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Lily Canter and Emma Wilkinson | Ultra Women
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In this episode of the UKRunChat podcast, we’re joined by Lily Canter and Emma Wilkinson, the authors of Ultra Women, a powerful book that shines a light on the untold stories of women in endurance sport..
We explore the inspiration behind the book, the process of gathering and curating such raw and personal narratives, and what these stories reveal about identity, resilience, and representation for women.
From elite athletes to everyday heroes, Ultra Women isn’t just about running, it’s about freedom, resilience, and mental strength. Lily and Emma reflect on what they learned through writing these untold stories, how the sport is changing, and what still needs to happen to create truly inclusive spaces in ultrarunning.
Find the Ultra Women book here:
Follow Lily on Instagram
Follow Emma on Instagram
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Transcript
Introduction to UK Run Chat and Guests
00:00:00
UKRunChat
Welcome to the UK Run Chat podcast. I'm Michelle and today we're discussing endurance through the lens of women and stories that have too often gone untold. My guests today are Lily Cantor and Emma Wilkinson, both journalists, both ultra runners and now co-authors of Ultra Women, the Trailblazers divide Defying Sexism in Sport.
Book Themes: Representation and Equity in Endurance Sports
00:00:23
UKRunChat
So this book isn't just about ultra running, it tackles the deeper themes of representation and equity endurance sport. Welcome both of you. How are you?
00:00:33
Lily Canter
Good, yeah, bit bit frazzled, but good.
00:00:37
UKRunChat
so what we're we well into the launch now. How's it all been going?
00:00:42
Emma
yeah really really really well last week was a very hectic week we had two book launches um which you know were really positive we had lots of um people show up wanting signed copies and then we were doing sort of lots of social media around the book and we've been having a lot a lot of kind of overwhelming and lovely feedback as well so um yeah things have been quite busy I would say
00:01:11
UKRunChat
Yeah, I'm glad it's going well. Talk talk us through some of that feedback then, because I wanted to pull
Gender Bias in Publishing and Reader Reception
00:01:15
UKRunChat
out a point. When I when i spoke to you last week, actually, um you you made a comment that um one of the the publishers had told you that and men would not read this book and women don't buy running books, which kind of shocked me a little bit.
00:01:31
UKRunChat
and So, yeah, talk to me a bit about that and what the reaction's been so far.
00:01:32
Lily Canter
Yeah.
00:01:35
Lily Canter
Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, some of the early discussions we had with publishers were that the the running book market is very much geared towards men, and they know that men will buy a lot of running books.
00:01:48
Lily Canter
um So it was almost like they don't want to kind of tap into a ah bigger market. um So there was a bit of resistance. um And it took us a while to find a publisher that that was really behind the book. And it's not just running, like you say, it covers a variety of endurance sports.
00:02:07
Lily Canter
But yeah, the feedback's been really great. And what's been lovely to see is there's a lot of men that are reading this book and their reaction's been extremely positive. um You know, they don't feel under attack or anything like that. It's very much, know, I'm learning a huge amount.
00:02:23
Lily Canter
about the history of women's endurance and being able to see it from a different perspective, which I think has been really eye opening as well.
Highlighting Women's Achievements in Endurance Sports
00:02:32
Lily Canter
um So yeah, it's been really positive so far and it's been really good that we're reaching kind of broad audiences of men and women.
00:02:43
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's great ah because it it's not an attack on men at all, is it? It's a celebration of of women getting into endurance sport and and doing really well.
00:02:52
Lily Canter
Yeah, absolutely. i mean, we do talk about how there is a male lens in sport, particularly from um the sort of media commentary perspective and also the way that races are designed.
00:03:07
Lily Canter
um But like you say, it's mostly a sort of celebration of women and an understanding of ah why women are particularly good at sort of very long distances.
00:03:19
Emma
Yeah, absolutely.
00:03:19
UKRunChat
So how, oh sorry Emma, go on.
00:03:22
Emma
Well, no, I was just going to say, i think, and yeah, I think it's just looking at it instead of just looking at it through that male lens, looking at it from a different perspective, because even through writing the book, it really opened our eyes, I think. Once you start seeing that kind of sexism, you see it everywhere all the time, where perhaps you didn't notice because you'd just been used to a certain perhaps status quo.
00:03:49
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's interesting. So just just give us an overview of the book. How would you describe it describe it for people who haven't read it yet?
00:03:57
Lily Canter
Yeah, it's quite tricky to describe because it covers so many different things. um But it is, like we said, it's a celebration of women and ultra endurance sport.
00:04:11
Lily Canter
It digs into the history of women and how they've been competing and taking on challenges for ah hundreds of years. It's very much filled with those kind of untold stories of female endurance.
00:04:26
Lily Canter
um But then there's this thread throughout that looks at the sort of physiology and the psychology of women um why their bodies and minds are particularly adept at kind of keeping going and enduring.
00:04:40
Lily Canter
And then really it's kind of a call to action as well, like Emma says, to kind challenge the status quo and increase female participation
Underrepresentation and Strong Performances of Women in Ultra Events
00:04:50
Lily Canter
because it is so low in in these kind of more extreme sports.
