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43. Transformation Through Love with Moe Natura
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In this week’s episode, we welcome our first returning guest, spiritual seeker Moe Natura. We get into what Moe has been up to since the last time we had him on and, man has he got some big news to share. The conversation evolves, as they often do, to discussing religion, the nature of self, transcending the ego, and much more.
Moe's Podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/show/3R27IefX2mUQRHBU4LSJxC
https://www.instagram.com/moenatura/
https://www.tiktok.com/@moenatura
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Music By Nathan Willis RIP
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Transcript
Introduction & Guest Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pursuit of Infinity. In this week's episode, we welcome our first returning guest, spiritual seeker, Mo Natra. We get into what Mo has been up to since the last time he had him on, and man has he got some big news to share. The conversation evolves, as they often do, to discussing religion, the nature of self, transcending the ego, and much more.
Podcast Promotion
00:00:24
Speaker
But before we get to it, for all things Pursuit of Infinity, please visit our website at pursuitofinfinity.com. We have all of our episodes there and links for everywhere you can follow us. So if you like what we do, head on over there and show us some support. We also really appreciate a follow or a sub as well as a five star rating and maybe even some kind words of encouragement in the form of a review. These things really help us to expand our reach and credibility, which is so much appreciated.
00:00:55
Speaker
If you're feeling exceptionally magnanimous, you can become a patron at patreon.com slash pursuit of infinity, where you can donate as little as $2 a month to support what we do. Check us out on YouTube. The channel is up. All of our episodes are there. So if you prefer some visuals and to put some faces to the names, subscribe and keep up with us. We're also on Instagram at pursuit of infinity pod. So give us a follow and reach out. Cause we'd love to hear from you.
00:01:20
Speaker
Again, this all can be accessed at pursuitofinfinity.com.
Unanticipated Life Changes
00:01:24
Speaker
And without further delay, thank you so much for listening and please help me to welcome back to the show, Mo Natra.
00:01:55
Speaker
Hey Mo, welcome back to the show man. Hey Josh, thanks for having me. So, uh, what you've been getting into lately? What's been going on with you? What's new? Well, a lot has been changing.
Islam & Spirituality
00:02:06
Speaker
Honestly, things that I have sort of anticipated and other things that I never thought would ever happen. Not that I had anything against them in specific, but the general
00:02:16
Speaker
way of going about such things like, for example, I am getting married very soon, which is something that I never thought I would actually do. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Yeah, it's been great. And I never thought I would actually get married. Not that I had anything against it, but simply I'm the kind of guy who's generally speaking not in a negative sense.
00:02:41
Speaker
It's hard to stick with and be close to because of the way I go about things and the things that I care about. I don't necessarily care about a lot of the things that should be somewhat necessary for marriage to get what I mean. And my kind of lifestyle can be somewhat
00:03:03
Speaker
difficult for a lot of people to understand and deal with, but somehow she is fine with it and she can understand. And if anything, she kind of admires it as well, even though we actually have
00:03:19
Speaker
very different backgrounds, you could say, in terms of major things. Like for example, she is a Muslim in the usual sense of the word. And that's something that I thought it would be almost impossible to happen given my perspective on life and how things are. But recently I came to understand and really feel how that I've always been a Muslim
00:03:50
Speaker
that there is nothing actually but Islam and not in the usual sense of the word Islam. It became a much more profound and fundamental truth because it's actually said in the Quran itself that there has been but one religion all along and
00:04:12
Speaker
And I thought like, okay, so that's kind of weird because Islam also believes in Christianity, Judaism, and other religions and prophets. So how come God says, or Allah, that there has been but one religion?
Islam & Taoism
00:04:26
Speaker
And if it had always been Islam, why there are Christianity and all sorts of different religions? And the more I looked into it and I thought about it, the more I realized that I was understanding that first
00:04:41
Speaker
in a very superficial way, as many Muslims and people tend to do. So I was equating and limiting the concept of Islam to Quran and the way that the Muslims go about their lives. But Islam is actually a much more broader term and concept, more than one can possibly imagine. So for example, when I was a kid,
00:05:10
Speaker
I used to believe in the typical sense of the word and the religion. And then at some point I was told that everything in the entire existence, all living things, even the so-called non-living like mountains and rocks and so forth.
00:05:27
Speaker
They're all Muslims. And I was like, okay, that's weird. I have cats and I never see the cat praying. I never see it reading the Quran. It doesn't even talk. So when you think about the concept of Islam in the limited sense of the word, in the usual sense, you would come to two conclusions. It's either that the teaching, the verse in itself is false.
00:05:52
Speaker
or that my understanding of the verse is wrong, right? So one of the two. And given the metaphysical assumption that God's words are never incorrect, so it must be my limited understanding or my false understanding of the word is what's making me confused about
Prayer & Connection
00:06:17
Speaker
it.
00:06:17
Speaker
And then I came to realize that Islam actually means it comes from the word is the slam, meaning submission, which is very similar to the concept of the flow and Taoism, for example, in China. And then it was like, okay, so how is the cat a Muslim by default?
