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Running Shoe Questions Answered: Points of Shoe 100k Subscriber Special
1.6k Plays3 days ago
The team answers your running shoe and tech questions in this series from The Run Testers.
This week Tom and Nick talk about maintaining fitness between training blocks, how important is shoe drop, strength training for runners and loads of other stuff.
If you have a question about running shoes that you want us to answer on the pod, send us an email to team@theruntesters.com with "Points of Shoe" in the subject line.
Big thanks to Fear of Tigers for the killer intro music. You can listen to more of his stuff over at https://www.patreon.com/fearoftigers
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Transcript
Introduction to Points of Shoe Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Hey Tom here from The Run Testers and welcome back to the return of the Points of Shoe podcast. This is the podcast series where we answer your questions about running shoes, headphones, watches and anything else that you want to ask us about. So let's dive in and see what you've all asked us about this month.
00:00:27
Speaker
ah
Celebrating Milestones and Organizing Challenges
00:00:28
Speaker
nick how are we doing been a while well well yeah it's been a very long time this is uh well the reason we're doing this is because uh it's our 100 000 subscriber celebration yeah we're giving a bit back as as a reward what a treat because we've not done it for a while yeah it's been too hard to organize basically it's tough to fit everything in with the run testers but this is the one of the best things so we should keep doing it i enjoy this Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if for anyone who hasn't listened to Points of Shoe before, and there probably quite a few now because it's been so long since we've done one, we basically answer questions that you've posted to us via our various channels and give you a as as as good an answer as we can give you. But what we will say is that with these, what we try to do is give answers that help everyone.
00:01:12
Speaker
We're not answering specific questions about somebody's... um very, very ah particular style of running and things like that. So we did a shout out earlier for a few questions. I've got a few here.
00:01:23
Speaker
Let's
What are the best headphones for runners?
00:01:24
Speaker
start. Let's have a look at what we've got. As always with the YouTube ones, the the the actual names of the the users are fairly onking. Tom loves reading these. it's almost pointless mckk5585 i think youtube just generated some some users uh um so they are asking if uh money was of no concern which pair of headphones do you recommend to somebody whose priority is sound quality and longevity uh multiple sets of airpods have have crapped out on me after a couple of years i'm willing to spend but they have to last so
00:01:57
Speaker
If we're going, yes, not thinking about fit because fit's all always thinking running. If you're not worried about that, I would always, this doesn't go for Bose because it's not just because they're really well made. They obviously sound amazing.
00:02:09
Speaker
Actually, I don't think last longer than, know, the other top sets, but Bose are really, really good about customer service and replacing headphones and they do that for free or you can pay a low fee to get them replaced if it's been a couple of years and they are pretty durable. They're pretty well made, obviously, and I just think they're,
00:02:24
Speaker
ah Before we started the channel and before I was a journalist, I always had both headphones. I had one set of headphones that basically, if they broke, i always replaced the same thing with them, got them quite cheap. And I think that's they're quite a good company for that all round. So nothing's infallible, especially with running headphones, ah because they're put through a lot.
00:02:38
Speaker
and if yeah And they're obviously very expensive, although i have got some pretty good value ones in the QC earbuds now, which are really good running headphones. Or you can look at the QC earbuds Ultra, which are the top level ones. And again, yeah I you're going to get quite a high level of support if things do go wrong. that's That's a good point. I think pretty much all of the running headphones that I've owned have at some point conked out. Yeah. and they haven't there and And many of them haven't had support to yeah to fix them. So, no, I think that's a good that's a good shout. i mean, it's about to say with any tech, really, isn't it? it's you what The support's more important than... Yeah. Because you can't rely on the longevity of it.
00:03:13
Speaker
Cool. Okay. That's a nice and easy one. Right. Let's have... What have we got here? Some of these are just congratulating us. That's good. So it should be. Read them out.
Can training shoes be used for races?
00:03:23
Speaker
Okay, so Matt Narves says, do you race in the same pair of super shoes you use during your build-up? ah Yeah, I'll use the shoes I'm going to race in. I will use a few times. Even so even when I raced the Met Speed to go Paris recently, that was my second pair. i got a new pair in. I still use them for two or three training runs. I think...
00:03:42
Speaker
i think nearly every shoe performs a little bit better after about 20 30k so and also you have to know you have to know if they're going to cut you or do something weird so one long run one really hard session at least i would say and if you were on if i was on a budget and i was a normal person you know not getting shoes all the time i absolutely just use my race shoes for our training and then racing them i don't i think it's you can i think they're pretty good these days you're able to see apart from the vaporfly three yeah you can ah If you're telling me ripping the heel off, then maybe don't use them at all. But I would um i very happily race in a shoe that has 100, on it and use it through for key sessions throughout marathon block.