00:04:56
Lily Canter
um And yet there's no reason why women can't you know physically and mentally do these kind of challenges.
00:05:04
UKRunChat
Yeah, women have been attempting endurance kind of races for a very long time, haven't they? They've just not been written about.
00:05:14
Emma
Yeah, exactly. So, you know, people who are interested in running have probably heard of Jasmine Paris and her achievements and her spine race record. and But I think what we're trying to show in the book is that there are lots of women throughout history who've won races outright, broken records, done firsts, kind of challenges that no one else has done before across all these different sports.
00:05:41
Emma
and And it's just that those stories haven't been told or they've been told in very kind of niche places. It's not kind of mainstream knowledge. And we just really wanted to to bring that all together to tell, i to kind of create this narrative through these stories of, you know, the amazing achievements that they'd done.
00:06:05
UKRunChat
So what sparked the idea for the book then? Was there a particular moment or person that made you realize that this book needed to be written?
00:06:14
Lily Canter
Yeah, it was kind of an organic process, I think, through our own experience of doing ultras and really noticing that there weren't many women there at all.
00:06:25
Lily Canter
um It's kind of one of the first things you notice when you rock up, even to a small event. You know, and there might be like 10 women and then there's like 50 blokes. um And so it just kind of got us thinking like, why is this that there were so few women? And would also notice like the really long events, like we did a two day, like 100K event and we were picking off the men on the second day and they were, know, we were getting a lot of comments from the men about, you know, God, you girls can keep going, can't you? And, you know, I'm destroyed all rest it.
00:07:03
Lily Canter
um And so I think we started to feel like there was something in
Expanding the Book's Scope Beyond Ultrarunning
00:07:07
Lily Canter
this. There was kind of this dual narrative here of like, there aren't many women here, but the women that are here performing really strongly.
00:07:15
Lily Canter
um And so we kind of wanted to dig into that, but it it kind of evolved over time through working with the publisher to this sort of round story about all sports.
00:07:31
Lily Canter
because actually we know more about ultra running than we do about, you know, long distance cycling or long distance open water swimming or multi-day events, adventure racing. There's actually loads of fascinating stuff going on all the time.
00:07:48
Lily Canter
um So once we broadened it out beyond running, ah think it really kind of, and yeah, it cemented for us as this, um you know, story about,
00:08:01
Lily Canter
women are endurance.
00:08:04
Emma
Yeah, and I think and the stories kind of really highlight as well, especially when you look back historically at how women's achievements and ability at endurance was just being ignored or overlooked because, you know, we weren't allowed to run and a marathon for ages. It wasn't until 1984 that there was a women's marathon in the Olympics.
00:08:34
Emma
And yet women were doing this, but that evidence didn't seem to matter somehow. There was just this kind of pervasive notion that women were weaker, they wouldn't be able to manage it, it would damage their health, all this.
00:08:46
Emma
That really just seemed to just stick for a very long time. and And yet, kind of women were just cracking on and doing these things. So yeah, there's a real, ah yeah, it's really baffling when you start to look to look at it in detail.
00:09:03
UKRunChat
Yeah, is I was just reading the chapter last night about marathon running and I i didn't realise because the story's never been told about the the Greek lady, a her name escapes me, and who was so determined and she wanted to prove that she could run a marathon.
00:09:17
Emma
Yes, Marta Ravithi. I mean, I think part of that is you will find this story in kind of history of women's running books and things, but sometimes she's got a different name. Sometimes the details are slightly different.
00:09:31
Emma
and because it's just been lost in, in time that, you know, this woman kind of turned up and basically for fame and fortune kind of stubbornly really wanted to take part in this new event, this race that everybody was doing. Um, but you know, she was really poor, um,
00:09:54
Emma
kind of single parent, but was walking for days at a time, just trying to kind of find food for her children and just trying to kind of find some money. She was used to, I mean, she'd made the point, you know, I don't, they're like, what were you going to eat on along the way? She's like, well, I normally don't have much food. I just, you know, she was just doing it because she was having to, she was just kind of surviving and finding her own way.
00:10:16
Emma
and So, yeah, I mean, Yeah, that story is a difficult one to get to the bottom of because like there's a few different records of how she did it, but she was there.
Selecting Stories and Balancing Science with Storytelling
00:10:28
Emma
and But yeah, all these stories that we hadn't really hold told of or you know we hadn't heard before, and unless you'd read some very kind of specific old running history textbook type books. So yeah. Yeah.
00:10:44
UKRunChat
So how did you go about choosing which women to feature then? Did did stories just emerge organically as you were going through the process?
00:10:52
Lily Canter
Yeah, I think we started with a wish list. um
00:10:55
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:10:56
Lily Canter
We obviously knew we we wanted Jasmine Paris because she was probably the most well known and and she was a good sort of entry point into the book. um And then we just started kind of researching women who basically had won races outright or had done world first or broken world records.
00:11:18
Lily Canter
And... and you know, we started to find there was an awful lot of women out out there. um But also as we interview people, um you know, they mention other people.
