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#stillProtesting
23 Plays5 years ago
It’s our first episode, and we came to shake the table. #BLM, ‘Rona, mentorship in medicine, & LGBTQIA healthcare.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:02
Speaker
SNMA presents The Lounge is proud to be sponsored by Black Men in White Coats, an organization that seeks to increase the number of black men in the field of medicine by exposure, inspiration, and mentoring. So young brothers, we're talking to you. If you're on the journey to medicine or even considering it, visit blackmenandwhitecoats.org to get tips, tricks, and mentors. Now let's start the show.
00:00:44
Speaker
What's good, everybody? Welcome to SNMA Presents The Lounge. Whether you're in the student lounge, doctor's lounge, or lounging around at home, get ready to join SNMA for meaningful conversations on topics affecting minorities in medicine and groups that often sit at the margins of healthcare.
00:01:04
Speaker
SNMA aka the Student National Medical Association is the largest nonprofit organization for minority students in medicine.
Hosts' Backgrounds and Unpopular Opinions
00:01:14
Speaker
Sheesh, man, we turned 57 in a few months almost at 60 and we continue building holding it down since 1964. We needed a way to talk to our people faster and more engaging than email. So SNMA presents the lounge was born. All right. All right.
00:01:34
Speaker
Welcome to SMA Presents The Lounge. I'm student Dr. Aldwin. I'm from the Bronx, New York. Boogie down, you already know. New York all day, you know, we the best city, best borough. I'm from PCOM, Georgia. And my hot take, unpopular opinion, honestly, since I'm from New York, I gotta say Tekashi 6ix9ine is the hottest rapper right now. I don't care if he a rap, like he the lavas. So y'all can't tell me nothing. Hate me, love me.
00:02:01
Speaker
But that's the energy I'm feeling and he's putting on for the city. So I'm rocking with him from now. What's going on, everyone? I'm Isabella in Taboo. I am from Jersey. So, you know, I'm not too far from Aldwin. Okay, we're neighbors are right there. I'm an incoming M0 at the University of Pennsylvania, recent graduate from Howard University. So any pre meds out there, if you need any help regarding anything, you can definitely ask me any questions.
00:02:27
Speaker
My hot take, I would have to say, actually, no, this is more of an unpopular opinion, is that milk goes before the cereal, and that's on period. And I'm gonna just leave it at that. What's up, everybody? This is student Dr. Erica Dingle, hailing from Queens, New York. I currently attend St. Matthew's University School of Medicine on the beautiful island of Grand Cayman, and I am a second semester student. So my unpopular opinions,
00:02:57
Speaker
I think bubbly water is delicious. I love Mia Seltzer, unflavored. Let's see, what else? I could do without ribs. Yeah, I know, it's cool. And I'm also, also a diehard B fan. Stand up, be high. I'm rocking with Bays in Life. Shout out to RiRi.
00:03:28
Speaker
I'll take it, no worries. I love Rihanna. I could do Rihanna. We rocking with her. Oh my God. All right.
Recent Events Impacting Communities
00:03:38
Speaker
Are y'all ready? Because it's time to run the list. For our preclinical students, running the patient list on the wards allows the team to address pressing matters of the day. In this segment of the show, we'll be discussing some recent events in medicine affecting our communities and the populations we serve.
00:03:57
Speaker
You may or may not know, but we just came off our first virtual AMAT conference, the annual medical education conference in 56 years. In fact, we partnered with AMSA, the American Medical Student Association, whose immediate past president is also a member of SNMA. He'll be joining us later in this episode. So did y'all happen to attend this conference?
00:04:23
Speaker
I certainly did. And I had a great time just having the opportunity to connect with residencies during the virtual AMEC this year. I thought it was great. Also, they had a virtual speed dating event, as you guys may be aware of, right? Yeah, I mean, for a guy, you know, especially AMEC can be lit, so I enjoyed. Yeah, you love to see it. What you got next year, though?
00:04:47
Speaker
You got next year though. That's why we're going to be in Orlando next year for 2021. But then there was a whole host of great lectures. They had a lecture on how cannabis can physically affect people and manifest in terms of helping people with certain diseases and learning about the history of cannabis use in medicine. And it was just a plethora of things that just intrigued me. And that's why I love AMAC. I love going every year. I've been to Philly, Atlanta.
00:05:12
Speaker
I've gone to AMEC four or five times. And so the audience I employ, I come through to AMEC next year, show love. It's a way for you to connect, not just with other medical students, pre-med students. You can connect with residents, attendings. I've met people that I've personally interviewed. Yeah, it was dope. I attended a few sessions because I'm a member of both. And it was just cool to see organizations that are so prominently known.
00:05:38
Speaker
in our community, the Black community and other communities as well, just come together with the common goal of networking, trying to just get to know people to better ourselves and enhance ourselves in the medical field.
Dr. Cameron Webb's Political Journey
00:05:53
Speaker
So I appreciate it. I can't wait to attend. COVID go away so we can attend.
00:06:01
Speaker
I don't know. I'm a beautiful Orlando. No one taught me from that Orlando trip, period. I need to be in that sun. I need to be out there with all the other people. That's just where I'm at. Black excellence, melanin excellence. We out here, we turning up, we changing the narrative, the story and dynamic behind medicine. So shout out to... Speaking of... No, seriously.
00:06:25
Speaker
health and policy specifically, Dr. Cameron Webb, who was a former president from 2010 to 2011 of SNMA, won the Virginia House primary. And I think it's beautiful of the fact that we're finding our way into the political arena. Shout out to Dr. Cameron Webb for
00:06:46
Speaker
being opportunistic and taking advantage of the times to really be a leader and advocate for our community, specifically in Virginia. If he is elected, he'll be the first African-American physician to be in Congress. And so that in itself is a huge accomplishment. And then nonetheless to say he was former president, so he's put an SNMA on and kind of in a way inspiring the next generation and wave of people to say, hey, you could be a physician, but you could also be a politician. You could be entrepreneur. You could do other things. You don't have to necessarily
00:07:14
Speaker
stick to just medicine, but you can find various ways to be able to connect with your community and make change that is everlasting. So I do look forward to seeing what happens in Virginia. Dr. Cameron Webb, we support you, love you, and we look forward to seeing you rise to the top.