00:04:16
Speaker
Yeah, and lot of people probably these days are, because he's not specifically talked about, like, assuming he's talking about training for a marathon and, you know, going up to the marathon day, but a lot of people do a lot more races these days. yeah So um I always, I don't tend to train in my race shoes very much, but I tend to race in them as they build up to a marathon. do loads of races, yeah. Yeah, if I do, And parkruns, parkruns is my main testing area for like lots of new shoes. I'll always use them at a parkrun first because then you really know how they're going to deliver at that pace. And yeah, it's a short distance, isn't it? So you're not using banging out loads of half marathons in them.
00:04:55
Speaker
Okay. In your experience,
Softer vs. firmer midsoles: Which is more durable?
00:04:57
Speaker
this is from Bolt21. In your experience, would you say shoes with softer mid-soles don't last very long and lose significant responsiveness quickly compared to firmer mid-soles?
00:05:08
Speaker
And which shoe foams have the best durability over time? um Yeah, I probably would say that. I think the ones that ones that are really durable are really dense to start with, I think. You've really noticed that. Something like Sockney's Power Run foam, the Kiprun, some of their range is really... and They start really dense and they loosen up a tiny bit, but they don't get super soft.
00:05:29
Speaker
I think it does depend on the foam because some soft foams are built... Like Lightstrike Pro from Adidas is a pretty soft foam, but i think durability is pretty incredible on that. We'll have to see on something like Sockney's new foam, Incredi-Run, which is crazy soft.
00:05:41
Speaker
But I don't know. I don't think, it yeah, I think it was when they first started the Piva Foams, there was definitely that problem with the Vape Fly. It did compress right down. I don't think it's such a big issue now, but yeah, a harder foam, I think a denser foam, I would expect to be more durable.
00:05:52
Speaker
Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, I mean, there's the' shoes that I've got. i've I've actually got a pair of, um but I think, no, like an Under Armour shoe or something. Under Armour and other ones, massive durability. Yeah. So like dense at the start. And I've i've had this pair of shoes there i i because because they're so hard. yeah I use them the gym all the time. They're zero drop and they're really hard.
00:06:11
Speaker
And I've been using them for about five years and they're still like just just going strong. I'm not running loads in them, but they're still they are very, very solid shoes. And and there's ah there's ones in the middle as well. So if you take um you know Brooks Glycerin range and things like that, there's sort of a balance of it. it's um They're going to last a while, those shoes. And they're trying do it Yeah, Boost.
00:06:32
Speaker
Boost is another phone that lasts forever. The Ultra Boost, for all its criticisms, you could run in that for about 16 years without putting a dent in that phone. Yeah, and those firmer foams, you're not really expecting them to do a lot. that You're not getting loads of injuries on them. So you're not you're not going to notice if if the foams are great slightly over time because they're not really delivering that sort of thing.
00:06:49
Speaker
With the raised foams, obviously, you're going to... that that's good Yeah, exactly. yeah It is hard to tell when the shoes are going sometimes with the dense ones. It's more like you just see the outsole or the yeah the upper go. Okay. Got
How does shoe lifespan vary with style and type?
00:07:00
Speaker
a question here from ah Jan Posco, who says, after how many kilometers would you recommend to change your shoe? The age old question.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah, i this this depends completely on the shoe and the runner. So obviously racing shoes, they go a bit quicker, you know, it'd probably be fine, but I wouldn't consider a race. You often had its best past kind of 200, 300 K probably more in your mind than anything, but also really depends you so i'm really light on shoes not just because we have loads shoes to test but even if i take a shoe to a 500k it's a lot fresher than like and first a runner i run with all the time takes a shoe to 300k because i just don't seem to go for shoes because it's probably because a high cadence freezing me lightweight i don't i have very narrow feet so i'm not putting pressure on the uppers there's all stuff like that you've got to consider you're putting less if you're putting less impact into it it will last a lot longer and if you're running on surfaces that are much you know better in terms of either compressing it or ripping up the bottom so
00:07:52
Speaker
I don't think there's a hard number on this. Like we saw Kieran run, what was it? 1000 K in the speed three. And that's just because again, he was using it in a quite a unique way where he maybe wasn't pounding with loads of really fast runs.
00:08:04
Speaker
So it's hard to say. Tom's not going to give a really hard number. Yeah. No, no, I see this crop up on social media a lot where you see some of these brands going, you should change your shoes at at that this number. Obviously, it's a brand saying it. So they want you to change your shoes at a certain point. So you buy more shoes.
00:08:21
Speaker
I think it's there's there's loads of different ways you can look at Obviously, yeah, as you said, it's about the type of runner, what you're doing with it, and things like that. Also, it depends on, like, some people use a shoe for 200 kilometers and then continue to use that shoe for another 300 kilometers in a different way. So, you know, use it as a training shoe, use it as an easy day shoe or something.