00:11:29
Lily Canter
So I spoke to Sabrina Vergy about her Wainwright record.
00:11:32
Emma
Thank you.
00:11:33
Lily Canter
And she was like, you need to speak to Jamie Arons. Like she's not had nearly enough publicity about what what she's done. So that then led to us speaking to Jamie Arons.
00:11:45
Lily Canter
But we were aware that we didn't want it just to be British women as well, although there are a lot of British women. um We wanted representation from all over the world. So again, we were looking for stories elsewhere.
00:12:01
Lily Canter
um so we've got stories from America, Australia, Kong. um And, you know, some of it was because I write about running anyway. So I was kind of aware of,
00:12:14
Lily Canter
you know, had heard of some of these stories or there'd be an odd article come here and there. Others, I think, came from our research, you know, particularly the historical characters. Emma did most of the history chapters and and she sort of, like she said, sort of stumbled, you know, across a mention of someone in their and then had to kind of go and research more.
00:12:35
Lily Canter
and so yeah, it was quite an organic process with a bit of a wish list along the way.
00:12:42
Emma
Yeah, and I think we had to find a balance as well of any different types of stories. There's lots of women who aren't in the book. And in fact, even as we were sort of finishing the book, there were records being broken and, and you know, kind of women winning races and doing firsts. Like we had to draw a line at some point.
00:13:04
Emma
and But yeah, trying to get a mix, I think, of of different types of stories in there.
00:13:09
UKRunChat
So how willing were the women that you spoke to kind of wanting to tell their stories? Did you encounter any resistance or?
00:13:09
Lily Canter
And also I think,
00:13:14
Lily Canter
oh yeah, like really, really wanted to to I mean, it wasn't difficult to get any of the women to speak to us.
00:13:17
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:13:22
Lily Canter
um Yeah, they were very keen and that, yeah, like say, they were very keen at kind of nominating each other um and yeah, putting forward other names.
00:13:34
Lily Canter
And, yeah, the other thing to say really was we we had, like, different topics in the book that we wanted cover.
00:13:38
Emma
Yeah.
00:13:41
Lily Canter
So although we're telling all these stories, we're actually digging into a different theme in each chapter. So we needed someone, you know, someone who's very good at pacing, for the pacing chapter, someone who was a good example of fat utilisation for the chapter that focused on fat. um So we had to be strategic in that way as well.
00:14:05
Emma
Yeah, because there's a lot of science in the book, but we didn't. It had to be very
Challenges and Collaboration in Writing the Book
00:14:09
Emma
readable. It had to be the stories first to kind of explain, to help explain the science rather than kind of a very detailed referenced kind of list of studies. That was never what our intention was going to be.
00:14:25
UKRunChat
Yeah, and it it is it is a book that's very easy to read, I must say. it It does come across as as a story. how How challenging was it kind of writing this book collaboratively and getting that same voice? That must have been quite challenging.
00:14:40
Lily Canter
Yeah, I think, I mean, we've written another book before. We've we've written a journalism textbook. um So we know how to work together. and But basically there were 20 chapters and we did 10 each.
00:14:51
UKRunChat
Yeah, OK.
00:14:52
Lily Canter
So dividing up the chapters, you know, we basically chose the ones we wanted to do. there was, like, Emma was interested in the history. So she did the history chapters. i guess, went more into the sort sociology and the psychology.
00:15:09
Lily Canter
and then we shared up the science chapters. i think Emma has got science background, so she's probably just slightly more of the sort of physiological chapters. um We wrote them and then we basically had deadlines for each chapter and then we look at each other's and edit them so we were kind of getting the same tone of voice throughout.
00:15:31
Lily Canter
um So I think we write for in quite a similar style. um But yeah.
00:15:39
Emma
and but It did become easier once we had a chapter we were happy with, like finding that voice initially.
00:15:42
UKRunChat
Okay. Yeah.
00:15:46
Emma
and Initially, before we found our publisher and kind of the sample chapter, it had more of our personal story in. But then we kind of realised, well, there's two of us. So how is that going to work? and So we took ourselves out of it completely and it just became the stories of the other women. And then, yeah, so I think once we had one chapter that we were happy with, and that made it easier. We sort of had a template to kind of go from. Yeah.
00:16:20
Emma
But then i suppose perhaps the the hard bit was kind of the final stretch of bringing it together into a book that has kind of a narrative and a thread that goes throughout. We had to lock ourselves away in an Airbnb for that, to get that final, and to get everything completely done and dusted from the draft to the final version.
00:16:33
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:16:40
Emma
But yeah, it was fine.
00:16:41
Lily Canter
Yeah, and if you can think think back to like our first chapters that we wrote, but they were massive. I think the first chapter I wrote was 9,000 words. And the publisher was like, this is three chapters.
00:16:53
UKRunChat
but
00:16:54
Lily Canter
um So there was, yeah, I think like Emma says, in the beginning it was like working it out. And I think it was more the lowest of statistics and reports and studies and it was much more dense.
