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"WagnerWave" ACN Pod 110
73 Plays1 year ago
Ffion joins the boys to relive an incredible league debut for Wagner at Deepdale on Saturday. There's the preview of the Coventry game and some listener questions thrown in as always.
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Transcript
Introduction & Match Recap
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Long Come Knowledge Podcast, a fortifying foray into the fortunes of the football team that just won 4-0. Fion and Pont are with me to talk about a stonking start on Saturday. How was deep down at the weekend, Fion?
00:00:38
Speaker
It was good. Yeah I have to say when I was at Luton on Boxing Day I'd sort of made a pact then that I wouldn't go again until Dean Smith was gone and then he was so I bought my ticket for Preston and yeah I was hoping to see an improvement based on him having had a week on the training ground and all those pictures of them
Team Performance Improvements
00:01:06
Speaker
training in the dark which which felt like something quite exciting floodlit training double sessions but I was still kind of I wasn't I wasn't expecting to us to have made quite such a change in that time I suppose we do have kind of have to bear in mind that Preston's homeform
00:01:30
Speaker
in particular is very bad and their fans were getting pretty I wouldn't say mutinous but they were pretty disgruntled particularly when we went 3-0 up after half an hour or whatever it was so yeah I think we do kind of have to keep our feet on the ground that it was only one game but
00:01:48
Speaker
I just saw so much improvement in a lot of areas of the pitch. The players seemed happier. The intensity was much better, the number of shots, packing the box with players. I mean, yeah, everyone's seen the highlights, everyone's seen the game. Yeah, it was just like a different team, really. So, yeah, it was a very good day
Impact of Fans' Reactions
00:02:17
Speaker
out.
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah, on that point, we said on the unveiling of Wagner Pod that one of the things we wanted to see was either people complaining about the training regime or, you know, early on in this week that we just had leading up to Preston, something about having them hopping up mouse hold or some kind of training thing. And we got that, which is great. And to your point,
00:02:43
Speaker
The reason I'm not too worried about it only being one game, and yes Preston, I mean the boos were, I was following on the radio, and the boos were drowning out Gorham after the third goal. I mean they were cross, which is great. And I think that feeds, that's a prime example, we talked about boos not long ago on the podcast, obviously with the Smith
Tactical Changes Under Wagner
00:03:05
Speaker
era,
00:03:05
Speaker
I really think boos feed the opposition because there's nothing more funny, especially opposition fans, nothing more funny than the home fans turning because you think, oh, this is, you know, that's got to be so hard for them to play playing. But the reason I'm not so worried about it being just a one off thing is
00:03:22
Speaker
because it to your point field there are so many areas of the pitch where we were lacking on the Smith and they seem to have been and not just one off it wasn't like a lucky break it wasn't oh a couple of times Hernandez did this or a couple of times we loaded the box we
00:03:37
Speaker
We constantly had seven yellow shirts in the box. We constantly were doubling up in areas and having wingers all of a sudden finding themselves in the middle of the attacking third. And it happened so often that you thought that cannot just be the way Preston are letting us play. That can't just be luck. There's clearly some shape and some system. And I think to get that much in the first game punt, after only a few sessions or double sessions, you've got to take your hat off to him.
00:04:07
Speaker
Yeah, and it was incredible that actually we've got some identity already. So the fact that we lacked identity for the best part of 13 months or however long Dean Smith's tenure was, was the main bugbear of most Norwich fans, wasn't it? It was just the fact that we don't know what we're watching, we don't know what the players are supposed to execute, we just don't know what Norwich are anymore.
00:04:29
Speaker
and it kind of felt like and yes completely you know kind of getting carried away with with myself here but it felt like we had a bit of our knowledge back it felt like we knew what the plan might be and Wagner was really at pains to to talk about that beforehand and to talk about the fact that yeah we're going to be attacking and we're going to be throwing men forward and you know it's not going to work right away even though it did but you know it he he was quite clear about what he was trying to achieve
00:04:58
Speaker
And it's just, it was almost like this beautiful kind of chaotic thing that just emerged, you know, that there was six or seven people in the box. And we were certainly attacking with five at most times. I mean, the fact that Max was bombing on as much as he has this season full stop, you know, probably if you looked at all of his forays into the opposition half,
00:05:22
Speaker
He probably doubled them within the space of 90 minutes. It was quite clearly ridiculous. The fact that, you know, Demi and Ulysse was let off the leash and allowed to do the same thing, you know, they weren't fallbacks. They were wingers, essentially. It was almost like we were playing 2-3-5, you know, kind of old school 1950s formation. It was
00:05:40
Speaker
It was that daft in terms of the numbers that we were throwing forward. But there was an element of control to it. There was an element of tactical nuance. I mean, we need to talk about Kenny McLean because you regularly praise him and I regularly slag him off, but he has been phenomenal for the last two games. And it's actually probably, I think, one of the best things that Wagner has done because over the last, well, let's say 13 months,
Player Highlights & Roles
00:06:10
Speaker
We've really struggled to play out from the back, especially this season. We have pretty much not been able to play out from the back at all. And we've been architects of our own downfall. But the fact that he's split the centre backs and he's allowed Kenny to drop and almost into this quarterback role. I don't know why anyone hasn't thought of it before, because he just, like, basically, isn't it? He looks so, yeah. Yeah. But, but almost, you know, kind of completely withdrawn, you know, kind of, um,
00:06:37
Speaker
even further back almost playing as a third centre back and then you know you've got wing backs the the system in itself is relatively flexible but like I say it was just it's just really nice to have our Norwich back and to have
00:06:53
Speaker
Players have the spring in their step again. So you looked at someone like Pookie. He's a completely different animal. He was that different animal that Dean Smith was maybe searching for at the end of his tenure. He was back to being the proper goat. And then you had someone like Kieran Dowell who's brought in from the sidelines and immediately just looks like the type of player that we've needed. And Wagner talks about him afterwards and almost
00:07:20
Speaker
extolled the virtues of him going forward as an attacking force, but said, but we've got loads of work to do with him off the ball, you know, and defensively it, or the, Matt, the thing that plays Wagner the most was the tackle that, that Dowell had put in, you know, kind of midway through the second half or something, you know, like, actually he really knows what he wants to
Upcoming Matches & Predictions
00:07:37
Speaker
do with these players. He absolutely knows what the deficiencies still are, I would hope. And.
