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Countless Palestinian Futures with Danah Abdulla & Sarona Abuaker
66 Plays1 year ago
Danah Abdulla and Sarona Abuaker join host Yara Hawari to talk about their discussion-based game, “Countless Palestinian Futures.” They explain how the project seeks to challenge colonial temporal domination and stimulate imagination around Palestinian futures.
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Transcript
Homemaking from Afar and New Ideas for Palestine
00:00:00
Speaker
What does homemaking from afar look like, especially within our conditions as Palestinians who are incredibly fragmented? And in what ways can we talk about Palestine and generate ideas around Palestine that aren't afraid of moving beyond what we're currently experiencing? What Dan and I are really interested in is how can we utilize our imaginations?
00:00:22
Speaker
I think one of the comments that really stuck with me was this is one of the only events on Palestine I've attended that didn't bore me, that didn't sadden me. And someone else just said, wow, to think these things are so mundane, but actually I just realized how little imagination I have.
Imagining a Future Beyond Zionist Settler Colonialism
00:00:43
Speaker
From Ashabaka, the Palestinian Policy Network, I am Yara Hawari, and this is Rethinking Palestine.
00:00:55
Speaker
For many Palestinians, imagining a future free of Zionist settler colonial domination is difficult to imagine. The constant process of erasure that Palestinians face means that surviving the ever deteriorating present takes priority. The distortion of indigenous temporalities must be understood as a key part of the settler colonial domination.
00:01:14
Speaker
And indeed, Frantz Fanon once wrote that French colonialism in Algeria always developed on the assumption that it would last forever, noting that the structures built, the prohibition of the Arabic language, et cetera, all gave the impression that a rupture in the colonial time was impossible. And this is common to all settler colonial projects, which seek to control perceptions of reality in order to bind indigenous and colonized people in a seemingly perpetual state of being.
00:01:39
Speaker
Imagining a future beyond this day is thus a rebellious and radical act and is by no means an easy one.
Game Design to Challenge Temporal Domination
00:01:46
Speaker
Today I have two guests joining me to discuss a project that seeks to challenge this temporal domination and stimulate the imagination by helping people develop tangible outcomes and ideas around Palestinian futures.
00:01:58
Speaker
Serona Abouakar, a poet, artist, and work in Palestinian education, and Dana Abdallah, a designer, educator, and researcher, have co-developed a discussion-based game called Countless Palestinian Futures, which I'm excited to learn more about. Serona, Dana, thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Rethinking Palestine. Thanks for having us, Yara. Thank you for having us. So perhaps we can start off by asking the both of you, how did this game come about, and how did you end up working together on it?
00:02:28
Speaker
So this game came about in its current form in the summer of 2021, basically about, I'd say around a month after, or sorry, two months after everything was kicking off in Palestine.
00:02:42
Speaker
Mosaic Rooms was having an exhibition called A Stateless Heritage, and they wanted to create a public program. So they approached me to produce a workshop and kind of gave me a sort of carte blanche to do whatever it is that I wanted to do. And during that time, I know myself and probably Sorona and others, we were doing a lot of organizing, but also thinking about how things can be not so ephemeral.
00:03:09
Speaker
And being a graphic designer, there is a lot of, I mean, the discipline itself can be quite ephemeral. So I really started thinking about how you can create something that enables more action and that kind of continues this idea of iteration, which again comes also from design. And several years ago, while I was producing Kelly Matt magazine, I was thinking about these ideas of questions for the Arab world.
00:03:34
Speaker
And it's a project that never went anywhere. It's one of those things that you kind of write down and then it sits in your desk somewhere, paperwork piles up, and you think, okay, maybe I'm going to come back to it eventually. And then when this workshop opportunity came about, I thought, actually, Serona works a lot around return. What would it be like to work with her if she was actually interested? And then we came up with Countless Pals to New and Futures.
Imagination in Game Design and Personal Experiences
00:03:59
Speaker
It was really funny because I remember Dana came over and we were having dinner and she was like, I'm supposed to do a workshop and I really want to make a game, but I don't know what the game should be about. And that's how we landed on Return. So initially it was this kind of blob of an idea.
