Transcript
Speaker: in. So Jeff, any questions before we jump in? Yeah, maybe. How about we just pray real quick and then we dive into it.
Speaker: Yeah. All right. So Lord, yeah, just what an adventure life is with you, Lord. It's just, this is just good stuff. We'll figure it out through your spirit and the the mind of Christ. You'll give us some clarity here. so Thanks for just the opportunity to do life with your spirit in us. And thanks for Steve and Todd and their desire to to just get stories that will inspire others and glorify you and draw people closer or even just back to you. So thank you for them and all their efforts. And I just pray that you guide our conversation.
Speaker: and that we stay sensitive to your spirit as you prompt us. And yeah, just thanks for the opportunity. It was great Thanksgiving in anticipation for this conversation. It's in Jesus name. Amen.
Speaker: Amen. Yeah, man. All right. Hey, welcome. We are here with Jeff Spadafora. Jeff began his career as a management consultant and leadership development expert with Fortune 1000 companies.
Speaker: He then had a stint at Hack Time where he helped men and women transition from success to significance. Then in 2018 on an extended sabbatical, felt like God was inviting him into a new chapter.
Speaker: He wrote the Joy Model and is now giving his life to life on life discipleship. He's a speaker, he's a writer, he's an incredible leader. and My wife got the opportunity to work for him in her first job.
Speaker: Jeff, we are we are super excited for you to be on Unstuck and Alive. Excited to hear your story and just glean wisdom from you. So thanks for being here. Well, thank you thank you, Todd. Thank you, Steve. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker: You bet. So we're going to get a lot into the way and in the discipleship program that you've built in the Denver area. But before that, would love to just kind of hear how you've gotten to where you are today.
Speaker: Some of the the milestones and memories along the way, some of the places that you felt like you were stuck and how you felt like the Lord helped you you through it and you found freedom in it So why don't we just start out by hearing your story?
Speaker: Okay. How far back should I go? You know, to the womb. Say that again, I'm sorry. I said to the womb. There you go. All right.
Speaker: So cool. So yeah, I was born and raised in Western rural Massachusetts. So kind of a very much a, you know, a new Englander.
Speaker: it was mom and dad. My dad was a biology teacher and a high school football coach. My mom was a nurse, had two older brothers.
Speaker: Never missed a Sunday of church. I grew up in the Catholic tradition. until I was 15 I ended up going to a prep school and from age 15 to age 35 I never set foot in a church and it was I had I really had no axe to grind against the church I just didn't understand the relevance like why why do you even need God I was kind of particularly in prep school and then in in college I was kind of just
Speaker: Handed the American dream playbook, which is hey, you know You know get an education go make some money have some fun get married have some kids don't be a jerk like okay What's like that's a that's you know a pretty good formula what's wrong with that?
Speaker: But when I got into my mid 30s I started to figure out what was wrong with that I was just I was working the playbook fairly successfully And, you know, had a wonderful wife and three healthy kids. And I was able to move to the mountains of Colorado where the fly fishing is fantastic and the skiing is awesome and the mountain biking was awesome, is making money.
Speaker: i just wasn't happy. and And so I was stuck. I was stuck. i I really, I was having an existential crisis where everything that I thought would bring me joy just wasn't. And i I had been pulling all these different levers. I've been pulling, you know, professional levers. Well, try this kind of a job or try this different firm.
Speaker: Or was pulling, you know, recreational levers. Well, maybe if I just ski more or take more time to fish, that'll bring me joy. and And ultimately it dawned on me, maybe I've given up on the spiritual level. Maybe there's something that I inadvertently, you know, kind of threw out when I was younger.
Speaker: And it's time to revisit that. And so in my late 30s, I'm sorry. And i don't want but i don't want to break the flow, but there's something i think real significant here that I would love if you would just expand a little bit more on, if I could.
Speaker: Sure. Yeah. So, you know, so raising a Catholic tradition, 15 to 35, was the prep school, was it, was it faith-based? No, it was not. It was not. Okay.
Speaker: So, I mean, what like what, it like just slowing down the game footage little bit, like what was the departure, like 15 to 20 years, okay, Like, it sounds like, so if you were to rewind, I mean, there yeah there's there's parents listening, there are all kinds of people listening.
Speaker: Like, where where did the drift start to happen?
Speaker: I think what it was, was the the disconnect between sort of theology slash religion and what that has to do with my day-to-day life.
Speaker: I couldn't, I just couldn't make that connection. i thought it was irrelevant. And, you know, it wasn't just prep school. The college I went to, you know, in the Northeast, I never once in four years did I have somebody invite me to go to church.
Speaker: I never once heard anybody having like a serious and intellectually honest conversation about God or Jesus Christ. I never looked on a bulletin board, either in the dining commons or elsewhere, that said, hey, Bible study going on.
Speaker: It was just a vacuum, a spiritual vacuum. And so it it wasn't it wasn't like necessarily my heart prone to wandering, which which it was, trust me.
Speaker: But it was just no access or invitation that was that I was aware of. and And I was just having fun. i happened to be a Division III school, so I was able to play football and baseball. I was doing well academically. I was partying. i had great friends.
Speaker: it was It was pretty fun. and But it started to just lose steam as I got into my 30s. Like, is this what my life is is all about? It's like just work and make money and do stuff?
Speaker: and i Really, I think the way that God reached out to me was in my heart. I just had a desire to do something bigger. than i felt like just the work world was was interesting, but I just wasn't passionate about it, and I didn't see how it was going to have a larger impact. And so I wasn't really hungry for God in my late 30s. I was hungry for for meaning and purpose. And I figured that maybe God could, when I when i started to get curious again about about spirituality, maybe God could lead me to that.