00:06:37
Speaker
in that sense and I was like okay it just submits and it goes along with whatever urges it gets it just goes along with it it just acts upon it and I was like okay so how am I Muslim in that sense I was like that's pretty much what I do
00:06:55
Speaker
Do not resist some thoughts and emotions. And even those that I resist, even the resistance in itself is an act of submission because the resistance is a thought slash emotion in of itself, and I'm submitting to it. So even when I try to control things, that's me submitting to the desire.
00:07:17
Speaker
of resisting the thing and not accepting it and wanting to control it. And thus I can't help but be a Muslim by default. And so are all things. And ever since that realization dawned on me, I've been looking at things very differently. And I started seeing how similar I actually am to a lot of people, including that girl, for example,
00:07:46
Speaker
I'm having a hard time talking about this topic in itself because it's actually very new to me and I'm not very used to it. And it's in all honesty, it's quite scary to change that much. I never thought that would do these things. I never thought that would be that kind of a person. In some sense, I had a layer of identity that I was not aware of because it's extremely subtle. You only notice it.
00:08:15
Speaker
when you're actually in the situation, when you're actually confronted with it and then, okay, so I see it in a metaphorical, metaphorical way as a, like, for example, as the universe is going like, okay, so you believe that you're everything and that you're all things and you don't really have anything that you're attached to a way of living and there is just, you're just going along with it.
00:08:42
Speaker
And that you don't have a specific identity. So can you actually act upon that in an extreme sense, in a threatening sense? And I thought, yes. And, uh, but then when it comes to the physical embodiment, it gets really difficult. So you're in the situation and now you're supposed to do things.
00:09:05
Speaker
that you were kind of against and never thought, that's not me. That's not something that I would do. And then you suddenly feel drawn to do so and you don't understand why. And you can't help, but keep on desiring. Like, trust me, I've tried a lot of times to just talk myself out of it. And it's like, and I don't know about marriage, you know.
00:09:31
Speaker
And I don't know if we're compatible, all of these things.
Self-Actualization & Love
00:09:35
Speaker
And I was like, but I still feel it. Like I'm conceptualizing, I'm intellectualizing the whole thing. I'm trying to rationalize my way out of the situation. But in all honesty, I still feel drawn to that girl and I feel like going through that experience. And in order to do so, a lot has to change along the way.
00:10:00
Speaker
And you need to come into acceptance and see the truth in what she does and how she is and be supportive of it, even though you don't necessarily see things in the exact way that she does, but you just need to actually act upon it. Can you actually behave in that way? And not like for a day or two, you know?
00:10:28
Speaker
supposedly for a lifetime. Is that something you're actually capable of doing? And my God, it's really bad. It's really scary. And at that point, I started to become aware of the layers of identity that I used to have.
00:10:47
Speaker
One of which was basically to not have an identity, to not have a specific way of being. And in a very subtle way, that is an identity. And then it really shows up when you're in this situation. So you could say that's the biggest thing that has been happening recently.
00:11:07
Speaker
Yeah, because you can be attached to any kind of identity. You can be attached to a mode of spirituality to a degree where it actually hinders your ability to grow. Um, and it's interesting how love can really bring you to a place where you're learning about yourself in a way that you never thought you could.
00:11:29
Speaker
And it brings to mind, again, you were sort of mentioning the Tao, and I think Lao Tzu, I think the first line of the Tao is something along the lines of the Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao.
00:11:43
Speaker
And it seems you have to quiet yourself and quiet the ego monkey mind that's trying to attach yourself to other things and trying to deny yourself of your direct experience in which you're feeling. And it's intriguing to me that love can really bring that out of somebody in a way that transforms them. And I assume that she really helped you to realize your deep and true connection to Islam. In what ways do you think she helped you to realize that?
00:12:15
Speaker
Well, she's actually quite religious in some sense, not in a hyper strict and annoying way, you know, but she follows the religion to the tea, as they say, and she prays five times a day and she enjoys doing so. And just by simply witnessing her and doing all of these things.
00:12:40
Speaker
It just helped me directly and indirectly understand and reflect on a lot of things. Like for example, I used to believe that there is truth in everything. There must be some fundamental truth to it. And then she's praying and she's going about the Muslim tradition and religion in the usual sense. And I'm like, okay.
00:13:08
Speaker
Where is the truth in this? How does this connect to what I came to understand about the metaphysical fundamental layer of existence? And is that actually God's words, these kinds of things? And I came to realize that prayer
Diversity & Suffering in Spiritual Paths
00:13:26
Speaker
actually translates in Arabic to Salah, which comes from the word Salah, which means connection. And interestingly enough, in the Quran itself,
00:13:39
Speaker
like many other religions, the most important thing is always to pray. And yet the most important thing in the Quran, in Islam, is not mentioned how exactly to do it in the book. And I was like, that's interesting. But I was no longer trying to think about it as like, aha, got you. You have a flaw in your book. I just thought about it in a more peaceful sense, you could say.
00:14:08
Speaker
And I was like, okay, so why is the most important thing in the religion in its main book, main reference in God's words? It's not taught how to exactly do it. And when I realized that.