00:07:30
Speaker
I also think it's so great that he won the primary because Virginia is typically known to be a red state. And so having that democratic presence is definitely going to shake the table for the residents. He's going to come in with them fresh ideas and everything. And also, of course, I did a little bit of research because I don't like to talk on anything without doing my research. So I know that his campaign platform was centered on affordable health care.
00:07:54
Speaker
which is something that's definitely going to affect black and brown communities who are either uninsured due to financial means or job security or any of the sort. So I really just think that his win, he's just like, it's just been really going to change the whole dynamic. Absolutely. I think it's so dope. So again, congratulations to you, Dr. Webb. We're going to continue now on the wins and losses, right? So the LGBTQIA community coming off of Pride Month, actually,
Supreme Court's LGBT Employment Ruling
00:08:24
Speaker
had a win and a loss. And we'll just start getting into that. Isabella, did you want to touch on it first? Yeah, so the LGBT, I mean, they've just been getting blow and then a clap and then a blow and then a clap. I don't really get it. But in terms of the LGBT employment issues, so they had a recent
00:08:44
Speaker
proposal that was put into Congress, Bostick versus Clayton County, Georgia. And essentially the Supreme Court ruled that LGBT employment, like you cannot be discriminated based on being either gay or lesbian, bisexual, transgender due to Title IX.
00:09:00
Speaker
which states that someone cannot be hired or fired on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, or religion. And although it doesn't explicitly state homosexuality as a factor, you still have to judge a person's sex when you're also judging their sexual orientation. So it's like the two concepts are very much linked. And so of course, it had to rule in favor for no discrimination when it comes to employment for LGBT members.
00:09:26
Speaker
Um, and also according to the New York Times, before Monday's decision, it was actually legal in more than half of the States to fire workers for being gay, transgender, which I just think is crazy because it's like, it's 2020, you know, and it's like more than half of the States are still on that wave. I didn't really get it, but you know,
00:09:44
Speaker
Right. Just like you said, Isabella, like it's just we're in 2020, like how in the world has it taken it so long for the opinion or the thought process to be like it's not about person sexual orientation. It's more so about the character and how they impact people and what they do. You know what I mean? And so it's distasteful to see that it's taken this long for this legislative action to
00:10:09
Speaker
start off and take initiative amongst so many states. I mean, you talk about so many states that weren't even supportive of this initially and now they are like so it's to it beckons the thought of what are we doing in America? We have to see
00:10:26
Speaker
people for face value but we also have to see people for the fact that it's not about sexual orientation religious ideals it's not about where the person is from their backgrounds it's about how they make people feel what they do and how they can connect to the community on a grander scale and I think
00:10:44
Speaker
Barring this level of discrimination will be incredible for the LGBTQIA community. And I'm very appreciative and supportive of this going into effect for this community that's oftentimes undermined and is neglected.
00:10:58
Speaker
And while we had our great win for the LGBT community regarding the LGBT Employment Initiative, we still had a little loss. Actually, it's not a little loss. It was a big loss. And it was for transgender health rights.
Reversal of Gender Identity Protections
00:11:13
Speaker
Basically, the Department of Health and Human Services is no longer recognizing gender identity as an avenue.
00:11:19
Speaker
for sex discrimination in healthcare. So basically you're eliminating protections for all transgender populations. And this is definitely a far cry from the Obamacare era where Obama's administration recognized sex discrimination to include discrimination on the basis of gender identity.
00:11:38
Speaker
I think it's crazy. I absolutely think it is crazy. So you mean to tell me because of what I identify as, I no longer have access to healthcare. I mean, think about the amount of people that come into our hospitals and our doctor's offices every day. So we take this oath, do no harm. So where exactly does this fall for physicians? Like where are the physicians that actually have a problem with this? Like, can y'all stand up and do something for those of us
00:12:07
Speaker
that would love to fight if we could, but we're now trying to get to where you are. Somebody needs to take a stand. What are these institutions doing to help people out? I think that when we say that we want to become doctors and that we want to dedicate our lives to helping people, it doesn't just end when you clock and clock out. The work continues even after you leave.
00:12:28
Speaker
I mean, Isabella, you make a great point. I certainly agree with you because as physicians, as I mentioned earlier, we are not just physicians. And our patients are going to come in a variety of forms of different religions, different backgrounds, different skin tones, different understandings and perceptions of the world. And so we got to take it a step beyond, right? It's not just about coming into office, seeing your patients.
00:12:48
Speaker
and then diagnosing them, treating them. It's also going above and beyond and saying, hey, let me go to Capitol Hill and let's talk about this to Congress people. Let's talk about this to the Senate. Let's talk about LGBTQI issues because those are the patients that I see or may see in my patient population in the future. Let's talk about the Black community. Let's talk
SNMA's Mission and DACA Discussion
00:13:08
Speaker
about
00:13:08
Speaker
people that are undermined and underserved in the community and it lends the fact that this is what SNMA is about. For all our future leaders that are listening, this is what we got to do. It's not just about sitting down and reading your books. You got to read the books, of course. Get them A's if you can. Unlike me, I ain't getting no A's in med school, except for my first term. But the reality is,
00:13:29
Speaker
You got to go above and beyond your call of action because that is what is asked of you. We are all destined for greatness. And in order for us to reach that greatness, we have to understand the equality, the love, the compassion, the understanding and perceptions of the world. And for us to do that, we got to make sure that we represent our patients to the best ability that we can. Well said. Represent patients the best way we can. All patients.