00:07:43
Speaker
You know, the fact that we've done it after one game is, is quite frankly ridiculous. So yeah, I am getting carried away a little bit. Yes, you're right. Fiona is just Preston and it is a Preston who were in woeful form at home, but we were really, really good. And I think if we, if we did that against any team in the championship, we should be more than a match for most.
00:08:04
Speaker
But to the point of getting carried away, I think because it was so routine or rather regular and it kept happening, all these positive changes that we're talking about, you can get carried away with how much he's managed to get a system and a philosophy into players in a week and nine days or whatever, nine calendar days, eight calendar days.
00:08:28
Speaker
You can you can say all but it went as well as it did from a result point of view as in you know four goals and a clean sheet and three points great say from from cruel in there by the way. You can say that it went as well as it did because breast and report but you but you there's absolutely no getting away from the positivity.
00:08:47
Speaker
I actually felt emotional on Saturday in the second half listening to Chris Gorham talking about how much of a kind of night and day it was and how much in terms of it's not necessarily our knowledge because you know you're already seeing signs that are different from Farkas football and football we've played in the past but you just the fact that we've got something that you can point to and go oh yeah Norwich play like that and it's and it's a nice way to point out and look at
Team Strategy & Execution
00:09:12
Speaker
And i just i don't think i realize how miserable even despite having a podcast that we don't know i don't realize quite how sad it had made me that we were playing such solace.
00:09:28
Speaker
Unidentifiable football in inverted corners until finally we've got something to look at when you're not in your head feeling you go away I mean what what was the vibe like in the in the away and deep down with regards to Rubbing your eyes and pinching each other that this is really happening
00:09:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think certainly with the first two goals coming so quickly after each other, that was the sort of disbelief moment. Yeah, like you say, it's playing in a way to the strengths of the players. My favourite of the goals was the third goal with the
00:10:05
Speaker
Well actually no, I like the fourth goal as well. Maybe they're joint. But the third goal, was it Sargent who played the three ball through to Pookie, who then squares it for Dowell. When was the last time someone played a ball like that to Pookie? If you do that, he's going to score from it. He's even going to take it on himself or he's going to do what he did really smartly on Saturday.
00:10:24
Speaker
and square it for the guy with the open goal and yeah it's just so simple and we've been saying for well pretty much for the last over a year you know we need to feed Pookie in that way because you know he's not he's not lost anything when you compare to sort of his previous championship seasons he'll always score if you give him service like that and yeah it was just it was it was it was having the
00:10:50
Speaker
the wingers pushing up, I thought Dimmy was brilliant, I thought Max was superb and just everyone pushing up the field and it just they just seems to have, I don't know, so much more, I don't know if it's freedom but they just seem to be trying that a lot more and yeah it just it just pays off when it does that so.
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah, it was nice as well to win a game comfortably because even when we had the winning run earlier in the season, I think it was only the Millwall home game that we won by sort of clear goals and the rest were all very tight and nervy at the end sometimes.
Player Form & Style
00:11:29
Speaker
So, yeah, it was just kind of nice to sort of enjoy it really, with no stress. That fourth goal, I think, is probably my favourite just because it was... Ah, there he is. You know, it was just... That was, you know, wind the clock back a couple of years and then another couple of years. That is... How many times have we seen a goal like that where you think, well, this guy's going to kick him up and... Oh, no, he's turned him inside out and now he's the other side of him. It was just... It was just Pookie doing what Pookie does.
00:11:58
Speaker
it was it was magic to to look forward to watching the highlights and um the the clips and the things that i've seen since and just kind of back up you know what you've been saying for your regards to the um the bombing forward and um they're playing out and i think to to your point on the third goal i think it was was that the one that came from a Kenny McLean back heel in his own that was the fourth one max picked it up
00:12:24
Speaker
Nice. But again, to your point, the fact that we've got Kenny playing that deeply and being told that he's allowed to create. I've been a huge fan of his. There's only really been a couple of performances of his that I've ever really thought he was more the problem than anyone else around him. I think he's been a scapegoat.