00:14:23
Speaker
The word Salah, which means prayer, actually comes from the word Salah, which means connection. And it's like, it became ridiculous to ask, okay, how do I connect? Well, it depends. It depends on everything. It depends on the kind of environment you grew up in, the kind of person that you are and what you've been taught, and you constantly change. So the way you connect with other people in the simplest ways changes a lot. So there is no logical way to actually
00:14:52
Speaker
go in and be like, okay, so this is how you can connect with even just another human being. It's not possible to do so. You can give some tips, this and that, but you can't really hit the nail on its head when it comes to connections. And I was like, okay, so that makes sense. So why is there a specific way of
00:15:16
Speaker
prayer of connecting still in the Muslim culture. And it became just simply just a matter of discipline. Because if you do not follow a specific way of going about things, say like driving
00:15:38
Speaker
At first you're taught to hold the steering wheel with both hands and to pay attention just so that don't do anything else. And it's very strict.
00:15:49
Speaker
Because if you try to act cool, just use one hand and you're still learning how to drive, you will most likely fuck it up really badly, right? And you will bring harm upon yourself and other people in doing so. So it's best when you're starting off to follow a discipline where psychologically speaking as well, you have five times a day.
00:16:12
Speaker
where you actively engage into this activity and you do it in a very specific angle and you do very specific rituals beforehand like the Muslims have what they call the wudu which means that they wash specific parts of their body using water and all of this really sets you up in the mood to do so and the spiritual people are really no different like
00:16:43
Speaker
Some people have their meditation spot. Some people go outside in nature where they can do this. And it's like, is there anything really fundamentally special about that spot or that place in the world? And the answer is no, it's just it really helps. It makes things easier. So in some sense, you really cultivate.
00:17:06
Speaker
the state of being that you need to be in, in order to actually connect, slash pray, slash meditate. So I became very accepted to it and I became very encouraging of it to her. So for example, if we're living together and she's gonna miss out on the time of the prayer, I would wake her up or bring her attention to it. Hey, you forgot to pray, go pray. Because if she didn't do so,
00:17:37
Speaker
She would lose herself gradually. That's the thing, right? It's like somebody was like a spiritual person and they try to meditate at least once a day and they try to commit to this. Because if you don't really connect with yourself through whatever means, doing something artistically, making the painting, writing, journaling, going on a walk, sitting in nature, people have different ways of connecting, you know, sitting with families.
00:18:07
Speaker
You would lose yourself gradually and when you do so, you will end up harming yourself and other people in the process. So it's best to let the person be. And I experienced all of these fancy teachings in a direct sense, where I was put in the situation and I was reminded of all of these fancy teachings that I personally used to teach.
00:18:35
Speaker
And I embodied to a great extent, I believed, but it turned out there is more to it. So, yeah. Yeah, what this brings up for me is, as you were saying, it's like the Quran says that there is one true religion.
00:18:53
Speaker
And it's almost like these books and these spiritual practices, they point to the religion. They're trying to get you to realize what it is you need to do to get to the mode of enlightenment or understanding
00:19:09
Speaker
which never ends, but it comes incrementally. And it reminds me of something that Ram Dass said, and I know I bring him up way too much on this podcast, but he talked about methods of spirituality and how they self-destruct. And they're supposed to self-destruct because each
00:19:30
Speaker
each step on your spiritual path, whether it be studying with the guru or reading a specific book or understanding specific concepts within an ideology, eventually you'll realize that
00:19:45
Speaker
What you're attaching yourself to is a method. And in order to grow, you have to transcend that method. And for me, my method was, or still is, psychedelics. And at a certain point, you can't rely on a particular method to provide you with spiritual enlightenment or spiritual growth because there's so much more out there. And that's, I think, one thing you realize when you start to go down this path in any way, shape, or form is that
Identity & Change
00:20:14
Speaker
There's like an endless amount of methods and paths to take that point to the same thing. And I, and there's a metaphor I'm going to say that I bring this up all the time as well, that Ram Dass said. Um, and it was that it's like spirituality is a, is a very gigantic mountain. And all of us are standing around the base at a different particular spot. And we each take our own path up the mountain, but ultimately we're all heading in the same direction. And when we get to the top of the mountain.
00:20:44
Speaker
We're intermingling with Christians and Muslims and hippies and all kinds of other people. And we can't tell the difference between who took which path to get here, but we're all ending up in the same place. So that's, that's what really, uh, I was feeling into as you were, as you were speaking.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's actually amazing. I loved it so much. It really all boils down to the same direction. I actually have been thinking about
00:21:16
Speaker
Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, and how it's understood in terms of stages where you have the sexual desire's basic survival mode, and then at the very top you have self-actualization, where it's really understood in a limited sense of somebody, for example, reading books and meditating, these sort of things. But truth be told, came to realize that
00:21:44
Speaker
All of these layers are actually one layer, one fundamental layer. That layer is self-actualization. It's constant self-actualization. And it happens in very diverse ways. Like for example, for somebody who's living in the ghetto to self-actualize,
00:22:07
Speaker
is to be feared, is to be brutal and respected, to be the strongest physically. And to somebody who's having a more peaceful environment, you could say, that person can easily be seen as lost, deluded, confused, stupid, perhaps.
