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Ireland's Solidarity with Palestine, with Brendan Browne
159 Plays10 months ago
Brendan Browne joins host Yara Hawari to explore the historical solidarity between the Irish and Palestinian peoples, and discuss how the Irish government's policy towards Palestine fails to reflect grassroots demands against the Israeli genocide in Gaza.
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Transcript
Effective Support: Beyond Vocalizing for Palestine
00:00:00
Speaker
It's easy to stand up on stage and be seen to be a vocal proponent and a vocal supporter of Palestine and to express your disgust, but it has to yield actual results. There has to be some kind of commitment to boycott, divestment and sanctions. There has to be some kind of consequences with having Irish universities partner with Israeli institutions that are engaged in providing the apparatus that supports the war. There has to be some kind of wider
00:00:27
Speaker
consideration of Ireland's links to Israel.
Ireland's Rhetoric vs. Action: Will They Recognize Palestine?
00:00:34
Speaker
From Ashabaka, the Palestinian Policy Network, I am Yara Hawari and this is Rethinking Palestine.
00:00:45
Speaker
Last month, the Irish government announced that it would intervene in the South African-led genocide case against the Israeli regime at the International Court of Justice. The government, alongside Spain, Belgium and others, has also announced its readiness to recognise the state of Palestine.
00:01:00
Speaker
Irish Prime Minister-elect Simon Harris delivered a strong speech at the beginning of April 2024 where he said, Prime Minister Netanyahu, let me say this to you this evening. The Irish people could not be clearer. We're repulsed by your actions. Ceasefire now and let the aid flow safely. This hasn't come out
Irish-Palestinian Historical Solidarity: A Deep Connection
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Speaker
of nowhere. The Irish government has delivered consistent critique of the Israeli regime since the beginning of its assault on Gaza last October.
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Speaker
However, many in the Irish Solidarity Movement have felt that the rhetoric hasn't been strong enough and is not reflected in action and policy. Indeed, there are deep historic connections between the Palestinian struggle for liberation and the Irish struggle against British colonial domination.
00:01:42
Speaker
These connections have transformed into a vibrant solidarity movement, which includes trade unions, student groups and political parties. Joining me to discuss all of this today is Dr. Brendan Brown, interdisciplinary scholar at Trinity College Dublin. Brendan has taught courses on international humanitarian law and transitional justice and has for over a decade worked on various projects related to Palestine. Brendan, thank you for joining me on this episode of Rethinking Palestine. Thanks for having me on.
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Speaker
I think that many people take this connection between Ireland and Palestine for granted. Could you tell us a bit about the history of the struggles and the affinity for one another? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you're right. People look at Ireland, certainly the most vocal European nation when it comes to standing in solidarity with Palestine.
Collaboration of Resistance: Tactics Shared Between Movements
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Speaker
and there are reasons for that. We in Ireland have our experience of resisting colonial violence. We've had over 800 years of experience of British colonialism next door. We've engaged with various struggles over time and we have experience of issues that Palestinians are all too familiar with.
00:02:50
Speaker
forcible transfer, forced displacement, being starved through Angorto Mor, the great hunger that we experienced in the mid 1800s, which was a colonial act of violence. So we have that natural empathy then when it comes to standing in solidarity with the Palestinian cause, those Palestinians who have experienced, as I say, much the same in many ways. And that
00:03:13
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That solidarity has manifested itself in many ways throughout history.
Diplomatic Pioneers: Ireland and the PLO
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Speaker
We've seen that resistance movements in both Palestine and Ireland have actually come together in the 60s, 70s, into the 80s and discussed tactics, discussed anti-colonial resistance, have actually broken bread together.
00:03:33
Speaker
in Lebanon, although that is a really closely guarded secret. I mean, if you want to try and get information on that, it's nearly impossible. I've tried to do so. And one area that we also have very close connections is the prisoner movement.
00:03:49
Speaker
Irish Republican prisoners have been in constant conversation with Palestinian prisoners and I know vice versa as well. Recently, for example, just to give you an example, recently upon the death of Sheikh Khadr Adnan, there was a letter of condolence sent from the Bobby Sands Trust, Bobby Sands being one of the most famous Irish Republican prisoners
00:04:13
Speaker
And that letter of condolence was sent to Sheikh Khadr Adnan's widow to express solidarity with the family and with the struggle. And actually during time spent working at the Al-Quds University in Palestine, I was invited to come into the Abu Jihad Museum on
Concrete Actions or Empty Words? Ireland's Political Stance
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Speaker
campus.
