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💚 "Talk to the minds and the hearts" - Jasmin Duregger from Greenpeace about fighting for the future
94 Plays1 year ago
Jasmin Duregger is a Climate and Energy Campaigner at Greenpeace, based in Vienna. She holds a Master's degree in Environmental and Sustainability Management and is fighting for a just and fossil free future.
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With FutureS, the Impact Marketing Studio, I help brands achieve their goals and sustainable growth. All without the usual hustle.
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Transcript
Introduction and the Importance of Product Focus
00:00:00
Speaker
When we talk about marketing, there are the four P's, right?
00:00:04
Speaker
One of them is product. And if you want to do something about sustainability, start with a product, not with a promotion. We see nowadays a lot of people start with promotion after four piece. So they say, oh, we have this product and this service. How can we tell people this product and service is already sustainable, the most sustainable product and service you can get so that they would buy it with us and not with others.
00:00:31
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Future Strategies. I'm your host, Florian Scheicher. You want your marketing to achieve goals and sustainable growth? You have come to the right place. In this podcast, I talk with marketing experts and share my own know-how on how to bring your marketing to the next level with a lot of inspiration and learnings, all without the usual hustle. So let's jump right into it.
Guest Introduction: Yasmin Duregar from Greenpeace
00:01:01
Speaker
So I have been very much looking forward to this episode where I will talk with Yasmin Duregar. She's a climate and energy campaigner at Greenpeace based in Vienna. She holds a master's degree in environmental and sustainability management and is fighting for a just and fossil free future. Welcome to the show Yasmin. Hello, welcome and I'm very happy to be here.
00:01:25
Speaker
So we just talked about that we know each other for a couple of years already, also from different work settings, but I will come to that later on because I have so many questions for you about your take on many things when it comes to sustainability and communications as well as marketing. But let's first start with your role. What do you do as a climate and energy campaigner?
00:01:48
Speaker
So I'm a climate and energy campaigner, and that means I run campaigns, so to say. A lot of people might know campaigns from political area, but we also run them in environmental space, so to say. So we try to achieve political goals in most of our campaigns. That means either that we get some laws or stricter bans on polluting and climate damaging materials or actions.
00:02:17
Speaker
Or we actually target companies to change what they are producing and how they are acting. So we run campaigns to basically change the world.
00:02:26
Speaker
Sounds big and ambitious and you currently work with Greenpeace.
From McDonald's to Greenpeace: Yasmin's Journey
00:02:30
Speaker
I did too in the past, but before that we both had different roles and we also worked together when I was marketing manager at McDonald's and you were in the creative advertising agency of the Burger Chain. What made you change your mind and put your energies to work for the complete opposite from McDonald's and NGO like Greenpeace is?
00:02:50
Speaker
So I was actually always interested in communications. I also hold bachelor degrees in communication management. And I was interested in how you would communicate about topics. So that's why I started out actually in advertising. But I also wanted to put my energy and also my skills to a good cause. And that's why I decided to do my master's degrees in sustainability and
00:03:15
Speaker
management and when I was finished with my degree I was looking for a job opportunity that would allow my skills and communications to also bring them into action for a better planet and that's how I got to bring this in the end. So your focus now is the climate crisis and as you mentioned shifting behaviors and getting us out of fossil fuels.
Greenpeace's Mission Against Fossil Fuels
00:03:38
Speaker
So what is the real role of Greenpeace in that aspect and what can an NGO really do?
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah, so we are fighting for, as we heard in the introduction, also for fossil fuel and the just future, because fossil fuels are actually causing the climate crisis. So 70% of the greenhouse gases are actually caused by burning fossil fuels. That means coal, oil and gas. And so when we managed to get out of fossil fuels, we already managed a big chunk of fighting the climate crisis.
