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The Arab World and Gaza Genocide with Elham Fakhro
82 Plays10 months ago
Elham Fakhro joins host Yara Hawari to discuss the reactions of Arab peoples and their governments to the ongoing genocide in Gaza, placing them within the historical and contemporary context of Arab normalization with the Israeli regime.
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Transcript
Introduction: Civic Movements and Government Inaction
00:00:00
Speaker
I think the question that civic movements across the Arab world are asking is, where is the ceiling here? Is there any point at which these governments are going to start actually taking real action? So while governments may be unwilling to go further in jeopardizing what they see as their own interests, they are going to face mounting pressure from civil society, which really does want to see action taken at this point.
Rethinking Palestine Podcast Introduction
00:00:29
Speaker
From Ashabaka, the Palestinian Policy Network, I am Yara Hawari, and this is Rethinking Palestine.
00:00:39
Speaker
The genocide in Gaza which began in October 2023 is ongoing. Nearly the entire population has been displaced from their homes with the majority forced into tiny areas in the south near the Rafah border with Egypt. Upwards of 30,000 Palestinians have been killed and a third of whom are children. Many more are trapped under the rubble of their bombed homes.
00:01:00
Speaker
In the Arab world demonstrations have taken place in Jordan, Bahrain, Yemen, Lebanon and beyond against this brutal assault and in solidarity with the Palestinian people. Yet by and large these demonstrations and the popular sentiment have not been represented in the form of action from their governments.
Arab Reactions to Gaza Genocide
00:01:18
Speaker
Indeed there is a very stark disconnect between the popular Arab support for Palestinian liberation and the action or inaction of the Arab regimes and leaders.
00:01:27
Speaker
To discuss this more, I'm joined by Dr. Ilham Fakhro. Ilham is a research fellow at the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies at Exeter University and an associate fellow at the Chatham House MENA program. She's the author of an upcoming book on the Abraham Accords and Arab normalization with Israel. Ilham, thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Rethinking Palestine. Thank you, Yara. It's a pleasure to be with you.
00:01:52
Speaker
So Ilham, obviously this is a huge topic and we can't homogenize the region into a one size fits all. But I think it would be good to try and cover as much as possible and to get an overview. So with that in mind, perhaps you can start off by giving us a summary of what the reaction to the genocide in Gaza has been amongst peoples across the region.
00:02:11
Speaker
Absolutely, so there's been massive support for the Palestinians across the entire region and I think that's quantifiable in three ways actually. We've seen popular protests taking place across the Arab world, particularly as you noted in the countries where protests are more or less allowed. The numbers that we've seen coming out onto the streets in places like Jordan,
00:02:32
Speaker
Egypt, even Morocco, Yemen, haven't really been seen since, I would say, the Iraq War protest shook the region in 2003 and during the Second Intifada. So there's huge, huge popular mass support for the Palestinians
Popular Support vs. Government Inaction
00:02:45
Speaker
in Arab cities. We've also seen a revival of the boycott movement, a lot of support for BDS right now, particularly targeting the brands that support occupation, that support the settlements in particular,
00:02:58
Speaker
We've seen Starbucks targeted, McDonald's, even lesser known brands like Caribou Coffee. People do their research. Caribou, for example, operates in the settlements and people have targeted them as a result. So it's a really expansive boycott movement. Even Joe and the Juice, you know, which is not a usual target for these movements, has also been targeted for boycotting cases like that.
00:03:19
Speaker
And so people on social media are really raising awareness of this. They're educating themselves when access to this information just isn't available on usual media networks and on the mainstream media. And we're also seeing evidence of this support just in polling data that's been coming out in the past few weeks. So, for example, a recent poll from the Washington Institute in Washington, D.C., found that 96 percent of Saudis now oppose normalization with Israel.
00:03:47
Speaker
a jump from previous numbers. Another released from the Doha Institute found that 97% of Arabs experience psychological stress from the conflict in Gaza. People are deeply, deeply affected by the devastation and the genocide that they're seeing play out.
