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Built in the Valley | Terry Pham
66 Plays28 days ago
Terry Pham is founder of Fat Straws, longtime friend, and a foundational part of WayForward’s story. Terry joins us for a conversation about growth, clarity, and transformation. Terry is always experimenting, building new habits, and pursuing growth in his personal, spiritual, and professional life. His curiosity drives him to try new things, but his deepest desire is to be transformed from the inside out by the Lord. This year, Terry is leaning into surrender, identity, and the work happening “below the line.” Though he’s a bold and accomplished entrepreneur, he’s choosing to slow down, pay attention, and let God shape the parts of his life that matter most.
We encountered some unexpected technical issues that required us to wrap this episode a bit early. We’ll be back soon to continue the conversation with Terry and dive even deeper into his story.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction of Terry Pham and His Ventures
00:00:55
Speaker
All welcome. I'm here with the one and only Terry Pham, founder of Fat Straws, the greatest bubble tea and mochi donuts on planet Earth. Also, dear friend and the real reason that Wave Forward Adventures has roots to it. Terry, welcome. Excited to have you.
00:01:13
Speaker
Dude, I'm excited to be here, man. Thanks
Concept of F2 and Intentional Living
00:01:15
Speaker
for having me. All right, you're drinking out of an F2 mug. Tell me what F2 is all about. F2 stands for further, faster. So...
00:01:25
Speaker
During COVID, a a group of folks from EO, which is a group called Entrepreneurs' Organization, we were, you know, some businesses were uncertain. And so we were getting up at 5.30 in the morning and we would hop on a Zoom call, state our intention, purpose for the day, maybe talk about some goals,
00:01:48
Speaker
And then we would mute and then leave the cameras open and do deep work for about 90 minutes. as well was It wasn't time to email. This was time to focus.
00:01:58
Speaker
And what I loved about it was the amount of work we got done in such a short period And that stillness of the morning was, was great. And so, and the idea was we can go faster, fast alone, but
Personal Transformation and Spiritual Practices
00:02:13
Speaker
further together. So this is how do we go further and faster?
00:02:16
Speaker
Come on. And, uh, this is where the, also that Buffalo analogy run towards your fear kind of came about. know way forward talks about charging the storm. So some similarities there.
00:02:28
Speaker
I love it, man. Hey, so you're you're always up to something. Like every time we talk, you're always working on something new. You've got something. I mean, just like that. It's like you got nuggets of gold from your personal life, your professional life, your spiritual life. What are you working on right now? Like what's what's mulling through your mind? What habits are you putting in place that are helping you find clarity and succeed right now?
00:02:56
Speaker
Wow, man. that's It's an interesting question because... i I think this year there's been a shift and in in some of that for me. And and I think specifically i am all i'm just naturally curious person.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah. And i get fascinated with ideas. I get fascinated with different approaches and I'm not afraid to try things. But I think one one thing that's really like, it's been challenging for me this year is have I been searching for change externally? see And again, habits, life hacks, tools, I think those things are all incredible.
00:03:41
Speaker
you know, discipline. i think all those things are really great, but if I'm not getting to the root of what's going on with me and like, so the thing I, this year I've really like, I get up and you know, i have time, time
Identity, Leadership, and Imposter Syndrome
00:03:54
Speaker
in the word. My prayer is always like God transformed my heart inside out that I would be transformed and that I wouldn't seek something external to change or transform me.
00:04:06
Speaker
And so I've, I've had to rest in that this year, which has been a little bit different.
00:04:12
Speaker
But, you know, I mean, still still curious about things. But I think that's that's the big shift for me this year. there's some There's tons of great stuff. I mean, there's things that have been really impactful. And if you know me, I'm not a sales guy. I'm an evangelist.
00:04:25
Speaker
So I'll try something and if it it brings me a lot of value, I can't help but want to share that with people. so But that's that's been one that's been challenging this year for me and it's been really great. it's I've had to kind of decouple myself from all these things and so questions of like identity and all this stuff kind of come into play.
00:04:41
Speaker
Stuff you've challenged me on has been really helpful. But yeah, I mean, that's probably the big one this year is is a little bit more surrender to the Lord and where am I finding identity?
00:04:55
Speaker
and just trying to find stillness because i'm I like to go and do and achieve and work things out and fix and solve. And I get a lot of like,
00:05:07
Speaker
joy and satisfaction. I think God wired me to do that really well. But at the same time that it can be, there's a shadow side of that. If that's where I'm finding my joy and fulfillment and my worth. And so the hardest thing for me has been trying to decouple some of those things, right? Even serving, right. Can be this really beautiful thing for me, but like, you know, what's the motivat motivation behind some of that stuff.
00:05:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So let's unpack that a little more. You've, You've been through EO. You've been, you know, Culture Index. You've done Strategic Coach. I mean, you've done all these incredible programs, tools to make you a better leader, to make fat straws operate more efficiently. You're successful. i mean, by by the world standards,
Journey from Vietnam and Building Resilience
00:05:51
Speaker
they look at a guy like you and, I mean, cover of Entrepreneur Magazine, you know, with braces on. You know, you've i've done some amazing things professionally.
