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Christopher Kam: developing television in Australia
89 Plays4 days ago
On the latest episode of Breaking Screen is Christopher Kam, the Head of Development at Typecast and a freelance story producer through his label Kameo Scripted.
Christopher has more than 15 years of experience in the film and television industry, working in both Australia and the UK. Throughout the podcast, he talks about the differences between developing television in Australia compared to overseas; tips on how to give and receive notes; what he’s looking for the first time he reads a script; how to know when a project is market-ready; and much more.
Christopher was a Development Producer at BBC Studios ANZ where he developed Ghosts Australia which was greenlit at Paramount+, and while working in London for nine years, he was Head of Development at Eleventh Hour Films, and Director of Scripted Development at NBCUniversal International Studios, where he was the executive across the first season of Amazon series HANNA and both seasons of the BBC series The Capture. He also script edited the BBC series The Long Song, and started out working in production in Australia on ABC series Glitch season 1 and ABC series Nowhere Boys Season 2, as well as the feature film Cut Snake.
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Transcript
Introduction to Breaking Screen Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to Breaking Screen, a podcast about the Australian screen industry and the creative people within it. I'm your host, Caris Bizzaca and I'm recording this podcast from the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, where I'm very grateful to be a visitor and be able to work on these lands. Always was, always will be.
Guest Introduction: Christopher Cam's Background
00:00:21
Speaker
Joining me on today's episode is Christopher Kam the Head of Development at Typecast and a freelance story producer through his company Kameo Scripted. Christopher has more than 15 years of experience in the international film and television industry, working in both Australia and the yeah UK.
00:00:38
Speaker
While a development producer at BBC Studios ANZ, Christopher developed Ghosts Australia, which was greenlit at Paramount+. plus And while working in London for nine years, he was head of development at Eleventh Hour Films and director of scripted development at NBC Universal International Studios, where he was the executive across the first season and and of Amazon series Hanna and both seasons of the BBC series The Capture.
00:01:03
Speaker
He also script edited the BBC series The Long Song and started out working in production in Australia on ABC series Glitch season 1 and Nowhere Boys season 2 as well as the feature film Cut Snake.
TV Development: Australia vs UK
00:01:17
Speaker
Throughout the podcast, Christopher talks about the differences between developing television in Australia and the yeah UK, how he works with writers, producers and broadcasters to develop an idea, tips on how to give and receive notes, what he's looking for the first time he reads a script, how to know when a project is market ready and much, much more.
00:01:38
Speaker
Here's that chat.
00:01:42
Speaker
We always start the podcast the same way, talking about inciting incidents. Can you tell me what was the inciting incident for your career? Yeah, I have a think about this and um I actually have to kind of go against the grain a bit. And I actually have to say, I don't think it was an inciting incident for me. I wasn't bitten by like a radioactive television spider
00:02:06
Speaker
For me, it was just growing up with a love of TV and film. I always joke that like we were immigrants coming to Australia. My siblings were all older than me. So they all went out and made friends. i was stuck in front of the TV making friends with Aladdin and you know all the Disney kids. And then I grew older and became a big fan of Buffy and you know my life changed.
00:02:26
Speaker
But again, I didn't know how to get into TV. I didn't know what that
Christopher's Career Journey
00:02:30
Speaker
was. So for me, it was never in the sense of like, oh, I need to get to TV. I just kind of had a real passion for it. And then I was forced because I have strict Asian parents to do a business degree. So I have a business degree. And then you know in my 20s, I got a job in a city council and It was a steady job, but it wasn't quite for me. So I think for me, like the turning point for me was essentially the sense of like, I want to try this television career out.
00:02:54
Speaker
let's see how I go. I have a degree. I can always fall back on that and just try it out. So it was more the sense of like, just kind of being like a bit frustrated in the sense of the life I was living. wasn't the one I really wanted to do. So just pursuing that. And, you know, from there I got internships, I made short films, I made a web series and kind of got my foot into the and industry. It took about two years, but yeah, it got me a self-in.