00:12:45
Speaker
and I've never, never understood it besides the fact that there always has to be one. And on games where he's had a five and a half or a six, I think you could also pick at least seven other players that have had a five and a half and a six. Like I say, there's a couple of perceptions where he might have had a bit of a bad one. But I think, I literally just think it's one of those things, if you stare at a player in a negative light for long enough, you're going to find mistakes.
Defensive Record & Standings
00:13:08
Speaker
And I think he does far more good than Harmon.
00:13:11
Speaker
So I'm delighted that Wagner has got good results straight away. So talking about the momentum pump, we've got two more games coming up that are similar to Preston in Coventry and Birmingham the next two Saturdays. They are both teams that haven't won in four. Birmingham have lost their last four.
00:13:32
Speaker
That's if we play Birmingham at all though, because that'll be off if they would go through the FA Cup and they're playing what? Forrest Green is it? So I would imagine without being disrespectful to Forrest Green, it's probably Kov and then Burnley. I just lost their CEO, Forrest Green, so I could unsettle them. Yeah.
00:13:51
Speaker
I will. OK, so maybe not Birmingham, but I mean, then we get a week off to learn, get even fitter and learn more about Wagner. And I mean, personally, it would really, really suit me if that game was was moved because I've got a bit of a quick dash after the game to get somewhere. So yeah, I mean, Coventry, they haven't they've I think it's one drawn three losses or something in the last four. They're really, really not in good spot form at the moment.
00:14:17
Speaker
And in theory, we go into that game with all the momentum and all the positivity, another week of training, another week of fitness. You know, surely we've got to feel really positive about, you know, keeping in touch if not breaking into that top six, John.
00:14:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think it will be interesting because we will have a week off and most of the other teams will play and if they put points on the board and we're playing catch-up then look, you know, Wagner talks about, you know, hunting and maybe wanting to come out of the pack and, you know, kind of go into the playoff picture.
00:14:51
Speaker
there's as we said on the last pod there's no reason we can't it's just i didn't think we would and i it was because i didn't think we could be dramatically turned around in the way that we have for one game and it is one game this is where we shouldn't get carried away but if we play like that every week we're going to be top six there's there's no doubt about it it's just that's the big if and i think the bit that i hadn't considered
00:15:15
Speaker
is Wagner's football is going to be massively and, you know, Fiona used the word earlier, but it's going to be massively dependent on intensity. And we're going to need the players to be really well drilled to execute the plan, but also to be really fit. And I kind of maybe naively thought without looking at the fixture list that Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday actually isn't Saturday, Tuesday for
Maintaining Form & Intensity
00:15:37
Speaker
a while. It is just weekend fixtures. So it's not your usual championship fodder because we've done Saturday, Tuesday for almost every week.
00:15:44
Speaker
prior to the World Cup break. So the fact that we will only have games on a weekend should be a massive benefit to us now to get a bit more fitness in the legs, to get those intensity levels to a point where we can continue to be really effective. And Wagner's teams always have been streaky, be it positively or negatively. We just need to ride that positive streak if we can. If we can start to build up some kind of momentum,
00:16:14
Speaker
you know, even going at two points a game, I think is still going to be a tough ask for us. But if we do, we'll be in the playoff picture. No, no problem at all. You said you said you have to play like that every week. We don't need to play that every other week that we can afford to be dreadful every other game. Obviously, like you say, streakiness of Wagner is that he tends to do six good or five bad or whatever. But, you know, the I was making the point after the
00:16:38
Speaker
appointment of Wagner that it would be a disaster and a failure I think of him with this squad and I didn't think he would give us as good a showing as we got at the weekend but I just simply thought that one game out of the the the playoffs it's just too small a gap to how irrelevant of normally it's this this this year this season it might be 75 or whatever or you know normally needs to be two two wins a game between now and then together but
00:17:04
Speaker
I just think based on how topsy-turvy this championship is, like look at the Blackburn getting humped last week, I just think most of the 4-0 it'll be at the weekend by Brotherham. I just think there are enough results like that that will help Norwich out, bearing in mind they are currently sitting 7th.
00:17:24
Speaker
And you know, I think it's something like seven best defensive record seven seventh best scoring record something around that So, you know, we deserve to be where we are. I don't think we'll be in the playoff picture though. I think that's the difference I don't think I'm impressed with them and they've they've strolled past Norwich twice
00:17:41
Speaker
you know, right in front of me without getting out of first gear. But anyway, look, in terms of the big call that took place at the weekend, how surprised were you at two o'clock that there was a different person between the sticks than maybe we were expecting?
00:17:58
Speaker
Yeah, I was surprised. And I'm still kind of on the fence about it. I feel it is harsh on Angus, I think, because he hasn't really done a great deal wrong. But then I just wonder if it's maybe to do with the sort of, like we were saying, the intensity and almost the aggression that we saw sometimes in sort of snapping into some of those tackles.
00:18:20
Speaker
I think Tim as a keeper is more, he's certainly more vocal on the pitch. He sort of gets involved more, you know, not always a good thing if he's sort of piling into like when it all kicks off and stuff. But maybe that was part of the thinking. I mean, his distribution wasn't great in the game. We like, I think it was just before halftime, Preston, when it was 3-0, they made their double sub.
