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Sophie Power
195 Plays11 days ago
Sophie Power is an ultra runner, and campaigner, passionate about increasing access to sport for women. She has recently set a new women's world record for the most distance run on a treadmill in 48 hours, at this year's National Running Show in Birmingham.
Michelle and Sophie chat about:
- Sophie's World Record breaking 48 hour treadmill run at the National Running Show and how she's contributing to scientific research on female athletes.
- Her first experiences of ultra running
- How a viral picture of her breastfeeding at the 106-mile UTMB led to her campaigning about inclusivity for female athletes.
- How race directors can make their events more inclusive for women.
- How male runners can be female allies on the trails
The SheRACES female-only 25k and 50k trail race in the Peak District is happening on 2nd August 2025
Follow Sophie on Instagram
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, welcome to this episode of the UK Run Chat podcast. It's Michelle here and today I'm joined by Sophie Power. Sophie's an ultra runner and campaigner who's passionate about increasing access to sport for women. We'll be chatting all about her she races later. and She's recently set a new women's world record for the most distance run on a treadmill in 48 hours at this year's national running show in Birmingham. Sophie, thanks so much for joining us today. so How are you feeling after that world record breaking run? That's incredible. It's getting better. I've been tracking i've been tracking my recovery. um It's absolutely fascinating what happens to you after these really long endurance events.
00:00:42
Speaker
And it's everything from the first like not, you need to sleep, but you can't sleep. And then at some point your body realizes a few days later that you're not doing things. And you have like this massive night sweats of all that kind of retained kind of fluid coming out. And then looking at the the HRV scores, looking at the sleep scores. um I'm having my blood work done every few days as a study to see how that kind of changes over. But it's so it's so fascinating. but I'm still nagged. It's only two weeks ago, isn't it? Yeah, it takes a while. ah really I mean, I think it took me five months to recover from Ireland.
00:01:21
Speaker
is how deep I had to go. The treadmill was less so because I was kind of hiking out the first last five hours so I could speak to people at the show and also because I'd lost my balance and it was actually really dangerous for me to try and and run. My legs could run off the treadmill but not on the treadmill. So it was an easy end to it and a shorter. um But yeah, hopefully I'm back into maybe kind of week three kind of 40 miles this week and then back into base next week but no speed, no challenging the nervous system until I get kind of a bit back to it. But it's, some yeah, I think it really shows me how if you really push yourself, you know, your body could feel, my legs were fine. They're tired, they feel fine. But your actual nervous system, that takes time. And if you push it too much, that's where you can really delay the recovery.
00:02:11
Speaker
Um, so listening to our body and I'm not great at that. So I use kind of watch data quite a lot to go, how good was my sleep last night? Um, but yeah, I think I find the whole science thing absolutely kind of, um, so, so interesting, but yeah, a bit more recovery and then back into it. Yeah. I mean, it's, but I guess that's the benefit of doing it on stage in a kind of set location. You you could have acts, the scientists could access you, couldn't they? And actually monitor everything and.
00:02:39
Speaker
just take us back and tell us why you attempt it. Like where did the idea come from for a 48 hour treadmill run? And as I know it's been done before, but why did you kind of feel that you wanted to attempt it?
00:02:51
Speaker
it So I ran, so I set the bar back off for length of Ireland last May. And I really thought I'd taken two months at least before I thought about the treadmill, but I let back my inbox and it's 10 days later that I send the Seymour to Mike Seaman. He's a friend of mine and the head of the running show again. Can you get me a treadmill? But really, I think I felt an Ireland, you know, I'm, I run 24 hour basis for Great Britain and I'm not,
00:03:18
Speaker
I'm a good 24 hour runner, but I'm best in the second half and kind of, I'm not, I've never done five Ks, 10 Ks. You know, I came into ultra running from zero to ultra. I've never trained that speed. I didn't have that baseline speed. And, um, I was nowhere halfway in the world championships and I ended up as kind of first Britain 19th overall at the end. And that's because the second half's better. So I thought, well, what's longer than 24?
00:03:44
Speaker
I can't go and do island crossings. You know, I've got three kids. We took up the half term to do it. What can I do? And I thought 48 is a great kind of block of time, but I can't travel um because I'd have to travel the crew. There aren't 48 hour races in the UK. I've got the kids, I've got my caring responsibilities. And I thought I could just do this on the treadmill. and And that was where it came into it. And I think that balance with the fact that Ireland was all about trying to empower women to take on challenges and rethink, you know, what we're capable of, which is always more than what we think we're capable of. And when we do something that we're not, we don't know we can do, and we complete it, we get so much confidence in the rest of our lives. It's not just kind of we think we can do more running, it's kind of everything else we have in our career and our family life. So I wanted to kind of see if I could do it something more public and had so many people join me in Ireland and
00:04:40
Speaker
um just pop out from bushes on the roadside to come and run with me. And it was amazing. But I thought, what could be more public? And it's never about the record. That is the absolutely wrong place to try and set a travel world record. It was too hot. It was busy. It was noisy. I couldn't sleep. um It was really stressful. But 30,000 people came by. And there's an awful, i i my inbox is so full of women, especially, that and kids that have gone, actually,
00:05:08
Speaker
that was a bit crazy and you know I'm gonna sign up for 10K now or I'm gonna take on this challenge. So that's why the 48, I think, and that's why the running show, like I don't, records are pieces of paper, yeah um but I think doing something that kind of, and we don't get to see ultra runners no and and what it looks like and the kind of blood and sweat and tears and things. So um yeah, I won't be doing it again, is all I can say.
