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EP618: Dr Jennifer Nash - How To Win The War For Talent - Care About People
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“When you focus on your people first, everything else falls into place. Take care of your people, they'll take care of your business.”
Are you tired of the traditional command-and-control leadership style that seems to stifle creativity and limit potential? What if there was a different approach that could elevate both your team and your business?
A fresh perspective on leadership and how embracing a more human-centered approach can unlock higher performance, retention, and success.
Breaking free from outdated leadership practices and shifting toward a model that prioritizes people over profits, ultimately benefiting both. Discover how this transformative way of thinking can help your organization win the war on talent and thrive in a post-pandemic world.
Dr. Jennifer Nash is the author of Be Human, Lead Human, and a thought leader in leadership transformation. With decades of experience across industries, Dr. Nash helps organizations reframe their leadership strategies, transitioning from rigid hierarchies to a more facilitative and coaching-oriented approach. Her expertise has helped countless companies reimagine how they lead, innovate, and retain top talent.
Expert action steps:
- Don’t be afraid to be yourself in a workplace.
- Trust first to get trust.
- Make people feel they matter.
Book: Be Human, Lead Human
Websites:
Dr. Jennifer Nash: https://drjennifernash.com/
Human Leader Index: https://drjennifernash.com/hli
HLI Masterclass: https://drjennifernash.com/humans-masterclass
Visit eCircleAcademy.com and book a success call with Nicky to take your practice to the next level.
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Transcript
Leaders Embracing Team Contributions
00:00:03
Speaker
I help clients solve their most pressing people problems. I help them think differently about how they practice leadership. Leaders think that they have to have all the answers. What if it was okay to not have all the answers and to look to the people around you and to your team?
00:00:20
Speaker
It's not possible today for someone to know every single thing about the business. So when we leverage that common knowledge and we leverage the abilities of the people around us, we all improve our performance. And I offer that when you actually focus on your people first and you put them first, that everything else falls into place. You see them in the market because they are the market leaders.
00:00:42
Speaker
They are the ones who are winning the talent war. They are the ones who are winning on all these different KPIs and OKRs that you have to show that your business is outperforming the rest of the competition. you know The people that aren't adopting this way of thinking and aren't adopting these practices, they're stuck in the past.
Introduction to 'The Thought Leader Revolution'
00:01:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Thought Leader Revolution with Nikki Ballou. Join the revolution. There's never been a better time in history to speak your truth, find your freedom, and make your fortune. Each week, we interview the world's top thought leaders and learn the secrets of how they built a six to seven figure practice. This episode has been brought to you by eCircleAcademy.com, the proven system to add six to seven figures a year to your thought leader practice.
00:01:36
Speaker
Welcome to another exciting episode of the podcast, The Thought Leader Revolution. I'm your host, Nicky Baloo. And boy, do we have another exciting, emerging thought leader here for you.
Jennifer Nash's Career Journey
00:01:48
Speaker
Today's guest is the author of the book, Be Human, Leave Human. I'm speaking, of course, of none other than the one and the only legendary Dr. Jennifer Nash. Welcome to the show, Jennifer. Thank you so much for having me, Nicky.
00:02:03
Speaker
Great to have you here. So Jennifer, tell us your backstory. How'd you get to be the great Jennifer Nash?
00:02:10
Speaker
Well, i so I grew up in Michigan and I spent the first part of my career working in the automotive industry. And then I transitioned over to professional services. And then for my third act, I decided to become an entrepreneur. And so here I am in my thought leadership phase, writing books and sharing that information with the world.
00:02:33
Speaker
That's fantastic. So tell me, Jennifer, tell me about your area of thought leadership.
Collaborative Leadership Models
00:02:38
Speaker
What exactly is it that you do to solve problems for clients? So I help clients solve their most pressing people problems. And to do that, I help them think differently about how they practice leadership. So for example, you know, we think right now that leaders, you know, leaders think that they have to have all the answers.
