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Podcast Special | Interview with New Balance athletes Kate Avery, Zak Hanna and Jacob Adkin
2.1k Plays27 days ago
In this special episode, Tom speaks to three of New Balance's athletes: Kate Avery (20 Great Britain vests and 13 Europe medals across track and cross country), Zak Hanna (5th 2022 World Mountain and Trail Running Championships, 5th 2022 European Mountain Running Championships, 1st Matterhorn Ultraks Vertical) and Jacob Adkin (Gold and Silver individual medals at European Mountain Running Championship).
As well as chatting through their race successes, we discuss favourite training sessions, their top shoe choices and the events and challenges they'd each love to do.
Big thanks to Fear of Tigers for the killer intro music. You can listen to more of his stuff over at https://www.patreon.com/fearoftigers
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Transcript
00:00:05
Speaker
Hey Tommy from The Run Testers and welcome to this podcast special. I've recently been up to Cumbria with new bands to test a load of kit, and while there I got the opportunity to chat to three of the brand's athletes, Kate Avery, Zach Hanna and Jacob Adkin. Kate has represented Britain and Europe at a number of both track and cross country events.
00:00:23
Speaker
She's been at the Commonwealth Games, she's been at the European Cross Country Championships, she won the NCAA Cross Country and she won the UTA 50km. Zach Hanna has a number of achievements under his belt, including becoming 5th at the 2022 World Mountain and Trail Running Championships, 5th at the European Mountain Running and Championships, 3rd overall at the Mountain Running World Cup and 1st at the Matterhorn Ultracs Vertical.
00:00:48
Speaker
Jacob Adkin is a fur runner, a mountain runner and a trail runner and he's had gold and silver individual models at European mountain running championships. In this podcast I'll be chatting to them about their races, their training and the kit that they use to do that. Right let's dive in and see what we spoke about.
00:01:09
Speaker
Okay. So I'm here with not one, but three new balance athletes, Zach Hanna, Kate Avery, and Jacob Adkin. Now we are currently on a retreat with New Balance to test some new kit. So we're going to chat today about you guys, your training, your races, what you're up to at the moment. And we're going to talk a little bit about the kit that we're testing and your favorite kit from New Balance. So let's start with Zach. What are you up to at the moment and what's your focus in training? ah Yeah thanks for having me on the podcast. I think at the minute I'm just training in between races and based back at home here now and back in Northern Ireland so I'm just training enjoying running with my dog and just not doing a whole lot really. And what is your main area of events that you you normally are training for?
00:02:00
Speaker
Mostly uphill and VK races but this summer I've tried to move up into like 20-25k distances, sort of trying to branch out a bit but if you were to to ask me what my favourite is, it is the VK and the uphill races. I've never tried a VK.
00:02:17
Speaker
Yeah, they are, they are savage, they are, like even Jacob could vouch for him in that one there, the hardest 35-40 minutes of rolling you'd probably ever do. how How does somebody get into VK? for where do you where do you Where do you go from to decide that that's the next the thing you want to try?
00:02:32
Speaker
I just enjoy running uphill. Thank God. I think it's a good question because it's such like a niche sport. And I think, yeah, if you're thinking about trying it, I'd also ask that question of how do you get into it and where are the events? Because, I don't know, I was lucky enough to just have people help me and they're like, try this race, try that race. But yeah, it's very niche if you just do road running or track running. Like, like how do I?
00:03:01
Speaker
Yeah. I don't even know how, I mean, if you, people who listening to this podcast, who maybe aren't trail runners on, on off road runners, they would probably just think a trail is a trail, but there's such a complicated and like selection of events, selection of races. Yeah. like And VK is one that I wouldn't even think of as adding into that list of options of races that you could do. I think the UK in particular, like it's not it's not um set in tradition as it is in and the continent and the continent in Europe where uphill races, not necessarily the VK, but uphill specific races are more way more common and it's where a mountain running, the term mountain running has both started. We've got fell running started in the UK and that is defined by an up and down race. There's only like
00:03:50
Speaker
there's less than five for the uphill race in the UK. And they are, some of them are not like they're put on for trial races for the kind of the the championship races, which a lot of people, you know, for obvious reasons, and maybe not want to do so. Yeah. Um, but as you say, like it, there's a whole expansive range of, uh, disciplines now to almost, almost segment segmentation of trail running itself now. Yeah. Um, cause everyone from.