00:13:56
Speaker
I'm right there with y'all too. I love my co-hosts. Love y'all. Love you too. All right, y'all. Unfortunately, keeping with more losses, we're on the loss string right now. The Supreme Court, they are honestly popping right now and I don't know if they're popping in a good way or a bad way.
00:14:22
Speaker
Let's discuss this Trump's idea to do away with DACA and how it reached the Supreme Court. All right. Now I'm going to let y'all speak and then I'll save my opinion for last.
00:14:33
Speaker
Yeah. I'm going to come in with just with the facts in case people are not aware with DACA because sometimes we like to assume that everybody knows what we're talking about, but some people really don't be reading the news. Some people don't even know the policies that are affecting people and how people are even surviving in this country. I'm going to just give a little background to our listeners. DACA, which is short for Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. This is an Obama-era policy that protects hundreds of thousands of immigrants who come to the US
00:15:02
Speaker
very young from being deported, right? So essentially, there are many children who have grown up to Americans in every sense of the word, like you, like me, like, you know, everybody, even if they were born somewhere else, and they never became naturalized citizens. So they constantly kind of, you know, face that fear of, you know, one day, am I going to be sent back to this country that I have no idea about, because I came to this country super young, until now DACA came along. And that was almost like this like beacon of light for a lot of people who basically grew up in this country, but
00:15:32
Speaker
They don't have their actual papers to really be, I guess, quote unquote legal, as maybe Trump would say. I don't really like using the term legal because I feel like everybody in a sense is legal just for existing. But essentially DACA is that document that allows them to have those same rights as US citizens, which includes gaining access to in-state tuition to colleges.
00:15:52
Speaker
receiving social security numbers, being able to work legally for higher wages. These are all very necessary things that DACA has provided them. And so these benefits also help them feel just less exclusion in general when it comes to job security, financial opportunity, and even just physical and emotional freedom. And so
00:16:10
Speaker
It's just, I feel like it's a very loaded document and for Trump to be trying to attack that. He doesn't realize how many lives he's going to affect and what's that's going to really do for this country because so many people in this country are under DACA and they are very much essential citizens of society just like you and me. So I don't know, I'm done.
00:16:32
Speaker
In regards to this, it's just amazing when we talk to the statistics and the facts, like you mentioned, there are approximately 800,000 undocumented immigrants that have obtained DACA status, which is in itself amazing.
00:16:49
Speaker
Studies often show that people that have DACA status are more likely to complete their high school degree, get their high school diploma, get college degrees, and get master's degrees. And so in a way, we're hurting our own country, where we have so many successful individuals that are living that are contributing to our society. And because of DACA, they've been enabled in so many ways to allow us to be so prosperous.
00:17:16
Speaker
The fact of the matter that our political arena is trying to repeal that and work against that is very, it's just unfortunate. Yeah. Thankful. All good points. Thankfully, the administration failed to provide quote unquote adequate reasoning to justify ending the DACA program. But my question is, so when I think of some classmates that I have,
00:17:45
Speaker
that may fall under DACA, who are studying to become doctors, that's a four-year process in itself, then to get to residency. How would this affect them? Like, what can our institutions do from, I don't know, a board level or, you know, an admin level to ensure that their students are actually covered and can actually fulfill their educational desires? I mean, it's so loaded.
00:18:13
Speaker
so many people, like you mentioned, affected. So I'm hoping that there comes some resolve at some point and that people who want to study here, specifically those non-European immigrants, because that's, let's face it, that's who's covered under DACA, will have the opportunities to study and
00:18:32
Speaker
to pursue their dreams of becoming healthcare providers. I just think that it's up to schools who know that they have DACA recipients to have certain protections for them within legal reason of course, something that goes along with the bill that we currently have, you know, seated in Congress for them. As long as that kind of goes along with it and, you know, the school isn't breaking any rules, I do think they should have some internal protections for DACA students as well as maybe a board or like, you know,
00:19:02
Speaker
a group or whatever organization they want to create that can really help put focus to those kinds of individuals so they can feel a little bit more safer, not like, oh, tomorrow they're going to go back to whatever country they were. And all of the time they've invested into their education and their future is just gone in a matter of days. So that's my answer to your question, but we don't really know what's going to happen. So it's unfortunate. Again, something so loaded and hopefully we'll see some
00:19:31
Speaker
Retribution of some sort in the future. Definitely. So you guys, you know, we're, we are amidst two types of pandemics
COVID-19 and Police Brutality's Impact
00:19:43
Speaker
right now. Y'all. We got the COVID crisis going on. Right. And then we have our own, then we have our own personal pandemic going on. And that's.
00:20:00
Speaker
our plight with police brutality that's been for centuries and it's getting televised this time. Okay. The revolution is televised. So, I mean, there's so much to be said. So I want to get the conversation started on just the police brutality. Like let let's put it out there. What, how do we feel? What's going on?
00:20:29
Speaker
What do you feel to say regarding the protests and everything? In regards to the police brutality, it is certainly anchoring for me being a Black male and being one of the targeted individuals.
00:20:44
Speaker
when we talk about specific populations that are affected by police brutality, it's very just eye opening because these things have happened for as long as we can remember, right? But now we have the fact that technology is available, so people are able to record. I think about it, we go back 50 or 60 years ago, you talk to Emmett Till, for instance,
00:21:06
Speaker
who was, you know, purportedly said that he, they were told that he was whistling at a white woman and then gets beat up to his death, you know. And we don't know the facts behind that. We didn't have nobody to,
00:21:21
Speaker
have video camera or see what had happened in that in that instance. But now we there's such a plethora of access information and we have the ability to have the realization like, hey, these are things that are happening in our community and now we got to face it and tackle it head on. And it's crazy to think like even for me as being a medical student, there's a facade.
