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Writer/director Tin Pang: directing process, AD takeaways and pitching advice
78 Plays8 days ago
Writer/director Tin Pang joins the podcast to talks about drawing from his own life for his projects, takeaways from taking his series Sell-Out to market, key learnings from directors’ attachments on A Place to Call Home and Home and Away, breaking down what a 1st, 2nd and 3rd assistant director (or AD) does, and how his work in those roles – and others – has set him up to be the director he is today.
Tin’s short films The Pale Moonlight and Mother, Child screened at festivals across the globe, including MIFF, Flickerfest, St Kilda, World-Fest Houston, HollyShorts and Fantasia. He was selected to be a part of MIFF’s Accelerator Lab as well as the Equity Foundation’s Screen Diversity Showcase, which resulted in the short film, Radical Honesty. Tin has also worked as an assistant director on series including Last King Of The Cross, The Artful Dodger, Erotic Stories, He Had It Coming and upcoming features Street Fighter and Spaceballs 2.
There’s also a call-out in the episode for donations for the short film LITTLE LIME, the writing/directing debut of host Caris Bizzaca. Any support is much appreciated! https://artists.australianculturalfund.org.au/s/project/a2EMn00000Yya6fMAB/short-film-little-lime
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Breaking Screen' and Host Karis Buzaka
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to Breaking Screen, a podcast about the Australian screen industry and the creative people within it. I'm your host, Caris Bizzaca I'm recording this podcast from the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, where I'm very grateful to be a visitor and be able to work on these lands. Always was, always will be.
Karis's Filmmaking Journey and 'Little Lime'
00:00:21
Speaker
Before we get to today's episode, a little announcement from me. I will be directing a short film I've written called Little Lime later this year, which will be my first credit after more than 15 years of writing about the Australian screen industry. We've launched a crowdfunding campaign through the Australian Cultural Fund that will run throughout June and would appreciate any support. I'll drop a link in the show notes and I will, of course, try and weave this experience into future pod episodes as well so if it's of interest.
Guest Feature: Tin Pang's Creative Insights
00:00:57
Speaker
Now to today's episode, which features Tin Pang, a writer-director fresh off of pitching his television series Sell Out at Screen Forever. Tin's short films, The Pale Moonlight and Mother Child, screened at festivals across the globe, including MIFF Flickrfest, St Kilda, Worldfest Houston, Holly Shorts and Fantasia.
00:01:18
Speaker
He was selected to be a part of MIFF's Accelerator Lab, as well as the Equity Foundation Screen Diversity Showcase, which resulted in the short film Radical Honesty. Tin has also worked as an assistant director on series including Last King of the Cross, the Artful Dodger, erotic stories he had it coming, and upcoming features Street Fighter and Spaceballs 2.
00:01:41
Speaker
Throughout the episode, Tin talks about drawing from his own life for his projects, his takeaways from recently taking his series to market, learnings from director's attachments on A Place to Call Home and Home and Away, breaking down what a first, second, and third assistant director or AD does, and how his work in those roles <unk> and others has set him up to be the director he is today.
00:02:06
Speaker
Here's that chat.
00:02:09
Speaker
ah We always start this podcast the same way, talking about inciting incidents. Can you tell me what the inciting incident of your career has been? It would Batman 1989.
00:02:21
Speaker
Oh. batman nine ten eighty nine oh um And i would have been, oh, that come out like 89 there would have been four I think by the time I really actually watched it for the first time I had a VHS and my mum would probably be like the influence in my screen film you know storytelling life because she was the one that really introduced me to so many different movies but I'd say the first movie that was really like the one that had a lot of influence on me was Batman 1989 because I put that VHS tape into the video player and the score starts because, of course, that's the you know opening credits.
00:03:00
Speaker
And that's probably a seminal moment in my life when I realised I loved movie scores. I loved soundtracks, particularly themes, strong themes like the Elfman theme for Batman.
00:03:14
Speaker
And I was also learning to play piano at the time. And i sucked at sight reading. Absolutely. I still suck at sight reading. I cannot read music to save my life, but I have a really good ear.
00:03:27
Speaker
And so I listened to that probably twice, the theme. Then I just started playing it on the piano. And then literally every waking moment I would have, I'll just rewind it to the start of the opening credits and I'll play piano along with the orchestral, like, you know, fanfare of the Batman theme. Amazing.
00:03:44
Speaker
I got really, really good at it. And then I'm like, I really want to compose music for films. So that's probably what got me started, you know, watching different like John Williams music and in Star Wars. and And then of course that expanded out with all of his other amazing films that he's done over the years.
00:04:03
Speaker
And it wasn't until probably high school where I realised, oh, no, it's not just the music that I really, really like. It's the it's the stories themselves and and, you know, acting and and the process of putting a movie together. That's what really, really kind of sparked me. But I'd say that, yeah, the inciting incident for me was actually playing along with the piano to Danny Elfman's Batman theme.
00:04:26
Speaker
That's so cool. I love that. um A little unexpected actually from the composer um angle, but that's super interesting.
From Production Assistant to Director: Tin's Industry Path
00:04:36
Speaker
And i suppose then what was your first job in the screen industry?
00:04:42
Speaker
Outside of film school, it was actually as a production assistant on Smallville. Because I, yeah, so film school. Not composing. Not composing. But I still do think that there's a part of me that thinks this whole writing, directing, producing lark is is all just a ah very, very long ploy to get to composing one day. Maybe when I'm eight, I'll finally compose at school.
00:05:07
Speaker
um No, my first job was actually a production assistant on Smallville. So I had graduated film school around 2006. And I worked for about a year and a half to save up to then travel overseas and, you know, help from parents as well, of course. But I ended up studying at USC.
