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Episode 24: Za'Zell Preston & Caroline Grills
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Happy Monday and New Year!
This week we have a twofer for you. Lana starts us off with the heartbreaking story of Za'Zell Preston after that Ellie tells the oddly confusing story of Caroline Grills.
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Sources:
Man sentenced who killed wife, propped body in front of kids | AP News
Man Convicted After Killing Wife, Having Kids Open Christmas Gifts in Front of Body (people.com)
Who was Za'Zell Preston? Mom's body was cold when killer put it on couch, says daughter | MEAWW
Caroline Grills | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers
--- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/scared-but-curious/support
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Scared But Curious'
00:00:04
Speaker
Hey guys, I'm Lana. And I'm Ellie. And welcome to Scared But Curious.
Lana's Fitness Routine & Liquid IV Discussion
00:00:18
Speaker
Hey guys, as many of you know, I work out every day and I care a lot about fitness and what goes into my body. And one of my absolute must-haves is liquid IV. But the great thing about liquid IV is that it isn't just for working out, it's for everyday use.
00:00:33
Speaker
On recording days, we are both nonstop for hours. And so in the mornings, I like to take my liquid IV. So then throughout the day, I don't feel so rundown. With just one stick, you can hydrate two times faster than water alone. Plus get essential vitamins and three times the electrolytes of leading sports drinks. They have so many good flavors. My favorite is the strawberry and golden cherry.
00:00:57
Speaker
Ooh, that sounds really good. But I have to say my all-time favorite is watermelon and strawberry lemonade, but they have flavors for everyone. They really do, yeah. Like I said, one stick of liquid IV in just 16 ounces of water hydrates you two times faster than water alone. It also contains five essential vitamins
00:01:17
Speaker
B3, B5, B6, B12, and Vitamin C with three times the electrolytes of leading sports drinks and made with quality ingredients. It's non-GMO and free from gluten, dairy, and soy, which is so nice.
00:01:33
Speaker
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00:01:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's amazing. I'm so proud that Liquid IV has done that. Real people, real flavor, real hydrating. Get 20% off when you go to liquidiv.com and use code SBCP at checkout. That's 20% off anything you order when you shop better hydration today using promo code SBCP at liquidiv.com. Well, happy Monday.
00:02:22
Speaker
Happy Monday. How are you today? I'm good. Christmas is over. Thank goodness. Thank God.
Post-Christmas Reflections & Humor
00:02:33
Speaker
Last episode, we were like, yay, Christmas time. Now I'm like, thank God. Thank God Christmas is over. I feel like last episode, we were actually like shitting on Christmas a little bit. Oh yeah, we were shitting on Christmas about cookies.
00:02:47
Speaker
Because we were so... It was the cookies. It was the cookies I did it. Yeah, it was the fucking cookies. Which I actually saw them at QuickCheck the other day. Oh. And it took everything in my power to not send a photo of them because I was running late. I needed to get out. Or else I would have sent a photo. I was like, I need to leave. I'm sorry. It's so funny. Another time. Oh my god. Yeah. So how was your Christmas? Well, I was...
00:03:14
Speaker
fighting for my life, if I'm honest with you. I was very sick and not with many people or actually anyone. I wasn't with anyone. I was just fighting to survive. Welcome to our Chronic Illness podcast. Literally, we're going to switch focus. It's no longer true crime. It's now FML. We struggle together.
00:03:43
Speaker
Exactly. But no, my Christmas was good. I had my parents over. So that was good. Yes. Yeah. That's exciting. Just normal. Yeah, it was good. It was the first time they had actually come to my house for Christmas. So they had to sleep on my super uncomfortable couch. And we had we had a really good day. My mom made her creme brulee French toast for Christmas morning.
00:04:08
Speaker
it is like crack it is so good hey it is like caramelly and like the bottom is all like oh my gosh it's so good when my husband excuse me shout out to lori what the hell where's my cream brulee french toast what is this
00:04:26
Speaker
Oh gosh, it's so good. I feel gypped, man. My husband, she was asking, she's like, okay, what do you guys want for Christmas morning? I can either make like, she makes this good egg casserole thing that I love because I don't actually like sweet breakfast. And so she makes this egg casserole. She's like, okay, do you want me to make the egg casserole? Or should I make the creme brulee French? And she didn't even get to finish the creme brulee French toast. And my husband was like that, that one, that's what we're having.