00:18:44
Speaker
And then in the sort of 10 minutes before halftime, they really should have got one back, at least one, because they had several chances and one of them came directly from a cruel bit of distribution that fell short. And I think it was Kenny who made the block. So yeah, it wasn't a perfect performance. Obviously, as we said, he did make some good saves as well.
00:19:09
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, he'll keep his place now, I would think, you know, but it does seem a bit harsh on Angus because, you know, he played well in a poor team, really. It wasn't his fault that the results were poor in the last couple of months or whenever.
00:19:24
Speaker
I agree. He made some good saves as well at times. You were talking about games being close, including in the period when we were losing and drawing, there were games where we would have lost by a lot worse if it wasn't for gun save. Speaking of keeping his place after a 4-0 win, it will be even more bizarre if he then goes to Angus for commentary, because then you really will think, well, what are you basing this on? Is it like a Magic 8 ball?
00:19:48
Speaker
So it might be that he went, total reset, I'm going to go with the club's number one. And no one's made a mistake yet on my watch.
Goalkeeper Discussion
00:20:01
Speaker
Maybe he saw some things in the Blackburn game, the FA Cup game, that made him feel like, actually, I'm going to completely reset.
00:20:11
Speaker
Angus has obviously been in and out of teams his whole career really, so it'll be interesting. You would therefore assume that he's built up a bit of a thick skin and he's built up a bit of a long-term mentality that his chance will come again. You'd hope that wouldn't affect him too negatively, but I completely agree.
00:20:30
Speaker
It seems strange to, that's one of the things that I would really like to hear, and I don't know if I've missed it, but I haven't seen that decision explained. I think there was enough to talk about on Saturday evening with the local press lads that that didn't come up, unless you guys have seen it. He talked about it briefly, and I think it might have been
00:20:48
Speaker
Paddy from local boys that had asked about it, but he was very much, we've got two very good goalkeepers. I've spoken to them both. I'll keep those conversations private, but Tim is the one I went with. And I think he even said like the one I went with this week, almost indicating that he might chop and change, but you just can't see that goalkeeper is a position that you would. And I think, as you're saying, Fiona, I think
00:21:14
Speaker
maybe it's his characteristics in its crawls characteristics because Gunn never really gives me the impression like terrific shot stopper that he is yeah doesn't really seem like he commands a box or you know he leads a defense um but actually i think Angus's distribution has been better than Tim's yeah that's what i'm saying that's that's that's what i don't
00:21:33
Speaker
That's the only bit. That's the bit where I'd be like, well, he's had an obvious edge over Tim Kroll. But then if we look at Kroll's distribution 18-19, it was brilliant. And I just wonder whether David Wagner, much like Daniel Farko, is going to ask his goalkeepers to be brave. And Kroll is maybe that man. Maybe it is just kind of around personality types that he wants in the team. Because Kroll is, you know, look, he's a big
00:22:03
Speaker
leader in that dressing room there is no doubt about that you see the way in which he interacts with players on the pitch and off the pitch and you know like fans off the pitch as well like he is someone who gets the football club and cares about the football club and nurtures his teammates around him so
00:22:18
Speaker
Maybe that's the kind of thing that we've been missing dean smith's teams have been bland as fuck and maybe we just need you know a bit of bravery and a bit of charisma and. I would definitely say that tim has got the edge on angus in that regard when you would be funny to see them.
00:22:34
Speaker
not funny, that's not the word for it. But yeah, Brian's reaction on Twitter afterwards, you know, when the announcement was made, you know, in the bit, the tweets that he was liking, I was just like, Oh, the Gunn family have not taken that well, you know, being dropped. And fairly, like, if you were a family member of Angus, you would be, you would be pissed because it was still even now, like, as you say, for me, it's still a situation where you just, I
00:22:57
Speaker
I don't really know where that's come from. It hasn't been based on merit, has it? Or goalkeeping merit. Well, you don't know what goes on up colony, Neil. But at the same time, you can't imagine Angus has turned in such bad performances for a few days that he's not done. I mean, likewise, fitness-wise, you'd be astonished if there was that big a difference. They're not going to run far, have they? So I don't know. It is a strange one. I'm one to monitor. And to your point about Brian getting cross,
00:23:25
Speaker
You don't know if you don't want any cleats in the camp where actually there's two or three that are really close friends of Angus and you don't necessarily want them to be annoyed. But we've seen the camaraderie and the togetherness of that back five with people coming in and out of it. Cruel does seem genuine. The congratulations that happens when he made that really big save in the second half where he tipped it over the bar.
00:23:51
Speaker
You know, there was a lot of people going to him and congratulating him then. But okay, let's look forward then. Fionn, I would like a guaranteed score line and a guaranteed score for Saturday.