00:08:38
Speaker
yeah and Probably not an easy day shoe in most cases, but... Even a walking shoe, basically. Even a walking shoe, yeah. So the durability is a little bit... you know it's different ways of looking at it but if you if you were purely wanted like a hard number it's very difficult to to say especially these days because you know maybe 15 20 years ago where all of the eva phones are pretty similar you could you could have a rule like that yeah now it's it's not really the case garmin actually have a badge so that's think that's like if you if you track your equipment with garmin i think there's a badge that says oh you've run in a shoe past its best something like that it goes even garmin's in on it trying to make you buy new shoes
00:09:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, if anybody actually follows me on Instagram. The beacons. The beacons. I can't be bothered to change it on all of the shoes by the time we go for a run. But I've left the beacons on now and I get an email every couple of months going, you're now at four a half thousand kilometers in your beacons. Still going strong.
00:09:32
Speaker
Still going strong, yeah, yeah. Or maybe somebody's fed that back to New Balance saying these shoes are incredible. Yeah. It's probably one that is sometimes the thing that if you go up a brand's range and you go, why am I paying more for this shoe? Hoke would a classic example. So the Bondi sits at the top of the range.
00:09:46
Speaker
Bondi is, i for me, on um undoubtedly a worse shoe to run than the Skyflow and the Clifton and Mac, which are cheaper. But it probably will be a bit more durable. so maybe you get and it's more expensive. So maybe you get a bit more back there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:09:58
Speaker
Okay, I've got oh we've got a training question.
What should runners focus on outside training blocks?
00:10:02
Speaker
Oh, I love those. This is from Low Michael from Instagram. What would you focus on outside of a training block if your next race isn't for a long period of time, e.g. 30 weeks?
00:10:14
Speaker
You never have a gap from your training block, do you? I would i mean i be training. like I'd focus on getting a good base in. That would be my thing. but if you're talking outside of running... then I would focus on getting your life in order and trying and working out yeah could sleep good sleep and recovery patterns, basically.
00:10:29
Speaker
I'm assuming he's talking about training. So I would say it's... I think with me and Nick's training throughout the year is very different. Mine fluctuates quite a lot depending on what I'm going. But I think for a lot of people, they are probably like me where you have a marathon and then you maybe you have a few months off. and Maybe you do a few races in between, but your your main focus isn't in that.
00:10:52
Speaker
I always say that as part of your block, you need to have a bit of stretch. You bet you're basically treading water for as long as you want to go back into the next training block and go, right, I've still got all that fitness. You may have lost a bit because obviously you're not, you you're not going through the, all the same level of training, but always, I'd always say stick in, make sure you keep like one speed session in a week.
00:11:12
Speaker
one longer session just to keep your you know cardiovascular and your endurance up. um and and and that sort of And everything else is probably just easy runs that you can fit around it. But those are the main ones that I would always say keep in.
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I structure train even if I've not get anything tight. I love structured training. like It's the favorite thing I do each week. But I would say if you're a long way from a block and you're struggling to make motivate yourself to do a structured training plan, that'll be exactly the time where I just join a club and I just run all their runs. And you'll be getting some good sessions there and then non-specific. Because once you start your actual block, you'll probably get quite specific. It's harder sometimes to buddy up with people because you might not be doing the same kind of thing.
00:11:47
Speaker
But at that point, if you're just thinking, I need to a bit of speed, bit of tempo, bit long each week, I'll go and do all those runs with people and I'll just yeah make a load of new friends, new running friends. That would be 100% what I did if i if I had a long break like that.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah. And the thing that I always say, I'm in a very poor period of training at the moment. But I think if you consistently do speed stations, especially with a ah club or something like that, you can see that you're hitting the same times that you were hitting before.
00:12:14
Speaker
if you If you stop... if If you've done a marathon, you've been training quite hard for it and then you stop and you just go into like this sort of easy run pattern, which is sort of what I'm doing at the moment. It's very difficult to see what you're losing over that ah during that training block. So if you if I went out now and did a you know the same interval session I was doing six months ago, i might have dropped about 10 seconds, 15 seconds off of of a my kilometre.
00:12:37
Speaker
um So that's why having consistently running speed sessions, you can keep a tab on that and go, I see, i'm i've still got I've still got the speed there. yeah um And you can start to sort of, obviously, you'll lose the endurance because you're not getting along. and even if you lose speed, at least you're just you're just stimulating those energy systems in a way. And yeah i know it's hard me to do it because, like I said, I've never finished a marathon and gone, God, can't wait for three, four weeks off. I'm always like... I want to run again. I really to run again. Like, I'm like, not at this point, I was not even really running the marathons to get better times. Actually, my time, we're happy with forever, but I have to do the training because really want do the training, at which point well I've got do the marathon then.