00:22:28
Speaker
But they're really fundamentally not that different. They're just expressing, expressing themselves differently. They're having different stories, but fundamentally it's the same path. It's the same essence and is constant self-actualization. And it doesn't look like a specific things.
00:22:46
Speaker
just like the different paths up to the mountain, the summit of the mountain. They may look radically different, but they lead fundamentally to the same destination, you could say. So I do believe that all things are fundamentally the same, just how we
00:23:09
Speaker
are the both of us are the same thing, but we're not the same person, right? It's just like the Trinity in Christianity.
00:23:20
Speaker
three persons, but the same God. And so you are and me are not psychologically and physically identical, but fundamentally the same. It just looks different on the surface. So in terms of motives, deep motives, everybody's doing the same thing. Yeah, for sure.
00:23:44
Speaker
Yeah, so something like the verse in the Quran where Allah says that there had been but one religion. Actually, one of the definitions of the word religion in Arabic is path. So it doesn't have necessarily to be understood in terms of religion, worship. No, it actually means path. That's one of the ways of understanding.
00:24:13
Speaker
So there is one fundamental path, but it's expressed and lived radically different. Yeah. So we speak about like the subtle differences in which path you decide to take or, you know, which ideology you decide to be part of or with which method you become attached to. But if you were like, say, hypothetically, like the spiritual teacher of the world,
00:24:40
Speaker
Because you know you see all these problems we you know there's so much suffering and so much violence and I mean there's a specific ideology that would say that you know this violence and this aggression and all this stuff we're going through is it's also part of like the Dow this is you know the good and the bad you know God said that
00:25:00
Speaker
You know, I create both heaven and hell, both good and evil. Um, and that's fundamentally like the way that I like to approach it. But if you were like, you know, the, the spiritual guru or the spiritual teacher of the world, what do you think we could teach the world fundamentally, maybe just one concept or even something that the world can unlearn, um, to head us in a direction that aligns us more with the summit of that mountain.
00:25:31
Speaker
Actually, interestingly enough, I recently just casually decided to make a TikTok video. And in that TikTok video, I even pinned it on top of my page and I label it as my most important teaching. And it basically summarizes to that the only thing
00:25:50
Speaker
that you ever needed and will ever need in terms of emotional and mental suffering is understanding. Because we're creatures of thought and creatures of thoughts need thoughts and rich thoughts in depth, understanding of things and not just some superficial self surface level stuff.
00:26:14
Speaker
You need in-depth. The superficiality is important because the surface exists. There is ground everywhere. But wherever you find yourself standing, you can always dig down. You don't have to, but you can. So things are both superficial, surface and deep. But when it comes to things that cause problems, bring suffering. These are the things where you need to dig.
00:26:38
Speaker
This is where you need to dig. But if you're walking fine, you don't need to dig. This is fine. So what people need really is to understand really in depth where they suffer. And once there is understanding, it gives birth to meaning.
00:26:58
Speaker
And the more you understand, the stronger the meaning you see in whatever that is happening. And so when you have the meaning, just like Nietzsche said, when you have the why, you can bear almost anyhow. And it all really boils down as Albert Camus said, there is really one question whether to commit suicide or to keep going every day, because
00:27:24
Speaker
You can see it in all sorts of ways. You can see that there is no reason to continue and you would be correct. And you can see that there is every reason to continue and you would also be correct. So in some sense, the person who decides that is you. And you need to understand your suffering, the source of your suffering. And when you do so, you will really
00:27:52
Speaker
Eventually, if you did it properly, you would come to realize that you were already okay, that everything is really okay, that there is nothing really that needs any fundamental fixing and that the so-called different people that we see as other that are different than us.
00:28:16
Speaker
Not only that there are us in a fundamental level, but there are identical to us on a psychological level when you see it from the deep motives, that they're not that different from us, that they're not actually un-people. The easiest way to have conflict and hatred is to un-people the people when you no longer see them as yourself.
00:28:44
Speaker
So what people need when they suffer with anything is to simply understand it. And when you're suffering and struggling with somebody else, you need to see the similarities between you and them.
00:29:00
Speaker
And once that happens, the love unfolds on its own. You don't need to worry about it. You don't need to cultivate it or do anything about it. It just happens as a natural consequence of seeing yourself in them and seeing them in yourself. This is the only practical way of loving thy neighbor as thyself. I love it. I love it.
00:29:25
Speaker
You bring up Nietzsche. Um, he also said that God is dead. Do you think that's what he was referring to? Like he was referring to the fact that like we're losing the why, like we're losing our fundamental like reason to be human.
00:29:40
Speaker
Probably because for a lot of people you can see God as their ideal version, their motive behind anything that they do. And to be honest, I think they're lying to themselves. I think most people, most religious people and even spiritual people don't give a damn about God or the universe.