00:04:58
Speaker
There we go. Fun fact about my husband, he will eat his weight in french toast. He was a happy camper. So no, Christmas was good. Also, side note, if my voice sounds scratchy, that's because I don't know if I'm getting sick or if I just slept with my mouth open.
00:05:17
Speaker
And I think I said that last time I was getting sick. So let's hope that I'm not getting sick. I think you're getting sick. I mean, knock on knockers and knock on wood. Knock on knockers. Have you never heard that? I've never heard that before. Knock on knockers.
00:05:36
Speaker
I always have knockers present, but I don't have wood always present. So I knock on knockers sometimes.
The Tragic Story of Zazelle Preston
00:05:45
Speaker
Okay, what are you going to be telling me today? What story are you going to fuck me up with? So today, I'm going to be telling you the story of Zazelle Preston. Okay.
00:05:58
Speaker
ZA apostrophe Z-E-L-L. Okay. I mean, this was a girl who was cut down in her prime, so let's just... Oh no. Yeah. So, Zazelle Dominique Preston was born the 5th of September in Santa Ana, California.
00:06:16
Speaker
Every time I hear Santa Ana, I think of Santa Ana. I know I didn't finish school, but that frickin says Santa Ana. Anyway, gets one sentence into the story. Zozell was born to Seidel and Larry Preston. She had a sister and two brothers, but her dad
00:06:44
Speaker
left when she was really young and wasn't really in the picture. And so she grew up living with her mom, Seidel, her aunt, her siblings, and her grandparents all in one house. And they were a very close knit family. They did everything together. They were just a really close family. Because I mean, when you have what, three generations living together. Yeah, you guys, everyone's in each other's everything. Exactly.
00:07:13
Speaker
And Zizelle was known by those who loved her as Zizi, which I thought was adorable. Like, oh Zizi, this is so cute. So I don't know a lot about her, her childhood growing up. But what I do know is that when she was 15, she started high school at Rancho Alameda High School in California. So during this time in high school,
00:07:36
Speaker
she became pregnant with her first daughter, Ziana. And by all accounts, she was a great mom. A couple years later, Zazelle would have another daughter, but I couldn't find her name at all. The middle daughter could not find out her name. So a little while later,
00:07:55
Speaker
she, Zazelle decided that she wanted a better life for her and her kids and she decided to become a full-time student at Cypress College and was focusing on becoming a domestic violence counselor. That's really, that's really good. Yeah. But I also just want to acknowledge the middle child thing. Yeah. Isn't that the whole thing about the middle child? It's so funny because we literally know the older kid's name and the youngest kid's name.
00:08:25
Speaker
And we don't know. We don't know the middle kids. I'm an only child. And even I'm like, wait, but isn't that kind of like the thing? Like they just kind of get ignored. That's so funny. But along with her everything, being a great mom, wanting to better her kid's life, and just trying to be the best mom possible, her family also said that she was an avid dancer. And she loved dancing. She loved anything dance.
00:08:54
Speaker
So we're going to fast forward a couple years later, and Zazelle meets a man named William Wallace. And by all accounts, they felt both of them felt hard for each other.
00:09:08
Speaker
And I couldn't find when they met, so I don't know if they met when she was in college. I don't know when in their lives they met. But from the beginning, it was rough. It just was not a good relationship, very toxic. And just like always,
00:09:30
Speaker
the abuse started slowly with emotional and controlling behavior. But eventually it did turn physical, very physical. But Zazelle, like most domestic violence victims, thought she could change him. And just the fact that she's going to school to be a domestic violence counselor, and
00:09:55
Speaker
she's in a DV situation, just goes to show you that you don't know what people are going through in their personal lives. I mean, it goes to show you can have all of the knowledge and all of the resources and wherewithal and still get manipulated and still because Exactly.
00:10:14
Speaker
You have to remember they go after people that are strong. They go after people that are pillars, not people that are weak, not people that are easy to manipulate. They go after those strong, independent people that really don't need them. Yes, exactly. And they make them feel like they do need them. It's just they go in with ulterior motives when you go in pure and that's how they get you. So we're going to fast forward a little while and
00:10:42
Speaker
William proposes to Zazelle. All of Zazelle's family is begging her not to go through with it. They're telling her that this is bad news, that just because you get married doesn't mean that it's going to fix anything, which if you take anything away from this episode, take that away of having a baby or getting married doesn't fix
00:11:05
Speaker
problems in a relationship. If anything, it makes it worse, because now you're stuck with that person. So, a lot more than you were. Yeah. Even though Zazelle's family would tell her like, this is not a good idea. This is not, you know, don't go through with this. He's already hurting you now. This is not going to fix anything. Zazelle wouldn't listen. And her and William got married. And of course, the abuse did not stop.