Speaker: And so i kind of i went on a sort of a, you know, almost at like an undergraduate level of self-study exploration of all the world's great religions.
Speaker: And to just, if I was going to move in that direction, I wanted to do it. while I was informed. And just at the time that I kind of made that decision that I was going to start exploring this, my wife says to me, i think maybe we should go to church.
Speaker: And I looked at her and I'm like, why in the world would we ever do a thing like that? so Like, Sunday's for mountain biking, Sunday's for hanging out with the family, Sunday's for going skiing. Like, why would we ever do that? And it was so perplexing to me because, like, I went to church as a kid. Her family didn't. They were barely Christers, you know, Christmas and Easter. And I'm like, looking at her, like, what are you talking about?
Speaker: And she said something really interesting. It's just funny how God works, you know. She said, well, you know, the kids are young, but I feel like we should get them in an environment where there's some good morals. And it seems like your mom and your dad, they have good morals. They're they've got they're sort of level-headed. They're they're kind.
Speaker: And maybe we should do this. And so so, you know, we naively go off to church thinking, oh, it's for the kids. We're fine. And I i end up, you know, I end up with my butt in a pew at at a little Baptist church, and I hear the gospel.
Speaker: And I'm like, oh my word, like if if that's true, that's kind of a game changer. And so i i need to I need to really dig into this. Now, Michelle, she within like three or four months, she was like, Jesus is the way.
Speaker: Jesus is the way. I'm going the way of Jesus. And she just said to me, listen, you can keep exploring. But I'm going with Jesus, and I prefer that as you do your own inner work in exploration, don't confuse the kids.
Speaker: And so that was fine. So I just continued to go through all this study of the different world's major religions. And at one point she said to me, she said, listen, why don't you why don't you just read the Bible and stop looking for the conspiracy theory?
Speaker: I had this weird thing in my head, Steve and and Todd, that was like the but the the church was sort of after my money. Or the church was like a the church was like a power play to keep people down. You know, I had all these weird things in my head.
Speaker: And she said, why don't you just read the Bible and just like just like pretend for a moment it's true. And so I was like, oh, what the heck? The other stuff's not working. So I just i just cleared my mind.
Speaker: And I just read the book of John and I was just like the spirit, the the living word jumped off the pages of the written word and into my heart.
Speaker: And I was like, I get it. I see what's going on here. This is pure grace, pure love, pure power, pure unity with, with this unbelievable triune God.
Speaker: And it just smacked me. And that was, that was the kicker, man. That's what pushed me over the edge. Wow. That's awesome. That was awesome. And so Jeff, at that time, you're still working in the in the corporate world, right?
Speaker: And so you are, i mean, you're articulating so many things that I think men, whether they're going to church or not, they have these thoughts, like they've,
Speaker: They've read the playbook. They're going to do it to the best of their ability. If they're driven and they know their gifts, they're going to you know they're going to receive accolades. They're going to get you know more zeros behind the commas.
Speaker: And they're going to receive what they think is the prize. and it's And it's empty. And there's that, you know, the the halftime term. There's that smoldering discontentment.
Speaker: And you found Jesus. yeah what yeah What began to change at that moment? And and it'll it'll eventually change your career. What started changing inside that then fleshed out and and how did you make that big decision to to transition over to working with halftime and then future down the road to start the way? Yeah, so so such a good question.
Speaker: So remember, I wasn't looking for Jesus per se. You were looking for purpose. Exactly. And I thought perhaps God, whoever this God might be, might lead me to the purpose. And so my my intentions weren't noble, like, oh, I want Jesus, you know, I'm going to honor him and all this stuff. It wasn't that at all. It's like, dude, I want to wake up in the morning excited about life.
Speaker: yeah And in the process of that, Jesus intervened. And and so so as I continue to grow an understanding of of God and of of his our incarnation as a man and to follow his teachings and then to to to take the other half of the gospel, i always say there's one half of the gospel, which is but believe in Jesus, go to go to heaven.
Speaker: The other one is receive his spirit and enjoy heaven now. that's That's a gospel that that actually wasn't preached in that little Baptist church. It was all about when you die, you know, by and by, I'll fly away.
Speaker: but like, what about now? And so this other half of the gospel, I started to i started to see that. and And so what was happening is was still trying to figure out, again, this connection between theology and my day-to-day living and just how do I feel? Like like my emotional and and psychological well-being, like what does this have to do with it? And so i' was still trying to figure out this purpose issue.
Speaker: When a guy said to me, dude, you're in halftime. And i was like what like, what does that mean? And there was a book written by Bob Buford called Halftime for people trying to, they're in transition, trying to figure out what's next for them.
Speaker: And I read that book and I called up Bob. I actually got one of his coworkers, Todd, that Aaron and I worked with Greg Murtha Yeah. And Greg said, Greg said, Hey, you know, it's more than just a book. Bob's has created this organization that helps people figure this out. So I signed up for their program.
Speaker: And as I went through the program, I popped out on the other side and it was like, I think my calling is to help people figure out their calling. I, I wanted to do for more people that were stuck with smoldering discontent, what the halftime Institute had done for me.
Speaker: So as as a client of Halftime, you know i became friends with Bob and I said, Bob, you know, how can I help you guys? Like I want to, this is like really interesting to me and I want to help. And he says, well, listen, you've you've done all this executive coaching and corporate world coaching.