00:04:09
Speaker
we as communities have different options to fight for the end of fossil fuels. So we are fighting on a global political level. So the COP28 is coming up in Dubai and the end of fossil fuels and to get that into text, into a treaty, so to say, is one of our core demands that we are bringing to the Emirates this year. So we want governments
00:04:32
Speaker
all around the world to agree on a phase out of fossil fuels. That is one option. But that is obviously not legal binding. So in the end of the day, it also counts what governments are doing. So for example, as in Austria, we also look at where we can get fossil fuels out of different sectors. So one very central piece is the renewable heating bill that is now
00:04:56
Speaker
being negotiated, it would actually put a stop to new gas and oil boilers and also an end to the existing gas and oil boilers by 2040, making sure they switch to renewable heating. So that is one option. And we can also then target not only the demand side,
00:05:17
Speaker
but also the supply side because fossil companies are still very influential and big and also trying to push that fossil fuels are still in the system. So we are also going to the big fossil fuel companies framing them as climate criminals and also trying to stop expansion plants. Wow. How does it feel to have a cop in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates? I think that's quite a paradox, isn't it?
00:05:45
Speaker
It is a paradox because Dubai is basically a city in the middle of a desert that is running on fossil fuels. The wealth of the area comes from fossil fuels. And we have actually a cop president that is also CEO of the Abu Dhabi National Oil and Gas Company.
00:06:03
Speaker
Yeah, I've heard that. So that is very strange. But we still want to give them a chance. In the end, the president should have a mutual role who actually should have, yeah, diplomatic kind of sense to bring everyone around the table to agree on something. And we see some language and talks that are actually positive. So you have seen the climate summit in New York, where there were a lot of talk about the end of fossil fuels.
00:06:30
Speaker
So very positive that we get some kind of signal out of COP28 to end it, but there are a lot of greenwashing tactics around this. So a lot of people say, yes, we have to invest in renewables, but they're not talking about the ending of fossil fuels. Or they talk about the end of fossil fuel emissions. That is an extra trick. So it's basically saying, oh, we can still burn oil as long as we
00:06:55
Speaker
capture the carbon that is produced by this. So it's carbon capture technology, but that is also very flawed in itself. But yeah, it's a strange situation to be in Dubai. But in the end, the COP is always changing from one area to another. And every area is allowed by itself to choose where it's going to be.
00:07:15
Speaker
And you also have to acknowledge that now the Asian area decided to bring forward the COP in Dubai and respect this decision as well. Are you going to be there in Dubai? It's not clear yet, but I'm definitely going to have very close look in the negotiations and also trying to campaign for a good outcome in COP 2018 in Dubai.
00:07:39
Speaker
So when it comes to getting real change done, who has the biggest lever when it comes to that?
Political and Corporate Influence over Consumer Choices
00:07:46
Speaker
Is it politics? Is it businesses? Is it consumers?
00:07:50
Speaker
I think we have a leverage everywhere, but we as Greenpeace do focus specifically on the political level and the companies. So we normally don't go to the role as consumer. We more see people as citizens, so to say, and their role and their political opinions and behaviors and how we actually have influence also on who gets to make the decision in a state.
00:08:18
Speaker
voters but we need action everywhere it's just sometimes very tricky when we ask people as consumers to change their behavior because we see that our system in a lot of ways is not meant for a free consumer choice so what I mean by that is when we say oh just don't go by car or just change your heating a lot of people can't do that you can't change your oil or gas boiler if you rent an apartment and
00:08:45
Speaker
you don't have any possibility to actually make this decision. So we more targeted screen piece the companies and the political level to actually build a system that is climate friendly and the climate friendly choice is also the obvious one, the cheapest one and the easiest one.
00:09:02
Speaker
And I think also when it comes to consumers, I think there was a lot of campaigning to make consumers feel more responsible for the climate crisis. I can still remember there was this campaign in the 2000s by Ogilvy and BP where they said, okay, let's look at the personal footprint of people.
00:09:23
Speaker
So shifting the responsibility away from them who are causing actual the real damage to, hey, Yasmin, what is your personal footprint? What's your take on that? Because it was a super successful campaign in the end.