00:05:24
Speaker
I got accepted into, which I don't think they do anymore, a USC universal intensive program. So you get accepted into this thing and over eight or nine weeks you come out with three short films and this like you do these masterclasses every week at the studios. You get to work on the back lot. You get to shoot 16mm film, which is like crazy because nobody teaches you that anymore.
00:05:48
Speaker
Lost art. And then I, it was around 2008 when I was finishing Is UFC... American? Yeah, University of Southern California. so Yeah, wow. um I mean, I grew up in public housing. I couldn't afford the proper degree, so i went for the intensive course instead. ah But it was great. I'm glad I did it because I came out of it and I thought, well, that's it. I'm going to run Hollywood. And then the global financial crisis happened and they're like, we're not hiring Americans. What makes you think we're going to hire Australians?
00:06:21
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, God, what do I do? and I had some family up in Canada at the time so it was easy for me to get a visa a two-year working visa working holiday visa to go up and and I started working at Starbucks and as I was doing that i had a friend from another friend from film film school back on the Gold Coast different film school and he was living in Vancouver and he's like do you want to come and first AD my short film I'm like yeah sure And one of the cast members, this is going to get wild and controversial. The cast member was Alison Mack, who played Chloe on Smallville.
00:07:00
Speaker
And she's like, I really like your vibe because I think for some reason it was raining and her socks got wet. So I always pack an extra pack of socks in my bag as a good AD should.
00:07:10
Speaker
And I said, here's some socks, here's some fresh socks. And she was so over the moon. and And she's like, oh, you know, you're looking for work. I'm like, yep. I am She's like, give me your CV and I'll hand it into production at Smallville.
00:07:22
Speaker
Maybe we can get your job there. And lo and behold, a week later, the locations department called me and said, hey, would you like to come in to do a day as a PA? And I'm like, yes, I absolutely would. you know And that's how I really got started. i I trained to be a PA. I started to get experiences in AD on that.
00:07:41
Speaker
What's interesting in Canada is that I'd say PAs are less production focused or run like in Australia, but they're specifically hired by the locations department. So it's a very utilitarian job. You're not just calling rolling cut on set and assisting other bits and pieces. You're also doing security. You're also doing lockdowns. You're also doing utilitarian stuff like unplugging toilets, cleaning random. It's a very, very, it's a very wholesome and humbling way to get your head around how a film set works. And was really quite fundamental, I think, for me as the way that I see myself on any set in any position, I think, to this day.
00:08:24
Speaker
But the funny story about Alison Mack is, of course, she then ended up being the second in command of the NXIVM sex cult. Read up about it. Crazy stuff. And she was ah arrested and went to prison. And I think she's now released and she's reformed. And I wish her well.
00:08:41
Speaker
okay And thank you, Ali, for giving me my first job in the film industry. Your big break. Wild. Well, okay, I do want to get into some of your other roles in the screen industry, but I also just want to backtrack a little bit because i heard that you also previously worked in advertising.
00:09:05
Speaker
Yes. Was that before screen? If so, like what prompted the move then to screen? It was after, so, back, so that was around 2008 2010. I did my two seasons in Smallville as a PA and I left Vancouver and came back to Australia and, um, cause I grew up on the Gold Coast and there wasn't as much going on at the time. And, you know, i wasn't really, I wasn't really clicky with a lot of the crews there.
00:09:33
Speaker
So I had some friends from film school from my Brisbane days at QCA who are now living in Sydney and they're studying after. I'm like, I'll move down to Sydney. And then I started working in the screen industry. Probably i did about a year in post-production as an avid assistant, avid engineer in reality TV. That then shifted to production assistant work and director's assistant work in kids TV, in live multicam kids TV, which was crazy.
00:10:02
Speaker
That then led to a two year tangent in animation at Flying Bark, where I did a lot of development and I was voice directing and I was doing a little bit of writing as well, which was incredible.
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah. I saw that you had a couple of roles doing voices on some animation. so is that the Flying Bark years? Yes. so That was the Flying Bark years and I have a secret past life as ah as a voice actor.
00:10:28
Speaker
which I also love as well. Finishing up on that, I then shifted to freelance work in production in advertising. So I really always wanted to, my end game was live action no matter what, you know, as much as I do did love animation, I still do. But um It was hard for me to get into the drama circle at the time in Sydney and I still have an agent to this day. it's like a technical agent, technical crewing agent. And they were calling me up and asking, would you like to be a production coordinator production manager on TV ads? And it was great because it was, you know, they're short and sharp. And and I started working in that area.
00:11:08
Speaker
But it was around about 2015 where my mum actually ended up having two strokes. um She was still living on the Gold Coast. So because I was freelance, I dropped everything in Sydney, um went up to the Gold Coast, looked after her.
00:11:22
Speaker
And then I moved her down to Sydney because she's a single mom and then i'm I'm an only child. So it's with the two of us in Australia. And it was great because that year or that first two years where she was living with me, working in ads, it was really a blessing because, you know, it was, again, it wasn't full-time work, but they paid really well. There were interesting ads. And I really did consider at the time, maybe, oh, maybe one day I'll direct ads because it's an interesting space.
00:11:51
Speaker
A lot of my work ended up being less production company based for the ads that are being made, but more in-house at agencies. And they'll have like their their content creation team in-house.
00:12:03
Speaker
It's almost like cutting out the middle person with the production company. So it's direct to client from the agency. And they were shooting smaller content pieces, still ads. And that was really interesting because they'd have a director in house and i'll be like a production manager in house. They'd have a producer in house and you'd be a very, very small, robust and nimble team.
00:12:22
Speaker
But you'd see some really wild stuff, you know, internally within the agency. Lots of tanties, lots of egos. And because you're really direct to client, you know, there's no buffer with the agency. You get some wild, wild, crazy demands. So yeah, it was really, really interesting.