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And I was invited to look through some of the prison archives and some of the communications that have been smuggled out of the prisons. And during my sort of analysis of those of that archival material, I did see the words Bobby Sands written amidst the Arabic. So these connections are really strong. They're really ingrained and they're really, really important.
00:04:54
Speaker
What I would say is that the Irish government back in the 80s was also one of the first governments to recognise the PLO. It also was one of the first governments to call for greater engagement with the PLO on an international stage as well.
00:05:11
Speaker
There is precedent for Ireland taking a lead when it comes to high level diplomatic efforts. And I guess that's maybe why in the present moment there's a little bit of false hope, I would say, when it comes to the role that the Irish government is currently playing, but not what it may play in the future. And I think that's also critically important.
00:05:36
Speaker
I think it's remarkable how many Palestinians of a certain age know Irish revolutionary songs, and you'll find these people in the most, the unlikeliest of places. And I think for a lot of Palestinians, even if they don't know the full history between the two struggles, they know that that affinity is inherent
Peace Process Models: Ireland vs. Palestine
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Speaker
in them. They know that the Irish people have supported historically and continue to support the Palestinian struggle.
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Speaker
Whilst Ireland and Palestine share a lot of similarities, some of them you mentioned earlier in their experiences of colonialism, there are also a lot of differences. And I think there's one particular area where comparisons have actually been detrimental to the struggle for liberation in Palestine, and that's of peace and reconciliation. Can you explain why that is?
00:06:25
Speaker
Absolutely and maybe I think it's also worth saying at this stage that in my experience when Palestinian comrades and colleagues look at the Irish experience it's almost like it's been a liberatory moment in Ireland but what I would add to that is that it is a partial
00:06:42
Speaker
liberatory moment. Ireland remains a physically divided island and I think that's important. The six counties in the north of Ireland remain part of the wider United Kingdom subject to British colonial oversight and I do think that we need to really pay attention to that. But what I would say is that the north of Ireland, I mean I grew up
00:07:02
Speaker
in the North of Ireland during a period of time known as the Troubles, albeit in the middle of the Troubles. But I did experience what that looked like growing up in a space of active conflict. But I also have been lucky enough to have transitioned out of that conflict and now live in a much more peaceful, albeit segregated, I would say, peaceful existence in the North of Ireland. And it's our peace building process.
00:07:31
Speaker
that I think is important in our context, very significant. It has meant that we now don't see each other as enemies in terms of Catholics and Protestants. We now enjoy the same rights. We now enjoy the same access to the labor market that was different in the 60s. We now enjoy the same access to education.
00:07:52
Speaker
the same ability to travel freely, all the things that were obviously restricted at the start of the trouble. So we have a peace building process in the north of Ireland that, whilst deeply flawed, I would say is in many ways successful at the same time. You know, it's a bit Janus-faced in that regard.
00:08:11
Speaker
Whereas peace building in the context of Palestine, as everybody knows, has been nothing but a ruse, has been about concession, has been about implication and pouring tonic on any sort of sense of Palestinian rights and liberation. So that is one of the major differences when you view the Irish peace process and you view it alongside peace building attempts that have been trialed in the context of Palestine and actually
00:08:37
Speaker
One of the areas that is particularly problematic is the exportation of a Northern Ireland peace process or a model into the context of Palestine. It's a highly problematic thing that says this is the way that you are meant to bring about peace in your space and it's very, very decontextualized.
00:08:57
Speaker
I think that's some of the key differences when it comes to Ireland and Palestine that need to be more fulsomely understood and interrogated. And what's remarkable is that we do see a lot of attempts that literally try and copy paste the Irish experience of peace and reconciliation onto the Palestinian one. And as you've so articulate pointed out, it's just that doesn't work. They're two different contexts.