00:03:02
Speaker
Well, what if they didn't have to have all the answers? What if it was okay to not have all the answers and to look to the people around you and to your team to help you figure out you know some of the answers to these complex problems that we have? It's not possible today for someone to know every single thing about every little thing that the business is operating in and doing. That's just not possible. So when we leverage that common knowledge and we leverage the abilities of the people around us, we all improve our performance.
00:03:32
Speaker
That makes sense. That makes sense. So why is this important to you? What's the debt you're looking to make in the universe?
Meaningful Work for Younger Generations
00:03:39
Speaker
The debt I've been looking to make in the universe is to help people have a better experience at work. You know, we see from our younger generation in the workplace today that they want meaning in their work. They want purpose in their work. They want their work to make a difference and they want to matter. And the way that our organizations are set up with leadership,
00:04:00
Speaker
they don't tend to focus on those things. They focus on the numbers, they focus on the profits, they focus on the top line and the bottom line. And I offer that when you actually focus on your people first and you put them first, that everything else falls into place. You know, that just seems almost axiomatic. It seems like, but of course, duh, right?
Resistance to Leadership Change
00:04:23
Speaker
Take care of your people, they'll take care of your business. So why do you think so many people don't get it?
00:04:29
Speaker
You know, I think there's a couple of reasons why people don't get it. I think first and foremost, the status quo is a very hard thing to disrupt. And so that, you know, second, I think people don't like change very much. So this requires that people think differently. And in turn, they act differently. And that's very hard for a lot of people.
00:04:50
Speaker
And I think the third reason is that, you know, systems are designed to um have a you know consistent type of status quo happening, right? And so when you have an outlier that is introduced into that system, typically the system will eject the outlier. And so until you get enough people thinking about it this way and practicing it this way, it is still a disruption to what is a normal practice.
00:05:18
Speaker
That's a very interesting thought. you know It reminds me, years ago, I saw Marianne Williamson do a talk in Toronto where I live. And she said that when a new idea is introduced into a society or an ecosystem, and I'd argue you know a corporate organization is a bit of a society on a smaller scale, you you first meet a lot of resistance.
00:05:45
Speaker
but Over time, there'll be people there that'll start to go, yeah, this is a good idea, but not very many. And it takes about 2% of the people in a society to buy into an idea for it to start to have um traction, you know, for people to go, okay, yeah, this has merit.
00:06:11
Speaker
And it takes a long time in certain cases to get to 2% of a society buying into the idea. But then she said the tipping point is when 11% of a society buys into an idea. That's when all of a sudden it transforms pretty rapidly. And she brought up a couple examples. One of them was civil rights in america right so she said from the end of the civil war 1865 right which was freed which was fought you know i would argue to free the slaves even though people said no it's about the union well you know preserving the union was about one side one and a half slaves the other sides didn't so it was to free the slaves or not to have slaves that's the bottom line it took a hundred years
00:06:53
Speaker
a hundred years for there to be enough people to buy into the idea that everybody really ought to be equal and you ought not to discriminate against somebody based on their skin color, right? Like 2% bought in. It took a hundred years to get to 11%, but then
00:07:12
Speaker
1960s come along and within two, three years, the Civil Rights Acts get passed, the Voting Rights Act get passed. And it seems like society had dramatically transformed almost rapidly.
COVID-19's Impact on Leadership and Work
00:07:23
Speaker
Do you think something similar is at play in corporations?
00:07:30
Speaker
I think that's a great question. So I think that each organization is distinct in how it chooses to operate. because each organization's culture is different. So we may see a couple organizations here and there who think, yeah, we believe in this. This is the way forward. This is what we want to do. And you see them in the market because they are the market leaders. They are the ones who are winning the talent war. They are the ones who are winning on all these different KPIs and OKRs that you have to show that your business is outperforming the rest of the competition.
