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Lois Reiss and David Reiss
289 Plays9 months ago
A much-loved woman, mother, wife, community member develops a gambling addiction. In order to feed her addiction, she turns to murdering family...then strangers.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Theme
00:00:24
bclawson
Well, hello listeners, I'm Bridget.
00:00:26
Caroline
And I'm Caroline.
00:00:28
bclawson
You are listening to Hearth Home and Homicide, a family production about family murders. Caroline and I narrate each story, and Andy is our producer. As Caroline and I talk about each family murder, we're not only keen on watching justice unfold for the killer, whatever that may look like, but we're especially sensitive for victims and their family. Keep them in the top of our mind and, you know, murders have such a ripple effect that never ends. Our podcasts do include violence and trauma, so listener discretion is advised.
Washington Weather Patterns
00:01:17
bclawson
So, hey, Caroline, it's it's
00:01:21
bclawson
It's really, really, really summer. I mean, we're it's August. I can't believe it.
00:01:27
Caroline
I know, in the thick of it. And Washington gets different summers now than they did when I was a kid. There's little pockets of normalcy, quote unquote, but for the most part, we're getting hotter and drier over here.
00:01:39
bclawson
Yeah, I agree. Although we got to think back to this last spring, that was that was a rainy even into the first part of the summer.
00:01:48
Caroline
It's rainy.
00:01:51
bclawson
So I think what's changed for me is I can't predict it anymore.
00:01:55
Caroline
Yeah, well, yeah, that's the big one. But still, you know, not that I need anyone to move here, you can visit all you like, but I think we're full. But but I do feel like Washington Pacific Northwest has really done okay so far in the climate crisis we find ourselves in.
00:02:05
bclawson
We're full.
00:02:13
bclawson
Certainly the Pacific side of the state is doing good right now, so fingers crossed.
00:02:17
Caroline
Yeah.
Case Introduction: Lois Reese
00:02:22
bclawson
Today we're going to be talking about a killer by the name of Lois Reese, who was normal one minute and a killer the next, and we're going to get into it. And she murdered her husband. So this family murder takes place in Minnesota. The unlikely suspect has been labeled some things that I don't particularly like. The gambling grandma, grandma killer. And this one I like, wax worm killer. And we'll explain more about that. Colorful, various and sundry other nicknames float around from time to time because this this was a famous case sort of because of just how
00:03:08
bclawson
unpredictable that was. So it stands out as highly, highly unpredictable killing. Nobody close to this family saw anything coming. um I don't even know if the killer saw it coming. that's
Lois Reese's Background
00:03:22
bclawson
That's one of the mysteries of this one.
00:03:22
Caroline
Thank
00:03:24
bclawson
So what's going on with this killer and her family? So Lois Reese.
00:03:27
Caroline
you.
00:03:28
bclawson
Lois was born in 1962. She was raised in Rochester, Minnesota. She was one of five children. She had a normal upbringing in this land of lakes with recreation and family at the center. Her father was an engineer with IBM. Her mom was a stay-at-home mom in the vernacular of the day. Today she would probably be called a, she wouldn't be called anything, I hope, other than mom.
00:03:58
Caroline
No, I liked what you I like what you said because as I was I must tell you as I was diving into this before we recorded today, like I had this phrase in my head for the same thing. So I think you should say it because I think it is the new title.
00:04:11
bclawson
Well, i i I think that one of the terms that I like to use, if you're going to have to label people who stay home, take care of the home and the family, would be a domestic engineer.
00:04:23
Caroline
Boom.
00:04:24
bclawson
Yes.
00:04:26
Caroline
that That is the title. Let's not mention it.
00:04:28
bclawson
I agree. and And a domestic engineer is just like farming on steroids because you've got seasonal stuff going on and you've got live animals running around your homestead, you know.
00:04:36
Caroline
Oh. Oh really? Totally.
00:04:43
bclawson
So anyway, um you know, anyone who works from home, you know, knows that moms really do work in a never done workspace.
00:04:54
Caroline
Mm hmm.
00:04:54
bclawson
So you have to be
00:04:56
Caroline
Totally.
00:04:56
bclawson
It's true still true that a parent's job is son to son.
00:04:58
Caroline
Yes.
00:05:03
Caroline
Yes.
00:05:03
bclawson
And ah so for the dads to stay home, you know, homages to you and moms who stay home, ah good for you and whatever floats your boat.
00:05:09
Caroline
Yep.
00:05:18
bclawson
But in 1962, raising a family and being able to do that on one income was the norm.
00:05:26
Caroline
Yeah, totally.
00:05:27
bclawson
as not the norm anymore.
Family and Business Ventures
00:05:30
bclawson
So, one noteworthy aspect of Lois' young life is that her mother was a hoarder.
00:05:30
Caroline
Well, even if we wanted it to be.
00:05:38
bclawson
Now, Lois was embarrassed by her mother's hoarding and she never once had her friend come over to her house.
00:05:49
bclawson
According to Psychology Today, children of hoarders often fail to meet developmental milestones, and they experience deep isolation, depression, and anxiety throughout their lives. Now, the only reason I am quoting Psychology Today is when I ran across Lois Reese and I began to do research on her background, and this hoarder of a mother came up i I had to know what does that do to you?
00:06:23
Caroline
Right.
00:06:24
bclawson
And I never had thought about it before.
00:06:27
Caroline
Well, and I think it's, you know, I think, I mean, it's big and hoarding is so much bigger. I mean, Amy made a whole show about it. That's like incredibly popular. It is so much bigger of an issue than I think any of us give credence to in terms of a mental health crisis issue. But yeah, I mean, kids who are hiding their entire family lives from their other peers at school. I don't think that's necessarily abnormal. But what does that do? And is that the same as the hoarding? Or is there a compounding of that when you begin at a young age to separate lives and hide one life from the other? Does that make sense?
00:07:06
bclawson
Yes, I think that's well said. And I think that another point you made in that observation is that You know, somebody walking around with a mental issue, a mental health issue, um it's not just an isolated, you can't ah you can't slice it off.
00:07:27
Caroline
No.
00:07:32
Caroline
Right.
00:07:32
bclawson
it It becomes part of your coping strategy
00:07:36
Caroline
Totally.
00:07:37
bclawson
and it's And I and would say at a mild level, everybody's got something, but something as severe as hoarding, which can lead to all kinds of bad results in terms of your health, physical and mental.
00:07:42
Caroline
Right, yes. Yeah.
00:07:52
Caroline
yeah
00:07:54
bclawson
I i feel for her at this early stage in her life, and um it's going to pop up.
00:07:55
Caroline
Yes.
00:08:03
bclawson
One noteworthy aspect of Lois' young life so was this hiding and disconnection and isolation and all of that.
00:08:12
Caroline
Yes.