00:21:43
Speaker
I'll be driving like I remember a couple of days ago, I was I got two white coats in the back of my car, man, like, because when I drive by cops, I want them to know I'm not gang banging or doing none of that extra stuff. So it's just this, you know, this kind of warfare in your mind, like, how do I protect myself and how do I find myself in positions where I can help protect other people? And it's just so saddening that that's the state of affairs where you feel fearful why I drive by a cop car.
00:22:12
Speaker
And I started getting tachycardic. I started sweating like literally. And I don't think that's right. The cops are, they were hired to work for us. Right? They, we weren't, you know what I mean? Like we weren't, we, we don't work for the cops. Y'all work for us. It's our taxes that pay for y'all jobs. And so if you're not doing your jobs appropriately, especially
00:22:32
Speaker
in the communities of color that are disproportionately affected, then you guys, we need to rework and retool the way that we're perceiving of cops and the way that we're teaching them in law enforcement, the way that they understand our communities. And oftentimes it's just so painful because I can tell you so many times living in the South Bronx in the city, there was not one time and there's not one time to this day that I walked by a cop and I'm like, yo,
00:22:59
Speaker
That's my man, yo. I rock with you. I love you. Nah, it's the exact opposite. I feel uncomfortable. Way uncomfortable.
00:23:09
Speaker
You know, and we talk about Rayshard Brooks and everybody that's, you know, unfortunately lost their lives to police brutality. But we got to also acknowledge the fact that there's a lot of work to be done, but it's beautiful to see our communities rising up together, connecting, protesting, being out here, putting in the work. I love it. Black communities. We got black businesses opening up, people going out there showing love. You know what I mean? So I would like to hear what you guys' thoughts are on this too as well.
00:23:42
Speaker
No, because I just think, no, literally, Alvin, I really appreciate your take on it because I also wanted to know, like, yeah, I think it's crazy that we literally have to show, oh, like I'm a doctor or like I'm going to become a doctor. Oh, like, you know, I'm doing this great thing to prove my worth. Like the fact that I'm not human is not enough for you. You know, like I can't feel safe just for like, it's just crazy that we have to do so much to make up for it. And I know all black people have just been raised with their parents or their grandparents just saying like, you have to be twice as good, you know, then
00:24:11
Speaker
white people essentially and it's just it's sad but that's really the reality we've lived in and I just want to also touch in on like the connection with COVID with like this racial revolution that's been that's been happening because you know it's crazy because I read I remember when I was reading on COVID-19 that it's actually really been a magnifying glass in a sense that's helped Americans see kind of like
00:24:34
Speaker
these long-standing shortfalls in health because they exposed so much of just like the failings in health that's really been happening in the Black community that we always kind of knew about but you know people who are Black didn't really know about it and like us you know I always my research so the research I found out was like you know there's so many factors that attribute to the health disparities in the Black community and
00:24:57
Speaker
all of course tied to systemic racism. Those of you guys who do not know what systemic racism is, that is when the system, right, the system that we're all currently living in, which includes the schools that we go to, the neighborhood that we live in, whether we have investments, whatever, that is all racist in nature because white people have had a standpoint or like a head start in all of that compared to black people. So just starting off of that, we just have less period. So like in regards to
00:25:27
Speaker
The wealth gap that occurs, which is lower socioeconomic status, which increases the likelihood for someone to need to leave home to go to work, that's going to be COVID related because I need to leave my house in order to get to my job, therefore exposing me.
00:25:43
Speaker
more to the disease, you know, that's definitely a wealth gap issue. The fact that Black people make up a higher percentage of essential and frontline workers, you know, the people who are right now the nurses, you know, the people who are maybe food care or food workers or whatever, people who are literally risking their lives, you know, those are mainly Black people or other minorities.
00:26:04
Speaker
the inability to social distance. Like we don't even think about it, but it's like, they say, okay, social distance, but like everybody's living situation is not the same. You know, some people, they go home and they're going home to just themselves. So they were going to go home to a crowded house. Some people live in multi-generational housing units, high density areas. How can you really expect somebody to just social distance when it's like their living situation is already kind of, you know, more subpar than somebody else?
00:26:30
Speaker
And this is, of course, all tied to systemic racism, one more being higher rate of comorbidities amongst the Black people. So not only are you dealing with COVID, but you also have stress, you're living in a food desert, you don't have access to quality food, being uninsured. I mean, these things are all, of course, making you more likely to get COVID. And so it's not just because we're Black, but we're dealing with all these other factors
00:26:53
Speaker
that is attributing us to getting COVID at higher rates.
Systemic Racism and Health Disparities
00:26:56
Speaker
And so I just really thought that it's interesting that a disease just kind of exposed all of the reasonings as to why black people have just been receiving a shorter stick when it comes to just life. But of course, especially when it comes to, you know, getting the disease. Yeah, that was wow. So wow, wow, wow, wow. I mean, I think both of you have said pretty much everything that's in my heart to say,
00:27:22
Speaker
And the biggest takeaway for me is we fed up. And to the extent that we as a community felt compelled enough to literally say, screw COVID and protest on behalf of our lives, our Black lives mattering. And honestly, it's sad that Breonna Taylor's
00:27:49
Speaker
assailants still have yet to be arrested. I mean, there's so many that I could name. It's so sad. We just recently saw the funeral of George Floyd occur. The funeral of Richard Brooks, I believe, occurred last week. And now what's being shed light, or who's being shed light on, is the gentleman Elijah McLean.
