Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Menopause
51 Plays4 months ago
All three sisters are back in the states and getting back into their routines. High School has started in Nashville and school starts in Los Angeles next week. Nancy recounts a long travel day and Kathy sent the kids and the dog home in a separate car and stopped to enjoy 48 hours in a hotel room in Wisconsin with her husband.
The girls do a deeper dive into women’s health this week and specifically about what no one really talks about or prepares you for….menopause. They share secrets on what it’s like, what to expect and how to best cope.
Cooling Bracelet
https://www.hotgirlspearls.com/products/ivory-champagne-bracelet
Handheld Fan
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BRKHTYZG?psc=1&ref_=cm_sw_r_em_ud_ct_AZB78AART3HTM3E69WM5_1|
Bona Fide
https://www.hellobonafide.com
What’s For Dinner:
Donna’s Chicken Cutlets
12 thin sliced boneless chicken breasts (scaloppine)
3-4 eggs
Splash of milk
Flour
Progresso Italian bread crumbs
Extra virgin olive oil
Roll out parchment or wax paper and place 4 breasts on it. Salt and pepper each side. Add another piece of paper on top. Pound out the breasts with a mallet. Fold up the sheet with the four cutlets and place in the refrigerator.
Repeat until all the breasts are pounded.
Pre heat oven to 350 degrees.
Prepare a flat baking sheet with aluminum foil.
Set up three bowls on the counter.
Ist bowl has flour. 2nd bowl has 3-4 eggs whisked with a splash of milk. 3rd bowl has Italian bread crumbs.
Start by coating each breast in flour, then the egg mixture and lastly bread crumbs. Continue until all are coated.
Heat about 1/4 - 1/3 cup of extra virgin olive oil in a large fry pan on the stove (cast iron or enameled preferred over a non stick pan).
When a drop of water sizzles off the oil, the oil is hot enough. Turn heat to medium high.
Place four breasts in the skillet and sauté each side til golden brown.
Place sautéed breasts on the flat baking sheet.
Add extra oil if needed and repeat with remaining cutlets.
When all the chicken cutlets are sautéed, place the baking sheet in the oven and cook for about 20 minutes or til insides of cutlets are no longer pink.
We want to hear your comments and questions! Send an email to 3lfpod@gmail.com or leave a comment on our Instagram @3lfpod and be sure to follow us on our YouTube page www.youtube.com/@threelilfishes
Recommended
Transcript
Nighttime Antics and Podcast Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Peter will be like, you are a nightmare at night because you steal the covers, you pull them on you, then you take them off, then you end up with them on the floor, then you toss and turn. He's like, I don't know what you're doing. I'm sweating to death. That's what I'm doing. As we age, we can't still enjoy our lives to the fullest. So Take care of all the parts so that you can be this complete aging human and still have
00:00:32
Speaker
fun on every level. Welcome to Three Little Fishes, where three sisters who grew up in the Midwest together but have since spread across the country. I live in Los Angeles. I'm in Nashville. And I live in Philadelphia. We are all married with children. We've all had careers, but now we stay at home with our families. We've all been through ups and downs that come along with life and have always helped each other through share stories and laugh together. We welcome all of you into our daily conversations and hope you have some fun with us. So let's jump in.
Engagement and Listener Encouragement
00:01:10
Speaker
Hello, we are the three little fishes. So happy you joined us and found us. Please like and subscribe and comment to our YouTube channel or wherever you're getting your pods.
00:01:23
Speaker
Um, okay. Y'all let's jump in this morning.
Travel Mishaps and Embarrassing Moments
00:01:27
Speaker
So I am back from being up north. Um, and I'm trying to get my sea legs back. So my travel home was hard. I ended up not getting home back to LA like until like four o'clock in the morning because we had all these travel delays and like a dingbat. I scheduled a mammogram for the the morning. I got back because I were you thinking.
