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What Are Super Trail Shoes? | The Run Testers Podcast
2.2k Plays11 months ago
This month on the podcast the team is talking about super trail shoes: what are they, what are the benefits and are they worth spending your hard-earned money on?
We'll also be talking about loads of other stuff, from our current training plans to the latest products including kit, running shoes and tech.
Perfect for that Sunday long run.
Big thanks to Fear of Tigers for the killer intro music. You can listen to more of his stuff over at https://www.patreon.com/fearoftigers
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Transcript
Introduction to Super Trail Shoes
00:00:05
Speaker
Hey, Tommy from The Run Testers, and welcome back to The Run Testers podcast. In this episode, we are talking about super trail shoes. So those are the shoes that have a lot of the features that you might find in super road shoes, like carbon plates and special foams, but applied to the trails. So we're going to be talking about what they are, what they do, and if we think you actually need them. We'll also be talking about all the training that we've been doing recently, the races, and some of the kit that we've been testing over the past few weeks.
00:00:34
Speaker
So let's dive in and do the podcast.
00:00:53
Speaker
I'm tired, man. Yeah, I'm tired. The kids, the kids are tiring. Well, let's save that for the parenting podcast. I do want to hear about your dog Tom, which is scared of you. So I'd like everyone to know that your dog is scared of you. Oh, well, it's not really impacted my running yet, but I kind of get to leave the house. I'm not going to get to do park run yet. I quite love the fact I spent most of last summer running away from
00:01:22
Speaker
dogs that you've just taken into your home. And I'll bring them over. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, it's a bit of a weed. It's just a bit of a wimp. Um, you're scared of everything.
00:01:35
Speaker
All right, let's talk about running then.
Nick's Training and Race Insights
00:01:37
Speaker
So, Nick, what's going on with your training and racing at the moment? Oh, I mean, everything's going really nicely now after, you know, some injury niggles start of the year. I mean, I'm fully fit. I have trained pretty consistently for the last few weeks, got into decent shape, ran well at Brighton 10K, solid 3318, which wasn't, you know, was pretty good in windy conditions. Might have sneaked the England Masters vest off the back of that. I don't really know how that whole thing works, but if I'm my age, now I'm an old man.
00:02:03
Speaker
I might be in the age group for it. But yeah, it was good fun that we both run that menu Tom very interesting 10k with, you know, bits that were about half very much into the wind about what 30 miles an hour then half with it which meant closing K I was absolutely flying because it was with the wind but it was pretty hard to judge at times.
00:02:22
Speaker
Yeah, that's what we did the video about it. But it's a nice it's a nice course that and a lot of people come down for it because on a good day is probably one of the fastest races you can do. But on a bad day, which is most of the time when you're racing on the south coast.
00:02:39
Speaker
It can be an absolute nightmare with the wind, but I spoke to a couple of people who got PBs afterwards. It was a brilliant field because it was intercounties and this England qualification race for old people, so that helped. But the intercounties mainly, like everyone ahead of me, pretty much was in the county vest. It's not often I come to a race where I was looking for you
00:02:58
Speaker
later on because there's only one real switchback where you could see the faster runners. It took quite a while for you to appear. Yeah, I was 30th. I mean, that's any kind of moderately serious race that's about what I'll be. I'm not that good at running. But yeah, it was a
Qualifying for England Masters and Future Races
00:03:19
Speaker
good field. It meant I had people to run with into the wind and stuff like that.
00:03:22
Speaker
And also, how does the Masters work? What do you get if you get into the Masters? So my friend is really into this because he's one of the best V45s in the country. He loves it. So basically, there's like five races to turn up at. If you're top three in your age group of people who have registered and haven't already qualified, you have the chance to compete for England in that race distance, in some Masters race next year. I think it's Birmingham or something like that. But I was fifth V35. It's not like I was top actual three, but
00:03:50
Speaker
Probably a couple people ahead may not have bothered to register or have already qualified. So there's a chance but you know, it's it's not It's not it's I don't want to overdo it It's not exactly very prestigious But it's a nice little thing to start aiming for as you get a bit older. I think this one nice and anything else coming up
00:04:07
Speaker
Well, I've got a couple of fun little run-throughs next month, probably. I'm going to try and go to Dorney Lake and pace a mate to a championship half marathon time, but mostly just trying to get lots of little races in, keep the speed up and think it's not, you know, London next year is the big target for me when hopefully I'll be sleeping a bit better. I'm still waiting for my Good 4 Age notification to come through. Are you still waiting for yours, Karen?
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, actually, I don't think they haven't fully tipped it off of there yet. They're still... I've seen a couple of people post about it on social, but I think it must be dribbling out the responses. I've only opened Championship. Yeah, I think they're quite loose. January, it all starts to kick off a bit
Kieran's Training Pause and Marathon Plans
00:04:44
Speaker
more. Well, let's move on to you then, Kieran, as you already go. Yeah, I'm just pooling about at the moment, really. A couple of weeks back, I kind of hit a point where I felt like body needed a bit of a rest. So I've taken the gas a little bit from doing
00:04:58
Speaker
long, long, long runs and just been enjoying getting easy miles in, you know, just go out and run for as long as I feel, come back. But I've booked in a few races for next year. I'm going to do the Manchester Marathon. I've got, I'm going to go back to the London Landmarks half. If London let me in, if I get that all clear, we'll do London as well. And then I'm just having a huge debate at the moment. They just opened the Comrades places again, the registration. And obviously the Comrades
00:05:27
Speaker
You basically only half finish the race if you've just done one direction. You're supposed to go back and do the up run if you've done the down, the down if you've done the up and you get a special medal going back to back.