00:03:17
Speaker
Oh, okay. And um so what was your first kind of role within the industry, do you think? So I interned for free for a while whilst working part time, just I could make ends meet. But my first official role in the TV industry was working at the First Australian Completion Guarantor. For Corrie Soeterboek was the assistant there. um So I did about a year and a half to two years there. And um ah for people who don't know what a completion guarantor is, it's When a film, TV show or a documentary gets funding from investors, ah sometimes they need to make sure that the project will be completed on time and on budget. So they're required to hire a completion guarantor. And that was FACG Yeah, so I i joined that. I learned a lot from that role in the sense of learning everything from financing to delivery. But yeah, that was a really great start for me and foundationally just learning production and getting to know all the producers in Australia.
00:04:12
Speaker
o Before we get into your kind of moving overseas and things like that, can you tell me what is your role now and what does that involve?
Role at Typecast and Freelance Work
00:04:24
Speaker
Yeah, so I am the head of development at Typecast and I am also a freelance story producer through my own label Kameo Scripted. And what that means at Typecast, it's Tony Briggs' production company. He created the Sapphires. I oversee the Scripted Slate.
00:04:40
Speaker
um We're developing bunch of great projects and actually going to production on a project later this year. And then on the freelancing side of things, I started produce, which means essentially production companies, broadcasters, funding bodies hire me to work with producers and writers to develop their script, where it be a TV show or film, sometimes online, to get it to a point where they need to be, where it'd be greenlit or if it's already in production, getting the drafts polished and amendments changed. So that's kind of my day to day. And if you had to say what I do, you know, a typecast as a head development, I'm also an executive producer on a few other projects. I'll go ahead.
00:05:19
Speaker
But essentially a creative producer would be the all encompassing word, which is, is more of a thing in the UK than it is in Australia, because in the UK, I lived and worked there for nine years.
00:05:30
Speaker
There's a whole script department and you kind of come up the ranks when once you script edited, you start producing, then become an executive producer. And a lot of commissioning editors, a lot of people who run companies go through that pathway. Whereas in Australia, a lot of script editors become writers and stay writers. So creative producers are a bit different thing in Australia. So that's kind of, if I had to tell you what I do,
00:05:49
Speaker
That's me in a nutshell in Australia. Great. And so, yeah, you, you began your career in the screen industry in Australia before moving overseas.
International Experience in the UK
00:05:59
Speaker
So what then prompted that move?
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, um I was in Australia doing production for about five years. So after Corrie I worked at Matchbox. I was Tony Ayer's assistant and the team coordinator before jumping onto production, you know, jumped on some Matchbox shows, Glitch, Cut Snake.
00:06:15
Speaker
But then after about five years and doing it Australia, my, I joke, it's the biological clock ticking. um You know, I was just about to hit my thirties and back then you could do a two year working visa to the UK. And for me, I just always knew I wanted to try moving overseas. So, you know, I finished a production and then kind of packed my bags, went to London with no job, no prospects, and then kind of tried my best gung-ho. And I was fortunate enough to kind of, I started off in a media agency just doing production managing there because I was qualified to do that.
00:06:47
Speaker
But then because NBC was connected to matchbox Obviously, the last few weeks has just finished up. But, um yeah, I was able to kind of meet people at NBC and I went for a job there and, you know, I was successful. And i that was kind of my first role into the UK.
00:07:03
Speaker
And what do you think are the um biggest differences that you noticed about development overseas? Yeah, so I was in the UK for about nine years and I developed a lot of different things. Coming back to Australia, I've only been back since 2023. And I'll say I think the biggest difference as a story producer, as a creative EP, is very much the sense that in the UK, you have a bit more time and you have more resources to kind of really figure out what you're trying to do. In Australia, a lot of the times you're restricted to just
00:07:35
Speaker
doing one writer's room, getting a script, getting a Bible out, and going from there. In the UK, because a lot of projects are quite authored, you'll notice that a lot of six-part shows are usually written by one, maybe two or three people. That's because that writer's kind of been developing it with a script editor or a story producer EP exec.
00:07:54
Speaker
for a few years so that's kind of what i would say in the sense of in the uk you're given a bit more time just to really figure out what you're trying to make was in australia don't get me wrong there are a lot of projects that still get the time of day you know more investments ah put into them so they can go through numerous drafts numerous development processes but for the bulk if i had to just make it reductive that would be the main difference i would say Yeah, yeah. And how do you think that, yeah, working overseas in that kind of model, like impacted you then as a ah TV executive, particularly like coming back to Australia?