00:06:03
Speaker
and And now you're actually, you know, later in your career, you're actually pulling back from some of that to focus. And we call it here like below the line. Focus on what's going on below the line. yeah And so, yeah, like what, I mean, I think that's a that's a balance that we all struggle with of like,
00:06:23
Speaker
you know, the old R Marsh is pretty like it depends on God and work like it depends on you. Totally. Totally. I mean, so where, like, where are you at in the process? Tell, tell me more just kind of of what you're mulling over and kind of how you got to the conclusion you're at right now.
00:06:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, it's, it's, so it's interesting. I'm, I'm actually next week. I'm going to be going to Vietnam. that's That's where my family's from. I've never been there.
00:06:49
Speaker
Yeah. It's literally 50 years. I turned 50 in August. Wow. So in many regards, it's almost like, and you've heard my life story. It's almost like, I heard this i heard this actually a great podcast recently. it's It's an older one. It's Johnny Kim.
00:07:04
Speaker
He's the meme on the internet is he's the perfect Asian son. He's a Navy SEAL. He's a Harvard Medical School graduate. Wow. He's a doctor, and he's a NASA astronaut. so And he became this joke, and i was is this guy real? And he was on the Jocko podcast. And like one of the things he actually talks about, because you hear a story, and it's incredible, because all that's forged through suffering and pain and brokenness. And it's like yeah stories you hear on trails, stories I hear in EO. It's like, it's it's it's it's life.
00:07:37
Speaker
And I think one of the things he talks about is, man, it's like he says, so much of my life is an accident. right And like as he's a believer, too. And as a believer, like I know we don't believe it. like Nothing's an accident.
00:07:50
Speaker
But many ways, my life, I related to the the language around that because we left Vietnam in April, three days before Saigon fell.
Fatherhood and Shaping Identity
00:08:01
Speaker
And I'm literally like born just a few months later and a refugee camp in, you know, Arkansas.
00:08:08
Speaker
So my story, like, you know, without going too deep into a lot of this is about, you know, My dad died when I was really young. So so it's like, how does a, I have always say, how does a woman teach a boy to be a man? It's really tough, right? You can't impart what you don't possess kind of a thing.
00:08:28
Speaker
And so I kind of wrestled with a lot of that. And it's like identity and acceptance and figuring out like, kind of how do i fit into all this? And so probably grew up a lot of a lot of my life just being kind of like,
00:08:43
Speaker
scared or uncertain, having to figure things out on my own. But I think through that, that built resilience and grit and like having to learn how to just figure good things out on my own. Yeah. And that served me well in life.
00:09:00
Speaker
But in and so a lot of like, I think the good qualities, you want to say a lot of my gifts, they're not inherently bad, but there's a shadow side to some of that stuff of like, am I serving, wanting, is my desire to serve truly out of the dieter's desire to serve? Or is there something deeper of a desire just to feel acceptance and love? And is my desire, you know, is my identity an entrepreneur, right? And sometimes, you know, and it's been challenging, that business has been challenging the last few years.
00:09:39
Speaker
And it's it's made me question, like, oh am I an entrepreneur? and And so to grow up without a dad, like, I've had to kind of figure a lot of this stuff out. And and I remember a friend of mine years ago asked me, like, he's like, man when did you become a man?
00:09:56
Speaker
he You know, and I had to wrestle with that question. I thought, you know, the day I became a man is actually the day I became a dad. wow and And the reason I said that is because like, whether I was a man at that point or not, I knew i had to teach my son how to be a man.
00:10:10
Speaker
So I'm going to have to figure it out. So that was like a, I still remember it was like a defining moment for me. It's like, oh he's the, you have a son now you get to be a father.
00:10:21
Speaker
And so like the kid who grew up without a dad, how incredible, like I've got the, the the blessing of that relationship to get experience that. a father-son relationship but on the other side, you know? So I often say i've been, I was shaped more by the absence of my father than the presence of him. Cause he died when I was really young. Yeah. And so I've had to wrestle with a lot of this stuff. And and like, ironically enough, my son, called Tyler called me last night late and he was kind of he's working right now and he was just talking about some stuff and wrestling with control and like identity. And, and I said, man, I almost feel like,
00:11:02
Speaker
wanted you to call me and i'm I'm supposed to hear this because it's making me wrestle almost preparation for my conversation with you today. and like, I had to kind of like unpack some of that stuff in my head and it was kind of a great preface to it. But yeah. So, I mean, I've, yeah, to just, to kind of tie it all together. Yes. I've had some success. I've, there's all this, some, some great stuff, but I,
00:11:26
Speaker
I would be inauthentic if I didn't say I still wrestle with like imposter syndrome or am I good enough? Or like, am I really all these things? I mean, like when I joined EO, I was like, I don't know if and i'm I'm an entrepreneur. i don't know if I belong here. These guys have these big businesses and like, yeah, my business is doing okay. But like, I just said,
00:11:47
Speaker
I'm just a son of immigrants who runs a bubble tea shop. And I, as I say, I sling tea for a living, you know? And, but what I learned quickly was, through life stories, through vulnerability and through authenticity is like, Oh, I'm no different than these guys. Like we all have our wounds. We all have our brokenness. And like, those are the things that if anything, there was a common thread of the room is like, i don't think there was a single guy in that room who came from what came from, a you know, family with a silver spoon.