00:11:35
Speaker
because, you know, why would it? Now they're connected. William would go to jail for domestic violence multiple times. And a lot of the times afterwards, after she would, or he would go to jail, Zazelle would go to women's shelters and her family's house, and everyone told her to get away from him. She even had friends, again, that were counselors, were DV counselors and stuff like that. And there was one lady
00:12:04
Speaker
that said that she was a woman with all of the tools who was just manipulated into not using them. And so we're going to skip to 2008. And Wallace was convicted of battery against a cohabitant. He, are you ready for this? You ready to see how much he spent in prison? Oh, no, I don't think I am. I know your face right now.
00:12:35
Speaker
45 days in prison. Yeah. And was required to attend batter's treatment, a batter's treatment program. So did he get battered? Is that what that treatment was? You just beat the shit out of him until he doesn't do it again? This is my point. That one might work. I was going to say, we were talking about last episode with you know, you should get what you do. So I mean, if you beat the shit out of your partner, you should also get the shit beat out of you.
00:13:06
Speaker
right? There's always someone bigger and better. And then you're like, Oh, well, exactly. And everyone's like, well, two wrongs don't make a right. But sometimes it does. No, it makes us all feel better except the guy that did it in the first place. And if you would have just never done it, we'd all be fine. Exactly. Exactly. I don't see the problem. So soon after he got out and was required to attend this program, Zazelle got a restraining order against him.
00:13:36
Speaker
But on several occasions, he managed to convince her to forgive him. And Wallace was arrested at least two more times for violating the restraining order.
00:13:47
Speaker
And I I have very mixed feelings about restraining orders. Yeah. Because like, like, obviously, they're great, because it's like a piece of paper that says you legally cannot be close to me. So then something can be done if you do. But they don't do enough. No. You just walk up to him, smack him on the hand and go, No, point his face aggressively and be like bad. Don't do that. And that's about it.
00:14:16
Speaker
if, you know, a guy goes, well, it's fine. I'll just break the restraining order, kill this person. The person's already dead. What is the piece of paper doing? Nothing. It's a piece of paper. I mean, also what breaking the restraining order gives them how many days in jail?
00:14:30
Speaker
Yeah, I don't actually know. So, I mean, I'm sure it actually probably doesn't give you as much as we think it should. Mm hmm. Yeah. Because I'm sure they just think, Oh, I just broke the restraining order. It's whatever. Because it's nothing compared to what I'm about to do to her. Exactly. Because I mean, these people don't think like normal people they there's not much protection.
00:14:57
Speaker
No, not at all, especially in DV cases. Oh, absolutely not.
00:15:02
Speaker
So like I said, Wallace would get arrested at least two times for violating the restraining order. And each time Zazelle would visit him in jail since she was pregnant with his kid.
Christmas Eve Tragedy & Aftermath
00:15:14
Speaker
But one of the times she had had enough and Zazelle moved out of the family house and ran. But when William got out again, she let him move back in with her because he had told her
00:15:28
Speaker
that he had found God and that he was a changed person. This was in summer 2011 that he told her that he had found God.
00:15:38
Speaker
When people say that they found God, it's often people in jail, which I mean, I guess what else are you going to do in there? But I'd like to be that friendly reminder that Son of Sam also was working with God, apparently. So we just, you know, maybe not. I shouldn't be an indicator.
00:16:03
Speaker
So we're going to fast forward to the week of Christmas, 2011. Things had gotten really, really bad between William and Zazelle. But Zazelle, as always, was trying to make it a good Christmas for her kids. You know, she did everything for her kids because she was a great mom. And on Christmas Eve, William and Zazelle went to a Christmas party. They were just having drinks and having fun.
00:16:29
Speaker
and just having a night out without the kids. And from what I saw, I think that it was in the same apartment complex. So they weren't actually that far away from home. So I think the kids were home alone, but at this point, one of them is nine. I think it was like nine, four, and a couple weeks. She had just had her baby, that baby that is Williams. She had just had her baby.