00:08:07
Speaker
you know, the people that aren't adopting this way of thinking and aren't adopting these practices, you know, they're the ones that are stuck in the talent war. They're not winning the talent. They have high attrition. They have low engagement and they, they have not figured out how to move their organization forward. They're stuck in the past and particularly they're stuck prior to COVID because these leaders consistently say, Oh, I want to just go back to how it was prior to COVID.
00:08:35
Speaker
I want to just have things be normal in quote marks again. And unfortunately there is no going back to normal, you know, and normal is a code word for, we just want to have the power and control again. And we want to continue telling people what to do and have them do it. COVID was a Pandora's box. It opened that so that employees are like, wow, we have autonomy now. We have some voice.
Flexible Work Environments
00:09:00
Speaker
We're working at home, but we're able to now,
00:09:03
Speaker
decide when we start and when we stop and how we'd structure our day. And as long as we get our work done, there's nobody hanging over our shoulder telling us that we should do it differently. There's no micromanaging happening. But yet companies today are wanting to go back to that because there was an element of power in that, that they are missing. And there are a lot of leaders who aren't comfortable with not having that power.
00:09:27
Speaker
So what about those organizations that say people staying at home means that they they dog it. they don't They don't work as hard. And there's a lot of people, like I know a lot of CEOs. I got a lot of buddies who are CEOs and and the yeah companies. And they basically, every single one of them says, I want my employees back in the in the office. I don't want to work them working from home.
00:09:46
Speaker
And, um, they're enforcing that. I mean, you saw Elon Musk when he bought Twitter, right? Basically all the folks who wanted to work from home got exited and he's running Twitter with 20% of the workforce. So what about situations like that? Yeah. You know, I think, I think there's a, I think there's a time and place to be in the office. I think that there, there are things that are more beneficial when you're in person, right? You can't replicate an in-person conversation. You can't do it over Zoom. You can't do it over a phone call.
00:10:14
Speaker
There are things that just happen in person that can't be replicated over technology. So that I agree with. But is it draconian to have everyone in the office from nine to five every single day just because you want to make sure that you're you know benefiting on your um the sunk costs that you've made for that building and you don't want it to sit empty?
00:10:33
Speaker
Well, maybe there's a different way. Maybe it can be a hybrid approach. You know, maybe it can be an option where you allow employees to say, look, what works best for you? You know, here's what we're saying as a company. We want you in the office two or three days a week. Which of those days do you want to choose? Right. So still trying to give the employee a little bit of autonomy around that. And that'll go a long way as opposed to just the draconian like, you know, our friend Elon did with Oh, if you don't want to work remote, if you don't want to work in the office, then there's no place for you here. I think that's at the opposite end of the extreme.
00:11:13
Speaker
Well, you know, I read his his biography that Walter Isaacson wrote. I did too. And they're both they're both amazing men with ah a ah storied history of of of creating incredible breakthroughs for the world.
00:11:30
Speaker
and um you know i don't think i'd want to work for either one of them um would i want to would i want to like um be uh collaborating with them like if i was their coach or something like that or yeah 100 but to be directly under their control oh no hell no they seem like they would uh they would want to
00:11:55
Speaker
it It seems like them being in charge of human beings in some respects can bring out the worst in them and maybe even the worst in someone like me who doesn't like to be pushed around. ah So I totally can appreciate that. It's just not not not even Elon, or you know, I have friends of mine who are very um forward thinking in their approach to business. And they want to see their people succeed. But this whole idea of people working from home, they're just completely, adamantly opposed to it. And they're really pushing for their people to come back. I don't think they've been as drastic as Elon and said, you're fired if you don't come back. But they've made it
00:12:35
Speaker
very clear what their preference is you know with carrots and sticks to be honest not as far as firing but as far as you come into the office your life is and and your pro and your and your prospects are here you don't while they're here you know and that's that's that's a fact and i look to myself like if i were working for a corporation i'd probably be in business development or sales business development or sales, do I need to be in the office every day? Actually, probably not. Better off that I'm meeting with clients, that I'm in their offices right if I was in that kind of a role. So I hear what you're saying, it's powerful. So based on this, who is your kind of ideal organizational client? What type of company is a good fit for Jennifer?