Personal Stories in Film: 'Mother Child' and 'Sellout'
00:12:39
Speaker
But in the end, because of mum's stroke and because of my work as a carer looking after her,
00:12:45
Speaker
I ended up writing this short film called Mother Child, which ended up doing really, really well. was very lucky. It had a great festival run and it got me into Myth Accelerator. And off the back of that, I think it kind of reminded me that no, your real path is live action drama, long form directing, not not TV commercials. And I'm kind of glad that happened really.
00:13:09
Speaker
ah And Mother Child was kind of based on, ah from what I understand, like loosely based on your own personal experiences. And also you're now working on a project ah that is about the advertising world. So I wonder, like, is that, do you find that you often like draw from your life ah projects that you're kind of authoring yourself?
00:13:33
Speaker
Yes, predominantly. i think Mother Child was very much influenced by but like After the strokes, a lot of people said, you should make a documentary about it. I'm like, I'm living it. I don't really want to make a documentary about it.
00:13:47
Speaker
but But I thought it was really interesting the first two weeks after mum had come home from hospital and i you know, moved back to the Gold Coast. So I was back in our little housing commission apartment. And I hadn't lived with mum for 10 years. And with the neuroplasticity of her brain, you know recovering after the two strokes, she saw her 30 year old son and she's like, I'm going to mother you because that's what feels normal and comfortable. And I'm like, I'm 30 years old. I'm it's the other way around. I'm looking after you now. I'm
00:14:18
Speaker
technically the parent and you're the child. And it was this very difficult two week bedding in process for us. And I, you know, ended up, uh, instead of paying for therapy, I just wrote a short film and, and concentrated all of that into ah what is effectively like a 13 minute short.
00:14:37
Speaker
And just to really make it crazy, I decided to make a continuous take. So I was doing adolescence for adolescence. I kid adolescence is amazing. um But... ah Very ambitious. very Yeah, for sure. It was. it really, really was.
00:14:52
Speaker
and And I think it worked. The same with advertising, with Sellout. Which is your television show that you're the creator of that you're currently in development for. That's right, yeah. So the the genesis of it originally was, um you know, a team that actually give makeovers to really bigoted ads because at the time I was working at advertising, this was even before, you know, I'd say woke culture started to really gain traction because we're talking like 2015, 2016,
00:15:20
Speaker
But there was already a lot of push by casting, particularly in advertising, to cast with representation in mind. But, you know, the conversations that already being had 2015, 2016, people have no idea. it's just like tone deaf conversations. And I was listening to this going, fuck me dead. Like, what is going on?
00:15:39
Speaker
It was fascinating for me to see people who had never really had a wider perspective than things, you know, very, very naive tunnel vision view of representation of diversity and equity and inclusion start to fumble their way through the execution of putting that on screen authentically.
00:15:59
Speaker
But I found that very dramatically compelling, obviously very comedically compelling. And the idea was originally, what if about if I did every episode, there's this team that give a makeover to a really shitty ad.
00:16:13
Speaker
And that was around during COVID. I actually came up with this. Developed that. And the show over the years has gone through probably three iterations. It was originally called Diversitizers. And at the time, the Diversitizers team applied for funding at Screen Australia for development funding at Generate.
00:16:32
Speaker
And what they say, well, what was it? Declined with love because they really liked the idea, but it just wasn't really, you know, um it wasn't really landing. They're like, here are a couple of really, ah to this day, but really great pieces of feedback from the development executive that we're working with at the time, who's now become actually a really, really close friend.
00:16:56
Speaker
And so I kind of went away and I rebooted the show. It was more of a sitcom originally and, and you know, was starting to move it towards the dramedy end of the spectrum.
00:17:07
Speaker
And I turned it around and I reapplied for Screen Australia Funding because you've only got two chances. So this is the second one. Like I'm like, if I blow this, I'm fucked. That's it. You know, there goes three years. And, you know, um it development takes such a long time.
00:17:21
Speaker
So i renamed it Brand Aids. It had a way more darker tone. It took some of the original elements of the first incarnation of the series, but it was much more the story I think I really wanted to tell.
00:17:34
Speaker
Went back to Screen Australia and then like, this show could be a little bit controversial because it's now skewering woke capitalism. And I made it quite obvious that, you know, Screen Australia might also be the target of this show as well. As an institution that very much respect, and I think it's an incredible institution, but also everything was open for a bit of satire.
00:17:57
Speaker
and And then they came back like a month later and they said, you got the funding. And I nearly fell off my chair and I and i called them up. I'm like, are you sure? Like, that's wild.
00:18:11
Speaker
Because like, and they're like, no, no, we know, like, we understand that you'll be going after government institutions. And that's, that's part of the, the whole reason why we love this show, because it's a very, you know, truthful, authentic perspective on what you see to be the trigger points of woke capitalism in particular and where it can start to go awry. Yeah.
00:18:31
Speaker
And so that ended up giving us this wonderful opportunity to put together a writer's room. We went into a pilot script. It was a half hour at the time, eight by 30. And that slowly evolved over two years to now what is effectively called sellout. It's again, a different show from brand dates through that whole development process. It's now six-by-one-hour show, and it's very much different from how it started with diversitizers of brand aids. And and um I'd say it's post-woke now. it's it's It's beyond woke capitalism. And there's a new angle that I've taken the show that it seems to be really, you know, because this is the... ah
00:19:10
Speaker
This is the pitfall about writing something that's so zeitgeisty is that if you don't hit the nail on the head right then and there, if you don't strike all the irons hot, it can literally just disappear into history like, in you know, in a second. So you have to be really, really on top of it. And I think the show is ready now to to go to market, which it has been. So.
00:19:31
Speaker
um which is really, really exciting. But yeah, I'm i'm very, very, yeah very happy with the seven-year development process and counting. I've learned a lot. I ended up taking over the writing of the pilot and that was something that was a big thing for me because I've always predominantly seen myself as a director.
