarders. They were, you know, they were rough kids and they were not like the the kids I grew up with.
00:15:58
toddpinkston
But I just felt this burning passion inside of like, that's where I want to be. That's where my purpose is. and even though it made sense to play sports and that's what I was there for, I had to come to the realization that God used something to get me to a place to open up my eyes, to see something else.
Philosophy of Wayforward Adventures
00:16:19
toddpinkston
And even though I stayed probably on the team longer than I should have, man, I look back and it's like, it's clear as day. God brought me to the University of Central Arkansas to meet my wife, who was a small town Arkansas girl. And man, I would, you know, I would not be the same man without her. And and I, you know, i love you talked about her in the introduction because we are a true partnership and we do everything together. And and I love Erin to death. i mean, she's, she is my partner. She's my best friend.
00:16:46
toddpinkston
And, And he also brought me to the University St. Arkansas so that I could walk away from something that I found so much identity in to pursue something that didn't make sense, but was where I was finding joy in life.
00:16:59
Steven J. Neuner
All right. one One more question on this. And then I want to go but the question to the question that you mentioned.
00:17:01
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:17:05
Steven J. Neuner
But just so i like I think, again, this is just this matter, like what's happening, I see often. And so I'm curious for you, like. I'm sure your love is growing.
00:17:18
Steven J. Neuner
it doesn't make sense fully, but it it's making a lot of sense, right? what what are the What are the things that were like required courage the most as like, you know, you're walking away, but now you're going into something totally new, right?
00:17:33
Steven J. Neuner
This is a eternal game, but like stakes and this is, and but its it's still football. Like there's things that you like, you've got replace your running. And so I'm curious where where the greatest courage was required for you in that.
00:17:48
toddpinkston
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of courage, and and and I'll talk about Bill Strahan here in a minute, but Bill's taught me a lot about when to sunset something. Like, there's a lot of courage, not just in starting, but in letting go,
Overcoming Fear and Support Systems
00:18:00
Steven J. Neuner
Mm-hmm.
00:18:00
toddpinkston
in in stopping something.
00:18:02
toddpinkston
And to me, wrestling with quitting was a big deal. Like, I'm not a quitter. You know, you you said the word grit. i mean, I take that as a huge compliment, that you would you would describe me as somebody having grit,
00:18:16
toddpinkston
To me, the idea of like, if something gets hard, it just requires more of you. And the idea of quitting is just, it's not on the table. It's like, if you know you're in, you know, when WayForward started, we jumped in with two feet, left what we were doing, we were all in. It's like, we're going to figure this thing out.
00:18:32
toddpinkston
When the Lord called me away from football, yeah I wrestled not so much with walking away, but with the idea of quitting and sitting in somebody's office and saying, I'm done.
00:18:40
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:18:43
toddpinkston
and And that required a lot of courage. and It, I actually, you know, which was brought me to the next thing. I decided, okay, I can't quit without something to go to.
00:18:54
toddpinkston
And so I looked up and found this, you know, this Young Life camp that did backpacking trips and thought, man, that'd be cool. I've been on a backpacking trip. That'd be fun to be a guide.
00:19:02
toddpinkston
And I looked at what was required and I thought, well, i don't have any of the gear. Like, I'm totally not qualified. I guess I'll apply. And if I get it, that's my sign. Like, that's that's what the Lord, that's the that's the door the Lord is opening.
00:19:02
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:19:15
toddpinkston
So was kind of the, like, you know, the fleece moment of this is totally, this doesn't make any sense.
00:19:18
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:19:21
toddpinkston
And when I got that, it was like, okay, I, this is, this is where the Lord's calling. and I probably, I probably should have quit no matter what, whether I got the job as a backpacking guide or not, but that was God's affirmation of like, I'm inviting you into something else and you can't do both.
00:19:29
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:19:36
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:19:36
toddpinkston
so it took courage on, you know, took, it took humility to walk into somebody's office, uh, and, and quit and,
00:19:44
toddpinkston
Also, you know, no matter what the decision is you're gonna have people that don't understand you're gonna have you know I had players that you're alongside of it man It's never fun to quit a team when when people are you're working alongside of somebody you you have a common goal But to me, it's like all of those virtues are they're amazing to have in your life But they all pale in comparison to obedience and when God calls that that is the only thing that matters and Yes, you should have people in your life that but can help affirm that call, but there's always going to be people that don't understand, that look back at you, that said, man, I thought we were in this together.
00:20:22
toddpinkston
And hopefully, if they know Jesus, they'll they'll come around to understanding. And I've experienced that as well. You know, people not understanding a call and then coming around. But if they don't, man, sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. and And so I would say the two things that were really difficult was friendships and then also just the idea of of walking away, of of quitting.
00:20:43
Steven J. Neuner
Love it, man. Thank you for letting me drill into that a little bit because I just think there's some gold there.
00:20:44
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:20:47
toddpinkston
Absolutely. like
00:20:50
Steven J. Neuner
So, yeah. So now the question, right? The question. So i and but just real quick, just so I frame can frame it. I mean, like, just like I love that there's like this sense of, you know, the freedom from and saying no and stepping away. But in coach a lot, we do.
00:21:07
Steven J. Neuner
we talk a lot about freedom
Inspiration and Motivation
00:21:08
Steven J. Neuner
too. And so is stepping into deeper, he provided that monkey bar, you grabbed it, and you you know you're making the swing to to the new thing. Obviously, that is that that choice alone is literally change your life.
00:21:17
toddpinkston
yeah
00:21:23
Steven J. Neuner
And because it probably prepared you for what the story I think you're going to tell next, which is the question from Bill.
00:21:31
toddpinkston
Yep, absolutely. and And I'll preface this by saying, before WayForward started, I loved what I got to do. I mean, when when when I tell that story in college of, you know,
00:21:45
toddpinkston
just having this passion for the high school kids down the road and the gospel. Well, when I graduated college, that's what I got to do full time. I was on Young Life staff in Dallas. I loved it.
00:21:54
Steven J. Neuner
So
00:21:55
toddpinkston
I mean, it just, you you you knew kind of what the end goal was. The end goal was was to build something where where there's relationships and kids are getting the opportunity to understand Jesus for the first time.
00:22:10
toddpinkston
And so I loved it. I wasn't looking for anything else. and we we had a Bible study that was meeting at the house from a group of guys at a CrossFit gym.
00:22:20
toddpinkston
And one of the guys was like, hey, you you know, you take these high school kids backpacking, why don't you ever take us? And I was like, let's go. This would be awesome. And I, you know, nuna as I took high school kids on on backpacking trips as I got older, I just couldn't help but think, man, why wouldn't this work for us?
00:22:37
toddpinkston
Like, why wouldn't this work for people our age in their 30s, 40s, 50s?