00:04:14
Speaker
the athlete to a race organiser to sponsors want to have a a portion of the cake. Yes. And do do you all race VK? I think it's just mainly Zach and me. Yeah. could Could persuade Kate to do some at some point.
00:04:30
Speaker
I've done a few uphill races, which, by the way, is not a VK, as I learned, as I entered a VK. And I was like, yeah, I've done a bunch of these before and and they we spoke about which ones they were. And um they were like, no, you you have not done a VK. So um I've done one and I haven't rushed back.
00:04:50
Speaker
So I'm quite interested in this VK stuff because I've never really spoken to her about it. Where are the big famous VKs? I know I've been to Chamonix, is there one there? Yeah, Chamonix, VK for the Marath and Dumont Blanc weekend. and Myself and Jacob have actually both won that one. um Where's the other big ones? key There's ah one of the fans called Lefouli. I think the world does weather what world records are usually set, I think it is currently. But I think it's up here, there's an old my um mining railway track and the runners have to wear a helmet.
00:05:23
Speaker
because of falling potentially falling rock and stuff from this like track that not many people would go up other for this but other than the for this race. So yeah um the pictures are quite quite funny for me as you're a bit odd. but um yeah It's not a race that you want to make even harder, is it? No. You have to use poles in a two. thank yeah I don't think you're allowed down there without poles, which has put me off it. Well, there's a Kiavana in Italy. He has a very famous one as well. Dolomites? Is that a famous?
00:05:53
Speaker
Thomas, VK. I think it's popular, yeah. I think it's not a quick one, but... Italy's the main hub for the VK, there's Italy and France, um but there's that many. And I'd say, like, the Chamonix will be one of my favourites. I really, really enjoy that one.
00:06:07
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's not, ah it's not straightforward. You know, it's hard enough to just, just run up a thousand meters under 5k, but it's, uh, it's another thing when they add a bit of technicality to it. And in, in regards to the, the Chamonix one, that's got some like via Ferrato at the top and, and the path is quite like eroding away quite a bit near the top as well. So yeah.
00:06:27
Speaker
it adds as challenge to the already. what the looksll I'll move on from VKs a bit because we' as we we've completely delved into this, but I'm still quite interested in it. So for you guys who don't live in one of these countries that is famous for having VKs,
00:06:45
Speaker
How do you train for it? Where where you live? ah Just multiple reps of the of ah of a set set same hill. i think I think you can get a lot from some supplemental training, for example, like like gym work or ah bike work. But but yeah, so ultimately you can't be running up a steep hill that's specific to the train you will race on or want to race on. So yeah, and then otherwise if you are lucky enough to travel out to you know, go on holiday to a more mountainous place in Europe, then that's your chance to kind of bash out some, some ah loss of meters in a week um and try and strengthen up.
00:07:24
Speaker
All right, well, maybe we'll do another the podcast at some point just on VKs because I have lots more questions. but question for So you guys, you both are you you've always been trail runners, you've always been focused on the outdoor stuff. Kate, you did you start as only doing track or did you do trail and track at the same time and move into trail?
00:07:47
Speaker
um I think I started like a lot of people do it at school, everybody has to do a school cross-country um and I did that and then yeah since I was 13 when I started running I've only ever done track and cross-country um and then it was just the past couple of years that I transitioned into trails. And why did you do that?
00:08:10
Speaker
oh It was, you know, something that I was watching from afar and I was intrigued by it. And if I'm honest, I thought about it for years before I made that change. And it was actually Pete Riley, who I work with at New Balance, that we had a call after one of the European crosses and he said, oh, you know, we're like trying to set up this team. And he's like, go in, think about it. I was like, I don't need to think about it. I'm doing it. And he's like, no, no, no. And I was like, no, I don't need to. And that was that.
00:08:40
Speaker
Wow, okay. And is that something, chuck trail running, it's changed quite a lot over the past 10, 15 years. It's become much more noticeably, it's something that people want to do now as opposed to the old days. It was more like fail running and things like that. It was based on location. But was was the the ah widespread interest in trail running a big factor in that as well?