00:28:18
Speaker
who was just, I mean, like you mentioned earlier, Aldwyn, you know, you're not a hood dude, but even if you were a hood dude, why is your life threatened? Like just because hood dudes exist doesn't mean hood dude should get shot at for anything. I mean, unless you're literally trying to take somebody's life, like you can, there are so many other ways that I'm sure they can disarm people
00:28:47
Speaker
who police feel are a threat. Additionally, what about this training that these police officers receive? I mean, there's so many, we can't even scratch the surface right now, but there are just so many layers to this. And I hope that we all remain inspired beyond COVID and beyond even the current nature and current state of our community to continue to keep hope
00:29:16
Speaker
to continue to fight on and to continue to use each other and just press forward because change has to come. If we keep believing change
00:29:27
Speaker
change will come. And that's the fact. Literally, that's literally a fact. Like, and I also want to mention Oluwatoian Salu. That's another person who Oh, yeah. Good Lord. Yeah. Yeah. That hit close kind of to like the Twitter worlds where like people had heard that she was missing and then all of a sudden it's like
00:29:47
Speaker
her sister's friends were dead. And that was really scary for me. There's the fact that you could just one day be protesting. I mean, she was out there protesting, putting herself on the line, really out there. And then now, she's not there. And I'm trying to say, it's crazy. And it's really sad how we as black people were willing to go through such lengths. And we don't even know if we're safe or not doing that. But we're still doing it for the greater cause. We're still doing it for the greater good of our community.
00:30:14
Speaker
And so, yeah, it's Enemat Arbery. I don't know if you touched on Enemat Arbery, Erica, but that's another person who also was killed. And it's just, I mean, it's just really funny, you know. There's just too many names to names at this point, to name at this point. And it's just, it's sad. And you know what else I've found now? So the Keeping with the Black Lives Matter, I guess, theme, I've noticed, and I'm sure you all have as well, that
Corporate Responses to Black Lives Matter
00:30:47
Speaker
So, okay, y'all want to change Angie mama's face. Like, that don't mean nothing to me. I like my Angie mama. Y'all can leave her on there. I like my Uncle Ben. I want my mom and my dad to be able to recognize Uncle Ben's rights when they go shopping, so they're not in there looking for some new face. Okay? Like, keep the brands. Keep the brands. And then the biggest one that kind of had me ticked off was Band-Aid. So you mean to tell me.
00:31:05
Speaker
that all of a sudden these companies are kind of like pandering to us.
00:31:13
Speaker
all of a sudden, y'all want to decide to change the colors like black people ain't been cutting themselves, falling down, busting up ankles and elbows for the last however many years. And in fact, there is already a black owned bandaid company out there doing what we need them to do. True color bandages. How do y'all feel about this? True color bandages, yes. This is not endorsed by SNA, but this is endorsed by me.
00:31:36
Speaker
true color bandages. They've been there since 2014. They've been given a skin tone, you know, bandages since 2014. Bandaid now wants to hop on the bandwagon, but it's too late. And that's all I have to say about that.
00:31:50
Speaker
Isabella, I'm copping them. Thank you for that. Like you said, SMA may not endorse that, but I'm definitely going to check on that. I haven't cut myself since probably 2007, but I'll still definitely just buy it because it's Black home. Like Erica mentioned, these companies are coming out the woodworks and where was this energy? I don't know, 20, 30 years ago. Now you want to be donating money. For instance, the Netflix CEOs have donated $150 million.
00:32:20
Speaker
to communities of color. And I see this and I'm like, number one, I would like to know where this money is going to. Exactly. Right. I wish I would know, like, could you detail like, all right, 10 million is going for scholarships to, you know, black kids that are, you know, in a certain household income. And then 15 million is going to start mental health initiatives, which includes starting up mental health clinic and et cetera, et cetera. Right. But then
00:32:49
Speaker
outside of the money, it's like, are you like, are you guys truly a proponent for this? Or you're just writing the way for me? Like, I, I'm trying to figure out whether or not you making these changes. Is it just for you to say you did something? Or is there actual work being done in the companies? You know, like, you can just put out some band aids, and then you still have no black people working in your company. You're still racist.
00:33:13
Speaker
You haven't really done any work. And so I think it's just not just saying, okay, let's just put this out to cater to these people and shut them up. And that's enough. No, you haven't done your part. Because at the end of the day, this is supposed to be a working of slowly trying to change the system and change how things are done. I listened to one of my favorite YouTubers is Jackie Aina. And she is a beauty influencer kind of thing. And she talked about how she wasn't going to
00:33:43
Speaker
support certain brands until they gave out a list of how many Black workers they have. Who are your Black workers? How many do you have?
00:33:50
Speaker
You know, and that's called putting your foot down. Like of course she's making her coin. She could be, she could just decide and say, oh, you know, I'm, I'm making money so it doesn't affect me. But she knows that that's, that's a sellout essentially. Like you can't just ride with the company, even when they don't care about your life. You know what I'm trying to say? So we as a black community have to be serious about, okay, do we, are these companies serving us? Are they serving our wellbeing as a community? And if not, are we going to continue supporting them? And that's just, that's really what it comes down to, honestly.
00:34:22
Speaker
Isabella, you are right because I do agree with that. It's all about action and being proactive. You can say one thing, right? You could be about the words, right? You say what you want to do, but are you really about it? You say you're giving us money or you say you're about the Black Lives Movement, but are you hiring the people? Are you putting these people in position to be successful in these positions?
00:34:43
Speaker
For instance, I found out recently for family guy, the black guy that the voice actor that plays the black guy and family guy is a white guy. He recently stepped down from that position because he supports a black lives movement is like we should have a black person in this is going on. We have white people play black roles now.
00:35:04
Speaker
I know. I know. I didn't even know that. I was like, yo, bro, what? So you see things like that. It's like, yeah, there's a black guy. I mean, that's kind of obvious. I'm going to give it a shot. But he losing a check. He losing a check though. So I respect him.
00:35:18
Speaker
You know, I ain't trying to hold y'all, but I'm sorry. I like his voice and that might be the unpopular. I was actually, no, I was actually kind of sad, actually, when I found that out, because, you know, I'm a diehard family guy watcher. So he goes, he goes up. Peter Griffin. Yeah.