00:22:39
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:22:42
toddpinkston
You know, we're busy. Like, we got problems, man. Like, we need some time away. And And so when they asked to go on on a backpacking trip, I jumped at the opportunity because I just thought like, heck yeah, like it we we need this.
00:22:57
toddpinkston
And i don't mean you need this. or any It's like we, I need this.
00:23:01
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:23:01
toddpinkston
And so on that trip, but before we started, Bill Strahan, who the Lord will use in profound ways in my story, he asked a question that that rocked me. You know, he said, if money wasn't an issue and you could do anything to make a difference in the world, what would you do?
00:23:17
toddpinkston
And to me, noer I mean, i had I had dreamt about this idea of backpacking trips for adults. and So I answered him not even thinking twice like I would do this and we hadn't gone on the trail yet So he looked back at me like what is this and he kind of had these like, you know eyes like the guy this guy's an idiot and he moved on to the next person and Bill and I were on trail a couple weeks ago and gosh We laugh at that story all the time for for what has for what has transpired in the last 12 years but
00:23:48
toddpinkston
The long story is that him and his wife had sold a company. They wanted to take a portion of the money that they earned, and they wanted to start a nonprofit. They're they're entrepreneurs. they don't They didn't want to give it to something that was existing. They wanted to help start something from the ground up. And what Bill says is I wanted to start something that would outlive me and change the world.
00:24:09
toddpinkston
And when they heard that answer, and then Bill experienced the trip, he knew, like, This is what I want to do. And there was a moment on the trip and, you know, it's the moment that starts our book. And nooner there there are times, you know we talk about unstuck and alive and we can pursue it all we want.
00:24:31
toddpinkston
But the reality is we don't create transformation in our life. we create moments in which transformation can take place. and God is the one that changes us. God is the one that but helps those things become unstuck.
00:24:45
toddpinkston
and Bill experienced one of those on the trip, and it was in the moment that everybody would look at and say, it's all gone wrong. Like, everything has gone wrong. Snowstorm, it was hail, wearing shorts and t-shirt under a tarp.
00:24:58
toddpinkston
One guy's asking about hypothermia. I mean, if you're guiding the trip, you're thinking, well, I'm not getting a tip this week. Like, it is it is when everything has gone wrong. And in that moment, Bill, who had been successful and striving and, you know, just a problem solver, it was in that moment that he felt like God's nearness was was more present than ever.
00:25:21
toddpinkston
And God just came to him and said, Bill, you don't have to fix this. All you have to do is sit here and be cold. And that idea of being present in the moment. was just something that was so foreign to him because it's not the way he lived life.
00:25:35
toddpinkston
He lived life 10 steps ahead. He lived life problem you know solving the problems in his mind.
00:25:38
Steven J. Neuner
Right.
00:25:40
toddpinkston
And when he just got to sit there, it's like, oh my gosh, this is what peace is. This is what it means to be present. And if it takes going on backpacking trips for other people to achieve this, I want to be a part of that.
00:25:53
toddpinkston
And so, uh, that was, you know, that was the moment that Bill, the light bulb went off for him. And he was like, this is profound for me. And I want to be a part of, of helping other people do this.
00:26:04
toddpinkston
Uh, and so him and his, him and his wife, Becky invited us over for dinner, told us that night at dinner, you know, uh, we know you love your job, but if there's any way you want to, you know, start this, we'd love to, we'd love to do it with you.
00:26:18
toddpinkston
And, you know, Nooner, I say Tom Young played a profound role in my life answering the question, am I worth pursuing?
00:26:28
toddpinkston
Bill Strahan has played a profound role in my life helping answer the question, do I have what it takes?
00:26:34
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:26:35
toddpinkston
Because if you would have asked me before that meeting with Bill and Becky, why don't you start this backpacking deal? I would have said, well, it'll never make money. You know, it's a seasonal deal. It's a, you know, it's nonprofit. We want to do it for impact, not for, you know, not for financial gain.
00:26:51
toddpinkston
And so just the numbers weren't going to make sense. And when Bill and Becky took that off the table, I realized the real reason why I wouldn't want to step into that. And that's because I fear fear failure.
00:27:07
toddpinkston
You know, to me, this idea of what if you go after something and it fails, It fails, but what does that say about you? Does that mean I'm a failure?
00:27:17
toddpinkston
And so, you know, if that's the idea, even though I'd taken risks in my life, they were all managed. They were all, you know, the the calculated risk was, yes, this looks like a risk.
00:27:30
toddpinkston
I'm typically, you know, a risky guy, but I'm going to go after something in which the I feel like the odds are in my favor and I can work hard enough to figure it all out.
00:27:40
Steven J. Neuner
Mm-hmm.
00:27:41
toddpinkston
And this was the first thing in life that was like, let's be honest, the odds weren't in my favor. Like, who's going take a week off work, pay $1,000 to sleep on the ground?
00:27:53
toddpinkston
Like, this is dumb. You know, the the people we're going after, we're not going after, you know, folks that are backpacking enthusiasts or just love to camp. Like, we're going after everyday guys and girls.
00:28:06
toddpinkston
30 to 50 years old, successful, driven, you know, time is is of the essence in their life. they're they're They're busy, they're occupied, and we're asking them to make a massive sacrifice to step away from all that.
00:28:21
toddpinkston
And so to me, i mean, I wrestled with it for weeks, even if they had, you know, given the opportunity to provide some money to to to start the organization.
00:28:31
Steven J. Neuner
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:28:31
toddpinkston
Gosh, you know, stepping away from everything, you know, into something as risky as this, man, it required a lot of faith and trust. And to me, that's what it came down to is, do you believe that God's inviting you into this?
00:28:46
toddpinkston
And finally, you know, it was my sweet bride that we we're painting our daughter's bedroom one night. And because we had we had our first kiddo on the way. And she said, it you know, hey, if we go after this and it fails, will you regret trying?
00:29:01
toddpinkston
and And again, it's like, you're you know, you're just answering the question. And i and I'm, you know, painting the wall.
00:29:03
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:29:05
toddpinkston
And I said, no, I don't think I'd regret it. And she said, great, let's go for it.
00:29:09
Steven J. Neuner
Wow.
00:29:10
toddpinkston
And to me, in that moment, it's like, okay, like, we're in.
00:29:10
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah. Up, up, up.
00:29:14
toddpinkston
If she's in, I'm in.
00:29:15
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:29:17
toddpinkston
And the contribution that Bill and Becky made to WayForward, the financial contribution is the smallest contribution.
00:29:17
Steven J. Neuner
that part
00:29:26
toddpinkston
Part of their contribution like who they are and the ways that they have partnered with us and helped grow me as a leader I mean bill has been by my side
00:29:27
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:29:37
toddpinkston
as my number one fan this whole time. And when I doubt myself, he comes in and helps me see something different. He's helped me, you know, to to believe you have what it takes. And it's not you have what it takes.