00:09:02
Speaker
Um, I think it just evolving as a sport and social media has done a massive part in that and being able to see it and see the different races, the different locations and the atmosphere. I think, yeah, just for me, like I didn't grow up in a family that went out for walks like Jacob was talking about earlier and out in nature and doing that kind of stuff. So it's very different. So I think,
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah, just the sport growing and social. It's definitely a sport that lends itself quite well to social media, I find. and Whereas track isn't necessarily one that's particularly, once you've maybe posted a few pictures of track, you can't just keep posting them. Do you know what? I think this, like, I was in Samarits earlier and people run around the tracks and the flat trails and they're all like, oh, look at the mountains. And I'm like, yeah, I'm running in the mountains. You guys are just looking at them. um But yeah, it's it's a special sport.
00:09:59
Speaker
So looking thinking back to when you were very focused on the track side of things, how do you think the mental aspect of training for track is different than the and training for the trails? it's like I find it obviously you're still doing your hard sessions it's still hard whatever you're training for whether it's an 800 meters or a hundred mile on the trails it's hard there's still aspects to train but it's it's different it's a different intensity uh the the focus on paces isn't as strong like that's not to say that
00:10:34
Speaker
I don't want to hit a certain pace in my track sessions or my tempos and stuff like that. It's obviously still a focus, but it's not the be all and end all now. And I just enjoy the training so much more. it's ah it's a Yeah, I mean, I've i've done both and it mentally it's a very big difference between those two types of running. So it's interesting you've gone from from from track to to trail because it's the quite extremes really. It's not just road to trail, is it? You've actually gone from the one location to the most beautiful locations in the world. Yeah.
00:11:17
Speaker
Cool. OK, so let's talk a little bit about running achievements. So um you've you've all between you done a lot of races, you've won races between you. What would you say? let's Let's go through each of you. Zach, what would you say is your biggest running achievement to date? Probably fifth in the world mountain running championships in 2022. Going into that race, I was going well that season, but to be honest with you, top 10 was probably the goal. But to finish fifth was just like, where the hell did that come out of? But that was just couldn't believe it. What were you expecting when you went into that race? Where do you think you would you' come?
00:11:55
Speaker
I said top 10 was like, top 10 would have been a real good run, top 15 would have been satisfying, but whenever I was able to get over, it was only 15 seconds off a bronze medal. I was like, but where do you pull that 15 seconds out of? Even though I was buzzing with the race, you're still thinking, we're gonna have maybe pulled back about 15 seconds, but now I'm absolutely delighted with that result, but you know it always just leaves you wanting more nearly. Is that when you're gonna attempt it again? and Well, we'll see. yeah the o To be honest with you, every year, it's all changed now. It used to be every year you had a World Land European Championships, where now it's changed by annual. So next year's a World Championships, whereas this year in 2024 was Europeans. So was it September 2025 as the next World Championships in Kanfrank in the Parnese? So that's going to be a different ballgame because the last World Championships in 2022 were in Thailand.
00:12:51
Speaker
And all three of us were there. And that was probably a trip of a lifetime. I bet. I bet. Yeah, I was quite experienced that. So how about you then, Jacob? Um, I don't know if you allow this, but like. You can have anything you want. Okay. Cause like in terms of, I don't know, you get like ah objectively, like the statistically, like if you, if you, if you like judging judgment, judging it.
00:13:16
Speaker
I'd say it's like the winning European champs in 2019 and also team team gold as well. I think that was the first like senior men's gold for a long time. And it was a group of, well, there was three of us who were Scottish and one of them were acclaimed with Scotland because his parents lived in Scotland for a while. So that was like an amazing experience with them and the whole team. But also just another highlight of kind of my career in running so far is just some of the races I've been doing at home. um Especially like just after lockdowns eased after for Covid and I just stayed in the UK, didn't travel as much. I did some of the fail races again or new ones as well and I just found that kind of rejuvenated my enjoyment of the sport and really helped me like mentally and also with training as well just gave me a different stimulus. And these are races that you hadn't done before Yeah, some of that had been in a, tried a few new ones. Um, like I did some of the English championship series. Um, and then did a couple of like the classic Wednesday night, midweek fail races, which are just like so much fun. Um, uh, you know, turn out pay a fiver. Um, sometimes not even that.