00:24:04
Speaker
Okay, so I think we are going to win at Coventry. We are. But I think it'll be a bit tighter than Saturday just gone. So I'm going to go for 2-1. And I think the guaranteed scorer, I think Pookie again, because now we know what to do, which we knew anyway, just play it through to him. And yeah, we need to get Pookie to 100 goals. So we just we just need to give him the ball all the time.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah, I'm with you there, punty. Yeah, I was going to go similar. I think it will be tighter. I'm sure it'll be tighter. Mark Robbins runs a fairly tight ship in that regard, regardless of their recent form. I think they will be up for
Listener Questions on Wagner's Impact
00:24:48
Speaker
this. I was going to say 2-0, maybe another cruel, clean sheet, and a Gabby Sarah Thunder Bastard.
00:24:56
Speaker
Okay, I like that you've also given me an adjective or a type of goal. They've conceded fewer than us Coventry and they're one of the tighter ones in the division. So I'm only going to go 3-1. Just the three. Yeah, just the three. Because I think it's time for a long-come Norwich to turn up and knock some goals too. And I will also go with Teemu because water is wet.
00:25:20
Speaker
and the GOAT scores goals. That's just what happens. Listening questions, Jon. We've had a few. We have had a few, although they're kind of all around a theme of David Wagner. So we'll start with... Funny that.
00:25:35
Speaker
Yeah, weird. We'll start with our friend Elizabeth Coldwell, who says, what made the big difference? How did it get turned around so quickly? Is it the manager's personality? The team just needed a lift? New formation? I mean, she's putting forward lots of answers that we might come up with as well. Or, as she says, is it just the new manager bounce? Should we not relax just yet?
00:25:56
Speaker
Fionn, you were there. What do you think was the biggest thing that changed? I think it was just the intensity in everything we did. It just felt like we were snapping into tackles a lot quicker, we were closing down a lot quicker.
00:26:17
Speaker
When we were in possession, we were moving the ball quicker. I think it felt like there were more options for passes. I've watched games in the last couple of months where someone's got the ball in midfield and they're just sort of looking around for a pass and no one wants it. Whereas now,
00:26:35
Speaker
Yeah, everyone was moving for the ball a lot quicker. We were taking a lot more shots as well. Again, there were times before when you'd just be begging someone to have a shot, and they wouldn't. And it was just incredibly frustrating. But yeah, I mean, I didn't see the Blackburn game last week. But not to go with Dean Smith on statistics, but the shot count on both those games is
00:27:01
Speaker
way beyond what we've had on recent games. And yeah, I think there's a bit of new manager bounce in there as well, isn't there? It's kind of a fresh start. I mean, there were people in the concourse at halftime on Saturday singing about Dean Smith, and I just sort of thought, okay, it's kind of funny the first time you're singing Dean Smith your football shit. That's kind of funny. But
00:27:21
Speaker
And then when it's the second or third or fourth chant about him, I just think, you know, it's time to move on. We're 3-0 up at halftime. We've got a new manager. It's time to sort of forget that and let's just see where we go with this.
00:27:36
Speaker
But yeah, I just think they'll have had a week of a lot of new stuff by the look of it, like say the double sessions and stuff like that. It seems like that's all, that's quite a change up. And I think it just energizes everyone really. So yeah, we'll see how it goes. But I think it's a combination of all those things that Elizabeth mentioned really.
00:28:00
Speaker
Talking about energising people, I guess, the one thing that came across loud and clear post-match on the stream that I was watching was Wagner.
00:28:12
Speaker
physically pushing some of the players towards the crowd and like, go and appreciate them, go and recognise them. There was this, you know, kind of real sense of, he gets it, he knows that that connection needs to be there. And look, he's probably had that feedback from the football club, you know, people at the football club as well to say, look, this was a really disenfranchised fan base and part of your rumour is to fix that.
00:28:33
Speaker
Did it feel like that in the stands? Did it feel like immediately people recognized what he was doing and there was some kind of appreciation of that? Because it felt like it, but without being there, it's difficult to tell. Yeah, definitely everyone was looking forward to the end of the game and saying, I'd normally dash off at this point, but I'll stay and watch people saying things like that. And yeah, it was very noticeable that he hung behind all the players. I thought he might come and give the big wave
00:29:01
Speaker
And during the game, people were singing Wagner give us a wave and sort of stuff like that. And he was sort of doing it from the dugout, not in a sort of overblown way, but it's just a sort of acknowledgement thing. But then at full time, he could quite easily have come and given the big, the big Faka wave or Wagner wave or whatever we have to call it. But no, he, he just literally, well, first of all, he, some of the players were sort of drifting back and he went and physically moved them towards the away end and then they were also in a line.
00:29:27
Speaker
and he just again pushed them forward closer to the fans and yeah it's yeah of all the away games in the last year you know even the ones we've won really I'm thinking of Watford and that's probably the only one we have one it was very noticeable that he was putting the team first and
00:29:51
Speaker
and making sure they all sort of acknowledged it. And yeah, they got a brilliant reception back, of course. So yeah, he's definitely present. I think he's obviously thought very carefully what he would do in that scenario. And given it was clear we were going to win from half an hour, he obviously had a lot of time to think about what he was going to do.
Wagner's Style & Player Potential
00:30:10
Speaker
But yeah, it was nice to see.