Speaker: Would you build a coaching methodology that could become a part of our approach to help people discern God's calling? in their life and so i was like man i'd love to do that and so 13 years later we coaching was really the core of what we were doing at the halftime institute and we had 41 coaches in six countries and i was just i was just having a blast and so so ultimately
Speaker: you know, like God planted this desire, this hunger in my heart to make a difference. And and i just ended up, it's sort of like when you find when a person discovers their calling, Bob Buford, he used to say, it's it's a little bit more like archaeology than it is architecture. more There's clues in the past that are often more informative and helpful to explore than just trying to reimagine I'm going to reinvent myself.
Speaker: And so what what you, in my archeology, my greatest source of pain was purposelessness. And so it it gave me this immense empathy for other men and women who, Christian men and women who are just,
Speaker: sort of lost, like they're their calendars and their careers don't line up with their values and their dreams and their aspirations. And it's like, how do you get that stuff in sync?
Speaker: And so, so yeah, i ended up, you know, landing in this place of helping people grow in their faith, get aligned with their calling, and it was all born out of, you know, some of my deep pain for my my earlier life.
Speaker: that is That's so beautiful. i I would love to drill down just a couple of questions just because of the unique breadth of experience it sounds like you had there. i mean, working with high performing people that are like going through halftime, believers, faith filled people. What do you think like what were the most common things that you think quietly kept people stuck?
Speaker: Yeah. Well, and it's it's interesting. it's It's a part of why I think God's, you know, led me eight years ago to start the way.
Speaker: i think there were a lot of people who came through halftime, and we underestimated the maturity of their faith and the maturity of their understanding of God. i think Bob was such a faith-filled person that he just expected everybody was at the same level.
Speaker: And what I started to notice is that some of these people would come in and they would get engaged in some of the most amazing organizations that were, you know, kind of, you know, not just working the the spiritual agenda that Jesus had, but also the social agenda. like like working on poverty issues and water issues and nutrition issues and evangelism and all this kind of stuff, both in the nonprofit world but also in the for-profit world.
Speaker: But i also noticed there were a whole bunch of them that were still sort of sad. or they're doing great things that are sort of like moving the needle and by one set of metrics,
Speaker: but they're still kind of angry. They're still kind of jerks to their to their wives. their Their kids don't know them. And I'm sort of like, wow, like there's some fruit, but then there's this other fruit that's just like really missing. And so I think some of the blockage, I think a lot of people came in thinking, oh, if I just if i just give my time, talent, and treasure away to a kingdom purpose, then God will finally bless me with a peace.
Speaker: Because what i really... I really don't want purpose. What I want is peace. And I think that purpose will be my pathway to peace. Like honoring God will be my pathway to peace.
Speaker: But I've seen so many people who are like laboring for the Lord, but they're not just relishing their relationship with the Lord. you know, I think about Psalm 1611 is like in thy presence is the fullness of joy. Like I don't, I don't have to, i don't have to get busy for Jesus.
Speaker: to experience what my heart is really hungry for. yeah And so i don't know if that answers your question, but that was some of the texture, or the dynamics that were going on that I saw that that then led me to to being able to hear from the Lord on my next assignment from 2018. So, Jeff, in a lot of ways it sounds like the approach – in that halftime stage, if we're not careful is we take the playbook of what do I do? How, like the tactics. And we just change the context from, you know, the corporate world to whether it's full time or we're just, you know, giving away some excess time into, you know, the nonprofit or the, you know, the do good world.
Speaker: But, but that outside change doesn't change what's going on in our hearts that they're, that there at the same time has to be this pulling back to start discovering what's really going on on the inside.
Speaker: And that's where that's where the joy, and and and in all reality, it doesn't matter what the context is. That joy, just like you said, can be found no matter what we're doing.
Speaker: that Yeah, that's exactly it. You know, it's sort of what Paul says, is the Apostle Paul, you know, I've learned the secret of contentment, whether abounding or abased.
Speaker: It's like there is, there is through the indwelling Christ and the transformative power of cooperating with that spirit, there is the possibility to, to increase your joy without changing your circumstances. Yeah. and And, and so the, the men that I'm working with now, they're all Christians and,
Speaker: In some ways, I used to feel like at halftime, we were kind of rescuing men from the the myth that, you know, that the world could provide joy.
Speaker: and we were pointing them towards serving the kingdom will provide joy. And what I feel like now is I'm rescuing men from bad Christianity and bad bad theology.
Speaker: And where these guys are, it's like, listen, I'm a Christian. Like, I know the Bible. Like, I can pass the Bible 101, 201, 301.
Speaker: why am i Why am I still frightened? Why do I have anxiety? Why do I find myself trying to control my wife? Why do I find myself flying off the handle at my kids?
Speaker: I know... the fruit of the Spirit is available to me, the ninth fruit of the Spirit from Galatians 5, 22, 23. I've been going to church for a long time.
Speaker: Something ain't right. Either this gospel is is a hoax, or I'm not understanding it. Like, I'm um'm assured of my salvation long term, but I am not i am not rescued from my neuroses now.
Speaker: I need help. and And so... this is where This is where now it's not so much how do i how do I make theology apply to my day-to-day living. It's like how does theology intersect with my psychology and with my emotional state and with my past and with my wounding and with with the fears that drive me that are that I either are aware of or the ones that I'm not aware of but they're controlling me.
Speaker: And yeah it's it's sort of like what Dallas Willard said. He said, Listen, your subconscious thoughts will overpower your lofty professions of faith every day of the week. So you can quote Romans 8.28. You can just, you know, whatever. You pick your favorite little coffee mug verse. You can say that all day long.
Speaker: But if deep down your subconscious operating system is is working from from lies and fears and limiting beliefs. Like, you're toast, man. You're just going to live in cognitive dissonance. You're going to be going through all the church-y motions, but, you know, church-y motions, not church-y motions. You'll be going through the motions, and you will be frustrated, and you'll be—this is where a man needs to deconstruct their faith and and sort of get rid of Christianity and bond to Christ.