00:14:28
Speaker
and have a good have a good night racing and go to the pub after um get absolutely eaten by midget sometimes but all part of the experience and yeah there's nothing kind of fulfills kind of your enjoyment of just the pure pureness of the sport is that yeah yeah okay I don't know, we've got asked it i've got been asked this question a few times and I actually don't know what event it is that I would pick because I think they're special for different reasons. um But something that I'm very proud of is competing for GB over track, outdoors, indoors, cross and the trails. It's not bad. Yeah, that's something I'm really proud of.
00:15:15
Speaker
Nice, okay well let's um let's move on from events and let's just talk a little bit about training. Nice easy one for you. I want each of your, well it doesn't have to be your exact favourite training session, but give me a training session that you really like to do. I've actually done this one last last Tuesday at Cumbroni Fire, which isn't far from me. um It was 5.8 minutes uphill, 5 minutes down on the same hill as on a Saxon trail called the Zigzags.
00:15:46
Speaker
I was like, not 0.7 mile long, just over a K, averaging like 19-20%. So, roughly eight minutes up, and you turn, and then you sort of, you don't go full tilt on the way down, sort of like go in an effort that you're not gonna completely bust yourself or turn the gun back up, but it's roughly an hour long, I covered 10K and I just got over a thousand meters of climbing. So like, that for me is like really good, specific stuff. So that's five minutes,
00:16:14
Speaker
up a pretty steep hill no no eight minutes up eight minutes up a yeah steep hill and then five minutes comfortably down yeah you're going back to the museum to get back to the start yeah five minutes back down in the same spot you started at and then you do five times that's nice yeah so um that's completely dependent on the way you're at at the time yeah because that session could be It can be horrible or if you're going well, it can be good. Well, thankfully last Tuesday was actually was feeling good. So was it was actually went better than what I expected. And then as well, you move on to the flat. I love a good 10 bit of care. It's just something about that. Especially whenever, no whenever I'm doing that, well, maybe it's like when all four of us are going well. It's just one of them sessions that when you finish it, you're like, that was class. they so Do they join you for the uphill one as well?
00:16:57
Speaker
Not a chance, nope. If they've seen me, they wouldn't even get out of the car if they've seen that session now, so that says it all. But no, I think it's good to have a ah range of both hilly and flat sessions to enjoy because then you can sort of mix things up depending on how you're feeling and what stage of the season you're at. Yeah, yeah so yeah and and depending on where you are at the time and what you can do. Yeah, exactly. Go on then, Kate.
00:17:22
Speaker
Um, yeah, I guess like there's a mixture of sessions, but I like a trail, like an undulating tempo trail session, just the one that you can flow on quite enjoy long tempos. Um, but then I also do love like a 16 or 20 by 400 on the tracks too. So, a right mix. Jacob. Probably balance the combo and the combination of both of those. um Yeah, I think like i think the the good thing about doing more trail running, mountain running, putting that into your training plan or aiming for races in that discipline is that you get so much more variety in your in your what sessions you do. Therefore, you actually enjoy sessions more because you're not doing, say, a couple of flat sessions a week. and
00:18:09
Speaker
and doing that week in week out you're actually doing the maybe one hill session one flat session so you actually look forward to the other one come the next week but yeah so like as they say i enjoyed like a hill session so that's probably for me like a long uphill broken into reps but with uphill jog recoveries So it's quite specific to uphill running. Uphill jog recoveries, is that Or walk if it's particularly steep, but you obviously lower the intensity in that recovery time period, but um you continue uphill. Obviously that requires either along a big hill or you do on the treadmill or Stairmaster.
00:18:48
Speaker
if If you would if you with you we't to be want to be an influencer, you've got to go on the Stairmaster for those uphill sessions. and so yeah or like yeah Nice metre track session. some of that
00:19:12
Speaker
All right, well let's jump into kit then. So we're here testing a load of kit, or I'm testing a load of kit. You guys have already tested a lot, a little much of the kit I imagine. So you're all new balanced athletes, you all do relatively similar events from the perspective of the kit that you use for a general runner to look at. What would each of you say is you're based on the type of running you do and the events you do, what is the shoe of choice for you? Or the shoes of choice for your training?