00:09:23
Speaker
Absolutely. I think people long for, and rightly so, I believe, people long for something that works. They want the model. They want to hold on to something. And who in their right mind is going to say that peace building is problematic? That you come across as some kind of
00:09:45
Speaker
lunatic if you say that, you know, but actually you're weaponizing peace building when you try and impose it upon people without there, without, you know, addressing lots of structural issues in the room.
00:10:00
Speaker
And I mean, in our own context in the north of Ireland as well, we have made great attempts at engaging in sort of people to people type projects on the ground in Belfast. You know, I was a product of these products, but
00:10:16
Speaker
Whereas in the sort of 80s and 90s, they didn't really work as well because the wider political reality wasn't addressed, the wider structural problems weren't being addressed. We were just being brought together to sort of talk to each other and assume that that would be enough to trickle down and build peace. What's happening, and we have, as you've pointed to, what's happening is people are bringing that
00:10:39
Speaker
model of contact theory, people
The Rise of Irish-Palestinian Solidarity Movement
00:10:42
Speaker
to people processes, as you've written about yourself, Yara, in the past, and bringing them into the Palestine context and saying, look, if you only talk to each other, things like this will get better in the future without actually saying, well, no, we need to radically look at the way society is structured here. We need to look at the militarized nature of Israeli society. We need to look at the rights that you enjoy and that I don't enjoy. So I do think it's really important.
00:11:07
Speaker
The last point I would make on that, and maybe this is a bit cynical, is that it's become quite a big business. It's big industry. You know, exporting the peace process from Northern Ireland has seen a proliferation of NGOs who've made this their modus operandi and exported it to other conflict zones, not just Palestine, by the way, but to other spaces. And I think when you do that, you kind of
00:11:32
Speaker
You flatten power dynamics in a way that is deeply, deeply problematic. And I really wish people would stop doing it.
00:11:39
Speaker
Oh, yeah, if I wanted to start a project or an NGO on the peace building and dialogue in Palestine between Palestinians and Israelis, I would get a ton of money. And yeah, I mean, peace building has become such or peace itself has become such a dirty word in Palestine, because from our experience, it's been used as this mechanism to obscure the reality between Palestinians and Israelis as occupied and occupier.
00:12:03
Speaker
And aside from that, it's also been shown time and time again that these dialogue projects in Palestine don't work.
00:12:11
Speaker
And I don't want to come across as dismissive as well, because in my context, in the north of Ireland, there is space for these projects to be successful now because we have parity of esteem, because we have a situation where I'm no longer a second-class citizen, because we have a political roadmap that says we can all reach what we want through consensus collectively, and therefore I'm able to engage in these type of
00:12:40
Speaker
people to people projects on a level. Whereas that, as you said, isn't the case in Palestine. And there are a lot of these people to people projects in the north of Ireland that are happening sort of under the radar that do incredible work.
Activist Community Challenges: Disagreements and Fragmentation
00:12:55
Speaker
And so I think that's important when we look at the Irish context. But again, it just shows you how sometimes when you compare to two spaces, you can lose the nuance in the middle, let's say.
00:13:08
Speaker
Brendan, I want us to focus a little bit now on the solidarity movement. As you've already said, the historic solidarity has resulted in what is today a vast and diverse Irish-Palestinian solidarity network that transcends the border that divides Ireland. Can you describe to us what this network looks like and the kind of work that it does? Yeah, I absolutely can.
00:13:34
Speaker
I'll start, I mean, as it is, as it seems, everybody is at the moment, I'll say sort of pre-October 7th, let's say, and the solidarity movement in Ireland was already vibrant. Your introduction talked about trade unions, talked about academic links.
00:13:49
Speaker
whatever else. We also in the past would have had some really incredible individuals who came over to Palestine, people I know who were on the flotilla back in 2007, 2009 I think, other people who've been engaged in NGOs and helped set up partnerships between Irish universities and Palestinian NGOs and Palestinian universities.
00:14:11
Speaker
And there was an Ireland-Palestine solidarity campaign that exists that was set up to coordinate all of our advocacy for Palestine pre-October 7th. Post-October 7th, the advocacy and the activist community in Ireland has exploded. You have a whole range of different groups that have been set up to advocate for various aspects of Palestinian liberation. Now they focus on
00:14:41
Speaker
certain areas specifically. For example, you will have health care workers for Palestine as an organization that was set up. You have a group called Mothers Against Genocide that was set up in Belfast.