00:09:38
Speaker
Yeah, our take is obviously very critical about this specific case. So a story that has been told a few times now and it actually, yeah. It's a basic question, right? What is there first? Is it the offer or is it the need? And can you really create a need by having an offer somewhere? So if you ask oil and gas companies, they say, oh, we produce oil and gas as long as people ask for it.
00:10:04
Speaker
So they say it's not our responsibility, we're just giving the people what they want. But that is actually very wrong when you see how much they are trapped in this fossil system, when you see that they don't really have a choice, and when there's no other office than the fossil office. So in the end, we see it very critical, we see what BP did in shifting the responsibility to the consumers, but we also see political leaders
00:10:30
Speaker
using this tactic to actually shift the responsibility to the consumers. So they don't want to do real laws that would actually ban something or something in greenhouse gas reductions. A lot of the times with awareness campaigns, this is the very easy fluffy thing to do. But when we look at the last 30 years, also in Austria, we see that those measures did not have any impact.
00:10:55
Speaker
quite the opposite of greenhouse gas emissions were still rising until very recently. So we actually need those kind of like hard policies to actually get things moving. So your main angle is influencing politics.
00:11:12
Speaker
And in order to do that, you need to shift people's behavior.
Communicating the Climate Crisis Effectively
00:11:16
Speaker
How do you communicate about that? Because you basically have a topic there that everyone should care about because it's a human crisis also, like we will feel the effects, but not a lot of people actually do care about it that much. How can you communicate that?
00:11:34
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, there's the basic need to tell the story about why the climate crisis is a problem and what is causing it. So we do a lot of these like very channel communications about it to raise the awareness. And we are in the lucky position that no longer we are the only ones to say.
00:11:50
Speaker
talking about this, but we have now a very broad movement from scientists to also some front-runner companies, NGOs, politicians that are talking about it. So that is very important, that it's in the minds of the people. And what I can see is that it's no longer really a debate of is climate change real or not.
00:12:11
Speaker
It's now more the beta of can we actually do about? So there are a lot of tactics saying, oh, we can't do anything. It's too late. Or we are just such a new country. We, you know, it doesn't matter what we're doing. So we now see more the fight about how much we are actually able to do while we come in and saying that it's important that everyone does something and the good role model actually fighting the climate crisis.
00:12:38
Speaker
But yeah, in the end of the day, we work a lot in campaigning with PR, if you will. So we do a lot of press work. And we agree this also try not only to target the minds, so to say, with facts and figures, but also the hearts. Yeah. So when we look back at the founding moments of Greenpeace,
00:13:01
Speaker
was when they documented what is actually happening out on the oceans with how whales get slaughtered and this directly hit in the hearts of the people seeing what's actually happening and in the end also led to a ban on commercial whaling after years of campaigning. So that is also a strategy to really go out there and document what's actually happening, what the climate crisis for example is already causing today in in harms.
00:13:28
Speaker
Do you think it's hard to actually excite people about real changes? I think if you communicate it right, and if you tell people we can actually win about these changes, I think it's pretty easy. But it's obviously a narrative that we have to fight, that everything gets just so much worse. Because when we talk about the climate crisis, we see a lot of politicians, for example, saying,
00:13:53
Speaker
Oh, but this will lead to decline in standards in living and they want to take something away from us. But if we look, for example, in traffic, in cars, this is a much debated topic. One third of the greenhouse gas emissions in Austria are caused by traffic and mobility. But for example, if we take our cars from the cities, what can we actually win? There's less noise, there's less pollution, there's more space for activities.
00:14:23
Speaker
safer for our kids to move around. So we can actually win a lot when we do these changes, not only having this very far away goal of stabilizing the climate, but we can actually also raise our quality of life.
00:14:39
Speaker
And I think there is something very good in there because pessimism is easy, but optimism is rather hard. So it takes a lot of skill and imagination and flexibility to come up with a future also that excites us.