00:12:18
Speaker
Everyone came from, i think everyone in that room came from broken families or had some hardship in life. So that's the thing I've been through a lot of work, through a lot of prayer and through God's grace. It's something, this journey I'm continuing to be on is unpack all this stuff.
Economic Challenges and Self-Doubt
00:12:36
Speaker
he That's rich. And it's cool you mentioned that because you actually played that role for me. I mean, when WayForward started, i mean, talk about imposter syndrome. I'm like, I was a ministry guy that went to seminary. I'm like, I know nothing about business.
00:12:53
Speaker
and here And I found you and I was like, hey, you know, I want to i want to run an organization with the same caliber that you run yours. And can you teach me? And and you you taught me some incredible, you know, business tools.
00:13:10
Speaker
But the greatest thing you gave me was, man, I'm just like you. Like, to to know that, holy cow, he doesn't have it all figured out. Holy cow. Like, he wrestles with things on a daily basis. Holy cow. Man, he he's trying to find balance. And, I mean, it's – and you're so much further down the road. And, man, I think that's – ATP, that's one of the greatest gifts you give is, like, you are – You are so relatable.
00:13:33
Speaker
You're so humble. And you're a champion of people. And at the same time, people look at you and they're like, man, you've done some incredible things. and And that gives you the platform. But man, it's it's the humility that makes you relatable.
00:13:46
Speaker
And so... Man, I think that the things you were just saying about your dad, I mean, you know, so we grow up with questions, questions we are we are trying to answer. And no matter how great our parents are, we're we're left, some of those questions are left unanswered. And it's and it's part of the gospel story that God gets to to come in and and help answer some of those. But man, it's a super apparent when you don't have a dad. I mean, it...
00:14:11
Speaker
The opportunity to say, you know, dad, am I ready? Dad, am i you know, am I good enough? I mean, those were all left answered. So you so you take those questions out to the world and you're hardworking, you're you're intelligent, and you took those to being an entrepreneur, starting a business.
00:14:30
Speaker
And you have weathered two, now three, you know, be incredible storms. mean, you started right before 2008. And eight then, you know, it all came from work now.
00:14:44
Speaker
Huh? Started in 2002. So post.com. Yeah. Then recession. Yeah. Of 08. Then pandemic. Yeah. and And then now. Whatever we're doing right now. Yeah. So you you weathered COVID, which seemed like it was it was the the biggest storm.
00:15:03
Speaker
But now you're dealing with just a the pandemic. you know, the the aftershock of inflation of, you know, you got price of foods going up, you got price of of labor going up and people are pulling back on spending because of the unknowns.
00:15:17
Speaker
totally What do you, what do you learning in the midst of this one? I mean, you've, you've been through two that, that seemed like they were, you know, had more headlines than what is right now.
00:15:28
Speaker
But this one is, is, you know, causing you to look inside at
Community Support and Overcoming Isolation
00:15:32
Speaker
some identity stuff. Like share just a little bit about that. Yeah, it's been interesting. I think, mean, history is a great teacher and sometimes I forget. Again, I think sometimes ignorance yeah youth and ignorance is bliss sometimes. just Maybe I cannot work it. But I think something something that's different about this one for me has been,
00:15:54
Speaker
i think what's been so frustrating has been, it doesn't feel like any challenges where you're having is because of our ability to execute or yeah do the craft or do the thing we do.
00:16:08
Speaker
in fact, i I feel like we do that really well and maybe even better than we did in years past, but there's external factors. so when you, when you're struggling because of things out of your control, then that, that has left me to wrestle with. Well,
00:16:28
Speaker
the reality the situation is the change. What has to change is how I show up, how I respond. And i think for, for a good part of that time,
00:16:42
Speaker
i kind of kept waiting and thinking things are going to get better or let me outwork it or, you know, And then eventually it's like, oh, man, maybe i maybe i've pat I'm past my prime. Maybe I lost my touch or I'm not good at what I do anymore. So tons of questions of like self-doubt, questions of, you know, maybe maybe maybe i maybe I'm not, i you know, the imposter syndrome stuff's like, here it is.
00:17:10
Speaker
Here it is. Yeah. and And so in the thick of it, I think the other thing is I'm i'm older now and there's probably, there feels like there's more at stake. I have more stuff. I have people I support. I support my mom. I have more team members.
00:17:32
Speaker
who have their own families now. They're not just young and single. They're married and have families. So the implication, i have investors, like the implications of this stuff is far reaching and it's it's it's wide. And so, and it's something I always thought about when I first started, which was, gosh, I need to do this when I'm young because if I'm older and I got a cushy corporate job, I'm going to be too gun shy. There's going to be too many commitments or reasons why I can't do it. And so,
00:18:00
Speaker
that's kind of strangely all come to fruition. Yeah. Cause there've been times I'm like, man, I don't know if we're going to make it. It's like been really, really challenging. And I've had to do some hard things. I've had to make cuts. I've had to readjust my lifestyle. I've had to, you know, and with that comes, it feels in many ways like failure and there's shame. There's how much of my identity is wrapped up in that. How much of my identity is wrapped up in my business. Like if it were to go away, who am I?