00:19:50
Speaker
And then to start writing something, let alone, you know, not a 15-minute short film anymore, it's one-hour pilot, I'm like, oh, my God, what am I doing? And a lot of it had to do with confidence. I just didn't have the confidence to write. I see myself as a slow writer. I still see myself as a bit of a, as a bit of imposter syndrome with writing, but It's, it's getting better when people read the part and they're like, no, this is really good. i'm like, okay.
00:20:16
Speaker
but Well, and like, you need that confidence, I suppose, as well with, you said you've been taking it to market. Um, like if you're pitching it to people, um, that confidence is so important. And I was just wondering from your experience of pitching this series, do you have any tips for anyone else that is, is going through that pitching process?
Advice for Aspiring Directors: Scripts and Set Dynamics
00:20:40
Speaker
I think it's the big tip and you know, it's obvious now that really from ah tonal perspective, from a voice perspective, does seem like the commissioning editors or, or a commissioning, the potential commissioning partner that you're pitching to ah the buyers, they really want a pilot. They really want a script. So you can, you know, put together a pitch deck and you can, you can make it as sleek and as either evocative until the cows come home, but They really want a pilot. That's not easy to do, you know, and I get it because like, not everybody's going to get funding and it if it took me nine months to write a pilot. I was like full-time writing as well, you know, in the midst of a little bit of freelance work. So it's hard to sustain yourself to write that.
00:21:26
Speaker
But unfortunately, that's where it's looking like, you know, the market is heading now that they really want to see pages. They want to see script pages because that really gives them in a very, very competitive space, an indication of that voice, an indication of the tone that a pitch deck can never really give you. So if you can try and put together a a script, that's going to put you way ahead of a lot of other people.
00:21:51
Speaker
um And what was interesting is that originally before I wrote the pilot, my pitch deck was probably about 40 pages long. When I wrote the pilot script, my pitch deck went down to about probably 12 pages. so Because all of the stuff that I put into the pitch deck, which was probably, you know, a writer's Bible in pitch deck clothing, um got inserted into the script pages instead. So it actually made that pitch deck way more robust and, and, and, efficient and snappy which i i also get commissioning editors have they're very time poor because there's a lot going on so you want to try and get their attention very quickly so yeah i've i have all the love and respect for commissioning editors it's not an easy job and you get a lot of pictures
00:22:36
Speaker
Yeah, so many. um ah Something that you said before, which I thought was interesting, was that you have always seen yourself as a director and that the writing part, you feel a bit more of an imposter syndrome. And I did, of course, Google you before this chat and look at your IMDb and- You know, I do know a bit about your work and things like that, but your credits are across a variety of areas that I was not expecting. Well, one was composer, which I i now see why, um but, you know, cinematographer, editor, um continuity, as well as AD.
00:23:14
Speaker
Did you do this out of necessity working on short films or were you figuring out what you wanted to do and then you kind of landed on, no, it's directing?
00:23:26
Speaker
I think that that's the film school in me, that you do it out of necessity because, you know, your teams are smaller and you learn to do all these different roles during film school. But what that kind of really... um showed me is that if you work in all these different roles and and get experience on all these different departments, it actually does feed into the way that, I mean, for me as a director, I think I've been very fortunate to work in all these different roles and you have this holistic approach to every single facet of the way a set works.
00:24:01
Speaker
So that makes me more efficient and more effective, I think, hopefully as a director. So I think I'm also really just a ah real student in every facet of filmmaking too. So everything fascinates me. I'll do anything.
00:24:18
Speaker
Like I even love prosthetics in makeup. I i want to learn more about that, you know, or or, you know, I take a real interest in locations, like not only just like finding locations, but then sourcing them and then working with the owners. Like I've done that like in in ads. So I understand the process of how to actually get that, you know, how to secure locations of filming. But that also then helps like the more practical aspect of that. So what I can potentially achieve as a director inside that location. So it all like feeds into literally the story, what's servicing the story and what's servicing how I can actually tell that story.
00:24:56
Speaker
So I find that very, very fascinating. So even the composing, I did end up composing. So there you go. I generally compose all the music for my shorts and maybe I'm lucky enough one day to to make a series, perhaps. you know I won't probably compose the whole thing, but I'd certainly love to work with a composer. And there's another reason why, like being able to like work with a composer and and level them in a very different way. you know, to what might be like. And I'm not necessarily saying, oh, yeah, I'm just going to I think that's the wrong cadence there. I think you need to fix that because that's the wrong chord progression. I wouldn't say that, but it's more like ah it might be a ah shorthand. It makes the whole process and the relationship, the creative process efficient because I have an understanding of where you're coming from and how you're actually creating your work and your art.
00:25:44
Speaker
Something I also I think I learned as you move through and you get more experienced as a filmmaker and as a storyteller is there are certain, yeah i think when I was younger, i was certainly more eager and maybe a bit more earnest and and you know, you'd blurt out things, you'd say things sometimes that you need to realise, no, you need to curb that a little bit. So like, you know, even if it was talking about editing, ah it was a conversation I was having with someone the other day. i may have been like this when I was a younger director. I certainly don't do this anymore. but It's like, you know, there's a certain amount of frames I feel like at the, you know, at the head of that shot that you can cut out. So it's like, that is not a good note. That's a terrible note. You know, like, you know, seven or eight frames, I need you to cut out. Well, I was talking about this with a friend.
00:26:26
Speaker
I'm like, yeah, no, no, because you want to, with notes and with feedback and with collaboration, you know, it's big picture for sure. Because you want to, you know, obviously encourage and you want to give people the confidence to have their own agency within the creative process and not feel like they're being micromanaged. The same would I would even say about my ADing and then shifting to directing.
00:26:51
Speaker
I'm sure I've had many instances where I'd be at the monitor and I'd want to say something as an AD, but I hold my tongue, you know, and I'm like, no, I've got to shut up because I'm going to probably add to the problem if I say something. Also, not my responsibility. of My responsibility are the actors and the story and making sure that the truth is there. It's not like so suddenly going in and adding another voice to to the conversation. Basically, I'm just saying I don't want the set to turn into the studio, even though it's very entertaining.