00:05:36
Speaker
And that's like, I don't know, there's a big part of me who wants to go back and do it again, but I don't know. Just wondering whether I can square it with the family or the cost. Didn't you take the family last time? I did, yeah. Yeah, but that's what I mean. I don't think I could take them again. Nice. Yeah, I don't know. It's also school time for my son. So last time we had him out a couple of days early from school. I really want to go back and
00:06:02
Speaker
feels like a box unticked you know literally when I cross the finish line of the comrades someone because you did you did the easy easy one well yeah yeah i don't know yeah they sort of say they're both about the same but they basically all the south africans will say well don't you finished you know you finished half the comrades right so quite keen on tourism yeah yeah you've got a quarter of it round
00:06:26
Speaker
I mean, if London Marathon really wanted to ramp up the registrations, just make it to do it a different way every year. Finishing quite a lonely park in Greenwich, a bit different to the mouth. It's good for age, like Boston, where they only select the fastest ones first. Even now, it's 3,000 of each gender and it's fastest first. And I think they take into account age group a bit as well. So I think of Boston, I don't know if they do that, but it's quite complicated.
Challenges in Marathon Starting Categories
00:06:57
Speaker
You are both quite a long way under the time, I think, aren't you? I am, yeah. So it probably would be a problem. Championship is a hard cut off if you're under the time you're in, definitely. But good for age, they take, they have to have even, they try to make it even basically between genders and age groups I think, I believe.
00:07:12
Speaker
I really don't like a good phrase start because it's utter chaos as a result because there are people that have qualified with like four hour marathons. Fair enough. They're older people. It's a really good time. But it doesn't mean that the first mile is carnage because there's people coming from the red start who are trying to run like two forties or something from the normal start who haven't had a good phrase time before. Good phrase people are aiming for like 230 and then there's some that are aiming for 430 and it's just really cluttered.
00:07:38
Speaker
because normally I don't have to bother with that. Obviously I'm ahead of all of it, it doesn't matter. But like when I ran with Jill one year, I was pacing her a sub three, it's absolutely savage. Like the elwowing that goes on, especially in the first few bits of London where it's very fast, but it downhills. I found it quite, yeah, quite intimidating almost. Nice. What's worse though? That's worse though. That's worse at the good for age. Because actually you could be, if you've run really well, sort of six months, seven months before, and then you turn up,
00:08:05
Speaker
off the pace. You're that person who's kind of in the way. Yeah, yeah. Being in the way is not a problem. It's more the aggressive people coming through who decided, even though I've only ever run this today, today I'm running 240 and I'm going to go and catch up with the elites for a bit and that kind of thing.
00:08:21
Speaker
So it is a bit, it is quite crazy at the start. What's the difference in where you start? So you've got the elites obviously at the front, then you've got the championship, then you've got the good phrase. You filter straight in. I think there's two good phrase, some start from one start and some start from the same start as the champ. So elites you see, from the championship you've got the pen, you see the elites, you filter in, there's a couple of thousand championship runners and you can see the good phrase queuing behind you and then I think behind them,
00:08:49
Speaker
some good for age behind you and then there's some good for it and then there's I think it's the fastest non good for age start as well is there so it all goes pretty fast but I could be wrong I think things did move right when I
00:09:01
Speaker
When I started from the mass start, pen one, I think I was there behind Good for Age and Elite and Champs, but I might be wrong. It was a while ago and it's hard to remember where all the runners are. Good for Age is carnage. If you've done Manchester the week before, Kieran, you're going to be people flying into you from all sides.
00:09:22
Speaker
I assume you're going to be doing a marathon every day between the two. I might just say I might run it down. Yeah, it might run from Manchester to London. Might as
Training Adaptations for Marathons
00:09:29
Speaker
well. All the good stuff. Get on the canals. Yeah. No, I think I found that they were actually sometimes if you do one the week before, a week later, rather than being overtired, you can actually get a bit of a bounce. But it depends how fast, how serious you go on the first one. Running a quicker marathon the week after running and all that marathon.
00:09:45
Speaker
I've got Boston the week before and I'm going to be going all out on it. You could run an acceptable marathon the week after, but you're not going to be in PB Shep if you've absolutely flogged yourself and gone all out the week before.
00:09:56
Speaker
I'll take the bet. I'll take the bet. Well you might run quicker Bob saying if you were in peak shape for Manchester and went for it, you wouldn't be in peak shape a week later. You're aiming for the first marathon. What are you going to go for? So three in it? I honestly, I'm not sure. I mean I'd like to go back to that if I can this year. I need to get sort of, I haven't trained for the sort of focus for a marathon for a while. It'd be nice to get back to that and try and do that in Manchester, yeah.
00:10:20
Speaker
Cool. We'll see. I'll make if I if I'm in PB shape Nick I'll take the bet to try and do a PB in Manchester and follow it with London Yeah, all right. I'll take that that definitely when I did Berlin when I PB'd in Berlin around London with later You know, I was fine to go and cruise a sub 3 and I could have I reckon I could have run like a 240 But I was in no shape to go again like all out I can feel my bones bruising things like that and I'd know I left it all out there. I
00:10:46
Speaker
If you leave it all out there, you can't go a week later. I don't believe it. Well, the challenge is set. Yeah, PB2 is in a row. Yeah, that's good. That's a good challenge. All right. Well, what have I been doing? Well, I did the race review of the weekend. I did about a half marathon on Saturday. I am not very fit at the moment in comparison to where I was in Berlin. So I've got quite a bit of work to do.