00:04:03
Speaker
on a day-to-day basis. And I think it's interesting. I'll just anecdotally point out in my own experience, social media is flooded with images from Gaza, and it has been every single day for the past three months. People aren't letting up. You might expect there to be fatigue at this point, but there isn't. People are determined to keep awareness going and to keep pressure going as much as they can.
00:04:25
Speaker
This popular sentiment that you've outlined for us stands in direct contrast to many of the Arab regimes and their governments who've largely been inactive.
Protests and Government Control in Bahrain
00:04:35
Speaker
Can you tell us why this is the case and perhaps give us a few examples?
00:04:40
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So the Arab states have been active nearly at the level of rhetoric. They've come together, you know, during several, well, the Saudi-led summit in particular at the beginning of the war to call for a ceasefire. They've called for eventually a return to talks around a two-state solution and for greater humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. These are the three points around which they are united. But this rhetoric really hasn't translated into any kind of meaningful action.
00:05:10
Speaker
Jordan is really the only country that has even recalled its ambassador to Israel. The other Arab states that have ambassadors haven't even gone so far as to do that. It's really a far cry when you think about the past action that's been taken at the level of, for example, the 1973 oil embargo.
00:05:26
Speaker
Arab states have been very, very timid this time around. It's clear that they're placing their own interests above the Palestinian issue. It's clear that they aren't really attentive or willing to respond to populist and popular pressures to do something about this, or at least to cut or downgrade diplomatic relations. And that's what we're seeing across the board. Elham, you are largely based in Bahrain. Could you tell us about what's been going on there in the protest there?
Balancing Public Outrage and Diplomatic Ties
00:05:54
Speaker
Yeah, so Bahrain has been one of the most active places on this, despite it being very small and having a smaller population relative to the rest of the Arab world. But in Bahrain, we've seen weekly protests every single Friday in support of the Palestinians.
00:06:09
Speaker
And these take two forms. There are license protests that are sanctioned by the government, allowed by the government. These are usually led by a society called the Bahrain Society Against Normalization with the Zionist Enemy. This was a civil society group established in 2002, during the Second Intifada, to really resist any kind of normalization with Israel.
00:06:32
Speaker
whether through trade whether through official diplomatic relations or anything like that so this society has been organizing weekly protests and some extent you know the state tolerates that they allow it but i think i do have to add a caveat there that it's within carefully confined areas so the licenses that are given for these protests are,
00:06:51
Speaker
either within a closed-off courtyard in Manama, this is away from public view, or they take place outside the capital, again outside the main highway. So this is really where we see what the government is willing to tolerate in terms of public visible dissent.
00:07:07
Speaker
There are also plenty of unauthorized protests that take place. These are organized by other political groups. Some of them have been banned in connection with the Arab Spring protests. So these organizations and groups also do organize protests. These take place usually in villages, also away from public view. And these are the ones that are more likely or are
00:07:27
Speaker
subjected to a crackdown. So people found protesting and these demonstrations have been the target of arrests and Human Rights Watch has recently issued a report outlining the arrest of children at some of these demonstrations under the age of 18. And why is it that Bahraini authorities allow some protests to take place and not others?
00:07:47
Speaker
It's a great question, Yara. I think they are aware that completely banning protests around this issue would be a step too far. They, I think, are conscious that people feel very, very strongly around this issue. Perhaps there is an awareness that there needs to be some kind of release for the pressures that people face. So they do allow these protests, but I think
00:08:07
Speaker
we do need to recognize as well that that's unlikely to have an impact on public policy in the state. It's more of a sense of, okay, let the people sort of release some of the frustrations and anger that they feel around this issue will allow it to take place away from public view, you know, none of the kind of
00:08:24
Speaker
Tourists visiting the country, none of the embassy officials are going to really see any of this unless they go and look for it. None of the journalists, certainly. And so in this way they're able to sort of balance between popular pressure and their own policy of maintaining relations with Israel.