00:01:54
Speaker
Well, I was really past due and I was trying to get in and this was the first appointment I could get. So I just took it. And so I am tired. So I have like two hours of sleep. I am dropping Riley off at practice in the morning, heading to get this mammogram. I'm delirious, but I'm doing it. I'm making this appointment. So I change, I get the robe on. You know, she does all the unpleasantness to my,
00:02:23
Speaker
My boobs, um you know, it's happening. It got done. And, you know, it's not fun. I go back into the dressing room and I see this big giant sign that I had to have seen or noticed when I was actually changing that said,
00:02:41
Speaker
You only have to take off your top. You may leave your pants on. what you do I was so delirious. I stripped down and just had my panties on. So this poor tech who is giving me my mammogram and squishy my boobs and all the things. I'm in my little panties, and I'm sure she's like, what is this crazy person doing that she does not have pants on for this mammogram? I was horrified, horrified, and I wonder what's wrong with my brain that I thought that I had to take off my pants to go have this. Let's go with, you had a dress on. You had a sun dress on.
00:03:26
Speaker
I think it's fine, Nancy. It's fine. I'm sure that's not the worst thing they've ever seen. I mean, is it? I was like, you could have been completely naked. Yeah. I mean, yes, I guess I could have. I i remember it to keep on my panties. So I guess that is a good thing. So so how is everybody else doing?
Back-to-School Schedules: Regional Differences
00:03:52
Speaker
um Good. We're back at school. I mean, our youngest is best started a school on Monday. It's bananas. Oh, I did not realize that. Oh my gosh. How's it going? ah We had a whole debacle about schedules. We got it all worked out, I think. So it's going to be fine. But it was a rough couple of days. Let's start to the week. um Oh, and day one, he was late to school.
00:04:20
Speaker
um i doesn't go off I mean, I had a serious conversation like, listen, we're not paying for college. If you can't get your butt up and go to school on time, like I'm not doing this. So the last two days, three days, he has been on time. But I was like, what are you doing? What's wrong with you? A little senior, a little senior it is day one, little senior it is, I would say. Yeah, that's crazy ass here.
00:04:51
Speaker
We don't even start school till after Labor Day, like a month later. I wish. You know, I think because we live in the South and it's so hot here, they start school. We have air conditioning back in Chicagoland. We didn't have air conditioning, so we started school a little later. But I mean, I don't know. I don't love it. I wish we started in September and I wish we ended at the end of May. I wish we were the same. We start next week, too. We start next Monday. It's too early.
00:05:21
Speaker
yeah oh no so we're in I don't like that.
Travel Chaos from Canada
00:05:26
Speaker
I don't like it either. So Kathy, I see you're home too. So yes, I am home. Leaving Canada was sad. And our travel was long too, because we kind of did straight through. um And I had kind of we care van with the kids and my kids actually had friends. So we are trying to like help them get partway across the country because the friends flights got canceled.
00:05:59
Speaker
so I am where i and'm very much aware of those flights because we were on the same flight. yeah thank Thank you, Delta. So they unfortunately had to drive with my kids home to Pennsylvania, which is like a 22 plus hour drive. So they were not thrilled.
00:06:20
Speaker
So my husband and I caravan with them till Wisconsin, till Madison, Wisconsin, because we had to kind of break off and go to a wedding. So we at least made it halfway for them, which I felt better about that we were at least had our eyes on them if they had any trouble, because they were also trailering a boat, which was great.
00:06:42
Speaker
Like I was just worried. Oh my gosh, they're going to have a flat tire like we did, you know, years ago or something's going to happen. But and then they also had our puppy, which I also was thinking this is not going to go well. Like these kids are not even going to talk to one another or me when they get home, because there's going to be so many issues. But it ended up actually the dog was just like fine, which surprised me. So.
00:07:11
Speaker
Right. Well, she was a lot on your trip up, but she's a month older, you know? Yeah. So that's a big deal in dog years, dog time. And no trailer problems either. So I was very happy. They all got home safely and we made it to Wisconsin and I was exhausted and Peter and I, we stayed at a hotel for a few nights by ourselves and it was lovely.
00:07:36
Speaker
I mean, I don't even know what that would be like these days. I'm like jealous of that. A hotel room by yourself for two nights. Like, that sounds delicious.