00:17:08
Lily Canter
And... the guidance was you need to pull out these stories more and focus on them and use them to get into the stats rather than the other way around. um So once we kind of went away and reworked those like massive chapters and break them down, it actually, it it just flowed a lot more and it was a lot easier because we were like, right, we need a woman as a focal point for this chapter.
00:17:35
Lily Canter
and focus on their story and then we'll go into kind of the theme. So there was, yeah, there's a lot, you know, a lot of help from the publishers in terms of the editing process to help, yeah, to bring the sort of shape together in the end.
00:17:53
UKRunChat
So did any of the stories that you can came across, did they kind of expand or kind of challenge your own ideas about what and an ultra runner or or indeed and a woman in another endurance sport kind of looks like or represents?
00:18:12
Emma
yeah I think I mean one of the things that you realize is that
00:18:19
Emma
everybody had sort of come to their, um, kind of their sport in a different way. i think there were some who from childhood had been exploring mountains and it just seemed, and then they'd done some bell running and then it just seemed quite natural that they were good at this and would continue. But there were others who'd come to it later in life or come to competition accidentally, or, you know, I think, um,
00:18:46
Emma
sort of just suddenly realising oh I think I'm quite good at this getting just after giving it a go so I think it did really open that view of um ultras are
Personal Ultra Experiences of the Authors
00:19:01
Emma
quite achievable and accessible I mean ultra is a huge definition isn't it like some of the women are doing you know month-long events um
00:19:05
UKRunChat
Yeah, is.
00:19:10
Emma
But it is perhaps more achievable, accessible than a lot of female runners who do shorter distances road kind of runs might realise. and And that's something that Lily and I had found as well, you know, from that first step, doing that first ultra thinking, are we going to be able to do this?
00:19:27
Emma
Lily did her first one by accident, just getting a looped run.
00:19:29
UKRunChat
Yeah, I was ask about that. Yeah, I'm really interested to hear about your first experiences, actually. Let's talk a bit about that
00:19:36
Lily Canter
Yeah, I mean, i I think I ended up raping Emma into all of this. um ohho
00:19:40
UKRunChat
that.
00:19:43
Lily Canter
um was actually in a triathlon club, and because I'd been running, and i've kind of got um a bit fed up of running. And so i um yeah, i was in triathlon club.
00:19:51
Emma
Thank
00:19:56
Lily Canter
I was doing, like, the standard sort of half marathon. I'd done a 20-mile race. I was sort of curious about a marathon. Could I actually do one um And I was training for a half Ironman at the same time.
00:20:13
Lily Canter
But there was this race that was a looped race. It's local to me. It's in the forest, 5K. You just go round and you've got six hours to do as many loops as you want.
00:20:23
Lily Canter
So I thought, well, I've done 20 miles, so maybe I'll do about 23. And then ill I'll see how I race, you know, how I feel. And maybe I'll sign up for a marathon.
00:20:37
Lily Canter
And what I realized was on this race, you do a loop and then there's like a big spread of food. And so you can be, grab, you know, some sweets and some crisps and some sandwiches and some sorin.
00:20:51
Lily Canter
And then you do another loop and then you get some more food and there were toilets every loop as well. So it would just, was really straightforward way to do a race. And even though I had a knee injury at the time,
00:21:04
Lily Canter
and was kind of hobbling a bit towards the end. I was like, well, it's just one more loop, just one more loop. And I ended up doing pretty much close to 30 miles. Um, and I was like, oh, okay.
00:21:18
Lily Canter
It's not like as awful as I thought it was going to be. So from there, I kind of completely skipped marathons. Like I've never done a road marathon. Um,
00:21:30
Lily Canter
And I was just like, right, this ultras, this is what I want to do Ditch triathlon, ditch the half-iron map, because it was making me miserable anyway. Hated cycling. um And yeah, I just sort said to Emma, like, let's let's try and do a few ultras.
00:21:46
Lily Canter
um And then lockdown happened, there's some races we were going to do and Didn't come off, but we kind of ended up designing our own course in Snowdonia and just went like, yeah.
00:21:57
UKRunChat
Oh, so you did your own. what what was your initial reaction, Emma, when Lily said, let's do an ultra?
00:22:03
Emma
Well, quite often with many projects, running or not, that we have, it's Lily who comes to me and goes, I think we should do this thing. And I'm like, okay then. Okay.
00:22:14
Emma
I'm along for the ride. She... was like we can totally do this we can really do this we just need to find race that where the cutoffs you know there's no pressure there's kind of generous cutoffs even if you end up walking bits we can totally do this it's absolutely fine um So, yeah, we started. So we signed up for this.
00:22:37
Emma
It was going to be 100 in Romania two day race that never happened because of COVID. But on the way to training for that, we started doing longer. like We did a 28 mile than we did a 35 mile and we just started doing these slightly longer races and Lily was completely right I really surprised myself I'd only ever done I'd done one marathon but I was mainly doing half marathons I'd done so many half marathons I can't even I'd lost count um but you're kind of running flat out in a half marathon I couldn't quite get my head around oh well if I feel that tired and stiff and sore at the end of a half marathon how am I going to manage to do
00:23:15
Emma
an ultra But i I hadn't realized because I didn't know anyone else who'd done this or any other women that had done this, that it's completely different because you're so you're slowing right down.