Jordan's Diplomatic Tightrope
00:08:42
Speaker
That's a strategy that we've seen elsewhere as well, where authorities allow for demonstrations or protests as a way to release or as a release for popular outrage against the genocide. We've certainly seen that in Jordan. You mentioned earlier that Jordan
00:08:59
Speaker
was the only regime which has relations with Israel that actually took action and expelled its Israeli ambassador. And I think Jordan's been an interesting one to follow. They obviously have to play a very delicate balancing act between their domestic and foreign considerations. The majority of the population have Palestinian backgrounds, and Jordan has seen massive protests.
00:09:24
Speaker
in support of Gaza and the Palestinian struggle. And meanwhile, the Jordanian regime has a very strong relationship with the US. It's actually the second largest recipient of USAID after Israel. And so many in Jordan are actually calling for the government to do more to actually totally cut diplomatic ties with the Israeli regime. And it's worth noting that they did endorse South Africa's ICJ genocide submission. But do you think this is as far as they will go?
00:09:50
Speaker
We are waiting to see where the red lines are for the Arab governments. What amount of dead Palestinians are going to spur further action from them? It wasn't 10,000. It wasn't 20,000. And it isn't 30,000. So I think the question that civic movements across the Arab world are asking is, where is the ceiling here? Is there any point at which these governments are going to start actually taking real action? For Jordan, as you noted, it's very, very dependent on the United States.
00:10:19
Speaker
so is a country like Bahrain. So governments for now are choosing to prioritize those relationships, but it is impacting civic perceptions on the ground. I mean opposition and anger towards not only Israel, but the United States is at an all-time high right now.
00:10:35
Speaker
even polling data reflects this. I think the earlier poll that I referenced from the Doha Institute found that 70% of Arabs, this is a poll from 16 countries, experience or are articulating anger towards the United States as well. So while governments may be unwilling to take action or go further in jeopardizing what they see as their own interests, they are going to face mounting pressure from civil society, which really does want to see action taken at this point.
Palestinian Struggle and Arab Liberation
00:11:05
Speaker
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00:11:18
Speaker
A lot of these regimes are incredibly worried about civil unrest and how this spillover into criticising domestic policy because I think Arabs across the region are realising that the Palestinian struggle is directly linked to their liberation from authoritarian regimes.
00:11:40
Speaker
This is where we see the two issues as related. Arab governments have not been responsive on the Palestinian issue, but this also kind of brings back memories or existing grievances for Arab populations on their own local demands, which is why we do see the two issues linked in the popular consciousness, I think, for many people.
Saudi-Israel Relations and US Influence
00:12:01
Speaker
So of course over the last few years policy vis-a-vis the Israeli regime in the region has been characterized by the Abraham Accords which you have extensively written about. These accords ushered in this new and quite frankly frightening era for the Middle East were diplomatic relations with
00:12:19
Speaker
the Israeli regime grants all kinds of privileges including weaponry from the US. Now prior to October 2023, Saudi Arabia was actually poised to be next in line to normalize and it seemed like negotiations were speeding along. What happened there and what's likely to happen in the coming years, particularly noting that you mentioned that polling data where 96% of Saudis now oppose normalization?
00:12:48
Speaker
Right, so the issue of Saudi normalization is a very interesting one because most of what we do here about this comes from US sources and it comes from Israeli sources. And I think Israeli sources in particular have always wanted to make it seem like the Arab states are on the cusp of normalization that they're just about to or that they want to in this case and that they're willing to do it cost free. Now this was the case for the UAE and Bahrain and largely Morocco and Sudan who
00:13:16
Speaker
entered these accords without really ensuring anything for the Palestinians. It was cost-free in that sense. But Saudi, for its part, has at least at the formal level maintained the commitment to a two-state solution and maintained its commitment to something for the Palestinians, even if that might fall short. Now, of course, there are differences between
00:13:38
Speaker
what a country sometimes declares as its formal policy and what it's willing to do, in fact, and what it's negotiating behind the scenes. But I think it is notable that Saudi Arabia hasn't yet backed down from this. And whenever asked by media sources, Saudi officials repeat the same thing. I mean, it's been the case since the start of these talks. Whenever they're asked this question, the answer is always the same. We won't normalize
00:14:03
Speaker
without progress on the Palestinian issue or something akin to a two-state solution. And I think this is significant because it does show that as much as there is a lack of clarity around this, there is still some level of commitment to Saudi achieving something for the Palestinians.