00:08:30
Speaker
I think in the UK, you have more people who go through a script department in the sense of, so in Australia, I'm a non-writing critic. whereas a lot of producers in Australia, if you're going to be a development person, usually you have to write. majority of the time you kind of get your first way in through script editing, writing a TV, an episode of something, and then kind of being able to become a creative producer. In the UK, writing and creative producing are two separate things. A script editor in the UK shouldn't really, he isn't really allowed to write because again, it's very authored. It's very personal to the writer. So it's very much the sense of
00:09:08
Speaker
you've got the script department to really support the writer to kind of get to where they need to be. so that's kind of where I came through in the sense of I script edited, I development exec without ever actually writing a script. You know, I tried, you know, don't get me wrong. I tried to write a few scripts. It wasn't really for me. So I think for me, in the sense of like coming back here, a big part of what I've,
00:09:28
Speaker
really lent is what I do as a creative executive is to support writers and to make sure we're delivering the show that the writer wants, but also what the broadcaster or the distributor are paying for. And in Australia, I feel like The writers given a lot of responsibility kind of figure out the creative and the producers are very much business side of things. Again, because there's so few writers who are producers at the same time, and they're usually showrunners at that level. If you can write and produce, you're Tony Ayres or a showrunner level. So I think that's the kind of difference in the sense of coming back to Australia. For me, learning the business producing side of it, but also still being in the creative side of it, where I've made shows from the ground up with a writer, but not actually writing. That's really shaped how I am as an executive, I guess.
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm wondering, like, are any writers surprised then that um you're approaching it purely from a structural and from a story kind of point of view rather than like writing it yourself?
Collaboration and Creative Process
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah, like I was always trained um to never tell a writer what to write. um You know, how I give notes is a very specific way in the sense of I ask a lot of questions. Sometimes they're annoying. Sometimes people get offended or something. But it's more to really drill down what they're trying to do. You know, I've had a really good reception with the writers I work with and the producers on the other side, because um what I've learned to do coming from the UK is speak both languages in the sense of you'll get a note from the producer that you need to cut five locations or cut the scene down or get rid of this character. But then, you know, I'll be able to ask the producer, okay, what's actually the issue there? you know Is it something from the broadcaster? Is it a budgetary reason? And then from there, I'll be able to then talk to the writer and translate that a bit more creative, like in a way that the writer will be able to really adapt it.
00:11:26
Speaker
Because it's one thing to say to a writer, just fix it. you know and We need to cut 20 grand off the budget. Or it's different to say like, all right, okay, this day of production, there's going to be too many extras. how can what can we do to reduce them? more, you know, COVID happened, right? How can you write a character out of the scene or can you replace that location? And don't get lot of writers do that. A lot of people can, but that's kind of my, like when I've come back to Australia, what I've really been able to do.
00:11:56
Speaker
The way I'll say it is because I'm never going to say to a writer, I'm going to write over you. And I'm not saying other writers do do say that or any anything like that. just, I feel like because there is no pretense that I'm never going to do anything to put my voice in there. Yeah. The, the felt quite like it's a collaborative experience.
00:12:16
Speaker
And I suppose like expanding on that. Yeah. Could you, could you talk a bit more about how you work with, you know, the writers, the producers, but then also like stakeholders to develop projects because, you know, you say in order for them to meet those like creative needs, but also the commercial needs and that balance. Yeah.
00:12:36
Speaker
Yeah. i I always just ask everyone the same kind of questions. It's like, what do you want? yeah and It's a simple question that I don't think gets answered clearly enough and so surprised at how hard it is. And I'm still figuring out too. It's really hard to actually articulate what you're trying to say a lot the time. you know There's the joke of the note within the note constantly when like i give notes and still I'm trying to figure it out. Producers give notes, broadcasters give notes.
00:13:02
Speaker
So you know i kind of take it as kind of the exact role in the sense of managing stakeholders, you have to figure out what each person wants and then make sure that they know that they're going to get a version of that.
00:13:15
Speaker
And my favorite time is when we surprise people and give them something different, but better and that they really love. I always start from the top down per se. So, you know, with the broadcasters on a TV show, they need something that will hit that slot for their audience.