00:27:24
Speaker
Yeah. but Yeah, definitely. um You mentioned AD then. um and I was just wondering for people that don't know, could you explain what assistant directing is and kind of the differences between, you know, a third, a second, a first Yeah.
00:27:43
Speaker
The assistant director or ADing is a very humbling service role. um that There's three roles on the set. Generally, there are some variants, but there are three ADs on set. So you have your first assistant director who is effectively the producer's representative on set. and they're they're responsible for scheduling the day scheduling the shoot so they'll break down the script and they'll figure out based off a lot of different variables and constraints where and what day you can shoot particular scenes related to locations so you'd be bunching locations together obviously or scenes even ah if they occur
00:28:24
Speaker
across the entire script. If it's all in the same location, you'll be shooting that in that order rather than the chronological order, of course, because that would be wild. and then And then you're running the day. So you're running the set. So you're working different departments, making sure they all get their moment to do their little bit to make sure the magic all happens.
00:28:44
Speaker
So you're effectively a conductor really on set in the day and you have to be very observant. I think you've listen a lot. And then if you're lucky enough, most of the time, first ADs are the ones that say rolling up or turnover.
00:28:57
Speaker
And they're the ones that actually say action. It's only the director who says cut. In very, very, very, very rare instances, the director will say action. But most probably it's it's usually the first AD that actually says action. So there is a joke, a first AD joke that, you know, you generally only pay to say three words, which is turnover. We're set.
00:29:17
Speaker
Oh, that's two words. Whoops. I can't do math. Three phrases. up Yeah, three phrases and then action. That's it. The second AD is a way more, um it's a production office representative role on set. So you're running back a house, which is makeup, costume in the morning. So you're checking in actors, you're making sure they're going through the works. And then once they've been delivered to set, you are obviously the primary assistant to the first assistant director.
00:29:44
Speaker
And you're also thinking about the next day. So you're actually doing the core sheet for the next day. So your head is always really in the future as a second AD. And the third AD is the onset assistant to the first AD. There's a lot of assistants to assistants And their primary role is to service again in the first AD. You know, they hand up call sheets. They make sure casts are comfortable. They're thinking about where casts are sitting, where monitors are going, all that sort of stuff. And then also hopefully maybe sometimes putting up rush fires before they get to the first AD.
00:30:19
Speaker
And then their job is to also set background. Now, it just depends. Sometimes first ADs really like setting backgrounds. So they'll give the plan to the third AD and the third AD has execute that plan. Or the third AD might be a set background.
00:30:35
Speaker
Is that like where the extras are going and like what set background mean? Yeah. Yeah. So third 18 is actually a really, really great role for like emerging directors. You know, if you need a little bit of work, sometimes you can get yourself ah a job like that because you get to effectively direct extras. You are directing performance and it's a very creative role. So you're thinking about the blocking. You're thinking about, you know, you've seen the block of what the director wants for the actors to do and where the camera is going to move and go. And then you're filling in the gaps. You're basically creating the life that actually makes the thing really, really truthful and authentic. I mean, if you just got two actors in a school and, you know, it's supposed to be a bustling school and it's completely empty. You know, imagine Euphoria, the first season without any students and just people wandering around all the time.
00:31:22
Speaker
So that's what makes the shot really, really exciting. That's what makes it really, really alive because you see that background action that makes it feel like, oh, yeah, that's indicative of the real world.
00:31:33
Speaker
So it's an art form in itself. Extras are very, very cool. They can also be very, very interesting people. and And you're wrangling them like wrangling cats.
00:31:44
Speaker
But so it's a very, very fun job. So from what you're saying there, so is it kind of a more kind of traditional hierarchy? you work from a, you start out as a third, you work to become a second, you work to become a first. Is that right?
00:32:01
Speaker
That's right. You know, I had probably, it probably wasn't as traditional as that, my path. I started it off as a third and I worked on Home and Away for about a year. And that's really, really, it's it's such a great way to learn how to AD because it's such a robust and and small crew and it's amazing what that show actually does with such a small crew and and it allows you to really take charge yourself as an ad because i don't have the scaffolding of other ad's to help me and there were days where it'll just be me as a third ad and i'll have you know eight extras or there'll be days where we had 60 extras because it's a wedding scene And on a bigger show, you'd probably have about two more additional AEDs that would help you with a crowd of 60. But in this case, sometimes I just didn't have that. So it was a really, really strong way for me to learn the ropes, just have that confidence to be able to to work a big group like that.
00:32:55
Speaker
I did that for about a year and then I started second ADing on Home and Away. Although second ADing on Home and Away is just slightly different from what a second AD would do on other shows because Home and Away is such a well-aweled machine. Production takes on a lot of that forward scheduling and court sheet and stuff. So, you know, therefore second ADing really lands and focuses on getting cast through makeup and costume in the morning. and then assisting the first AD on set.
00:33:27
Speaker
And it probably wasn't until I stepped out of Home and Away that I started firsting and I would come in and basically cover other firsts. So I wouldn't say that I'm a full-time AD, particularly because I'm i'm writing so much now yeah and pitching on staff to to direct and developing stuff to direct. So what I do now is When ADs kind of get to a point where they've had a lot of experience full time, end up taking on daily gigs. So you become a freelance additional assistant director.
00:33:58
Speaker
And your primary focus is basically to run crowds. So last year, for example, i was lucky enough to work on on Street Fighter um and you'd have days where it's just like, i don't know, 160, 180 people, maybe And myself and all the group of ADs, a lot of us were freelance on daily contracts. You'd come in and you'd you'd run that crowd. You'd get them performing.