00:16:56
Speaker
Um, maybe it's just me, but I think you need to be older than nine to watch a newborn. Just saying. It was just her and the four year old because it was a nine year old and a four year old. That makes a little bit more sense because you're old enough, but yeah. Yeah. It's just me though. I don't know. Maybe this is like a super with it all nine year old, but no, I barely like, I don't know. They're frontal lobe. I don't know if they're, they can maybe take care of themselves and that's about it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:27
Speaker
But also, who knows? This kid also has had to deal with their mom going through a really bad relationship. They've probably had to pick up some pieces, yeah.
00:17:39
Speaker
So, you know, they were in the same apartment complex. And while the couple was heading home from the Christmas party, neighbors said that they could hear a fight happening between William and Zazelle. Later, William would say that they got into a fight. So he was admitting to it and he, quote, tossed her around a little bit. And when they got into the house, the fight continued and William would attack Zazelle.
00:18:07
Speaker
for the last time. And there isn't really a clear picture of what happened during the fight. He never really gave up a clear story. So we really only know. So we only really know what they found through the autopsy and stuff like that. But what we do know about that night is that the fight got even more physical. Investigators would let her say that there was blood found around the home
00:18:37
Speaker
and holes punched in the walls.
00:18:39
Speaker
and doors off of their hinges. Williams. This guy's a monster. Yeah. So the fighting got so bad that William beat Zazelle and she fell unconscious. And I honestly don't know if this is when she died or if she died of her injuries later that night, but, and nobody really knows, but 39 year old William Wallace would beat Zazelle Preston to death on Christmas Eve or early Christmas day.
00:19:08
Speaker
But you know, he had kids and it's Christmas. So on early Christmas morning, William grabs Zazelle's lifeless body and put her on the couch. He also grabbed sunglasses and put them on her and pretended she was still alive while the kids opened their presents. Bruh.
00:19:32
Speaker
How do you think that's a good approach? He would tell the kids, and this is a quote, and this makes me furious, quote, Bobby ruined Christmas. She got drunk and ruined Christmas.
00:19:49
Speaker
Oh, my god. Um, where is he? Where is he? I'm finding him. This piece of shit. Fuck, are you gonna murder a woman and then have the audacity to talk shit about her to ruin Christmas? Yeah.
00:20:12
Speaker
What the fuck? You ruined their lives of the rest of the- No. You ruined their lives. Shut the fuck up. Oh my god. I hate him. Okay. Sorry. Okay.
00:20:21
Speaker
It wasn't until after the kids had opened their presents, which was around 9.30 AM, which I'm like, dang, that's actually early. And then I realized they're young kids. Of course they woke up at like five or, you know, 5.30 or six to open presents. So around 9.30 AM, William finally called 911, only saying that Zazelle needed medical attention. Paramedics found Zazelle slumped over the couch unresponsive.
00:20:51
Speaker
They rushed her to the hospital, but Zazelle was pronounced dead on a rifle. And apparently while William was with the paramedics, he called, I've seen it reported two different ways. He had either called a friend or a cousin. And he told this person that he was going to quote, going to be going to the penitentiary. So he knew, he knew she was dead. If you're already saying, damn, I'm going to jail.
00:21:20
Speaker
Oh god. You know, she's dead. Yeah. Yeah. And I just did a quick Google search to see this. And wow, I hope he rots in jail. Oh, he would also tell relatives that it was self defense.
00:21:36
Speaker
and that Zazelle was attacking and biting him. Wallace claimed that Zazelle died after falling and hitting her head. But the hardship for these kids didn't end there. Zazelle's mom and sister fought for custody of the kids, which tore the family apart even further. The children ended up going to Zazelle's mom. And Seidel would later say how hard the kids had it during that time.
00:22:06
Speaker
they would be scared to do anything wrong. They would wake up with night terrors. And they would also say how much they miss their mom because remember, they're nine, four, and like a couple weeks old, which makes it so sad for these kids like for the littlest kid because the littlest kid doesn't want to even remember his mom. He stole a mother. Yeah, he stole a childhood.
00:22:29
Speaker
three three childhoods. Yeah, it's well and then not only are you a piece of shit that beats your partner. Um, but you also took you also took this mom from her kids and she was a great mom. She was literally doing something to make her life better. And I guarantee those children. Those kids needed her a lot more than you do. I mean, he didn't deserve her. God, I know.
00:22:54
Speaker
When the trial finally happened 10 years later, it was June, 2021. Remember this happened in December, 2011. So it kept getting postponed and postponed until June, 2021. And during the trial, William's lawyer claimed that Zazelle had fallen and landed on a glass coffee table and shattered it. And that's how she died. How? How do you, I've fallen.