00:29:50
toddpinkston
If God invites you into something, then he has what it takes. And you got to walk in that in obedience. And so, man, it was a you know question that changed my life. The last 12 years have been an incredible roller coaster, but we've been able to see God do some amazing things through the organization. And it's been awesome.
00:30:09
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:30:14
toddpinkston
Hmm.
00:30:14
Steven J. Neuner
One, first, like when you when you were to reflect back, right do you feel like this second question always existed or only existed because the first one, where were they always in tandem you couldn't see it?
00:30:30
Steven J. Neuner
Or... Like did the the removing the first one with the, with, with the answer, right. that Did it like, is is it a new one that should popped up?
00:30:37
toddpinkston
It's
00:30:42
toddpinkston
a great question. I don't even know that I've ever thought about it in that way. My hunch says my hunt says they owe they existed together.
00:30:53
toddpinkston
One of them was louder at first.
00:30:53
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:30:57
Steven J. Neuner
huh.
00:30:57
toddpinkston
And when that one started to be answered, the other one came up. So i don't think i don't think I don't think the second question, do I have what it takes, was absent.
00:31:01
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:31:09
toddpinkston
I just think it was maybe a little more dormant while the first one was louder.
00:31:11
Steven J. Neuner
yeah Got it. Uh, second question. I'm curious, like, so you have these relationships, relationships have played through as we've heard this story, right?
00:31:22
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:31:35
Steven J. Neuner
Aaron here, like if you were to think about it,
00:31:37
toddpinkston
Hmm.
00:31:40
Steven J. Neuner
like if you were to measure backwards, like over your life, do you feel like more of the risks you were taking were out of, out of, out of courage and you were going after something or more like, because something else happened to you?
00:31:57
toddpinkston
Hmm.
00:32:02
toddpinkston
I don't know if this is a, you you can ask the question again if I don't answer it.
00:32:07
Steven J. Neuner
No, it's okay.
00:32:09
toddpinkston
Early on, i was taking, like before I met the Lord, i was taking risks because i was hoping to find the answers to those questions of if I will step out there,
00:32:10
Steven J. Neuner
Mm-hmm.
00:32:15
Steven J. Neuner
Uh-huh.
00:32:22
Steven J. Neuner
Got it.
00:32:26
toddpinkston
and and do something that that feels risky, draws attention, and it's successful, then those relationships might come.
00:32:30
Steven J. Neuner
Mm-hmm.
00:32:33
Steven J. Neuner
Mm-hmm.
00:32:36
toddpinkston
I mean, one, I'll answer the question, do I have what it takes? it's like, yeah, look, I did it.
00:32:41
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:32:42
toddpinkston
But two, if if other people didn't start noticing you, then it's like, okay, I'm worth pursuing. But just like I talked about, you know, the but stuff, you know, with playing football on Friday night, it's like it fills the bucket for a little bit.
00:32:56
toddpinkston
And then you look down and it's empty again. And you have to keep like manifesting that. You have to keep doing it again.
00:33:02
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:33:03
toddpinkston
And the more risk you take, the more things you go for, well, the the more potential there is for failure. And so then if you hide the failure, it becomes this managed perception.
00:33:15
toddpinkston
And, you know, that's a, so I'll get to that in a sec. The, I think the answer to the, the way I would answer the question is, Earlier I felt like I had to take risks to prove something Now it's like I feel like I'm taking risks with with house money because God's inviting you into it and you know, it's the idea of like it's unforced it is I'm reading a book right now, you know talking about like the the Lord's blessing the Lord's anointing like Noonar if God is for us who can be against us and
00:33:30
Steven J. Neuner
Okay.
00:33:37
Steven J. Neuner
Love it.
00:33:47
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:33:52
toddpinkston
You know, i I don't always live in this because I certainly still, you know, wrestle with the false self. But as I think about things, the idea of like, if you feel like you're invited into something and it's of the Lord, what do you have to lose?
00:34:07
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:34:08
toddpinkston
And if you feel like you're invited into something and maybe maybe, you know, it wasn't the Lord. You just ate something that, you know, gave you an upset stomach and you thought that you were supposed to go that way and you weren't and it fails.
00:34:20
toddpinkston
Who cares? Like,
00:34:21
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:23
toddpinkston
there's not, you know, your identity's not at stake. And so, to me, it's just this idea of like, let's go for it.
00:34:30
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:34:31
toddpinkston
I mean, just go for it. And, you know, back up like this idea of identity, uh, has been really, yeah, just, just a huge theme throughout my life as it is for, for so many people. And, you know, to me, the idea, i felt like when I first started walking with the Lord that I had to have everything together.
00:34:55
toddpinkston
And it was like, okay, I'm safe. Like, I've got to have it all figured out. And you quickly realize, I still have struggles.
00:35:00
Steven J. Neuner
We got to have all those rules, right? Top all those rules.
00:35:03
toddpinkston
Man, know.
00:35:04
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:35:05
toddpinkston
Even though God said, I don't care about rules, it's still something that I struggle with.
00:35:08
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:35:10
toddpinkston
and so, and then when you're in ministry, you're really supposed to have it all together. I mean, my word, like when when Aaron and I moved to Dallas, She was working for a ministry. I was working for a ministry. I was going to seminary.
00:35:24
toddpinkston
we and and you know We were having high school kids over to our house. It was like we were you know we were supposed to have things things figured out.
00:35:33
Steven J. Neuner
Right.
00:35:33
toddpinkston
And the reality was our first year of marriage was hard. And we didn't have it figured out. and you know, you you don't feel like you can be honest about that stuff. Whether it's your struggles or, you know, things like that, it just doesn't seem, and, in you know, for for me, i had I had a struggle with pornography, you know, nuoner that was something that even now admitting is like, gosh, you know, it it stinks. And even thinking about, you know, who's going to listen to the podcast, I'm you know, but the reality is like that is one of the deals that keeps so many men stuck in shame and and it's this hidden sin. And for me, it robbed me of, you know, five solid years of marriage. and
00:36:11
toddpinkston
finally, like, I just couldn't, I couldn't do it anymore. And, uh, when I sat down, you know, Aaron and told her hardest conversation I've ever had, but it's like, oh, this is what it looks like to live a life of vulnerability. Like, this is what it looks like to be forgiven.
00:36:27
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:36:28
toddpinkston
And, you know, we're going to wrestle with that stuff throughout our lives. But that was the beginning of this is a foundation based on reality, not based on a perception, not based on a facade.
00:36:41
toddpinkston
And man, like things shifted for us and and and praise God for that. And we've had some other moments where things have shifted. and probably the biggest one, you know, in 2020, a hard year for everybody, of course, difficult year for, you know, for WayForward. And as a leader, I just felt tapped.