00:34:24
Speaker
You'd get them through the works in the morning and there long days and it's a lot of fun. So that's predominantly what I do now. I don't really do full time anymore. um That being said- Which gives the space to kind of work on your own projects. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Otherwise, you know, I've done a couple of gigs as a first AD on different series. I think I did a digital original, SBS digital original, that a year or two ago. And that was actually Moni. Oh, right. Yeah. And then I first AD'd on He Had a Coming, which think you interviewed Gretel and Chloe. Yes.
00:34:57
Speaker
The Stan original series. Yes. Yes. ah So that was towards the end. We had like a second unit come in. And so I stepped in and first on that. So there's all these little, I like this lifestyle that you can come in and and do little short stints and you get to say hi to everyone. They're like, oh my God, it's great to see you. And then that's it. I'm out. So yeah Well, how do you feel that um your work as an AD, like you you've kind of said, you know, with Third how it was great working with all the extras and stuff and that helped you as a director. Are there any other examples of how you feel like your work as an AD helped set you up to be the director that you are today?
00:35:37
Speaker
I think it helps you really, again, holistically understand what you can achieve in a day. And when you understand what you can achieve in the day and the whole process of how that's come about, like the reason why everything's scheduled, the reason why everything's the way it is,
00:35:55
Speaker
You can then start to almost bend reality to work within those restrictions because I i really do believe that art does thrive with restrictions. And and with all the, whether it's budget, whether scheduling, where it's, you know, cast availabilities, location constraints. safety issues, you can really start to think outside of the box to try and actually make sure you can still maintain your vision and that storytelling and and that truth. But having that, I think, AD background has unlocked a lot of that for me so I can keep track of where everything's going on. It also does make you more efficient director. Not that I'm compromising anything, but there are just some things you can do sometimes, like, you know, if a brush fire pops up.
00:36:41
Speaker
And then I can very much quickly pivot to a different thing. And let's do that first and then come back. And so that's another trick up your sleeve where you can get yourself out of a trap that a lot of directors can generally find themselves in. You know, there's a technical issue. suddenly you're sitting there in the fetal position, swaying back and forth on your seat, going, what do I do? What do I do? What do you do? like, hang on, I could do this. yeah and started plotting a way that we can get ourselves out of that mess. So that really has helped, I think, for sure.
00:37:11
Speaker
And what kind of director do you feel like you are? Like, do you are you someone that prefers kind of working really closely with actors? Do you feel like you lean toward more of the technical side with cameras and things? Like, do you what kind of director do you think you are?
00:37:28
Speaker
I think I'm a bit of both and that's probably come from different mentors.
Mentorship and Directing Style
00:37:32
Speaker
So I've ah've been lucky enough to have two directors attachment mentors over the years. So Catherine Miller was the first attachment and I worked with her and she mentored me on a place to call home.
00:37:44
Speaker
And Catherine is the most beautiful director who balances the technical with the work with actors. and And she has the most impeccable prep. She's incredible with her prep.
00:37:56
Speaker
And I remember the first time i i I met her and she said, how do you want this attachment to work? You know, do you want this to be like an observation attachment or do you really actually want to get this experience, you know, a real proper all access experience? I'm like all access, obviously. So I remember she literally picked up the two scripts from Black Block and plomped front of me. She said, start breaking that down.
00:38:18
Speaker
Start blocking it. Start doing your shot list as if you're practically directing this. I'm like, okay. So went and did that. And I came back and what that allowed for us, what it formed was this almost symbolic relationship where we would trade ideas and shots and and Catherine would lovingly sometimes take, you know, some of those ideas and and infuse it into what she's done. And it was really, really quite an amazing opportunity to hone my craft. So that's the technical side.
00:38:49
Speaker
I would probably prep shot this. I don't go boarding. I don't go deep into boarding that much unless it's a very, very specific technical scene. and my chicken scribbles are wild anyway so nobody can follow those i'm sure um i like shot lists because it's really just for me you know it's just a backup just in case everything goes to shit and then i also had ian watson as ah when i did my attachment at home and away as a director ian watson is very much known as an app as director And he comes from a theatre background and he's so great with performance and and honing and and and coaxing out incredible performances from actors. Sometimes I watch him and it's like, how did you do that? Because you didn't do anything. So he has this very mysterious magic about him.
00:39:34
Speaker
It's lint in his eye when he does it. It's quite funny. And he actually, during my attachment, it was also a very humbling experience because I was also, I did like a little stint as an actor. So he treated it all, it weirdly, he treated like that, that he was like a dramaturge to me, even though he was also a directing mentor for me.
00:39:54
Speaker
I remember i was one day hitting a wall and and I got quite emotional because he he got me through that. He helped me to break that wall. And I think that had lot to do with confidence. And then his approach to really giving actors the floor and giving them the agency to take their own, you know, he'll he'll start like ah he'll he'll give them the goalposts of where they begin and end in a scene, particularly with a blocking, but then everything else they fill in.
00:40:19
Speaker
And it's very, very freeing as a result. You get to carve and and discover the scene as you go. um And that actually really works for me now because I think, again, there's this efficiency and in that if you give the actors that that accountability and responsibility to go in and they really put in all of their prep that they've done, they offer that, they provide that, you know, without me going in and again, micromanaging their block and this is where I want you to sit. and this is how I want you to hold the cup and all that sort of stuff. If I'm giving them all of these directions and and offers in a block, can you only imagine how much it's percolating through their brain as they like as they try and process that? So I just feel like you've probably blown maybe the first two takes because these poor people are trying to figure out ways to make sure that all of that is, you know, every single thing is ticked.
00:41:10
Speaker
And you don't really start to get, I think, truthful, authentic performances until part of the third or fourth take. And then the inner AD in me is saying, like, why did you blow those first two takes then? That was stupid of So having the actors, like, organically find their performance and then you can tweak it a long way is so much nicer. And Watto, Ian Watson, taught me that. So it was really cool.