Alone Time in a Hotel
00:07:46
Speaker
It actually was pretty nice. I think we both were so tired that I think just sleeping was like nice to just be asleep. Yeah. um not In air conditioning. Nothing says you're like in your late 50s when you're like, hey, and we're in a hotel by ourselves. Just sleep, honey. Just sleep. but Well, I mean just even having air conditioning cuz in at the cabin we had no air and it was so hot and we were all sweating and I normally am a person that does not sweat but now that I've aged know I have ah periodically been hot sleeping which is a sign that I'm like
00:08:31
Speaker
metopausal or whatever, peri-metopausal, because there are times that I wake up and I'm like, my pajamas are drenched. And Peter,
00:08:45
Speaker
And Peter will be like, you are a nightmare at night because you steal the covers, you pull them on you, then you take them off, then you end up with them on the floor, then you toss and turn. She's like, I don't know what you're doing. I'm sweating. I'm sweating. I'm sweating to death. That's what I'm doing. No, I never realized it.
00:09:12
Speaker
Like when it first started happening, I think I didn't really understand what was going on. I thought I just was hot and we needed to like turn up the air conditioning. But it is a sign that like the menopause, which is kind of what we're talking about today. Yeah. Well, we keep our bedroom at night at 67.
00:09:34
Speaker
Oh, oh, that is chilly because I normally have cold like during the day. I don't have any problems. It's more like at night. Yeah. And so, um, yeah, Peter and I've had some interesting conversations about it. Yeah. Talking in the middle of the night is not great either ever.
00:09:58
Speaker
I do that too. Those sometimes we're all like kick a foot out. I'll kick kick a foot back in, I'll kick a foot out of the covers, I'll put them back in. I noticed these days that i I am definitely getting to be perimenopausal and my sleep is affected. Like I definitely am not sleeping like I used to, like I wake up an awful lot. So I feel like I'm constantly tired, which I don't think is great for anybody to in my house for me to always feel tired.
Unveiling Menopause: Symptoms and Experiences
00:10:29
Speaker
yeah i mean when you felt When you feel tired, it's awful. Like I actually did not sleep well the night we got back because my dog had to go to the vet for the day after we got back and she got all these vaccines because she was finally old enough to get them and she had a rough night and she got me up a couple of times and I was like, oh my gosh, this is like for the birds.
00:10:56
Speaker
I will say like just a little side note that Millie, your puppy, your black lab puppy is the cutest thing ever. And when we first got, when I first was spending time with her in Canada, I'm like, I might need one of these. I might need to do it. My dog Coco might need a pet, might need a friend. And after spending, you know, time with her for more than just a couple of days, I'm cured of the puppy. It's like a baby. I want to visit, but I want to like give it back. Yeah.
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah. for You know, honestly, I think she might be in like, I wouldn't say depression, but since we've been home, she's like, what the hell? Like, like so where did the water go? Where's the free raid to like wrap around?
00:11:45
Speaker
and It's like we have her, you know, walled off in our kitchen and her crate area, and then outside she's not a able to go outside by herself because we don't have a fence. Right. And so I called yesterday the Invisible Fence People because I was like, when I was at the vet, the vet told me she actually is old enough that they could probably start training her on it.
00:12:08
Speaker
So I was like, OK, I got to call them. So I got it scheduled. So they're going to come out tomorrow and help her. But I think she feels like she's in prison here.
00:12:19
Speaker
you like Well, it's a totally different ballgame than being up at the lake and having, yeah you know so and know, explore everywhere. Yeah, she's a doll. I don't know anybody, you know, I think we're all adjusting and being back. I think, you know, it's when you're on vacation for a long time, it's like totally a different regimen, right? And now we're in real life again. And it's like, Oh, we have stuff we have to do. So we're all adjusting. I actually am a little sad this week myself, just because I'm like, Oh, yeah. I got a lot of chores to do stink. I know. I'm the same way. Oh, and you know it's also good to get back and like reconnect with all your friends. and Yeah.
00:13:07
Speaker
You know, I've gone out and- Yeah, I need to do that. I'm going for a walk with a friend on Friday, but I need to connect with some more people and figure it out. Yeah, that sounds nice. It does. So I was telling you, our topic today is just, you know, menopause and peri-menopause and kinda, we wanted to talk about it just because it's something people don't talk about.
00:13:35
Speaker
I know it's weird. People don't like tell you, oh my gosh, you guys, this is coming up and right. You know, there are things that are going to happen and you're going to be like, what is happening to me? And nobody he talks about it. It's weird. It's interesting, too, because we also it brought up because we had comments from.