00:05:38
Speaker
And I think I've looked at a challenge next year. I've got like something penciled in and involves basically no people, no vehicles. Um, is the opposite, but, um, yeah, it was an amazing opportunity and I'm i'm really grateful to the National Running Show for, for all that, that help, but it did mean that I could have a science team yeah from Liverpool John Moores university. They're taking readings every hour and just starting to contribute to.
00:06:04
Speaker
science for women, it could only, 6% of the science, ah sports science is only done on female athletes. We know very little about the female body. We know lots about 20-year-old men. um So if I could play one small part in, I was learning more than that was about it. say and So many reasons. But yeah, and it and it required me to be recovered from Ireland, which I only could have signed off on about three weeks before the event. Yeah. So so when did Ireland happen? That was last year, wasn't it?
00:06:33
Speaker
That was last May in half term. Yeah. and So that was, because because you were you became the fastest woman to run the length of Ireland, following of course, in the in the very famous footsteps of Mimi, didn't you? and how I know, she was so helpful. She's brilliant. and She was one of my mentors kind of my when I first started ultra running. So kind of, it was lovely to kind of be able to chat to her about it. And she was, yeah, she's she's absolutely brilliant athlete. Yeah. So kind of how, how was,
00:07:01
Speaker
the latter stages of running on the treadmill in front of all those people. Like what does it look like physically? How much sleep did you get? Like you probably- It was bad. It was really bad. I think, and I guess the frustrations, I mean, I could be frustrated about the performance in the end. The first 24 were really kind of a standard 24. I ran I think 228 kilometers quite happily. Just pacing, my normal kind of 24 hour pacing with a little bit in reserve. um And then we realized 24 hours in, I didn't sleep, I think I had a quick rest, but I couldn't get to sleep um during that. And I thought 24 hours in, I'll take a rest. But we're in the middle of the running show. yeah It's 2.30. And there was no quiet until kind of eight o'clock at night. And so I'm trying to go into like the disabled lose that being put aside or by the side and just putting some
00:07:58
Speaker
earphones in and an eye mask on and nothing was happening. And all of these rest, I had probably five or six kind of failed naps, which was so frustrating um because I was losing time. I wasn't sleeping. I was then getting frustrated. um I didn't want to eat. I was really overheated. I had ice down my sports bra. um Yeah, the second 24 were interesting. I've learned a lot. They had fans on me, but I just could not get cool.
00:08:27
Speaker
um And I finally got to sleep once I'd broken the record about six in the morning um and then took about an hour off the treadmill just trying to nap, trying to refuel and then realized that I wanted to be there present for the show and to chat to people and to see people. And um I was so wobbly that we were just at some point, let's just hike it out. Like I've broken the record. It doesn't really matter what I do now. It'll get broken in the future. let's just um Let's just go and have some fun. Yeah. So what kind of conversations were you having with people then at the show?
00:09:00
Speaker
So I think the the great thing about it is everyone has to come to you. yeah So the National Running Show is is everyone's there that kind of loads of friends from all over and it's a great place to meet up. And normally you're like, I'll meet you at this stand at this time and you at this stand. No, no, I wasn't moving. So everyone had to come to me, which is great fun. So kind of, I was so lucky. So I had kind of Joe Pavey, Mo Farah.
00:09:22
Speaker
Um, and kind of, um, and catching up with Kim Jackson, Paris, and everyone has come to me, um, Colin Jackson. So it's great. I was like, I got to meet everyone. Um, but yeah, people come over and I had lots of friends come in and join on the treadmill, um, through the night. Um, people will come in and run beside me or kind of crew, um, or people just kind of come up to the fence and kind of shouts the conversation out about kind of how she races has impacted them or.
00:09:49
Speaker
kind of how they've been inspired to do something. So it was lovely to introvert. It was a lot. I'm not a natural extrovert. So it was a lot and it it was an energy set, but that was the whole point. um That was the whole point of it. It wasn't about how far how far can I run? Great to set the record because that's what got all the press. yeah yeah But really it was um just really fun to see people's faces when they looked at it and they looked at the number and they're like,
00:10:17
Speaker
Hang on, why? Why are you doing this? um i says I don't have a great answer for why yet. So just just tell us for context, like what what was the final distance that you achieved in the 40 hours? It was 370.9 kilometers. So I think that's about 230 miles yeah um in the 48 hours. Yeah, that's incredible. And what's your strategy in terms of kind of running and walking and fueling up? How do you manage that on a very long run like that?
00:10:48
Speaker
So I ran the first 24 hours pretty much solid um as I normally would do. um And then it was run walking to break it up a bit. I think I really, really struggled with not being able to do it naturally and having to press buttons and it was slow up and down. And I really, really struggled towards the end. I would have naturally kind of run more and then walked a little bit for kind of 20 seconds, run more. And instead it had to be kind of quite kind of I'll do this for eight minutes and I'll walk for two minutes. And I really, I really, really struggled because it was hard to kind of run and press the buttons. And, um, yes, we started the run walking, but no, I was the whole fast 24 pretty much. Um, I'm looking at the charts and I was just running like I normally would do. Um, I think pace, I started at kind of eight, uh, I started at 11 K an hour. Yeah.