00:11:09
Speaker
just did track and blind me, that was a struggle. So yeah, I need to get back on it now, because I'm going to start Boston training in January. Is that going to go harder? Training wise for Boston. Yeah, is that your big target next year or? I think I'm going to do it a bit differently. I'm going to try and get a PB, but it's really hard in Brighton to train in the winter. Yeah. Because the parks, I do all my training in the parks, I do intervals in the parks, just do laps
00:11:39
Speaker
And I can't, you can't do it in winter because it's just too, even if with a headlamp on it, it's just too dangerous doing intervals and stuff in the middle of a dark park. What about seafront? Get down on the seafront, that's well lit, right? Well, the seafront, only a bit of it, so you've only really got like 3k, so you've got to go back and forth on that. But the problem with the seafront is, and you've found this at the weekend, is that it is really, really windy.
00:12:02
Speaker
most of the time so it's really hard to do you know when you've got to do like a tempo run at marathon pace yeah half with the wind half again it's pointless you should know you don't know if you're doing it yeah obviously you can't maintain the pace so it's really difficult to do so i'm gonna i'm gonna try and do it
00:12:17
Speaker
more about long runs and some shorter interval sessions as opposed to, I mean, I was doing like an hour and 45 minute, you know, try the treadmill. A lot of people use little treadmill action. Not a chance. I can't handle that. I can handle 30 minutes on the treadmill max. And I've not done that for about four years. Fair enough. Yeah. I get too sweaty. Just dripping everywhere. It's horrible.
00:12:39
Speaker
Well, I might do Amsterdam next year. You see Rotterdam sold out on the back of Kiptum. That'll be the Sub 2 marathon probably. You'll probably do a marathon the week before, get in shape, go all out and then go do Sub 2. Done the thing this year, do all the marathons. Well, we're just working out, I'm going to do Valencia next year. I'm going to do a loud marathon to Valencia next year. Nice.
Testing New Running Gear
00:13:01
Speaker
We worked out the half term.
00:13:03
Speaker
A compatible marathon is Amsterdam. So I might be doing right because you're not doing that one. Yeah No, never done it, but it's you know, it's on the train there I can go with the family without taking out of school, but yeah might work might work. Don't see how London goes really I've never actually really nailed London because I find it quite a hard race to pace so I'd like to do that okay, well, let's briefly dive into testing at the moment and
00:13:39
Speaker
What have we all been testing that is interesting? It's the big watches at the moment, isn't it? It's the big catch-up watches from Suunto and Polar who've really tried to stick it to gone and basically kind of come back at them with the Suunto Race AMOLED screen, long battery life, great price, great materials, and then the Polar Vantage V3. Not a good price, but a really nice AMOLED screen, a nice lightweight design, maps, you know, multi-band GPS. Both of them have got pretty accurate GPS, especially compared to what we've seen in the past from Polar.
00:14:09
Speaker
Both really good watches. I've enjoyed using them. I have had my problems with them. One Polar's gone back not to Finland because that's going to cost me 70 quid. I've had to send it back here within the UK because the screen broke and then the Suunto last week ended two activities just of its own accord, including the Brighton 10K where it just decided at 5K. That'll be that. I went back to say it's like those are little annoyances and otherwise I think brilliant watches. You've got them both as well, Kieran, right? I think they're really good, but those are quite big annoyances.
00:14:35
Speaker
Yeah, and I think you're not alone in the polar. If you go online, there's quite a lot of people in forums saying they've had troubles with watches just basically freezing, not updating. My polar has had real struggles staying connected to the phone and syncing the data. So the fact that you have to kind of full sync it anyway, but often it's just forgetting that it's been connected to my phone, having to go back and do the pairing all over again, all of that kind of stuff.
00:15:01
Speaker
But beyond that, actually, and I think they're a little slow in terms of the response sometimes, but overall, I've quite enjoyed it. Yeah, I think the Souto mic's got a really... I think they're a bit variable. I think mic's got a really laggy one. Mine's very laggy on the Amazon, like it takes a second, but other than that, it doesn't lag. It's not as quick as an Apple Watch, but it's not really worse than the Garmin's too much.
00:15:25
Speaker
I don't know. It's one of those things where they're introducing all these features, and they've got them all pretty much right. But Garmin's had these features for a year and a half, and they've just honed them and honed them, and everything works. But it's really positive signs, I think, all around, apart from, I do think that the Polar's pricing is just
00:15:40
Speaker
In the same way I find it weird when a brand who doesn't make carbon super shoes comes in and makes a shoe that's more expensive than the Vaporfly, it's like, okay, well, why would people buy it? It's like when if they come in and they price it the same as the 400265, which is such a good watch and well-established, and has more features, it's just like, it's really hard to see people going for it. But I do think they're great watches apart from the
00:16:05
Speaker
issues that need to be ironed out. This second pilot I've had has had no problem so far. The first one, the screen just completely went like it. You could see it flickering, then it went and now it won't turn on and I've still got to send it back actually. But I do think positive signs overall in a watch market that's got a bit overly dominated by Garmin, which is great for Garmin and they're making great watches, great for people who buy them, but it doesn't mean they could have
00:16:25
Speaker
prices got a bit crazy at the top end. So it's good to soon to have come in very cheap, I think, very cheap for the watch. It's a smart move by them to come in and basically they can sort of draw some people back just by getting people talking about the value. Essentially, it's a little bit for me, it's a little bit like what Coros did with some of the cheaper end.
00:16:42
Speaker
watches. They actually used it as a hook, really. Although it seems like a massive insult to people who bought the Suunto Vertical, which is not very cheap, which is very similar to the race, but hasn't got the screen. I mean, it's got to be massively reduced in the Black Friday sales, I noticed. But yeah, it's quite surprising they didn't go with that pricing strategy on that watch. All right. Then any shoes that we've got floating about? Kieran's with an Overblast 4. Oh, that's a big one. The Green Menace.