00:14:21
Speaker
It's not exactly the way Israeli media and Israeli officials portray it, which is that Saudi is ready to sign tomorrow. I think on the other side of it, there are also questions around US commitments. I mean, Saudi Arabia has asked for a lot in return for normalization. They've asked for nuclear know-how, they've asked for advanced missile technology, and they've asked for something akin to US security
00:14:43
Speaker
hacked from the United States. Whether the US is prepared to deliver all of these things to Saudi in exchange for normalization is another open question. So I think even before October 7th, there were a lot of
00:14:55
Speaker
real gray areas around whether Saudi was prepared to go ahead and really go the full route. I think it's worth pointing out that Saudi also has a lot to lose if that's the case. It does risk its kind of moral authority as the leader of the Arab and Islamic world. There's a possibility that of course relations with Israel would inflame
00:15:16
Speaker
its existing tensions or its relationship with Iran. Saudi has been committed to de-escalating with Iran most notably in the past year. So I don't think they want to see that be reversed through a new relationship with Israel. So what I'm getting at is Saudi has a lot to think about. It's not that straightforward. It's not that clear-cut.
00:15:36
Speaker
And I don't think a deal was really as imminent as Israeli and Western officials made it seem. Now, post-October 7th, I think it's even less likely. I think Saudi Arabia has to be conscious, and it is conscious of popular sentiments, not just within the kingdom around this, but within the broader Arab and Islamic world. And so this is definitely
00:15:59
Speaker
one area where we do see an impact on an Arab government where that as a war has impacted the decision making of an Arab government. One of the things that I've read that or I've seen Saudi officials doing is sort of framing normalization as strategic, not only for Saudi Arabia itself, but also for the Palestinian people. So they sort of frame it as a mechanism for leverage to achieve Palestinian rights or to move closer to a Palestinian state.
00:16:27
Speaker
I don't think it works if you come into this and say, OK, we're going to establish the relationship and then later we're going to use it as some kind of leverage or later we're going to use it to secure something for
Egypt's Diplomatic Dilemma
00:16:39
Speaker
the Palestinians. That clearly doesn't work.
00:16:42
Speaker
Ilham, I won't move us along because we haven't talked about Egypt yet. And Egypt plays quite a significant role. Not only has it normalized diplomatic relations with Israel several decades ago, but it's also complicit in the siege of Gaza through the Rafah border. Now, we've seen some mobilization in Egypt, noting, of course, that it's an incredibly repressive environment for political protest.
00:17:06
Speaker
but we've also seen on a diplomatic level a lot of pressure placed on Egypt by the US and by Israel and there have been rumours that Egypt will be forced by the US and Israel to re-house forcibly expelled Palestinians from Gaza in the Sinai.
Yemen's Solidarity Actions
00:17:23
Speaker
Now Egyptian President Sisi has denied these rumours, not out of love for Palestinians, but rather because he has his own security concerns in the Sinai.
00:17:33
Speaker
What do you think about Egypt's role in all of this? And do you think that the level of outrage of the Egyptian people could have some kind of influence on government policy?
00:17:44
Speaker
Again, like all other Arab countries, we haven't seen that happen yet. And it's not clear where the threshold lies. Egypt has been under pressure, certainly. So has Jordan, to open its borders and rehouse, as you say, or voluntarily resettle, as the Israelis say, the Palestinians. It has not been willing to do that yet.
00:18:07
Speaker
Again, it's not clear if that changes down the line, but so far that's the case. And again, Egypt's official position towards Israel really hasn't budged in spite of populist pressures on it to do so.