00:08:16
bclawson
Lois was an okay student as a kid and she fell in love with David Reese in high school and she dropped out after 11th grade. And undoubtedly she struggled due to her home situation. So she was 20 when she married 19 year old ah from high school, David Reese. David had gone directly into the Navy after high school and After he completed his service in the Navy David and Lois started building their family.
00:08:49
bclawson
So here is this high school, sweetheart um Starting to build a family they got married they had two girls and a boy To support his family David got a job as a forklift driver and
00:08:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:09:05
bclawson
But Dave started to ah want to own his own business. So he started his own bait and tack shop. And he was like a lot of other Minnesotans who loved the outdoors and outdoor recreating was his thing. So he wanted to be outdoors. He wanted to make his living outdoors. He wanted to do all of that and he did it. And the family moved to Blooming Prairie, Minnesota.
00:09:35
bclawson
I just love that name.
00:09:37
Caroline
That is pretty cute.
00:09:38
bclawson
It's just, can you imagine what that looks like in, say, May?
00:09:44
Caroline
You ride like a blooming foot prairie.
00:09:45
bclawson
just but I live on the Blooming Prairie in Minnesota. David started to really ah grow his business. And to help the family financially, Lois opened a daycare, a home daycare. So she didn't have to leave home. She just opened a daycare there where they lived. And she could make an income for the family. And um her clients and their kids loved Lois. She was very well regarded as a child minder, just a nice lady. Everybody loved her. They knew
The Murder of David Reese
00:10:21
bclawson
David. They loved David. you know Everything was good. and Ultimately, David followed his instincts and began a one-product business. Remember now, he wanted to be a um you know he wanted to run a bait and tackle shop. That's going to be
00:10:40
bclawson
around people who are enjoying the out of doors.
00:10:44
Caroline
Right.
00:10:44
bclawson
But now he's decided he wants a one product business. Now remember, you know, he probably got stuck minding that store. So a bait and tackle shop is going to be a store.
00:10:54
Caroline
Right.
00:10:57
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:58
bclawson
And, you know, you got to handle the inventory and that means time away from what you love, which is the bait and tackle shop.
00:11:01
Caroline
Right.
00:11:07
bclawson
He wanted to be a patron of a bait and tackle shop to go fishing, you know?
00:11:11
Caroline
I was just going to say, yeah, he, you know, maybe he wanted a part-time gig at a bait and tackle shock for the discount. I don't know that he wanted the burden of, of business ownership because that is the thing I think that's sort of smoke and muris about business ownership is like, there's this whole business side that's a real downer.
00:11:20
bclawson
Yeah.
00:11:29
Caroline
If that's not what you're into, you got to really love the other side, you know?
00:11:29
bclawson
Oh, I know.
00:11:32
bclawson
Oh, I know, I know. He still longed to be more outside and in nature, just not about nature. He wanted to be in nature then rather than be inside.
00:11:43
Caroline
Alright.
00:11:46
bclawson
So one of the things that he learned when he was in the bait and tackle store business is that he noticed that wax worms were very lucrative product. He decided to focus on wax worms, which would give him more time outdoors. He'd be interacting with the bait network and supply people, and he would be trying out this best bait. He would be more outside talking to people, and he would be more in contact with people in a larger realm.
00:12:28
bclawson
So I want to talk about wax worms because I fished with wax worms in rural Georgia when I was growing up. And it's not like an earthworm ah with a long red wiggly body that you have to dig up after it rains. you know I remember doing all of that stuff. A wax worm is more like a caterpillar. And it's not pretty and fuzzy like a caterpillar, though. It's got some color to it, but it's it's it's hairless, just so to speak.
00:13:01
Caroline
I'm picturing like a giant maggot like they show on the Naked and Afraid shows that people eat just you know or Bear Grylls will eat it for just for show.
00:13:11
bclawson
Okay, and that ends our episode today while I go to the bathroom throw up.
00:13:15
Caroline
So gross. I'm picturing something very gross.
00:13:17
bclawson
Yeah, I mean, actually, you're technically right. You know, but wait, Caroline, wait, wait, there's more. There's more.
00:13:29
Caroline
I love it.
00:13:30
bclawson
Wax worms are used not just as bait, but in nature, they live as parasites in beehives and they cut through the wax as they grow. And they are beloved as food for birds, reptiles and other household pets. And for people who like to feed the wild versions of those pets. So, you know, ah you got a lot of people who are into these wax worms.
00:13:56
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:02
bclawson
But wait, wait, again, there's more. It's a huge market. It's a huge market. I'm so excited. I'm really excited for Dave, but it's a huge market. But research has revealed that these wax worms, they actually eat and destroy plastic.
00:14:22
Caroline
Oh heck yes.
00:14:23
bclawson
So that that you might hear about them in a larger ah frame, listeners.
00:14:29
Caroline
Yeah. Get your farms going people.
00:14:31
bclawson
Yeah, they it may be one of one of the ways that the humanity is going to get out of pass plastic pollution.
00:14:39
Caroline
right I hope so.
00:14:40
bclawson
So I hope so. Go wax worms.
00:14:43
Caroline
Hey, I read that and I wanted to start my own farm.
00:14:43
bclawson
I'm for you.
00:14:45
Caroline
So I mean, you know, those looking to do their own thing. Maybe you get on the ground level of the waxworm craze, you know?
00:14:50
bclawson
Yeah. ah You know, I keep, you know, I'm into vermiculture.
00:14:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:14:57
bclawson
I'm kind of into it. I'm not as devoted to it as some people I know, but it's good for the garden and I love it.
00:15:05
Caroline
yeah
00:15:05
bclawson
And I have a, you know, a worm farm that it really does produce liquid gold and um And so anyway, oh I love waxworms, except for what you said about them, but you were right about that. They turn into moths, you know, and I'm not real sure that I love moths, especially when it comes to your wool.
00:15:28
Caroline
ah Yeah. I mean, they, Yeah, they're they're just a less pretty butterfly. They don't need any less love than a butterfly.
00:15:39
bclawson
You're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. Some of the things that I call butterflies are not butterflies, they're moths, so. So anyway, wax worms, go David, go.
00:15:46
Caroline
I mean, I think.
00:15:49
Caroline
Yes.
00:15:50
bclawson
This wax worm business started by David Reese, boomed. It made really good money for Dave and Lois and their family. They lived well and they ran their business on their property because they had acreage. They employed many people who loved Dave, Lois, and the three kids. So the co-mingling of the business on their large home and surrounding property was like an extended family, and all was well.
00:16:21
bclawson
This is a nice way to live, if you ask me.
00:16:24
Caroline
Yeah.
00:16:27
bclawson
That is until 56-year-old Lois murdered Dave In the bathroom of their home, she shot him in his center mass. Then she covered his dead body with a tarp and shoved towels under the door to stave off the stench of his decomposing body. She left text messages to the workers of the waxworm business that were headquartered again, you know, in and out building on their property.