00:23:24
Speaker
I'm just gonna, I'm adding myself. I'm very clumsy and I've fallen on the glass coffee table. And I mean, I guess if you're like drunk or something like he was claiming she was, I guess sure. Or like if you hit your head on like a corner of it or something, but then how was there blood everywhere and holes in the walls and doors off their hinges?
00:23:48
Speaker
Exactly. And also during the trial, Zazelle's daughter, who was now 18, could still remember feeling her mom's cold body on Christmas Day. Because I mean, if you think about it, you you know, you're a little kid, you unwrap this present, you're like, Mom, look what I got. Isn't this so cool? And you're like trying to show her what you got.
00:24:09
Speaker
I hate how much of like a reaction that's getting from me right now because I do know exactly what that feels like. Yes. And you don't forget it. You really will hold on to that for the rest of your life. And those kids shouldn't have. Especially that young. Exactly. It's one thing when
00:24:29
Speaker
your parents' bodies give out on them. But it's a whole other thing when someone took that person from you. They took your mother. My heart is so sad. Yeah. Attorney Todd Spitzer said in a statement,
00:24:44
Speaker
quote, that heartbreak is only exacerbated by the fact that her children witnessed much of the violence, and they were forced to celebrate Christmas in the presence of their dead mother. That's not that's not a Christmas memory any child should be forced to have. Absolutely. Like,
00:25:03
Speaker
I have a last Christmas memory with my mother. And it is a normal Christmas memory. And this is the memory that oh my god, this is awful. And knowing later on that your mom was dead the whole time because you're son of a bitch stepdad.
00:25:21
Speaker
is a piece of shit. I just want to hug them. I don't know what to do. I just want to hug these kids and protect them. Yeah.
William's Conviction and Sentence
00:25:30
Speaker
William Wallace was convicted of murder and given 15 years. That's it? I was waiting for there to be more numbers. Just 15. Just 15. But he was credited with time served for nine of those years.
00:25:45
Speaker
because how long the trial was postponed for. So he will be out of prison by 2026. He murdered a woman. He beat her to death. He, holy, he beat a mother with her children present, with the wherewithal to know, to make her look still alive because he knew what he'd, oh my God, what the fuck?
00:26:12
Speaker
How do you, so he will be out in two years. Why? We don't need him out. I am feeling like this is heavily, heavily influenced by the fact that this was not a white woman. Yep. Yeah. This makes me so angry right now. Our society is extremely fucked, which it is. And then why would they look at
00:26:38
Speaker
a black man doing this to a black woman as anything of importance. Yep. It just, it really just puts it in, especially this story, just really puts it in perspective of how much they don't care. You know, like he got 15 years. That means that kid, the kid that his kid will only be like 16 by the time he gets out. It's really not that much time. That's a blink of an eye.
00:27:08
Speaker
He was in jail while they were waiting for trial, right? Yeah. So he at least had that time, too. Yeah. Still just fucking sucks. And I hate when they say, oh, this wife beater did great in jail. He didn't beat any wives. Oh, shit. He's fucking crazy. What?
00:27:33
Speaker
They beat what? It's like when they have like pedophiles or like racist and shit. Oh, he did great. He didn't rape a single woman. Yeah, no shit. There's no women. There's no kids. There's nothing there. They didn't rape any kids in prison. Wow. I hope not. Yeah. That is the case of Zazelle Preston. My heart is so sad for those kids. Like that's just not fair. Yeah.
00:28:02
Speaker
And yeah, just the fact that she was literally trying to make her life better. And it was seriously, she went to school to be a domestic violence counselor and then died by domestic violence. It's just so sad. I don't want to hear any comments of, of she deserved it or well, she should have got out when she could. Yeah, thank you. That's what I was looking for. Yeah, no victim. We're not going to do that because you have no idea.
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah. How freaking manipulated you can be in those situations when you have a pure heart. Yeah, exactly. And she did. And he does not. And life is extremely fragile, man. Yeah. You have to keep those around you that want to have you live a full, long life. Yes. It's full of happiness. And it makes my heart sad that she didn't get that.
00:29:00
Speaker
Oh, well, yeah, thanks for that. Yeah, sorry. All right. Yeah. So now on to your story. After this ad break. Yeah.
00:29:27
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:30:57
Speaker
Now that we just finished your story, we're gonna go into mine now, and Stella doesn't want to hear my story apparently, she's out of here.