00:13:54
Speaker
listeners who said Nancy's imperial menopausal and I must admit, I don't know what I was complaining about, I don't remember, but I must have been heat, or maybe my mood. But even up north, Kyati was like, Nancy, what's wrong with you? You used to let things like roll off your back and now you're like more sensitive. And I was like, my kids are saying that, that they think that I'm more edgy, which I don't want to be because I've never been edgy.
00:14:19
Speaker
So it just has got me thinking that I need to kind of be mindful of my mood as I'm definitely, you know, clearly I'm having some changes. And it's weird to kind of try to figure out my new body and chemistry as
Personal Peri-Menopause Journey
00:14:33
Speaker
I'm moving forward. I think, I think for me too, I'm surprised because I kind of said it last week, I think, but a year ago, I'm coming up on a year almost, I had to have a hysterectomy. And before I had my hysterectomy, I felt terrible. I was like hemorrhaging, I had headaches. I physically felt terrible to the point where I couldn't, we had to do, this was my last alternative.
00:14:59
Speaker
And I was really struggling with making that decision. But then I was like, OK, I'm going to get this done. And I'm going to feel amazing. My mood is going to be great. I'm physically going to feel wonderful. like it's gonna just and you know So it kind of did. like Physically, I feel better. My headaches are gone. I'm not hemorrhaging, which is great. But now I'm noticing I'm not sleeping as well. My mood, but apparently, is like,
00:15:25
Speaker
is something I had to be mindful of. So now it's just like, ah, you know, I just am I feel like I'm on this like crazy road that I don't understand. I don't understand the the the landscape of it as I'm trying to like figure it out.
00:15:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think menopause could be tricky and I just kind of wanted to go over just a little brief like summary of kind of what it is. So listeners, you know, are listening to and are wondering, am I going through this? Menopause happens, you're technically in menopause 12 months without having your period.
00:16:07
Speaker
um And it's usually the average age is like 51, but it can be in your 40s and later in your 50s. It kind of just varies, but that's about the average age. um And just some symptoms to be aware of. Our mood changes, Nancy.
00:16:27
Speaker
like You know, things don't roll off your back or you feel very irritable like PMS. That is like menopause, um irregular periods, vaginal dryness, hot flashes, chills, sweats. The big thing is sleep, sleep disturbances.
00:16:50
Speaker
weight gain, which is not cool, and thinning hair, which I don't have, but that is also not cool. um But perimenopause is kind of like... you know, right before menopause and it's more like you'll start to notice your periods are more sporadic. You'll maybe go a couple months, then you'll have a period and then you won't have a period again. You're like in that phase of it starting to happen to
Humor and Menopause
00:17:20
Speaker
you. So yeah those are just things to be mindful and I was thinking I was looking at like
00:17:28
Speaker
on a Google and it made me think of you, Nancy, because I was looking at Pinterest and they were talking about funny jokes about menopause and this one came up from, it's from some e-cards and it says, the quote is, just so we're clear about this, I'm under no obligation to stay in the same mood for any length of time. So I think, you know, like I can get moody So around myself, I always had PMS as a teenager. And I think now, when I'm kind of in that stage, I get kind of PMSC, but I do also get the night sweats. And so my doctor put me on like a, I'm basically on a birth control patch. And I've been on it for like almost,
00:18:23
Speaker
two and a half years now. And that's kind of controlling my emotions. But when I have my period, when I have, so the birth control patch is like, I take it for three weeks and then I'm off for a week. When I'm off for a week, I do have the night sweats.
00:18:39
Speaker
which is awful. And I have a little bit of the PMS and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm one of those people that I know if I were not on like any medication, like the estrogen, I think I'd be off the rails because I would be like constantly sweating and PMS-ing, which would be no fun for anybody.
00:19:03
Speaker
So I think I'm just one of those people. So I think eventually she's going to get me off this patch and I'm going to probably just go on like an estrogen progestin patch is what I suspect that she'll put me on. But, um, Linda, you always listen to that Leanne Morgan. She, she has a funny clip about menopause, right?
00:19:26
Speaker
She does. she talks about but ah She looks at the audience and sees she calls them all the pretty little young people, cute, and she'll be like, this is what you have to look forward to. You got the beagles in your bed, and then you're sweating up a storm, and you can't sleep, and you get all this middle. i used to be you know and She's like, I used to be so cute and fun and little.