00:13:11
Speaker
So, i try yeah say I would say, yeah, just, and most of what my improvement has been down to the last like five years is just the fact I've just run consistently. Like, miles have been logged, speed sessions have been logged.
00:13:22
Speaker
And like, so I'll do a lot of, when you When I just finished a marathon, I'll do a lot of, oh, let's do 20 times one minute on 30 seconds off and five minutes, four minutes, three minutes on, no. And then when it's actual marathon training, it's 1K at this pace. It's targeted stuff. So lots of fartlek, lots of you know time sessions where you can go, oh, in that case, all I'm trying to do stimulate that energy system. obviously to go I'll go run the woods and have a fun session, like running up a hill on one of the reps and then the next rep won't be. But when it's marathon season, it has to be on the track because the reps have to be the same because i want to run this pace.
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, another question from Instagram. This is from JoelB82. What's your top long run marathon training shoe? Oh, um my marathon long runs are very, very rarely.
00:14:03
Speaker
i've I've never done with Andy 20 miles easy, for example. Or maybe like once if I was like on a holiday. and So it's always progression run or second half is at this pace. So in which case I would use a plated shoe of some kind. So probably the Hoka Mac X2 now, or usually I use whatever carbon shoe having to test at that time.
00:14:22
Speaker
So actually a lot of time I'd probably use the shoe I was racing. And if it was, you know, if I just had a rotation, because like I say, I think every single long run I've done with him has always been at least a progression. Usually it's half fairly easy and then half fairly hard.
00:14:35
Speaker
Okay. um Tom, you do, you actually just do long claws, don't you? Well, what it depends what my training block is. it'll be yeah When I was training for Berlin and all of those, ah I needed a ah performance shoe because my but but I'd be doing a 30k run.
00:14:54
Speaker
mean, this is little bit lower level than what you do, but I do 30k run and there may be... 20k of that would be at marathon pace or something like that. So I'd need i'd need to i'd use a ratio for that. i Very different from what I do now.
00:15:06
Speaker
and But even now, when I go and do some some of the longer sessions I've done, so I'm still running as part of this... as part of this fairly weak marathon training block but some of those i have been using that as an opportunity now to use comfy shoes so I'm basically just testing nice easy plodders but I am still looking I still want a shoe that's going help me a little bit I don't want to run the whole I don't want to run 30k in a Bondi something like that there's a difference Bondi catching lot of strays this episode yeah but even like at Morby 5 one of my favorite shoes of time I won't use that for a 30k because now by the time you get to 20k you're like oh god
00:15:43
Speaker
this is she was not helping me very much doing doing this yeah so i agree yeah so i would i would still say now i've got my super blast twos back that would be my that would be my one or the adidas evo sl at the moment so mine would be actually just pure actually think about if i was doing one like say it was more just relaxed I would probably use the Hoka Mac 6, the standard one. I just love that shoe. just ticking over.
00:16:03
Speaker
If it's a little bit more performance, Mac X2. And actually, if it's a really hard long run, the the one I use the most actually during London training and civil training for hard long runs was the Hoka CLO X1 because it's the ultimate fast training shoe, but you should never buy that because it's too expensive.
00:16:16
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:27
Speaker
Okay, another interesting one here, which isn't about shoes.
Why is strength training important for runners?
00:16:30
Speaker
What are your strength and conditioning routines? Are there any exercises that you universally agree are beneficial? How many times a week do you strength train? We did sort of answer so there's a similar to this a while ago. This is from D. Sathayway. I'll be quite quick because Tom's really good at this and I'm abject at strength training.
00:16:51
Speaker
So actually i talked about it in the Civil Marathon video and our most recent monthly roundup, I did more strength training than ever for the Civil Marathon using an app called Running Buddy where a guy just basically mini workouts is what he did. So it's plyometrics before a run, just literally, you know, like single leg hops, that kind of thing. And then two strength moves after a run, just really targeted stuff for runners.
00:17:08
Speaker
The one move I think is absolutely essential is calf raises. I do a lot of calf raises and... If you're worried about Achilles stuff, just in general, you want to get power. And I think what's the most important, basically, I think you start, the importance of running, the muscles start at the bottom, the calf, and get less important as you go up. But it's obviously really important, the legs. And then by the time you get to the biceps, they're not important. on our there So that's what i do and I do. And then I do a lot of yoga, which is kind of vague. And I do i do like Pilates kind of core routines of YouTube. I'm big into, really into Lily Sabree, who's this like, I think she's probably Essex or something like that. I've met her a few times. ah Yeah, yeah. So I love her. I love her little core routines.