00:35:42
Speaker
I personally don't know how I feel about that, but big, bigger than anything y'all and you know it, what it boils down to. If it makes dollars, it makes sense, right? We are the top consumers and these companies know exactly what they're doing because guess what? When we hit them in the pocket, right? That's when it's all let's, let's do something now because we don't want to lose our top consumers. And I mean,
00:36:09
Speaker
down to top line companies.
Economic Influence of Black Consumers
00:36:11
Speaker
I've been getting emails like, here's our diversity initiative and this and that. And I mean, they're reaching for our pockets. So it just, it takes us to stay strong, right? We are strong people. We are a joyful people nonetheless. And now I kind of want to
00:36:31
Speaker
being with the, being that we are joyful people, I kind of want to talk about Juneteenth real quick. Yes! Yes!
Juneteenth and Its Historical Context
00:36:44
Speaker
Okay, see, see, Alwyn was clearly lit on Juneteenth. No, he was lit lit. He was lit lit. I just want to tell you now, I actually participated in something wonderful, so
00:36:57
Speaker
Um, here at my school, we don't have an SNMA chapter yet, but we're working to get one. And we had a preliminary meeting for Juneteenth where everyone was invited. It wasn't just for black students. And what we did was have a discussion. It was brought up by a, uh, an upper med who is a black student. And he just wanted to have the discussion, the dialogue about what it means to be black in America, because so many people that we go to school with have no clue. I have been stressed TF out.
00:37:28
Speaker
the entire semester for a number of reasons. One being the COVID crisis. And then next, the other public health issue, which is racism, right? Racism we know is a public health issue. And I've just, I've been touched by it and so many of us have. And I've been expected to just put on in class, on Zoom,
00:37:54
Speaker
I, I, there's some days where I literally have not wanted to wake up and get out of bed, just being depressed by everything that I'm seeing. My black brothers, my black sisters being murdered and there's nothing you can do about it. So bringing back the joy, we had a discussion and when I tell y'all it was amazing. Um, it was really insightful to hear from
00:38:17
Speaker
students that are not persons of color or that are other persons of color, like either from, I'll give an example from Jordan, one of my classmates or schoolmates is from Jordan, and just hearing their takes on what racism is, excuse me.
00:38:33
Speaker
how we are all affected and how we can push the narrative forward. And so many of my classmates and schoolmates were like, we want to learn. We want to help. We love you. We appreciate you. And it was such, I mean, on Juneteenth, I couldn't turn up because I had exams coming up. But when I tell you, it was so satisfying to actually participate in such a commemorative holiday for our community in that manner. So I just wanted to share that with you. Yeah. No, that's amazing.
00:39:04
Speaker
Yeah, it was good. And then, I mean, also, social media fun, right? Like, there has been so much on social media to kind of help us get through. Like, you know, we are a creative people. Facts. I saw that wipe it down challenge, and there was one that, like, hit me in the soul. It was a sislet with her. She was doing a wipe it down challenge on TikTok, and then the next scene went to her.
00:39:32
Speaker
I think she started with like her boyfriend and then he, like every scene he faded away and it was like, stop killing us. So impactful. But again, the creativity of our people is like unmatched. It's crazy. And like, I just want to touch right back on Juneteenth because you know, there may really be people listening to this podcast that have no idea what Juneteenth is. And so I just want to clarify because I feel like a lot of people
00:39:58
Speaker
A lot of people think, oh, Juneteenth is the day that the slaves were free. You know, the chains were awful. You know, that's far from the truth because we know that America's shady. We already know that. So we know it. So basically, Juneteenth, to give a kind of a background, is that many people believe that it was on June 19th, if they were free on June 19th, 1865.
00:40:22
Speaker
but actually it was on June 19th, 1865 that Major General Gordon Grainger and the Union soldiers informed the people in Galveston, Texas that blacks slaves were now free. So mind you, this was two and a half years after two years later, Lincoln had signed the Emancipation Proclamation when they were free on January 1st, 1863. So you have people in Galveston, Texas that was just, you know, what is it called? And doing all these things.
00:40:48
Speaker
When there are other people in other states was out here free, you know, and so I just think that's crazy Of course, but you know, there's a lot of crazy things that happen to our community So I can't say I'm surprised but essentially that in Juneteenth and I mean for me I just had myself I mean I can't map it to Eric because this sounds like you were doing like a whole educational Very informative and that's beautiful. Mine was kind of a little bit more low-key, you know, I was I was just having a blacky-black all the time in my house I watch Malcolm X then I watched
00:41:18
Speaker
that I'm watching. I got a poster of him in my room too. Yeah, no, Malcolm, that's one of my favorite people. I watched Spike Lee's version and I love, you know, I love his, the movie that he made on Malcolm X. I think that it really caught him in the most truthful light, you know, because a lot of people have their own opinions on Malcolm X that aren't always positive. I'm not to say, you know, that anybody's opinion is false or not, but I think it was the most truthful view of him.
00:41:44
Speaker
Also, I of course had my little fried chicken with my mac and cheese and ice cream. I was big chillin'. I was big chillin'. It was great. It was a great old time. So yeah, but go ahead Alta. I know you want to hear about yours. You do. Appreciate it. Juneteenth was a great, great time and shout out to Isabella.