00:41:33
Speaker
Yeah. And um so I'm wondering... Yeah, what were you then drawn to about directing and writing in particular when we were talking about all of those other roles that you potentially could have gone down the path of?
00:41:51
Speaker
i read somewhere once or somebody had said that, you know, all you are really as a director is that you are. It's so true. You're basically the first glorified Netflix viewer who gets to watch the show.
00:42:05
Speaker
Literally, because you're the person who's standing or sitting in front of a monitor. So you're watching it. You're the first audience member that watches it. Uncut, unabridged, completely raw.
00:42:17
Speaker
And your job is to literally be a lie detector. So you're watching a performance and you're making sure that it's truthful. And if it's not truthful, it will bump. And if it bumps, you have to find a very, very...
00:42:32
Speaker
clever, ingenious way to adjust or massage that in a timely fashion without pissing off an ego or offending like 50 people or wasting the crew and cast time. So it's a pretty tricky job, but it's also, that is all you are.
00:42:48
Speaker
I think other directors probably have way more inflated visions of themselves, but I don't give a fucking shit about that. All you are really is you're a cog in the machine and if you're lucky enough sometimes you get an opportunity to go up and and massage and and and lead somebody in a different direction, an actor in a different direction to it's via an offer to to explore a new approach to that performance.
00:43:12
Speaker
And when you're lucky enough to actually then watch that take again, you know, the next take and and it works, it's like, by God, that's such a great feeling. That's why I love it. But then I was wondering why i love that feeling so much is because it all comes back down to, again, I think, you know, the first time i actually remember being in a cinema and I was probably about, ah we're talking 1990, right? I think five or six. The first movie I ever remember watching and it like was literally ingrained in my brain was The Little Mermaid because I would have been in like probably preschool and my preschool that day had a little outing. So we all like walked together to the cinema to go watch. and this was at Sundale, an old shopping center on the Gold Coast. And we all watched The Little Mermaid.
00:44:00
Speaker
And I think it was ah it was a Hoyt cinema back then. I very much remember that even the Hoyt's ident that started before The Little Mermaid. and And it was so scary because it was like this storm. Like remember those old THX idents, you know, and like helicopters and things would be flying around sound.
00:44:17
Speaker
Hoyts did a version of that and it was all like rain and storm and then suddenly the Hoyts logo comes up and you're like shitting yourself and then The Little Mermaid starts. And I was just like, I was wowed. That feeling, you know, that feeling when you watch something and The Little Mermaid such a beautiful movie and it just works, right? Because the puzzle is solved.
00:44:38
Speaker
And I see that as the reason why I love directing and now writing so much because they're, even though i hate puzzles, but the puzzle for me is the filmmaking process. And I love it when it's sold because that feeling you get when you solve it, it's special. It's better than, it's, I've never tried meth, but I'm sure it's better than meth. So yeah.
00:45:01
Speaker
wow Your pull out quote for the episode. There you go. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, that's two things now. If I'm 80, I'll compose when I'm 80. Maybe I'll do meth as well. What am they ah And see if it compares. um And so, yeah, as a writer, you said that, um you know, it's it's something that you've had to work on. What's your process?
00:45:26
Speaker
i'm an evening rider oh god ah to the point where because my mum still lives with me you know and uh so in this two-bedroom apartment and in the inner west and you know 2am in the morning she's like she's because she's the Cantonese side right so I'm half Kanto half um half white and uh she'd be like screaming out what are you still doing awake your body clock's bad it's bad for your like energy for your chi Cantonese, Chinese, ge And so it'll be 2 a.m., 3 a.m. in the morning. I'm like, no, no, I've got to write it because it's only just coming through now because I would have spent the entire day constipated trying to figure out a story bit.
00:46:03
Speaker
It's a very, very odd process. I find that sometimes it's the most unfortunate situation. i would so i would I would, you know, bang my head on the wall for the entire day trying to figure out a story bit again. It's always story beats. Mm-hmm.
00:46:17
Speaker
And finally, it all literally comes together and works in my brain as I'm having a shower. It is the most unfortunate situation because then I've got to run out and go to my notes app and like type it in while I'm still like, I haven't even dried off. writing it all down on my phone.
00:46:35
Speaker
And then I've got to go back and finish the shower or just give up and cry. But um but yeah, that's that's part of the process. Part of the process is also i because when I AD and I'm still doing it freelancing, it takes me about two or three days to get back into a writing mode.
00:46:52
Speaker
So, you know, there's a process where I sometimes just treat myself and I'll go out into the city. I don't have an office or anything like that. So I like writing in food courts. I like writing in shopping centres. I like writing in libraries or cafes.
00:47:06
Speaker
And, you know, when the Metro opened in Sydney a couple of years ago, i got very excited. So that's now part of my process as well. So I'll like take the Metro to Barangaroo.
00:47:17
Speaker
And I have a very secret like table. It's the only table with seats at Barangaroo. Everything else is just seats. And it's the most amazing view because you have these beautiful uninterrupted water views with like dappled sunlight from the ah the eucalyptus above.
00:47:32
Speaker
And I set up there with a coffee and and I have ah ah a laptop sleeve that turns into a stand and I have a separate keyboard. and I put on my AirPods and I i write. that's That's my office. It's free. Thank you very much, City of Sydney. So these are the little things that I set myself up. And my God, it's so lovely because when you get into these little routines, it really does help with the writing process.
00:47:56
Speaker
In terms of my, like the creative writing itself, I actually write a lot like I write music. So this is the composing side and it all is full circle. I write my scenes like I write a piece of music. So there's phrasing.
00:48:11
Speaker
And I've realised that the phrasing in... in music and you know I'll sit down and I actually still love to improvise and I'll just start composing themes and pieces of music on a piano. I can still do that to this day.