00:13:30
Speaker
And if it's not catering, like where the characters who speak, it a certain demographic, an age demographic, or for female audience, it's more female-led stories, you know making sure that that's gripped what we're working on can really cater for them. But then with a producer, you have everything from budgetary restraints to time, making sure you get a project delivered on time. But then when you go down to the stakeholder, the writer, you actually just have to ask, what story do you want to tell? And do these...
00:14:01
Speaker
parameters that the broadcaster, the producers are giving, can they work in this field? In the sense of, again, if it's more female-led and you have the above Lancaster or male, is this actually going to work for this broadcaster? And if you had to figure out a way to, and if it's already been in development funding and green-led, you kind of have to make it work because there's no other way. Yeah. So for me, again, it's just, I have a lot of meetings.
00:14:24
Speaker
I have a lot of conversations, but then for me, it's always making sure we have outcomes that can push the project forward and just creatively and on a producer level, just making sure that, you know, it's game time.
00:14:36
Speaker
And you've mentioned notes um a couple of times. So I just wanted to ask about the notes process. If you have any advice for people giving or receiving notes.
00:14:50
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think let's use an example. Say you're a writer and you've just sent me a romantic comedy drama, six by half hour. i usually try to make sure i read it several times. The first time I read it, just to really see if I enjoyed it, really figure out how I felt about it and think about what the story is or what you're trying to do. The second time I'll kind of break it down and the third time just make sure I didn't miss anything on the first few reads.
00:15:17
Speaker
When I kind of give notes back to you, I'll really start with just how I interpreted it. If you've sent me a romantic comedy and I didn't root for the characters, you know, I can say like, well, there's some really great stuff here in the sense of, you know, there's some really great moments where you do feel their connection. But I think as you go forward, I would really, I really wanted to root for this couple to get back together. Mm-hmm.
00:15:43
Speaker
And it's how you phrase it I try my best not to phrase it as it's not working. I like the most, ah you know, the the easiest way to kill something is just by saying, what's wrong with it? Because anyone can say anyone can pick up a script and say there's a million things wrong with it. The skill of giving notes is being able to Tell the people how they felt about something, what they interpreted it it as, because what someone thinks they're putting on the page may not be received by the reader. So what I try to do is first and foremost establish, this is what I've taken out of your scripts.
00:16:14
Speaker
But then I try to go, but this is what I understand you're trying to do. You wrote a rom-com that Julia Roberts and Hugh Grant back in the day want to fall in love.
00:16:25
Speaker
But when I read it, i felt like Julia Roberts, didn't want this man and that's not coming across so if that's what you're trying to get to in your next draft make the audience really root for these characters this is where we'll start this is how i think we'll go through it and then i kind of break it down and there's lots of different ways you know talk about the characters talk about thematics talk about the plots and just how the structure you know go through everything but also just the motivations of the characters a lot of the time
00:16:56
Speaker
people put in plot without actually thinking about what that means for characters. So really breaking it down. So a lot of the time when I give notes, I kind of think about what is going to be actually the most helpful because you can't go through every single aspect of a script, can't go through every page giving notes. I always try to start bigger because a lot of the bigger notes, are for example, thinking about what does this character actually want in this episode, right?
00:17:18
Speaker
That will help change a lot of the minutia. And I always say, kill your darlings. This is the biggest note I can give to everyone in the sense of if it's great, it'll come back in another iteration, but let's try to figure out the best way forward. So a big part of giving notes to kind of could go back to the original question is I try to get on everyone like the writer side.
00:17:37
Speaker
Like I'm not the enemy. I'm not saying that you have to change it because it's not good I'm trying to actually say, this is what I'm understanding you're trying to do. This is when I read it, what I'm interpreting it it as How can we get this version closer to where you want to get it to? And it's the same when I get broadcaster notes or producer notes. This is what the writer is currently doing. Again, they might be writing a rom-com, but it needs to be higher stakes for the broadcaster. How can we make it higher stakes? If this couple break up, do they lose a kid in the process? Is that the right story to tell? Is that the way it's being told the best way? So that's kind of my approach in the sense of
00:18:18
Speaker
Making sure that it's trying to not be personal, trying to not be like, because never telling a writer that they're a bad writer because bad is subjective also. um You know, just trying to really get on their side. And this is what the outcome is. Like we want to get to, how can we get there? And then make recommendations, make or give offers on how we can get there.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, you know, you talked about ah like reading something for the first time. I'm wondering, like, when you're doing that first read analysis of a project, what are um the key ingredients that you're looking for or that you immediately sense are missing when you're doing that?