00:16:59
bclawson
Not to bother Dave, don't bother Dave. you know They're going to know he's there because of his truck being there.
00:17:06
Caroline
Yeah.
00:17:06
bclawson
But she said he's sick. And you know he's in the house. He's sick. He doesn't want anybody else to get sick. ah So leave him alone. He has everything he needs to take care of himself. And after the killing and the text messages were sent, ah Lois got into her car and she drove away. So there we have our family murder. What in the hell?
00:17:34
Caroline
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, what in the hell? And this the whole, like, the brazenness, I guess, that it would take, this is all on your property, these are outbuildings. I don't know what that murder looked like or when it happened, but like, and then you're just immediately texting people to like, just stay away, we're all sick. I don't, I mean, it all is so crazy.
Lois on the Run
00:17:58
Caroline
It's almost a little scary, you know, to me.
00:18:01
bclawson
It's almost like, you know, I want to be able to tell a story about, you know, a brick fell on her head and then she killed Dave.
00:18:06
Caroline
um Yeah.
00:18:08
bclawson
That I could understand. You've got a head injury and you don't know what you're doing. But no, no, no, this is like, la, la, la, la, bam.
00:18:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:17
bclawson
La la la la, you know, it's just out of nowhere.
00:18:20
Caroline
yeah
00:18:22
bclawson
So let's talk about the motive Lois had for killing her husband of 40 years, Caroline.
00:18:30
Caroline
I mean, that's a whole lifetime.
00:18:31
bclawson
40 years.
00:18:33
Caroline
I mean, that's.
00:18:35
bclawson
ah Yeah, it is. The father of her children. not just her helpmate, not just her partner in life, not just her beloved husband, but this is the father of her children.
00:18:41
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:46
bclawson
So she's done this to her children.
00:18:49
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:49
bclawson
And the mastermind behind the waxworm king of Minnesota that gave her a wonderful life. So she's killed her income stream. She has killed her husband. She's killed the father of her children. What in the hell was on her mind? While Dave and his employees were busy making a waxworm fortune, Lois retired her daycare business and started gambling.
00:19:17
Caroline
Oh, no.
00:19:19
bclawson
So, okay, wow, what fun. Okay, not when I say what fun because I've done it, but not large sums of money.
00:19:27
Caroline
I mean,
00:19:29
bclawson
She had grandkids by that time and she was a wonderful mother. So she would go to the casino, but then she'd come home and she'd make cookies with the grandkids and they'd come over and they'd run around the acreage.
00:19:39
Caroline
that is a nice life. That's a nice life if you're budgeting for your life.
00:19:41
bclawson
It's a nice life.
00:19:43
Caroline
I mean, that's a really fun way to live.
00:19:45
bclawson
It is, but you know, Caroline, grandkids grow up. And grandmother time might not be as fulfilling for Lois as it was 15 or so years ago when it was all new and very rewarding and, oh my God, they love me.
00:19:58
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:01
bclawson
I love them.
00:20:02
Caroline
yeah
00:20:02
bclawson
Look at all the wonderful things I can do. This is so fun. And then she started to gamble. And gambling must have felt like methamphetamine, you know, to her every time she won.
00:20:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:16
bclawson
And she was really into slots. Well, that's what me too.
00:20:19
Caroline
Right. It's the dopamine hit.
00:20:22
bclawson
Me too.
00:20:25
Caroline
Even when you don't win anything, you're getting all these lights and sound. they there it's It's entirely based to give you that methamphetamine style hit to the brain. I mean, they've done their work.
00:20:37
bclawson
absolutely Absolutely. Give me my dopamine and give it to me now.
00:20:40
Caroline
Yes.
00:20:42
bclawson
And when you walk into a casino, you park, you walk to the casino and you walk in that door, it's air conditioned and it's going ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, you won.
00:20:45
Caroline
Oh.
00:20:53
Caroline
has because
00:20:55
bclawson
It's just, it's, yeah, that's right.
00:20:55
Caroline
um free liberty Have you visited our info booth?
00:20:57
bclawson
So anyway,
00:20:59
Caroline
Yeah, I mean it's just it's designed to take everything you've got.
00:21:03
bclawson
When a casino opened up near my house in 2008, I had to go there only when I had a $20 bill in my pocket along with my casino card and my driver's license and no credit cards or debit cards because I learned my lesson.
00:21:21
Caroline
Mm-hmm.
00:21:22
bclawson
One year gambling and you have your debit card. Uh, you know, you're going to go to that ATM machine to get your money back that you just lost.
00:21:33
Caroline
Yes. Yes.
00:21:36
bclawson
And, um, anyway, you and I, when we go to the casino, which is rare now because COVID hit and then we kind of grew up a little bit and then.
00:21:43
Caroline
Yeah, it got weird.
00:21:46
bclawson
At least I did. And then we still have a $20 limit, maybe a $40 limit if it's our birthday or something, except for that one trip that we took together to Vegas.
00:21:56
Caroline
Right.
00:21:59
bclawson
And you just got back from Las Vegas.
00:22:01
Caroline
I did.
00:22:01
bclawson
So, you know, let's just not talk about, we're going to skim over that.
00:22:01
Caroline
I did.
00:22:05
bclawson
So anyway, but we get the gambling thing.
00:22:07
Caroline
i Yeah, I didn't lose my house.
00:22:09
bclawson
We get it.
00:22:10
Caroline
I'll tell you that much. You know, I do like you're saying it's it's a lesson you have to learn, preferably vicariously through others, honestly. But you do have to learn. Yeah, don't bring yourself an out. Don't bring any false thinking about winning anything back. And that's why I play with the 20 and $40 because a lot of times a trick I have to do for myself is to play, and when I'm up like 10 bucks up, 20 bucks up, doubled my money, I pull my ticket out, I cash it out, and I start fresh with a 20 or a 40. Because then that way, it's like I'm starting all over again. And if I leave with nothing after two hours, three hours, I spent less than I would have at a movie theater for two people. So I mean, it's in my mind, it can be a great time, but it is never going to be my income.
00:23:02
bclawson
Absolutely. and you know It was somewhere in my casino kate open, not far from my house, got into slot machine time and where I was learning these lessons about gambling.
00:23:17
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:17
bclawson
um I also researched, why am I doing this? This is the stupidest thing I've ever done. and um And I found out through my research that the human mind ah would rather, ah it loves, wait a minute, it loves winning far less than it hates losing.
00:23:47
Caroline
Yeah, i I feel that.
00:23:49
bclawson
That is an aspect of the human experience that is ah totally brain centered.
00:23:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:24:00
bclawson
um That we are hardwired. to love winning less than we hate losing.
00:24:10
Caroline
yeah
00:24:10
bclawson
So if I'm not winning, you would think that logically I would just quit. I'm not winning. I'm going to just quit. But that is not the brain path. The brain path is don't you let this machine beat you.