00:17:10
Speaker
Yeah, that came in a couple of days ago, so actually yesterday took it out and did the first run yesterday evening, did a sort of 10k sort of mixed pace in that. And of all the people really out of all of us to get it first, probably I'm the person who sort of has liked the Nova Blast least I think over the generations. I wasn't convinced I was going to like it, but I think they've, I actually think on my first impressions, they've improved it. I think they've done
00:17:34
Speaker
To me, it's a little bit more responsive. It's a little bit firm and they take it away a bit of the, what I call the sinky softness of it. It doesn't, you know, I think some of the Nova Blasts, they didn't, you're sort of waiting for them to come back. Every time you sort of landed, this just picks up a little bit quicker. There's a little bit more immediacy in it. And overall, I dare say, I actually enjoyed it. I don't know though, whether I'm just, you know, back in the day when we tested the early Nova Blasts, whether I always ran in shoes that are a bit more,
00:18:03
Speaker
not minimal is the wrong word, but less shoe. And now all shoes are going towards big. So maybe I'm just being converted. But last night, actually really quite enjoyed the Nova blast for and I think it's, it'd be interesting. I'm going to looking forward to putting it up head to head to all the other ones that we've seen, you know, the
00:18:19
Speaker
cloud eclipsed in the nimblest, the 1080s. I think we took a fair bit of stick for none of us really liked the Novbloss 3 that much. I had a great first run in the Novbloss, I will say this, I had a great first run in the Novbloss 3, Kieran, and I didn't like it after that. I never liked it.
00:18:35
Speaker
No, so I think overall we, as a channel, I think have been quite soft on those bars, quite down, apart from the very first issue, which Tom loves so much. But Cloud Clips is quite interesting. I've been enjoying that. I don't know if I'm crazy. It feels firmer than the Cloud Surfer, despite it being twice the height of the same foam. But I don't mind. It's got the speed, but the speed was right at the bottom. That can't be making it. It must be a different tuning to the foam because I first, out of the box, I used it for like a fast session and I've been using it since and I've been liking it.
00:19:04
Speaker
The one reason I do like it is because it is a bit firmer, but it just seems weird that it's that high and doesn't feel very soft like the cloud that surfer does at half the height, but considerably less height. Yeah, I've enjoyed it as well. I think actually it's, if they're aiming for that sweet spot between the surfer and the monster, I think they've kind of ticked it. Yeah, so far what I've done in it, I've enjoyed it. Yeah, it feels probably more like a rocket monster to me than a
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah, the phone doesn't feel like the surfer to me and not in a bad way. I've liked it, like I say, but it feels like a very much a rocket firmer shoe, which is kind of the shoes I'm liking the most at the moment. It's a higher stack height than the cloud surfer. Yeah, it's massive stack height, but I think because it's such a high stack, I guess they couldn't make it as soft because it would just kind of collapse in. It would be ridiculous if it was the same as the cloud surfer.
00:19:55
Speaker
It is a good shoe. I feel like one's had a good year. I mean, the Cloud Mecco is really good apart from the fact it falls apart, but it didn't fall apart. Big question. And then I just think they're missing that killer middle ground all rounder shoe, like kind of the super trainer style, which, you know, things like the Cloud Flow are just all kind of a bit, I don't think of it samey. And then they've got very good cushion shoes, which are good daily trainers, but I think they're missing their endorphin speed still, which is a hard shoe to make. Yeah. Okay. Anything?
00:20:23
Speaker
coming up that we're excited about, which we're hopefully going to test soon. Well, we don't know anything about it, but Alpha Fly 3 should be coming up soon. That will be exciting. That will be exciting. And the new balance, obviously, the SC Supercom Elite 4 is dotted around in Britain. I've sighted it in Britain, but we don't have it, I don't think. Looking like it's going to be a bit softer than the 3s.
00:20:45
Speaker
It looks like they've got very aggressive geometry as well. It looks a lot like the Adios Pro 3, if we're being honest. But the phone will be, it's Piba phone by all accounts. So it'd be interesting because New Balance does love to just say, yeah, it's fuel cell, but it's completely different material, everything. Yeah, we'll just call it fuel cell. It's just mid-cell, isn't it? It's mid-cell. It's mid-cell, yeah. I mean, it's a racing mid-cell. It's all you need to know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. Okay. Well, I've just bought some Alpha Flies, Waldens. After our discussion on,
00:21:14
Speaker
Yeah, we brought them out anyway for Brighton. Really good shoe. I got my mates bought them as well. I was a bit tempted, but it's just silly, isn't it, for me to buy carp. Well, you start getting me worried because my alphabets, I've just done tracking them, and after the Brighton Take A, they're just squeaking loads, and they're sort of giving up halfway, so I can sort of bend them too far. Oh, right. If you snap a plate or something.
00:21:35
Speaker
Well, I don't know what's going on with them, but they but when we had that chat I was thinking I can't these these are gone now so I'm gonna have to get another pairing because we don't know what the outfly free is gonna be like and Probably be decent let's be honest. I don't know. I really like the outfly one I think there's a lot of like a lot of rose tinder stuff at the time like people didn't like the outfly. Oh, it's no one near as good as the outfly. Now the outfly was best you ever made. Now if only we could get hold of them. It'll be the same. Everyone just likes looking back.