00:17:45
Speaker
Anything that's described as like um legs, bums and tons, that kind of thing in a gym, that's absolutely perfect for runners. So would be, what i used to I used to go to, um, David Lloyd is just me and a few like Essex divorcees just knocking out bums and tums for different reasons, I hope.
00:18:00
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah but Tom actually does real strength training and is qualified. so yeah well Actually, mentioning earlier that my you know my running is not really focused very much performance, I've gone the other way and I'm just falling on strength training. not just for running, for overall fitness, trying to put some muscle as I get older. For looks.
00:18:17
Speaker
ah Well, yeah, you've got to get the glamour muscles. But I would say that, so so I have a PT pc now and they they've they deliver my training based on the fact that i'm a runner. and So there's definitely, I have a lot of specific stuff based on things that I need. So calves is something that I always have problems with. So calves is a big focus, but I think it should be for most runners.
00:18:41
Speaker
If you're younger, you're probably less likely to get problems. But as you get older, things like the calves, because they're quite small muscles, you need to sort of focus on those. So I think calves is a really important one. I'd always say that but it's the big it's the big exercise is squats.
00:18:53
Speaker
like Doing squats will work so many different muscles. um you don't what You don't really want to do isolation so exercises too much if you don't need to isolate those muscles. If you're a runner, the chances are you're not doing a lot of strength training, so you're really sort trying to yeah try and tick off the easiest ones to do.
00:19:11
Speaker
yeah um and Those are going to be the big ones. They're going to be squats with weights if you can. They're going to be yeah to like lunges with weights. They're the ones that going to help you as you get older or just you know as you train more, the injury side.
00:19:26
Speaker
interesting is a plyometrics there so plyometrics is really really good but i think plyometrics is more for the performance side yeah hundred percent yeah so if you um if you are you know a general runner you're just you're going out and you're just doing some miles every week uh maybe you know you want to continue to run quite a long time definitely do the sort of heavier strength leg stuff um just to build up your you know ability to not get injured If you're a performance runner and you're really trying to build up speed, you're really trying to build up your explosive energy, plyometrics and stuff like that. But yeah, for me, I think it's definitely, you know, squats, lunges, things like that. And calf raises is a really good one to throw in.
00:20:03
Speaker
Also, it's cool. It's, it is worth doing some upper body stuff as well. People don't do um And, and your body works in unison. So if you're just doing legs, you're not be building up anything in your body, like your back and your chain, your you know posterior chain and stuff.
00:20:18
Speaker
you're going to get, you know, you're running marathons, you're going to get back problems and stuff because you're not training everything. So stuff like that is, you know, pull-ups, pull-downs on the machines, big, big muscles that work a lot of different muscles when you do the exercise.
00:20:32
Speaker
that be my That would be my advice. I would say, yeah. also yeah No, I was just going to say, and then the last bit that you said, how many times a week do you do it? i I mean, it's, you know, you're runners. yeah You're probably not going to be spending loads of time doing strength training a week. I'd say at least one, but aim for two for most people. If you're really serious about it, you'll be doing three, but... um you know Yeah, that's when the micro workouts came into useful for me because basically this guy, he's worth following on Instagram. He gives a load of really good free advice, Patrick Carroll. It's called Running Money He's at. And he said basically the research is out there that now actually these micro workouts, we do maybe four or five a week, but they're around the run. They take about 15 minutes in total before and after the run. you already changed, they add up to the same kind of benefit the research seems to show as doing your two or three proper workouts, which he's also got in the app.
00:21:15
Speaker
But yeah, he the thing they got me doing is he said like the research is it's up to like 8% performance benefit if you do proper strength training and He said a lot of runners also do what I used to do, which is just, oh, I'll do 25 reps with a low weight. So, you know, what you're doing then is you're simulating the effect of running again, get a heavy weight, do some actual like. And I think he has three rules for his workouts where it's just like in the workout, you should contain something directly at the calf, something on one leg, and then performance, something explosive, or you could something or something just heavyweight basically because...
00:21:45
Speaker
yeah So it does it is harder to do at home. and i've I've just got kettlebells. So you basically have to make a way to say, I haven't got enough weight to make a hard squat, but I've got enough weight with a kettlebell to do a hard one-legged squat for me onto a onto a like a surface I have to then step up from. so yeah But if you are now as soon as you get reasonably strong, it's pretty good. You have to go to the gym, I think, really. Yeah, yeah. And then and and just to provide you on this as well, plyometrics, if you're looking at doing like jumping squats and jumping lunges, the certain people don't do those straight away because they're quite demanding. And especially if maybe you you know you're you're an older runner and maybe you've never done those sorts of things.