00:31:04
Speaker
Okay. She's like, I was Nepali, but now I'm not. Go away. Yeah, I don't want to do this anymore. It's not comfy. And this story was really confusing.
Caroline Grills: The Sweet Maternal Poisoner
00:31:14
Speaker
I had to ask multiple people on how the fuck the story goes. Because each of the stories and the sources that you read, they have different numbers. And I don't know if they like were at different times because it was a long time ago. Yeah. And
00:31:35
Speaker
I'm gonna do my best. Okay. Stella is back. Okay. You know how much you've destroyed our recording day today, Stella? Can you please just lay down? Okay. And this case is actually an Australian case. Oh, have we been to Australia yet? So we're going. I don't think so. I don't think so either.
00:31:58
Speaker
Maybe? I don't want to commit because I actually don't remember. I've done so much research on so many things. I don't know what's actually recorded. Exactly. I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm like, I know we wanted to. So do you know anything about Caroline Grills? I actually don't. Like the name doesn't sound familiar. Like the the the case might be familiar, but I don't think I've ever heard her name.
00:32:25
Speaker
Well, you're in luck, because I am going to tell you what it is. So this is a very interesting case, as I was saying, because there's a lot of names that are the same. So I'm going to do my best. I really am, and try to keep up with me. And if things stop making sense, we'll have to figure this out together.
00:32:47
Speaker
Caroline Grills was born Caroline Mickelson in 1890 in Balmain. It still doesn't sound right coming out of my mouth. New South. Are you kidding me? Sorry. New South Wales, Australia. She grew up as a daughter of a laborer named George Mickelson and Mary Priere. Ooh, probably should have asked about this one. I'm sorry.
00:33:17
Speaker
Caroline would marry a laborer herself on April 22nd of 1908. Her husband was named Richard William Grylls. So now we're finally Caroline Grylls. Richard and Caroline went on to have five sons and one daughter. Sadly, two of their sons passed away. One of the two died due to typhoid they contracted while working as a lifeguard on the Maruba Marubra
00:33:45
Speaker
Beach. Richard got into real estate, and he was doing really well for the family. Caroline's father passed away in 1948, and part of her inheritance was his home, and the family moved into it, which was located in Gladsville. Not 100% sure where Gladsville is. It's for Australian listeners.
00:34:09
Speaker
How much you want to bet they're even you know, where's Glad's Villa? Yeah Yeah, oh I don't know it when you say it American and I'm yeah Her family knew Caroline as Auntie Carrie and described her as a short dumpy woman Which I swear to God if my family described me as a dumpy woman I Would be so mad excuse you
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah, like this better have been after the fact and you'll understand once I get through this story eventually You'd imagine like oh, well, it makes sense that she did stuff because she was always a dumpy woman What what does that even mean?
00:35:03
Speaker
Don't be that doesn't make sense. We are explain seriously someone in Australia Explain what dumpy means if you're gonna describe I'm gonna oh I can't go out with that girl. She's too dumpy for me. What does that mean?
00:35:19
Speaker
I hate when they're too dumpy. Well, they do describe her further than just dumpy though. She wore thick rimmed glasses to add to the whole aesthetic that she's got going on here. And she frequently visited her in-laws and friends and would make tea, cakes, biscuits, you know, the sweet, caring, maternal woman that does cute things for their loved ones. Is it me?
00:35:44
Speaker
Am I? I have thick rimmed glasses, I make tea and cakes and cookies. I mean, I wouldn't call you dumpy, but you do have a dump truck on dude, like you do.
00:36:04
Speaker
Well, while I continue here, go do a quick Google search of what Caroline Grills looks like, and it made explain. Sorry, that was my coffee cup. She got really excited about Googling this picture. She took down her coffee glass really aggressively. Take in this adorable maternal woman for a second. And she continued living for quite a few years. She's me. With nothing going awry.
00:36:31
Speaker
she's i mean you're only like what 40 years younger but yeah it's me oh my god it's you have i caroline grilled well nothing went awry
00:36:48
Speaker
Stop smiling like her. It's creepy. We're gonna have to post that photo. We have to post a selfie looking like her, because you just did that. And you nailed it, just so you know. I'm so mad. Also, don't take my tea and cakes and pies away, okay? Okay, if anyone is going to take away your cakes and pies and shit, it's gonna be Leonardo, Chi, and truly. That, she's taking that shit away from you.