Speaker: Amen. and And that is, to me, such a fun and interesting and privileged project to work on with men, is to let Christ really renew their minds.
Speaker: And i I want to dig into that, but i like, so something you just said, I mean, jumps out to me. So so so like, you you you you hear the gospel, you're in the Baptist pew, right? Like, you go through this transformation, interchanges that become external, you've partner up with halftime, you're part of, you know, uh, really doing a lot of like amazing kingdom work. And then now you're being like called to something different.
Speaker: What was your subconscious thing in there? Cause like you're, you're, yourre you're, you're in a lot of ways from, from, from an outside view, you're, you're at a spiritual peak, right? And then you're being called away to something different. So I'm i'm curious, the, the subcon, like, what was the, what, what was that inner conflict? How did you start noticing it? What, like, where, how did that, uh, illuminate for you?
Speaker: Man, you guys are asking really good questions because I'm kind of blown by some stuff that's pretty important. and the, the, one of the things that, that was,
Speaker: really interesting to me. here, hold on one second. Sorry about that. One of the things that was really interesting to me is that when I went on sabbatical, I was 13 years at halftime and I was actually in probably the best place I had ever been with halftime. i had, I had, know, I was, I was coaching men again, as opposed to just training and managing the coaches. There were a few years there where I was like,
Speaker: I was like the coach of the coaches, but I never got to coach anybody. And and I was able to hire somebody to manage the U.S. s coaches and hire another really talented person to manage the the international coaches.
Speaker: And so I wasn't, like, really hungry for change. But I was on this sabbatical, and we had six weeks in the south of Spain, and I had committed that all I was going to do was going to read 15 years of journaling.
Speaker: I was going to pray. i was goingnna i was going to read nothing but the red letters of the four gospels. And then I was just going to work out, ride my bike, and hang out with Michelle. That that was my objective, to do that for six weeks.
Speaker: And man, like on day five, I hear from the Lord. And I don't typically hear from the word the Lord audibly. It's usually a knowing or an intuition, but this was more audible.
Speaker: And he said something that was very similar to what one of my clients at halftime heard from God. And he says, you need to get your head wrapped around leaving the halftime Institute.
Speaker: And I was like, what was that all about? It took me it took me a couple of days to share that with Michelle. And, and she said, she said, Jeff, you are ready to leave. And I know you've been ready to leave. And I'm like, wow.
Speaker: Wow. Yeah. Well, she said, you, you, if you had left like three or four years ago, that would have been kind of irresponsible, but you have a team in place. And like, if you leave, it's not going to mess up the the halftime ministry. They're going to be fine.
Speaker: And and you I've i' sensed this antsiness in you. And I was like, man, like she could see it and I didn't. And and so what what really started to work on my heart was, you know, how can how can I help men grow in freedom?
Speaker: So not so much in purpose, but in psychological, emotional, spiritual freedom. where where you can get a man to a point where I've got nothing to hide, nothing to lose, nothing to prove.
Speaker: and i've just And to live from that space where I'm fully whole and in the world is is my oyster and all I need to do is is cooperate with the spirits prompting. And I just wanted to get men to that place. and But to to your question, Steve,
Speaker: the The inner dialogue that initially hit me was how and I still had a mortgage at that time. How am I going to how am i going to pay the bills? Like, what does this look like?
Speaker: The other thing is in all of my consulting and all of my time with Aftime, I'd never been the number one leader of an organization. I've always been on a team. And so I had a bit of a lie in my head about, am I really an entrepreneur?
Speaker: me So, so I had, I had, you know, Satan chirping in my ear. you don't have the skill and and you, and you don't have the cash.
Speaker: And so what was so interesting about that is that, I, I was, for whatever reason, God prompted me to bring all my journals with me to Spain.
Speaker: And as I read them, I saw, seven. unmitigated, unmistakable financial miracles that God had planted, you know, made happen in our lives.
Speaker: And I remember sharing this with Michelle and she says, Jeff, like he's done seven financial miracles for us since we've been believers. Why wouldn't he do an eighth?
Speaker: Why wouldn't he do a ninth? Why wouldn't he do a 10th, 20th, a 30th? Yeah. And so we really got to the point where it was just when you look at it Matthew 6, 33, which is like, dude, just focus on the kingdom.
Speaker: Focus on helping people experience the kingdom now and in the hereafter. And all these other things, food, clothing clothing, shelter, all these other things will be added onto you.
Speaker: And so by the end of that by the end of that sabbatical, I had crafted by the spirit a plan to launch the way.
Speaker: and came back the to the states the following day, I handed in my resignation to the Halftime Institute. We built a responsible departure plan that would honor them and all of my commitments. And i was off and running.
Speaker: Come on. that is yeah i want to i want I want to get to the way it like oozes out of you. i love I love it. It's like the culmination of what the Lord's been doing in your life for 30 years. And so it just it seeps out. it's It's great. And we're going to get there. I want to know more about the model, what you're seeing there. But before that, I don't want to bypass. you know you You cannot impart what you do not possess. like You're leading these men.
Speaker: out of what the Lord has done in you. you know, and you brought up Michelle a couple times, you've got an amazing bride and then guys are, are doing a lot together. She's got you know, a component of ministry where she's bringing the physical body in. And i mean, we could do a whole podcast on that. It's incredible, but I want to know what did your kids and what did your wife notice in you as you were going through your own shifts? Like,
Speaker: what what were the What were the observations they had of how those you know internal changes were showing up in the way that you led your family?
Speaker: Yeah. Well, I think in the first transition of leaving the consulting world and and joining on with Halftime, Michelle's observation was my husband's a scaredy cat.