00:14:55
Speaker
And then we say, okay, we want to live in that future because there are numerous studies showing whenever we tell people doomsday scenarios and when we say, okay, hope is lost, or I've also heard this, maybe the age of mankind is just over. I think it's super counterproductive because if people have a future goal or a vision that captivates them instead of hopelessness, then they really want to do something to
00:15:19
Speaker
get there. So you already touched a little bit about that on that, but how can a future that we can really achieve look like that people can look forward
Vision for Ecological and Social Justice
00:15:30
Speaker
to? What's the vision of you and Greenpeace on that?
00:15:33
Speaker
So a vision would be, it's very simply put, it works. It's a just and a healthy planet and a good future for everyone. That is what we are striving. And we see that it grows quite the opposite. We see greenhouse gases that are very remaining on a very high level. We see species and animals growing extinct every day. We also see that the gap between the rich and the poor gets bigger and bigger. So there are a lot of
00:15:58
Speaker
problems that we have to tackle all together. So this is I think where we also evolved as ecological organizations. It's no longer only about the animals and the planet and the plants, it's about also bringing in that social aspect of what is a good life and how can we provide a good life for everyone.
00:16:17
Speaker
I want to go a little bit deeper on that because a couple of months ago I had a chat with somebody from the Federation of the Austrian Industries, so IFAU in Austria, and I asked him what's the goal of the Austrian Industries Federation, and he said to have a good life for everybody.
00:16:37
Speaker
And now you saying, okay, we want to have a good and just life for everybody. I think we need to be rather precise on what the wordings are, because otherwise everybody has the same vision. Like everybody wants a just and good life for everybody, but people have different visions on what that actually means.
00:16:57
Speaker
Yeah, that is very true. And you have to like, this is the broad, this is still a vision. And then it's very true, you have to actually say what it means. And I'm very sure that it means something different for the Ephau than it means for Greenpeace. That is absolutely clear. And, you know, in every discussion,
00:17:16
Speaker
And here we are now. You come to the topic of what does a good life look like? And do we actually need more growth and more material wealth? Or can we actually make the shift to something else? Because we see that in the global north in Austria, we have a lot of stuff that is not really making us any more happy.
00:17:40
Speaker
Not everyone, of course, there are a lot of people still fighting to get on every day, but a lot of people still have a lot of stuff and they're not happy. So it's the question of, do we still need that much economic growth that is polluting the planet, that is, yeah, eating up the resources that we have, or is there another way? And our vision in Greenpeace is for every area different, but for example, for
00:18:08
Speaker
the mobility area, we already talked a bit about like getting the cars out, but then there's also the advantage of public transport that it's been most, when it's done cheap, it's also accessible for everyone. And it's also important that it's affordable and also with the help of the state so that everyone can move around climate-friendly and
00:18:32
Speaker
can afford it at the same time. When we look at the heating sector, this means that we isolate better our homes that can actually help increase the quality. I think everyone in Vienna who has been living in an older apartment knows the pain when it's really cold and coming through like the
00:18:51
Speaker
The area is at the window and at the doors and you can't compete as much as you want but it's never really getting warm. So having that retrofitting of buildings that are also founded by the state is a very important aspect and also switching the heatings to renewable ones. But obviously for a lot of different areas there are different visions.
00:19:12
Speaker
Yeah. And I read this in an article in the Washington Post by Rebecca Solnit, probably know her, and she wrote that, what if we imagined wealth consisting not of the money we stuff into our banks or the fossil fuel derived goods we pile up, but enjoy beauty, friendship, community, closeness to flourishing nature, to good food produced without the abuse of labor.
00:19:35
Speaker
And what if we were to think of wealth as security in our environments and societies and as confidence in a viable future? And I think there are more and more of these visions out there now, whereas like 10, 15 years ago, I think there was a lot of like, okay, we can't do it this way, we need to have less.