00:37:15
Speaker
not this girl oh my god oh my god i forgot about her and i make soap hello hello as long as they're not your victims um crazy oh my god okay anyway okay she's a sweet woman making sweets that are not made of other people like these are good they're safe sweets
00:37:45
Speaker
Exactly. Because everyone, you know, loved Aunt Carrie, right? She's great. Yeah. Well, May 11th of 1953, this maternal figure got arrested and charged with attempted murder.
00:37:59
Speaker
Wait, what? Exactly. That's what everyone else said. They took away her pies. They did because well, she did it to herself, you know why? Because she has a number of victims, which I'll get into them a little bit later down because this is that's the confusing part.
Caroline's Poisonous Acts & Conviction
00:38:14
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. All of her victims, though, were poisoned with thallium. Oh, and thallium is actually commonly found in rat bait. So it's a
00:38:24
Speaker
Oh, well, okay. So they were not good. No, no, they were for a good period of time. But then they stopped being good. Oh, she decided to add an extra ingredient. Oh, Caroline do several symptoms. Right? Don't ruin between Leonardo and Caroline man. We're never gonna eat sweets ever. Oh my god, I'm gonna lose so much weight. That's gonna be perfect.
00:38:52
Speaker
bread is my weakness bread and sugar oh forget about it okay anyway there are several symptoms of thallium poisoning there's hair loss nervous disorders progressive blindness loss of speech and eventual death which oh that's a lot
00:39:07
Speaker
That's a lot of bad things. In the sense of like, it's not just, you hear of like arsenic poisoning. Yeah, like arsenic poisoning and it's like, yeah, it sucks. But it's, it's like the flu. This is like full on. Yeah.
00:39:23
Speaker
Like you lose loss of speech nervous disorders like what do you what are you yeah about hair loss is the least of your problems? The rest is going on here exactly and her victims actually experienced all of the symptoms
00:39:39
Speaker
Oh, good. Well, I guess, except two, I think. Again, this will make sense later. Now, OK, who exactly are the victims of these crimes? Well, this is OK. Everybody get out a pen and paper. OK, we're going to draw this out together. No, she's getting out of paper. Oh, oh, she's actually doing it. OK, she's going to do it for you guys. Confusing. Yes. OK, Vic.
00:40:05
Speaker
So she attempted to murder Christine Downey and John Downey. Okay, so those are the attempts. And she didn't succeed with any of those, but she did manage to kill the mother of Christine and John. Okay. And her name is Evelyn Lundberg. Mom. Evelyn Lundberg, yeah.
00:40:27
Speaker
I feel like I'm already starting to get the like red thread thing going on. Right? Yeah, because it's like, okay, she tried these, but she got the mom. All right. Now keep up with me. There's another Christine. Okay, and it took me a while to figure out if this was the same Christine or a different Christine. I ended up saying it was a different one. Okay, so Christine's last name was Mickelson, because she was the stepmother of Caroline Grills.
00:40:54
Speaker
Okay. What's Christine? And she killed her? Yes. Okay. So killed. Okay. All right. Now Caroline also poisoned her sister-in-law, Mary Ann Mickelson. Okay. Yes. Did she kill her? No, don't worry. Yes. Okay. The rest of these people are all taken out.
00:41:12
Speaker
Oh, successfully. Yes. Okay, so she only attempted attempted to. Okay, what's the sister's name? They just had strong enough bodies, I guess. Yeah. This the sister in law that is Marianne Mickelson. Okay. And as I said, there's more so don't worry. There's also a Angelina Thomas. And she's just a family friend. There's no actual like relation relation to this, this one.
00:41:37
Speaker
She literally just killing everyone. Yep. And there's also another John to get things more confusing. Jesus.
00:41:43
Speaker
um a john lundberg which wait there was another lundberg no that's the thing though lundberg was evelyn's last name and that that the parent of john downey what the fuck so was was there a miscommunication with like someone writing down names and they said john downey but downey's actually christine's married name and john's name or or is lundberg evelyn's married name and there's just another john and john's from lundberg not downey
00:42:13
Speaker
Weird. What? See, I'm not, I'm not, it's confusing, right? Oh, and John Lundberg is related by marriage. So maybe John Lundberg is the husband to Evelyn? That's what I'm thinking. I have no idea. I don't know, they didn't tell me.
00:42:38
Speaker
So there's two Johns and two Christines. Okay. Both seem to be brother and sister maybe. I don't know. They're relatives. Okay. Yeah. Well, either way, if it's not, if it is the same John, then she only killed four people. Okay. But if it is a different John and there's another John, then she killed five people. Dang. With two attempts.