00:18:28
Speaker
What do I do? And like, I, you know, I, I call it the witching hour, 3am you wake up in a cold sweat. And like, honestly, that's when like, i feel like, you know, Satan's like in your head and just feeding lies, like whispering in your ear, like, okay.
00:18:44
Speaker
Yeah. Like if this all goes away, like, buddy, you better like get ready to go work at Costco or you better, you know, and then I, when I share this and here's a funny thing is when I actually say this out loud to people, the laughs, the, the, the almost diffusing of that thought yeah is, is incredible.
00:19:02
Speaker
Yeah. And that's been something I would say has been really powerful for me. It's like, I think the worst thing is when you're going through tough stuff is to isolate yourself. Yeah. That's the thing that I do. And something I think I've been thankful is like,
00:19:16
Speaker
there have been years in the past where you've just called me out of the blue and been like, how are you doing? I'm like, I'm good, man. You're like, no, no, no. Hold on. ha How are you really doing? And then it's like disarming. And I can't, and I, we have such a relationship. I can't like, can't lie to you. yeah And I'm like, well, you got an hour. on a rough And then I'm like, and then it just all comes out.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah. and So when you, when you share in those groups, like, Hey, I'm going work at Costco. Are they laughing? Because. They think it's absurd that Terry Pham would work at Costco, or are they laughing because they have the exact same thoughts?
00:19:54
Speaker
I don't think it's that they think it's absurd that I'm going to work at Costco. They think it's absurd that I think so little of myself that one, and of them, that one that, and again, there's nothing went wrong with working at Costco. Like, don't get me wrong. like my mom and family, like, working at 7-Eleven.
00:20:10
Speaker
But it's just like, they're like, one, you, you know, you go, you're almost going back. There's like this catastrophizing that happens in your head. And it's like, that's great. I understand if they're like one, this isn't the only thing you're capable of doing.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah. Astros to, you know, you haven't even considered tapping into like your network and what's possible. And like, you know, and three, it's like, you know, we wouldn't let that happen to you. Meaning like we would figure out how, and so there's like a community people who would want to like prop me up and say like,
00:20:41
Speaker
And it's just foolish for you to like, think almost like think so little of yourself. And I don't say that to demean, like people are working Costco, but it's like, no, you don't have to just go and become an employee. Like you can go and build something else. Right. In fact, you know, you're capable of it.
00:20:56
Speaker
And, and, and like, you have so much value to add in these other areas. And it's like, but the secret is the the dirty secret is I don't believe that. Yeah. Right. That's, that's the scary part. It's like, Oh, I don't,
00:21:08
Speaker
i don't know, you know, I'm unemployable.
Finding Balance and Preventing Burnout
00:21:09
Speaker
I've been an entrepreneur for 23 years. Like i can go work at a Starbucks and sling coffee. I can go work in a retail environment. I, you know, that's kind of it in my mind.
00:21:21
Speaker
Yeah. And that's, that's the scary thing is that how easily I can kind of fall into those patterns. But yeah, I'm thankful I have men and friends and people in a community who love me and who just like say, Hey, stop believing those lies.
00:21:37
Speaker
Yeah. it's And that's what it is, man. it's We become trapped in the prison of our lives. And it's i mean i love the I love the verse.
00:21:48
Speaker
you know Paul says, for for freedom, Christ has set us free. Don't go back into slavery. And that's where we that's where we go in our minds. i mean, there's so many fascinating things about your story right now.
00:22:03
Speaker
The external factors. you know It's almost like we we walk outside and we think it's going to be sunny and it's rainy, and then we start questioning our identity. It's like, what? It has nothing to do with you.
00:22:16
Speaker
and man i can vouch. like You're one of the best leaders I've ever been around. mean You love people so well. You're so generous. your Your team members love working for you. You produce a i an incredible product. I'm not just saying that because you're my friend, but you know one time we had a reading bet and and you lost a year's worth of fat straws.
00:22:37
Speaker
I gained like 20 pounds that year because I couldn't stop. I mean, it is... You've got an incredible menu. i mean, hands down the best bubble tea in the country. And then also the the mochi donuts. i mean, it's like everything's fun.
00:22:52
Speaker
it hast a you know it has a It has a great atmosphere. It's it's not just a it's not just a drink. It's you know it's an experience. So all these things, if you were to just look at those, I mean, you're at the top of your game.
00:23:05
Speaker
And yet you're having some of the questions of, you know, am I going to make it? And then that goes into identity. And it's just, man, it's it's a spiral. And so those things keep us stuck. and they And they literally rob us of life. They rob us of seeing what's God doing in my day. Man, where can I find purpose? Where are the opportunities?
00:23:27
Speaker
So what do you do personally to get unstuck? Like, how do you find freedom in the midst of the storm of lies? i mean, the absurdity of, you know, it might go under tomorrow. i mean, like, It just, yeah it's amazing how that spirals so quickly.
00:23:43
Speaker
How do you, how do you find, how do you find freedom in those moments? Yeah, I think, I mean, that's a great question. And I think it's so counter in what I see.