00:22:01
Speaker
Well, not the Alphi 2 though, are they? Not many people are saying that's the... That's what I mean, but then, you know, you still set a world record. I think people will probably, maybe that'll be the shoe, like two years' time, people are desperately trying to find an old Nike sales because it's no longer the current one. I need to get that one as well, fingers crossed for some sales when... People are looking back at shoes that they set all their PV's in, obviously. I know a lot of people who still think the original Alphi 4%
00:22:24
Speaker
Definitely the best one. I love that shoe, but I don't think it is as good as anyone's. No, no, no. Very tinted glasses. Cool. All right. Well, why don't we dive in and talk super trail shoes?
What Makes a Super Trail Shoe?
00:22:47
Speaker
Okay guys, so we are talking super trail shoes, a type of shoe that's come about over the past couple of years, which to be honest, I'm not 100% sure on the classification of it, but hopefully we'll be able to shed some light on it here. Let's just kick off, Nick, you seem to be the man who talks about these more than anyone else. What is a super trail shoe?
00:23:08
Speaker
Well, I've just tested a lot of them this year. You're just putting super in front of loads of different words, don't you? Super's a good word. It's a good word. It's the same way. Super trainers, super shoes, everyone knows what those are now, like the Vaporfly, all that, carbon plate shoes, soft bouncy midsole phones for the road. Super trainers use a bit of that in training shoes, super trail shoes,
00:23:28
Speaker
use some of that tech for the trail. So we're talking carbon plates, midsole foams that are bouncy, high stack, unusually soft for trail shoes, and they basically they get trailified these things. So the carbon plate might be forked, it might be a bit more flexible, it might be dual plates like in the hookers and the midsole foam will be bouncy, but it will be contained because
00:23:46
Speaker
we bounce all over the place on an even ground and you're coming down a mountain. So it's basically elements of that become very popular in road shoes that have been adapted for trail racing shoes, which also means they can then stick a massive price tag on them equivalent to the road shoes, which again is unusual for trail shoes, which I don't know, as far as I could ever tell, they're always reasonably cheaper compared to the top road shoes. Okay. So with super
00:24:10
Speaker
road shoes, it's pretty obvious why they came about and what, what, well, originally it was quite obvious why they came about and, and what they, what they're aiming to do. What are super trail shoes? What is the focus for them? Is it the same as road shoes? Are they just for racing and running fast or is there other benefits or is there another focus for them? Karen, do you want to hit that one? Yeah, I mean,
00:24:29
Speaker
for me it's that the benefits are largely kind of the same you're looking for it's a similar promise you want shoes that are going to help you run longer faster more efficiently saving energy that's essentially the promise it's essentially the same as the road shoes but you're doing it on the trails and i guess what they're doing with some of the carbon plates in the in the trail shoes they might be looking at different ways to provide sort of that that spring effect but also looking at making them
00:24:56
Speaker
soft and pliable so they'll move in two planes of motion basically you get that kind of stiffness going from kind of heel to toe but there's also more flex when you want to move side to side so you're not losing the ground field that comes with them but overall they're just they're designed to help you run with efficiency over the terrain same as a road. Okay and do they work? Do they have those benefits when you're using them? Now this is a trickier one because the road shoes very much and I think the trail shoes
00:25:24
Speaker
do, but in certain circumstances like we are UK based runners, most of my racing is done on soft ground and I struggle to really see the benefit of them there compared to when I have done longer runs on harder ground, then you do start to get that feeling a bit. You certainly don't get the same sink in bounce wow factor you get with a road super shoe, which is obviously
00:25:46
Speaker
has no real concerns about stability it's all about just sink into this bounce off this off you go fast as you can because you're running on flat tarmac i think the concessions you make with trail shoes to make them safe and useful on uneven ground mean that you lose a lot of that impressive benefit but they must be doing something right and then certain terrains i think certainly think they do something but i think it's less obvious to me i know i don't know what you guys think it's less obvious i'm using them that i'm in a super shoe i think
00:26:12
Speaker
I mean, we'll talk about the different ones that are out there at the moment and which ones we think are good. But I think that I've tested quite a few of the carbon plate trail shoes now.
The Role of Carbon Plates in Trail Shoes
00:26:23
Speaker
And what I notice about them is that with road shoes nowadays that have carbon plates in, they sort of have different purposes. And I remember when the first, was it the flight Vectiv that came out?
00:26:35
Speaker
and that was like the first attempt or it wasn't the first one because we said it was the first one a lot of people said it was the first one but there was another one for I can't remember what it was
00:26:44
Speaker
But that was really all about speed on the trails. But since then, I find that a lot of trail shoe or brands that are making trail shoes tend to say different things about what the purpose is of them. Sometimes people are talking about the carbon plate actually being more of a protective thing and a stability thing when you're on the trails. Some of them talk about it being a speed thing. It's quite difficult to work out why. I think there's a tendency for a lot of companies just to put a carbon plate in trail shoes, just because it's obviously people think
00:27:14
Speaker
It's really good on road, might as well have one for the trails. But it's very unclear to people. I imagine a lot of people know why they're getting the carbon plate in there and they're probably not using it for the purpose that it's designed to do. So yeah, I mean, I think that in some cases the carbon plate can be used to add stability. That is part of the properties, depending on how they're tuned.
00:27:38
Speaker
The weirdest thing I think with this on the trail is it's almost like with the road, you kind of want to feel it. You want to know that it's sort of pushing you forward in that kind of straight plane of motion on the trails.
00:27:48
Speaker
It's almost like the best, I think the best play to choose are going to be those that almost feel a bit more natural. You don't necessarily notice it as much. You don't want it to be that really kind of pronounced feeling. And so one of the ones that I think it probably isn't at the top of the kind of glamour list of all of this, but one that almost feels very subtle is the Tech The Next 2, which I think does add something over the speed go. It's not a huge difference.
