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AP Pobjoy: creating SBS Digital Originals series Homebodies
29 Plays8 hours ago
AP Pobjoy joins the latest episode to talk about the SBS Digital Originals series Homebodies. AP is the creator, lead-writer and one of the directors on the series, which is streaming on SBS on Demand now.
Throughout the podcast, AP talks about the journey of Homebodies – from pitching the idea to Mad Ones producer Cyna Strachan, through to writers’ rooms with people like Charlotte Mars, working with set-up director Harry Lloyd and the challenges of casting those key roles. AP also talks to applying and developing Homebodies through the SBS initiative Digital Originals, takeaways from writing the 6 x 10-minute episodes, and much more.
In Homebodies Darcy (Luke Wiltshire) returns home to look after his estranged mother (Claudia Karvan), but discovers she’s got an unusual housemate: the teenage ghost of his pre-transition self (Jazi Hall).
Watch all episodes: https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-series/homebodies
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Transcript
Introduction to Breaking Screen Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to Breaking Screen, a podcast about the Australian screen industry and the creative people within it. I'm your host, Caris Bizzaca and I'm recording this podcast from the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, where I'm very grateful to be a visitor and be able to work on these lands.
00:00:18
Speaker
Always was, always will be.
Homebodies Series Premiere Discussion
00:00:21
Speaker
On today's episode is AP Pobjoy the creator, lead writer, and one of the directors of SBS digital original series Homebodies, which premiered at Series Mania in France and which you can watch all episodes of on SBS On Demand now.
00:00:36
Speaker
In Homebodies, Luke Wiltshire stars as Darcy, who returns home to look after his estranged mother, played by Claudia Karvin and but discovers that she's got an unusual housemate, the teenage ghost of his pre-transition self, played by Jazi Hall.
Pitching and Collaboration Insights
00:00:52
Speaker
Throughout the podcast, AP talks about the journey of homebodies, from pitching the idea to Mad One's producer, Cyna Strachan, through to writers' rooms with people like Charlotte Mars, working with set-up director Harry Lloyd, and the challenges of casting those key roles. AP also talks to applying for and developing homebodies through the SBS initiative Digital Originals, takeaways from writing those six 10-minute episodes, and much more. Here's that chat.
00:01:22
Speaker
We always start off the podcast same
Early Filmmaking Inspiration
00:01:23
Speaker
way. um Could you please tell me what the inciting incident of your career was? Yeah, I had to really think about this question because I was like, it could be so many like different things depending how you think about it. But I think the inciting incident of my career probably dates back to when I was a little kid and my family bought a video camera for the first time and that was really exciting to everybody. And, you know, i would always make these like little documentary style videos with it with me and my cousins and we would like go around filming our neighbourhood and like go around filming all of our pets. And we would narrate a David Attenborough style like documentaries. Mm-hmm.
00:02:06
Speaker
And then once i got a little bit older and learned what photo booth and iMovie was, it was like game over. i would just be making like little film projects all the time and me and my cousins would go in the backyard and film something and then like race back into the house, edit it together on like a really, really old computer, you know, because it was the days when you had like a computer room, you know, in your house. And Yeah, I think I think that was like the first time I really like started to understand the process so of coming up with an idea and like writing it down and filming it in some sort of way. And I think I just caught that bug. And then it started getting a bit bigger when I was in high school. And like I studied a media subject for the first time and I was like, oh, this is a real job.
00:02:47
Speaker
Of course, people don't want to admit that, but this is a real job that I could do in the future. and then after that, I went to uni and I did the film school thing. I made a couple of very, very first try short films. And then I graduated film school and I made my first, dare I say, like serious film. Mm hmm. What was that? Which was a TV documentary called Why Did She Have to Tell the World that ended up getting acquired by the ABC and like won some awards. And that was sort of the first thing that really helped propel me like into the film and TV space as a writer director. But I think the seat of it was definitely that video camera.
00:03:23
Speaker
and that iMovie. I think that was i think that was where it all where it all started for me. Yeah,
Dual Career Path Exploration
00:03:28
Speaker
okay. And so just checking, so like you started more in like ah with your with your serious um kind of films, um you started more in documentary and then because there was also Anna Raised, like and then have you been working on scripted stuff on the side at the same time or did you kind of move documentary into scripted?