00:24:27
Caroline
Yeah, you need a less loss than the one we just experienced. Go again. Cause we could lose less than that. You know what I mean?
00:24:33
bclawson
Yes, right.
00:24:34
Caroline
Like we could do better in our loss. Yeah, I get it.
00:24:37
bclawson
So back to Lois, ah who apparently did not look this up about the winning and the losing. Over the years, Lois started gambling on slots. She won thousands of dollars, but for every win, there was 100-fold of losses. She didn't track that part. It's a pretty slow process, but when more than $100,000 has been gambled away, and I'm not kidding, David put his foot down and gave her less and less money to gamble with.
00:25:13
bclawson
Remember, she's not working at the home-based daycare anymore. So she has to go to him for money.
00:25:19
Caroline
Well in a hundred thousand dollars
00:25:19
bclawson
And remember, she doesn't have a daycare. She doesn't have any daycare to take her mind off of things either.
00:25:22
Caroline
he
00:25:26
Caroline
Well, that's the other thing. She doesn't have a job to keep herself busy, no matter what the job is, whether it brings an income or not. Like like you said, the grandparenting isn't enough to occupy the time in the mind, but like, how long do you take you to spend $100,000 like on gambling?
00:25:38
bclawson
Right.
00:25:41
Caroline
I mean, because it was that a year, that's far too much in a year, but was that a month or six months? Because that's a problem.
00:25:47
bclawson
I don't know, he gave her a lot and she won a lot and she lost more than that.
00:25:52
Caroline
Oof.
00:25:53
bclawson
But she was always needing to go back to the casino to get back her losses. ah you know But wait, it gets worse.
00:26:00
Caroline
classic oh my god do you know how many college
00:26:04
bclawson
The wax worms got better, but Lois got worse. In a short period of time, Lois braced herself and buckled up, Caroline. Lois Reese gambled away. $500,000 that her father left her in his will. So when she got her own money...
00:26:26
Caroline
Yeah, her grandkids needed college tuition, I'm sure. Like, that's everybody. Oh, man.
00:26:33
bclawson
Well, I mean, she's entitled to spend her inheritance the way she wants to spend it, but why don't you just burn it?
00:26:36
Caroline
True. True. Well.
00:26:40
bclawson
I mean, why would you go through the misery of watching yourself lose whatever it was that your father did in life to save up that amount of money?
00:26:49
Caroline
Well, the stress, the stress that must come after you've done that, like, cause like you're saying she's trapped in this brain cycle now, which is sad, but she's trapped in it because she loses $100,000. Her so much that her husband cuts her off. Well, now she's got to dip into this 500,000 and that's gone real fast too. The stack up of the, cause the rational minds in there, it may not be on, but it is in there. And so the stacking of these misdeeds that deep down she does really know are bad.
The Capture of Lois Reese
00:27:22
Caroline
But she keeps stacking. She's in the brain loop and the brain says, we can fix it. We can fix it. We can lose less. We can hedge our loss and be fine. And it's just bad.
00:27:33
bclawson
Yes, I mean, you know, she's lost so much money now that she the You know, I'm thinking back to her childhood.
00:27:43
Caroline
Yeah.
00:27:43
bclawson
Did she miss some developmental milestones because of her mother's mental illness?
00:27:51
Caroline
Yeah.
00:27:52
bclawson
ah Did her isolation cause her to make up, make believe rules of the universe?
00:27:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:27:59
bclawson
I mean, you know, I'm just trying to look for a reason, you know, why are you doing this?
00:28:04
Caroline
Well, and did she do it so quickly that David didn't even really have time to notice, hey, my wife is off. This isn't right. And we're losing money. Let's get her to it.
00:28:14
bclawson
I think it was years, it was several years of this gambling. and heat But at some point he knew when this money that she had gotten from the ah the father, Lois's father, to fight to take a half million dollars and lose it gambling probably, I don't know, over three, four, five years, I don't know.
00:28:27
Caroline
Yeah.
00:28:38
bclawson
But some that's a lot of money. That's 100,000 a year.
00:28:43
Caroline
Well, yeah, with nothing to show for.
00:28:44
bclawson
And you but you know that she's won. She's only counting up what she's won. She's not counting up what she's losing.
00:28:50
Caroline
Yeah.
00:28:52
bclawson
She's just not able to see the big picture. So that kind of tells me that she's got some kind of thought pattern defect going on big time.
00:29:04
Caroline
Yeah.
00:29:04
bclawson
So law enforcement and the prosecutor who charged Lois with David's murder, because she does get caught, is certain that he refused to give her more gambling money. And when this happened, Lois shot him with a gun and killed him without any premeditation.
00:29:23
Caroline
Wow.
00:29:24
bclawson
She just, you know, they were having a fight.
00:29:25
Caroline
I mean that's
00:29:28
bclawson
And apparently they had fought before that time about money being lost the way that it was in the gambling. And with the employees on site and being a tight-knit family-like environment, you can bet that there was talk about the fighting.
00:29:46
Caroline
Yeah, right.
00:29:49
bclawson
And so, you know, they had to come up with a motive. You know, motive is not required in a trial, but it's ah it's nice to have if you're the prosecutor.
00:29:58
Caroline
Yeah, you need to remove all reasonable doubts, so a motive really helps to do that.
00:30:01
bclawson
Right. Yeah. But they don't think it was premeditated at all. I mean, you know, they did not, they did not charge her with ah murder in the first degree, premeditated murder.
00:30:09
Caroline
one yeah
00:30:14
bclawson
There again, she had to have gone to get the gun and killed him and probably lured him to the bathroom. That's what I'm thinking.
00:30:23
Caroline
Yeah. Good point.
00:30:24
bclawson
Like, I don't want to give her any slack because she killed him.
00:30:28
Caroline
Well, yeah.
00:30:30
bclawson
or she had to wait for him to go into the bathroom, and so she stalked him.
00:30:32
Caroline
And. And what's the end game there?
00:30:34
bclawson
I mean, you know, I mean i don't think they keep their guns in the bathroom is my point.
00:30:35
Caroline
Like what she cannot be thinking.
00:30:40
Caroline
Well, yeah, and you're right. There's a form of meditation, premeditation that goes on when you're walking to the gun. I mean, when you put the gun in your hand, these are moments that begin to stack up where you could make alternate decisions. But I don't, I guess I don't know enough to know.
00:30:55
bclawson
Well, after she shot him and killed him, And she shot shot him center mass. I mean, you know she was not pissed off and go shoot his foot. um you know she And she premeditated a pretty good way of forestalling for a time.
00:31:16
Caroline
Right? Yeah.
00:31:17
bclawson
Him being found She hit him away in a small space.
00:31:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:31:22
bclawson
She put those towels up under the door She covered his body with a tarp.