Rethinking Leadership: Facilitation and Coaching
00:13:22
Speaker
So companies that are a good fit for me are companies that are willing to question the status quo.
00:13:29
Speaker
and companies that are willing to think a little bit differently about the practice of leadership today and what that looks like. You know, we see that there is an evolving role of a leader and it's moving from that command and control space to a facilitator and a coach. And so organizations that are willing to reconceptualize this idea of a leader as somebody who is more on the facilitator side and the coaching side rather than the dictatorial side and the commanding and controlling side, those are organizations where I see, there's ah there's a culture here and a mindset here that is more on the gross side rather than the fixed side. And those are organizations that I work well with to help them grow and evolve.
00:14:17
Speaker
So do you find that there's a way to have that model still hold people accountable for results and and sales growth and success? Can that be as effective as the old command and control way or what's the story there? I actually think it can be more effective because when you give people, yeah, absolutely. Because when you give people some skin in the game and you give people some agency over their choices and how they choose to perform and what they have to do, they will go above and beyond. It's when you demonstrate that you don't trust them and you take away their choices and you take away their voice that people aren' aren't inspired or motivated to perform. They're just going to, they're going to clock in at nine. They're going to clock out at five and go home and they don't care what happens because you've shown that you don't care about them. Yeah.
00:15:13
Speaker
Fair enough. That that makes sense. that makes sense you know People want to feel that they have some control and some agency, as you put it. That's a really nice way to put it. I like i like a previous phrase that you mentioned, and that phrase was winning the war on talent.
00:15:31
Speaker
And I thought to myself, wow, that's a really good, if I were to be packaging you as a thought leader, I'd have you be talking about winning the war on talent. I'd just say Dr. Jennifer Nash's podcast, Winning the War on Talent, talks about how you can win the war on talent and bring in those people. Because to me, that's very powerful. And that captures the essence of what's in it for companies.
00:15:54
Speaker
to work with you or to talk to you to read your book and all that good stuff i think that is that's going to speak to what's in it for me why should i speak to you rather than yeah that's nice okay sure be human lead human that sounds great but oh what you're talking about is i can get the right people okay now i'm ready to listen so that's really good and so yes Jennifer, based on all this, like how how do you attract these people that have these forward thinking ah views on winning the war on talent? So often I find that either they've they found out about my book somehow and they've read the book and they are coming to me to ask about what are different ways that we can work together. um Sometimes it's that they have found my human leader index online.
00:16:45
Speaker
which is on my website. And so they take that and they get an assessment for themselves of where do they fall, you know, on this continuum from being a command and control leader essentially to a coach and a facilitator, you know, in the leader of the future. And so they take that assessment, they look at where they are and then there's recommendations in there. And then they end up calling me to say, okay, I want to implement these recommendations as part of my growth plan. How do I do that?
00:17:13
Speaker
You know, say more about this human leader index, because I'm a big fan of tools like your human leader index. I have several of them myself that I employ in the work that I do with folks. So get into that a little bit more deeply. Dig into it, please.
Human Leader Index and Self-Assessment
00:17:26
Speaker
Yeah. So the human leader index, the version that's online is there's no cost to it. It's complimentary. And that is where the leader goes in or the individual goes in and takes their assessment and they self-assess on seven different dimensions.
00:17:40
Speaker
and they get a report that shows them where do they fall on that spectrum. you know Are they you know at the very beginning of their human leader journey? you know So in other words, they're using more of these command and control behaviors and thinking, or are they more on the opposite end where they're more in that you know evolved leader space where they're using a coaching approach to leadership, or they're using a facilitative approach to leadership. And so it gives them It offers reflection opportunities at each moment with throughout the assessments results. And then it gives them the opportunity to think about how do they want to integrate that into their leadership development plan going forward. um The paid version of the HLI is run as a 360. So the leader will take the assessment themselves and then they will nominate 10 to 12 people around them to take that for on their behalf.