00:11:41
Speaker
I switched to miles. It was, the travel was in kilometers and my head's in miles. So it was quite fun doing all the mass, but then my mass got progressively poorer over the time. Like God knows what I was doing at the end. I realized I was on for everything and I'm on for a number and the crew were like, same time was saying completely different. And yeah, we, I had no, I had no idea where I was by the end, I'll be honest. And then I was all straight on stage to chat to, to, to Susie and Ewan and, um,
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah that's what I said. see ah So yeah well congratulations I mean it's a fantastic achievement and it sounds like you've inspired a lot, a lot of people there at the show. and So just take us back to the start then of of Ultra Running, how did you get into it? Because I read that you'd signed up for the marathon de Sabla before you'd kind of run a mile, is that right?
00:12:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It's not the normal it's not the normal way in. I was the unsporty girl at school. um I was second last in a mile. um I vowed never to run again. I decided I wasn't a runner. I mean, it's a really common story and you have so many of my friends that got into running.
00:12:55
Speaker
kind of having not done PE at school and being the left on the side, because you're never going to make the school team, so you're a bit rubbish, go do your music. So I was very musical. um But I loved hiking. um ah My grandmother's in the Lake District, so I loved hiking, but running was not me. and But I did train as a pilot navigator in the Air Force in the University Air Squadron when I was at university, and we did the thing called the Nijmegen Marches, which is 25 miles a day for four days, and I'm good at hiking.
00:13:25
Speaker
And my friend had done it with me. um A few years later, I was just a bit lost and I've been made redundant and from a job in finance in a really nasty way, I just got married and they're like, okay, well, you've got to go, you can have babies. And I was 26. And he'd just done the MDS marathon and he said, you'd be great at this, this would be really good for you. Everyone hikes, you're great at hiking. And so I just didn't, sometimes you just have to say yes and not really think about things.
00:13:54
Speaker
And I just called the charity that had places, said, I can raise this money. I know enough people in finance that can sponsor to me. I'll do it. And I had nine months to go from zero to MDS and, but I was fit. I was doing some kickboxing. Um, so I was fit, um, but not running fit. So I got a friend to take me for a run the next day and we kind of covered 10 K kind of run walking. And I just went from there and then did my first altruists and then.
00:14:23
Speaker
um land on the start line and realise actually I'm quite good at this long stuff and I'm hardy and I can manage my kit and I love meeting people that I wouldn't meet in day-to-day life more than anything is what I love about ultras. Yeah but but it was never the intention to get into so ultra running that's that's really interesting actually it just kind of so what was it that kind of captured you about it? I think it was just I think starting off, the MDS was a challenge and it was just something to focus on when I was a bit lost. yeah um And then once I got there, I loved being outside. I loved challenging myself. I loved the people I met. I loved exploring new country. And then I spent the next few years, I kind of got done the job, but then
00:15:11
Speaker
my holidays were these amazing stage races. And, you know, kind of, we went around from, and I dragged my husband on a few. um So I dragged him to Nepal to a stage race, to Iceland, to Fire and Ice. um I did um Cambodia, although I got airlifted in the coma because I didn't have enough salt. That wasn't a good one. Bhutan, can be Utah, like these amazing places. And I didn't take it very seriously. I did really well.
00:15:38
Speaker
because I think I can hike quickly and I um i was only probably running, I don't know, 25, 30 miles a week in training because I had busy jobs as kind of in finance and as CEO. and um But yeah, it's it was the people. It was just being at my comfort zone, being just something different. And I love i love the scenery and I just love, um I miss stage races because now I've got three kids. I can't just go away for,
00:16:07
Speaker
kind of eight, 10 days and race. And um I'm hoping that there's something I can get back into, you know, when they're older, that kind of we can go away again and um and see some more countries like that. Or they can join me. Yeah. I mean, what an amazing way to travel though and and do something like that that challenges you. Which races stand out most for you, which you've done, because you've done a lot, haven't you?
00:16:29
Speaker
At the ah the the multi days, I think Bhutan, it was a fast running race in Bhutan and it was run a company called Global Limits and um amazing and very much culturally stayed in the monasteries.
00:16:43
Speaker
Um, with, um, monks, um, young monks. Um, and I was helping them do their their English homework, which was like the Liverpool song. You'll never walk alone and like filling in the gaps. And that was at 3,600 meters. And it was just a beautiful culture experience. Um, that I'll never forget. Um, and I'd like, I'd love to go back and do their race and it was a pack race. So some of the races you carry are in stuff. yeah So that's like the marathon decide, but I, I like food.
00:17:13
Speaker
And I want to perform physically, I think now in these races and not having enough food stops that. Yeah. And so I'd much prefer the day pack where you can have food transported camp to camp, kind of like kind of dragon's back theory events. Um, you have your, you have enough on your pack, but it's transported. So I think Bhutan was definitely my favorite Cambodia because of going into a coma with hyponatremia and, um, nearly dying. That wasn't a good one. Um, but it was a phenomenal race.