00:31:27
Caroline
That's
00:31:30
bclawson
She did what she could do to hide the smell and she got in her car and she left and Sent all those emails about he's sick.
00:31:34
Caroline
crazy.
00:31:40
bclawson
Don't bother him.
00:31:41
Caroline
Yeah.
00:31:42
bclawson
And you know, Caroline, it worked and I'm sorry to say that it works because what comes next is heartbreaking. Thanks to her reassuring messages to his employees, no one tried to get to Dave to come out of the house or anything else. I mean his truck was parked where it usually was, so they knew he was there.
00:32:03
Caroline
Right.
00:32:03
bclawson
But they had an explanation. It wasn't until one of his kids called the employees to ask if they had seen him. And they started looking for him in the house. They, the kids, started looking for them in the house. And they found him in a state of decomposition under a tarp in the bathroom that had been blocked under the door by a towel. So now Lois's car was a 2005 Cadillac Escalade. She drove it to Iowa.
00:32:41
bclawson
where she was captured on a surveillance camera at a gas station. She asked an employee there for directions and then drove away. So on the YouTube, you can see her at the counter asking the question, you know, how do I get on highway thus and such?
00:33:00
Caroline
Yeah.
00:33:01
bclawson
She knew where the next, you know, she knew where, she knew or could find out through her phone where all the great places were to gamble.
00:33:10
Caroline
Oh, my gosh.
00:33:11
bclawson
She traveled as if she was on a casino tour, and she which actually sounds kind of fun, but such as she wound up in Florida with a plan for a long-term escape.
00:33:18
Caroline
and I was just going to say casino crawl.
00:33:27
bclawson
So she's had all this time to drive and gamble, drive and gamble, drive and gamble.
00:33:31
Caroline
All that time, the thinking time, I think overly think all the time, but driving, shh, are you kidding me?
00:33:38
bclawson
Yeah. All she had to do was pick an unsuspecting vacationer that looked like her enough to steal their identity. She had stolen $11,000 from the bank account that David set up for household expenses. So she was given a certain amount of money on a regular basis by David for household expenses. Well, she took that money. Thank God he put a lock down on the company bank account.
00:34:09
Caroline
Yeah, no kidding.
00:34:12
bclawson
She needed to win a mega lottery, which was surely just around the corner. She needed to do that, but she needed to steal someone's money because, you know, she's gambling on this casino tour and she needed their car because she knew that by now they're going to be looking for her catalade Cadillac Escalade. She knew she would have to kill her marks.
00:34:42
Caroline
Hmm.
00:34:43
bclawson
So she's already thinking, well, I could kill them.
00:34:45
Caroline
I mean, that's just crazy, no?
00:34:46
bclawson
You know, it's just crazy.
00:34:47
Caroline
I mean, you've gone, you've lost, you've lost your sane rational mind at this point.
00:34:48
bclawson
see
00:34:53
bclawson
Well, except she is able to read a map to where the next casino is.
00:34:57
Caroline
Well, it feels like having this vacation tour. it does This is very weird.
00:35:00
bclawson
she's got a way of she This woman has got a way of distancing herself from any critical thought about this might not be a good plan.
00:35:08
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:35:17
Caroline
But I mean, again, it goes back, youre this harkens right back to her childhood where she decided early on, no one's coming to my house, this is wrong. I know I shouldn't live like this, but I'm gonna go out there, yeah, I'm gonna lie and have two separate lives that never meet.
00:35:26
bclawson
I'm going to hide this. I'm going to hide this.
00:35:32
bclawson
Yes. Yes.
00:35:34
Caroline
God.
00:35:34
bclawson
But ding, ding, ding, Caroline. I think you're right. I think she's so accustomed to living two lives that she can think this way.
00:35:41
Caroline
Yeah. Oh.
00:35:46
bclawson
Okay. She's driving in her car. She's got $11,000. Okay. She stops her car. Now she's got $5,000. She stops her car, goes into the casino. She's got $1,000. I need a plan. What's my plan? I need to win a mega lottery. But for that, I need somebody else's identity, somebody else's car, and somebody else's money.
00:36:08
Caroline
Yeah.
00:36:09
bclawson
shes That's her line of thinking. So she knew she'd have to kill whoever she was going to get all this from. And she'd have to keep doing that until she had enough money to live forever under a new identity. She knew that eventually David's body would be discovered and the long arm of the law would be looking for her in her car. With her plan in mind, she stopped at Marina Village at Snug Harbor in Fort Myers Beach, Florida. And she went straight to the restaurant slash bar
00:36:49
bclawson
So now sadly we need to talk about her first murder victim other than David in her new plan.
00:36:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:36:59
bclawson
And this a victim's name is Pam Hutchinson. And I love Pam after reading all about her and it just makes me sick that she was as trusting as she was.
00:37:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:37:14
bclawson
Pamela, she knew she was known as Pam by her friends, Pamela Hutchinson lived in Bradenton, Florida and had just gone through a recent divorce from her husband of 20 years. So that's a long, long marriage and she's
00:37:31
Caroline
Yeah.
00:37:35
bclawson
getting away from her life for a little while. Just going to take a little vacation. Told all of her friends, you know, I just want to go to Fort Myers. I've been to Fort Myers Beach before. And I'm just, you know, I want to go see it again. And I just want to breathe free. And I just want to shuck all these bad feelings I have about the divorce. So while she was there, she posted on her Facebook page about how she was really enjoying herself. She was having a good time.
00:38:08
bclawson
59 year old, 59 years old. So to me, that's very young.
00:38:13
Caroline
Supri on.
00:38:13
bclawson
Pamela Hutchinson. um She arrived in Fort Myers Beach, Florida on April 3rd, 2018. She was going to help her friend scatter her husband's ashes on Sanibel. So this is a beach. So, you know, she had a plan. um She's going to help a friend. She's going to be with someone who's bereaved and she's going to help them throw ashes ah where her ah friend's husband wanted to have his ashes deposited.
00:38:42
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:52
bclawson
She was staying in room 404 at a hotel and the hotel employee ultimately discovered her body on April 9th. The hotel employees would have found Pamela sooner. But documents state that no one entered her room after someone claiming to be her called the front desk on April 6th and extended her stay by three more days. Authorities could not determine the exact time or date of her death, although they believed it transpired on April 5th, between 746 PM and 834 PM. Now, how did they know that?
00:39:34
bclawson
Well, once officers arrived at the scene, they noticed that Pamela's body lying on top of a pillow that appeared to be seared by gunshot. And just like David Reese, her body was in the early stages of decomposition. Pamela had been shot in the back and chest with bullets entering through her torso, injuring her heart and aorta, he killing her instantly, thank God.