Script Development: Emotions and Characters
00:19:00
Speaker
I'm going to steal Tony Ayers' one. ah Tony always said people watch or consume content to feel something. You know, you watch a horror movie to get scared. You watch a thriller to be excited. you watch a rom-com to laugh or feel romantic.
00:19:14
Speaker
If I read a script and I don't really feel... anything from it, that's a telltale sign of, okay, something's not working. So then I go back and think about it. Again, what was the emotion that this writer is trying to put in this script? if Are they writing a thriller? Then if they're writing a thriller, what are the stakes? What does this person have to lose? will they Is it a fear of death? Is it a financial fear? If those stakes aren't there at the start, then that's something we have to really look at and address. And it usually comes, I always say, it's like inviting people
00:19:45
Speaker
the reader into the world of these characters. Understanding what the characters wants and needs are is a great way to start. So that way you can go on a journey and a ride with these characters. So I always kind of go back to what the character wants and what's the truth of the character as a kind of first initial step in the read.
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah. And I feel like when you know what the character wants and needs, then you can figure out how to put them under pressure. And that leads to plot. Like there's kind of like a flow on effect of that.
00:20:12
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, um I worked on the first season at Hanna and I always remember David Farr saying Hanna just wants to be an ordinary girl. So you understand then when she is being pulled away by her father, who's kept her in a cave to protect her for so long, that that's going against her need of or want to be an ordinary girl. And then when she's being pulled by the agency to be trained as a assassin. That's not what she wants also. she She runs, so she fights against it. And by just having that Northern star, every time David delivered a script or another rug delivered the script, and they having that ethos there really just made the reading joy because I understood straight away what Hanna was doing and how the story was being unfolded. And I take that note with me on every single show. It's like, what is the character trying to do and how can we push them and how can we actually make it harder for them? Yeah. Yeah. Put them through their, their worst nightmares. Our poor characters. Yeah. um
00:21:11
Speaker
So you, you mentioned Hanna you have worked on a lot of existing IP in the past. So as well as Hanna, Ghosts, The Long Song, would you be able to just explain what IP is in a nutshell for anyone that is just unaware of what IP means.
00:21:27
Speaker
IP is intellectual property. So existing IP, so existing projects that already have either source material. And that can be a book, that could be an old TV show, that could be a news article that you're optioning, that could be someone's life story. yeah So it's just source material, a piece of intellectual property that you can then develop for a new format.
00:21:53
Speaker
And can you talk through how you approach developing existing IP? Yeah. Whenever you look at a book or a format like Ghosts as a format, Hannah was a feature film, I always start with a sense of why does it need to exist again?
00:22:08
Speaker
Why does it need to be made in a new way? And can you find a new way in? Because no Ghosts they already had an American and a British version. So how are we going to go find the Australia way in? Hanna it was a feature film.
00:22:20
Speaker
Why are we telling a bigger story? And a lot of the time it does come from the writers because David Farr and on Hanna had a real vision for that. But when thinking about a book adaptation, you know, we option a book or something, thinking about how it'll play on screen and what the viewer will get out of it. And I always think about what were the best parts of the original pieces of IP?
00:22:42
Speaker
What can we keep that will make viewers kind of come back and watch it for that reason? Was it the nostalgia? Was it the thrill? But then what's the surprise? That's the thing I always look for. What's something we haven't seen yet in this iteration that we want viewers to see? So that's kind of the best way I would, I actually approach working with IP.
00:23:04
Speaker
Book to screen is always the easiest because you want to give the audience the same kind of enjoyment they got or satisfaction they got from reading that book when you watch it on screen. So so that's kind of the the first foremost point. And then there's like user development that you have to just go through before you actually make it good. yeah It's so funny. Like people talk about development just as like this one word, but then it really is, you know, years and months and so much goes into it. Yeah. It's that. And it's trial and error because, you know, you'll never get it right on the first go. You know, you'll you'll do multiple drafts on it.