00:18:21
Speaker
So perhaps we can turn finally to Yemen. Now Yemen has historically been a big support of Palestine. The Yemeni people have been hitting the streets over the last few months in their hundreds of thousands and Yemen has also taken direct action in
00:18:39
Speaker
opposition to the genocide in Gaza by disrupting the shipping lanes in the Red Sea. A lot of people in Palestine obviously feel like this is the kind of thing that other Arab regimes should be doing, disrupting and really making the world pay a price for their complicity in the genocide. How is this action that Yemen has taken seen across the region?
00:19:06
Speaker
Yemen's action has been pretty extraordinary. It's one of the poorest Arab states. We all know that the conflict has been going on since 2015. It's in a dire humanitarian condition, and yet the Houthis have been able to pretty successfully impose a blockade on Israel, which no other Arab government or country has been willing to do.
00:19:24
Speaker
As a result of that, we have seen a lot of support for the Houthis from across the Arab world. Their popularity has risen. So has Hamas' popularity. One of the polls I cited earlier, the one by the Washington Institute in fact, found a four-fold increase in support for Hamas within Saudi Arabia.
00:19:45
Speaker
I'm sorry for emphasizing the Gulf States a bit too much, but that's the area that I usually cover. And so this is one area that people have done, I think, positively moved by. It's seen in the context of sort of global solidarity for the Palestinians, also what we've seen with South Africa bringing the case to the ICJ, Namibia supporting that, Bangladesh supporting that.
00:20:08
Speaker
And so I think there is this fascinating sort of emergence of the global south as a point of solidarity for the Palestinians beyond just the Houthis and Yemen. And I think the US-UK-led bombardment of Yemen in response is very telling and really reinforces perceptions.
Domestic Instability Linked to Palestinian Liberation
00:20:26
Speaker
This is Western support for a settler colonial state facing resistance, not only from the Palestinians, but from the Arab masses and elements of the global south.
00:20:36
Speaker
Thank you, Ilham. And I think this is really a turning point in the region. I think there's no going back from this. I think what people are increasingly realized from Jordan to Bahrain to Yemen is that the Palestinian struggle for liberation is inherently tied to their own liberation, support from the US in countries such as
00:20:56
Speaker
Jordan in many of the Gulf states is really only benefiting a very small minority of the population, you know, the elites. And so people are recognizing that the situations that they're in, the hardships that they're facing, the authoritarianism that they face is ultimately tied to the Palestinian people, to the Palestinian people's struggle. And this is something that I think a lot of the Arab regimes are worried about, that this will spill over and cause
00:21:24
Speaker
instability domestically because for so long these regimes have really tried to isolate Palestine to make the Palestinian struggles a sort of single issue cause or to use it really as a political pawn and people are I think refusing that understanding of Palestine and what the struggle for liberation means.
Political Representation and Civic Protests
00:21:49
Speaker
Absolutely. I think this is circling back to the issue of a lack of representation in the Arab world. This is really tying everything together. And I think if you look at Bahrain, it's a very good example. I mean, people are out on the streets, they're protesting the war in Gaza, they're protesting the US base, but they're also asking questions around their own government's policy, which they were not consulted in.
00:22:10
Speaker
Why is Bahrain participating in the naval effort to patrol the Red Sea? Nobody has been consulted on this issue. And so yeah, what we're seeing in Gaza very much ties into right now the lack of representation across the Arab world.
Conclusion: Supporting Ashabaka and Further Insights
00:22:25
Speaker
Okay, Elham, thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Rethinking Palestine. We'll leave it there, but we hope to have you on again soon. Thank you, Yara. It was great to join you.
00:22:40
Speaker
Rethinking Palestine is brought to you by Ashabaka, the Palestinian policy network. Ashabaka is the only global independent Palestinian think tank whose mission is to produce critical policy analysis and collectively imagine a new policymaking paradigm for Palestine and Palestinians worldwide. For more information or to donate to support our work, visit al-ashabaka.org. And importantly, don't forget to subscribe to Rethinking Palestine, wherever you listen to podcasts.