Speaker: and and And a psychopath and a schizophrenic. I'm telling you, man, just the amount of unwiring of my brain yeah from from the business world to a kingdom lens. I think,
Speaker: i don't think i know i know this is why Jesus spent three years with 12 knuckleheads from the neighborhood. Because you got to think these guys, these, these disciples are brainwashed in a paradigm of ancient Judaism that sees God as distant and cold. And you can only get his approval. If you comply with the 613 Judaic laws, it, it took Jesus three years
Speaker: To get these guys to think about God differently, God is with you, God is for you, God can power you, God is your source of freedom, that that is just that is not ancient Judaism. And it took them three years to get them to unravel that. And so as I was trying to unravel that in my first big transition, it was frightening, man. It was like stepping into an abyss.
Speaker: Now, the the second transition, you know, leaving halftime and starting to wait, that was much different. I had that fear in Spain, but it went away. and I think it was because Michelle and I were more mature as Christians, and we were more attuned to how the Spirit works in our lives.
Speaker: And, you know, I've had people say to me, Spad, you live so courageously, like the stuff you do. And this one guy said that to me, and I was like, oh, thank you. And then I stepped away, and I was like, what was what was he saying there?
Speaker: And what I come to realize is is when you trust God, you know, let's just say you trust God 50 times, and each time that you take that leap of faith, you get some sort of a blessing that you either expected or didn't expect. It's like,
Speaker: Yeah. And then, and then the 51st time you get a prompting, you're like, well, like the dude's batting 1000, like, why would I not trust him? Why would I not trust him? And so it moves to a point where, what looks like courage to some people is sort of like common sense to, to somebody who's really, and when I tell the the men at the way is that I just say, listen,
Speaker: The best way to grow in your trust with God is to do lots of micro experiments of trust. Like just follow these little inner promptings that are sort of low risk. and And just see where it leads you. See what you learn. See what gets revealed. See how your heart changes.
Speaker: And just pay attention. And so it's hard to have blind faith. But boy, when you, when when when you are just cooperating with the spirit and seeing these many blessings, it becomes easier to do down the road. And so that second transition wasn't, wasn't quite as big a deal.
Speaker: now for my kids to answer that part of the question, particularly early on, you know, i think when I was a consultant, I traveled a lot. And even when I was with half time, I traveled a lot, but Michelle would say the kids listen in the olden days, dad would travel to go make money for us.
Speaker: But now he's he's traveling to go help other people. And i think I think that was a good paradigm for them to see that it ain't all about us and our house in Breckinridge and all this other stupid stuff. It's about helping others.
Speaker: And so I think they got that lesson pretty clearly early on. So I would love to follow up on one thing. So, and I love the trust God 50 times, batting a thousand. Like, it just sings to my spirit. it's it i I love it.
Speaker: And so while articulate I still, i am i am curious though, I know still even so, transitions like this often come with sacrifice. And I guess I'm just curious, like what part of the transition from halftime, like what, what, what was, what, what was the sacrifice? What were you surprised by anything? Did you grieve anything that you didn't see that you'd be grieving?
Speaker: Yeah, there sometimes there are sacrifices that are sort of material. In that case, it was definitely a financial sacrifice. There was also a bit of a social sacrifice, just, you know, I had to take a cut and pay.
Speaker: And, you know, I remember i remember going over to a friend's house for barbecue and pulled into the driveway and there's Range Roamers and BMWs and, you know, Mercedes Benzes.
Speaker: And I was driving Hyundai. And back in those days, Hyundai isn't as cool as it is now. Hyundai and Kia are awesome, awesome vehicles now. but back then, it was kind of a crappy vehicle. And I remember pulling in and saying, man, I don't – I've had to take a step back financially. Can I be okay with some of the embarrassment of that and just know that the good news is I wake up in the morning and I get to help people, you know, connect to God. And like to me, that was one little psychological trick that I would play on myself is I would imagine that, you know, at the beginning of the year,
Speaker: I would be paid what I used to get paid as a consultant, and then I would write an imaginary check for $100,000, which is about the the haircut I took on my pay.
Speaker: and And in exchange for that $100,000, I get to do what I really want to do each morning. Like, I get to do this. And it was worth it to me. and so I don't know, sometimes you just got to play these little mind games to help you to help you get through these transitions.
Speaker: So those are those are some. I mean, the transition to start the way from scratch, there wasn't a ton, really, of sacrifice. There was just fear.
Speaker: Fear, could I pull it off? Mm-hmm. I also, i really was interested in helping younger men and you know, younger men don't have the money, you know? And so I remember coming back to Colorado and I gathered up some guys, some older guys that I coached through halftime and said, listen, I want to run an idea that God's put on my heart by you guys. What do you think?
Speaker: And by the time i had got done sharing what I wanted to do for younger men, they all said, well, we want that too. we want we want we want We want a little bit more and a little bit different around the spiritual depth that halftime offered us. We we want that.
Speaker: And so I was just like, you've got to be kidding me, God. Like, I can't figure out how he's going to fund this. And now I've got these men that are saying, like, we'll pay for it, and we'll pay a premium for it.
Speaker: And the in the excess that we pay in tuition can be used as scholarships for the younger guys who can't afford it and was like, I would never have come up with that idea. And God just instantly resolved that whole thing, is that i could serve I could serve older men and younger men and still get the math to work. and But that was scary because I remember i when i I was on it actually i was on a silent retreat,
Speaker: and And these guys had just said, we want this. and But I was concerned that that might be that might be disobedient to what I had heard in Spain. And so I just said, Jesus, I just slowed down my heart. I slowed down my mind. One little trick I do is I sometimes picture me and Jesus in a cafe, and and we're just sitting there having a chat.