00:17:42
Speaker
until I got helicopter out. Yeah, because I was going to ask if you've ever not finished a race, but that sounds pretty hairy. So what went wrong there? You just, you drank too much water. I drank too much water over several days. It was so hot. It was, it was so humid and the, what people don't realise is I'm five foot three and away nine stone. I'm really quite small. Yeah. There's other guys in the race that are six foot three and kind of 50% bigger, like,
00:18:12
Speaker
and the volunteers were getting everyone to drink up their water, I don't need as much water. um And I actually need a lot of salt per litre. I did the precision hydration testing straight after, and can I need a thousand milligrams per litre? um And I wasn't having anyone near that. I wasn't keeping my food down. And so my my blood soium my sodium levels went to 108, and I think there should be 130 plus. um And I i just collapsed after day three.
00:18:39
Speaker
and I was leading the race and I was pushing probably a bit hard. And it's all on TV from this Canadian TV series called Boundless, which is quite weird watching it back and seeing myself kind of like one half of my face is kind of paralyzed. It's kind of like I had a stroke and yeah, I was given 50% chance of living and if I lived, I'd have brain damage. And that was a lot and I was married and we didn't have the kids and it led to a lot of changes in how I approach risk yeah um especially with the kids and what I like doing now. But no, I've certainly learned a lot about salts and I'm very, I have lots of Excel spreadsheets when it comes to longer races with how much salt I'm having and and how much food I'm having um to make sure nothing like that ever happens again.
00:19:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's frightening, isn't it? And I guess that takes us back to what you were saying earlier about there not being enough research done on um women. So you were kind of forced to have what um what a man should have. Yeah, and that had consequences. That's really frightening. i'm glad I'm really glad you're okay. That must have been really scary though. and My husband's definitely kind of, um we we look at racism. I mean, i I look at the DNFs I've had in races and um and think a one before mba I I've done probably 60 plus ultras. I had one before MDS when I pulled a hip flexor. I had the Cambodia. I had a recent one when David Wood's 50, after Ireland where my knee just went and I needed to get back for the treadmill. But then the only other one I've had, so I've had four, was in Cormaya and Grandchild Cormaya. And I was doing 105K.
00:20:21
Speaker
and you cross the finish line at 75k because there's a 75k race. And I did not feel safe on those trails. And it being very slippy and I was basically, it was night and I was going to go up into the mountains again on very technical trail that's not possible to train on around here for another 30k with no views because part of the reason to your mountain race is to get the views. yeah um And I was, I just felt very uncomfortable and unsafe. And I just called my husband and go, I'm going to DNF.
00:20:50
Speaker
i've I've had my great day out in the mountains. yeah I'm not comfortable. Is this the right decision? He's like, of course it's the right decision. You're not here to win the race. You're here to have a great time. And I wish I'd done the 75K and not the 105, because you don't get a medal. You do it. And then I'm like, I don't get a medal. It's not about the medal, but it was about like, you know, kind thinking about myself and going, why am I here? What's the purpose? um It wasn't to do 105K. It was to have that experience and, um,
00:21:19
Speaker
I had the confidence just to say no more and pull myself out. And I think I'm much more careful now about what we do, what I choose to do and what I put myself through. And we think about Ireland, some of the roads that I was running on were absolutely frightening. um Mostly it was country roads, but there were trucks going 100k an hour and I had Kate Strong protecting me on a bike and she shouldn't be putting herself out there. And it was a small part of it. but If I look at obvious things to do next, everyone's like, why don't you do juggle? And it's like, no, I've got, you're running on the side of A roads. I've got three small children. That's not something that I think I should be doing. um That's not in my kind of risk tolerance anymore. So there's definitely a new lens. I look at things as to, you know, what I should do, what I shouldn't do um because of my responsibilities, I think. Yeah. it i Yeah. it It does change things though. doesn't it motherhood for you you you do you do assess risk differently. and that That takes us on to my next question, because a lot of people will will know you from when you went viral at UTMB breastfeeding your, was three month old at the time? Yes, I remember seeing that photo and just, I'd never seen an athlete being a mother at the same time. and And that was really powerful to me. And I just thought, wow, but tell us about that experience from your perspective.
00:22:47
Speaker
Yeah. So I guess like, so the the pitch is at 50 miles into the race and I shouldn't have been there. Um, I'd lost a place. I'd had a place in 2014 when I, and I lost it cause I was pregnant with my first son. Yeah. And I think everyone knows that you have to get points and get, well, now you have stones as well as points. Um, and kind of then get lucky in the ballot. And it took another four years for me to get a place and they'd had a thing where you.
00:23:14
Speaker
if you don't get him two years running, you automatically get a place. um So I knew over a year in advance that I'd have this place and we wanted another baby. And I just thought, well, we'll get pregnant quickly and I'll have kind of a nine month or one year old on the start line. And we know that you don't press a button. And I think the first thing I looked up was when we got the kind of the two lines was like, how old would the baby be on the start and three months? And it was like, this is ridiculous. And they they wouldn't let me defer.
00:23:43
Speaker
And it took me five, four, five years after four years for them to allow deferrals five years to write into policy over fight after this photo. So, um, they are actually brilliant. They have the world leading pregnancy policy now. Wow. Yeah. We worked on machine races, um, for five years, which is wonderful. They're, they're brilliant partner now, but they said no.