00:14:54
Speaker
you have a group called Gales for Palestine, which is the Gaelic Athletic Association showing their support for Palestine. So again, mostly done in coordination or under the sort of banner of coordination of the Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign. So I would say it's extremely active. It's very vibrant at its height. I think we had
00:15:18
Speaker
I mean, I can't remember if this is December, but the dates are all a bit of a blur. But I think we had almost 200,000 people on the streets in Dublin protesting on a Saturday.
00:15:28
Speaker
and demanding an end to what was going on in Gaza and demanding that our government really pushed forward with tangible tactics to hold the Israeli government to account. So I would say it's a really vibrant community. I would say that their intentions are excellent and really, really good. I would also say at times, like any activist solidarity collective, you have
00:15:54
Speaker
disagreements over tactics, you have disagreements over language, you have disagreements over you know what to do next and I think at times that that leads to a little bit of fragmentation but I suspect that happens everywhere in the world but by and large the solidarity movement in Ireland is there, it's growing, it's really vibrant and it's really impressive.
00:16:17
Speaker
If you're enjoying this podcast, please visit our website, al-shabaka.org, where you will find more Palestinian policy analysis and where you can join our mailing list and donate to support our work. Brendan, you recently wrote a piece entitled, Reading Irish Solidarity with Palestine through Ireland's Unfinished Revolution for the Journal of Palestine Studies. And in it, you talk about how this grassroots organizing that you just mentioned
00:16:45
Speaker
is not, the sentiment is not reflected at a policy level in Ireland. And we have seen comments from the Irish government condemning Israeli actions in Gaza, but it's not been as radical as many would like. Can you talk us through this disconnect between the grassroots and the policy level?
00:17:03
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I was speaking to Palestinian friends recently who were getting really, I think, quite excited about the language that the new Irish Taoiseach Simon Harris came out and used the other day when he said, Netanyahu, we are repulsed by your actions and demanding that it be led into Gaza. I mean, it is very strong as a rebuke, right? It's a very, it's very strong language and it's very strong rhetoric, but it's just exactly that. It's rhetoric.
00:17:33
Speaker
And actually Francesca Albanese, the special rapporteur who spoke at the University of Galway recently said the Irish government have a strong reputation of standing in solidarity with Palestine. However, it is very clear that that is rhetorical or that is a rhetorical stance. So she actually called it directly as well. And she called it out and she said, these are just words if they are not met with concrete actions.
00:17:59
Speaker
And at the same moment when he was using that language, his party voted down a bill that would have prohibited settlement produce from being sold in Ireland. So you can see the disconnect there.
Political Accountability: Demands from Sinn Féin and Beyond
00:18:13
Speaker
It's easy to stand up on stage and be seen to be a vocal proponent and a vocal supporter of Palestine and to express your disgust. But it has to yield
00:18:24
Speaker
actual results. There has to be some kind of commitment to boycott, divestment and sanctions. There has to be some kind of consequences with having Irish universities partner with Israeli institutions that are engaged in providing the apparatus that supports the war. There has to be some kind of wider consideration of Ireland's links to Israel if you are actually that repulsed.
00:18:49
Speaker
So words are words are just words if they're not matched by actions, as we all know. And I mean, he's not the only one. Mihal Martin, the Irish foreign minister, may be saying some strong things at the moment, may be saying things along the lines of we want to now push forward to recognize a Palestinian state. But it wasn't too long ago that Mihal Martin was in Israel pointing at a hole in the sky.
00:19:15
Speaker
on that Israeli Hasbro mission post-October 7th when everybody was saying, can you not see what this is the pretext for? So when it comes to the activist community, we take a lot of the rhetoric with a pinch of salt when it comes
Ireland's Symbolic vs. Concrete Support in Global Issues
00:19:35
Speaker
to the government.
00:19:35
Speaker
Now, the Irish government is one thing, but the Irish political spectrum itself is broad, it is diverse. You have other political parties in Ireland that have also been very vocal when it comes to holding Israel to account, when it comes to standing with Palestine, one of the largest Republican groups on the island. The largest Republican group on the island, Sinn Féin, has a long and proud history of
00:20:01
Speaker
standing in support of the Palestinian people, but even they have been challenged by the activist community as well to say they're not doing enough.