00:42:08
Speaker
for educating the audience on the historical precedents on what Juneteenth is because I think that's important. Because oftentimes people celebrate things and then they don't really know what it's about. So I think that was well needed talking to Juneteenth. So I actually went to Atlanta and there was a protest I was starting. So I was like, oh, you know, it's a protest starting. And you know what I'm saying? And it's like, no justice, no peace and everything. And people just gathering and
00:42:36
Speaker
They're like, yo, let's like go down and walk down these streets in Atlanta. So I just hopped on and joined them. And it was just beautiful because it was my first time really joining protest since everything's been going on. Cause I've been kind of doing the groundwork from behind the scenes with advocacy. And so it was amazing to see we walking and then in downtown Atlanta, all these cars just honking like beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
00:43:03
Speaker
And I remember one time there was a car honking, and then there was a little girl, she's probably like two, three years old in the backseat, sitting on her mother's lap. And she was just waving at us. And I'm like, the power of this movement, you know, for the art generation, and the future generation is just so special. And what it means and how, as we mentioned earlier, right, Erica and Isabella, like, this is revolutionary, like, we are part of the revolution. This is something that
00:43:29
Speaker
Maybe not our kids, but our kids, kids, they're going to read about this in social studies books and say, this is a special revolution. Like it's not, you know what I'm saying? The Renaissance. This is ours for black people. And we can take hold of the importance of this and strategize and engage in our communities in a different way based off of the foundation of this and what's going on. And so, yeah, it was, it was definitely dope. And then during the weekend, like I intentionally, so even the hotel that I got,
00:43:59
Speaker
in Atlanta for that weekend was a black owned hotel and all the restaurants or foods that I went to were all black owned. So I intentionally engage in that atmosphere because I want to celebrate black excellence. And that's what, you know, in a way Juneteenth is about. It's about the fact that we are empowered to do something greater and we can't let the political arena or people deter us from what we're destined to be. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And
00:44:27
Speaker
When we talk about social media, for me, I just also want to mention that I want to give a shout out to SNMA and what they're doing on social media we have the CS campaign which we started about a month or so ago, and it's essentially about showing the fact that we
00:44:45
Speaker
our medical students of color, but we are also leaders. We are also advocates and we enlighten and we want to ask even our audience that's listening to also be leaders in their own way.
00:44:58
Speaker
Now you necessarily don't have to use social media, but if you get out there, if you write blog posts, which I do, if you connect with your political arena, if you talk to students at your school that aren't aware of how to be quote unquote woke, right? These are things that we can do and that we should be entitled to do because we're dealing with a huge burden. Social media is such a great way.
00:45:23
Speaker
for everybody to connect when it comes to information being told. And yeah, I also very much appreciated SNMA's social media posts. On their stories, they've really been giving some very factual information about individuals who are key black leaders that we've had. And it's just been a great learning tool because not everybody that follows SNMA's social media page are necessarily black medical students. And now they're learning things that they probably didn't know.
00:45:49
Speaker
It's been a really great tool and just being able to go through my IG stories and just seeing just black everything and just everybody really trying to be conscious. It's just been a really good weight off of all of our shoulders, I think, because we know that we're not necessarily carrying the burden alone. The allies seem to be getting kind of serious. Before I was like, listen, allies, y'all need to stop trying to take the spot.
00:46:12
Speaker
because this is a Black issue and I know some allies were kind of getting a little bit excited about, you know, I appreciate them really trying to step up to the plate and do, you know, do their part so that way it's not like we're carrying the entire burden considering we didn't do this to ourselves.
00:46:28
Speaker
And it's just been a great way also too for us to just like have a little fun You know, I saw that little post that said Beethoven was black and Twitter was having just a whole field day with that I mean, I just thought that was really funny and people have just kind of been just also using social media as a way to like not make everything just super depressing and too serious because sometimes we also need to give ourselves a break
Social Media's Role in Activism
00:46:49
Speaker
and
00:46:49
Speaker
It's a lot to handle. It's a mental strain. It's an emotional strain. And we have the right, you know, to kind of unwind and unload in whichever way we, you know, see fit. So yeah, but that's I've really thought that social media has been a great tool for everybody. Absolutely.
00:47:06
Speaker
Right. And also shout out to SMA because they also have a reading list. So I'm rereading medical apartheid and then a new Jim Crow law. So if you, the audience, if you guys want to get in tune with some of the things that are important in our culture, and as well as be educated about these important topics, like make sure you check out the book list that SMA has put out because there's a lot to learn.
00:47:30
Speaker
I think I just, I'm so full off of this conversation, like from the losses to the, to the wins, to the laughs, the jokes. And I mean, honestly, like black people, we are so magic. Like we are magic. And I think we do an amazing job at using everything we're given to mobilize the movement. Seriously. So that, that, that's our wins and losses for the day.
00:48:00
Speaker
um next month yes erica so next month we'll be discussing how miss rona coronavirus okay uh africa i'm also i'm nigerian and we say
00:48:19
Speaker
Hallelujah. Who was that supposed to sound like all the time? Ah! OK, Erika, sorry I didn't mean to cut you off, girl. I didn't mean to. It's OK. Next month, we will be discussing how Miss Rona coronavirus has been affecting our communities and what national organizations are doing about it with Dr. Maybank.
00:48:44
Speaker
who happens to be the Chief Health Equity Officer of the American Medical Association. Because guess what y'all, Ms. Corona, shawty ain't going nowhere, no time soon. And that's our list this week. We will be back after a quick advertisement.
00:49:03
Speaker
SNMA presents The Lounge is also proud to be sponsored by the Levi Strauss Foundation in their support of the podcast and the work SNMA is doing. We appreciate y'all, so big shout out. Now let's get back to the show.
Dr. Dale Okorodudu and Mentorship in Medicine
00:49:18
Speaker
What's good, everybody? Welcome back to SNMA Presents the Lounge. I'm student Dr. Aldwin, and I have the honor to be entering a very special guest today, Dr. Dale. Let me give you a little brief bio about Dr. Dale. Dr. Dale Okorodudu is a critical care doctor at UT Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, Texas, and founder of both Diverse Medicine in Ink and Black Men in White Coats.
00:49:45
Speaker
He is the altar of five books, including Pre-Med Mondays, How to Raise a Doctor, and most recently, Black Men in White Coats. He is also our founding sponsor, fellow podcaster, as host of the podcast, Black Men in White Coats, Husband and Father of Three. Thank you for taking the time to join us today, Dr. Dale.