00:28:11
Speaker
but it does add extra but in a way that to me kind of feels sort of comfortable and natural without it being overdone. If you look at some of the shoes where they've you know the vectors I think are an interesting one where it maybe feels a little bit more aggressive and in different terrains a lot of people have you know picked up the fact that the plate feels a little bit interrupted if it causes problems when you're
00:28:31
Speaker
going uphill you can feel it coming through it's uncomfortable all of those kind of things so for me it's going to be a bit of a weird one because you almost don't want to know that it's there on the trails you just have to be able to feel like everything's still moving.
Design Challenges of Super Trail Shoes
00:28:45
Speaker
I feel like almost the best ones like you say disappear on certain trails but then come back when you hit like a runnable stretch almost it's like yeah it's not in the way when you are on those tricky bits and you're worried about instability but
00:28:56
Speaker
then you hit a nice flat stretch. Well actually now I do get this bounce or whatever it is really. I was just going to say I think the difference as well for the trail shoe manufacturers is it's probably a much harder remit to try and pull this off. There's so many different parts to consider to actually get it right.
00:29:14
Speaker
I think it's going to be a tough crowd to please as well. But to get it right, I think it's quite a difficult piece of design that's needed here. Yeah. Some of the ones that have been most successful have targeted almost specific races and know the exact terrain they can work on. But to try and make a generalist trail shoe is so hard. And the foams, I think, is the big problem because the foams
00:29:32
Speaker
are actually probably one of the biggest factor in the road shoes, and you simply can't put a really soft foam, like some of the softest ones on the road on the trails. But then I think maybe people are starting to think that you maybe just can, just by some of the recent ones. But yeah, we'll talk about it in a minute. But I feel at some point we're just going to end up with very similar to the road shoes and just like take your risks and hope for the best. Yes. That's also interesting because there's been times when I've been testing these and
00:29:58
Speaker
they're not necessarily described as road to trail shoes but I think a lot of these shoes do fit that bill and you you can be running along tarmac and compare it to a shoe you've a road shoe you've been testing recently you're thinking actually this trail shoe is better than it's better than the road shoe I've been testing. Yeah my friend did the Brighton 10k in the Tarka Tekton X and she loved it thought it was absolutely fantastic and that's sort of where I suppose Tekton X and Tekton X2 a good example of
00:30:26
Speaker
a shoe that really does tick a lot of boxes across different trails, but I wouldn't ever use a Tekton Expert, you know, really technical terrain or anything like that. But it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because I think a lot of these shoes are very much focused on those long, dry, sort of American
00:30:46
Speaker
mountain type dry valleys and stuff like that where you're really getting an experience that's like the road and you're not too worried about mud and stuff like that. What I found with a lot of them is that I've run across the Downs, it's wet, it's muddy, it's boggy and they just have no benefit whatsoever when you're doing that. They're not bad, they're not actually causing a problem, they just don't offer any benefit
00:31:12
Speaker
And when you're thinking about how much they cost and you think, well, I could have done this same run in a pair of 60-pound shoes, it's a bit pointless having that in for most people or a lot of people. It's a tricky one in the UK. I did an ultra in Epping Forest last time when I was here. I used the ADAS Nike Super Trail shoes during that and really loved them both.
00:31:32
Speaker
The terrain was pretty friendly, somewhere in the forest, and a guy was running in vapor flights. So that's kind of it. But I also think how benefits do they are. And when you talk about things like technical terrain, a lot of that depends on the runner and their level of experience. When I was in Chamonix for the ADS launch, I was doing little descents. It's not something I do a lot of. I'm not a very good descender. I am skitter heights. So those shoes are probably not going to be the one I would use there, but you see all the pros just gliding down them.
00:31:57
Speaker
pet, there's a photo of a petter angle angle for essentially at right angles to the floor because the shoe is turning so much is so soft and carried on running was fine. So I guess maybe if you really know what you're doing, you can use them on those and any kind of terrain. But as a novice for that kind of thing, I would steer clear of them on really, really tricky stuff.
00:32:15
Speaker
Okay, so if we were, if push counter shove and somebody asked us what makes a good super trail shoe, what do you think you would say are the good things that you would say you'd need in a good super trail shoe? I mean, for me, it's like all the good things that in a regular trail shoe you're looking for, you know, it all still applies. You want control, stability, protection, you want the ability to be precise and feel the ground underfoot, all of that stuff, I think,
00:32:41
Speaker
it's still very much here. And then I think when you want to let go and you want to be able to, you hit a runnable section, this is where you want to feel a little bit of that kind of extra efficiency. But you know, you need to have all of those first, those sort of former things before the latter, because those are the most important things when you're moving over the trails for me.
00:32:59
Speaker
So they basically have to do more than a super road shoe, because a super road shoe, the purpose, unless you're talking about these sort of daily super shoes, the main purpose for most super road shoes is speed, right? And efficiency. They sacrifice stability. I think the other big thing that super trail shoes have, which is much harder, is the range of distances. Some of them, they've got to be comfortable, because you're going to be in them for 24 hours, something like that. Whereas road shoes are geared up towards the marathon, and those will also be useful for road ultra marathons.
00:33:28
Speaker
Yeah, you know, there's, does that consider as well? And then that makes it really hard to make a trail shoe that is brilliant for that ultra marathon purpose that I would use as someone who mostly does short distance trail races where the weight just isn't good. I want, if I'm using a trail racing shoe, probably weight is the biggest factor, I think, for me on the trails. And these tend to be a bit geared more towards longer stuff that are a bit heavier actually than the shoes I race in on the trails.