00:19:54
Speaker
And as you mentioned also, less is in terms of communications, a really complicated thing to get across because if you say, hey, you just have to consume less, nobody will say, yes, of course I would love to do that. And more a shift to something better, to have something with more meaning. So I think we need to get there. And switching now a little bit to the politics angle.
Using Extremist Actions to Shift Policies
00:20:19
Speaker
There is a big debate currently in the public also about the more extremist behavior of climate protesters like gluing themselves to streets and disturbing traffic or airplanes or attacking art. So I don't want to talk about whether this is right or wrong, but I think there is a very interesting aspect there, which is there's this model of the Overton window.
00:20:43
Speaker
So the Overton window is an approach to identifying ideas that define the spectrum of acceptability of governmental policies. So it says that politicians can only act within the acceptable range. So what politicians, parties, institutions, and also Greenpeace are trying to do is shifting the Overton window to allow policies being made within the new frame. So how do you actually do that? How does that work?
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very interesting discussion. And we also think about the overtone window a lot. So basically, you just something so radical that the less radical ideas suddenly became mainstream. We tried to do that as Greenpeace, but unfortunately, also, this is not only something that is happening on the left side of the spectrum, so to say, but also on the right side of the spectrum. So we also saw that happening with the migration
00:21:42
Speaker
crisis a few years ago that suddenly things that are not even allowed by human rights were possible to do. But yeah, we worked with that by actually proposing sometimes radical ideas and there's some
00:21:59
Speaker
What I think is sometimes quite sad actually is that our ideas seem quite radical when in reality they are what we need. When it comes, for example, with the climate crisis, what we need to stay within the 1.5 degree scenario and limit.
00:22:14
Speaker
and to make sure that the planet is still healthy in the future. So they sometimes seem quite radical, the ideas of putting down greenhouse gas emissions to zero, which is actually now also the vision of the Austrian government, but also scientists and everyone else is backing us up on that. This is what is necessary. So it's sometimes quite hard to still have an overturned window, because what we need is actually already quite radical. But radical is also a point of view. What we see in the past is that
00:22:43
Speaker
When there's political will to make the change, we can actually change a lot in very little time. We're missing still is the political will to actually fight the climate crisis. And we had a lot of declarations with the Paris agreement with the climate emergency in Austria. But what we see is that the actions don't really fit what is talked about. And that is also trying to point at that the actions need to that they need to walk the talk.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's a lot of talking right now, and I found this one study that has come to the conclusion that 90% of executives find sustainability to be important, 60% of companies incorporate sustainability into their strategy.
Integrating Sustainability into Business Strategy
00:23:25
Speaker
and only one quarter, 25% have sustainability incorporated into their business model. So my question would be then, we've talked about people, consumers, we've talked about politics, what can companies do and what can they use in their marketing?
00:23:44
Speaker
Because I was at this panel discussion this week about greenwashing and I think a lot of marketeers also people want to do something good. What is your suggestion to them? How can they do something good in marketing the solutions of their companies and what should they take away when it comes to sustainability communication?
00:24:05
Speaker
When we talk about marketing, and I also studied that, so everyone who's familiar with the topic knows that they're at a four piece, right? One of them is product. And if you want to do something about sustainability, start with a product, not with a promotion. That's, I think, the most important thing to understand because we see nowadays a lot of people start with promotion, four piece.
00:24:29
Speaker
So they say, oh, we have this product and this service. How can we tell people this product and service is already sustainable, the most sustainable product and service you can get so that they would buy it with us and not with others. So this is really the main part, changing the product. And this is also the hardest task. I won't argue that this is easy. If you have climate damaging product, let's see.