00:04:18
Speaker
And I think a lot of my personal interest in it was just from personal experiences as we all have and questions around return. I think as well just some my own research for my masters and just questions I'm interested in in terms of what does homemaking from afar look like, especially within our conditions as Palestinians who are incredibly fragmented. And in what ways can we talk about Palestine and generate ideas around Palestine that
00:04:47
Speaker
aren't afraid of moving beyond what we're currently experiencing and not to treat what we're currently experiencing in a blase way. But I think what Den and I are really interested in personally and in our work as well is how can we utilize our imaginations? And this is our humble attempt of doing so.
00:05:07
Speaker
And I think it's such an amazing and creative way to encourage Palestinians to imagine beyond this colonial reality that we live in.
Exploring Differences Through a Card-Based Game
00:05:16
Speaker
So Rona, can you run us through how the game works and what a session playing this game looks like to help our listeners visualize it a bit better?
00:05:24
Speaker
So they're quite simple, the rules of the game. And the reason why we wanted to make them quite simplified is to enable different formats of play. So the game itself is just cards. And what we recommend is how to play it is between
00:05:41
Speaker
three to six players per group per se, and a moderator should be assigned. And there should be no more than two to three questions played per game, quote unquote. And each game session can last like approximately one to two hours. If you want to go more, go for it, but that might.
00:05:58
Speaker
That my friend, it's course eventually, depending on the number of people, I suppose. But depending on the number of players, what we're really concerned about was how people were heard and how ideas were dealt with and how differences were held with the game. So the game is an attempt of not doing away with differences, but actually confronting our differences. Because I think what the game is hopefully
00:06:23
Speaker
trying to get at and work with is actually the conditions that we live within. We're an incredibly scattered people. We don't have a unified language. We don't have a unified religion. Even if people do have that, they're not homogenous. So I mean, there's inherently differences within people. But I think the way the game is trying to work and the rules of it really try to not shy away from those differences, from class differences.
00:06:45
Speaker
forms of racialization, hierarchies, depending on like the kinds of IDs we may have, or, you know, access to resources, all of that. So two options are created for play. So there's one option where there's different themes that can be chosen. So the game has, it's being built up still.
00:07:03
Speaker
But we have 70 questions and counting spread across six themes. And the themes are governance, infrastructure, people in society, culture and media. And I always forget the last two. Dana, help me out. Economy and geography.
00:07:20
Speaker
economy and geography, thank you. I always forget those last two. So the game is quite expansive in terms of the themes that we cover and that's quite intentional because I think ultimately when Dan and I first started working on this, we had all these questions just by ourselves between her and I about what return could look like. And then the more questions we started asking, the more we realized actually this isn't just about one particular
00:07:46
Speaker
thing about Palestine or about society building per se. This is about world building in this sense where it's all encompassing and all expansive. So in order to try to bring organization to it is we just chose six themes that kind of we're hoping makes sense in terms of how then people can
00:08:03
Speaker
approach the game and also the questions themselves with their entailing but then hopefully gives people then an idea of other questions that can be asked that have not yet been asked in the game as well. So it's quite generative hopefully in that way. So option one is you can choose different themes and the moderator shuffles the cards
00:08:22
Speaker
from the different theme sets and each player is handed two cards and then players read their cards and choose one question.
Global Facilitation and Cultural Adaptation of the Game
00:08:29
Speaker
And then they put this question down on the table and then the moderator reads each card and then the group chooses a question to play. So that's one way. Another way is just simply choosing one theme and then you choose a question from that particular theme. So questions can look at, for example, like what should we do with the settlements?
00:08:47
Speaker
Other questions look at, for example, what would happen to the surrounding Arab regions if Palestinians left? So the questions span many different kinds of ideas and many kinds of different realities. And then maybe Dan and I can talk a bit more later on about facilitation and our experience with that.
00:09:05
Speaker
But the last thing I'll say about how the game is played is what we like to do in a really accessible way of doing, of keeping almost like an archive of the game while it's being played is we normally provide like massive sheets of paper with markers. And what we do is we ask people as one person is talking, others are writing what that person is saying and then writing their own thoughts down. And then what we do is we say, okay, have you finished that idea? Let's move on to a different person who may want to talk.
00:09:33
Speaker
So by the end of each iteration, we have like six, seven massive rolls of paper where we have the questions documented, but also we've got people's ideas there. And so it's quite a visual way of seeing thoughts in their processes, but also the journeys that people go on. And really, I think, I mean, Dana, please, please hop in, but our role, I think, as facilitators
00:09:57
Speaker
has been trying to ensure that the conversation isn't dominated by one person. And we've had plenty of conversations about our role as facilitators in this game. What do we bring to it? And how do we make it generative? But I'll stop there for now.