00:03:49
Speaker
um So it was a is a bit of both for me like in film school we always did one half of the year was narrative drama and one half of the year was unscripted and so i kind of left film school with a graduate film that was a drama film and then i also made it and and another short documentary and I i mean i I'm a big lover of documentary and I think that the reason why I started in doco was because it was just something that was really accessible to me and you could make it quite cheaply. yeah And I was just like, I want to make something. And, you know, Why Did She Have to Tell the World was a film about Phyllis Paps and Francesca Curtis, the first lesbian women to be televised in Australia. And they sort of found me because I was sort of researching about their life. And I just thought for me, it was like,
00:04:33
Speaker
what what's the best format to tell this particular story? And it was a documentary because I was like, the women need to be able to speak to their own experiences. And then so after i did Shift to the World was made, it was sort of like people kind of assumed that I was a documentary director and they that, you know, and so i kind of went down that path. And like you said, I made Una Raised a couple of years later with Rob Innes, which was a digital series that followed nine trans teenagers across Australia, finishing their final years of high school. And was all self-shot and we made that during COVID. And I love making documentaries because I felt like I learned the most about story. You know, I feel like everyone should make a documentary at least once in their life because it's hard and you have to find the story. You know, it really teaches you a lot of storytelling dynamics and especially working with real life, like people and subjects. But during that time as well, I was making Unarrays and I was making Why Have to Tell the World. I was also working in scripted TV and feature development in various places. So I kind of had this sort of dichotomy. Like I had, I was working on unscripted work on the outside, but on the inside I was like my day job was TV development. Yeah.
00:05:39
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. And so yeah, on that kind of TV development. So you were the recipient of Film Victoria's Screen Development Internship um and then also worked in-house at Aquarius Films and Unless Pictures.
TV Development and Team Building
00:05:51
Speaker
So ah what were some of your takeaways then from those that time working in development?
00:05:59
Speaker
Yeah. So like, yeah, I think, you know, my journey into the industry parallel to my directing and writing work was through development and like working in various production companies and broadcasters and agencies. And didn't really think that's where I would end up. Six years ago, I didn't even really know what TV development was. Like there's a lot about working development that's really like smoke and mirrors and people don't really know what it is. And I was one of those people. Mm-hmm. I was lucky enough to become um a development assistant at Orange Entertainment Co. Years ago, I was working underneath Dan Lake. Shout out to Dan Lake for giving me my first job.
00:06:31
Speaker
And then I saw this internship pop up and I was Melbourne based at the time. And I read it and i was like, this is amazing. Like, how does nobody know that this program exists? Like, I think it was like the second year that it was running and nobody knew it. And I was like, oh my God, like a 12 month paid placement to work in all these places. Like, hell yeah. Like I'm going apply for this. And I did. And that was back in 2021. And twenty one and i was, um I was one of the recipients that year alongside Ravi Chand, who's also an amazing writer and producer who I got to do that year with. And it was just an incredible program. Like I got to work at Fremantle, I got to work at ABC, I got to work at Big Screen and I just learned so much and I built so many wonderful relationships that I still have now. And it was really just like a crash course in what development is, particularly in Australia and how it works from like getting the concept of an idea and then bring it all the way to the the green light.
00:07:19
Speaker
But on top of that, you know, I got to understand what commissioning priorities were. I got to understand what commissioning strategies were, which became very helpful later on, just being on the inside of that. And then after that, Aquarius Films brought me on in as a development coordinator and then I worked as a development executive at UNLESS. So I was really grateful to go through the whole nine yards. Like i started and as an assistant, then a script coordinator, then a coordinator, then a development, like, you know, I kind of went through the whole life cycle.
00:07:44
Speaker
But I think my key... takeaways from working in development space is probably like two big things that like sit with me. I think the first thing is understanding
Series Development for Digital Originals
00:07:53
Speaker
the value of development and how important development is to the lifespan of your show. And I guess the final product, the more you interrogate, the deeper you go in the early days, the better your show will be.
00:08:03
Speaker
And like don't be afraid of change and and really push as far as you can when it comes to developing the scripts. And obviously like we're in a time where development budgets are getting slimmer and the turnarounds are faster, which is like whole other separate conversation that I could talk about for hours. But good development and good writing will save you time.
00:08:22
Speaker
It will save you time on set. It will save you time when you cut it together. So treat development as the bedrock of your show and you want that bedrock to be as strong as possible. You know, don't flake out on development. It's probably one of the most important parts of the process.
00:08:36
Speaker
And then the second thing is probably around formulating a team. You know, I worked with a lot of different teams at that time and and now now being on the other side and having to put a team together for a show that I'm working on for a commissioner, like just being really intentional about the scripting and the producing team and making sure that fits into the ethos of your show. development is an extremely collaborative process and your scripts will go through the wash so many times, especially with a commissioner. So having a team that you can kind of stand by and they can stand by you and it's just, they're just as passionate about what you're trying to say is like really important. I think those are the two things that I really took away from spending, you know, five years working in-house. Yeah. And when you say, um, a team, are you meaning kind of like the, you know, um, director, writer, producer, or are you also saying like who you're going to have in kind of a writer's room and things like that? Cause like, you know, people that have been in writer's rooms, you can, there are some that just like really work. Um, and is, is that what you mean by a team or is it kind of those key creatives?