00:18:37
Speaker
And then they get a report that compares the two results to show them how are they being perceived in the world? Because we know from research that typically, you know, we tend to perceive ourselves a little differently than others perceive us. And so this 360 is an opportunity for them to test that, see where there are gaps, and then integrate that into a leadership development plan. And that version is actually paid.
00:19:02
Speaker
I got to say that sounds both exciting and scary at the same time. Like I don't have all people in my company, but I run a men's organization, right? And if those dudes were were to all um take that, I'd be a little bit nervous about what everybody would say, but also be excited because it's an opportunity for growth.
00:19:21
Speaker
yeah exactly Yes, so Jennifer, if someone wants to take the free version, the freemium kind of model that you're using, where do they go get that? Yeah, so they can go right to my website. So actually, there's two places, Nikki. It's in the book itself, in a paper and pencil version that is just you know very analog. You just fill it out and tally all the scores yourself. But if you want to go online and take the upscaled electronic version,
00:19:52
Speaker
then the system tallies everything for you and gives you a beautiful 20 or 25 page report on your results. And that's on my website at drjennifernash.com slash HLI.
00:20:06
Speaker
drjennifernash.com slash HLI. Okay, that's pretty cool. We're gonna make sure that we put that on the show notes so people can access that. So Jennifer, we end off every episode by asking you the guest expert for your top three expert action steps. These are your three best pieces of bullet point advice for my listener.
Jennifer Nash's Leadership Advice
00:20:27
Speaker
What say you?
00:20:33
Speaker
So if I had to give your listeners three pieces of advice, I would say the first piece of advice is don't be afraid to be yourself in the workplace. And if that means that that is you looking a little different than other people or thinking a little bit differently than other people or um speaking a little bit differently than other people,
00:20:58
Speaker
embrace that. That's part of what makes you unique and it's part of what is your important value proposition to the world. um The second thing that I would offer to people is that remember that when you trust people first, you get trust in return and then you move forward together faster. I think that's the second piece I would offer. And the third piece I would offer is that
00:21:28
Speaker
Nearly everyone I talk to when they come to me for the coaching engagement, they say in some form or fashion, I want to matter. I want to know that my work is making a difference in the world. And so I would invite your listeners to think about how do you help people feel that they matter? And what do you do to show them that they matter? That's a fantastic question. Oh my God. That hit me right there. Boom.
00:21:58
Speaker
That was brilliant. Dr. Jennifer Nash, thought leader extraordinaire, the person who shows you how to win the war on talent, the person who shows you how not to lose the war on talent, and the author of the amazing new book, Be Human, Lead Human. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Great to have you here.
00:22:26
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much, Nikki. And you know what? I forgot to mention, I just launched my masterclass for the book. So that is available. If people are interested, they can go to my website and take a look for that. It's drjennifernesh.com forward slash humans masterclass. We'll make sure we put that in the show notes too. Thank you so much for letting us know about that. Listener. Thank you for having me.
00:22:50
Speaker
My pleasure. Listener, Dr. Jennifer Nash is the real deal. She's a thought leader extraordinaire. She's written a fantastic book. She thinks deeply about people issues, talent issues. And I got to tell you, whether you work by yourself or you're leading a team or part of a team, thinking about your fellow man and woman is important.
00:23:14
Speaker
to helping you not just be a better human being, but be a more successful professional in business. So make sure you go to her website, grab a copy of her book, and you check out her human leader index, the HLI. I think that sounds fantastic. I think I'm gonna go and I'm gonna take that HLI test. It sounds fantastic. And if you got something out of the episode,
00:23:42
Speaker
Leave us a rating, leave us a review. That helps us with the algorithm. And if you have a friend who you know would benefit from what you heard here, share the episode with them. Don't be a stranger. episode has been brought to you by eCircleAcademy.com, the proven system to add six to seven figures a year to your thought leader practice.