Speaker: I said, Lord, listen, I don't want to be disobedient. So, like, what's the deal? Is it the older guys or the younger guys? And he gave me a little bit of a smile, kind of like a wry smile, sort of like a twinkle in his eye type of smile.
Speaker: and And he said, listen, just show them the real me. hey And that, you know, you know how Jesus is. He never answers the question correctly. But that was...
Speaker: That one to me was just like, I get it. It's like, stop worrying about the age. Like stop. It just, just show people the real me and not just me, Jesus, the historical figure, but my spirit connect them to my spirit. The same spirit that raised me from the dead is available to these Christian men and they don't know it. They're just,
Speaker: They're just battling through Christianity through good behavior and obedience, but they're not cooperating with the freedom that the spirit gives. And so it's like, forget about their age. Just go just go help them. Now, the fact of the matter is we we do split our our men out into different demographics just because their seasons of life are so different in the issues they deal with. So, so we have emerging leaders and seasoned leaders, you know, so we, we do do that, but,
Speaker: But so anyway, like Jesus just helped me get over some of those hurdles early on. That's that awesome is awesome. And so Jeff, you you launch in and and you take a life on life approach.
Speaker: You've got these groups set up. You know, you're now eight years in it's grown. You've got folks that are, you know, helping lead the groups with you. What are you seeing these levels?
Speaker: these men, but I would even say specifically that the emerging leaders. what What are you seeing as their roadblocks? Like where are, where does the false self rage in them and what are you doing to help them, yeah you know, see he's the real Jesus and understand what transformation and freedom looks like inside?
Speaker: Oh man. This is like my favorite topic. Thank you for asking that. I love hearing you talk on it. yeah it's It's sort of, well, what's really cool is we're finally getting some Catholic guys into into our community. Thank God for our Catholic brothers because they bring so much.
Speaker: I'm not saying that Catholicism is better than Protestantism, but I'm just saying they bring a different lens that's refreshing and we can all learn from one another. But what what what comes to mind for me is listening to John Mark Comer.
Speaker: quote Ruth Haley Barton. I don't know if you know who Ruth Haley Barton is. don't. But she she's sort of like was is it was, you know, raised in a strong evangelical tradition. And she said, I'd come to the end of what the typical evangelical discipleship model had to offer my life.
Speaker: And I found it wanting. And and if you think about the typical evangelical model, it's pray more and and study the Bible more.
Speaker: But what John Mark Comer tacked onto her statement when I heard him quote it was what was what I think gets in the way, Todd.
Speaker: He said, i too had come to the end of that. And I found myself a ball of neuroses and OCD behaviors.
Speaker: I needed to understand the nexus between psychology and spirituality. The nexus between those two. And many, many church traditions are very leery of psychology.
Speaker: and And John Mark Comer found that he needed to to marry up, it goes back to Dallas Willard, he needed to marry up his subconscious with the power and the truth and the light and the healing potential of God and God's love and Jesus' is teaching and Jesus' spirit. And so when you can help a guy understand that subconsciously They believe things about money, about people, about sex, about conflict, about relationships. When you can help them realize that they actually think differently about those things than the Bible is actually trying to teach you.
Speaker: If they can they can identify where where does Satan have me boxed in in a way I don't even see it and then shine, shine light on it and see it rightly.
Speaker: Now I can step into the freedom and and all of it at the base of it all that's holding back. It's always fear. It's always 100% the time. It's some sort of fear.
Speaker: What will people think? How will I pay the bills? It's just, you know, the the the other big lies are God's disappointed with me.
Speaker: i'm not I'm not worthy of his love. Like, he forgives all my sins except for that atrocious thing I did as a sophomore in college. Like, that he can't forgive.
Speaker: So he may love me, but he I think he's still he's still angry at me. and then the other big lie, I think, is is that that I'm incapable of change.
Speaker: Like I tried, I've done the Bible study. I just, I'm incapable of change. And so if we can if we can help a young man or an older man identify what is the the the specific texture of the fear that's holding you back from exploring a real life of freedom and impact,
Speaker: If we can identify that and and let the spirit dismantle that, now you can make progress in your life. i don't know if that, I hope that makes sense.
Speaker: A hundred percent. So Jeff, when somebody's hearing that and I've been in those shoes, you know, saying, I want that. there's There's like this, are you telling me that actually exists?
Speaker: But then there's the chasm of how do I get there? And so yeah will you will you tease that out a little bit of like, I know there's not a formula, but what is the process of of getting there? I mean, it takes time. It takes it takes yeah vulnerability over time in circles. But I mean, just what what do you learn about that? what What can somebody do if they're if they're not in Denver, Colorado and can't get in a group with the way?
Speaker: What can they start doing right now that you know, because the spirit lives everywhere. I mean, it's like, yes, yeah there's there's certain quote-unquote programs that are that are that are helpful, but at the same time, man, God wants to deliver me wherever I am towards that freedom. So what what can what can somebody do to start taking steps in that direction?
Speaker: Yeah, such a good question. the The first step is to not start with behavior, but to start with your thinking.
Speaker: so So you think about the nine fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5, 22, 23, love, peace, patience, joy, goodness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control. What most guys do is they, that are Christians, it's like, okay, I'm saved, I'm going to heaven.
Speaker: Now my job is to sin less and to profess these virtues, these nine fruit. And what happens is You can act patiently, but have you been transformed into a patient human being?