00:36:59
toddpinkston
And, Nooner, I went out in 2020 to go see a guy what I, what I thought was to talk about, you know, some leadership and some personal growth.
00:37:07
Steven J. Neuner
I'm
00:37:07
toddpinkston
And, uh, and, and, and what I realized was, no, we're going to, we're going to uncover it all. And, this guy named Jack, I, man, I spent time weeping on his floor. I spent time, you know, talking about things that I didn't even know were driving me.
00:37:23
toddpinkston
And holy cow, like, I felt like he revealed, you know, took off some blinders on on my life and my leadership that, you know, again, it's like you you try the best you can, but, man, he helped me see even areas I was still striving.
00:37:38
toddpinkston
I was still trying to prove. I was still over-functioning. man, not going That shifted things in marriage and in in in in way forward and in leadership on a level that I had never experienced before.
00:37:50
toddpinkston
And again, it's like you talk about things getting unstuck. Like, dude, I look at Todd of 2019 and he was doing great. Like he was he was pursuing the Lord and he was, you know, he was trying to find life.
00:38:02
toddpinkston
But man, what became unstuck in that moment?
00:38:04
Steven J. Neuner
No,
00:38:05
toddpinkston
It's like, oh, I never want to go back. and And the way I see it and the way that, you know, you still try to fill your bucket with things of this world. And it's like it is only the Lord that can they can fill us and satisfy us and in the place we can find life.
00:38:19
toddpinkston
And so, you know, hope that answers kind of the question on on taking risks and then also, you know, jumping in a little bit on kind of my identity story.
00:38:23
Steven J. Neuner
know it is
00:38:27
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah, and and I think it's just I appreciate you sharing and your generosity with it. And I just the you know thing that I've noticed working with high functioning people, how you know, really, really high caliber entrepreneurs is oftentimes when they self assess, there's generally a pattern where they either their biggest growth or transformational stories, whether it's faith or in their business or in their marriage or whatever, is a they're usually usually after really hard moments and they have this massive growth.
00:38:56
Steven J. Neuner
or they generally are always like pushing for it.
00:38:57
toddpinkston
Yep.
00:38:59
Steven J. Neuner
And so I'm just always curious because I think that oftentimes what what what happens is that has a lot to do with identity and also our view of God, right?
00:39:01
toddpinkston
Yep.
00:39:10
Steven J. Neuner
And so anyway, I just, I love i love that you shared that and i and where that went.
00:39:10
toddpinkston
Yep. yeah
00:39:14
Steven J. Neuner
So thank you for that.
00:39:16
toddpinkston
You bet.
00:39:17
Steven J. Neuner
So like, let's talk about, you know, way forward a little bit more, right? let let's Let's paint a picture for those that don't know. I know a lot of people be listening, you're to know way forward and they've had transformational impact on it. But for those that that don't, help unpack it a little bit, like create a better image for for our listeners.
00:39:44
toddpinkston
Yeah. Yeah. so So I'll use what you just said where, you know, you you interact with a lot of high capacity leaders and you find their biggest moments of growth come from either hardships that come their way or they're ones that pursue those moments.
00:40:11
toddpinkston
And, know, Hardships that come our way, that's just that's life. you can't You can't avoid it. You hope you deal with them well, but they come. They come when they that you know when their time is right. The other is that's what Way Forward is for.
00:40:25
toddpinkston
Way Forward is an opportunity for somebody to step away from their normal life and enter into a space in which distractions are removed so they can go deeper in their relationships with each other and with the Lord.
00:40:40
toddpinkston
And so what we found in that is that you know, when you create these conditions, what essentially happens is that you catalyze transformational moments.
00:40:52
toddpinkston
And that's what WayForward is all about. We don't do the transforming. God does that. What we do is we create opportunities and spaces in which that stuff can take place, take place more rapidly.
00:41:05
toddpinkston
You know, think of like what happens in a greenhouse. The conditions are set in which things can grow at a more rapid pace. And so When somebody comes on a way forward trip, yes, we go backpacking, but we are not about backpacking.
00:41:19
toddpinkston
you know We are about getting people into into spaces where the distractions are so far away. So literally, you're you know you're five miles away from civilization. You're in the backcountry.
00:41:29
toddpinkston
You're sleeping on the ground. But in those moments, people talk about things that they have never talked about. like Nooner, I am blown away at the number of people that that are sharing their life story. And they'll say, man, I'm going to tell you guys something. I've never told anybody this in my life.
00:41:47
toddpinkston
And dude, I just, gosh, it makes me tear up every time I talk about it. Because I think to myself, here is this 45-year-old man. that has stayed locked in a prison of believing the lie, if people knew this about me, they would no longer love me.
00:42:06
toddpinkston
And I just think, like, you know, it doesn't matter, like, how gifted you are, doesn't matter how much money you make, if you believe that if somebody knew, and fill in the blank,
00:42:17
toddpinkston
Whatever it is, if somebody knew that about you, that they no longer love you. And for that moment, for somebody to be able to share that, and you don't even have to do anything. You're not solving their problem.
00:42:28
toddpinkston
What happens in that moment is profound because they look around the room. Sorry, around the circle because you're not in a room. You're in the back country.
00:42:35
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:42:35
toddpinkston
But what they see is that their friends are not running off. Their friends are still there. And, you know, whatever you want to, you know, whatever list you want to make of stuff,
00:42:47
toddpinkston
I've heard it all. I've heard everything you can possibly you know comprehend confessed on the mountain, and people don't go anywhere. They stay right there. And it is just an incredible moment.
00:42:58
toddpinkston
So this idea of being fully known That's what takes place on the mountain is people get the opportunity to fully know each other. And so, you know, a few days into the trip, no no longer matters what you make and no longer matters what your title is.
00:43:12
toddpinkston
You know, sometimes people bring Sonicare toothbrushes on trail, but for the most part, Nooner, the, you know, the the amenities are pretty minor, you know.
00:43:15
Steven J. Neuner
Did you?
00:43:22
toddpinkston
You're sleeping on the ground. You're sleeping in a tent. Like, it is the great equalizer. And so you're just people. And people get to relate to each other. They get to laugh. You know, you laugh like you haven't laughed in a long time. It, like, brings out the inner kid.
00:43:36
toddpinkston
But also, man, they get the opportunity to wrestle with the Lord on some of those things that they have not created the space for. And so... I would say a couple profound things happen.
00:43:45
toddpinkston
Like, one, we get the opportunity to be known on a really deep level.
00:43:46
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:43:49
toddpinkston
And two, we get the opportunity to wrestle with, you know, identity questions. I mean, people have been asking the Lord, you know, or of whatever they would define as God. They have been asking God, why am I here since the beginning of time?
00:44:04
toddpinkston
And we live in a world where the the moments to wrestle with that question are few and far between. You know, we don't even stop at a stoplight without pulling out our phone. You know, we don't have five minutes throughout our day without something buzzing in our pocket and distracting us.