00:48:24
Speaker
It's the same with writing. So beats and beat changes. And from my acting background, like breaking down a script, oddly enough matched with the phrasing that I would actually think about when I'm writing a piece. So it all translated into writing and that's my process. So I probably write and I edit a lot as I go. So that's probably why I'm so slow.
00:48:45
Speaker
what would probably take very seasoned writer, maybe two or three months to write a one hour pilot. Yeah, blew out to about nine months for me. But when you're reading a first draft, it's probably like draft 28 that of yeah I've written. I'm just calling it the first draft. And that's purely because I will write a scene And um I could probably, it depends. Maybe I'll do three pages a day. Maybe I'll do 10 pages a day. Then I'll go back the next day and I'll edit that down. And that probably takes half of my writing day before I actually start writing new scenes.
00:49:15
Speaker
But a lot of it, again, has to do with the phrasing. So structure all a sudden kind of miraculously works because of the phrasing. You know, you're phrasing within the scene, you're phrasing within the episode. And then character and dialogue I love as well. So that just all kind of comes hand in hand really.
00:49:32
Speaker
And ah if you had any advice for any creatives listening in the screen industry, what ah what advice would you give someone? Be very patient.
00:49:42
Speaker
It won't happen straight away. And there's always someone better than you. And I think when I was younger, in my 20s, was always very, you know, you have this idea. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to go to Hollywood. I'm going to, you know. I'm going make it and I'm going to be directing all these big films and stuff. And, you know, you you kind of have those rough edges slowly sanded away.
00:50:05
Speaker
And I've been very fortunate to have a lot of mentors and a lot of experiences throughout these years that have really humbled that initial romanticised, idealistic view of what I thought I would be in the industry.
00:50:17
Speaker
Even now, like I'm 41 this year and I'm still learning and I refuse to stop learning until I take that method 80. But um until then, i i find that the long game and the patience, because investing in your own IP will always take infinitely longer.
00:50:37
Speaker
And the journey along the way that I've really, really had has very much been rewarding for me as a result of that. So... So the patience is a massive virtue and I used to be very impatient and um I think for a variety of reasons, whether it's my creativity, my journey so far in the industry and then even caring for mum, which is a whole different kettle of fish. you know that is I have half my time working in the industry, i have half my time looking after a stroke survivor. So there are all these medical appointments and a lot of requirements that you have to think about. So that's also played into the patients as well, because when something like that happens, a massive life situation happens, you know, and I probably don't talk about it as much as I should on set my experiences in that private part of my life. But, but by golly, that also teaches you patients, you know, and the mortality of it all and the, the humanity of it all. It's it's really humbling and, And, um, living with my mom as an adult and getting to know her as an adult and, and how that relationship and her influence that this day still feeds into my creativity is quite amazing. And like that, that is, you can't put a price on that.
00:51:54
Speaker
That's invaluable. So patience. Yeah. And, I suppose that leads into, because I know what the pay it forward question is, um but I feel like that leads into pay our pay pay it forward segment quite nicely, which is the part of the podcast where you're going to be asked a question from a previous guest and then you'll come up with a question for our next guest. So our previous guest is Eve Foreman.
00:52:25
Speaker
ah who is an entertainment lawyer. And Eve's question was? Sounds really cheesy to use the word joy and thinking about joy, but i I think in terms of what are those parts of the daily routine, what is it in your work that does give you joy or what are those elements that are exciting or that make you laugh or that are really nice? Yeah.
00:52:48
Speaker
I think that has a lot to do with living with mum and being with mum. So earlier this year, i went to Screen Forever. Funnily enough, two years ago when I went to Screen Forever, mum actually came with me because, of course, you know, she also has a history of the Gold Coast as well. so She came with me and while I was at the conference for the three days, she also held court at the Star Casino and all her friends came to visit her. And a lot of the producers and writers and directors I know also know Kitty as well, hilariously. So... She became the people's princess of whole screen forever last year. This year, she didn't come with me. And so she was here all by herself, but calling her up and telling her, you know, how the conference was going and and then also hearing that while I wasn't here, she managed to walk up the street to a particular bus, then to get that particular bus to swap to a different bus, to then go to her her physio, her neurogym physio appointment at RPA.
00:53:49
Speaker
and um And she was pretty pooped, you know, when she got there, but she, she did it. That made me smile. Like, you know, cause usually that's something that we would do together. I'll take her and there's a whole process. I will go for lunch and then afterwards we' find a park and, you know, we'd sit for a bit so she can relax and then she would go. and she always likes to go to the bathroom before she goes to the gym. So was all these different things that she did it herself.
00:54:11
Speaker
So they're usually the things that I find routine, but, you know, it's also lovely to see how much she still has has recovered and still continues to grow and that confidence even after.
00:54:23
Speaker
How many years has it been since the strokes? Probably 11 years now, you know, and and she's getting older and sure there's certain things that are regressing. But to this day, like she still shows up and I'll do a long, long day on set. I'll come home like 16, 17 hours. She has a home cooked meal for me. It's wild. I'm very, very lucky. So it's that teamwork aspect. And so having that, that's what makes me smile.
00:54:49
Speaker
it's It's having her as basically a partner in crime. But then also we have our independent lives. Like I've got all, of you know, my friends, a lot of them know her. I think most people like her more than me. So um she's, she's, yeah, she's, ah that's, that's what makes me smile. But also such a great question as well. My gosh.
00:55:10
Speaker
Yeah. Well, we will leave it there. But thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. um Really appreciate you coming along. This was so wonderful. Thank you so much, Karis.
00:55:24
Speaker
That was writer-director Tin Pang and a big thanks to Tin for joining me on the podcast. This episode was produced and edited by myself with logo design by Shara Parsons and music by Seb "Seb O Tage" Gavrilovic
00:55:36
Speaker
If you enjoyed listening, please hit that subscribe button and leave us a review. See you in a fortnight.