00:24:02
Speaker
And I had the option, I paid for the race. um We booked a family holiday out there, and I thought, I'll do 10K. And I'll experience the start line, because this chamois is amazing that week. And that's all I'll do. And I don't know how my pregnancy's going to go, but I'm going to use this as a ah way. And I think it's what a lot of women tell me now, we fought for pregnancy deferrals in a lot of major races, is they just have that in the diaries, just something to kind of keep them motivated during pregnancy to stay as active as they can be.
00:24:32
Speaker
um and then something in the diary afterwards to look forward to. So I stayed fit, I stopped running early um because of my pelvic floor wanting to protect that about five months. Lots of hiking, lots of stair master, lots of biking and had ended up really realizing at six weeks, some weeks postpartum I could run and and it was okay. And then thought, well,
00:24:57
Speaker
I'm going to go on the start line. And then I called up a coach. I actually called up my old coach, probably written, and who coached me spotathlon. And he said, he should not be doing this. He's absolutely right. You should not be running 106 miles in the mountains with a three month old baby. I would not recommend it.
00:25:13
Speaker
It was not the best thing to do, but um he recommended Edwina Sutton. He also taught me not to do it, um but she's phenomenal. And um she's been my coach ever since actually, and got reran that race. And the goal was never to get to the end until my three, then three-year-old said he'd seen all these parents with their kids running down the finish line of that the races earlier in the week. He said, mommy, that's going to be us. And I was like, oh no. So I had no choice, but it's halfway. and It's just, I think it just, ah the picture speaks to so many people because it's about how hard it is to combine being an athlete or anything outside motherhood and that we do deserve to have our goals and we do deserve to be supported. And how much more complicated everything is because he was only breastfed. So I had 16 hours without him, like squeezing out my boobs behind trees, down toilets. I was in so much pain. I had like a pair of watermelons attached to me. um And then I've got to pump and I've got to,
00:26:11
Speaker
and one side, feed in the other side, get fed myself and get back out there. And yeah, it wasn't easy. And I'd love to actually go and do UTME properly. I not have to spend all that time um pumping and expressing kind of and feeding babies, but it it it shocked me. I never expected it to, what to happen. And I just expected the race organizers to see the photo and go, yeah, she should have been allowed to do it the year after.
00:26:41
Speaker
yeah Yeah, but that of course it did lead on to, she races, didn't it? So so tell us about that then, what happened after the race? I think a lot of racers contacted me straight away and said, I can't believe we don't have a pregnancy to verify our policy. And it's because we've never thought about it because a lot of race directors are men, most of them are men. And a lot of them put them in straight away, like in Western states went in straight away, a lot of marathons. And then we had a kind of quite high profile campaign
00:27:12
Speaker
against London Marathon who were not allowing good for age places to defer. um And it was when there were two marathons in a year, there was one because of COVID. And yeah there was a lady that had a a place and she was gonna be allowed to run eight weeks postpartum, but not eight months, which was the deferral. And they were arguing that the closer you were to your qualification time, the more likely you were to repeat it, which would generally hold, unless you've had a baby in between.
00:27:41
Speaker
And you need to recover. And it's dangerous to ask women to do that. So we we finally won the argument. You still have to pay twice if you do London Marathon. So they still charge women who have babies twice for their places. ah Boston's sort of the same, but they allow the deferrals now. New York did the same, but they allow the deferrals. Chicago and Berlin are free, which is amazing, yeah and that we fought for.
00:28:03
Speaker
but like I kind of stick a step back and do you know, what it's not pregnancy deferrals. There are so many other barriers to women being on the start line. And it's just because races aren't equally designed for us. If there's a male race director, they're not thinking about period products. They're not thinking about t-shirts that fit us. They're not thinking about having an anti-harassment policy in there. They're not thinking about a diversity of imagery and us wanting to see women ah and men of all colors, shapes, sizes, abilities.
00:28:34
Speaker
to give us that confidence. They're not thinking about the language that they're using and going bitter big as bad as toughest could actually put off women from doing the race and the cutoffs because we're conditioned differently. um We have less confidence in our abilities from the age of five years old. Girls don't think they're as good at sport of boys. It's five years old and we've gone through that. So it was so many things and I thought I could do something about this with the platform I've been given. um So we put in so some research into what were are all the barriers, like really understanding a full diversity of women and just use some really basic guidelines for races. um And that became she races. And now it's kind of much bigger than me. And we have um just launched guidelines for triathlon as well for elite athletes. and Races are being accredited all over the world.
00:29:26
Speaker
um to the guidelines to commit to them, um getting more women on start lines. We worked with Abingdon Marathon last year and they got 66% more women on a start line in one year with no cost just by changing basic things. um So it's really exciting. It's crazy. i um It's really exciting. It's done so much and um yeah, great races that are signing up. making ba I mean, period products are becoming kind of more standard and I think The biggest thing that we've seen changing is women are empowered to speak up and go, hey, actually, I'm paying the same entry fee.
00:30:05
Speaker
why am I not getting an actual experience? um And we've kind of proven, we did some work with Threshold to prove that you make a lot more money as a race organiser from being more kind of incorporating the 51% a bit better. So yeah, it's it's crazy. i I mean, if you'd asked me what would happen at that photo and I'd be here now, and I'd be running for Great Britain, which is really crazy. yeah And I'd be setting world records. It's like an alien like kind of out of body experience. I think it's amazing. I've kind of found my calling life and and it's um it shows the kind of what very little resource and and just saying some sensible things um and getting kind of thousands of women to support you um can really do. Yeah so I mean if there's any race organizers listening listening to this you mentioned just making some basic changes to start where where can they start then? What sort of things can they do easily?