00:30:05
Speaker
care about themselves and there is nothing wrong with that. The only thing that I would say is dangerous about this is when they don't know that they only just care about themselves and that there's just selfish and selfishness is not bad. It's just another term for self-love and it is inescapable and you're not supposed to transcend it
00:30:31
Speaker
Because if you try to stop being unselfish, you would be doing this for selfish reasons because it can be a pain in the ass to be selfish all the time. So you're trying to be less selfish. Why is that? Because you're not going to suffer as much. You're going to let go of some things. You're going to become more acceptant, things like that. And that benefits you. It indeed benefits other people, but it also benefits you.
00:30:56
Speaker
And the other reason that you can never be unselfish is that whatever that you do for the other person is but the same self in a different place. This is still you. So you're still selfish just over there. And simultaneously, paradoxically enough, you're always selfless.
00:31:17
Speaker
Because you don't really know the implications and the impacts that are going to last way after whatever that you've done. You don't know how it will impact everything else. And thus you don't know what's in it for you. And thus you won't even feel good about it because you're not even aware of it. And the other reason that you're fundamentally selfless
00:31:43
Speaker
is that the self is an illusion in the first place. So there is nobody to really make anything out of anything. You're just feeling as if there is the you that is benefiting out of this when it's really
00:32:03
Speaker
the selfless God or the selfless existence entirely just experiencing the illusion of being one separate self and an individual when it's really just the environment, the whole. So even if Nietzsche thought of it in terms of like people lost the Y, the reason to do any good
00:32:29
Speaker
I can't really tell for sure because only him can say that. Again, even if I'm Nietzsche in some sense, I'm not the same person. So I really can't tell for sure. But the way I understand it is yes, it's the same sense that people have lost their ideal versions, the things that they look up to you. Because if you thought about it, whatever religion, all the morals and
00:32:58
Speaker
The ideal ways that people behave is very similar to what they worship at the top. So in some sense, they're striving to the top. They're trying to self-actualize. And it's a constant process. And in, for example, Islam, it is a fundamental truth to be accepted that you will never reach the top.
00:33:20
Speaker
That whatever top that you're going to reach is not really the top top. It's just one of the tops that you're going to hit on your life, but you're never going to really hit it all and have it all figured out and you're not supposed to. Right. So yeah. Yeah. I love that you bring up self actualization because in, in my.
00:33:40
Speaker
In my little brain, the way I define spirituality is essentially self-actualization, discovering yourself, because I don't feel like you can look externally for the answers. I feel like you can be pointed toward the right direction by books and gurus and churches and things of that nature, but I think ultimately the way to true spirituality is looking within yourself and
00:34:05
Speaker
and looking within yourself with the desire to discover who you are and what you are. And even though you may not get any solid answers, well, you won't get any solid answers because there are none. It's a continuous endless samsara like a reincarnation like, uh, um, process to me, but.
00:34:29
Speaker
It seems that if you do go in that path with the direction motivated by
Nature of Self & Ego
00:34:35
Speaker
self understanding, finding out who you really are, what you are, I think it's going to take you down a path where you're going to find a lot of stops, um, where you will be able to progress spiritually in your life. Um, and it seems like you're getting to another one of those places now where, you know, you're climbing in a, you know, a whole new mountain. And, uh, and I think it's beautiful.
00:35:01
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. It's beautiful and it's scary, but it's scary in a beautiful way if it makes any sense. And I'm enjoying it and I'm just curious on what's going to happen next. And I'm curious on what is already happening now and what happened in the past. I'm just curious. I think that's my main why in life as a whole. I'm just interested. I don't care how
00:35:30
Speaker
I don't care how it works out and whatever that happens. Obviously I have some preferences, but I'm not hyper attached to them. And I'm not hyper detached from them either. I'm like fairly sincere. You could say like, I want to marry this girl, for example. Right. And from where I stand, I want that to happen forever.
00:35:53
Speaker
But I'm not hyper attached to that, but at the same time, if I'm hyper detached, I'm not going to work and I'm not going to invest in this at all, because it doesn't matter, right? So in general in my life, my approach of life, ever since I was a kid, even way before, I educated myself in any sense.
00:36:14
Speaker
I've always been like this so in some sense I don't really take if myself full credit for being like that because I kind of like started off like this for some reason.
00:36:26
Speaker
So for me, it just has been genuine interest in this thing that we're in and that we are. And I just want to see what's going to happen. And as it's happening, I want to reflect on why, if I can possibly. And after it's done, let's see if I can go back to this and see if there is more to see that I missed on. So that's usually how we'll go about it. That's my why.
00:36:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's like the perfect method because you're not attaching yourself too much to anything and you're allowing your path to flow and change as you're going down it. You're not attached to a certain route. And I think that is the perfect way to go about any kind of spiritual growth and any type of self-actualization really. Because again, when you become too attached to one thing, it doesn't allow you the space to grow.
00:37:26
Speaker
And it's just, it's so awesome to me that like, that love is the thing that can really break you free of all of the things that have been holding you down and shackling you both mentally and physically. So what about this girl and what about the love in general that you two share was so transformative to really make you change the way you think about reality.