00:10:14
Speaker
So did you crowdsource the questions? I mean, how did you narrow them down within those themes? Because 70 questions sounds like a lot, but actually, you know, when imagining a decolonial future, there's a lot to cover. So how did you come to that sort of final number?
00:10:33
Speaker
The number 70 is not final. I think it's again, it's an iterative process because then every time you play it, you get feedback on that specific question or other questions emerge. You refine the question and so on and so forth. And sometimes I think Sorona and I have been really good at reflecting after each session, but then taking the questions and
00:10:54
Speaker
saying actually, is this saying the same thing as this one, right? Just phrase differently. So constantly having a look at them and thinking about what we could remove, what we could rephrase, and who we can source more from. The process of sourcing the questions, we decided to contact, I think maybe about, was it around 30 or so prominent Palestinians from around the world that we had identified,
00:11:19
Speaker
When we narrowed down to the themes, I think narrowing down themes, it was just to kind of be, give a little bit more structure for people rather than this sort of free for all that would make our job a bit more difficult, but then to also think about how many people work in this specific area that we could contact and then they could contribute.
00:11:35
Speaker
There are some themes that have much more questions than others. I think that's something we need to work on because the idea is maybe to have, you're never probably going to have an even number, but somewhat reach that instead of having a substantial amount under governance and then having only a few for
00:11:53
Speaker
geography, for example. So we sourced those questions, we gave very specific guidelines to people in terms of what they needed to do, and then we sifted through them. And we just we rewrote them if they needed to be rewritten in terms of clarity. When you're playing a game like that with several people, you need to be able to look at a question and immediately understand what it's asking you.
00:12:14
Speaker
rather than try and sit there and decipher it because we have about, when we've done the game, we've assigned 25 minutes to each question and then kind of moved on from there, not spending too much time on one specific question. Dana, you've both taken this game to various Palestinian communities around the world. Can you tell me about how that's gone and what the reception has been and also if this game is in multiple languages or is it only in English?
00:12:45
Speaker
It's only in English now, but the idea is for us to begin translating it into Arabic first and then considering other languages such as Spanish. Sarona and I are heading to Santiago next month. In Chile, we're hopefully going to be hosting
00:12:59
Speaker
two iterations of Countless Palestinian Futures. So that's, I think for both of us, very exciting. And that game will be played with simultaneous translation. I was in Beirut last month, and that was a game that was played in both English with Arabic. Because of the attendees, not all of them were comfortable in English. It spoke volumes about being Palestinian and how many people are comfortable with what, and being someone from the diaspora myself in terms of my confidence and
00:13:29
Speaker
in speaking Arabic or translating these terms in Arabic. So that also produced a different way of playing it and a different approach. The two other times that we played it were both in London. The first time was at Mosaic Rooms and I think we had a mixture of people. That was the workshop that commissioned the project initially.
00:13:49
Speaker
And I think that that that one, I think people were really engaged in the game. They were very interested. I think one of the comments that really stuck with me was this is one of the only events on Palestine I've attended that didn't bore me, you know, that didn't sadden me that and someone else just said like, wow, to think these things are so mundane, but actually,
00:14:11
Speaker
I just realized how little imagination I have. The second session was a different crowd. I think you realize what happens when you have more numbers. And at that point, I think we had about 22 people. So it was a bit of a different approach that we took.
00:14:27
Speaker
We opened it to Arabs and Palestinians, but we didn't close it off to anyone who kind of wanted to play. So there was some people who weren't necessarily familiar or tied to Palestine in that one, but still enjoyed the idea behind it. Something similar happened in Beirut where people would see the game. I know there was an Armenian Lebanese person in attendance who said, I see this as applicable to the Armenian context. So what I love about it is that it's not just
00:14:52
Speaker
countless Palestinian futures, you can put countless insert wherever futures. And that's something that Sorona and I talked about a lot when crafting it. I did play it informally with some friends because it's also can double up as a dinner party game, I guess, if you're so inclined. And it was really nice because it was this, you know, we're just having tea in the balcony in Beirut. It's a beautiful night.
00:15:17
Speaker
And we start shuffling the games, we put down a card, and we just start having this really nice and kind of easy conversation amongst each other in terms of what ideas we have in relation to the question.