00:23:54
Speaker
and again, it's, it's one thing I've learned is it's, If I was to be advising or counseling or helping out myself, like as a third party, i would have a very different approach, right?
00:24:10
Speaker
And i think one of the biggest things is I've learned is I can't unstuck myself. And and like I think that's something I've... And that's really hard to accept, especially when...
00:24:24
Speaker
you have that rugged individualist you've grown up in this place where like hey like i gotta figure things out i don't ask for help and there's like a pride that comes from that and like hey i've you know gotta dig it out of the dirt as they say right but every time i've done that i've been unsuccessful yeah like to truly for me to truly get unstuck starts with one just being honest with myself. Let's go.
00:24:52
Speaker
Like, where am I at? What's going on? Like, I'm stuck generally when I'm hiding. Yeah. Honestly, that's hiding. It's, it's, it's hiding. Like however you want to look at It's like hiding behind. I'm feeling ashamed or I'm hiding. Like, I don't want, I don't need anyone's help.
00:25:11
Speaker
It's pride, whatever I'm hiding from whatever it is. yeah, i'm I'm grateful that I have, again, people my life that I can be very be be be known be known that be fully known and fully loved, yeah that I can share my stuff and not feel judged or left-in or inadequate.
00:25:34
Speaker
And it's and that's that's typically where it starts, right? It starts with one, like knowing like, hey, I'm not i'm not well. And that's hard. I actually had the conversation with Bill's like, how do you know when you're not okay?
00:25:49
Speaker
Right? Because like, i don't I don't actually sometimes know that I'm not okay. And it's been forged out of, i think in some ways, it's served me well in life, a like resilience a grit of like not letting the ills of life you know overly affect me where
Burnout vs. Fatigue and the Role of Vulnerability
00:26:08
Speaker
it's like oh i can't get out of bed like i wouldn't even know if i was depressed if i was depressed like i don't even know that's why i've even asked like well what is depression like i never feel like i can't get out of bed i never feel like you know but for me it's like it may show up differently like hiding avoidance doom scrolling disengaging from people yeah
00:26:28
Speaker
only focusing on work or the task or whatever it is I needed to do. And so once I do that, once once I like realize I'm not in a good place, then it's like sharing. And so i mean, for me, I'm again, super grateful that I have a group of men in my my forum that we meet for half a day, once a month, and I can just share.
00:26:53
Speaker
and and and it's two things. In preparation, i have to fill out an update form and basically reflect on the last month. Right? Like journaling is a great addition to this, but it's almost like my friend Ryan says, focusing on the conversation I'm having with myself.
00:27:13
Speaker
Like, what's that language? Like, am I am i am i am i critical? mean, what is, I think Chandler always says it like, no one's meaner to you than you, right? And it's like, man, i'm I'm mean to myself. It's like, yeah I wouldn't talk to my kids that way, but like, you know, my wife that way, but why did i talk to myself that way? So that starts with that, reflecting.
00:27:32
Speaker
And like, what was honestly the most significant thing that's been, that's happened in the last 30 days? And it's in three buckets. My professional life, my family life.
00:27:43
Speaker
And here, here's the thing, my personal life. And when I first started doing this, I struggled with personal because so much of my identity was wrapped up in Terry at Fat Straws or Terry being a husband of Jen or Terry being, you know, the father my kids. Yeah. But it's like, what about Terry separate from all those things? Yeah.
00:28:01
Speaker
Right. Just me. And i I think for the first year, I didn't know even how to like, have language around that. And so once I, once I started figuring out like, okay, let me reflect.
00:28:13
Speaker
And then to have a place to go and share it, they reflect back what I'm saying. And it's almost like they helped me debunk the lies.
00:28:23
Speaker
And then they also like have some accountability and say, Hey, like, this is a recurring thing. Like, I think you're hiding again, or you're running, or you're like, yeah know, you're avoiding it.
00:28:35
Speaker
You've done that for me. I think I've seen it on trail, you know? And so I think there's so many men walking around, men and women that I, you know, I just say men specifically, like I see it all the time in the community that are just quietly struggling, you know, and they don't, cause they don't have that.
00:28:54
Speaker
They don't have a, what does Chandler call it? A team, a King's table. Right. Men who can just, you can just share your stuff with. Yeah. So for me, getting unstuck starts with like,
00:29:05
Speaker
opposite of being vulnerable, sharing my stuff fully and having a group of people that I can trust and then having them reflect back to me. But then like doing something actionable, you know, like my friend Alex always says, action is the antidote to fear.
00:29:24
Speaker
So they've seen me in like, same thing, like in the last few years when I've been worried or fearful to business or like, well, Hey, you can't control this. Like what's the action you can take? Yeah. Like one thing, you know, just break it apart slowly. And it's like amazing the momentum that you can get from that. It's like taking on the hard thing, do the hard thing. And then the the things that seem so insurmountable to me afterwards, each one subsequent to that becomes much, much easier.
00:29:52
Speaker
Yeah. Man, TP, that's rich. Hey, I can tell you, Honestly, i mean, just to encourage you, you're the you're the best version of yourself right now you've ever been.
00:30:03
Speaker
Like you, I mean, I've known you for 15 years, something like that. We've worked alongside of each other. i mean, I've been on the receiving end of your product evangelism more times than I can count.