00:23:26
Emma
Basically, you're walking up the hills, you're feeling it's just a different it's completely different thing. So we started doing these races and I found that I could do them and I could finish and I could keep going and it was absolutely fine.
00:23:39
Emma
um Yeah, we did our own sort of self-supported two day 100K in Wales. And again, we were fine. We were fine. It's just fine.
00:23:47
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:23:48
Emma
and So then I got really hooked and like, I actually prefer this. These are the kind of races that I want to do. And I think there's no pressure because you have no idea when you start a race how long it's going to take.
00:24:04
Emma
like i don't even look, I'm not even looking at kind of the speed I'm running or the time or anything. I'm just looking at a map on my phone. You've got no expectations because it depends on the terrain and how much elevation and even things like the weather and how many bogs going to have to climb through. So yeah, he just completely took the pressure off me. It was a much nicer experience, I think.
00:24:25
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's that's interesting. So because ultras do seem to not be as competitive as kind of, you know, measured distances, don't they? Like I'm i'm talking like a half marathon or a marathon.
00:24:39
UKRunChat
and So that it does seem to take that pressure off. What did you learn about yourselves through ultra running? any Any kind of surprises there?
00:24:48
Lily Canter
Yeah, I think you realise that it really is not about the running. um
00:24:56
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:24:56
Lily Canter
It's about the fueling and about the sort of mental strength And I actually think I have the opposite problem to most people in that mentally I'm like, yeah, I can do that, it's fine.
00:25:09
Lily Canter
And then my body doesn't always agree. um Whereas I think a lot of people like worry about being able to do it. But I've just totally changed my mindset now. I'm just like, yeah, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. I'll just keep walking.
00:25:23
Lily Canter
And you do forget that like the longer the harder it is to feel and and I did a 100k race last year and it was my first 100k in one go.
00:25:35
Lily Canter
And I did get to point where I was like, getting food down was really difficult and I hadn't had that before. um But I was just shoveling it down anyway. um But I knew i just had to keep eating to keep moving um and that I could keep going.
00:25:54
Lily Canter
um So, yeah, I think you kind of learn a lot about... yourself and kind of, you know, what what you're able to put your ah mind and body through.
00:26:07
Lily Canter
And it does give you lot of resilience.
00:26:07
Emma
Yeah.
Hidden Skills and Adaptability of Women in Endurance Sports
00:26:10
Emma
Yeah. And I think you get better at listening to cues from your body as well. So in the half marathon races, I never thought about whether I needed salt tabs or, you know, you might have a gel halfway around, but these, all these other factors, like, am I about to get a blister? Do I need to strap that up to stop that?
00:26:32
Emma
Just kind of the self-care kind of things, but also listening to those little niggles or kind of little signs that you might need something else if you're drunk enough water all those kind of things and and what works for you might be completely different or even what works for you on that particular day might be completely different to what works for someone else so just getting quite good I think at understanding your own body and what food it likes to eat and all you know joining race and all those kind of things that's quite unique I think or individual
00:27:04
Lily Canter
Yeah. And I've certainly found I've got faster at shorter distances from running long distances.
00:27:12
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:27:12
Lily Canter
And I don't do huge amounts of speed work. I do a bit um within some of my long runs. um But I'm getting PBs at shorter distances. And again, stuff I'm learning from ultras, I'm putting in short distances.
00:27:27
Lily Canter
Fueling is another... I fuel my, say, half marathon much better now than I did before. because I now understand, because you just can't cut corners on an ultra when it comes to fueling.
00:27:40
Lily Canter
um So it does kind of trickle down, i think, into other distances as well.
00:27:47
Emma
Yeah, I think I've also learned from those early days when we first started and I was kind of following. So for the Romania trip, there was a training plan. that was following because I had no Although quite cleverly, it was doing it by, which I really like, by kind of hours out.
00:28:01
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:28:02
Emma
So it would be like, do two, you know, just be out for two hours. It was all kind of on time rather than kind of any distance or speed. and But then the the plan would say something like, um and when you get back from this two hours, like don't sit down and put your feet up, like just be, you know, walking around the rest of the day keep busy. And I was just like, well,
00:28:21
Emma
Of course, the minute I get back from that run, I've got three children asking me where my lunch is. Like I don't, I never sit down.
00:28:28
UKRunChat
and what
00:28:28
Emma
and So it was like, oh that's part of my training.
00:28:32
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:28:33
Emma
Just my normal life being busy mum. I can do that. And then I think I realised that. For me, less can be more. I don't have to do huge numbers of miles. That's when I was starting to get injured and and having niggles.
00:28:47
Emma
I've introduced strength training and that's really helped loads. But it's about being clever with the training and not like sometimes my training is going for walk with the kids.
00:28:58
Emma
you know, in the hills. It's just being a bit clever about how you're doing it and not thinking, oh, well, this plan says I have to run six days a week. If I run six days a week, I'd just be an exhausted heap.