00:19:40
Speaker
Jacob, do you want to start? Yeah. um So for me, i'm you know, my go-tos off the shoe rack would be the Hiero, which is on the V8 at the moment, and the Venom, which is the new one to the line this summer.
00:19:57
Speaker
And we were talking about the Venom on the run, and I was a bit confused about this because the Venom hasn't been particularly well... yeah Well, it's and it's it's just come out of some resonant, but it's it's a shoe that I didn't know a lot about, and it looks very much like the the Rebel V4, doesn't it? It's like a trail version of the Rebel V4. Exciting looking shoe, very interesting. I think a lot of people love the Rebel V4, so it's interesting. What is it about that shoe that you you like?
00:20:22
Speaker
So it's, it's a lot lighter than some of the other shoes in the range, especially the Hero. So it just kind of lends itself to being a more of ah a session up-tempo shoe. And if you're doing an uphill or hill session, you want maybe something that's a bit more lightweight. So it kind of, it just fits the bill really in that in that regard. And yeah, it carries over, like you say, it carries over the kind of the technology from the roadside. So it is technically the rebel trail, but adds a little bit of,
00:20:51
Speaker
a grip on the outside to help with the trails. And yeah and what are you what the what would be the main, is it using this for racing? Are you using it for just training? and Depends on the race. So if it was a shorter race, I'd probably use the Venom. If it was a longer race, you know, 15k plus.
00:21:10
Speaker
I'd probably go for the SC trail, Supercom trail. um So that's just a bit more, a bit more cushion to it and a bit more kind of sturdy shoe with the carton plate as well. But it's quite a nice kind of, it doesn't quite feel like a carton plate shoe. You wouldn't thought it if you weren't told it. um So I think in that regard, it's quite, it doesn't pound your,
00:21:31
Speaker
legs too much light is enforced into certain positions as much as a as a as another carbon plate shoe would yeah um so yeah it's quite a nice kind of balance there not yeah we we just i've just had a go with with with the shoe and it definitely is a more subtle feels quite light feels really lightly light yeah but it's it is it you're right it's a so it's a subtle plate in there that doesn't necessarily if you yeah ah if so if you told me it didn't have a plate in i probably wouldn't have questioned you Yeah, I think it's just all about that. That mid-source is really quite quite good. It does a lot of lot of the job for it. And the comp player is forked as well, so it's so it can kind of move later laterally as well. More flex, yeah. Cool, okay. Zach, hit me. What have you got? Ah, save. The daily shoot would be the ROV8 or the 1080 because not every day is on the trail. Some days it's just like to mix it up and go on the road. The more X, the fresh from more X trail, it's just, I just love that shoot just for easy days. I think when you're and you're in the middle of a big training block on your legs you're just tired.
00:22:33
Speaker
just seems to be that shoe you're able to go out and you know you don't obviously have an engine tyre but just seems to rejuvenate the muscles nearly. As well for racing probably the SC Trail over the longer stuff and the Venom for the uphills of the shorter races and maybe a somewhat unknown soft ground if I'm racing at home because the six and a half mil lugs and just allows for when you're tromping through the bogs and over the real rocky ground it's like the shoe hasn't let me down yet running around the morns and like if it can cope in the morns it can it can cope anywhere so it's like it's the one shoe that I always make sure that I have ready to go because
00:23:10
Speaker
just with the weather changing especially over the winter. It's like always at hand and yes I don't really change job and change too much shoes. I sort of I know I like a stick to what I know. I'm not going to change something just because I fancy ah a different shoe. Yeah, no, each shoe has a purpose. That's the beauty of it. Each shoe has a purpose and then you sort of know from what's coming up next, right? Well, I'm going to need that shoe for this session. And yeah, that's really it.