00:31:02
Speaker
Easily. So can we put them into the kind of three categories? So first is how to get more women on the start line. Look at your website. Um, often everyone uses a start line photo, which is generally the fast men.
00:31:15
Speaker
um And I get put off by the start line pictures. And and I'm fairly quick, but I was like, oh gosh, that looks a bit scary. So look in the imagery, look at the language you're using, look at the cutoffs, making sure they're evenly spaced. um I mean, Abingdon had a five hour cutoff, and that's the average marathon time for a woman. Wow, it is, yeah. That was the cutoff.
00:31:35
Speaker
It's now six hours and you can you've got over three times as many people finishing above that five hours. um So really thinking about those, um looking at kind of having a pregnancy to virus in place, looking at community, women love information. We want to know what's going on. We want to know kind of how we're going to get there for triathlons, especially you'd managing childcare. What time are you racking your bike? What time are you doing this? When will you be kind of done? um So all the information on the site. um And then on the race day, we need enough toilets. We like period products. and If it's triathlon or there's ah a long day, we'd like some changing facilities.
00:32:11
Speaker
And we don't want to be harassed. And our triathlon research found some really worrying things about athlete behavior. know We don't want to see men peeing right in front of us. There can be a rule that you step off the trail. I put the toilets in place. And then those t-shirts, all my t-shirts, I did a reel. And it fit they all fit me at 37 weeks pregnant. Wow. Yeah. My husband's got them. My kids have started to nick some of them.
00:32:38
Speaker
um And then and then it's the female race and I think understanding that there's two races going on and it's running so unusual that we mix the start lines and often you get the the the male winners like and the winner is yeah and then the women's winners like no no no there's two winners there's two races there's no overall they're the men's winner and we're the female winner not and making sure that you're splitting out the If I'm looking at trying to find the female podium, I don't wanna be looking down like a list. I wanna see, his here's the women's race. And the same kind of, I'm joking about kind of giddy bags early, but like kind of having equal prizes and equal categories and just considering it as a fair competition. It's not asking for much. And I think on social media, races often get it wrong and they don't realize, but once you see, you can't unsee. And that's the basic respect. and
00:33:30
Speaker
as we start working with elite athletes. And I sit on the Women's Committee for the Pro Trauma Association. um And if they're going to get the same sponsorship from their their sponsors and get the same money so we can grow that elite side of the sport, they need the same air time. So we just work with UTMB to make sure it really is 50-50 covering the men's race and the women's race. Because unless they get that coverage, they're not going to get the the rewards that they deserve. They're working just as hard as the men.
00:33:59
Speaker
physiologically, there's a 10, 12% gap that but is every single distance, um even kind of super ultra. People think that women are winning overall. It's just because better women are on average are entering the race because we're too nervous unless we're really good yeah its to do that. So it's so basic, but we just encourage race directors to to come and chat to us. um We genuinely just want more women on the start line and we answer lots of silly questions. I've answered what period products are before, how you buy them, what you buy them, how you take them to toilets. I mean, we go down to that level of detail. It doesn't matter. The main thing is that women are supported um and we get more women start lines and crossing finish lines. Cause I think the the underlying thread through all of it is we believe finish lines change lives. Yeah. Wow. That's yeah, that's powerful.
00:34:50
Speaker
And so, I mean, what kind of, when you've approached races to make these changes, what kind of resistance have you faced? and I was like, I kind of liked a bit of fly on the wall. Yeah. um I mean, Jen, generally we've had loads of races kind of the great racers approach ours and say, can we go through accreditation? Because they know that they put the logo on the race and we can support them to make sure their policies are right. And they know that.
00:35:16
Speaker
they make more money. And I gave a talk at the running conference about this and we could have put race directors in four kind of categories. And there's the ones that were doing all the right thing already. Yeah. Often it's a female race director. They often went communicating it properly. And I think what's important is braces, like, of course we say yes to someone like deferring for pregnancy, but then they have no deferrals for any reason on the website. And you've got to let women know, we we don't like to ask. um So that that's, the they were doing it already. Then you have the next group are like,
00:35:48
Speaker
of course, this is the right thing to do. No matter what it is, we'll do it because it's the right thing to do. um And they're really focused on kind of diversity in the start lines and the outreach programs. And that's the kind of another group that there's a lot of races like that.