00:33:59
Speaker
Okay, well, let's dive into the actual Super Trail shoes out there. What would you guys say are the Super Trail shoes that exist at the moment, which are the good ones, the ones that we rate and we think they're worth getting? Are there any? Yeah, I think, I mean, we all quite like the Tekton X2, right? I don't think it's a WoW shoe. I actually would say I'd probably get the Tekton X for less. I don't think there's been much of an upgrade from what I saw, but that's a pretty solid all-round shoe.
00:34:27
Speaker
But I'd say there are two that stand out for me this year I've tested. And one is the Asics Fuji Speed 2, which didn't go after, I think, the profile of a road substitute. It went more after the profile of a road of a daily trainer super shoot. You know what we call them? Super trainers. It feels a lot like things like the endorphin speed and that kind of thing. The foams. I didn't realise it had a plate.
00:34:47
Speaker
Exactly, yeah, it's got a plate and it's the second version of the Fuji Bezoo carbon plate. I think it originally had a nylon plate, maybe the first version, and it's got a really nice rocker. It's got a fairly fun for a good outsole. I wouldn't use it potentially now in the forest, but could use it throughout autumn, even it was quite muddy.
00:35:02
Speaker
it's a lot cheaper than that's the thing it gets priced like a super dress it's $160 instead of 160 quid or instead of 250 and the one that i do think comes the closest to feeling like a road super shoe i've tested is the ada's terrix agrovik speed ultra which is still in prototype form although i think it is more or less what they're going to release next year and the reason it feels like a road super shoe is they've made the fewest
00:35:24
Speaker
concessions to the trails in that they've got a huge stack of Light Strike Pro foam, got the energy rods in there that are plastic, so they're a little bit more pliable, and a really aggressive rocker, and it doesn't look a lot like a trail shoe. It's got a decent, constant rubber outsole, but they've just gone, you can run on this on the trails. Whereas lots of other brands, even Nike, wrapped the Zumex foam and made it a lot heavier and more stable than their road racing shoes. ADAS kind of just went, it is a
00:35:49
Speaker
this is like our road shoes for the trails. And it does have a really bouncy, booming feeling at times. But at the same time, the rocker's crazy. There's a very narrow pinch point on it that looks so worrying. But at the same time, people are running UTMB in these shoes and everything, and they're fine. But yeah, that probably comes back to that level of experience. Karen? Yeah, I mean, I only recently got the Fuji Speed 2. I've only done one run in them. But I quite like the fact that they're pretty precise. They're nice and nimble.
00:36:18
Speaker
And I think they've got like a faster nibble ride, which I like. I think for me, when I'm looking at these shoes, most of the times when I'm running on the trails, I'm not really looking for, I think it's another really important thing about the carbon shoes. It's like, if you think about road shoes, everyone's looking for that little marginal gain to get to a PB hit certain times. I'm never really running that way on the trail. I'm always basically, I need a shoe that's going to help me sort of be able to go for longer hours, sort of ultras. And I'm not going to be running fast. I'm going to be running fairly slow.
00:36:48
Speaker
And for me, the best shoe that I found out of that is the Tekton X or the Tekton X2. It's just a nice, easy rolling shoe that does make a difference, although it still feels quite natural. The Effectiv Pro, I was one of the only people who didn't, I don't know, I was one of the people who didn't have any sort of problems with the plate coming up through. And when I did, I did some sort of really technical coastal runs, or really technical, it's technical for me anyway, really quite steep and, you know, cut up and rocky coastal path runs down in North Devon.
00:37:18
Speaker
technical enough. And I found that to be really good for that actually. I really enjoyed the ride in them. So those are another that I enjoyed. I know a lot of people didn't, but I also think that the Vectiv Sky, you've got a slightly lower stack, maybe gives you a bit more control. That people have found maybe a little bit more accessible than the Vectiv Pro.
00:37:37
Speaker
not so many problems with the plate and yeah I haven't run in the Addis that Nick talked about or in fact the reason I'm saying that is all the Nike ones that a lot of people have had.
00:37:52
Speaker
Nike ones are great. We're talking about, we talk about, you know, they're just good cushion shoes for the road. I do think the Nike Ultrafly is the best cushion shoe in Nike's range for any terrain. Obviously, you're not buying it for that price to go and move Poodle around and you're going to buy the Invincible or whatever instead. But yeah, that's a shoe that is such a clearly different approach to what Nike do with their road shoes. It's a heavier shoe, a much more stable shoe, a really friendly shoe. It did my first ever ultra distance runs and it's really comfortable.
00:38:16
Speaker
loved it I found it reasonably gripped pretty well on I was in the gow running and it was some fairly slick like coastal things but nothing crazy again like nothing mountainous and just a really comfortable shoe but yeah it's a shoe so geared towards ultras
00:38:30
Speaker
And even then, it doesn't feel fast. Is this a big difference to just a comfortable cushion shoe for the normal trail running shoe? And so that's the problem with it. I think there's some really good shoes out there, but I don't know.
When Are Super Trail Shoes Beneficial?