00:09:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think all of it. I think all of it. Like obviously directors is a little bit further down the process when you've got, when the scripts are sort of in a place where you can start to think about, oh, who would be a great director for this show? But I think in the early days it's really the producer or producers, the script producer, the lead writer, and then who are you going to have in your room or who else is going write on the show, you know? And yeah, I think, you know and that's also another thing that I learned, like putting a room together is a skill.
00:10:02
Speaker
Like learning to sort of create a room of five people who can then be the ones to crack open this show is a bit of a skill and it's sort of something you have to work on. And, um you know, and of course we all want to work with people that relate to the show and that we think can speak to the show. And so i think that's what I'm talking about is more the producing and the scripting team and the writers. Mm-hmm. Because I think those are the people that form the bedrock of development. And then that's great because then you come out with even better scripts and you can go to even better directors who going to bring it to life. And so it's just about being intentional about it. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And so then, ah you know, talking a little bit.
00:10:37
Speaker
more about development. um So I also want to talk about Homebodies, which is your new series. When this episode is released, you will be able to go watch all episodes um on SBS On Demand. So go check it out. I'll put a link in the show notes. But um when did the idea for Homebodies first come about for you? And I suppose like ah another little extra bit to that is then after that point, like when did you pitch it?
00:11:06
Speaker
So the idea for homebodies honestly has been with me in the back of my mind for like a really, really long time. And obviously working in the development space, I wasn't able to apply for a lot of initiatives, right, because you're working in the organisations. So it kind of just always, i was like, I'm going to make that one day. It's always kind of in the in back of my mind. But homebodies, you know, it comes from quite a personal place. Mm-hmm.
00:11:27
Speaker
It's kind of based on me and my mum and how we navigated our relationship during my gender transition. Obviously, Homebodies is a much more fictionalised version of that. But that was the main inspiration, you know, being able to to show both sides of that experience, like both of an adult child and that of a parent who are trying to reconnect with each other and trying to understand one another. Mm-hmm.
00:11:49
Speaker
But what I found in that experience, particularly coming out as trans, is like I felt like there was this like old self lingering in the lives of my loved ones. And so the idea of having a ghost in the show sort of spurred from that and became the catalyst for both characters confronting their past and to to talk about some like unspoken things.
00:12:08
Speaker
But I guess in like a really fun, entertaining way, you know, kind of this genre twist. And for that journey to be authentic and real and honest and funny and heartbreaking and like all of the things to get to a place of feeling. So the idea came from being able to conceptualise a show that was firmly placing a trans man in the lead and had a queer trans lens but was ultimately a really universal story about a mother and son relearning each other again. And then that son also learning to accept himself and all that he is and all that he was. You know, the idea that like regardless of gender identity,
00:12:38
Speaker
we were all once somebody else. Like I feel like we were all we all need to confront who we used to be But in terms of pitching it so i always envisioned Homebodies for the Digital Originals format because I was seeing all of the amazing work that was coming out of that initiative. Some of the people that I really admire now as writers and directors and producers, they went through that process. And I just felt like the shows every year were just like getting better and better and I was like, God.
00:13:07
Speaker
I want to do it though, you know? And so Kaina Strachan, who produced Homebodies, who's one half of Mad Ones alongside Liam Hyen, who EP'd the show, Kaina and I met at working at Aquarius Films together and we became good friends. And I always thought Kaina was just like this powerhouse producer. She was amazing. And like even now she's becoming one of the most recognised producers. I just, her work is is really amazing. I think you're a lucky person if you get to work with Kaina and Liam. But I always knew I wanted to pitch a digital original show to her. I was like, that's my goal. I'm going to do that.
00:13:38
Speaker
And Homebodies lived on my laptop just as a logline and as a one-pager. So it was just the seed of an idea at that stage, but I couldn't stop thinking about these characters. And I was like, okay, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going pitch.
00:13:49
Speaker
The rest you can say is no. Like, you know, let's just let's just rip the Band-Aid off. And so three years ago, Kynar and I are at the pub having a beer, and she asked me, she was like, well, you know, what do you have? And I was like, oh, I have this little idea. Like, I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're after. Like, and I pitched the show. And kind of really liked it and was like, I think this could be a really great fit for this format, you know? and she was just like, send me any i idea, like send me anything you have.
00:14:15
Speaker
And we were sort of off from there. And I think Kynna, with her producer brain, could kind of see 10 steps forward and was like, this this could be a real fit for this initiative. And because it wasn't a long-form project or anything beforehand, we were just able to really tailor the idea for the initiative and for the application. So it all just kind of came together that way. But, yeah, i just ripped the Band-Aid off and I just pitched to Kynna over a beer.
00:14:38
Speaker
And, like, how how long was then process? the period of time of like preparing to put in that application? Cause those applications are pretty, they're they're pretty intensive.