00:20:09
Speaker
And they were asked very clearly recently to not send political representatives to the White House on St. Patrick's Day, which is a tradition in Ireland. And we asked them, we demanded that they don't go over and inoculate Genocide Joe. And unfortunately, they didn't pay heed to us on the ground. And that has caused a fissure, that has caused disconnect between a lot of the activist community and Sinn Féin. And also, you know,
00:20:38
Speaker
The Israeli ambassador still resides in Ireland, is still giving airtime on our national radio stations, on our national TV programs to spite off some of the most ludicrous stuff as well. So there is that disconnect. You can see that words. Talk is cheap. We need to see actions. So the Irish government has committed to one particular action and that's intervening in the in South Africa's case at the ICJ.
00:21:07
Speaker
Do you think that that might be a signal of more bolder action to come? Well, I'm trying to find the balance between being a complete cynic here, right? You know, I don't want to be that person all the time. But OK, on the one hand, that's a good move. That's a symbolically important good move.
00:21:30
Speaker
And we have we have called for that. We've been demanding that the Irish government joins the South African case way at the beginning, right? Way at the beginning, when it became clear that South Africa was going to bring this case to the ICJ, we were calling on the Irish government to support it and do all it can materially to support it. It seems now that when, you know, all the cases being presented, when the evidence is there, whether it's very, very clear
00:21:55
Speaker
when most of the legal commentators in the world and some of the most learned scholars on this area of genocide and international law have said, look, this is a pretty clear cut example. I mean, it's a pretty safe bet, I think, then to join the case as well. And again, listen, I'm pretty sure that Ireland, somebody may correct me if I'm wrong here, but Ireland is joining the case as a conglomerate of states. It's not just Ireland on its own. I believe it's Ireland
00:22:24
Speaker
Spain, Belgium, maybe Malta, as well as sort of as a block within the European Union are going to join. I think I may be wrong on that. So to find that balance of cynicism, I'll say, yes, that's a positive thing. But that type of
00:22:41
Speaker
That type of case needs to be mapped by other concrete actions on the ground, those that I've mentioned before. I would love the Irish government to fundamentally look at all of its partnerships with Israeli institutions, with Israeli commercial deals that it has, in much the same way that it did when Russia invaded Ukraine.
00:23:02
Speaker
in much the same way because it shouldn't be the case that you apply double standards here if you're going to apply something you apply it writ large right if you're going to come across this if this is your line in the sand apply your line in the sand equally and fairly and equitably so yes on the one hand it's a good it's a good move but let's let's see more let's see more
00:23:25
Speaker
And really important to point out that as you've done, that Ireland does have these various leverages that it can use to create more pressure, you know, commercial and trade relations, diplomatic relations. But unfortunately, we're not seeing that kind of action.
00:23:41
Speaker
just as we're not seeing that action from other European states and actually from very few states around the world. So it's really about sort of creating that level of pressure that will translate into action. And I think it feels like the global political climate is seriously deteriorating. And that's probably the understatement of the century. But how do you see these solidarity movement adapting to this climate?
00:24:07
Speaker
You've actually pointed out something really important there that I've missed that I would just like to add is that Ireland also has a history of being very vocal when it came to the anti-apartheid movement in the 80s. So it's not like we have to dig too far in our historical past to look for precedent as to what to do. You know what I mean? Ireland has experiences of cutting ties with an apartheid state.
00:24:31
Speaker
And it has experience of not trading with an apartheid state, of not handling apartheid goods, of not engaging in sporting activities or platforming cultural events, or looking fundamentally at university links with South Africa. So the blueprint is there, right? All you have to do is to move along with it and to say, look, how can we use that in the present moment? Because as you know,
00:24:56
Speaker
the language of apartheid has become extremely normalised when it comes to discussing the reality on the ground in Palestine. So we have that framework, we have that language.