00:19:52
Speaker
ah Now, this is what you have to look forward to. She's so funny. So listeners, you haven't listened to her. Look, look up Leon rhymes or not Leon rhymes. Leon Morgan. She is so stinking funny. she She talked on that clip about her hair. She's like, I get the night sweats and for you. My hair looks like chicken fuzz. I can't relate. I can totally relate to that. Like my hair. I'll be like, what in the heck just happened? Yeah.
00:20:20
Speaker
Yeah, not not a good look. No, it's not a good look for anybody. I mean, i do I agree, Kathy. I feel like it's one of those things like when I'm out having drinks with friends and we will we're all the kind of in the same 10 years of each other, and we're all going through kind of the same thing. And we'll talk at drinks, but it's not something that's normalized. And I feel like It's so silly not to support one another and give each other ideas about what works and what doesn't work and, you know, how to be more helpful in this phase of life because we all go through it. Yeah, it just seems like why don't we
Menopause Treatments: Listening to Your Body
00:21:01
Speaker
talk about this? I mean, I know there are some people that believe in hormone treatment, some people don't. I think, you know, people just have to decide what is right for them, um you know, as far as treatment goes.
00:21:15
Speaker
But I definitely think you need something if you're having a hard time, because I don't think anybody should go through and suffer, you know? yeah it's not like you it's Life is short. We don't need to be suffering for 10 years. And if you ever go to the doctor and they say, oh, this is just part of life, walk out. That person's not there to help you. There's no reason to go through life not feeling good.
00:21:41
Speaker
So for me, I don't do hormone replacement. I, Nancy, about your age had a hysterectomy, but I had so much estrogen that my doctor at the time was like, Oh, no, no, no, you can't have any hormones. Like you have so many hormones. There's nothing, you know? Right. So I started doing this sort of like natural thing and it's from this company Bonafide in um Europe.
00:22:10
Speaker
And it's just like an all natural supplement. And I've been doing that for 10, 15 years. And for me, that really helps. It doesn't completely eliminate all night sweats, but it's probably 95%. Like I really don't suffer at all. And then the other thing I do is I really do try to work out. You know, I try and eat a lot of whole foods and eat a lot of fiber and eat a lot of protein so that I think balanced nutrition, which we should all be doing if you're perimenopausal or menopausal or young or whatever anyway, I think kind of helps balance stuff out for me. But I have been very fortunate. I feel like I didn't have a lot of female problems until I almost bled to death. But
00:23:01
Speaker
Until that one time where until that one time I almost died, I literally had to be rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery. But just at one time other than that, I've been fine. So but to me this like holistic sort of approach is really worked for me. I do agree, Kathy, you got to find what works for you. And you do have to kind of keep trying things and talking to your doctors about it because there's no reason to suffer.
00:23:27
Speaker
But I would say, I would just really quickly circle back. Like we just joked about you almost like diet, like bleeding out. But I will say, and just like to throw it out to our listeners and not, um, I feel like your doctors weren't listening to you when you were giving symptoms at the time. they were And, um, they were, and then what they were doing was making things worse.
00:23:48
Speaker
So I feel like it's really important to make sure that you're listening, the caregiver's listening to you. So you don't get in a situation where in it's emergency and you're like bleeding out and having to have an emergency hysterectomy, which is what happened to you.
00:24:01
Speaker
right so right Right. Just make make sure that you're you're being heard by your caregiver, whoever that is. Yeah, I just think people need to you know be smart about their health care. And if they're having or going through this, they should make an appointment just to talk about what some treatment options are, what their symptoms are, because everybody is different.
00:24:25
Speaker
and yeah you know, you want to make sure that you're doing the thing that's best for your health.
Exercise for Pelvic Health
00:24:31
Speaker
So, um you know, and there's also just other remedies that you can do, like layering. They say avoid caffeine. Like, you know, you don't want to have caffeine when you're at night. Because that will, but you know what else too?