00:14:50
Speaker
they are They're definitely a workout. I feel like I can't remember exactly, but I, um I pitched it to kind of quite early. yeah you wanted to get a headstart on it. yeah And we also wanted to put the team together, which I can go into later, but we we wanted to put, help build a team on the application. Cause we kind of felt like, the two things that were stand out in these applications, particularly because Mad Ones had experience making late covers, was the idea and the creative merit matched with the team, you know, and those things working together. So I can't remember exactly, but it was, you know, we had a couple of months, yeah you know, I think it was the July time we were applying and I had sort of spoken to kind in March time so that we could really work on the application.
00:15:29
Speaker
And Kirstie Fisher, who was our script producer and our EP, also really helped us with our application as well. We kind of had this idea that like if we're sort of vying for a first stage of development, we want to have the team that we would have for that first stage of development. You know, we want to we want to make this absolutely undeniable to who was across the desk. But it was it was a workout. it was I think I had to film the video pitch twice,
00:15:52
Speaker
because basically we filmed it once and then we were like, I think the story works better this way. And so we changed the the story and then i had to film it again. But it was worth it. You know, I think the more intentional and more the more work you put into the applications, like you just, you kind of have to make them undeniable. Yeah. know Yeah. It's kind of like pre-development for then the development that you go into as part of digital originals. um za And so talking about that then with digital originals, like what was the the process like of developing
Script Development Process
00:16:21
Speaker
the series? Like how many rooms, like who are the writers, um things like that?
00:16:27
Speaker
So the development process of Homebodies, you know, it was actually a real highlight for me. I really enjoyed the process. Not only did I get to create and write on and and direct on this show, which was like crazy in my brain anyway. i was like, what the hell? I got to just work with like a really excellent script team. So Charlotte Mars, who was the other writer on Homebodies, they wrote episodes three and five and they were just a dream to work with. And from the beginning, Shia just had such similar sentiments to me and really got the show. And then on top of just being like a really smart story brain, Shia was just full of ideas and solves all the time. And we became really close through the making. And i just like couldn't think of a better person to write the show with. It was also the first time I was working with another non-binary writer ever in my life. So I was like, this is really exciting.
00:17:10
Speaker
And then our scripting team was led by Kirstie Fisher, who was our script producer and one of our EPs. And working with Kirstie was just such a formative experience, like being able to learn from such a seasoned writer and such a seasoned script producer. She just like became my script mom. And she just took the show to another level. Like I'm a better writer because of Kirstie and the scripts were just instantly elevated. So I felt like the scripts were in capable hands. Like we had this really amazing team, but the scripting process was quite rigorous, like dealing with 10 minute episodes, which none of us had worked with before.
00:17:39
Speaker
It was a real masterclass in economic storytelling and pace, but the development process as a whole, really merit a very usual commissioning process. So we pitched the show. Then we got funding for the first stage of development to create the Bible and the pilot, and we got a room together.
00:17:55
Speaker
Then we got funding for the next round of development. We had more rooms. I think we had three rooms all up, but don't quote me on that because my brain's a bit foggy, but I'm pretty sure we had three rooms. I'll make that pull-out quote of this yeah episode. Yes, yes. Maybe one was a dream. i'm not too sure. um And then we, yeah. And so then we finished all the scripts and then we eventually got greenlit and it became about getting the scripts ready for shooting. Yeah.
00:18:19
Speaker
Oh, great. And so like with those scripts, so Liam um from Mad Ones, who you were talking about before, was on a previous episode of this podcast and he talked about how there's a challenge of writing those 10 minute episodes, but also that the series like works as a full kind of 60 minutes. So how did you approach that challenge?
Structuring Short Episodes
00:18:40
Speaker
Like I'm thinking like, did you need to be really precise about the structure? So like we need this to happen on kind of a page three, we need this to happen. Like how specific were you with that around the structuring of the episodes?
00:18:54
Speaker
The short answer is very, very specific and precise, but the long answer is much more fun. yeah So, um I mean, I learned so much from writing 10 minute episodes that I think I'll probably carry with me forever as a writer. Like it was a great lesson and learning what is vital for a story.
00:19:10
Speaker
And then anything else that's that's not vital, you can just get rid of it. Like, you know, really understanding those story dynamics. And, you know, within these 10-minute episodes, every scene needed to be at least like doing at least three things. We needed a really big hook for each episode. And then it also needed to fit into a one hour. It was like this Frankenstein of scripting. Like it was crazy. And we needed like we had to go around the world in each episode, but we maybe had 10 to 12 beats to do that.
00:19:37
Speaker
Like that's all we got. And i think how we approached the format was all of us sharing this idea of working within our means and executing well. You know, like Homebody is it's four characters, one family unit of three, and 90% of the show is set in one house and on one property. So it was about letting the emotional stakes and the supernatural stakes be the engine of the show for these six episodes.