00:36:01
Speaker
then you have the businesses and you're racers of businesses and we demonstrate that they'll make more money, they will make those changes. And that's been very, very powerful with the bigger race organization saying, look look at Abingdon, look at what, threat and it's brilliant to work with Threshold who opened up all their data and we run the fifty ultra 50-50 project with them. um They are so committed to women on the start line, especially in ultras and they just showed it. I mean,
00:36:27
Speaker
it was It was kind of, they they doubled the women and they increased the men as well through all the extra kind of communication and media that they got because of it. but And then we have the dinosaurs. um And I'm always in receipt of some kind of rude emails from people who, that there are people that don't care. Look, we know that that's out there. We know that there are kind of men that don't want women on the style or they don't want slower people on the style. I know they have this vision that their race is something that,
00:36:56
Speaker
you have to be a certain level to be able to complete, and they don't want that democratization of the sport. we've learned i mean we We put London Marathon into that bucket for a long time as we fought on the pregnancy deferral, and it's not worth the time, I think. I think the dinosaurs became extinct, and I think a lot of these races will, as they don't move with the times and Men want women on the start line. We realized with Ironman, when they split the men's and women's world championship, the men wanted the wind back women back. The women were quite happy about men. um it's It's just a nicer atmosphere. So we could put all our resource on trying to change those races. We don't have much resource. You know, we're we're a nonprofit or CIC, so we rely on donations. So we put it on the other races and try and shift it. And most importantly, try to empower women to know that these are the guidelines, these are things you can ask for.
00:37:49
Speaker
and get women to go to the races and just call it out. And eventually those races will realize that we need we need to move our sport in a different direction because it maybe used to look like something.
00:38:01
Speaker
But really, it's going to benefit from so many new people, kind of, especially when we look at an ethnic diversity on the trails. It used to be very, very white. We've got some great can organizations, kind of black guys. You've run, for example, Muslim runners coming through. We need that diversity. It makes our sport a better place. Yeah, absolutely. And so do you see progress happening fast enough or is have we still got a long way to go?
00:38:26
Speaker
Um, I mean, we I'd like to press a button and, and, and it changed overnight. I think my goal is, my goal is that she races doesn't exist. That's the goal. It has to be the goal that we don't need to be there working with the races to get more women because everything is equally designed through a female lens. We are seeing a lot of change and it's amazing to see things that aren't even she racist, racist, is just putting in place the basic period products that the female fit t-shirts, the splitting out the results, the looking at their kind of DEI policies and looking at active outreach. there' There's so far to go. There's obviously so far to go, but we are seeing that change and we are seeing brands um looking at who they're working with and what races they're working with and ah making sure that a lot of the big brands actually use our guidelines yeah in looking at their race sponsorship and say,
00:39:20
Speaker
Do these races meet these guys? If they don't, is that really a race we want to sponsor? So we love when we hear, we can often hear kind of secondhand that that's happened and that's great, but now we're going global. yeah What she raises is India um kind of working in that country. We've got, I think the last races we signed up are Uzbekistan, Turkey, um Hong Kong. So it's really going out. We work with the world trial majors and they all put the policies in place and that's going to feed you into those countries that have kind of even lower participation on their start lines, which is so exciting. yeah um And I think working with Protrail Brothers Women's Committee, kind of phenomenal elite runners from all over the world spreading the word. So it's the UK is ahead of a lot of other countries. I think we'll definitely, we're behind others like Australia, but it's amazing to see kind of some of these kind of principles being rolled out. And it's crazy that it all came from
00:40:16
Speaker
an accidental photo by an accidental photographer, Lexi Berg, that wasn't supposed to be there, but he was doing some kind of killing and pulled out the race because of the bee sting and it's bonkers. It's like a sliding doors thing. Yeah. And then now, yeah, now we have kind of like running our own event on the second of August, the women's trial series and had this age in the Pete district, the kind of first women's kind of trial event, um,
00:40:43
Speaker
Yeah, breaking down all the barriers and with the rear events. So and yes, everyone sign up to it. It's going to be amazing. yeah tell I'm glad to run it because I'll be on the finish line. Oh, amazing. Yeah, tell us all about it then. What's the route like? How far is it?
00:40:56
Speaker
So we've got 25k and 50k options and the whole point is that we're breaking down that kind of how you get into an ultra. So zero cutoffs, no no cutoffs, even for the 50k. There'll be an early start if you want it. It's designed to be hiked or walked and just taking away that fear that many women have that they won't finish in time.
00:41:16
Speaker
you can walk the whole thing the speed you want to if you're moving forward we're going to get you to the finish line or you can race as fast as you want knowing that kind of there's no men in the way you can actually see the female race which is exciting um but yeah it's it's just going to be the most supportive thing fully marked We need lots of work with them on on the mapping and make sure everyone's comfortable with the route. um It's just gonna be joyous. I mean, it's gonna be mad. I mean, can you imagine the the volume at the start line is just gonna be crazy? um But i'm so I'm so excited. I think it's just gonna be a really wonderful day out and I think a chance to learn and hopefully we can do some more kind of science studies and feedback amongst the women there. But yeah, so area events are ah absolutely brilliant.
00:41:58
Speaker
um race to race organizers. yeah um They have, I think, the best safeguarding policies in the UK that they've proven on kind of dragons back. So we're really pleased that we're working with Shane and his team to to deliver this. And yeah, I'm i'm just really excited. I kind of i was i did the She Ultra and I stood in the finish line for seven hours last year just meeting everyone and seeing how that finish line had changed their lives for people that kind of weren't runners or yeah can have done a 5K, but they're going to hike and they're going to run run walk a bit and then walk a bit and yeah I'm i'm just going to be in tears all day so I'm really excited and hopefully we can then kind of bring it to a wider series. um The big thing for me was that it was public transport from major cities so we're kind of public we're it's short train ride from Sheffield short train ride from Manchester
00:42:48
Speaker
Um, the starts 500 meters in the train station. It's about 12 running is quite inaccessible. Um, and so every time we have a location next year, it will be close to public transport. You can get to and from in a day, um, especially for the 25 K options. So, um, yeah, we did a lot of research on women only races and why we wanted them. And, and I think a lot of people love running mixed races and I love running them, but that women only atmosphere is, is going to be really special.