00:39:54
Caroline
you
00:40:04
bclawson
The deputies further saw signs that pointed towards someone having slept on the guest bed. Pamela's belongings had also been left in disarray. Her purse was inside out. Her ID, bank cards, and jewelry were gone, and even her car was missing. Everything indicated that Pamela's death was a homicide. The detectives in charge were able to put together a timeline rather quickly through the time stamps on surveillance footage in and around the hotel where Pamela was staying.
00:40:32
Caroline
I just.
00:40:44
bclawson
A day after Pamela arrived in the city, she met Lois Reese and invited her back to her room. They left together soon after only to come back shortly before 1 AM on April 5th. From the CCTV footage, it seemed like Lois stayed the night with her new friend, as they were then seen having breakfast together at a restaurant that was a short walk away from the hotel. They even had dinner together before returning to Pamela's room at 7.46.
00:41:21
bclawson
Lois Reese left Pamela's room alone, according to the CCTV, almost an hour later at 8.34 PM on April 5th. So now we see where police got that timeline.
00:41:34
Caroline
Yeah.
00:41:35
bclawson
Sometime between the time that they went back to the room and the time that Lois Reese alone exited the room. She walked to the elevator and just stood there for about 14 minutes. 14 minutes? 14 minutes is a long time.
00:41:54
Caroline
Dude, two minutes is long.
00:41:55
bclawson
She just stood there
00:41:57
Caroline
Yeah, that's pretty crazy.
00:41:59
bclawson
Yeah, she she she then finally entered the ah the elevator. So when she stood there, was she like thinking about how delighted she is with herself? Or was she crying that she had become a killer?
00:42:18
Caroline
I mean, it's hard to know. It's genuinely hard to know. She's acting so brazen and without, seemingly without any feeling or remorse or accountability or any of it. But then, I don't know. And this this murder frightens me because I think Pam is like, i Pam seems like somebody I'd hang with. Like, I want to go to Fort Myers alone. I want to help a friend and then just go off on my own and do my own thing. like who like a lot of people like to travel alone and get away with themselves a lot of people enjoy meeting new people having lunch with these new people finding out all these fun new things and have it spending old I've done that before on vacation what I don't ever do is allow people to know where I'm staying what room I mean I do you know there's certain things that I just don't give up so it's unfortunate that that happened here but I could easily see when you're you know you don't even have to be young but like
00:43:14
Caroline
You meet a kindred spirit who's also traveling alone, and especially as women, we're like, oh, good, another woman, I can feel safer. Oh, man.
00:43:20
bclawson
Right, right.
00:43:21
Caroline
You know?
00:43:22
bclawson
This is at a quasi-resort area. I mean, these this hotel and the restaurant and the you know all the accoutrement of a nice place to go if you are wanting to get away and have a comfortable night's sleep and and um you know enjoy the coast and on and on and on.
00:43:28
Caroline
That's just scary.
00:43:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:44
bclawson
After reviewing the tapes, authorities said that Lois looked, quote, distraught and upset, end quote, and seemed to be, quote, unquote, possibly crying. That's at that 14 minute interval. So maybe she liked Pam.
00:44:05
Caroline
Maybe.
00:44:06
bclawson
And, you know, she had a little bit of pity, but was it pity for herself that she's lost her friend to murder?
00:44:17
Caroline
I was going to say.
00:44:17
bclawson
Or was it pity for her friend that her friend got murdered by her? Or was it that they're misreading her?
00:44:26
Caroline
Well, that's the thing.
00:44:27
bclawson
They're misreading her.
00:44:28
Caroline
I'm wondering if she's what if she's.
00:44:28
bclawson
She could have been laughing. Maybe they interpreted crying, you know, as laughing.
00:44:32
Caroline
Well, what if she's just overwhelmed by the stress of this new life she's decided to take on? You know, I'm going to become a killer and assume identities and gamble my way to Mexico. You know, I mean, what if she's just stressed out because she hadn't considered, well, shoot, now they're going to find the body right away. Maybe that was before she called to say, oh, give me three more days, you know, calling as Pam, because I think they said that somebody called on the sixth. So she's leaving the night of the fifth.
00:45:01
bclawson
Right.
00:45:01
Caroline
Maybe she's crying cause she doesn't quite have her plan together yet, which would be diabolical. And I feel like it matches all the other behavior, but maybe she does have a conscience at this moment. I don't know.
00:45:12
bclawson
I don't know either. I just know that, you know, her entire world and all the people in it, and here I'm talking about Lois, thought that she was normal, thought that she was wonderful, thought that she was kind and loving.
00:45:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:45:28
bclawson
40 years of marriage to the same man. Had daycare. Everybody loved her.
00:45:34
Caroline
Yeah.
00:45:35
bclawson
And there's videotape of her with her grandchildren, serving up cookies, laughing and having a good time.
00:45:41
Caroline
yeah
00:45:43
bclawson
And she was just someone that I think anyone down to a person, if they just met her on the street, they would say, there's a nice, you know, ah upper middle aged grandma type lady.
00:45:59
Caroline
Yeah, trustworthy, right out the gate, right?
00:46:00
bclawson
and
00:46:02
Caroline
I mean, that is what we think. Why would I not trust her?
00:46:05
bclawson
She said, nobody, I couldn't read a single thing about her that people would say she's a monster.
00:46:13
Caroline
Right.
00:46:13
bclawson
She's a killer. She's any of these things. They had to tag her as the grandma killer, you know, the grandma murderer or something.
00:46:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:22
bclawson
In other words, this is a qualifier.
00:46:24
Caroline
Right.
00:46:24
bclawson
She's not really bad, but she did murder, you know, that kind of thing.
00:46:27
Caroline
Right. We didn't expect to do it. Actually did it.
00:46:33
bclawson
Anyway, law the long arm of the law family determined that Lois was Pamela's killer and that she killed her to steal her identity. And after all, the Minnesota woman had stolen Pamela's vehicle. She used her ID to retrieve $5,000 from her account before heading off to Texas, where U.S. Marshals and local authorities eventually apprehended her.
00:47:04
bclawson
Their immediate investigation revealed that Lois revealed that Lois, who was 56 years old at the time, jeez, that's so young to be killing like this.
00:47:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:14
bclawson
Anyway, you can't say she's got some form of, you know, old age onset, mental
00:47:18
Caroline
Dementia or something.
00:47:22
bclawson
No, she's 56 years old at the time. She had a gambling addiction. I mean, I'm sorry. That's too mild. she had a she She had a gambling addiction that was... I've never heard of anyone with a worse gambling addiction than this lady. She murdered her husband. s in ah Another way of saying she murdered her husband is she destroyed her entire family.
00:47:47
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:47
bclawson
I mean, you know, I'm sorry, but before she illegally took $11,000 out of his account, her ah her murder victim Pamela Hutchinson was a good friend to many people. She was mourned very deeply. Her friends say that she trusted people, and because of her trust in people, she paid with her life. So Lois Reese became Pam Hutchinson, or at least she tried. After a while, she made a weird off-plan move.