00:20:00
Speaker
And at the end of each episode, the stakes and the emotional journey for the characters needs to go up a notch and the stakes in the supernatural journey need to go up a notch. And that was sort of our ethos. And so it wasn't going to be like 101 locations and car chases and explosions and stuff like that. That was going to get the audience hooked because we just didn't have the time and we just didn't have the budget for it. So pairing back actually really really allowed us to keep close to the heart of the story and kept us close to the relationships and allowed us to write about the important stuff, which was Darcy, Nora and Dee. That was going to be the bread and butter for the story and thankfully SBS really took to that. But it was a bit of a weird one because we sort of plotted the series and we had these, you know, I mean, Karis, you've seen the show, like there's some pretty hefty hooks at the end of these episodes and we were just not lucky. Like there was a lot of thought out process but we we sort of stitched it into one hour in the edit and it just seemed to really...
00:20:50
Speaker
flow, you know? So I think it was more like our sort of, at least my brain set was like, I think the series needs to work first and we need to make sure we're hitting all the lines and then we adjust, you know, do, it wasn't about us making a feature and then cutting it up. We were like, we still need to, this is still TV.
00:21:07
Speaker
So, um yeah, it was just, it was a lot of a lot of trial and error, a lot of very precise plotting, a lot of me, Kirstie and Shah pulling our head out on the Zoom, trying to figure out what to do But, yeah, I think working within our means was really, really important and I think that's what paid off in the scripting process. Yeah, definitely. I also think like it's quite interesting because so with shows that are released, we're sent like production notes, which have like all of the, you know, synopses and things like that, all the additional material. And I really enjoyed reading the character backgrounds because there was so much thought put into all of the kind of history and backstory of the different characters and not all of it made it onto screen explicitly where someone's like, hey, remember that thing from But in watching it, you knew the work had been done, like those characters, because they were so complex and complicated, even though some of that backstory didn't, yeah, wasn't kind of talked through in dialogue, it was still there. which just thought was quite interesting. Oh, my God, that makes me feel so happy. Like I'm sure the whole team is so proud to hear that because is complicated. Like going back home as a trans person is really complicated, you know, and trans people
00:22:24
Speaker
aren't just one thing and parents aren't just one thing and ghosts ghosts we don't even know what ghosts are so like we can sort of you know so there was ah there was a lot of it and and you saying that just reminds me of two things the first thing something that kind of said to me once that really stuck with me she said I think homebodies is about writing the best from complicated people I think it's about showing the best from complicated people and i was like that's true because it's not about heroes versus villains it's just about people and And the second thing that I always thought one of the best pieces of screenwriter advice I got is backstory, really important, but it sings the best when it's off the page.
00:22:57
Speaker
er And that was sort of our ethos in it. It was like we just don't have time to tell the backstory, nor do the audience want it yeah really, you know. So let's just let's just, it's about trusting the audience as well. We're very equipped human beings. We watch stories all the time.
00:23:11
Speaker
So that makes me feel really great that that all came across. oh great. Yeah, well, it did. It definitely did. um And the other thing I was wondering was like, You know, you have made a few short films, um both documentary and also scripted, like Billy and Jessie, and and did that help in writing those, you know, six by 10 minute episodes, or are they just totally different approaches, writing a short film versus a 10 minute episode? well You know, um there was like a lot of reasons why I wanted to make another short before Homebodies.
00:23:42
Speaker
So I got to create, you know, i got to be the creator of the show, I got to be the lead writer of the show. And then i also really wanted to direct on it. But I obviously like, you know, I've directed some stuff, but I'm probably not at the experience level where I could tackle this by myself. And so I was like, I really, I did an attachment before Homebodies and I also made Billy and Jessie. I was like, this is a good way to like get stuck back in.
00:24:00
Speaker
But I would say, i would like to say that it really helped and it did, but I think there were very different approaches for me, considering that Homebodies was a series and needed like a proper series through line. But, you know, writing directing shorts like Billy and Jesse, I did think helped just in a different way. So like it not only helped boost my confidence before getting stuck into the show, but it gave me a lot of practice and shaping character. And like similar to Homebodies, Billy and Jesse is set in one house and it's also a three-hander.
00:24:27
Speaker
And, you know, the emotional climax of that short is two characters talking in a stationary car. Like, it had very similar sentiment of letting the characters and the and the relationships take centre stage whilst keeping the audience engaged and entertained. So I thought that was really, like, similar. Like, I could, it was like a lot of transferable skills. I think different approaches, transferable skills, like setting up things quickly and character development.
00:24:48
Speaker
But I guess the difference with Homebodies is just making sure that things weren't so tied in a bow at the end. You know, we had five other episodes we needed to to throw forward to. It was just another way to tell another story and to to really help flex that muscle. And um I do want to ask you about directing, which I'll do in a minute. But just before that, um while we're kind of talking about the different approaches of of writing different formats, like how are you then finding and you're developing a ah feature film concept?