00:43:17
Speaker
Yeah, it'll be nice to have that space, won't it, with but just for just women. It'll be amazing. I think one of the things about kind of races is actually kind of the start line and it can be quite a stressful place to be. And when I did TDS um last summer, the UTMB race, you know, it was 90% men and and we were penned in for 20 plus minutes before the start and more men kept jumping over the fence to get close to the start. And it was so physically uncomfortable and I think that's what in our kind of research puts a lot of women off. Some of the mixed events is you have that start line crush and it's it's not comfortable. um Having women's only event, knowing that you've got a bit more space and start line, I know you can start a bit early, a bit later. I think it's a great start into the events and it's about breaking down that kind of worry of kind of,
00:44:09
Speaker
what's it like kind of that really comfortable first time trying something that then women say we have the confidence to go into a standard event afterwards um and for some of it it's just the joy of um being kind of all women and the conversations you can have. And it will be all talk about pelvic floors and babies and menopause and everything that we want to chat about and how you weave behind a cushion. We can just let our guard, I think you just let our guard down. um And it's just just such joy to be able to do that. We don't get to do that very often, not on the trails. So I'm really excited about some of those conversations and some experiences that women are going to have on at the trail events.
00:44:48
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I hope it goes really well. Just reminders of the dates. The 2nd of August in Hathersage, which is in the Peak District, um close to Sheffield and Manchester on the train. um And you sign up on shoebassistrailseries.com. Great. We'll put a link in our show notes to that. So just just to finish off, Sophie, what can male runners out there do to help women feel more comfortable in those mixed races? Because we've talked about race directors.
00:45:15
Speaker
How can runners as a general you know as a general community help women feel more included and and you know safe? ah there's so There's so much the men can do and um really we we need those allies and we have amazing allies. and um kind know I recorded something recently with them with with Neil Thrasher just on the trails how he didn't realise there's a big guy dressed in black he was actually quite intimidating. And so kind of men just dressing in a bit, if they're out just running, dressing in a bit of color, calling out, you know, kind of passing on your right and then just giving you a bit of space. It's just something in general that can be done. And it's not men's fault that they don't know if they haven't been told because you can't know what it these feels to be a ah woman and and feel vulnerable unless you you are. um But at races, it's about thinking about a bit about personal space.
00:46:08
Speaker
Um, it's about support. It's not about mansplaining and assuming that we don't the amount of times I'm going to start line. And, and, a and a guy tells me how to kind of pace my race and often then his mate goes to him, do you know who Sophie is? Um, that's always really fun. Um, but I think, I think it's, it's how you respect for us as runners. And if you kind of, if we're running.
00:46:32
Speaker
on our own, ask to buddy up. um Not a lot of people just sitting behind you and take your pace rather than saying, do you mind? um That's always something that's really kind of respectful to do to anyone. um And if you see, you know, us being harassed, you know, support us if one of your mates is catcalling or one of your, because someone you're running with is, is inappropriate, inappropriate.
00:46:53
Speaker
please support us, please call it out. and Sometimes we find it, in a women report, we find it difficult to advocate for ourselves and as to speak up. um And sometimes we need that. So I think it's just basic respect, but I think a lot of men, we've never had the platforms to talk and say, this is our experience as a woman. I think the triathlon research that we published brought a lot of that out um as to what's inappropriate and the aggressive overtaking on the bikes and kind of trail running has nothing. I mean, I've been pushed off trails. I've been kind of had people kind of try and get past me. It's not great. It'd be far worse if I was going fast on a bike. yeah um yeah But are we really appreciate it. We have so many amazing male allies um and the trail running community is so friendly. It's just some tiny things that if people are more aware of for everyone else,
00:47:44
Speaker
um We can make it a better community for everyone. Yeah, i think yeah but that's a good that's a good place to finish, isn't it? so yeah Thank you so much for your time, Sophie. thanks what's What's your next challenge then? What are you planning next? I might run a marathon. Oh, wow. I know. one This this is absolutely frightens me to the core, the idea of of not eating cake on the way round and the people not talking to each other and and it being really fast. But I think I have to adjust. I'm hoping to be selected for the world championships, the 24 hour in France in October. And I've got to work on my weaknesses. And my weaknesses is my base speed. And so I'm looking at doing cork marathon, which is a shoe races race, um brilliant organization, brilliant female friendly race. So, and it's where my husband's from.
00:48:37
Speaker
So hopefully you didn't court marathon at the end of May. I'm doing a bit of high rocks on holiday just to kind of try and get that kind of base speed up as an excuse. um But then next year they won't be world champion until it's 24 and I am very much planning another big adventure. Oh well, well we will we will we will wait to hear what that is. Yeah, exciting.
00:49:00
Speaker
So yeah, thank you so much for your time, Sophie. It's been really fascinating talking to you and hearing all your stories. And I wish you all the very best with She Races. I think it's a really important campaign. Brilliant. Thanks so much for your support. Yeah, thank you. We'll see you on the next episode.