Speaker: you you can You can act kindly, but are you a kind man? It's the difference between doing and being. Exactly. Yeah. and and and and And changing, like this new creation that that is started, you cooperate with the spirit by renewing your mind and you're transformed from a good little Christian boy who does good little things to a powerful Christian man who can't help but do great things. Like I can't, it's my essence. My essence begets my action. And so that is the trick. Now, how do you do that? So, you know, it's it's sort of you start with, Lord, help me to understand my anxious ways.
Speaker: Like, what what are what are the things that I'm anxious about? What are the things I'm angry about? Why do I control people? And a simple thing to do is just to keep asking the question, why, five times.
Speaker: So I'm anxious I'm controlling. Well, why? And then you'll get to an answer. And then ask again, so but so why is that something that's in my frame of reference?
Speaker: And then, now, why did that pop on why did that come online when I was a younger man? and And so you keep drilling down further and further and further until you understand what's really controlling you.
Speaker: And then you blast away at that lie. and I'll give you an example in a bit. You blast away at that lie with God's love and truth.
Speaker: And so... So I'll give you an example for me. This is something that even just in the last like 10 years it was revealed to me is i would say the biggest, my biggest sin is busyness. Now let me define sin Sin is not bad stuff you do that causes God to get mad at you and withhold blessing.
Speaker: That is not sin. Sin is any thinking, speech, or behavior that blocks the blessing that this loving God is desperately trying to get to us.
Speaker: So he doesn't he doesn't step away from us when we sin. We are stepping away from him. and he's not mad at us. He's brokenhearted. He's like, Jeff, come on, man. Like, there's a better way to live. Like, you can do this. I know you can do this.
Speaker: as opposed to you're a naughty boy. And so to reframe sin is really important. You are blocking the blessing. God is not withholding the blessing. And so my my biggest sin is busyness.
Speaker: And so if you follow my five whys down, you'll see that that busyness, first of all, it it encroaches on my my morning workouts.
Speaker: It encroaches on my time with the Lord. it it it it drives me to overwork. And then Michelle gets the leftovers of my energy. It's like bad. That's like robbing me of of the goodness of the abundant life. And so I have to figure out what is going on. And when I when i do that five whys, it took me to understand where it first came online. i was about seven years old.
Speaker: running down the street in my quaint little New England town. And in my head, i was thinking, man, I hope people are looking out the windows or driving by and looking out from their cars saying, look how fast that little kid can run.
Speaker: And as I think about that instant more, i feel like I almost made an agreement with an untruth. And that untruth is that impressing people is the pinnacle of joy mean not god and so when i look at my busyness it's not to please people it's to impress them like i want to serve the men of the way so well that even though i have a very altruistic intention i also want them to be impressed with how helpful i am
Speaker: And it's just insidious. Like that is still, it's almost like that, you know, when when Paul says, please remove the thorn, and I think that's my thorn. And so the way I've combated that lie is simply to say, you know, it's Proverbs 29, 25 for me, fear of man's a trap, but those who trust in the Lord are safe.
Speaker: And so, you if you can in, And I tell you, man, getting getting a Christian counselor is a great thing to do. If you can work with a Christian counselor to identify what are some of the conscious or subconscious lies, limiting beliefs, or fears that are causing you to make the decisions you make, and then you apply the truth of Scripture and you apply the truth of what the Holy Spirit is communicating to you, you can get freedom from that.
Speaker: So hopefully that's not too esoteric and that's practical enough for somebody that's trying to work through it on their own. Yeah. But it's all, a lot of what we're doing at The Way is based on Carl Jungian psychology. And i don't I don't know if you know if you know about him.
Speaker: So he's an Austrian psychologist in the nineteen thirty s His dad a minister. He's got two uncles on his dad's side that are also ministers. He's got four uncles on his mom's side that are also ministers.
Speaker: And all of them are mean and angry men.
Speaker: So think about this. You've got all these guys, like say their careers are 30 years long. they're they're They're preparing for sermons through deep study of the word.
Speaker: They're delivering these sermons, and yet there's no fruit of the spirit. And so Carl Jung is just sitting there saying, what gives? Either this is a farce or we're missing something. And that's where he understood this so subconscious thing that Dallas Willard this is why Dallas Willard was such a genius. You know, he, he was, he was the head of the psychology department at university of Southern California, not the theology department, which most people find that fascinating. they and He's a, he's a former, he's a former pastor and, and, great theologian, but he was in the psych department.
Speaker: And so so if you can uncover those fears and then try to let the spirit illuminate the truth and get freedom and courage and clarity, well, now now you're on the pathway to making decisions You know, your your your life is a result of of your thinking and your past decisions, for the most part. there There are other things that are a little bit out of our control. But if you can reframe your thinking, change your decisions, and start to move your life in alignment with how God's wired you and what he's calling you to do, you'll start to experience greater and greater freedom.
Speaker: So good. Jeff, can if I could just real quick, can I can i get you to land the plane? Because you started that with the the Catholic brothers bring so much. So I'm curious the the the connecting point or thread through that with the Catholic brothers.
Speaker: Yeah, what what I see, and and at least these Catholic guys that are in our groups, they're just like, these guys are so, so amazing. that they're they're Their appreciation of the mystery You know, when the Reformation happened in 1522, and it had to happen, the Catholic Church was just was in the wrong. that Luther was right to separate.
Speaker: but But we brought a bit of a an issue over, this whole thing around sola scriptura. It's like, we don't need tradition. We don't need priests.
Speaker: We don't need nothing. We've got a book. And so in the in the in the Protestant tradition, it's like read the book and memorize the book. And and listen, you heard my story about reading John 9, like the book of John. The the the the you know the living word can can come out of the written word.
Speaker: But for most Protestants, they don't get the living word. All they know is the written word. they they They don't appreciate the mystery of the Holy Spirit. Like in general, our Catholic brothers do.