00:37:50
Speaker
All honesty, as bumming as this may sound, I really don't know for sure. Like I have some speculations and all of that. And some of them may be correct to some extent or another. Some of them might be entirely false.
00:38:05
Speaker
But to be fair, I don't know anything in specific when it comes to this, just that I know that as soon as I saw her, her face looked extremely familiar. And one can easily go analyzing this situation, this experience, as in I must have seen her somewhere else as a rational, quote unquote, person, or as a spiritual person, again, quote unquote, would say that, oh, must have been past lives.
00:38:34
Speaker
I don't know. I just don't know. Maybe it could be this, it could be that, it could be both, it could be neither. I don't know. But I just know one thing and it was what I experienced at that moment. And it's just that her face looked oddly familiar. And then I spoke to her just out of curiosity and I asked her, do I know you? Have we met before? And she said, no.
00:38:57
Speaker
And then I asked, are you sure? And she said, yes, I'm pretty sure. I was like, okay, bye. You know, that's, that's it. That's all I had in my heart and intentions. And then she didn't let me go. She was curious, like, what the fuck are you doing? He just spoke to me just for this.
00:39:11
Speaker
And I explained that I don't really think that we're compatible in very fundamental sense, very fundamental pillars of how we go about life. And there is no need to pursue this any further. I was just curious about the face.
00:39:31
Speaker
And she found that to be very arrogant of me to assume such, you know, you don't even know me. So how dare you, you know, assume that we're not compatible. I was like, fair enough. Let's go with it. And then before you know it, it turned out I was wrong in some sense and getting married to her.
00:39:52
Speaker
But I was right in the sense that I was lazy because I was trying to take the easy way out. Like definitely the things that I thought about that made me assume that we're not compatible, they were there. But not in the sense that you couldn't do anything about it. And by default, I'm just a lazy person when it comes to many things. So I was kind of like trying to take the easy way out.
00:40:19
Speaker
and not struggle with these things, because as I said, I'm more generally focused on the metaphysical aspect of existence and one could say the spiritual aspect. But as Alan Watts put it in his book, The Meaning of Happiness, that the spiritual world is no different than the physical one, that there really
00:40:48
Speaker
Both terms are just ideas, descriptions, different viewpoints to the same thing. That thing is called life.
00:40:59
Speaker
It can be challenging and you don't have to let go of all of the struggles that you thought that, oh, I've transcended this. I've outgrown these things. I don't need to work on these things and struggle with these things. I have more important things. My life is busy enough and it really is. Even though most of the time I may look like just a guy who's sitting not doing anything, but I'm pretty busy, I believe so. So in many ways, I was just being lazy.
00:41:29
Speaker
And that's perfectly fine because that's just another way of expressing my self-love. Because why would you be lazy? Because I don't want to experience these things. Why? Because it's a pain in the ass, man. This is nice. So just staying in my comfort zone. I don't like demonizing this. But then I...
00:41:55
Speaker
I chose a different kind of self-love and it's to try to challenge myself in terms of my ideals.
00:42:05
Speaker
and really embodying them in the most radical ways that I can possibly imagine. Can you actually be very accepted to somebody like this? Can you actually see the truth in the things that other people do that seem to be very, very different than yours? Can you accept that? Can you support this? And not just in civilized and nice ways, like you do you kind of thing. No, actually support it, actually love it.
00:42:33
Speaker
and maybe even do it. Can you actually go pray like a Muslim does or like a Christian does? And when you actually get to it, it gets very humbling. It breaks a part of you. And that part is the identity that you had, my personality, who I am. And in some sense, I was that person
00:42:59
Speaker
But there is more to it. There is more to the story and there is more to me to become. So yeah. Yeah. And I think the only way to realize that there is more to you is to surrender to and break free from.
00:43:15
Speaker
your initial paradigms again that you're being attached to. Um, Steven Pressfield would call it like resistance. Like there's this, there's this ego resistance. That's like, for some reason you won't allow yourself to, to break free of what you want to, of what you think you want, what your ego is telling you that you want to do because your ego is
00:43:35
Speaker
It's gonna tell you what to do in terms of what's gonna keep you comfortable what's gonna help you to survive and what's gonna maintain the status quo of where you're currently at whether that be spiritually. Physically intellectually but you really you have to break that resistance and i. I try to do it for myself and i see i see in you and i and i see what you're doing in like.
00:43:59
Speaker
When I asked you in the beginning of this conversation what was new with you, I did not expect you to say that you were getting married and that you were going to be exploring the nature of Islam in a way that you've never had before. I really love it, man. I love the path that you're on right now.
00:44:22
Speaker
It's inspiring because when you see someone like surrendering to and breaking free of those things that they've been consistently telling themselves over and over, you know, that ego mind, it it's like.
00:44:36
Speaker
Again, it's inspiring to me because it's my path to, you know, I think it's everybody's path. As you said, it's like, it's about understanding and the fundamental understanding is the understanding of yourself and who you are. Um, and I think when you allow yourself to break free of your paradigms, you realize that like, you know, kind of back to where your original metaphysics were that you are everything and you are everyone.