00:30:13
Speaker
It was I wonder if it's German thing. And I wrote this quote down, I looked it up and I wrote it down because I thought it was worthy of talking about on the pod. But a wise man once said football is a game for the fans and it should be fun for everyone involved. Now, of course, that was the lovely Daniel Farka, but it feels like
00:30:36
Speaker
Wagner is kind of, I don't know, he's out of the same mold, isn't he, Tom? You know, he knows he gets that. The football is different, but he gets how it should feel for the supporters. Yeah, I mean, I think he's best mates with Klopp, isn't he? And Klopp is similar with his kind of approach to the energy, the intensity. He wants to have the fittest team in the league. He wants to have the most aggressive team in the league. He wants to have the most competitive team in the league. These are the things that
00:31:04
Speaker
You know, he said on his unveiling interview, which I thought Darren Eddy did a brilliant job of. And I, I don't know, watching the behind the scenes, his first day at Coney and it hasn't been that much easier yet really for us to get our teeth into and get a sense of the guy, because obviously you're hungry to try and understand who it is that we've appointed and what the era might be. You don't necessarily want to wait for the games to come until you get that sense of the bloke.
00:31:33
Speaker
But I love the, an early observation is, and this is kind of answering Elizabeth's question, I think what may have done it is the energy with which he gives to answering questions from Paddy, Michael,
00:31:49
Speaker
Darren E. Dee, whatever, the thoughtfulness with which he sometimes, a couple of times I've seen him stop and rephrase something because no, I want to actually make sure I get this answer right. And obviously I know he's doing another language, but if he's like that with something that he contractually has to do the bare minimum of, and we've just seen a year of what the contractual bare minimum looks like, monosyllabic, bollard-like,
00:32:14
Speaker
Then I just wonder if his conversations with the players are therefore similar. I mean you can't guarantee that you can draw a line between the two, but if he is that thoughtful and he's taking his time and trying to make sure he's getting the best out of that answer and that interaction and that engagement,
00:32:33
Speaker
you just you just can't help but be infused and motivated and one of the things we talked about when we first found out about Walden was we hope that he gets hold of Dow or Nunes or Campwell obviously this is pre the Campwell Rangers stuff.
00:32:48
Speaker
or it was pre that. We hope because we basically need a 10 or some other kind of creative midfielder attacking out there to really, really run things and drive things. And maybe initially he's done that with Kenny from a kind of go back and build things up. You know, maybe he gave him some DVDs of David Fox. And likewise, you know, he's maybe done a similar thing with Al said, I love love seeing what you're providing and training. And then he looked at some old clips of him and said, I want you to play with this kind of freedom.
00:33:17
Speaker
If he can get a tune out of Owen L. Hernandez and huge respect for the industry and the pace and the power that Owen L's got, but if he can find a way of getting him into positions where the shot choice, the shot cross choice is more often the right one and the quality of that shot or cross is more often
00:33:36
Speaker
good. I mean, he really is a miracle workers unfair on O'Nell, but you know, everyone knows the issue with O'Nell. He gives you unbelievable amounts of industry and he is a problem to deal with. And he's the last person you want to face in the last 20 minutes when you're tired. But you know, sometimes he chooses the wrong option. And often what he does choose flies over the bar or flies across the box. So if he can try and do with him what he's done with Al, then
00:34:00
Speaker
by giving him that enthusiasm and energy and really thinking about how he can help his game. That would be a great test of him as a coach. That was almost how the first goal cropped up, though, wasn't it, on Saturday? It was enthusiasm and energy and just kind of bundling your way into the box. And then I think it somehow broke to Sarah, who was on the floor, and just kind of clawed it to Pookie. And then, of course, Pookie does Pookie things and just slots it calmly into the net.
00:34:27
Speaker
it feels like that might be the plan a bit now it's just right let's overload just to get numbers in the box and we never really did that under smith or if we did it was kind of last 10 minutes of the game and Hanley had gone up front and then we were just going to pump it or something ridiculous but it it feels more chaotic than that
00:34:46
Speaker
and slightly more simplistic, but also a little bit more nuanced as well, because you've got creative types up there and they're not just stood in a line just waiting for something to happen. They are moving around. And I just think that's maybe because these players are being given license. So there's no one can doubt the fact that Kieran Dowell had or has loads and loads of creative talent and knows what to do in terms of finding Pookie and actually is always going to be a threat in and around the box.
00:35:15
Speaker
If you haven't got runners and the start of football is just a bit garbage and predictable, then he's going to struggle in that kind of setup. And the fact that we are now going to have an abundance of options and actually Max and Demi out wide is going to spread the play, but he's also going to make it more difficult for people to predict.
00:35:36
Speaker
is of benefit to everyone, you know, in an orange shirt. But I did want to touch on Max, and I know we've kind of given him some kind words, but that was as good as I think I've seen Max play since 18-19, maybe. That really reminded me of that performance against, I think it was Sheffield Wednesday away of 4-0, and he was just unplayable. And it felt like that Max had re-emerged, and we've said plenty of times on this pod that he's regressed and actually isn't the player he was.