Speaker: And, and so, so they bring, and and some of them actually are more biblically literate than some of the Protestant guys, but they also just understand that like God does some mysterious things in our hearts and minds and and try to cooperate that with that.
Speaker: Now I do think that's changing. I do think that yeah we we we have the guys do one silent retreat every year at a Christian Jesuit retreat house.
Speaker: And I remember asking the director there, it's like, how's it going here? Like, what's your occupancy? Like, are people showing up? And she said something really interesting. She said, thank God for the Protestants.
Speaker: And I'm like, what are you talking about? And what she said is, she said, the Protestants are waking up to the power of prayer And so the power of silence and union with God.
Speaker: And it seems like the Catholics have forgotten it. And so, you know, yeah it's just dangerous to stereotype. Problem with all stereotypes. tradition Yeah. a Problem with all stereotypes are often but not always true. Right.
Speaker: There you go. There you go. And so so i just, so I think that's kind of, Steve, what I was getting at was just there's an appreciation for the mystery As opposed to, you know, and i had I had a friend of mine, an old old preacher, guy's like 80 now, and he said for most for most Christians, Protestant Christians, and he was a Protestant, he said their definition of the Trinity, it's the bad guy, the good guy, and the Holy Bible.
Speaker: That is a jacked up heretical view of our triune God. susan The bad guy, instead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it's the bad guy, the good guy, and the Holy Bible. and And we've got to reorient men to the truth that there is a God incarnated who is invisible image of the the visible image of the invisible God, and in him there is no darkness. he just we're We're the ones that think up his anger,
Speaker: He's ready to help. And so, like, we've got to get theology right in the heart of our triune God right. And then cooperate with him to dismantle our lies and our fears.
Speaker: And then you start living in freedom.
Speaker: Jeff, I could sit around and listen to you talk for hours. Love the way you think. I was super a part of. I mean, truly... that Aaron and I are are rooting you on from a few hours away and and love the updates.
Speaker: How do people find more out about The Way, about the Joy Model, the book you wrote, about what you're up to? Where where can they find you? Yeah. Well, that just go to thewaytolife.org, O-R-G, o r g and it's the way and then the numeral to.
Speaker: life.org and you can see everything there. And we are, as of now, we are, you know, we've got 153 men that are a part of the community from all way far north is Fort Collins down to Colorado Springs.
Speaker: The joy model you can just find on Amazon, but there's a couple of other, a lot of people say, jeff when are you going to write your next book? And I'm like, I will write my next book when all the great books that people need to read have been read.
Speaker: Like, I don't think the world needs another book. And some of the books that i would I would encourage people to read is to read David Benner's book, The Gift of Being Yourself.
Speaker: Yeah. I'd encourage you to read Brennan Manning's book, either The Ragamuffin Gospel or Abba's Child. I wish if if I was going to write a book, it would be something that's a little bit more on that shadow work, that youngling work, but One book that I think is really helpful on that, and I can't remember the author right now. It's called Unhindered Abundance.
Speaker: And it's really about about helping people. You know, all of this stuff that we're talking about when it comes to Jungian psychology, it's so funny. Like, Paul invented this stuff. If you look at 2 Corinthians 10, 4, and 5, he's like, listen, you're going to have thoughts.
Speaker: They're going to come in, and they're going to create the illusion of separation from God. They say, you've got to take that thought captive, man. You've got to nip that in the bud, and you've got to replace that with truth. Make it make that thought obedient to the power of Christ, to the truth of Christ. And and i think this Unhindered Abundance book does a pretty good job of helping you isolate some of the lies and replace it with truth and love.
Speaker: Awesome. Got it on my list. Yes, I love it. it In true Jeff Statafore fashion, when the spotlight pointed on you you, you immediately pointed on other great folks, and I love that about you.
Speaker: You know, our hope is that, you know, people would hear this and and would understand from a man that, quote, unquote, had it all. I mean, it that had reached a pinnacle of success and found at the top that it's empty.
Speaker: and started in on on a true journey that has found freedom and joy, that they would that they would hear that and that there would be, yeah just an encouragement to to take those steps.
Speaker: And then also, I know you're intentionally being small with the way. You want it small and intentional. I mean, 150 is not small, but you are fighting back the urge to to scale and and do all the things that you know you could do because that's what you helped companies do for many years of your life.
Speaker: And at the same time, Aaron and I pray that that the model would spread, you know, whether that's organically more throughout Colorado or that, other people would hear this and say, I want, I want that. I want more of that a part of my church. And so, you're hearing this and are interested, did reach out to Jeff.
Speaker: if you're looking for an organization that is truly transforming men's lives, uh, that you would support the way Aaron and I are proud supporters of the way and, uh, excited about Jeff, what you're up to. And so, uh, hope that, uh, there's more exposure through this and,
Speaker: thank you for your time today. I'm yeah always blessed to get to hear you talk and it's a gift to have you on and pray that it's a blessing the folks that get to hear. So thanks for your time today. Thanks for shifting even when the power and the electricity or the internet's out. Fight fight.
Speaker: That you make it happen. So thanks for your time today. We really appreciate it Jeff. but Thank you, man. Really appreciate it as well. And I just,
Speaker: I hope this was practical. I want it to be more than interesting. I want it to be helpful to your listeners. So I hope we achieve that. I know I was helped and I also appreciate the resources too, Jeff. So just what a great blessing. And I can't wait to hopefully one day meet you in person when I'm up in Colorado. Yep. Swing on by anytime.
Speaker: So thank you, man. God bless you. God bless you. You bet. God bless. Yeah. Okay. Bye now.