Diverse Palestinian Perspectives on Return
00:15:30
Speaker
And then, you know, there was people were just so curious, like, Cynthia, I want to see the questions. This is such a beautiful question. Oh, I love this so much. What we witnessed, I think in the three formal ones,
00:15:43
Speaker
that the lack of imagination, the inability to imagine beyond what's in front of you is so strong. I think people somewhat start to acknowledge that a little bit while they're playing. I think what else they, other comments that have come up is how many further questions that evolve based on that question and how many of them are actually interconnected.
00:16:07
Speaker
So as facilitators, sometimes we found ourselves in a way leading people just to kind of give them a tiny prompt to go into another direction and that somewhat worked. If you're enjoying this podcast, please visit our website al-shabaka.org where you will find more Palestinian policy analysis and where you can join our mailing list and donate to support our work.
00:16:33
Speaker
I've been reflecting as you've been talking. And I think the reception to the game has been, I guess, just to extend a bit on the facilitation itself and then moving to, I think, where the richness of the game really comes from as well. So when we facilitate it and just to give people more of a visual of how the space has worked so far,
00:16:54
Speaker
So we're all sitting in a circle and some people illustrate their response to the question, others write their response and then they say it out loud. But I think as facilitators, I think we're bare witness to the moment in which people become confronted with their own imaginations and seeing the reactions to that. So sometimes people can become really frustrated and what's the role of frustration and then thinking
00:17:23
Speaker
about the world that we want to live in. And so that's been it's quite interesting. I think it's quite emotional as well. I think that's something that was quite unexpected. I don't know if you expected that, Dana, but we've like witnessed a range of emotions, essentially playing this game. And I think with the reception in of itself, I think the richness of the game, I think its strength also comes from the fact that when Dan and I were making this, one of our intentions was we don't want people to feel like they need to be like Edward Said to play this game. We don't
00:17:52
Speaker
want them to feel like they need to know every single fact and date to be able to engage in this conversation. And rather, the game invites difference because when someone looks at a question, for example, about what we do with the settlements, I'm just using that because it's a really popular one.
00:18:10
Speaker
someone can look at that. Like Dan and I both looked at that question and we approached it completely differently. She looked at it from a design perspective where it was like, well, that material can be really useful for us if we want to either destroy the settlements and rebuild them, or we just rehouse people in it. And I looked at it from a much different perspective of, well, of course we can't use the settlements because aesthetically and
00:18:34
Speaker
and via memory that can must be really traumatizing. Each question, the more you flesh it out, the more that you see people from different trades, from different professions, from different experiences, from different classes, from different languages, approaching it. I suppose our job as facilitators is to guide that conversation between them, between those differences.
00:18:57
Speaker
No, I think it's it's that I hate to say this, but it's like there's no real wrong answer. It's actually what you put down on this paper. What does that evolve? How does someone build up on what you've done? And that's why this idea of the person next to you having, you know, the person who's speaking, the person next to them has to be writing. So there's always this active thing happening within the game and that people are actually taking in the ideas rather than just waiting for their turn to speak.
00:19:26
Speaker
Serona, while you were talking about the settlements and how both you and Dana are coming at it from different perspectives, it reminded me of a trip that I took to South Africa. I visited Robben Island in Cape Town and Robben Island was this awful prison in which they
00:19:44
Speaker
incarcerated hundreds of political prisoners, including Mandela. It made me think about what we would do with the prisons here. And I started this conversation with some friends. And for me, I would not want to keep these prisons, you know, the Israeli prisons which have incarcerated so many of our comrades, our brothers and sisters,
00:20:06
Speaker
But some, you know, I guess these places of like deep trauma, where massive violence have occurred, it's quite common around the world that these places are turned into memorial sites. So it's really interesting to hear all these different perspectives. And I think the fact that this game can be used for all these different contexts really speaks to the shared experience of
00:20:28
Speaker
so many people from our region but also beyond who have only ever experienced colonial and imperial domination keeping us in a colonial temporal reality where the future is unattainable it's almost considered a luxury to to imagine a different reality and so
00:20:45
Speaker
I think this game really changes that. You've both touched upon this a little bit, but I wanted to ask about some of the more interesting answers you've had in the game. I'm sure all of them have been really interesting and enlightening, which, if there are any answers that particularly stood out for you or surprised you.