Short vs. Feature Film Writing
00:25:14
Speaker
How are you finding that in comparison? um to these other ones. yes. Oh, yes, feature films. um
00:25:22
Speaker
Look, writing a feature film is like giving birth to a baby that's too big for you. like It's like swimming in open water where riding homebodies was like being able to do laps in a public pool. It's really, really different.
00:25:34
Speaker
And I've been developing a few features and I've written two thus far. I wrote a feature film called Babyface as a part of the Untapped Initiative in 2022 and that was with Australians in Film.
00:25:44
Speaker
And I just finished a first draft of another feature called Arriving with the support of Screen Australia. And that was script edited by Matthew Cormack, who was the co-writer of the new film Jimpa and has written on, you know, The Hunting and 52 Tuesdays. And he was just an absolute awesome, awesome person, such an amazing writer. But it's such a long process.
00:26:01
Speaker
Features are marathons and they take years, you know. But what I did find, if there are any similarities, was still being really intentional and really clear. Like maybe there's a bit more artistic liberty with features, but I can still hear Kirstie Fisher in the back of my head when I'm writing a feature film that says clear through line, emotional clarity, raising stakes. Clear through line, emotional clarity, raising stakes.
00:26:24
Speaker
Like, so if I ever get overwhelmed in writing a feature, which I often do, I just come back to those three points and I take a deep breath because stories, although different formats, tend to rely on those three things.
00:26:34
Speaker
And so, ah yeah, now to talk about directing. So for Homebodies, ah Harry Lloyd came on board as a
Collaboration with Harry Lloyd
00:26:42
Speaker
set-up director. At what point did Harry join the team? And you also directed episodes of the series and you co-directed an episode with Harry. How did you collaborate together to kind of have that cohesive final product?
00:26:57
Speaker
You know, working with Harry was a dream. Like they were just one of the best experiences for me in making this show. Like almost so that I get emotional. Like I'm trying not cry right now when I think about that human being because Yeah, it was just an amazing experience. So I think around the final stage of development, Harry came on board as our set-up director for Homebodies and kind of had worked with Harry before on a short film, Dog Eats World, and they thought that that would be a really great fit. So with that, Harry became the lead director
00:27:30
Speaker
directorial voice and they were responsible for setting up the vision and the tone of the show and bringing it from the page to the screen. And then as a episodic director, I worked underneath Harry. So I directed episode two and co-directed episode five with Harry and Harry directed all the other episodes.
00:27:46
Speaker
And our collaboration started off when Harry pitched a director's vision for the show, which if anyone doesn't know what that is, it's basically like a creator and a producer will sit down and think about who could be a potentially good fit for the show. And then you go out to a selection of people and they have to create a vision of what they see the show as, as like a little pitch for themselves. That's what Harry did.
00:28:06
Speaker
And I remember reading it for the first time and just being like, oh, this person gets it. Like i was like, it can't not be Harry. And, you know, the idea of this show being led by two trans people together was just so thrilling and exciting to me.
00:28:18
Speaker
but you know, as the creator, you're sort of nervous. Like you're sort of nervous to hand over the baby, like especially when it's really personal. But I just think that's the reality of TV and it is a team sport. And we just got the jackpot with Harry because there was never a moment where Harry and i weren't making the same show.
00:28:35
Speaker
And trust was really built between us early on and our relationship was always built on kindness and transparency and respect, especially for the other person's role. But the reality was like, Harry loved the show just as much as I did. So we just formed a really tight friendship. And there was a big part of this where I was really going to learn from Harry. And I did. There was like a big kind of mentorship part of of this process. And so they really embodied that leadership role at the beginning, but they always empowered me to direct my episodes and always wanted of the best for the cast and crew. And I'm just really grateful for that mentorship and and also learning to work with a set up director because that's the real world. But it was spooky.
00:29:08
Speaker
Like by the end, we shared the same brain. Like Harry and I would be on set and we would just give each other a look and we would know what the other person's thinking. Like it was really rare and special and the reality is the show couldn't have been made without us as a duo. Like I sort of provided that seed and Harry was the person who could water that seed.
00:29:25
Speaker
So I think the process of making this sure the series felt cohesive was just about having loads of conversations early on and making sure we were on the same page and Harry and I would just talk on the phone for hours. Like house and hours and hours about the show and Harry would pitch me ideas and then I would talk to Harry about my thoughts and, you know, Harry really brought things to life and they brought things to the show that I just wouldn't have been able to. So I think it was just about making sure that we had trust and structure really, really early on. By the time that we'd shot it, by the time we got into post, we were one and the same. Like I trusted Harry to hold the baby for their episodes and Harry trusted me to hold the baby for mine.