00:45:00
Speaker
And there is a piece of you in everyone and there is a piece of everyone in you. And when you can realize that fundamentally, I think you can really appreciate any religion, any mode of spirituality, because they all have something very integral and special and unique to teach us.
00:45:19
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Although it's like one thing that kind of like saddens me, but at the same time, I'm fine with it. I have like a love-hate relationship with it. And it's how within the spiritual communities, they kind of like
00:45:39
Speaker
turn each other down. They tear each other down and they look upon each other. It's like, okay, you're deluded. You're correct. Why is that person correct? Because he says similar stuff like me. And why is that deluded? Because he doesn't think the same way. And I think my preference is to have my own way of seeing things.
00:46:05
Speaker
along with combining all the other ways of seeing the same thing and trying to find middle ground between all of these things. And I have a love-hate relationship to biases, right? I believe that without biases, without being biased, you can never stand your ground. You can never walk confidently at all.
00:46:36
Speaker
With too much bias or without the awareness that you're being biased, you get imprisoned and both are fine. Both results are fine. But my preference, my bias is not to be biased as much as I can. And when I am being biased, to be aware that I'm being biased. And that helps me break through a lot of limitations and dead ends.
00:47:05
Speaker
Like, for example, the spiritual people have this belief, for example, that you are everything, right? And because of the lack of the awareness, of the bias that we are, that we have, they say this, we are everything, I am everything. And then the next sentence is that,
00:47:30
Speaker
I'm not my thoughts. Like, hey, yo, you just said you're everything, right? Like, everything includes the thoughts. It includes the body. And it's like, I'm everything, but I'm not this name. I'm not this body. And that's perfectly fine.
00:47:47
Speaker
but it's not my perfectly fine. My perfectly fine is more about, okay, I must be biased. And if I'm aware of my biases and I don't see any upgrade from here, I can accept them as they are. And if I'm not aware of my biases, then there is nothing to be done.
00:48:07
Speaker
But always keep my eyes open, always keep my ears open for more because it will be taught, it will be shown one way or another, especially if whether you want to see it from the inside out, if you have the intention to continue to grow and to understand and have your eyes open up and thus the universe will do the same to you.
00:48:33
Speaker
Or you can see it from the outside in the sense that if your life circled in that direction as a cycle of creation, went in that direction of you becoming wiser and wiser, because you don't have to become wiser, but sometimes some cycles of creation, some lives go in that direction.
00:48:54
Speaker
So whatever way you see it, wherever angle that you see it, it really goes back to what you were saying earlier about the answers being within, not outside. And that is, I believe to be partially correct because I also believe that the very teaching that the answers are within that came from outside. So it's like, one may say like, yes, the guidance may come from outside.
00:49:23
Speaker
But the answers in of themselves may only be found on the inside. And I don't think that's untrue. But I think there is more to it. There is some nuance to it. Because when you say that on the inside, where is that? That's the thing that I think about. It's like, okay, the answers are within. Within what?
00:49:50
Speaker
within me, as in within my mind or my brain, but that's not me, right? Given the belief that I'm not the body. And thus from that way of looking at it, you can see it that if I'm still not the body, then that's not within me, that this is still outside. And if you see it from the way that all of it is me,
00:50:14
Speaker
then all of it is within me, whether you see it as outside or inside.
Ego & Spirituality
00:50:20
Speaker
And I like to keep my eyes and ears open to both ends, to what I usually, in the mainstream common way, call it the inside, and what I, in the mainstream sense, call it the outside, because it's going to come from both, one way or another, and it's going to show me more.
00:50:41
Speaker
Yeah, it brings to question what it even means to be inside or outside inside and outside are essentially just perspectives because inside goes forever and so does outside. And I think what most people associate like outside with is the ego and what people associate inside with is like the spirit or the soul.
00:51:02
Speaker
And it sort of makes me think about the whole concept of people aspiring to kill their ego, this whole notion that you have to destroy it in order to find out who you really are.
00:51:19
Speaker
I mean, I understand it. There's a lot of utility in having in sort of ego disillusion experience, because it sort of just like shuts off, like your, your default mode of consciousness so that you can understand that there's more out there than just that. But we still need our egos. Our, our ego is like the single most fundamental, important aspect of being who we are and being a human, because without your ego.
00:51:45
Speaker
or without the ego, God would not be able to experience itself. To me, that's what the ego is. It's a system of neural networks that God creates in order to experience itself. I guess that can mean
00:52:02
Speaker
It can come in all shapes and forms, whether it be animal consciousness, human consciousness. But I think the ego, it gets a bad rap because it's like our default mode of consciousness in this, uh, in like the Western world. Um, but we need it. We need our ego.
00:52:20
Speaker
It's exactly as you last said that the ego is our default mode or state of consciousness. This is how I, this is one of the ways that I see the ego, right? I see it as a state of consciousness, a state of experience, a specific kind of like almost static experience. But the thing about it is that when people try to kill their ego and transcend it,
00:52:47
Speaker
Who is the one doing this? Because ego really just means sense of self, right? Me. So I am trying to transcend me. It's like I'm trying to improve myself.