00:30:17
Speaker
And man, I can tell you just the way that you reflect on yourself right now is just, it's in a whole different league and man, you're wiser. You're more thoughtful. I have no doubt you are a better husband and father right now than you've ever been.
00:30:34
Speaker
And I know that oftentimes our, our, our burrs are rubbed off through trials and trials are never fun, but man, it just, it refines us. And it's like, Man, that's the way God's designed it. It's like marriage. It's hard for a reason. Kids, they're hard for a reason.
00:30:49
Speaker
i mean, that's where Paul talks about embracing the struggles because, man, they they they help us shed the things that are not of him. And so I just just want to encourage you. Not not not saying that because we're on a recording right now. I'm saying that cause I love you. yeah Yeah, I love it, man. I love you too, I see so much wisdom in you.
00:31:06
Speaker
I've always said like you're you're a great coach, but I think you're you're becoming even more more valuable as a friend and a coach than you've ever been. Thanks.
00:31:17
Speaker
And so you've talked a couple times about this concept of like the shadow self or – you know Even this idea of over-twerking our gifts where we know we're good at something.
00:31:35
Speaker
And so when times get tough, man, we just we go all in on that. and And sure, a lot of it comes out of our childhood. A lot of it comes out of if that's what we were affirmed on, that's where we build our identity.
00:31:45
Speaker
But... You've also talked about you know just the simplicity of like being real. Man, what's the first step to coming out of you know hiding? It's like just being honest. that that that is That is so much harder than what we give it credit for. but So you know if if we run from our strengths, then we're not we're not living out who we've been designed to be.
00:32:07
Speaker
But if we if we put all of our chips down on them, then there's the shadow side of like, that's where we're finding our identity. And so it is this this dance in and out.
00:32:20
Speaker
How do you navigate that? I mean, how do you find, oh today I'm working my tail off because, man, I'm joyful and I really just want to work hard and I've got energy, praise God, versus tomorrow you wake up and you're working in because, oh man, you want somebody to say, oh, that's Terry Pham. He's the Fat Straws guy because that's where you find your identity. I mean, how do you personally – unravel that to figure out when you're operating out of the good, the gold side, the noble side, and when are you operating out of the shadow side? Oof, man, that's tough. I think I'm still working on that.
00:33:01
Speaker
i think, you know, i think a big part of that for me, at least the, is is it is more almost a lagging indicator is
00:33:14
Speaker
do i Am I experiencing burnout or am I experiencing fatigue? And that is usually like a telltale sign. If I'm burnt out, i'm I'm living in the shadow side because I'm i'm usually redlining.
00:33:28
Speaker
I'm working hard. I'm doing the things I think I'm good at. I'm achieving, getting results. Outcomes are falling into place. But if I'm burnt out and I'm not getting energy from it, then I'm i'm most likely operating a shadow. And if I'm So the difference to me, like fatigue is like the the analogy is like you, you, you lay some sod or you landscape your house and you are, you know, it's an all day deal and you're beat.
00:33:53
Speaker
But afterwards you look and you're like, man, that was a good days of work. And you look and you marvel and you, you appreciate like what you did. Burnout is like, there's not that reward. It's just, it's never ending and it's slow. It's a slow burn, but eventually just like,
00:34:08
Speaker
you know, and and that's where it's like, Oh, just dig in. I'll be more disciplined doing, doing the thing I need to do, even though i don't want to do it. And I can get you so far. But if if I find that I'm like running out of gas or I start getting short with people, or if there's like a low level, just kind of,
00:34:26
Speaker
frustration or low level annoyance with people that's usually the telltale sign that man i'm off and i need to i need to like pause i need to i need to probably like so either step away from what i'm doing or need to go talk to somebody and share what's really going on and like again i think i don't often know when i fall in those patterns so it takes my wife or even my kids to say you're grumpy you why are you You're upset. And then I'm like, no, I'm not. They're like, oh, yeah, you are.
00:35:01
Speaker
The way you drove home and like you're cleaning angrily. It's like, what is going on? It's like, oh. And then raise your voice. I'm not upset. Totally. And it's like, and that has happened before like fairly recently. Like you seem frustrated. You seem angry about something. i was like, oh.
00:35:18
Speaker
And then I have to stop. Yeah. And I have to think about it. And then I think the biggest thing is actually like coming clean with it too and saying, hey, kids, not just I'm sorry, but please forgive me for like, failed. You know, I fall down, but I thank you for showing me like, I'm off.
00:35:35
Speaker
And I'm sorry if I did anything or took it out on you guys, cause you didn't deserve it. Please forgive me. Yeah. And that's that's like healing for me and i hopefully for them as well. Instead of just like, hey, I'm sorry that But in the make an excuse, it's just been a rough few weeks or whatever.
00:35:53
Speaker
I'm sorry, but let me justify my actions. Yeah. And that's, that's something I've had to like, as, as I've gotten older too, just like and separating that out. But like, that's usually the telltale sign. Like yeah if I'm burnt out, if I'm edgy, because you know, one of my, the verse that I kind to live by is like Mark 10 45 is like for even the son of a man,
00:36:13
Speaker
came not to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom. And like, yeah I love serving. I love serving people. The shadow side of that is if I'm doing it, it's not coming from a place of joy. It's coming from a place of, I'm doing this for acceptance.