00:29:10
Emma
and And yet I can still do these events and still do these long distances. So, yeah, I think finding what works for you.
00:29:19
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's that's interesting, actually. So does does kind of the fact that women are generally more active looking after children caregiving, does that have an impact on their performance at endurance events, do you think? And and how?
00:29:33
Lily Canter
Yeah, I think it can do. i think, yeah, I mean, a theme that comes out throughout the book is that women are made to endure. Like, biologically, you know, pregnancy itself is, like, the biggest endurance feat you can go through.
00:29:49
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:29:49
Lily Canter
you know, causes huge amount changes to your body, and yet, you know, we still have to kind of keep going. We don't just, like, lie down for nine months. um So, yeah and then kind of with modern lifestyle...
00:30:03
Lily Canter
I think women are, you know, more on their feet all the time. you know, they could have four hours less leisure time a week because of everything that they're doing.
00:30:14
Lily Canter
So it does make them fairly adaptable, and I think, to ultra endurance.
00:30:20
Emma
Thank
00:30:22
Lily Canter
But also, i mean, there's sort of evidence around... some psychological factors that women are more, are kind better at the self care stuff and looking after themselves and kind of not giving themselves a hard time if things aren't going right in a race. They'll just stop and reset and sort out whatever needs to be sorted out rather than just kind of power through and ignore any pain or something that needs tackling.
00:30:54
Lily Canter
um So yeah, I think, yeah, in that respect, women are kind of designed this kind of thing.
00:31:02
Emma
Yeah, I mean, I think there's skills that, I mean, I'd certainly found this, there's skills that you have that you don't actually realise until you're doing the ultra that, because it's not just about the running, about lots of other things along the way.
00:31:09
UKRunChat
yeah
00:31:15
Emma
Actually, oh, yeah, I'm quite good at just talking myself into like running the next bit or kind of breaking things down. And yeah, I think
00:31:27
Emma
there's lots of other things that come to it other than just your fitness that you might not realize until you're, until you're actually doing these races.
00:31:34
UKRunChat
Yeah, because I think you mentioned earlier, Lily, the word psychology. Like how did you uncover any differences in how women approach kind of pain and self-talk really during an ultra?
00:31:46
Lily Canter
Yeah, it was really interesting um doing with the psychology chapters and and a little bit frustrating as well because a lot of the evidence is either inconclusive or contradictory. um And there's a lot of myths that go around in society that, you know, women do this and men do that. But actually, it's all a social construct. construct It's not something that kind of happens in the brain.
00:32:15
Lily Canter
um So like with pain, some studies show are better dealing with pain, some studies show women are better dealing with pain. You know, pain is very subjective. You know, what type of pain, it varies hugely. So yeah, from a pain point of view, there isn't really any difference between the sexes.
00:32:34
Lily Canter
um And in terms of like executive function and the way that our brains operate. But again, there isn't really a difference.
00:32:47
Lily Canter
It's the social aspects that are different. It's the way that women think about themselves, um the way they they work better in a team, and they have more self-compassion.
00:32:53
Emma
Thank
00:33:01
Lily Canter
um They, you know, this kind of fight, fight or flight is actually more of a male trait. And with women, it tends to be tend and befriend, which is why they work better in a team, because they'll pull together rather than kind of compete against each other.
00:33:21
Lily Canter
yeah, yeah it it was really interesting kind of trying to kind of navigate all the studies in psychology and and the differences in the sections and kind of realising that this is all, yeah, it all comes from society um and that in itself is, you know, quite problematic in the way that we kind pigeonholed still men and women into kind of different attributes.
Encouraging Women's Participation in Ultra Sports
00:33:50
UKRunChat
Yeah, because we we still, we we think obviously women are now welcome ultras. Is there still, do you think, an issue with getting women into longer distance? Is that, you know, do we still have room for improvement in society?
00:34:09
Emma
Yeah, I think there's huge room for improvement. and i mean, from personal experience, I think once you turn up to an ultra, when you're on that start line, all the events I've done anyway, have been incredibly welcoming and friendly. And it kind of doesn't matter who you are.
00:34:28
Emma
Everyone's kind of very supportive and you know you definitely feel like you should be there at that point, at least in the races that I've done. But the problem is, I suppose, the barrier is, again, encouraging women to sign up in the first place.
00:34:42
UKRunChat
Mm-hmm.
00:34:46
Emma
So I think that's where we found a lot of, you know, because for most ultras, the they're not all like this, but for most, you will find that kind of the proportion of women are around 20%.
00:35:01
Emma
taking part So there is a huge gap there. And some of it is how races are marketed. some Some of it is having that belief that you belong there, that this is something that you can do and, you know, can can take part in.
00:35:19
Emma
Some of it is about how the information is presented or what the cutoffs are or what the what's going to be present at aid stations, what the toilet situation is like. There's all kinds of different ways in which women might feel that they could take on a race.
00:35:35
Emma
and
00:35:36
UKRunChat
Hmm.