00:44:19
toddpinkston
And so on a way forward trip, all that stuff is removed. You don't have your cell phone. You don't have a watch. You know, we don't tell people where they're going. We don't tell them what time it is, what they're eating for dinner. And it's not that this isn't some sort of, you know, game we play on people.
00:44:34
toddpinkston
We do that because it's a gift. Like folks wrestle with that a lot on day one. And come day four or day five, they don't want it back. They don't want to know what time it is. They don't want their phone back.
00:44:46
toddpinkston
And so it's a gift we give. And and for the you know the four or five days they're on trail, they don't have to make any decisions. They don't have to be in control. And it's a sweet opportunity.
00:44:56
Steven J. Neuner
What about credentials? Do you guys tell people about your credentials?
00:45:02
toddpinkston
You know, if they knew my credentials, Stephen, I'm not sure they would want to follow me. a Brudder that's so I'll give a little context, you know Steven brings a trip this last year and a guy at the the arrival dinner table ask the question What are your credentials and you know like a good question dodger?
00:45:24
toddpinkston
dodged the question and Larry brought it back up and You know everybody wanted to know and the reality is you know men are just like life You want to find people that have been there and done it you want to find people that have
00:45:31
Steven J. Neuner
Yep.
00:45:37
Steven J. Neuner
yep
00:45:38
toddpinkston
you know, been on the trail for many times. And it's not about the credentials. I mean, man, there's lots of people with PhDs that you would follow. There's lots of medical doctors that you don't want to take their advice.
00:45:51
toddpinkston
It's the ones that have been there and done it that you want to, you know, you want to get with them and and you want to be, you want to be around them a lot. And so our hope, you know, the phenomenon of a way forward trip is that Most of the time when a group goes on trail, they're in their 40s or 50s.
00:46:07
toddpinkston
Their guides are going to be in their early 20s. And so the question that Bill asked me early on was, how are we going to get this to work when our guides are half the age of our clients? And what we found in that process is it's not about how many, how many years you have.
00:46:22
toddpinkston
It's about your willingness to go there. And so we tell our guides, we can't invite people to go to places we're unwilling to go ourselves. And so and in a lot of ways, that means going into the the dark places of your story, going below the line and talking about the things that but people don't normally talk about.
00:46:37
toddpinkston
And if you're willing to lead in vulnerability, it becomes contagious and it creates a momentum on the trip that other people are willing to go there as well. And so we see it, you know, and and and nooner.
00:46:47
toddpinkston
I don't know that there's a magic formula for it But what I can tell you is it works. It works with men in their 60s It works with women that are stay-at-home moms. It works with you know business leaders It works with college students. It worked on family trips.
00:47:01
toddpinkston
It works on parent-child trips i mean I can still say the best four days I've ever had with my daughter We're on a we're on a backpacking trip on a way forward trip together And I just, I cherish those moments. And so it's a sweet time. And it, you know, it's not about the backpacking. It's about somebody looking and saying, yes, like I want that. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get there.
00:47:22
toddpinkston
And so what happens on trail or things that have been stuck for far too long break free and life flows again.
00:47:29
Steven J. Neuner
I love it. I love it. And I mean, obviously, we're here together as as a byproduct of of of a trip.
00:47:35
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:47:36
Steven J. Neuner
But also, since the theme is really strong in this in this episode is relationships.
00:47:36
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:47:42
Steven J. Neuner
So we were introduced by a mutual friend who would would be impossible for not to mention him, the Terry Fingham.
00:47:43
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:47:48
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:47:49
Steven J. Neuner
the humblest man ever. we what I consider one of my best friends for years and I kept calling him Tom and he never corrected me.
00:47:54
toddpinkston
Yes. Yes.
00:47:57
Steven J. Neuner
So, I mean, just ultimate humility.
00:47:59
Steven J. Neuner
Let me be a jackass. But anyway, I mean, but so we are introduced by Terry.
00:48:03
toddpinkston
and No, that's just because you're a good Asian. Yeah.
00:48:12
Steven J. Neuner
That's funny. But I mean, seriously though, we got introduced by Terry.
00:48:16
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:48:17
Steven J. Neuner
I mean, i want I want you to just tell me a little bit about Terry and his impact on you, but then more like also, you know, we really met through a mutual friend and yet we're here together co-authoring a book, doing a podcast.
00:48:27
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:48:30
toddpinkston
yeah
00:48:34
Steven J. Neuner
go So like, I just curious, like one, let's shout out Terry and honor him, but also but why do you think God has brought us together at this time?
00:48:46
toddpinkston
that That question right there could be a whole episode. i
00:48:48
Steven J. Neuner
Hmm.
00:48:49
toddpinkston
Terry Pham gosh, look around and I'm like, there would not be a way forward without, and you fill in the blank on this on this small list of people, and Terry Pham is one of them. i Terry did not go on that on that first trip.
00:49:08
toddpinkston
It would actually be two years before Terry would ever go on trails. i I knew of Terry through the CrossFit gym that that John Marshall Started in Richardson and I knew that Terry Had a warehouse and I knew that Terry had been on the cover of entrepreneur magazine And so that's about all I knew of Terry and so I called him up I invited him out to coffee and i told him I said hey, I'm i'm starting an organization and i think most nonprofits are garbage and
00:49:38
toddpinkston
I think they operate terribly. I think that you know they're they're a disgrace to excellence. And I want to run an organization that is really good, that you know that could be run like a for-profit and that would you know that that could be worthy of being on the cover of Entrepreneur Magazine one day.
00:49:55
toddpinkston
Will you help me with that? And course he said yes. And I said, oh, by the way, we're also a struggling nonprofit without much money.
00:50:03
Steven J. Neuner
But...
00:50:04
toddpinkston
You know, if anybody with some office space, and I was thinking, man, could I just office in your warehouse? And I'm happy to pay rent, and you know I'll just be in the corner. And he invites me over to his office, shows me the you know the the the office next to his, hands me the keys and says, hey, let's do this thing.
00:50:22
toddpinkston
And I said, great, how much? And he said, man, it's on me. And that has been, that's Terry. Like he just invites me in. and And he believes in me. And Terry, provided some help for me business-wise that I would have never, you know, been able to navigate through, like paying payroll tax and just the stuff that, you know, you don't learn about in seminary for sure. he was He was an incredible help in that way.
00:50:51
toddpinkston
But I think the biggest thing, you know, we started, we were in the Bible study together on Tuesday mornings. And then Tuesday afternoon, we would sit down and we would talk business and we would talk the Lord.
00:51:01
toddpinkston
And we would crush, you know, a 12-pack of seltzers during a meeting. And it started out as one hour, eventually went to two hours, three hours. And then all of a sudden, it was just an all-afternoon meeting where we would talk about the business issues we had.