00:23:41
Speaker
Mine's exactly the same as ours. The only thing that I'd add into that is I actually were the SC elites for my flat sessions. I just put the road shoe on. I want to feel good. I want to run fast, but yeah. Oh, talking about the road as well that way. What are we talking about? Yes, the Elite V4. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
00:24:02
Speaker
ah So I would add that in the mix of like my training cycle, but yeah, I'd race in the SC trail ones. They're my go-to. I like them. Long run to be in the heroes. Are you using the more X? Yes. Okay, because Jacob, you' you you don't you've not picked the more X. Is that just because the style of your running, maybe it doesn't need that much cushioning?
00:24:27
Speaker
Yeah, i'm I'm not a fan of ah big stacks, and ah or to be honest, I've not actually tried the borax. I can't judge until I do try, but in general, in the past and up to now, I'm not i'm not um a big one for the for maximum cushion shoes. yeah no' sorry I'm not saying they don't forgot a place and people, you know, wouldn't suit them, but ah for me, I kind of prefer... um like like I like to feel the ground, basically.
00:24:54
Speaker
Okay. All right. Last question. Nice and simple. Can you do any race in the world? That's not a simple one. What would you pick? You don't need to get too much depth with this. Does it have to be a race or can it be like? Event, race, anything you want to do that is a challenge, anything that you make, maybe it's part of your career later on, you go, that's something I'd like to tick off. Might even be something that you might not even ever be able to do. Bob Green? Bob Green, right?
00:25:23
Speaker
Good choice. You can't even do it. You can't even do 20K yet, mate. I'm suggesting you do it. He's the catacomb. No, I don't want to know. and that around The kind of big rounds in the UK, they're they're quite like you know they they are iconic and it would be cool to do them, but I'm not sure that that would be my top pick. And I'm trying to think of my top pick right now. um ah But yeah, yeah kate Kate's got something.
00:25:50
Speaker
I'm going to be boring and say UTMP. Oh, at some point, not anytime soon. I would really like to do the Myla. She's out there for next year. ah Like the Bob Graham does not appeal to me at all. Like the fell running my upset a few people that does not appeal to me in the slightest. Very different to trail races. Uh, but yeah, boring, but.
00:26:17
Speaker
I'd really like to. It's not a boring race. Absolutely not. okay What about you guys? thing i'll just tell the thing ah think li see I think, to be honest with you, that's the beauty of trail running and mountain running and fell running, whatever it is. Everyone, a roadrunner, you ask, what's the event? It's going to be New York. It's going to be London. There's like three or four events everyone wants to do. But I don't think you're going to get a trail runner who everyone's going to have the same answer. There's Kate wants to do UTMB. I have no notion of ever doing UTMB. I don't know what you want to do. Yeah, Jacob's the same, so it's like there's three of us of three different answers. We'll do the same. But i that's such a hard one to pick. If it's not a race, I would love to just take like a week and do the UTMB route over a week. kids what i do stand up what What I would love to do, I would love to do it just with a group of friends, stand in the refuges and bring my dog with me.
00:27:13
Speaker
I'd love to bring my dog and just, as I say, it's just going out in the mountain to be your friend and just having a good time. Yeah. But I don't know what a race is kind of. That's fun. You can have that. That's absolutely fun. Yeah, I can't really think of a race. There's too many to think of as the honest answer. Yeah, definitely. um I mean, like, I think the the more the challenge side of the sport is quite cool, I think. And like, there's a ah good kind of route in Scotland called the Ken Gorms 4000ers.
00:27:42
Speaker
um And it's, yeah, it's kind of one that my coach and I thought we'd do like at the 2020 as like a post-COVID type challenge, just getting back out and doing something cool. What is that? um So it's the 4,000 feet, is it the fourth? Yeah, 4,000 feet mountains in the Cairngorms. So how many of them is again? I've got no idea. Yeah, I've forgotten now. I've never even thought about doing it.
00:28:10
Speaker
um So yeah, something like that and like exploring some in an area of your kind of home country that you've not been to before um over a course of a certain amount of time. It's kind of quite appealing.
00:28:24
Speaker
Nice. Very different answers than you would get, as you say, from roadrunners who probably have like a very strict list of things they all want to do. Well, brilliant. Thank you very much, guys. It was really interesting and great to chat to you about kit and races and training and all sorts of things. So um thanks a lot and good luck with the, hopefully, the races you get to do over the next year or so. Thanks for having us. Thank you. har Thank you.