00:21:06
Speaker
I think one of the things, one of the, where the conversation deviated, because I think the question that we initially played, and I realized I haven't been very good at writing down which questions we actually played during each session. I think I've written them down on a piece of paper and then completely forgotten, but it was, what is the first step in making a return happen?
00:21:24
Speaker
And the conversation then turned to, you know, there were several people there who were from a nearby refugee camps and they were talking about like, well, what opportunities would be available for me when I go back? Like, do I want to go back? I have a tie to Lebanon. And so this whole conversation around
00:21:44
Speaker
despite having so little rights in Lebanon, that there was still this connection to this space, to this community. And then there was someone else saying, I don't want to go back to my village where I'm going to have to live with all of these people that I've lived with for all my life. I'm not going to go from one space to have them be the same people I live with in my old space. I found that quite interesting.
00:22:08
Speaker
because it's very different from the experience I have as a kind of a diasporic Palestinian who grew up in Canada. So I think that was one of the more and then kind of like it hit you in a way to think about, okay, these are the things that they're thinking about in terms of
00:22:24
Speaker
What's the first thing to make a return happen? No, no, I want to know what what if I have this, you know, I have a life here. I built this life. Is that completely taken away when I go there? What am I going to do? Is this something that I'm just going to start from zero once again? Another interesting answer that took place or it wasn't an interesting answer. I think it kind of came after, as we call it in research, the post interview talk. Once you turn off the once you turn off the recorder,
00:22:51
Speaker
And it was people just looking at each other and being like, I think there's gonna be a lot of bloodshed. And I thought I hadn't been wanting to think of it that way. But yeah, those are the two, I guess because that was the most recent experience I had. And those are the two that really stuck with me. I think that point you just said, Dana, of like,
00:23:17
Speaker
Oh, this is the thing that people are thinking about. So yeah, you again, like approaching a question one way and then someone else coming at it from a completely different angle, but that in of itself then re-orient you to think about those other conditions. And I think I remember during our first iteration at the mosaic rooms, I remember actually it was in your group where you, and maybe it's better if you speak on it, but the person who
00:23:43
Speaker
I think mentioned policing or prisons in the group's reaction to them. Do you remember that? Yeah, I think it was one of the people who was in the group didn't really see a problem with the police, like having a police force, probably thinking about the police that you have here in the UK, whereas about maybe three or four other people were just like, what do you mean? How could you think that we need a police
00:24:11
Speaker
in Palestine and there was this discussion where it didn't turn heated, actually. I think people were really good at beginning to understand that there are different points of views and this person kind of just didn't really think about, you know, abolishing police or anything. But then it's like the point is that you're not really meant to agree, kind of putting these ideas down. And then how do you build on that? We also had in the first iteration a
00:24:39
Speaker
It was interesting because one of the questions was, would liberation include a Palestinian ruling class?
00:24:48
Speaker
reactions to that, I think, because it ultimately, it unfurls into many other different questions, questions of, you know, participants had very visceral reactions to this, to this one, where someone drew a guillotine. And, and others were talking about, talking about methods essentially of transformative justice, like, how do we, how do we approach people about redistributing their wealth? How do we approach people about like,
00:25:18
Speaker
privatised land? How do we make privatised land public again?
Confronting Biases and Challenging Narratives
00:25:23
Speaker
What happens when people don't want to give up the wealth that they have? What happens to them? And so it was, again, it wasn't necessarily to agree on something, but it was rather to unpack where everyone stood. And then there were ensuing, I wouldn't want to say debates, but just people talking about their perspectives. And there was a really long discussion around
00:25:48
Speaker
how do we create accountability process around the elite, for example. And it became about who governs the government, whatever a government may look like in all of this. But all of that came from one question. And I found that to be really interesting. I don't know. We've had loads of reactions. And the ones that I find really interesting is when people get really frustrated when we ask them, we gently nudge them in a different way.