00:36:29
Speaker
I'm doing this for value. I'm doing this for, you know, cause I find my identity in it. And if I'm serving to the point where I'm burnt out, not fatigued, but burnt out, then I've crossed over the line.
00:36:44
Speaker
Yeah. And I've got to come back. and and And coming back is usually like just, I have to have some mal alone time. Yeah. I have to unplug from things. I got to get off my phone. and I get to, you know, and and just kind of get back. I got to get back in the, you know, if I'm not in the word or I'm not, I need to spend time with, just spend time with the Lord. And it's not like,
00:37:05
Speaker
I'm gonna spend time to learn something. I'm just gonna spend time and just delight in God's creation and his love for me. And like, and that's hard to do, right? Cause it can often feel like I'm just, you know, it's just like frantic and it's like slowing down is honestly probably the first step. Just like slow down, pause, just pause.
00:37:26
Speaker
And that's really, really hard for me to do at times, especially when things are challenging, right?
Spiritual Awakening and Personal Surrender
00:37:32
Speaker
Cause it feels like if I'm pausing, I'm not doing enough.
00:37:38
Speaker
And sometimes it's like counter, you know, like that's what one of the things I learned in coach. It's like three days are like no work. Yeah, nothing is play. Right.
00:37:48
Speaker
And in it's counter. The first thing they have us do is schedule your free days. How many do you want a year? And like book all your trips at the beginning of the year. Book all your time off.
00:38:00
Speaker
Because if you don't do those things, you don't recharge, re-energize, and that's when you're most creative. yeah And i think most often I avoid that because that feels guilty. Like, I need to be working harder.
00:38:14
Speaker
And you've seen me in social periods. And I think that's what's so great about going on trail. It's like a forced, I talked about with Tyler yesterday. He's like, man, I want to go again.
00:38:25
Speaker
I said, how come? He said, because I really enjoyed it last time. he' like, but I have a different lens of life now and I've experienced more. I think I'd appreciate it more if I was to go the second time.
00:38:40
Speaker
So I said, let's do it. Let's do it. Come on. Man, so we'll get to trail here in a sec, but I i don't want to miss what you said. I think that's think it's incredibly wise. I've never heard packaged that way, but burnout and fatigue.
00:38:55
Speaker
And think another – you said it at the end, but fatigue, you were you were reflecting of like, oh, I'm tired. My back's a little sore after you've stopped.
00:39:08
Speaker
So it's like fatigue is working hard for a season and then you're you're pausing but you're tired from it where burnout is like the candle keeps burning.
00:39:20
Speaker
Totally. It never stops. And that's where, man, i people always ask, like, how do you find balance? It seems like that's what the younger generation is looking for is the perfect balance life. And I'm like, man, balance bullcrap.
00:39:36
Speaker
Like there is there is no such thing as balance. Yeah, totally. Totally. Like, well, hey, I need to lay some sod. Well, I guess balance is I'll lay 30 minutes of sod a day. It's like, well, by the time you get to the end, it's going to be done.
00:39:49
Speaker
you know what mean? Tell anybody that's been super successful, whether that's business or professional athlete or really just an incredible parent. I mean, anything that they've done at the highest caliber, they don't have balance.
00:40:05
Speaker
They know things. they Life is in seasons. And seasons have a beginning and have an end. and And that's where, yeah it's like laying sod. It's a hard season. It may only last five hours, but holy cow, like your back is smoked and you're tired. And you look out over the lawn, you know, with a cold one in your hand while the sprinklers are going.
00:40:26
Speaker
And it's like, there's a satisfaction in the season where burnout is like, you just continue to see, oh my gosh, I got to go pull those weeds. Oh my gosh, I got to. And you realize I can't stop because, know,
00:40:38
Speaker
there is If somebody sees that imperfection, that's all they're going to notice, and that's my identity. It's perpetual. Yeah, it's like the snowstorm, blue, that or i or so or ice age.
00:40:49
Speaker
Absolutely. It's just kind of this... Never ending. There's no end in sight. And the thing is when there's no end in sight, you don't have, there's, there's no satisfaction, right? It's like, Oh, it's never ending.
00:41:01
Speaker
There's no light at the end tunnel. I just got to keep, keep going. Gapping the game. yeah You're always, you're always gapping It keeps you, it keeps you burned out.
00:41:12
Speaker
Yeah. All So let's, let's talk trail. Kaneho's peak.
00:41:19
Speaker
Hey, by the way, i mean, show them that this is this is classic. You got OG. Show them the OG hat right there. I mean, that is – it's got to be year two.
00:41:30
Speaker
And then right here, I mean, look it. Now we're turning the words upside down. you know, it's it's trendy. know I need to get one of those. What happened on Conejo's Peak?
00:41:43
Speaker
Oh, man.
00:41:47
Speaker
Transformation. Really. Really. i I get emotional when I want to think about it.
00:41:55
Speaker
I still remember probably two years, right? Because I was supposed to go the year before and didn't happen. She gave me grief over, which I love.