00:24:58
Speaker
classic example, you're an oil and gas company, you have to ditch oil and gas, like there's no way around. What we see is that they don't ditch oil and gas, they just make it a bit more climber friendly, which is saying like the cigarette is now a bit more healthy. And then we are at greenwashing. So it's not an easy task if you're in marketing in a company, but basically you have to take it up to the CEO and you have to talk about how you actually make your
00:25:25
Speaker
whole products and services sustainable and if you've done that task, if you've also laid out how you will go there, then I would say you're allowed to communicate on that issue but not before that.
00:25:37
Speaker
Yeah. And there's this saying in PR, one of the lecturers at the university also repeated it continuously, do good and talk about it. And I think that that very simply puts how it should be. First you do good and then you talk about it, not as it happens now, talking about it and seeing what we can actually do.
00:25:57
Speaker
Yes, that is very important. And also, I mean, sometimes we see that people, that companies would only do declarations, right? We will do something until 2030. But then they also again, don't really walk the talk or when it doesn't no longer fit into their goals, then maybe, you know, change what they were actually declaring to do. But yeah, it's, it's basically the
00:26:18
Speaker
I think what we really need from companies is real authentic and brave changes also. And there are some companies actually doing that. And I think it's also important to not play the game of black and white. Something is either super good or super bad, but we need to have the progress in between. And you also mentioned like each step in the right direction is a good step. Before I come to the final three questions.
00:26:44
Speaker
If you read a lot about climate crisis, about how fossil fuel industry is doing things now, what maybe some parties on the other side of the spectrum are doing, there is a lot of young people also feeling climate anxiety right now. How do you maintain hope and motivation with so much bad news out there?
00:27:09
Speaker
It's not always easy and it hits in waves. I have to say for me, it's a lot of the time also the job. So you don't reflect every day when you grow up what your job is and what you're actually doing, but you're functioning a lot of the time as well. But obviously it's hard to read through the nose that we get in constantly, for example, in boxes. And there's just a lot of negative things out there.
00:27:35
Speaker
But I think we need to try and we should never forget that the system that we have in place now, the way we are living, capitalism also is something that we as humans invented and it's not even that old. So it is this this track that we are on that we're so much polluting and growing and demanding so much of the planet is actually a very recent thing that we are seeing. Yeah. So we've done this so we can also change it.
00:28:05
Speaker
not something that is you know like a disaster that has been brought upon us from somewhere we are actually causing it and that also gives us this attitude that we can change it as humanity and no one will in the end know how we can change it or what will be
00:28:22
Speaker
perfect idea or strategy to do it. So I think you just have to try a lot. And even if the odds are not the best ones, the more people who try out different things, the higher the chances that we can actually turn the ship around.
00:28:37
Speaker
And I always like to say, you know, no one actually came up with this great campaign idea of, okay, we set one girl in front of the Swedish parliament, this will cause a global climate movement. No, but one person did something and it actually sparked something in a lot of other people. And I think you can just try out a lot of different stuff wherever you're working in and see what will work out.
00:29:00
Speaker
Thank you. So moving on to the final three questions now. What is good marketing for you in three words?
Crafting Impactful Marketing Strategies
00:29:10
Speaker
So for me, it's my job, I do not really do so much marketing, I do more campaigning, but there are some parallels, I would say. As we've talked before, I think it's very important to not only talk to the mind, but also talk to the hearts. So you can really get people moving on an emotional level. And
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah, get them to agree on your ideas, how the future can look like. Then I think that is also a tricky one, especially in campaigning. You have to know what your goal is. That is in marketing sometimes more easy because your goal is basically to sell a product or a service. And in campaigning, it's more complicated because you have to really have an idea, a theory of how you would bring around change.
00:29:56
Speaker
And then see what your goal is. So to take an example, if you want people to move to more climate-friendly transport, there are multiple options and goals you could set yourself. So I actually targeted the government to make a ban on cars, for example.
00:30:13
Speaker
you targeting buses and train companies to have better connections. So it's sometimes a really long discussion also within Greenpeace, what is our goal actually and how we can actually bring about change. So to be clear about your goal is very important in campaigning.