00:23:39
Speaker
And that's okay. I think the the biggest thing I always have to tell my writers is it's a first draft. Like when I get a first draft and they haven't quite got it that, you know, some take notes personally, some take like it disappointed personally, if like it's not received that well, but it's a process. And that's the biggest feedback I kind of have to, I give newer writers specifically because, you know, seasoned writers understand the right upstairs, emerging writers. know, I think there is a misconception that people just think I'm going to write it and that's what's going to end up on TV. You know, and until you actually make hours or like make some television or make a project and actually see it come to fruition, there's so many reasons why it will change, whether it be budgetary reasons or creative reasons. Yeah. And um okay, so with development, can we talk through some of the key development materials, you know, every project
Pitching and Market Readiness
00:24:30
Speaker
should have? So I'm thinking like logline, pitch deck, what to you are those like key materials?
00:24:37
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, like the standard stuff, when you think about a pitch deck, when you take to market, you obviously need the logline synopsis, what the series is about. It's always great to have a creative statement from the writer.
00:24:51
Speaker
and Yeah, it is in a sense of thinking about those creative documents. I always go back to, again, what what is it for? A pitch deck is to try to get money. Like it's it's as simple as that. So what is in this pitch deck that will draw the attention of a broadcaster or a funding body? If it's to a broadcaster, again, is it hitting that broadcaster's demographic? You know, ABC's demographic, i believe, is older. So is it like, can you show in this pitch document that this broadcaster project is going to hit that demographic of an older audience. If no, redo it, like figure it out, figure it out or develop it in a way that would fit that broadcaster.
00:25:30
Speaker
So yeah. so thinking about all those key things you just talked about, like characters, art you can find all this stuff better online, I'm sure. But for me, it's when you actually write it, is the content actually serving the purpose that it's meant for is the bigger thing I have to kind of say.
00:25:46
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. And, you know, pitch decks, like you said, they're used as a, as a way to get finance. When do you feel like if you're developing an idea, when is something ready to go to market?
00:26:01
Speaker
I mean, this goes back to your question and about what's the difference between the UK and Australia. A lot of the time in Australia, you run out of money. So if you've run out of money because you don't have any additional funds to kind of develop anything further, you you just kind of have to make a decision and either go to market or don't go to market or try to finance more money. And you kind of have to make a call. For me, it's you only get one shot with each project, essentially. I mean,
00:26:24
Speaker
I say this and then you know things come back around. But for me, it's the sense of, can you present this to a broadcaster, a commissioner or a distributor and get a meeting essentially is the answer I always say. It's like, is this enough for them to say, I want you to guys to come in and let's discuss it.
00:26:42
Speaker
And is it because they think that they can actually put this on their programming for a certain time slot or for distributors? and this film yeah you know the minimum guarantee sell and we can make you know get the producer offset. So if they feel that the creative is strong enough to at least do the meeting, then I say, you're close. You're close enough. You're close. But um in a dream reality, it is the sense of once you've read it, once the whole team's read it and you feel really confident that
00:27:14
Speaker
you've got a high chance of a getting a meeting, but also getting development funding or getting a green light. That's that's the dream. But unfortunately, with the time restraints, with everything, you know like there's a few litmus tests. The lower litmus test is, well, you know what I The higher litmus test is, are we confident that this package is strong enough?
00:27:32
Speaker
Many different reasons. And again, you have to go through not just the creative ideas, but like do we have a finance plan that like wood will make this work through finding different broadcasters, international research? yeah So those are kind of like my bars of thinking about when things are ready.
00:27:47
Speaker
And you talked a little bit about this buff before when we were saying how long development can be. But what do you think are some of the external factors that can impact the development of a project, particularly for those ones that kind of get stuck in this development loop?
Market Trends and Project Development
00:28:05
Speaker
I mean, timing is a big part of everything. um I was with a production company a while back where we were developing a prison show and then three prison shows just kind aired at the same time. And we were like, okay, not now. This is this is a saturated market now. Let's ah take a breath on that. And you kind of have to pause it and then the option might run out.
00:28:25
Speaker
Again, there's lots of different factors in the sense of if you are developing something and you can't finance it, that'll kill it. like you know You can't get development funding from either a funding body or the studio or commissioner. you know You have to kind of call it. There's other reasons in the sense of it. Sometimes you have to kill a project because it just the writer and the writing just isn't quite there yet. And that's okay to say also because the next time a writer presents something, they've learned from this experience, that that'll be ready. So there's a lot of external and personal factors. There's been many projects where executives change quite quickly.