00:53:01
Speaker
Okay, how the fuck am I going to do this? Because how would me, the one who needs the improvement, improve myself? I need some other in some sense to help me improve myself. I can't just improve myself on my own. And so it's the same thing. It's like, okay, so how can the ego, how can I transcend me? It's like.
00:53:28
Speaker
a tongue trying to taste itself or a nose trying to smell itself. And it's like, okay, so what do I smell like? Whatever that you're going to smell is not you if you looked at it from that angle. But at the same time, the experience still remains. What people experience still happens. So my objection is on the way they understand it, they interpret it, but not to take the experience away.
00:53:55
Speaker
But the way I would describe that experience, that they describe as, oh, I died. How did you know that you died? You were still there, right? So you didn't die. So what dies is a shitload of identity and layers to the sense of self. So many layers. Some of them you're aware of. Some of them that you know that you're not aware of. And others you don't even know that you don't know them. And then when you have these experiences,
00:54:25
Speaker
And they start getting stripped away and you start feeling naked and naked, more vulnerable, more transparent. If it went as far as it can possibly go, there will always be someone witnessing it all happen. And that is you. And then people believe that, okay, so this is me. I was one with everything at that point, but basic math, that's two, that's not one.
00:54:57
Speaker
actual oneness. On the other hand, there is no one to experience the oneness. There is just no thing, nobody, no self whatsoever. It died off entirely. There is no experience and there is no experiencer.
00:55:13
Speaker
They both come and go together. But what people experience is a great deal of liberation, you could say. Not necessarily that these things are bad, but they indeed can bring a shitload of suffering. Sorry. So when somebody is suffering a lot and struggling a lot with so many things about themselves and life, and you go down that path,
00:55:38
Speaker
the experiences, it liberates them a lot and it transforms them, it transforms their relationship with themselves and thus their relationship with life. But through this happens a lot of misconception which gives birth to a whole new journey that comes after this and it's like
00:56:00
Speaker
Yeah, I'm consciousness. I'm the awareness. I'm not the body. I'm not this. And it is true because there is still the me and it's the formless me. It's literally nothing. It doesn't have any attributes whatsoever. If you stripped everything away from it, the body, the thoughts, everything, you would see it as the awareness. And even the awareness is the sense of self, the perceiver, and that the awareness, consciousness is an illusion. It's not actually real.
00:56:31
Speaker
And it is fundamentally true, but the whole thing is called Maya. The whole thing is an illusion, right? So if the whole thing is illusion and everything is consciousness, does everything, does consciousness is an illusion, does I am an illusion, right? I think there was a wise rabbi that I don't recall his name who said,
00:56:55
Speaker
If I am me because you are you, then I am not me and you are not you, because the only way for me to know me is through you being you, right? But me on my own, even in a physical sense, I can't even know how my own face looks like without some other reflecting it to me, a mirror, some lake, whatever. So in order to recognize and be able to tell that you are you, you need some other.
00:57:23
Speaker
And as long as you have this interdependent, co-existent relationship, then there is something fishy about this, not necessarily in negative sense, but it's not real in the strict sense of real that is like objectively there, whether you were around or not. No, that's not the case. And thus consciousness is all there is.
00:57:49
Speaker
You are all there is, but all there is is an illusion. And thus all of the other things are also an illusion. So that's the kind of like trip that people experience after the first trip. This is done to go to the next. And once this is done, there is a third and the fourth. I think one of the fundamental things that changed for me ever since my
00:58:18
Speaker
psychedelic trips is that I just need to shut up for a moment and just look around or look within. It doesn't matter. And then the whole thing feels like a trip that you're constantly tripping. You know, it's just sometimes you're so absorbed into it feels very real. Just the same way when you're watching a movie, scary movie in the theater and you get so absorbed in it, you actually get scared.
00:58:45
Speaker
When all of this is made up, all of this is not really happening. And that's part of it. That's not something to be transcended. The only way you would try to transcend fear is out of your fear. You're afraid to feel afraid. And thus the one who realizes this whole dynamic, this whole play,
00:59:09
Speaker
Understands that there are two kinds of games one where you forget That you've forgotten everything that you've learned and you're very absorbed and the other one where you remember Oh, I forgot I need to you know awaken myself. I was The ego took over and you have this kind of like oscillation between the two. It keeps going like this. I Love it, man. I love it mo such
00:59:39
Speaker
fruitful nuggets of knowledge for us to chew on here. I can always rely on you for that, man. I really appreciate you coming on the show again today and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors and I wish you the best of luck in your marriage, man. Thank you very much, Josh. It's been a real pleasure. I love being here and I'll see you soon. Talk to you later. Where can people find you real quick before you bounce?
01:00:04
Speaker
Well, there is my Instagram at Mo Natural and there's also my TikTok account under the same name. Yeah. All right. Till next time, brother. Till next time.
01:02:46
Speaker
you