00:24:50
Speaker
i I ran into this when I was kind of researching menopause is kegels. Because some people have like urinary, yeah your pelvic floor kind of drops as you age. Yeah, you need to make sure you're doing your kegels is very important. Yeah, which also people don't tell you about. Right. So and you know, honestly, part of functional health is incorporating some jumping into your exercise regimen, which is tough if you have a like weak pelvic floor, but it does really help maintain your pelvic floor if you can do some jumping in your exercise regimen. I mean i really find that is super, super helpful. And it improves your sex life. like You want a strong pelvic floor. We want to still have intimate time with our significant others. and
00:25:44
Speaker
No, we're getting as we age, we can't enjoy our lives to the fullest. Right. So take care of all the parts so that you can be this complete aging human and still have fun.
00:26:00
Speaker
and i love Totally. Yeah. You know, um my friend Donna said to me, her biggest thing is exercise.
Community Advice on Menopause
00:26:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, with some her going through all of this just, it gets stressed out, it makes you stronger, it helps your bones and I feel like myself, personally myself, I love to exercise. It makes me feel better. And then um we had a couple other listeners that gave us some advice, like what they do.
00:26:36
Speaker
Once said, she plays her music. So music makes her happy. Get those endorphins going. I like it. She leans on love, reading, golf, cooking. She loves to spend time outdoors and eat cake occasionally. Eat, eat the cake. Eat the cake, I love it. And then another listener said, stay hydrated.
00:27:03
Speaker
is very important. yeah And that listener is a nurse, and I completely trust what she says. um And she said, also cut back on alcohol, it can affect your sleep. So, you know, I'm not cutting back on my alcohol, but...
00:27:22
Speaker
I think you That's a no starter for me. Yeah. But they um they also said, once said, they used a cooling fan as like a handheld fan, is ah something you can try. If you get one of those hot flashes, you can try a fan. And then there's like a cooling bracelet that you can put in the freezer and you wear it and it help can kind of lower your body temperature. So We put all both of those um ideas in the show notes, but those are um just some tips that some of our listeners gave us. So we are loving all your comments and giving us tips. Please continue to write into us and you all can email us. I'm just going to remind you of our email.
Contact Info and Dinner Chats
00:28:14
Speaker
It's 3LFPOD at gmail dot.com. 3LFPOD at gmail.com.
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's awesome. All right, y'all. So what is for dinner now that we're back into our normal lives? What do you guys got going on? So my husband's out of town. And when he's out of town, I make things that I know he's not going to like. So butter chicken is on the docket tonight. It's Indian. And the kids and I love it. But he his stomach can't handle it. so Oh, I see. Yeah, it's too rich, flavorful. Too flavorful. Is that what you just said? He can't handle the spices. No, he has like gird. So he can't. It's, it's not good for anybody. It's too comfortable. So we're doing better chicken tonight, which I'm looking forward to. Yeah. What about you guys? Yeah. Poor guy.
00:29:18
Speaker
I am doing leftover. We did pulled poor ah pulled chicken, barbecue chicken last night. We did sliders and we have leftover. And so today or tonight I'm going to make nachos with it. We're going to just have um barbecue chicken nachos for dinner. Oh, that sounds good. That sounds yummy. I am going to make my friend Donna's chicken cutlets.
00:29:45
Speaker
They're fantastic. I think that she has become a pro at this because she always had to feed the ski team in the winter. oh So she'd make chicken cutlet sandwiches for everybody. And it was a hit. So um we have enclosed the recipe in the show notes ah for you all. Thank you. It sounds good. i hope I'm going to try it. I'm going to try that recipe that you post.
00:30:14
Speaker
I love that. I'm going to try that too. That sounds really good and it sounds healthy. Yes. Well, you know, we're all supposed to be getting more protein in our diets. Yes. Right. but yeah um the Which I really am trying to do because I do feel like I don't need enough protein and I don't think my kids eat enough protein. Yeah. Getting the protein and um getting the protein in the fiber.
00:30:42
Speaker
I think it's really beneficial as we age. So yeah, I'm going to try that. That chicken cutlet recipe sounds really good. Thank you, Donna.
Closing Remarks
00:30:51
Speaker
so
00:30:55
Speaker
We want to thank you for listening to our podcast and letting us sisters jump into your day. Make sure to follow, rate and review us. We want your feedback. Have a good rest of your summer. I know there's only a couple weeks left for some of you anyway. Have a great week and weekend. Sisters out.