00:43:01
Speaker
all with Thallium. Geez. Geez. It's crazy. So there's a... Yeah, so like a quick recap. The ones that she almost killed, the attempted Christine and John Downey didn't happen. But she did happen to kill Mama-in-law, which is Evelyn Lundberg. Okay. Christine Mickelson and John Lundberg, which were either siblings or not. I don't. Yeah.
00:43:30
Speaker
I think they were siblings, maybe? I don't know. Guys, stop naming your kids the same names, okay? Literally. It's confusing. So seriously, this wonderful older woman was trying to take them all out. Like why?
00:43:48
Speaker
Why are you doing this? Why are you trying to kill everyone? Some people speculated that it was inheritance and money, but I don't think it was actually ever verified. At her trial in the central criminal court, girls professed her innocence, claiming that police had pressured her relatives to convict her and that she helped to live, not kill.
00:44:16
Speaker
However, her behavior in court, marked by outbursts of laughter, really reinforced the idea that she was a malevolent killer. It was not just... I mean... Why are you laughing? You just took out a good chunk of your family, girl. Six people, yeah.
00:44:35
Speaker
Maybe. Stupid? I don't know. Yeah. On October 15th of 1953, she was found guilty of attempted murder and sentenced to death. She did appeal, and her appeal was dismissed by the court of criminal appeal in April of 1954. But her sentence was commuted to life imprisonment instead of death. Okay.
00:44:58
Speaker
She was admitted to the state reformatory for women and she spent the next six and a half years there. But she ended up being rushed to Prince Henry Hospital where girls actually died from peritonitis, peritonitis, peritonitis. There we go. I just had to say it a couple of times because it's all about rhythm with these freaking words. Right.
00:45:20
Speaker
And it is a inflammation of the peritoneum, which is typically caused by a bacterial infection, either via the blood or a rupture of an abdominal organ. On the 6th of October, 1960, she was cremated with Angelican rites, which I had to look that up. It's apparently a English rite with her burial. I didn't get too far into it. I'm not going to lie. Her husband,
00:45:48
Speaker
daughter and three of her sons survived her, and Aunt Thally, as she was popularly known, remains a mystery really. The undercurrents of envy, anger, or revenge that pushed her to kill so many of her family is honestly a guess from anyone. We have no confirmation of why she ever did any of this.
00:46:12
Speaker
That's so weird. And I think the most disturbing part of this case is how she was a matron for so long and she was a figure head in her family who did everything that your favorite aunt does and gives you tea and cakes and has a good time with you. You'd never think that it's possible that her cake may be your last cake ever. They're like, man, this cake is to die for. And she's like,
00:46:40
Speaker
That's what she says. That's what she says. Oh no. I think my neighbor closed their door. I think that's just what happened. How dare you. Goodness gracious. Well, that was my story of Caroline Grills. That was a lot. I can see how it could be confusing.
00:46:55
Speaker
Yeah, it took me way too long. I actually don't even want to talk about how long it took me to finish this story because of the fucking names. But if you got something wrong, please correct me lightly. I spent a lot of time on this one. It was hard, guys. We've also been sick, so... I know, I've been really sick. I'm doing my best.
00:47:17
Speaker
I had to move again. My mother-in-law always says, say what you mean, but say it nicely. Exactly. You can still say what you need, knock someone down a couple of pegs, and still be respectful. Exactly. If we need to correct ourselves, say what you mean, but say it nicely, don't be a bitch. Don't be a bitch, because we won't listen. True.
00:47:45
Speaker
Well, we might listen. It'll just be real. We'll make, we'll cry. Don't make us cry. We'll cry. That's so mean. There's just no, don't be mean, I'll cry. I'm very sensitive. Now there's only one last more thing to say. Now there's only one last thing to say. No, that one. We really do need to say it. We need to stop recording. We need to stop. Okay, SVC out because we're fucking struggling.
00:48:21
Speaker
All right. Thank you so much for listening. And remember to follow us on Instagram at Scared But Curious Pod. And we have a Twitter. Follow us at Scared Curious on Twitter X and join our Scared But Curious Facebook group. And if you're listening on Spotify, please rate us. Five stars, please. And if there are any stories or cases you would love to hear us cover or anything you don't hear enough about, please don't hesitate. Email us at Scared But Curious Pod at gmail.com.