00:38:45
Speaker
The only time I use a really fast trail shoe would be when I want to do workouts on the trails instead of on the road, in which case something like the Fuji Speed is great for it. It's a good workout shoe. And then when I'm racing on the trails,
00:38:54
Speaker
nearly always pretty muddy. I think with these carbon plate trail shoes, with most trail shoes we tend to review them in a way that you know you're clear what they're good at and what they're not good at but it's really hard to market
00:39:10
Speaker
a trail super trail shoe what obviously if you're trying to market a you know complex ratio you just say it's fast and efficient and great turnover and all those sorts of things with a trail shoe if you're saying it's just a great trail shoe it's you really need to be specific about what what it's used for don't you it's because uh the the north face ones are a good example because uh the vectiv pro i quite like
00:39:33
Speaker
for basically slightly hard ground. I think it's quite nice. I think it's a nice ride on foremost road conditions. The sky is better on the trails for me, but I don't see any difference between the sky and a non-carn plate shoe. That's where the issue comes in for me. It's like,
00:39:53
Speaker
I'd rather have a speed coat or something like that because I don't need that plate. And I don't think it serves me any purpose on it. And obviously it makes it quite a bit more expensive. Look at something like the Saucony Endorphin Edge. When that came out, that was £200, I think, when that came out. And I remember taking it out of the downs and thinking, I don't notice any difference at all with this. And some of the other groceries I've got that are like £120. So which actually is ultimately the question, are they worth the money?
00:40:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think this is so, every question about are they worth the money is very personal, but this is so much personal. You've got to be right in the right, you've got to find the shoe for the right trails you're rowing, the right distances and all that. And the only one that will be worth it for me probably will be the Fuji Speed as a really good workout shoe in the forest. And if I was doing longer races, if I was going to go and do
00:40:43
Speaker
some of like the Maverick races around the UK in the warmer months. I think that'd be a really good shoe for that for me. And even then it's a push like, so not for me, but that's, you know, that's the personal thing. If you are doing these Western state style terrain races, then I think there's probably quite a lot to them that would make potentially start looking at that price tag. But yeah, I suppose if you look at the spectrum of users across road shoes,
00:41:08
Speaker
Obviously, carbon super shoes are actually a lot more applicable to more people. Obviously, there are people who do marathons who wear Adidas Ultra Boost 22 and stuff like that, that they're not bothered about running the marginal gains. But there are a lot more people that are worried about marginal gains, like Kieran was saying. But when you go to trails, that shifts quite a lot, whereas people really focus more on comfort as opposed to those marginal gains that you're getting. And also,
00:41:34
Speaker
There's durability issues and stuff like that as well. You want a trail shoe that's going to be comfy, last you a long time, and just support you when you're out on the run. There's a very niche thing to market, I think. It's probably quite difficult to sell a carbon plate trail shoe to people. Kiran, you've done a lot of ultras around the world. Is there any dollar mites, say, for example? When you're doing your dollar mites run, the really long one, you're going, I really want to make sure I have a carbon shoe onto that, or what are you thinking about, really?
00:42:04
Speaker
I wouldn't really, to be honest, I'm almost like the opposite. I think that for me, obviously, I'm running it, I'm not racing it. It's going to take me 27 hours. The winners will finish it in 14. I just need a shoe that's basically going to help support my feet in comfort and help me pick my way along the trails. I'm not thinking about seconds and minutes. I'm just thinking about moving in consistent comfort. And if you can get some efficiency, excellent. Can they cope with all the lumps and bumps?
00:42:34
Speaker
So for me, all of these carbon shoes in a way, the way that I've used them, it makes me think of, you know, it's hard sun baked, kind of north down, south downs, but you're not getting anything particularly crazy and steep. Most of it's kind of runnable if you're a good runner and you're pushing on kind of hard, quite compacted ground. That's where I think they would sort of come into their own. But I think it's a really quite hard sell for most people because
00:42:59
Speaker
It's just such a different vibe. I mean, most people don't, I'll say you did a sort of trail race. People don't go, what's your trail race 10k PB or whatever. It's just like, did you finish that, you know, that 160k ultra that you did? Yes. Great. Brilliant. And you're not, you're not looking to shave it offside. And whether the, you know, people, when you get to the road shoes, people can kind of go, well, you know, I took five minutes off my marathon PB and it was down to these shoes. It probably isn't. They probably just.
00:43:24
Speaker
you know, slept better for six weeks or whatever. But, you know, it might be down to some issues. But you know what I'm saying? It's like when the trails, it's just not that measure. And I think it's quite a hard sell for people to say, okay, did it improve me? Is it the marginal gains? Yeah, if you look at that one thing is comfort, but
00:43:41
Speaker
And if you look at the percentages of people racing trail runs and the people racing road races, you've got a partner and all those sorts of things. It's such a very small percentage in comparison to the road side of things. So it is a much trickier sell and there's probably
00:43:57
Speaker
is an argument for there are some people that they work really well for, but it's a very minuscule percentage compared to the wider group of people that are using them. Yeah, you've got to really know what you're doing, the trails. You buy a road super shoe, any marathon in the world designed to speed on the road is going to be, that's your work for it. Whereas
00:44:16
Speaker
You know, the trail one, you've got to pick and choose your battles. And I say, yeah, I think it's one of those things where, you know, most times I felt really enjoyed using those shoes and I've been testing them. Could I be in a road shoe with a decent outsole? Probably. So it's in my terrain doesn't work so well, but, you know, obviously they've had rock plates forever. So maybe they're doing the job of rock plates and adding some protection on those really hard rocky trails that we don't really get where we are. I think that's probably maybe a different manner.
00:44:42
Speaker
Well, I think that sums it up quite nicely. If you're watching this or listening to the podcast version of it, let us know what your thoughts are on Super Trail Shoes. You're probably probably going to get a lot of comments on this with people saying they're amazing. We're completely wrong. Yeah, I'm doing podcasts immediately. But cool. OK, well, I'm sure we'll be covering a few more Super Trail Shoes coming up in the coming months. All right. Cheers, guys. Cheers.
00:45:15
Speaker
That's it from us this month. Thanks a lot for listening. Don't forget to give us a follow on the podcast provider of your choice and head over to YouTube to check out all the reviews and videos we've got coming up over the next few weeks. Thanks a lot for listening. Catch you next time.