00:30:31
Speaker
And then I think in campaigning more, but also marketing, it's then a combination of good preparation, but also good opportunity. So we can, you know, campaign a lot around a topic and no one seems to be interesting. And then suddenly something is changing in the world outside and the topic is suddenly on the agenda. So for example, it's the tragic example, but we were campaigning a lot around nuclear
00:30:57
Speaker
power in Germany and then there was Fukushima and suddenly like this good preparation on the campaign with this external opportunity to actually showcase how bad nuclear power is led to the end of nuclear power in Germany as a political decision. So these will be my three main points. Great. What's the future of marketing or to put it differently, what's the future you want from marketing?
00:31:26
Speaker
I think there are a lot of very creative people in marketing and I would hope the future of that area and that sector is also focusing more on product and how we can change product and services to be climate friendly.
00:31:41
Speaker
and then also be able to communicate about it. So I think that's a major task and to me be more proactive on it and not only be the last one in line to them just to get to communicate and advertise stuff will be an important shift in the industry.
00:31:57
Speaker
And I think that's a very interesting point also that you made here, because there is still a window of opportunity when companies and their marketing can claim a space as a front runner when it comes to sustainability and climate friendly solutions. But in a couple of years, there will be a regulation and everybody will have to abide by it.
00:32:17
Speaker
So the space will already be claimed. So I think that's an interesting spot right now. And there are some companies looking into that and others I think are very hesitant. And in the Austrian saying also, they would say like, OK, let's see what happens. Yeah, that's a classic.
00:32:32
Speaker
But yeah, an idea of what would be better than the competition is when you already now have a look at how you're going to decline your CO2 emissions. So we know that the CO2 price is rising, so we'll actually also have a cost benefit for companies if they try and think about how to get the carbon footprint lowered within their products. All right, last question. What book have you read recently that you want to recommend here?
00:33:01
Speaker
So I recently read a book from Leah Ippi. It's called Free. And she's a woman who grew up in Albania under the communist regime and was also there in her teenage years when this regime changed to another system, mainly capitalism. And she actually has witnessed this all and has also a very interesting point of view on that. So it's not necessarily communism was bad, capitalism saved us.
00:33:29
Speaker
but she more has a look on what was global was bad in both of the systems and how the system change actually occurred. And I think it's very interesting to see, you know, this is something in Albania since that, like 20, 30 years ago, they completely changed their country. It was before called North Korea.
00:33:49
Speaker
Europe actually because they were very isolated from the rest of the world. They had no imports, no exports, so they didn't even know how bananas would look like until 1990. So it's actually quite interesting to think about how much can actually change in a very little time and that we are actually quite flexible as humans to adapt to new system and think of new futures.
00:34:14
Speaker
That being said, Albania still fights a lot of different struggles, but it is in quite a good way. I can at least say that because I also read the book when I was in Albania on my holidays and I found it very interesting. Thanks for sharing. So Yasmin, this has been such a great conversation. I really enjoyed listening to your calm and hopeful expertise and perspectives. So thank you very much for being here today.
00:34:42
Speaker
Thank you for the invite. I also found it a very fruitful conversation. See you next time. See you around. And that's it for today's episode. Thank you for listening. And now I have a question for you. Are you curious how your marketing can achieve sustainable growth? Then I have some simple and exciting options for you. First, this is exactly what I do for my clients. I help them build their future strategy with workshops and sparring sessions.
00:35:12
Speaker
I also have a very simple entry offer for founders and aspiring marketing experts, the Simple and Sustainable Marketing Academy, with a ridiculously cheap entry ticket price, because I love sharing what I've learned. Lastly, if you enjoy reading, check out my newsletter, where I write about marketing, strategies and sustainability, for over a thousand bright and curious minds.
00:35:37
Speaker
you can find all the info in the show notes. And if you have any feedback on this episode, I'd love to hear it. Please give me a rating wherever you listen, if you like it, or reach out to me directly. So until next time on Future Strategies.