00:35:36
Emma
And some of it kind of fits into the guidelines that SheRaces have published for race directors.
00:35:44
Lily Canter
Yeah, and I think it does vary between sports as well. Like, I think ultra running is probably making really big strides. But if you look at triathlon, particularly the sort of Ironman brand, their cutoffs are really tight.
00:35:58
Lily Canter
You know, one of the reasons I pulled out of my half Ironman was I was worried I wouldn't make the swim cutoff. I knew I'd be fine. The run would be absolutely fine. The bike, I could probably just about make it.
00:36:10
Lily Canter
But the swim in the sea, ah wasn't going to make that cutoff. I could just do it in the pool, but there was no way I was going do in the sea. So I couldn't do that event. And you know someone argued to me, but yeah, Ironman's meant to be like the best of the best.
00:36:24
Lily Canter
It's like, you've got 5,000 people doing it. like but It's not the best of the best. you know There are elite people there, obviously, but it's meant to be mass participation.
00:36:35
Lily Canter
But if you've got tight cut-offs, you're basically cutting off women from from entering those events. um so you know that that's a big issue and i think in cycling you know cycling is really harsh these really like long events you know you're not allowed to get any support of anyone else you can't even take a bottle of water off anyone it's not like running we're all like sharing snacks um you know you've got to be 100 self-sufficient and you'll get you know you'll get disqualified if you help anyone you know if they've got burst tire or or anything
00:36:52
Emma
Thank you.
00:37:11
Lily Canter
um So I'm not saying we need kind of take away the competitive elements of these sports, but I think there's a balance to be had between competition and and participation.
00:37:24
Lily Canter
And some events are not getting that right. um And it's it's little things, you know, like a recent event that I did, they were putting out social media posts and they made a comment about, you know, this is what it looks like in the middle of the pack with some photos.
00:37:44
Lily Canter
And they had a photo of the woman who was in third place. I'm like, she's not middle of the pack. She's in third. She's at the front of the female pack. There is a difference between the male and the female.
00:37:55
Lily Canter
So not kind of lumping it, you know, all in together. um And those just, know, little distinctions that kind of make women feel like, know, they belong in those spaces.
00:38:06
Lily Canter
So there's, yeah, there's still an awful lot of work that can be done.
00:38:10
Emma
Yeah, I think it's right it's having those websites where you think, oh, that race sounds interesting, go along to the website, and it's just all pictures of men on a start line or running kind of up a mountain.
00:38:10
Lily Canter
like
00:38:21
Emma
And you think, oh, if I turn up there, and is there actually going to be any women there at all? This isn't for me. That's what that kind of marketing shows, essentially. It just immediately would put you off before you'd even signed up.
Favorite Historical Stories and Inspiring Determination
00:38:38
Emma
So, yeah.
00:38:40
UKRunChat
Yeah, so there's still lots of work that we need to do. We did we did chat to Sophie actually about SheRaces on a previous episode. So if anyone out there is listening, wants to catch up on that. it was a really interesting episode about the work that that they're trying to do and you They do have a female only ultra coming up, don't they?
00:38:57
Lily Canter
Yeah, they've got one of the Peak District, we're doing that in August. It's a 50 county.
00:39:01
Emma
Yeah.
00:39:03
Lily Canter
Yeah, it's part of the She Trail series.
00:39:07
UKRunChat
Yeah, yeah. So what what was kind of your your favourite story from the book? Let's kind of finish with and just just a couple of of stories to encourage people to go and read a bit more.
00:39:21
Emma
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really hard to answer this question because they're all kind of favorites in different ways, I think. and ah But yeah, so yes, I think this is a good way to not offend anyone if I go for a historical point.
00:39:39
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:39:40
Emma
story So there was and a craze in the 1800s called pedestrianism, where people would kind of do these crazy walking challenges, really long distances.
00:39:51
Emma
and And it was kind of like a working class sport in some ways that people would bet on. And people would be doing this at showgrounds and behind pubs and kind of just doing loops, even on boardwalks in theatres.
00:40:03
Emma
And this was something that women were quite good at. There was, you know, some women who were really showing their prowess in doing this, but they were almost seen as a bit kind of circus freaks, like roll up, come and look at this woman walk for a while.
00:40:16
Emma
and And one of the types of these races was to do ah thousand miles in a thousand hours. So you're doing one mile every hour, but then you keep going.
00:40:28
Emma
and like 42 days and there was a woman in Bradford called Emma Sharp and I'm from Bradford and I'm an Emma so like i was like ooh how have I not heard of this woman before but she but yeah basically oh god sorry
00:40:40
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:40:54
Emma
basically she um had heard about a woman in London who'd done this event at a theatre and it had kind of been cancelled. There was a big controversy.
00:41:06
Emma
But she just thought, well, I could do that. And she just kind of went to speak to the local guy at the pub and just she'd not trained or done anything, you know, just mother of young children, just off she went. She was just wanting to make her fame and fortune.
00:41:20
Emma
and I won't give too much of the story away, but ended up having to carry pistols around with her to keep her safe, and as thousands of people kind of gambled on whether she could actually do this or not.