00:22:22
Speaker
Don't start, yeah. I mean, that's what CrossFitters do. it's there's's It's quite a high risk of injury. You build up to it over time, but definitely start with the static stuff. I did about, I think about a year and a half of calf raises when I had my first Achilles thing and I must have done, you know, and then from there, and now I finally feel like I can do, a single leg hops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. no's not i yeah I used to do them all the time doing CrossFit, but um yeah, they're not fun anyway. Yeah.
00:22:47
Speaker
yeah But a little dose before and after the run is exactly my tolerance for strength training because I would i i will not do it otherwise. yeah Okay. um Let's do a couple more. Bill Lamb says, best non-plated shoe for a half marathon that's relatively budget-friendly? Loads
Which budget-friendly shoes are best for a half marathon?
00:23:04
Speaker
of great options here.
00:23:05
Speaker
For a half marathon, ah so just fast, EVO SL. EVO SL has got to be. I think that's EVO SL. Fantastic ah price-wise as well. Yeah, that's dead easy. There are other options. You could look at something like the... yeah New Balance Rebel V4, things like that. But basically, if you're looking at stuff like the New Balance Rebel V4 and the Hocker Max 6, we would say the Adidas Evo SL is the better option.
00:23:26
Speaker
um Yeah, same price. sorry Yeah. Okay, this is an interesting one. AKS World 11 on Instagram. Preference in heel to forefoot drop height, e.g. 8mm, in shoes, generally speaking. I'd say drop is one of the most, I think, overestimated stats in running because I think a drop is important if all shoes are made exactly the same geometry, but they're not. There's very, like, a rocker to me is much more important than the actual drop. um that I'll say, like, You've got to think about it. It's a very hard number, but A, brands don't always nail it in a shoe. There's that website that cuts shoes up they're often not sure about the drop, and brands say themselves it will will be know vary. and
00:24:08
Speaker
if your' shoe If you're a shoe size 11 versus a shoe size 6, a drop of 10 millimeters feels very different, I'm sure. But if we are going to ignore all those, I usually prefer kind of five to eight mil in a rocket shoe. That just tends to be my preference. I'm a heel striker. And if I have two high drop shoe, which everyone always says is good for heel strikers, a high drop shoe.
00:24:26
Speaker
I don't believe this because I then slap through from the heel onto to my forefoot and I get forefoot discomfort. And I think if I was landing on the 4th, I wouldn't actually necessarily have that. So I prefer a more rocket shoe for that reason. I like it to feel nice and smooth.
00:24:38
Speaker
And usually, yeah it's kind of in the 5 to 8 ballpark range, 4mm. Usually, I don't go for anything low drop, really. Yeah. Yeah, it's you're right. It's entirely dependent on the shoe and the foam and all those sorts of things. Because some but sometimes...
00:24:52
Speaker
I don't know if you do this, but when we do first runs on on shoes, I try not to read too much about it. I try to go out and and just... Sometimes I don't even know what the shoe's for. And i'll I'll think, what is this shoe designed for? but Tom's got out in shoes that aren't for running, like bro, because he's just... If he's going to get sent a shoe, who he'll do a first run in it.
00:25:09
Speaker
i want tell this I've done some shoes that should technically be brogues based on their performance benefits. um But I would say that i mean yeah this I've tested quite a few zero drop shoes over the past couple of years because of ultra testing, things like that.
00:25:23
Speaker
um and And you can really tell there's zero a drop. I don't enjoy those. I don't mind as much now because I've so i've sort of got a bit more used to it, but it's not drop I like. um I mean, most of them get what they're going up to twos and fours now, ultras? Fours, yeah, quite lot of fours.
00:25:38
Speaker
Quite lot fours. Which is usually okay. okay Yeah, you you can really notice it. For me, it's definitely, um I got my higher drop runner, eights, tens, because i like I like that feel of, I'm a midfoot striker.
00:25:49
Speaker
I always feel those shoes really help me sort my transition. forward Yeah, yeah it and it doesn't, cause me any problems but i mean it's there's no right if you went in a shop the if you're a runner you're probably gonna get used to the shoe that you first bought as if drop if you've been using that for a year and then you'll go to another shoe and you go i don't like this drop but it's all adapting to it i mean a lot of people you remember everyone got obsessed with zero drop shoes for a while and they had to adapt to those shoes and they became obsessed to them then they go back to another drop yeah they can't use it but mike's a good example because he used to be a zero drop runner
00:26:21
Speaker
He did, yeah. And he really struggled when he started testing a loads of shoes and he was like, oh, I'm used to using my zero drops. He never wears zero drop anymore. so Never go back. Never go back go back. Never go back. I'd say the market has also now converged in like the about eight millimeters is pretty much the sweet spot for most. like So when you test like a Nike or a Brook shoe who have stuck to 10, 12 millimeters,
00:26:43
Speaker
it is quite different sometimes and it's usually the main difference for me is just literally if you have a high drop shoe you have less foam under the forefoot by design obviously so it means that even if you have a 40 millimeter nike shoe it's only 30 at the forefoot whereas an asic shoe that's 40 minutes is 32 and a hoker shoe is 35 so i just noticed that slight level of extra cushioning under the forefoot rather than the actual ride itself of the drop which i think is much more determined by the geometry and how fast are'm running that kind of thing yeah yeah yeah Okay. Do you want one more?