00:42:06
Speaker
So to to spend all this time, i think... why Like we we we used to get to spend time on Tuesdays. a moment You had Bible study at your house and then we'd come to the office, lunch, probably like two cases of seltzer later.
00:42:24
Speaker
and we would we would talk about family. We'd talk about business. We'd talk about life and faith and in recap. and And I remember being in a weird place in my faith at that time. Like grew up in the church.
00:42:38
Speaker
But to me, like, but at that young, you know, growing up, it was more like no one in my family went to church. I had some great people who who brought me to church. But to me, it felt more like do good things, be a good dude, and good things happen.
00:42:53
Speaker
It wasn't so much about my relationship with Christ. It was more about, you know, and that that was just on me, right? It's like, you know, I just... I can't say did anyone share the gospel with me, but I just, it was just about a way of life than it was about a relationship.
00:43:10
Speaker
Yeah. was about doing stuff. Came to Christ later, you know, in my twenties. And then, we were going to church. I had kind of a falling out with a, with a pastor, uh, in my early twenties, you know, we were very actively involved serving,
00:43:30
Speaker
And I think it kind of wrecked my faith a little bit. And then i got busy with fast trials. And then I just slowly drifted. And you life happens, right? And then I, you know, and it's almost like being away from the body.
00:43:44
Speaker
Also,
Summiting Conejo’s Peak: A Symbolic Journey
00:43:45
Speaker
there's whispers and I started of questioning. And then I had all these, i had all these thoughts, unresolved thoughts. And I thought they were really great. And I brought those to you on Tuesdays. I would ask you about, I'd ask you all the hard questions. We would even cover them Bible study. And I think after a while, it was like, what I loved about it, you're just like, yeah, I don't know.
00:44:07
Speaker
No, and and it was kind of like, but you it it was almost like, what do you need to resolve your doubt? Because if you can't answer that question, you're going to be in doubt forever, right? 2016, sign up.
00:44:20
Speaker
i sign up because didn't go the year before, go on trail. And I remember the first day, i mean, I was all in. I was all in, group from CFR, guys that I'd known for several years.
00:44:35
Speaker
First day we hike, and then you're like, all right, break for camp. We're here at camp. Go have some solo time. And i remember sitting solo for the first time, and I call it my Lieutenant Dan moment.
00:44:49
Speaker
And so there's a Forrest Gump scene, Lieutenant Dan, after, you know, he's he's mad at God and he's sitting in the crow's nest and there's a storm that's raging. And he's like you're ne he's like, God, you're never going to sink this ship. it's It's fine. It's me and you. It's a showdown.
00:45:05
Speaker
And obviously the boat doesn't crash and Bubba got shrimp and all this other stuff. So that's my moment. I'm like, all right, God, i've been I've been wrestling with you. I've been meeting with Todd on Tuesdays. And I said yes to this and I'm here.
00:45:20
Speaker
You need to show up. was like, come on. Yeah. And he did. And I i broke down.
00:45:30
Speaker
And and
00:45:37
Speaker
and it was like, hey. He's like, hey.
00:45:41
Speaker
You had tough stuff happen to you as a kid. you You didn't grow up with a dad. And you you've navigated life telling the story like it's not yours and that you're immune to it. Like you're in spite of it, you're okay.
00:45:59
Speaker
You turned out okay. Like, and... I think I just, he was like, but you're not okay. And yeah it's it's it's not okay that it happened, but it's it's okay. And like, it's like, I love you and you can let it go now.
00:46:16
Speaker
You don't have to carry this around anymore. And i remember just weeping. And then from that moment, the rest of the trip, I was just like, i surrendered to everything.
00:46:30
Speaker
I didn't care if we hiked all day. i didn't care if we stopped. I didn't care what we ate. I didn't care how, if I slept on an uncomfortable ground, whatever. didn't matter. i was just like, I'm all in on everything. Like I will go wherever you guys, you and Alex Snoop will lead us.
00:46:46
Speaker
And then I remember, summiting, you know, that day. And we got up and it was like still dark. And I just hear this pitter patter on my tent. I'm like, oh, no. You know, and i didn't and I didn't know what to expect, which was also great.
00:46:59
Speaker
And we're hiking and guys are struggling. And we're like, oh. And then, you know, Jordan Matz was like, DP, you timed it perfectly. We're going to hit the summit right as the sun's peaking. And we get there and it's like false peak. and That was the saddle.
00:47:13
Speaker
was like, no. And then it was like, I think we hit a couple of false peaks. And I remember thinking to myself in that moment, I remember thinking like, you know, if this was just me, i don't know if I'd go to the top.
00:47:27
Speaker
I think I'd settle for this and say, hey, this is good enough. But like those men pushed me to go all the way. And when I got up there, you gave me this big hug. ands like It was almost like the culmination of like two years of us spending Tuesdays together.
00:47:45
Speaker
e two years of just like and i'm just surrendering to like and it's like i knew i knew that i knew that i knew and i don't know if i ever knew that like to that depth in my life and it was just kind of like it was healing for me yeah and i knew i wanted to be different and i knew that man this is like i Again, isn't that the evangelist in me is like, I'm going to go tell as many people as I can about this.