00:48:21
bclawson
she She switched back and used her own identity it when she went gambling in Louisiana.
00:48:25
Caroline
Hmm.
00:48:28
bclawson
Now, why would she do that?
00:48:29
Caroline
I don't know. That's, I don't gamble enough and murder people.
00:48:31
bclawson
I don't get that.
00:48:32
Caroline
to but You mean Pam.
00:48:32
bclawson
I i mean, you know maybe she was thinking, OK, so there so they're they probably know I killed Lois. you know
00:48:40
Caroline
And then, so I have to stop using Pam.
00:48:41
bclawson
I mean, excuse me, yes, sorry, sorry.
00:48:42
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:44
bclawson
I can't even think like this woman, but I'm trying, I'm really trying.
00:48:44
Caroline
No, you're right.
00:48:49
bclawson
Okay, they're gonna, she's probably thinking, okay, they're gonna know by now that I killed Pam.
00:48:54
Caroline
Yeah.
00:48:58
Caroline
Yeah.
00:48:58
bclawson
So ah I better not use Pam's identity.
00:49:04
Caroline
Yeah, because, yeah.
00:49:04
bclawson
So whose identity do I have?
00:49:07
Caroline
Shoot.
00:49:07
bclawson
Oh, I have this other lady called Lois.
00:49:13
bclawson
I mean, I don't know, I don't know, but I guess, anyway, she ah she became Pam, and then she changed back to who she was, and she was in Louisiana by now, and then she went back to Texas where she decided to use Pam Hutchinson's identity again.
00:49:13
Caroline
Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah, I think that's how it goes.
00:49:36
Caroline
Oh, okay. So it wasn't the original. They're going to know Pam. What the heck? She just says, obviously.
00:49:40
bclawson
Maybe she made a mistake the time that she used her own identity in Louisiana.
00:49:44
Caroline
I mean, maybe. Because you're right. Upholding lies is a lot of work. That's why I don't get in the business.
00:49:50
bclawson
Yeah, yeah. By then, you know, it was all over national news that Lois Reese, known to law enforcement as the killer grandma, ah that didn't go over very well in Minnesota because they were still calling her a loving wife, a loving mother, and a loving grandmother.
00:50:11
Caroline
Hmm.
00:50:11
bclawson
But I mean, they just couldn't believe it. They couldn't believe it.
00:50:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:15
bclawson
She was on the run after her gambling using Pam Hutchinson's money. She worked her way along the Gulf Coast from Fort Myers Beach eventually to South Padre Island in Texas. She left a big trail behind. She seemingly had no effort to hide her identity or even hide it all because of that one time she used her own identity
00:50:40
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:41
bclawson
I mean, this was coming out in bits and drips and drabs on the news ah on the news circuit. Her picture was snapped in all kinds of places.
00:50:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:52
bclawson
You know, you're photographed everywhere you go now, Caroline.
00:50:55
Caroline
Well, at this point in time, yeah I mean, I was even thinking about getting some dash cams just based on the TikTok videos I've been seeing, but I think, I think it's interesting to me, the CCTV, is that like a British thing or do we now have it too? And what does it stand for? Criminal conduct television or like, what do what do we, what, what is it? Tell me more.
00:51:14
bclawson
What is CTV?
00:51:15
Caroline
No CCTV. Cause I know that Britain has it. Like they, all the Europeans talk about it and it's
00:51:19
bclawson
It's closed closed caption TV.
00:51:26
Caroline
there's no
00:51:26
bclawson
So there's no caption like this is Bridget.
00:51:30
Caroline
I thought it was like capture criminals.
00:51:30
bclawson
This is Caroline who does not know what CCT closed circuit closed circuit.
00:51:32
Caroline
It's probably like, it's probably like citizen maybe.
00:51:37
bclawson
Maybe it's maybe you can't get in it.
00:51:40
Caroline
What it is though is like what you're talking about. It's just all of the street cameras that are owned by the municipalities.
00:51:45
bclawson
It's not just that now, every home has a camera.
00:51:48
Caroline
But in addition, yeah, though we have they have readily ah available access to these other things. Business cameras, it's pretty rare anymore. We hear the business camera people say, oh, it's just up there for show. I think people really are switching to video everywhere. They've got their dash cams are on all the time. People are wearing cameras all the time. They're turning their cell phones on on their little necklaces all the time. So yeah, I mean, i as someone who hates my photo, I hate it. But at the same time as someone who loves a good truth, I love it.
00:52:19
bclawson
Well, here's the good truth. Uh, you know, she's got, you know, pay honest money for a while. She, she's wacko wacko. She's a different person in every state.
00:52:29
Caroline
Back and forth. Yeah.
00:52:32
bclawson
Her picture was snapped in the places that she went. Here's where she went. They knew exactly what she was doing. Casinos, hotels, banks, and ah She's looking for somebody who looks like her, who but she's also gambling, and so she's really in a pickle. so But they've got her on the run, and they've got her face on cameras. Police said there were actual similarities to the murder in Fort Myers Beach, as well as the murder of her husband in Minnesota.
00:53:13
bclawson
There's the gunshot wound to body mass.
00:53:17
Caroline
Yeah.
00:53:18
bclawson
There's the close gunshot wound that both victims suffered. She used a pillow to muffle the sound in both shootings. She covered both bodies up, him with a tarp, Pam with ah with a blanket, and then she stuck the pillows under the door. She did that with Pam's body as well.
00:53:43
Caroline
began with pain So she's a serial killer.
00:53:45
bclawson
So after
00:53:46
Caroline
She's become a serial killer. With a mark.
00:53:49
bclawson
She thinks like a serial killer.
00:53:51
Caroline
Yeah.
00:53:51
bclawson
I think that you have to get up to three to be a serial killer.
00:53:53
Caroline
Oh.
00:53:56
bclawson
And you know, serial killers have a cooling off period.
00:53:59
Caroline
Oh.
00:53:59
bclawson
This woman does not have a, kid she has a gambling off period.
00:54:03
Caroline
Yeah. That's true.
00:54:04
bclawson
she's she's not you know Anyway, after a month-long manhunt or granny hunt or whatever they were calling it, a restaurant employee in South Padre Island, Texas called 911 when he recognized Lois Reese. Remember her faces everywhere.
00:54:23
Caroline
Oh yeah.
00:54:24
bclawson
The killer grandma, she was on her way to Mexico. That's what everybody thinks. Law enforcement thinks that, I think that.
00:54:29
Caroline
Oh yeah. What'd you Yeah, absolutely.
00:54:32
bclawson
Do you think that, Caroline? I think you said said as much earlier.
00:54:35
Caroline
I did. That's the, that's the quintessential, what I think everyone in the last few decades of generations believes of when you talk about fleeing, you know, go on and take the money and run Steve Miller. Like they're headed down to O.L. Paso because they're going to Mexico. Paso's on the way.