00:27:11
Speaker
Yeah, always. Okay, let's do one more. Okay.
How does shoe testing affect fit preferences?
00:27:15
Speaker
So this is one from Jake B on ah YouTube. He says, how has testing shoes impacted how you value shoes fit?
00:27:22
Speaker
What dimensions being pretty spot on are a non-negotiable versus nice to have for a positive running experience? Would you say the range of a shoe fitting good enough has grown or gotten smaller for you over the years?
00:27:35
Speaker
Is it just pure fit? We're the worst people ask this. Yeah, we're the worst people to ask this because we we just get on every single shoe. So I have a narrow foot and basically don't seem to have any problem with fit. of any like Occasionally, it's a bit thin at the back and it might cut. use the Mizuno for the first time today, Tom. I know you're fan. Love that shoe. But would probably have to heel lock it next time because it's quite sharp and I could feel it maybe going at my skin a bit.
00:27:58
Speaker
But I have, I think, never had a problem with something around my toes in a shoe unless I've quite literally ordered a size too small, which I did with the Endorphin Elite. And so the only problems I ever have are if it's really roomy, maybe, then I need to to be, yeah, i I didn't value a shoe fit at all when I started this review process. And at this point, I still don't value a shoe. It's just, it always fits me. So i would say,
00:28:21
Speaker
yeah but ah Oh, there is this odd thing I have occasionally that a shoe with a really aggressive heel counter will irritate my Achilles. yeah But it's only happened like three or four times. So... Well, I suppose as run testers and and journalists, we probably, people like us gravitate to be, there's not a lot of people that would be able to to do it if you were very particular about your shoe size.
00:28:43
Speaker
Because if, so I mean, I know I've got mates who constantly sending back shoes, they're buying shoes in their size, they're sending a back going, oh, i did it rubbed and all those sorts things. Can you imagine us doing that if every shoe we got wasn't quite right and we had had the custom to constantly get new ones? I would do that. Like occasionally when she doesn't fit right, we yeah almost never can actually swap it with so we just have to live with I've run in shoes that I mean, I did the test the Endorphin Elite. It was clearly too small. i had to run like 50k in it. So I guess, yeah. yeah Yeah, well, i am i yeah I don't have any major issues hardly ever with shoes, but there are some extremes.
00:29:16
Speaker
I did run in, it was the S-Elite V4 a while ago, and it made all my toes bleed um over the course of a half marathon, which is ah one of the rarest things to ever happen to me, because i I run in like the wrong size Adidas shoes, and I'm fine. I'm just like, oh I can sort of slightly feel it rubbing and I can sort of tell that.
00:29:34
Speaker
um So, yeah, it is a tricky one. But i think I think it's something that is probably quite commonplace with shoe reviewers. Because when you look at doctors running and things like that, they they're really good at this. They will talk about the yeah yeah yeah the size and shape of the shoe and everything like that. And they can they can explain that. and But for us, you know we're testing so many shoes that...
00:29:53
Speaker
we just i don't know we've just probably got the perfect foot shape for testing lots of shoes. and In fact, lots of people would say, you knowre not when you're a shoe reviewer, but if you ah the sort of people that are around nowadays who are buying loads and loads shoes and running in 15 different shoes throughout the month, and then advice to them would be, don't wear all those different shoes because you're not adapting to any of them.
00:30:12
Speaker
We always get comments like, look at the taper on that toe box. That's mental. No human foot looks like that. I didn't even notice It it ran perfectly well. so yeah I think um we so i yeah I don't tend to give loads loads of advice around for that reason, apart from is it the right length yeah and is it slipping at the heel?
00:30:29
Speaker
um And if we have an issue, then usually it's a bit weird. But yeah, yeah my foot just fits in. I always find as well that um people who really into shoes get sort of caught up on rules that people have set out a long time ago. You know, like the...