00:51:12
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:51:16
toddpinkston
But then we'd also talk about the Bible. And I think... While we were solving problems, one thing I was learning is here's a guy that has an incredibly successful you know bubble tea business. like If you want the greatest bubble tea that Dallas or probably the U.S.
00:51:32
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:51:33
toddpinkston
has to offer, you know Fat Straws. It's it's it's amazing.
00:51:36
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
00:51:37
toddpinkston
He runs a good company. He's on the cover of Entrepreneur Magazine. he's you know he's weathered At that time, he weathered the 08 crisis. you know Then he'll future down the road weather COVID. But what I learned is like, even though this man has a ton of business stuff figured out, he doesn't have, he doesn't have everything in life figured out.
00:51:54
toddpinkston
He had questions about the Bible. yeah He had, he had hurts that he wanted to talk through. it And so there became this mutual relationship where I was, I was helping him uncover some things beneath the surface that he had never wrestled with.
00:52:08
toddpinkston
He was helping me with, you know, running a business that honestly, I felt like I was way outside of my league and, and It was just this like this mutual friendship in which I have the utmost respect for him. I mean, I think the world of Terry.
00:52:24
toddpinkston
And sometimes when he talks about me, I'm like, are you talking about the same person? I mean, the wave the way that God used, and i know I say this incredibly humbly, not pridefully, but the way God used me in his life It's just like you look back and you see the timing and it's like it's only the Lord that I was selfishly asking for something and God wanted to use me in that moment
00:52:43
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
00:52:49
toddpinkston
And man, the Lord used Terry and in my life and in WayForward beyond what I could have ever imagined. You know, he ends up being chairman of the board for, you know, several years. mean, his fingerprints are all over the organization.
00:52:59
toddpinkston
And I just, literally, there would not be a WayForward. One, because we'd be in in jail for not paying payroll tax, but also just the the problems he's helped solve, the the way he's empowered.
00:53:11
toddpinkston
And so, yeah, Noonar, you fast forward and I see some of that same stuff happening with with you and I where Mean you were a name that I thought was maybe just a mythical creation, you know creature at some point in time It's like is this nooner guy just really like what Terry calls chat GPT?
00:53:31
toddpinkston
Like he he talks about you he has the utmost respect for you as a man as a leader as a husband as a follower of the Lord And all of a sudden, you know, our so our paths start to cross.
00:53:43
toddpinkston
And, you know, you come on trail last year. It worked out for me to get to guide your trip. Man, what a blessing that was. And getting to watch you, and I told you on trail, like the way that you were intentional with those guys, you know, we would break and you'd be one-on-one in the conversation. And just yeah your intentionality to, to you know, to invite guys, you know, you you're – You professionally coach people. you know you're You are doing ministry under the banner of you know of of of running and a you know business, being an entrepreneur, coaching other entrepreneurs, and you're bringing them into this space and you're intentional with them to talk about you know where life is found.
00:54:24
toddpinkston
And i just it's like, man, where that guy's going, I want to be a part of it. And so when you called in the fall you know with the invitation to be a part of a passion project, you know something you had dreamt about forever,
00:54:36
toddpinkston
Dude, I prayed about it, but the answer was obvious. Like, let's go. i mean, I'm in. And so I think that the Lord is, yeah, is continuing to refine. I've told you numerous times.
00:54:48
toddpinkston
I have not felt the imposter syndrome rear its ugly head like I have this last year since, you know, since way forward started. And so in 2013 and 14, when Bill and Becky said, Hey, let's do this together, man, you it's like, yeah, let's go for it.
00:55:02
toddpinkston
And then you doubt yourself along the way.
00:55:03
Steven J. Neuner
Bye.
00:55:04
toddpinkston
And for you to say, Hey, let's write a book on purpose together. It's like, yeah, let's do it. I'm in And then you start just doubting yourself of like, gosh, who's going to read it? What do I have to say? Who am I?
00:55:14
toddpinkston
you know, the Lord has used you. And I've told you, you know, time and time again, i think there's there's another phase of of life that he is using you to usher me into. And man, I pray that, you know, he's using me and in your life in ways that we'll look back and say that the timing was perfect.
00:55:31
Steven J. Neuner
yeah Yeah, well, he is, he is. And, you know, but I'm just really grateful and I want to keep this focused on you. My,
00:55:40
Steven J. Neuner
I just do want to like seize the moment here though, just to say like, Man, Terry Pham, I love him like a brother. When I joined an Entrepreneurs Organization, i wasn't quite sure that I was going to fit in, where it was going to work for me, whatever.
00:55:50
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:55:56
Steven J. Neuner
And the first meeting I go to, you I get this big smiley guy looking at me across the room. I was like, he's either hitting on me or like he's a cool dude. And fortunately, it was the latter.
00:56:06
Steven J. Neuner
and became one of my friends and and just a brother.
00:56:07
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:56:10
Steven J. Neuner
but and And because he loved me, he kept inviting me on way forward.
00:56:10
toddpinkston
yeah
00:56:14
Steven J. Neuner
And he talked about way forward and he kept inviting me, inviting me, inviting me. And every year i had something because of other commitments of coaching or what I couldn't couldn't go. I wanted to, but I couldn't.
00:56:25
Steven J. Neuner
And so literally every single time I would watch him take a bunch of our other friends on trip and I would literally see lives transformed.
00:56:35
toddpinkston
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:35
Steven J. Neuner
Uh, and I mean, the fruit was obvious, man. And so, you know, I, I get finally to the point.
00:56:39
toddpinkston
Yeah.
00:56:41
Steven J. Neuner
I'm like, man, I'm, I'm, I'm going, uh, I'm going. And I tell, call Terry up said, Hey man, I'm in this year. can, I can, I can make it happen. And he's like, man, I can believe this. This is the first year. like i feel like I, I'm not going to go so Tyler. My son's graduating college high school, college, uh,
00:56:59
Steven J. Neuner
all the things. And I was like, well, all right, Lord, i felt like was supposed to go. So I guess I'm going. So anyway, I got to go and it's been so cool.
00:57:05
toddpinkston
Yes. Yeah.
00:57:08
Steven J. Neuner
Just the blessing for me and the time and everything. But then just also to see how God used way forward and is working and continues to work. We had we had a, you know,
00:57:20
Steven J. Neuner
at six month, you know, great gathering. And you got to be a part of that too just to see the what's happening and stirring in people's lives. And in in it's it's it's not always the easy thing that's being done.
00:57:32
Steven J. Neuner
It's like there's really, really hard things that are happening that are really beautiful and people are getting unstuck and alive. And so for me, this his journey
00:57:39
toddpinkston
yeah.
00:57:40
Steven J. Neuner
of this book that's been in my heart forever. i knew that like, that I just knew that this is something that we were meant to run together and on. And so grateful for you, grateful them for the wisdom.