00:41:31
Emma
and But she set herself up life afterwards. So she just kind of did not want to, you know, she didn't care if anybody thought she couldn't do it. She just knew she could and off she went.
00:41:43
Emma
So I thought she was pretty amazing.
00:41:46
Lily Canter
Yeah, I think for me, um but there was a group of women actually um you in Australia who were part of an adventure racing team. So it's four women.
00:41:59
Lily Canter
And they did a race that they won outright. And they were the first kind of all women team to win a race outright. And the reason they won it was because they were just so belligerent.
00:42:12
Lily Canter
um Because with this race, you go checkpoint to checkpoint, you're running, kayaking and cycling. And they can go on for like about a week, these races.
00:42:24
Lily Canter
um And if you mess miss a checkpoint, you get a time penalty. So they were like, we're going to get every single one. And there was one where the river, um the organisers hadn't realised that the river was going to be dredged.
00:42:40
Lily Canter
And so it was just like mud and slurry from all the cattle off all the fields.
00:42:41
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:42:46
Lily Canter
And so they were trying to get through on their kayak and they just were kind of not moving at all. So they got out and you have to carry kayak to the checkpoint.
00:42:57
Lily Canter
So they were then like wading through all the the like bulrushes at the side, carrying this kayak and it took them, um you know, an hour to do like a kilometre or something because they were just kind of, it was the terrain was so difficult and they were carrying this kayak but they were like we are going to get to this damn checkpoint with this kayak which they did and the male team that were kind of on their tail decided, know, we're not going to bother with that and didn't do the checkpoint and took the penalty instead and
00:43:12
Emma
Thank you.
00:43:20
UKRunChat
and
00:43:34
Lily Canter
But yeah, they were just so dogged and so determined and they were like, we're going to get to this checkpoint no matter what it takes. And so, yeah, I think their story kind of really stood out, but whatever the obstacle, they would overcome it. They would work as a team.
00:43:53
Lily Canter
um And yeah, they had an amazing performance and they've been winning other stuff since then. So yeah, they were really great. They were really great to speak to.
00:44:02
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's brilliant. So there's a lot of stories that just show real determination like that, isn't it?
00:44:07
Lily Canter
Absolutely.
00:44:07
Emma
Yeah.
00:44:08
UKRunChat
But we need to kind of, we need to hear those stories, don't we, as women, to think, yes, we can do that. and what What impact do you hope the book's going have on people, the all these stories?
00:44:14
Lily Canter
Yeah, and...
00:44:18
Lily Canter
Yeah, I mean, a lot of these women ah ah not, you know, they're not young. You know, they're old women. they've got A lot of them have got children as well. and So I think it just kind of shows you, she no matter kind of what your background or your circumstances, you know, everyone's got this kind of,
00:44:37
Lily Canter
within them, it doesn't mean you're going to be, you know, winning races, but you're able to, to participate. So, yeah, I think we hope it will inspire women to kind of push themselves and and try new challenges. And it doesn't have to be in sport. It could be, you know, in in any kind of way in life.
00:44:57
Lily Canter
um But just kind of, know, don't let obstacles get in your way and and have self-belief. and And also, like, you know, we said at the beginning that men are reading this book and they're taking a lot from it and actually realizing that there is still a long way to go in sport and things need to change, attitudes need to change and men need to understand what it's like for women compete.
00:45:25
Lily Canter
um And, you know, in an environment where there's no, well, very little research done on women, all the coaching advice is based on men, the races are pretty much designed for men.
00:45:36
Lily Canter
um You know, the race T-shirts are often designed for men. all of that, you know, i think bringing that understanding say to men as well will hopefully kind of start to see a sort of, you know, shift a little bit.
00:45:52
Emma
Yeah, and I think for anyone who's reading the book who does think, you know... Perhaps they've done some of these sports, but they're thinking, oh, maybe I could push myself further. Kind of one of the things that I would say is it really comes across in the book, but it from our experience as well, that.
00:46:09
Emma
Women are really good at supporting other women, like ask for advice as people who have done this, they will help you out. They will help you during these events. Kind of all the women were suggesting others that we should speak to.
00:46:22
Emma
and you know, wanting to uplift others doing the same thing. They're not, there isn't this competitive, I've learned this skill and I'm holding onto to it and not providing any other information.
00:46:37
Emma
So yeah, ask questions and speak to those who've done it and they will, yeah, absolutely give you support.
00:46:43
UKRunChat
yeah Oh, that's great. Thank you so much, both of you, your time on this episode. and So the book's out now. It's called Ultra Women, The Trailblazers Defying Sexism in Sport.
00:46:55
UKRunChat
And we've been chatting to Lily Cantor and Emma Wilkinson today. Thank you both so much. And a hope that the book launch continues to go really well for you. And yeah, and do let us know if you're listening out there, if you've if you've read it, if you've got any feedback, and or if you are an ultra woman, we'd love to hear from you.
00:47:14
UKRunChat
and So that's all for this time. And we'll see you on the next episode.