00:30:43
Speaker
the thumbs width between the big toe and logically for most people. Yes, that's probably, you know, a safe bet because they're getting enough space, but not everyone likes that. Uh, and I don't like that much space. I like a bit less space before my toe, um, just because I never have any rubbing or anything. So I'd rather it be a little bit more, you know, little bit fitted, more fitted. because yeah i like that in racing shoes exactly yeah so like i'd rather have a lighter smaller shoe that is quite close for a racing shoe as long as soon as it as long as it's not going rub basically want the smallest shoe that isn't going rub and like you say for us it seems to be most shoes don't rub that much yeah next we're obviously gonna be cursed next two shoes are gonna gonna bleed tomorrow my half marathon on the basis of this but usually i don't have much of a problem with it so kieran's got a odder shaped foot but even he gets on with pretty much everything doesn't he
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, he he tends to just moan a little bit about a slight discomfort because of his wide feet, doesn't he? but he's also He must have a high arch. He really pushes tongues up. I've never seen him like that. So he's got, I think, he's just got a yeah slightly he's just bigger foot for his size, whereas we seem have small feet for our size, which is why yeah we can say UK9 even if it's an ADAS and get away with it. And for some people, I'd say go and get your feet properly measured or or properly measure your your feet because there may be a lot of people that don't quite have their size right.
00:31:56
Speaker
Yeah, I'd also say and we get this in the channel a lot and I do agree with it. They go like, why don't you use Japanese sizing which uses or just centimeter sizing? And obviously that is the right thing to do if you're really starting to choose doing that. But it wouldn't be useful advice. Lots of people who don't know their centimeter size and don't want to hear that information.
00:32:11
Speaker
Also, I can't go to the PR company for a guy. Yeah, give me the Japanese size because they barely get the UK size right half the time. so yeah like So it's like, I do agree with that. if you're really particular about fit, measure your foot in centimetres and um use Japanese sizing or the centimetre sizing or even the European sizing, which has just smaller fragments and can be really more exact if the brand is consistent, obviously.
00:32:33
Speaker
and But for our purposes, everything kind of fits. Just generally go for the right the same size. It's fine. Yeah. So, sorry, couldn't be that can be all helpful there. We're most useless people when it comes to yeah very particular fit.
00:32:43
Speaker
That's right. Okay, think I'll do it for the yeah this um ah return of the points of shoe. Oh, hang on a sec. There's one's last question sneaking in under the wire. Hang on a sec. Which shoes do you recommend for... Ah, the classic. Go on, we'll do this. Finish, Tom. Which shoes do you recommend for a first-time marathoner aiming for 345 who overpronates?
00:33:01
Speaker
Is the S4 Plus Yagiri from ASICs worth trying to get hold of? We've not tested that, so I can't talk about that. But basically, it's the classic, the stable super shoe. Tom, go. ah The stable shoe. I mean, there's different levels of talking about this. I think probably at the moment you're looking at the Duke Balance SE Elite V4 is probably one of the most accessible ah super shoes for people. I'm trying to think of other options out there as well.
00:33:28
Speaker
345 marathon so you could also get away with a non-super shoe and look even yeah something like the noblast um the hocus yellow x1 getting a sale now while it's still around very stable very fun super shoe if you are wanting like that carbon bouncy feeling i think that would work fine yeah if you just want i think at 345 if you're not i don't know if you've done a few marathons and know that's a really hard barrier for you you're pushing then i'd probably look at super shoe if it's just you're kind of like a vague target your first marathon And it depends how much you're overpronating as well. We're not physiotherapists. If you're really badly overpronating, none of these shoes may work well for you. So go to a Go to a shop and get them to have a look at it. That's true. If you need a stability shoe, we love the Tempus, Sockney Tempus, which is also a fast shoe. A perfect shoe for that kind of time. Again, if you're not wildly overpronating because even that is... Yeah. That is the kind of question we're always bit tricky on because who knows what stability...
00:34:25
Speaker
Indeed. All right. Well, until the next points of shoe. Yeah, we'll try and make it less of a gap than, what was it, six months? Yeah, yeah. We had to amass some questions, didn't we? so We amassed a lot of questions, then we ignored all the questions because we neverd we couldn't work out our time to film. but yeah Apologies for that.
00:34:40
Speaker
But thanks to everyone who sent us set this questions for this podcast. But also thank you to all of the people that commented on the 100,000 subscriber posts because we had absolutely loads of very friendly and nice people congratulating us and wishing us well and telling us that they enjoy the channel. So um it's very much appreciated.
00:35:02
Speaker
Yeah. Well, we're both racing tomorrow, so maybe we'll see some people tomorrow, which is probably in the past. I don't think I will. I think my race has got about 70 spots in it. I look forward to seeing, hearing about this race in the video. I'm testing about 20 different things tomorrow, so got to try and get them all out now because I'm leaving at 7.30.
00:35:18
Speaker
All right, i then. know See you soon. Bye.
00:35:24
Speaker
This episode of Points of Shoe was presented by Tom Wheatley and Nick Harris Fry. It was produced by Tom Wheatley. The music was by Fear of Tigers.