00:57:53
Steven J. Neuner
Speaking of the book, I'm just curious, like if someone's stuck and they're listening to car like right now and the the book's not even out, it's still being written, but like,
00:57:54
toddpinkston
yeah
00:58:06
Steven J. Neuner
If you're hoping that someone takes something away from this, they never get to go on a way forward trail. What do you hope that they that they can receive?
00:58:18
toddpinkston
Man, that's a great, great question. Yeah, I don't think, I think way forward trips are great. I think they're fantastic. I think everybody should go. I think you can find life apart from them though.
00:58:30
toddpinkston
Like it is not, that it is a it is a condensed version where a lot of things can happen at once on a great adventure. Right now in Southern Colorado, hopefully it'll be around the country, maybe around the world one day.
00:58:45
toddpinkston
But I think if somebody were, you know, if they were listening to this and and they were thinking to themselves, man, I've been stuck for a long time. Like when I read the Bible, i believe, but I just don't experience the life and joy the way I see in those pages.
00:59:03
toddpinkston
I would say, hey, there's hope. Like there is nothing you have done that has disqualified you. And I think that's one of the first things is, you know we look for this grand plan, these, you know, five easy steps to find purpose.
00:59:20
toddpinkston
But I think what's where it starts is with identity. And it starts in identifying and getting out of some of the traps that have kept you stuck for far too long. And so that's why, you know, this idea the yeah the idea, and when we when we put the name on it, unstuck and alive, it takes both of them.
00:59:39
toddpinkston
It's like we cannot just muscle our way into life. It's not put more weight on the bar. It is stop, look around, and realize what are the lies, what are the traps that have kept me stuck for far too long.
00:59:54
toddpinkston
And Nooner, what is great is like when you finally see it, oh my gosh, I've been walking around like Eeyore for far too long. I've been thinking that purpose is a place or it's a plan. Like whatever but the the trap is you're in, when you finally identify it,
01:00:12
toddpinkston
Man, that's like, that's 90% of the battle. Like when you get out of a trap and look around, you start seeing purpose everywhere. You start seeing opportunities to use your gifts and flourish.
01:00:23
toddpinkston
Now, are there things that can, you know, that can hone that in? Absolutely. Is there a process to to making it a daily habit? Yes. But man, it's not rocket science.
01:00:34
toddpinkston
Like it is not, you know, think the greatest thing is like, you know, Stephen and I don't hold the keys. We're not the gurus to purpose. But we've also walked with a lot of people that have been stuck and we've helped synthesize a lot of great data.
01:00:42
Steven J. Neuner
nope
01:00:49
toddpinkston
And so this isn't our book, our names may on it, but it's man, it's, it's everybody's book whose stories are shared in it. And so, uh, I think I would just tell somebody like, Hey, don't stop. Like there is, there's hope.
01:01:00
toddpinkston
There's nothing you've done that's disqualified you. And I think that's the, that's probably one of the biggest things that keeps people stuck is feeling disqualified. It's like, man, I just, I've worked hard.
01:01:10
toddpinkston
I've, you know, I've, Haven't been able to find it so far. And it's like, man, don't stop. There's hope.
01:01:15
Steven J. Neuner
I love that. And if I can go one deeper, just because it's a a shot over the bow, because you've got it.
01:01:17
toddpinkston
Yeah.
01:01:20
Steven J. Neuner
But I i see this one a lot. And I just love for you to speak to it. How important is your degree, your seminary degree to your ministry and work, Todd?
01:01:32
Steven J. Neuner
Because I got a lot of friends that feel like that that they're not equipped and they're not qualified.
01:01:35
toddpinkston
Hmm.
01:01:41
toddpinkston
Uh, you know, nobody's asked for my seminary degree. Uh, it's never gotten me in the door in a conversation. If anything, it creates more barriers to entry than it does open doors.
01:01:53
toddpinkston
man, you know, nuner I look back at my time in seminary and I absolutely loved it because it was a condensed time in which I got to be in God's word.
01:01:57
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
01:02:01
toddpinkston
but no, there is, There is, if you look back, like God has used people with no college degrees. God has, you know, look at the look at the disciples early on.
01:02:12
toddpinkston
God wants our presence and God wants our obedience. In fact, man, as you look at the story of Jesus calling the earlier disciples, what does he tell them to leave behind? He tells them it to leave behind everything they know.
01:02:25
Steven J. Neuner
yeah
01:02:26
toddpinkston
He tells them to leave behind their profession. And so, dude, there's a reason that folks joke about seminary being called cemetery. It's like the place your faith goes to die.
01:02:36
Steven J. Neuner
but
01:02:37
toddpinkston
Man, dude, you can study it so much that it loses its its its passion. Like, no way, dude. Purpose is it is, it is so core to our walk with the Lord.
01:02:49
toddpinkston
It is not about how much we know. In fact, I think our 10-year plans are, and And everything we think we have figured out just gets in the way. It's about a relationship. It's about knowing where your identity comes from.
01:03:01
toddpinkston
It's about not falling into the pitfalls on a daily basis and believing the lies. And it's about being faithful and bringing your best self into each moment. And so great question.
01:03:11
Steven J. Neuner
I love it. Yeah. Thank you for that.
01:03:13
toddpinkston
Yeah.
01:03:13
Steven J. Neuner
Our pastor has a little joke throwaway line that I really love because it's just bang on. It's God hits straight licks with crooked sticks. and And I just think that that's that's that's a cool way.
01:03:23
toddpinkston
Yep.
01:03:26
Steven J. Neuner
So anyone who just feels like they're not equipped, i man.
01:03:27
toddpinkston
that
01:03:31
Steven J. Neuner
What a great word of affirmation from Todd there. Just to end, i mean, I don't, I want to end with just some fun if we can.
01:03:40
toddpinkston
Absolutely.
01:03:41
Steven J. Neuner
But just a quick lightning round. Okay.
01:03:45
toddpinkston
Come on.
01:03:46
Steven J. Neuner
but So what is your superpower?
01:03:51
toddpinkston
Oh, should have knew you were ask
01:03:58
toddpinkston
You know, I think I think my kids would say I can bring laughter into any situation It's oftentimes not viewed as a superpower, but man humor it's like whether you're in an intense medical situation or you know the family's frustrated about something gosh when we laugh
01:04:02
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
01:04:16
toddpinkston
like just a good, just a good laugh, not sarcasm, but like just a good hearty laugh. It can be disarming. And so I would say that's one of them. I would say another one is, man, no, no, I see things in people that they don't see in themselves.
01:04:29
toddpinkston
I'm a big believer in people. I'm hard on them at times because I, I want them to grow.
01:04:34
Steven J. Neuner
I
01:04:36
toddpinkston
And i think looking back, sometimes you need somebody to say the hard truth, but I would say, I see things in people that they don't see in themselves.