00:54:52
bclawson
Right. Even though Mexico works very closely with United States officials to track down criminals, you know, ah they just don't have the infrastructure needed to find someone who wants to hide in Mexico.
00:55:10
Caroline
Plus there's still a lot of corruption, so with the right, just like in the United States, with the right amount of money, you can get any kind of justice you'd like.
00:55:15
bclawson
Well, yeah, but different type. I think you're talking about different type. So when Lois Reese 58 stood in, so she was 58 when she stood trial. When Lois Reese 58 stood in Kaysen, Minnesota courtroom on Tuesday ah to get specific, she admitted that she killed her husband David before going on the run. So she pled guilty. She eventually wound up in Florida where she befriended and then murdered a woman who looked like her, also that she could steal the victim's identity. Reese received life imprisonment for killing Pamela Hutchinson, who was only 59, who was just, you know, discovered dead inside a hotel in Fort Myers Beach.
00:56:05
bclawson
on April 6, 2018. So that draws draws a line under that. And now she's going to get extradited back to Minnesota to face prosecution on a first-degree murder charge of David Reese, to which she eventually pleaded guilty. She didn't want to at first, but she did.
00:56:25
Caroline
Oh.
00:56:26
bclawson
Reese received a life sentence without the possibility of parole. Before she was sentenced, Reese apologized to her husband's family and friends. The paper reports that she admitted that she should not have killed him and told them life without her husband was her true sentence.
00:56:48
Caroline
Hmm.
00:56:49
bclawson
Well, you know, what I have to say to that is, you know, eat my wax wings and eat worms and, you know,
00:56:49
Caroline
Hmm.
00:57:01
Caroline
Yeah, I mean, it's easy to.
00:57:01
bclawson
I don't know, we'll call it wax wings. Let the moths fly you to Haiti and back, I don't know.
00:57:06
Caroline
Yeah. It's easy to say once you're caught, so. Sorry. i
00:57:13
bclawson
Life without my husband is my true sentence. that's I don't know what her voice sounds like, but that just that's blood curdling or stomach churning or something.
00:57:18
Caroline
That's what that sounds like. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:57:26
bclawson
Lois Reese has never said, why she decided to start killing? Where did it come from, lady, for you to begin your rampage?
00:57:36
Caroline
I mean, it's difficult. Well, it's easier to see a crack addict or opioid addict, right? It's easier for us because of what we see have seen as a society through the opioid crisis, what that did to normal people and what they were willing to do to get their fix. And a lot of them were willing to rob, not a lot of them, I don't think, turned to murder. But this begs the question, can an addiction, particularly a gambling addiction, which in my mind, wrongfully, is different than a drug addiction? It's not.
00:58:06
Caroline
The addiction is a disease.
00:58:06
bclawson
No, it's not.
00:58:08
Caroline
It doesn't matter what your addiction is, it's a disease. But like, is is this a possibility of those types of addictive diseases that you could like, but she seems to have done it out of nowhere, right? I mean, she's got this beautiful family, like, whoa, it's a scary game.
00:58:24
bclawson
But you know what? People kill their spouse all the time just to be with this other person
00:58:31
Caroline
um Good point.
00:58:32
bclawson
Sometimes when that person has killed their spouse, I mean, you know, people will kill too.
00:58:37
Caroline
Yeah, it's a good point.
00:58:41
bclawson
I'm going to really overly distill it here and simplify it, even though I have a hard time comprehending it. People will do what whatever they have to do to get what they want.
00:58:55
Caroline
Yeah, yeah.
00:58:56
bclawson
If they get, if the thing that they want, has a grip on their mind and their critical thinking skills.
00:59:05
Caroline
Yeah. Yes.
00:59:08
bclawson
Their brain chemistry is no longer normal.
00:59:12
Caroline
Yeah.
00:59:13
bclawson
And I don't know if hers ever was given her background, but this certainly came out of nowhere that she would kill after 40 years of marriage and a good marriage.
00:59:15
Caroline
Right.
00:59:25
Caroline
yeah
00:59:25
bclawson
They're still living together. They have fights about money and gambling, but they're living together and he trusted her and she pulled a gun on him and killed him.
00:59:35
Caroline
Right.
00:59:37
bclawson
And his back was not turned. At least Pam didn't see what was coming.
00:59:41
Caroline
It's crazy.
00:59:44
bclawson
Anyway, she she never has told anybody why she decided to kill.
00:59:44
Caroline
Crazy.
00:59:51
bclawson
It's enough for me to believe that a person who would gamble away close to a million dollars, and it could be more, Counting all of the money she lost from her family's household from the businesses that her murdered husband started and you know worked into a highly successful family business and the legacy that her father left her Any person who would do all of that just to feel good and to feel like a winner at any cost will kill and will kill again and again and
01:00:27
bclawson
and again to get more money so that they can gamble again and again and again.
01:00:33
Caroline
Yeah.
01:00:34
bclawson
That's what I think.
01:00:37
bclawson
My heart will always feel so bad for David Reese and his children and for Pam Hutchinson and her friends and family. This family murder is like the others we follow, Caroline. There are no real answers to the question why. And by real, I mean reasonable.
01:00:56
Caroline
yeah
01:00:57
bclawson
There's just, you know, no. I don't believe she has any remorse either, other than for the fact that her plan to play the slots and use her gun to get whatever she wanted did not quite work out the way that she thought it was going to.
01:01:03
Caroline
Yeah, that's kind of not getting.
01:01:13
bclawson
And prison is where this lady belongs. And I'm glad that she was as young as she was because She's going to have another 20, 25 years, you know, where she doesn't get to make any decisions. She doesn't get darkness ever at night.
01:01:29
Caroline
Right.
01:01:30
bclawson
ah She doesn't stop smelling smells that can only be found in prison.
01:01:37
Caroline
Yeah.
01:01:37
bclawson
And the noise level in prison never abates. And, you know, she's going to be never another moment of privacy and on and on and on. I cannot rub that in her face enough for what she did to her husband and to Pam Hutchinson.
01:01:54
Caroline
It's
01:01:55
bclawson
And that's the end of our story today.
01:01:59
Caroline
sad.
01:02:00
bclawson
So listeners, I hope that this didn't disturb you as much as it did, Caroline, and and as much as it disturbed me. Today's episode is researched, written, and narrated by Bridget and Caroline, produced by Andy. Our research is solely based on public domain documents, including legal documents, articles, and books about our subject. Episodes are aired every other week. If you like us, please subscribe and give us a five star review, especially on Apple. It really helps. Tell your friends about us in person and by social media. All of these actions help new listeners find us, which is what we want. And we love our listeners. We want to thank you. We appreciate you.
01:02:52
bclawson
And one more thing, don't forget to live and let live. So bye bye, Caroline.
01:03:02
Caroline
Bye-bye.