00:26:15
Speaker
And a lot of reactions I've heard has been like, I've been like, okay, let's talk about that. And they'll be like, well, I'm trying. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's just us confronting ourselves and in our own conditions. But I think that's part of the process. And I think, Dana, you said something earlier where it was like people
00:26:35
Speaker
needing to wait to speak and that reminds me of I think one of the main things of when we created the game. I think because we didn't, I mean Palestinians essentially like our return and other people's returns have been snatched from us and it's been placed within a very like hegemonic process dictated by the UN and by the IMF and all of these governing bodies and when Palestinians have attempted to implement their return
00:27:03
Speaker
whether through the Great March of Return or what we saw during the unity in Tafalda with people in Jordan and in Lebanon walking back to Palestine. We see the very material ramifications of that. And so hopefully this game is a very humble, small way of us not seeking that permission. I've just remembered one really nice response or
00:27:31
Speaker
wouldn't say a really nice response, but it was a discussion that took place regarding the return question is, are these kind of status of Palestinians, you know, one with ID card, one from Gaza, one from Jordan, do they remain? And is it something that's going to be stamped on me if I return? I think that was a very powerful question and thing to think about. And it's amazing how much context
00:27:57
Speaker
changes, you know, who's in the room, changes the responses, because that experience, I think that the crowds of people we played with generally in London is quite a homogeneous, I'm not saying that Palestinians are, but you know, you're more or less from similar spaces, whereas in Lebanon, it wasn't. And so they were concerned with very different things than what we are concerned about. In the second iteration at May Day rooms,
00:28:25
Speaker
I remember one of the responses that I found to be really interesting was, and Danny, you just pointed it out, was it depends on the context, creates the response, and it really forces us to grapple with, I think, the facade of nationalism, but also I think the very real questions we are facing, like who are we beyond this crisis in many stances? One of the questions we asked was about what kind of education would we teach, something along those lines.
Insights from Playing the Game within Palestine
00:28:53
Speaker
And someone's first immediate response was, well, we have to then, the first thing we have to do is agree on a shared history and like one unified history. And I found that to be so, so fascinating because what does that history then look like? What is the necessity of an agreed shared history in order to then live together? I don't know, but it's, I don't have the answer, but I think that's part of the fun.
00:29:18
Speaker
I think it would be really interesting to play the game in Palestine as well. I mean, so much of what you both have been talking about has related to Palestinian communities in exile. But, you know, return isn't just a question for those in exile in the diaspora because, of course, you know, we are a collective, we are a people.
00:29:36
Speaker
and return is really central to Palestinians wherever they may be. But also because Palestinians in Palestine are also exiled within their own homeland, there are so many internally displaced Palestinians among 48 Palestinians, there are so many refugees in the West Bank and in Gaza, and it would be
00:29:58
Speaker
I think really interesting to play the game here in Palestine and see sort of really like tease out those differences. And I guess this leads me on to like my final question, which is what do you envision for this project? What do you envision next? Do you have any plans to take it further beyond your trip to Chile?
00:30:20
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. Sarona and I have been thinking of different ideas. There's one thing that the participants actually asked about, which was, where can we see other people's responses? This idea of like an ideas bank, you could say.
00:30:36
Speaker
Which is which is something that requires a lot of funding because if it's this online accessible thing, you know But is an excellent idea because it's like actually how did other people? That I've never met before or that are playing this game in London or they're playing this game in Santiago A lot of them were really interested in what people in Santiago would say actually say where can I see these responses?
00:30:56
Speaker
you know, what were their, what was their take on it. So this idea of a, I guess, ideas bank to our question bank. We're also playing with form. So this idea of, you know, when do we get to an iteration that we're both happy to just release publicly as something that, you know, can be purchased, downloaded, whatever it is, and played, you know, that moves beyond Sorona and I.
00:31:21
Speaker
And then in terms of what do you do with these rolls of paper that contain this data or these ideas, does it turn into a sort of book that plays with different forms?
00:31:34
Speaker
Yeah, but I think in the immediate, that's one thing. And translation is another one, I think, getting into Arabic is really, really important for the both of us. And seeing where else other organizations would like to invite us to play, because I think the more kind of we do it around the world, the more we gather a better picture of what it is that we're doing and what this ends up. At the end of the day, this needs to live beyond Serana and I.
00:32:01
Speaker
So Seron and Dan, I really want to keep chatting to you both, but I'm afraid we're going to have to leave it there. But thank you so much for joining me on Rethinking Palestine. Thank you for having us.
00:32:17
Speaker
Rethinking Palestine is brought to you by Ashabaka, the Palestinian policy network. Ashabaka is the only global independent Palestinian think tank whose mission is to produce critical policy analysis and collectively imagine a new policymaking paradigm for Palestine and Palestinians worldwide. For more information or to donate to sport our work, visit al-ashabaka.org. And importantly, don't forget to subscribe to Rethinking Palestine, wherever you listen to podcasts.