00:36:06
Speaker
feels like that's maybe coaching and he just needs to be let off the leash again and he has and look at the kind of full back slash wing back that we've got off the back of that. It's brilliant. I think one of the main things that Farka changed in the second season into the Premier League was
00:36:24
Speaker
stopping the fullbacks being Start starting in as advanced positions when we had the ball so starting with more of a back four rather than a back two then kind of finding a way to play it diagonally to the fullbacks and I and I think Max's ceiling has always been there It's just he's isn't regressed as a with his ability. He's just regressed in terms of the performances He's been able to put him anyway
Cultural Tidbits & Humor
00:36:50
Speaker
Another question. There are two people that have asked along a similar vein. So it's Richard at Richard 242 on Twitter. And also Nick Hayhoe of the Long Come Norwich parish has asked around butter pies. So Richard has said he just thinks there needs to be some butter pie chat.
00:37:12
Speaker
And Nick has asked if butter pies are better than donor pies. Now, I have to admit, I've never experienced a butter pie, but, Fionn, I'm imagining, given, you know, judging by your Instagram, that you are a bit of a pie and pint connoisseur, that, you know, you will be able to talk with authority on this subject.
00:37:31
Speaker
Yeah, I can talk with authority on this subject and I did have a butter pie on Saturday. It was a part of the motivation for going, I have to say. So a butter pie for those that don't know is a pie pastry case with a lid and it contains potatoes and butter and probably some salt and pepper.
00:37:52
Speaker
And it might have onion in. I don't know. I think it's traditionally has onions in as well. It tasted a bit like it had onion in, but I couldn't see any. Anyway, it's a Lancashire specialty, and they settle them in the ground at Preston. And yeah, it's just one of those things to try before you die. I think it should be on one of those bucket list things. Anyway, yes, I had one before the game, and it set up the afternoon perfectly. What was Nick's question? A butter pie or a donut pie? Correct.
00:38:22
Speaker
I've never had a donner pie but it sounds horrible so I think it's got to be the butter pie hasn't it? I mean I think Nick must have put it up there because he's a fan of those parties but you know I'm sure he'll inform us in the group chat post-pod of yeah what a donner pie well I think we know what a donner pie is but you know the benefits of a donner pie.
00:38:40
Speaker
Tom, ever had a butter pie? I haven't, no. Been to detail, got cold up there, but not didn't partake. So I will have to add it to my list of culinary bucket list items.
Premier League Prospects & Strategies
00:38:56
Speaker
We also have Norwich Van Gegenrecht, who asks, this is really getting away with ourselves, would Wagner Ball be more successful in the Premier League than Farka Ball? Tom kicks off there, mate.
00:39:11
Speaker
Uh,
00:39:12
Speaker
Yes, if it's got the playing stuff. I mean, so sorry. No, not necessarily more successful. I think it has exactly the same level of ceiling as the Farkable. You know, he didn't have the tools to do it first time round. Second time round, he had money spent. But as we talked about on the last part, when we went through those 18 kind of Premier League signings that
00:39:42
Speaker
Weber has made, only three of them you would still say would make this team better or should be in the first level of this team. So I think that intensity levels, 100%, it would put us on a par with the way that some of the kind of lower top six and middle eight of the Premier League try and play at times.
00:40:05
Speaker
There are lots of phases in Premier League football where you have kind of periods of high intensity than periods of control because obviously tactically it's a lot more adept than what you get in the championship. So yeah, maybe we could muscle it with the big boys a bit better with that kind of high intensity and making it more difficult for people to play up. I mean, the challenge you've got playing really high pressing football
00:40:30
Speaker
and trying to limit space. If you've not got players who are physical fast enough and just purely big enough in terms of size to plug those gaps, you then make it very easy for the team to just play around you, especially if you're playing a team with really, really high level of technical ability who can just play triangles around you and play out. And then if they've beaten your press all of a sudden, they're charging down on your back four with no support from the midfielders because they've all pushed up to press.
00:40:56
Speaker
So yeah, I think I think maybe yes, slightly better chance, but it completely depends on are we going to get some at an SEO cash if and when the time comes this season, next season, if it ever happens. I just think until recruitment is solved, any of these questions around suitability for the Premier League.
00:41:20
Speaker
unless we know the answer to the recruitment question going up, it's almost irrelevant which manager we would have. What did Huddersfield's recruitment look like when they went up? Because the obvious comparison here is that Farka has gone up and failed fairly miserably with his brand of football.
00:41:43
Speaker
once because of a lack of investment and the second time, as you just said, Tom, because we signed stinkers for the most part. But Wagner has taken a team or a bunch of misfits up into the Premier League and kept them there. But I don't actually know how much was invested in that team and whether Dean Hoyle at Huddersfield did pump a load of cash in.
00:42:09
Speaker
You know what, I can see you frantically Googling now probably, but you know, what was the level of investment? When did they go up? Was it 17? 17, 18, I think. Did they come down 17, 18, 16, 17? They went up.
00:42:23
Speaker
Yeah, I can't quite remember. That's something we'll look into for the next pod because it's never that easy to just see a concise list. And it looks like over that period of time, oh, they had Rob Green, 17, 18. You know, they had people like Danny Williams and Laurent de Poitre from Porto. Oh, they signed Alex Pritchard, didn't they? Yeah, they signed Alex Pritchard to help them get on up.