00:29:00
Speaker
If you've got a project in development with an executive and they leave, that project usually dies also because you've got no one championing it. Adding onto that, there is this kind of thing of like, oh, what is the market looking for right now? And how hard is that as someone who works with projects that are in development where the market might really want something right now and so you think, oh, well, Project B is not going to work because that's a completely different genre. But in a year's time, that might be completely different and the market suddenly wants something
00:29:35
Speaker
Project B and everything that it's offering. How do you kind of juggle that idea of like, oh, what the market wants right now when you when you're dealing with development?
00:29:47
Speaker
Yeah. So as an exec, you always have to do a bunch of meetings with all the buyers, commissioners, funding bodies, distributors. Because they'll tell you what they think they want. so They'll tell you what they have slots for and stuff, but all that information, they'll be telling that same information to everyone. You can go online and find lunches with broadcasters and stuff, and they'll give you the remits. So it's always really good to know, say this to all the writers, to all the producers, to know what the broadcasters and everyone's looking for. The real thing to think about is what will be desirable in a few years.
00:30:23
Speaker
like If you can think about how audiences are changing, if it was super easy, everyone would do it and no one would care. But you know there's a few things that will never go out of fashion. like Crime is the gift that keeps on giving. It's evergreen. But it's for me, it's always a new way in. How are you going to find a new way into that crime? And it's it's just thinking about, again, it's what I said about the IP stuff. It's like, what is the surprise?
00:30:47
Speaker
What is the reason for this project to exist? Because a lot of you know old IP is being brought back, but it's finding a new way into it in the broadcaster, if you present that to the broadcaster and they're like, oh our audiences will love this new way in that's when you'll solve that.
00:31:04
Speaker
So it's it's a tricky one in the sense of it's ever-changing. I'm a true believer if you have to convince broadcasters or convince distributors what they want, because they don't, like none of us actually know. But if you can convince them that this will, at the end of the day, as reductive as I can make it I'm presenting you a script. It will make you money because there will be bums on seats.
00:31:24
Speaker
Your audience will come watch it. That is how I would say is the best way to kind of think about when you build a slate, when you develop project, can you take it out and convince a broadcaster that this is a worthwhile investment?
00:31:36
Speaker
And so that then brings us to our final segment, which is the pay it forward part.
Legacy and Industry Impact
00:31:43
Speaker
So that's where you'll be asked a question from a previous guest. And then if you can come up with a question for our next guest. So your pay it forward question, it's from Matthew Diener, the CEO of Screen Producers Australia, SPA, ah who asked. I'm really interested in. the purpose piece that sits behind some of the motivations individuals have got for being in our industry and, you know, in a career sense or in an industry sense, what is it that they want to be remembered for or having contributed to that will leave a significant imprint and what could they draw on as a purpose piece in their lives now that will deliver on that outcome?
00:32:26
Speaker
Yeah, so I think if I translate that question in my head, I feel it's about legacy. I feel it's about, again, what do I, I guess, starting with starting with what do I want to be remembered for? So for me, a big part of what I do is making sure, am I going to enjoy this experience? And will the people I work with enjoy this experience? And are we making something we can be proud of? That's kind of my litmus test when I, so I'm freelance story producing at the moment. I get offered a few jobs. I you know i take quite a few jobs also in the sense of, but I always ask myself like,
00:33:01
Speaker
am I going to enjoy this experience or is this something I can be proud of and put my name behind? so for me is something I could be, I would love to be remembered for the sense of have I actually made a difference to projects, you know, and can I hold my head up high and say, these are great projects. Like I look at my CV, I'm super proud of all the projects I've worked on. You know, Hannah, Long Song, Ghost, The Capture. So I can really say that. um So that's one thing, of a litmus thing, like,
00:33:31
Speaker
In my career, I've been asked this a lot, what am I actually the most proud of? And it's not actually a TV show I've worked on. It's actually a um program I set up. So at NBC, I set up the partnership between NBC International and Soho Theatre. And with that, we basically created a partnership that would fund the writer's lab at Soho Theatre and develop writers so that they could upskill them to write for television. And that still running today, that was a great opportunity for theater writers to kind of like learn their craft and give them opportunities to kind of get in the industry for.