00:30:01
Speaker
And at the end we just got to be each other's biggest cheerleaders, you know, and i think that comes through in the show a lot. But, yeah, Harry was the one who really set up that world and I just got to play in it. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's some it's really cool because I was thinking about it this morning and about the series and it's such a, like you said, such a personal ah story that it started out with this kind of core idea. And then I feel like the process of making it, it just has this, like ripple out effect. So, you know, of course in the end product, ah you know, all the people that watch it in Australia and, you know, it's going to series mania in France and, um, you know, people who might like see themselves in the, in the series or see friends or family or things like that. But like the actual act of making it as well, it goes from this personal idea where it's, it's just you,
00:30:54
Speaker
And then, you know, you you work with the team at Mad Ones, you work with Harry, you work with Charlotte, Mars, like you said, or um the lead actor, ah Luke Wiltshire, you know, other trans and non-binary or queer creatives. And everyone kind of brings all their experiences and kind of perspectives to it So, yeah, it's kind of beautiful how it it it ripples out from like one experience to many, even though it's it that core kind of started off with you.
Core Message of Homebodies
00:31:21
Speaker
Totally, totally. I completely agree. And um you don't want to do it alone. Like that's the reality. Like you don't want to do it alone. You'll cry too much. Like cried a lot, yeah you know, like I cried so much. And, um you know, and how I know that this feels like a special show after, you know, it's like I got the seed but everyone put their watering can in and now we can look at this big beautiful tree that we've built is that things have changed but the concept and the heart of Homebodies, this idea that,
00:31:48
Speaker
all past versions of ourselves make us who we are. That has been, from the moment I wrote a log line on a napkin, from the moment that I'm doing this podcast, that's never changed, you know, and that's how I know that it's been done properly because that integrity has been held intact and that's ah that's a testament to the whole team. But, um yeah, it was just an amazing, amazing process and um I couldn't have asked for a better team, yeah you know.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And, um, if you think back to, you know, the actually making the the show, um, what do you feel like were some of the biggest challenges then, you know, was it that development, was it the the casting or the actual production, the edit, like what, what was kind of the biggest challenge?
Casting and Representation Challenges
00:32:32
Speaker
Look, there were so many challenges. and and budies I think if I named all of them, we'd be like here to Christmas. Yeah, yeah. But i think I think the biggest challenge that people often think of when they think of our show is around the casting, like is around the casting of the show. Like first and foremost, i still can't believe we got to work with this cast. Like if someone told me three years ago that Claudia Carvin would be playing Nora, I just like wouldn't have believed you at all.
00:33:00
Speaker
And Claudia was just the most generous and warm human being. She just gave so much. And I just can't believe I got to work with one of Australia's most seasoned actors and that this little trans coming of age story spoke to her in the way it did. She was so passionate from the beginning and it really changed my life and changed my career, the fact that Claudia came on board. And and the way it all did, you know, with with Luke Wilshire and with Jazzy Hall and Roxy Meheby, I just like even now I'm like, well, the hell guys that's so crazy so I'm just so grateful for the cast that we got and I think it was I couldn't imagine anybody else being in the show but of course the question on everyone's mind was we have to cast a trans man and then the role of his pre-transition teen self which is very tricky as you can imagine and I remember being in the casting meetings and being like oh my god who wrote this
00:33:51
Speaker
Oh, me, great. Why did I do that? Like, you know, the weight of that decision didn't really hit me until we started casting the show. Danny Long and Ryan Madden were our casting directors and they just nailed it. They always saw the show as like a really unique and exciting challenge and they cared so much.
00:34:08
Speaker
So much so that I think we had like 95 tapes from trans male and trans masculine talent from around the country. So anybody who says that there aren't enough trans people in the industry You're wrong because there was 95 Darcis out there that could have made which was amazing. But then once we saw Luke, you know, we were just really captivated and we just we just knew he would be the perfect Darcy.
00:34:29
Speaker
So then it became about trying to find someone who looks enough like Luke, who could play his teen self in another time, who hasn't discovered their transness.
00:34:40
Speaker
And so of course, Danny and Ryan went out and like searched far and wide to find our D and you know, we were considering a bunch of options. And then I still remember the day that I watched the callback between Luke and Jazzy. And seeing their two faces popping up side by side on the Zoom. And I was like, oh, my God.
00:34:59
Speaker
And Harry was like, oh, my God. We were all like, oh, my God. Like our whole team was just so shocked at how uncanny their resemblance was. Yeah. It wasn't just in the looks. It was in the energy. It was in the mannerisms. It was in the voice. Yeah.
00:35:11
Speaker
I think the first thing Luke said to Jazzy was, whoa, you really look like my sister. Whoa, whoa, whoa. And for anyone who watches the series, Jazzy Hall is just an exceptional performer. She was just so undeniable from the moment we met her. We just knew she was our D. Not only does she have to play a teenage girl, she has to play a poltergeist.