01:04:43
Steven J. Neuner
love it. I thought you were going to go with cornhole, but, you know.
01:04:46
toddpinkston
Oh, yeah.
01:04:47
Steven J. Neuner
what True story, guys.
01:04:51
toddpinkston
Oh.
01:04:51
Steven J. Neuner
Literally off the you off the trail.
01:04:52
toddpinkston
Oh.
01:04:54
Steven J. Neuner
We're back at way forward base camp. I'm praising God for the warmest of a normal bed.
01:04:57
toddpinkston
Oh. oh
01:04:59
Steven J. Neuner
I'm sleeping on the ground. And then late at night, I hear, zoom, zoom.
01:05:04
toddpinkston
thank
01:05:04
Steven J. Neuner
yeah the like just over and over and over again. And Todd and one of the friends the trip, a guy named Sean, they, they literally, i don't think missed a single hole in cornhole for hours.
01:05:09
toddpinkston
oh
01:05:18
toddpinkston
it
01:05:19
Steven J. Neuner
I mean, I don't even know if that had an ending to the game, but I eventually passed out thankfully, but best cornholers I've ever met.
01:05:28
toddpinkston
Oh, it's a fun game.
01:05:29
Steven J. Neuner
like Second question.
01:05:30
toddpinkston
I love playing it
01:05:32
Steven J. Neuner
Well, I'll wait to see you on ESPN one day. What will the Olympics when they make it a sport?
01:05:35
toddpinkston
it. Yeah. Come on.
01:05:38
Steven J. Neuner
Best advice you ever received?
01:05:39
toddpinkston
Mmm.
01:05:46
toddpinkston
o
01:05:55
toddpinkston
Yeah, i think I think go for it. like don't Don't live life with any regrets. You will You'll
01:06:04
toddpinkston
yeah you'll you'll you'll you'll regret not going for it more than you would regret going for it and failing.
01:06:10
Steven J. Neuner
Love it. A moment you almost bailed on this project. What's a moment?
01:06:19
toddpinkston
oh
01:06:24
toddpinkston
I don't know that I almost bailed, but after we talked in the fall, I had the thought of, man, I hope he forgets that conversation and just doesn't call back.
01:06:36
Steven J. Neuner
That's so good. All right. Next one.
01:06:38
toddpinkston
no
01:06:39
Steven J. Neuner
Two more. What's something you do every week that helps you stay unstuck?
01:06:46
toddpinkston
I'm a big journaler. so there's, yeah, there's, I mean, there's a handful of rhythms. I journal a lot like I just I just free flow my thoughts people ask, you know What do you journal about?
01:06:59
toddpinkston
i'm like whatever comes to my mind and I'm not so much not so much like a You know, will I write like chapters to the book in a journal? Sure, man, I just write stuff down like I just sit there and write it down And so that helps me stay unstuck because it it gets it out of my mind it at least if I need to tell somebody I will but even writing it down
01:07:16
Steven J. Neuner
Thank you.
01:07:20
toddpinkston
gets me in a place where, you know, at least somebody else knows it. Like, God knows it. That that sheet of paper knows it. And so it just helps it helps things stay out from, you know, creating a silo around me.
01:07:33
toddpinkston
And then... Another rhythm, you you asked weekly, but I try to get away monthly. So I try to take a day a month where I just get get get away. And I turn my phone off.
01:07:44
toddpinkston
I don't have a long agenda. I will typically drive into the woods. If it's cold outside, I'll make a fire. And i do it on a work day. So, you know, to me, it's like... God is bringing as much to my mind work-related as he is personally, and even personally translates over to how I work. And so, you know, a lot of people are like, how do you justify that time? It's like, man, it's work time.
01:08:06
toddpinkston
And so that's how I justify it. The kids are in school, Aaron's doing something else, you know, and so I go and I get away. And it is, it blows my mind how much, you know, how productive that time is, whether it's just productive in the sense of,
01:08:19
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
01:08:22
toddpinkston
I feel better. Like I feel more free. I feel more unstuck or it's actually productive. Like God is bringing ideas. Like I'm not there to work, but sometimes he just brings ideas of like, this is how you need to train people. This is, you know, this is what the curriculum needs to look like.
01:08:38
toddpinkston
And so I think that rhythm has been really helpful. And so I do a a day a month and then I try to do a long period of time every year, like three or four days in January for kind of some annual planning.
01:08:49
Steven J. Neuner
Love it, love it, love it, love it. Final one, what makes you feel most alive right now?
01:08:57
toddpinkston
Oh, man. not having my cell phone on me. And that that takes some context. You know, we just got done with the summer. And during the summer, your phone is on you all the time. Like, because, you know, you're you're also, you're, you know, you're on call. And so your phone's on loud next to your bed every night. Your phone is on you at all times throughout the day.
01:09:20
toddpinkston
And you're just in Seasonal business. It's like, you know, it's like six months worth of work piled into three and so you're just you're working non-stop and so when the summer ends and I told you this before we started recording I turn my phone off, you know, and I you know, just get time with the family we get away we go to you know, we go to a cabin and Just to be like if I'm tired asleep if I you know if I want to play I play I want to read I read like it just is so fun and life-giving to not have that darn thing Dictating every moment of your day and so to me that's where I'm finding joy and then I always find joy in my kids like
01:09:57
Steven J. Neuner
but
01:10:00
toddpinkston
Nooner, it is every season is the best season, and the next one is even better than this. Like, I love watching my kids grow up.
01:10:06
Steven J. Neuner
Yeah.
01:10:08
toddpinkston
I love their curiosity. They're all different. And, you know, when I can just slow down and see see God in them, I just learn so much about his creativity. And so I find a lot of joy in life and watch my kids grow up.
01:10:23
Steven J. Neuner
Love it, man. Where can people learn more?
01:10:24
toddpinkston
Yeah, dude.
01:10:27
toddpinkston
Absolutely. Yeah, you can you can learn more about WayForward at wayforwardadventures.com. And then, and you know, personally, you can follow Instagram, social media, you know, LinkedIn, Facebook. I try to post on some of those platforms. Been doing a lot more on LinkedIn lately.
01:10:42
toddpinkston
Just bringing in some lessons from the summer out and some content so people continue to continue to grow, you know, during the times they're not on trail.
01:10:51
Steven J. Neuner
All right. Love you, brother. It's been honor.
01:10:54
toddpinkston
Love you, man. Thanks for this time.
01:10:56
Steven J. Neuner
Yep. Thank you.
01:10:56
toddpinkston
Nooner, it's an honor to get to work with you. Have a ton of respect for you. Excited about what the Lord's doing here.
01:11:01
Steven J. Neuner
Best is yet to come.
01:11:04
toddpinkston
Yes, sir.