00:42:50
Speaker
So yeah, Tom Ince was signed. So it looks from the very, very quickly just looking, it looks like they had a similar issue in that most of those players are not playing Premier League football now. And it's not that long. But Wagner was able to keep them up for a season. So I think to answer that question, I think is probably, yeah, it might have a slightly better chance, at least in the infancy of, you know, when you're beginning your Premier League stay.
00:43:18
Speaker
I think the key one they signed up that they won the playoff final and then the signing they made that summer was Aaron Moy. Yeah. And then he was basically the key one in that in that first season where they stayed up. It just all went through him in midfield, wasn't it? So yeah, and you know, we found that and when we've been in the Premier League, if you need a really strong player in that position, so.
00:43:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think I think like Tom says, it's it's recruitment, isn't it? Yeah, and hopefully we get that right. Yeah, you have to, you know, you there are two different ways of doing it. You either have a big spend in January and really
00:43:53
Speaker
kind of turn your season around in the kind of February, March, April period of busy fixtures in the Premier League. Or you do a kind of what I think Harvisfil did and Brighton did and Sheffield United did and Brentford did.
00:44:13
Speaker
so probably the more successful way of doing it. You start the season with such momentum still and you basically rack up enough points to get you to 20-23 points before Christmas. Get yourself over halfway so that by Christmas time you are maybe 13-14th and you're not
00:44:31
Speaker
Yes, of course, you're looking over your shoulder until you get to 40. But if you can pick up three or four wins in those first seven, eight games, rather than, you know, like the Norwich way, desperately thinking, when's the first point going to come? When's the first, you know? Yeah, but then 1920.
00:44:47
Speaker
That didn't happen, did it? We did get off to a relatively good start. We beat Newcastle, you had the Pookie Hat trick, we beat Man City. It was almost injuries that did us that season. You're right. If we had have been able to establish that momentum off the back of those seismic results, the Tottenham VAR goal, that would have continued that. So we were on track, you could argue, for
00:45:06
Speaker
that model, which is you basically do your stayin' up between August and December. And then, was it Watford who recently who... No, I think it was Brighton, wasn't it? They basically went on a long run of not
00:45:25
Speaker
getting a point uh for ages no actually it was Southampton wasn't it it was Southampton they basically were doing really really well and then they went on something like a 9 10 game losing run but they effectively still didn't end up anywhere near the relegation zone because they basically done all the hard work in in the first three four months i think that is
Managing Player Trades & Loyalty
00:45:44
Speaker
I think it's important to set the narrative, particularly for a yo-yo team like Norwich. If we don't get off to a good start in the first four or five games, it's then, oh, here they are again, yo-yo team, yo-yo specialist, again, what are they doing here, et cetera, et cetera. So you almost have to say, no, it's different this time in your first few results to set the narrative for players, pundits,
00:46:07
Speaker
So the exterior noise is not piling on and fans to think, oh, no, actually, we've actually given ourselves a fighting chance. Like you almost need, you know, six from your first 15 to help you believe in that. Yeah, no, quite a great. Well, let's have one more question. I mean, I know everyone's answered this already, but I'm going to ask anyway, it's a little bit of would you rather from Phil on Twitter, who asks, apparently, Dan Dumas looking for a new club he's offering. He says we can have him if Pookie goes the other way. Would you?
00:46:37
Speaker
And I mean, the logical answer would be Dan Jumer is a talent who's probably in his mid 20s and could give us levels of service for many years and would be a creative force. But Pookie needs to get to 100 goals. Of that, there is no doubt. So Phil, I'm definitely going to say no chance because will we remember Dan Jumer in
00:47:01
Speaker
20 years if he gives us 18 months of service and maybe gets us near the Premier League or will we remember Pookie's 100 goals and it's definitely going to be Teemu. Fion, what do you think?
00:47:12
Speaker
Yeah, I completely agree. I'm far too emotionally attached to let him go in some kind of swap deal. So it's a no from me. And yeah, it was so nice to see him enjoying himself again. And yeah, that fourth goal was just vintage, vintage Pookie. So yeah, he's not finished, et cetera. No. Nice punks. I completely agree with everything that has been said by my aforementioned colleagues.
00:47:42
Speaker
And I think as well that Pookie with a smile on his face maybe gives me slightly more hope that he might sign for another 12 months regardless of whether we get promoted or not. You know, if we continue in this vein of Swashbuckling football, you know, and it is attacking and we are feeding him and he's scoring goals.
00:48:00
Speaker
Yeah, maybe he might get a move to the Premier League if he's available on a free, but I don't know. He must have some sort of emotional bond with Nori City as well. He's been here long enough. He gets it. He gets the football club. So, you know, hopefully, new contract for Pookie, new contract for some of the other ones that we might like to see re-sign. And yeah, everyone will be ready to go on the Wagner bus.
00:48:23
Speaker
Well, thank you very, very much, Fion, for giving us some first-person review insight. Really appreciate you joining us this lunchtime. Punt, I acknowledge you exist, and we will enjoy watching those guaranteed three victories. We all went for a victory on Saturday, so there's probably no point in even following the game. You just wait for the table to update Saturday evening. Mind, there you go.