00:35:31
Speaker
And she just nailed it from the beginning. We were like... We want her. And then once we saw the chemistry between Jazzy and Luke, we were like, that's it. That's Darcy and Dee. Like it was this really sort of fateful moment. It also came from a lot of hard work from Danny and Ryan too, but I just don't think we could have got a better pairing. And then on top of that, they really do look like they could be Claudia Carvin's children. yeah Like one one real, one ghost. Like it was like seeing them all sit around that table in the kitchen. I was like, oh, this is a real family.
00:35:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it is like when you're watching it, you're kind of like, how do, yeah, they have the same mannerisms. Yeah. It's quite believable to think like, oh, this is the same person, but years apart.
00:36:14
Speaker
quite wild It was, yeah, just like even this, like their face shape and the nose and like even came down to like, if these characters were real and, you know, real and walking about in life, if Jazzy was to take testosterone, that's how she would look. Like it was like one of those crazy moments where it was just like, i don't even know how to say It was just, it was real, real lucky. and And Danny and Ryan just like turned every stone over until they found the perfect casting. that it was a real It was a real tribute to them because they, They said they would find RC&D and they did it. They totally did, yeah. And I suppose ah just before we get to pay it forward, I just wanted to ask a general advice question if you have any advice for people listening.
Advice for Creators
00:36:58
Speaker
I just feel like I'm not equipped to give advice. Like, I mean, I am, but like I'm not, I am, but I'm not. I feel like something that I've learned in the last couple of years, whether you're a creator, whether you're a writer, whether you're a director, if you're in those spaces and we all know how bloody hard it is out here.
00:37:17
Speaker
But I think one of the things that has been stuck in my mind, like if I think about, you know, anyone who maybe wants to make a digital original is like trying to get to that benchmark. is that I think progress is momentum over masterpieces.
00:37:31
Speaker
I think you're probably going to get more, if you're writer director, I think you're going to get more out of making like two short films in a year than trying to sit down and perfect that perfect feature script. Just keep making, like just keep making and you miss, actually there is a piece of advice that my film lecturer gave to me back in film school, Mr. Michael McMahon, if he's listening out there.
00:37:55
Speaker
He said to me, he goes, AP, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. So why not just shoot for it? And it's true. Every initiative, everything that comes out that I'm eligible for, what I apply for it because you just never know.
00:38:08
Speaker
So I think that's my advice is like obviously we all have to keep going, but don't get stuck in the perfectionism of it because that's what people that's what people are drawn to. People want to work with people who are making stuff.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. Which then brings us to the final segment, Pay
Career Mistakes and New Guest Question
00:38:22
Speaker
It Forward segment. so ah this is the part where I ask you a question from previous guests and then you come up with a question for the next guest. So our previous guest was writer-director Hannah Lehman.
00:38:36
Speaker
And Hannah said... i think in the spirit of honesty and in the spirit of, like, everything that I've been talking about, I think I would love to know... What is the worst mistake you ever made in your career and how did you move through it? Oh, my God.
00:38:54
Speaker
Oh, my God. the worst mistake? I fear I haven't got to it yet, but worst mistake. There actually is one mistake that I really made on homebodies that was really bad. And I'm going to, I don't know if this is going to really out myself, but whatever.
00:39:09
Speaker
Okay, so obviously I was learning a lot in the directorial space and I was sort of given the opportunity to direct some of the second unit stuff. And there was one the one shot that I had to get and I really stuffed it up because I didn't realise there was a catering truck in the background on one of the shots. This feels like the coffee cup in Game of Thrones.
00:39:26
Speaker
Yeah, it was it was a coffee cup in Game of Thrones moment. It was my fault. It was so my fault and i didn't say anything early enough and we had already moved on and so we had to reschedule and get this shot again. And I felt awful. i felt awful because this this the schedule is already as tight as it is. I don't know if that's the biggest mistake, but it's the mistake that like I go to bed thinking of at night and I'm like, oh, my God, why did I do that, you know? But I got through it because I had a really great team around me who I can learn a lot from and who forgave me. um And now when you look at the shot, you're like, oh, look how beautiful it is. i do I do. I'm like, oh, they had to do that because of me. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Well, um ah that brings to the end of the chat. um But thank you so much again for joining me on the podcast and congratulations on Homebodies. Everyone go watch it, stream it on SBS On Demand now. And yeah, thanks again.
00:40:19
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. I've had a great time.
00:40:24
Speaker
That was AP Pobjoy a huge thanks to them for joining me on the podcast. This episode was produced and edited by myself with logo design by Shara Parsons and music by Seb Sabotaj-Gavrilovic.
00:40:36
Speaker
If you enjoyed listening, please hit that subscribe button and leave us a review. See you in a fortnight.