00:34:05
Speaker
And for me, why that actually came about was I was kind of, I was a junior exec and I was told you need to um find all the new exciting writers like Phoebe Waller-Bridge. So I did that very simple thing and Google Phoebe Waller-Bridge and just found out where she came through. And she came through the Soho Theater, the writer's lab. So I then met with Soho Theatre and asked them what they do to kind of really support writers, how they, and they they do a lot of great things. But for me, what was really touching about it is Soho Theatre's Writer Labs is such a diverse spectrum of writers, people with disabilities, people from financial different backgrounds, socioeconomic different backgrounds, people of colour. queer people. And they were really supporting those artists and writers to really take them to next level. So when I pitched this to NBC, they loved it. So we really brought that together. And a lot of those writers have been able to really advance their careers. And that for me is just like, that's just a personal thing where I'm just like, oh, that's
00:34:57
Speaker
support a lot of people. It's not a TV show that you can watch, but that was something I'm very proud of. and that's a legacy that I'll always take with me. So for me, a big part of that is just the sense of, again, I'm going back to the original question you asked me, you know, what do I do? I ask people what they want, and then I figure out a way to get there.
00:35:17
Speaker
But at the same time, I do a thing of like, what do I want also? And I think that's something I haven't really said. Like, I want to make good projects. I want to work with good like people. I want to, at this point in my career also, I want good experiences because TV is hard. We've all done it. um So I want to make sure that I'm collaborating with great people, but also bring the next generation up.
00:35:38
Speaker
So I'm giving you a very long winded answer because I feel this question is a lot about legacy and what you're proud of and what drives you and what motivates you. And for me, again, you know i I told you my backstory of it wasn't an inciting incident. It was, I was a kid who loved tv film and I just had no idea how to get into it.
00:35:57
Speaker
So I just pushed myself and I asked myself, what do I want? I want to back then I was like, I want to be a director. I don't know what that is, but I want to do it. So I, figured out ways where I could do that.
00:36:08
Speaker
And now that I've been in this career long enough, I look around and say, okay, what do I want? What do I want to help people do? What does these writers want do What does producers want to do? And then from there, the life lesson I've taken is asking those questions, thinking about it, giving offers and just trying new things. And that I think is what I do in development in the scripted world, but also in just as a producer, you've got to keep trying things. There's no one way to produce something. And if you fail to keep doing it, don't take it personally. Cause you know, we all have a lot of um ups and downs. So that would be my answer to that question.
00:36:43
Speaker
And I suppose, ah that's pretty much all my questions, but I do usually ask people, I feel like your whole chat has been advice, but I do often ask people an advice question, like a general advice question.
Advice for Industry Professionals
00:36:56
Speaker
If you can think of like a key piece of advice to tell anyone listening, does anything come to mind?
00:37:01
Speaker
ah Let me see. I learned at a young age to work smart, not hard. I mean, I still work very hard, but it's really understanding where to focus your time and energy on. We all know with how busy our lives are that you could just be, and especially in television, you could be writing for hours. You could be producing for hours.
00:37:21
Speaker
but It's really focusing on that. So that would be the key advice and finding people you can collaborate with. Mm-hmm. Those two things have really got me far in life in the sense of, again, I ask lot of questions, I'm strategic, and then I go forward.
00:37:35
Speaker
But I also know my capabilities. I don't want to be a line producer and I don't want to you know be a head production. I've always worked with really smart people, really great head of productions.
00:37:46
Speaker
So if if you can find those people that complement what you do and you can collaborate with, that'll get me far because as you kind of come up, they'll go up with you. And the more you enjoy doing the process with each other, the more you'll keep doing it.
00:38:01
Speaker
Burnout happens when you hate it, when you're not getting satisfied from it. Right. And yeah, so that's my piece of advice. be strategic, work smart and try to find your people.
00:38:14
Speaker
Yeah, great. Okay, well, we'll leave it there. But thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today and talking to me all about development. Thanks so much, Paris. It's been great.
00:38:26
Speaker
That was Christopher Kam and a huge thanks to him for joining me on the podcast. This episode was produced and edited by myself with logo designed by Shara Parsons and music by Seb Sebotaj-Gavrilovic. If you enjoyed listening, please hit that subscribe button and leave us a review.
00:38:42
Speaker
See you in a fortnight.