Global Solidarity: Ireland's Role Amidst Vulnerabilities
00:25:07
Speaker
I would just like the Irish government to use it again more fulsomely. And Brendan, just to interject there, why do you think that's not happening? Well, that's a really good question, Yara. Why is it not happening? Because, I mean, I think
00:25:23
Speaker
Palestine is an exception. I mean, we know that in the global sphere. We know that there is exceptionalism when it comes to the Palestine case. We know that Israel does get a softer ride at times for a variety of reasons. But I do think that tide is changing. I am hopeful and optimistic. And I do think
00:25:42
Speaker
I do think that this Irish government won't be able to ignore the demands of the activist movement because one thing I would give everybody hope here, we're not going away. We haven't shrunk as a collective. Our marches are still there. The Ebb and Flow in terms of their size over time, as you expect.
00:26:01
Speaker
But I tell you this very clearly, our advocacy doesn't. We have a day of action next week across the island of Ireland in the university sector where people are coming together to walk out of the universities and do other direct actions to hold teachings, to platform Palestinian voices, to talk strategy. So our advocacy grows even if the optics are being on the street ebbs and flows at times.
00:26:26
Speaker
I don't know why the Irish government isn't doing this. I suspect it's because of this exceptionalism that does seem to happen in lots of different places. But can you imagine how powerful it would be if Ireland was that country in Europe
00:26:43
Speaker
Because I think the domino effect that would happen would actually be quite significant. And, you know, as I said, the Ireland is part of a smaller group of European nations that are having these conversations around strategy and what to do and how to come together. So, you know, nobody nobody likes to predict things in the future. It makes fools out of wise men.
00:27:07
Speaker
And I think Ireland is well placed to play that role in Europe to create the domino effect, not just because of the historic solidarity, but because of its current vibrant Palestine solidarity movements. So we can only hope that that might happen. And as you said, the tide is shifting. It's just how far it will go. And I think that's something yet to be seen.
00:27:29
Speaker
And the other point, but I would say sometimes we need to look at Ireland with less through the romantic, wistful, you know, rose tinted glasses. I mean, there are issues in Ireland when it comes to a sort of rising sense of a far right presence. You know, Ireland has an awful record when it comes to asylum and people who come to Ireland seeking asylum fleeing
00:27:57
Speaker
fleeing other theatres of conflict and they end up in a thing called direct provision. I mean Ireland itself is not the easiest place to live comfortably and well if you don't earn above a certain amount of money. It is not a socialist utopia by any stretch of the imagination and we have one of the highest cost of living
00:28:16
Speaker
in Europe, I mean, trying to get a house in Ireland, you know, is really, really, really difficult. I have students of mine who talk about sleeping in their cars because they can't afford student accommodation. So I wouldn't want Ireland to be viewed as a, you know, utopia of post-coloniality. And if anything, there's a lot of work to be done in Ireland. And actually that is where we have
00:28:40
Speaker
a lot to learn from our other struggles around the world and certainly from Palestine can teach us that and we can come together and find out ways that we are transnationally vulnerable. There are ways that we are connected that we should maybe be more sensitive to when it comes to
00:28:59
Speaker
when it comes to growing our movement, which is the question you asked me, how do we grow this movement? I think we need to find ways that we are vulnerable together, how we are all interconnected, how empire impacts us, how neoliberal development impacts us, how the global north and the global south divide, how that is becoming much more stark, and how we want to combat that, because I don't think that serves
00:29:23
Speaker
any of us in the movement.
Hopeful Future: Global Activism for Palestinian Liberation
00:29:25
Speaker
It obviously serves other people very well but it doesn't serve us as activists in the movement to have that sort of level of divide. So in Ireland we will continue to grow, we will continue to do our advocacy work, we will continue to learn and hopefully grow alongside our comrades in Palestine and work towards what will be inevitable Palestinian liberation.
00:29:48
Speaker
I think that's a nice thing to end on. So Brendan, thank you so much for coming on this episode of Rethink in Palestine. Thanks for having me.
00:29:59
Speaker
Rethinking Palestine is brought to you by Ashabaka, the Palestinian policy network. Ashabaka is the only global independent Palestinian think tank whose mission is to produce critical policy analysis and collectively imagine a new policymaking paradigm for Palestine and Palestinians worldwide. For more information or to donate to support our work, visit al-ashabaka.org. And importantly, don't forget to subscribe to Rethinking Palestine, wherever you listen to podcasts.