00:50:08
Speaker
No, thanks for having me. I'm excited. Super excited you guys got this going. Before we get into the tough questions with you, we're going to start with the real tough questions, the real tough Spitfire questions. Let's do it. My first question is Martin or Fresh Prince? Martin. Martin. Okay. Why Martin?
00:50:29
Speaker
Man, Martin's the, Martin's the, he's the originator, man. He was, he was, I'm pretty sure it was before Fresh Prince, right? So a lot of the Fresh Prince, and I love Fresh Prince too, man, but you know, a lot of the Fresh Prince jokes just came right off, right out of Martin, man. Right. I mean, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo. Gina. You know, goodness. You can't, you got to love Martin. I might have to go put that on tonight, man.
00:50:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's a classic for sure. Like you could never go wrong. You could watch it over and over reruns and never get tired of it. Oh, yeah, definitely. My second question. So if you're, you know, looking for food, right? You open a refrigerator, right? And you got mom's food and grandmother's food in the refrigerator. Which whose food are you going to choose first?
00:51:11
Speaker
That's easy for me. Mom's definitely, because my grandmothers weren't, you know, I was born in Nigeria, I grew up in America and everything, but I was born in Nigeria, so my grandparents lived in Nigeria, so that wasn't even an option for me. I don't know what my grandmother's food tastes like, you know, so my mom's food's delicious.
00:51:28
Speaker
Okay. That's what's up. And my last question is, so if you had to pick between MJ and Prince, you know, there's always debate who's better, who got better dance moves. Of course, we know who the better singer is, but MJ versus Prince, who you got to take? Yeah. MJ, man. What kind of question is that? I ain't do it. Don't look at me. I'm not the one that said that. MJ, man. I feel purple, purple rain. I'm done with all that. But MJ, man, come on now. Right. Facts. Facts. Yeah. Rest in peace to both of those legends. So, um,
00:51:58
Speaker
get into a little bit something more serious. And like I mentioned before, I do appreciate everything that you're doing in the community. I mean, I've been following you for a little while over the last several years with what you do in the community. And I know that you go out and have events where you allow black men from various backgrounds, whether it's pre-meds, high school students.
00:52:19
Speaker
medical students to come and get connected and learn more about what medicine is about. And I think that initiative is important in today's society where there's such a lack of black men in medicine. We found that the numbers have not increased since the 1970s. In fact, in the WAMC's altering the course, black men in medicine report the number of applicants and first year matriculants are declining. But why do you think there is such a lack of black men in medicine?
00:52:47
Speaker
Man, good question. And there's a plethora, a lot of answers to that question. We're actually in the process. We're actually finishing up our documentary film on this exact topic. So I've heard a lot of.
00:52:58
Speaker
intellectual people opine on that here. Before I give you my answer, I do want to say, you mentioned that black men and white coats, we let black men come through, but we will let black women in there too. So I do want to make sure that's clear. So we probably have just as many young girls and women in these events as we do black men, but we call it black men and white coats for that exact reason that you stated, because we know the number of black men were declining.
00:53:21
Speaker
And sometimes if you don't specifically call out a black man, he's not going to show up, right? So, so we call them out specifically and let them know, hey, this is for you also. Now, so, you know, so why are they, why is it declining, man? It's a lot, a whole lot of reasons, man. The first thing that I always go to is this thing that you hear over and over and over. I don't know who started it, but everybody says you can't be what you can't see.
00:53:42
Speaker
Right? So there's not very many of us. There's 2% of all the doctors in America are black men, roughly 2%. Right? You have about a million doctors in the country. Roughly 2% of them are black men. It's not very many doctors there. So when you have young black boys who were thinking, what can I be when I grow up? When you look around, they see the athletes. They see the artists. They see the rappers. They see all sorts of stuff. But what they do not see are the black men. That's because the black men are in clinic. The black men are in the operating room.
00:54:11
Speaker
Unfortunately, you know, we can't be out and about as much as we'd like to sometimes, which is, you know, why we started Batman and White Coast to try to change that. But I'd say that's the primary reason, right? That's the primary reason. And beyond that, there's a million other reasons I can get into, but you know, we'd be here all day talking about that. Yeah, certainly. And I definitely agree with you. You are what you see, you know, for me coming from the South Bronx. Oftentimes I didn't meet my first
00:54:36
Speaker
a doctor of color until I got into undergrad, and I shadowed him in the ER. And so when there's a lack of opportunity to have access to people that look like you, then you're just going to envision your dreams to be elsewhere, like you mentioned, whether you're an athlete. Of course, that's
00:54:52
Speaker
Certainly an option, but that's not always an option for everybody. You know, everyone has a niche and a role to play in society. Exactly what you're saying. And you know, when we started Black Men in White Coats, to your point, the reason we started something, we started this, I don't know how many years ago, 2013, 2013, right? And, you know, back then, a big thing that was missing was you didn't see this. Now you put it on social media now and you see Black men everywhere. Excuse me.
00:55:18
Speaker
You see black men and white coats everywhere in social media. But back in the days, even when I was a resident, that wasn't the case by any means. So what we were aiming to do was to make the black male position relevant to society, right? So that's why we started making videos and everything. And that's what's missing. These young kids didn't think we were relevant because they never saw us. Right. Yeah, that's certainly true. And that brings me to my next question. When we do get black men in medicine, and I've seen it
00:55:44
Speaker
being in medical school. And I'm now a fourth year medical student at PCOM Georgia. And oftentimes many black men aren't equipped to match into competitive specialties. And then also when they get into medical school, they're not equipped to be successful in medical school.
00:55:59
Speaker
For me, for instance, I had difficulty kind of transitioning and feeling comfortable in my environment. Imposter syndrome is something that's real. I always questioned whether I belong there. And I think when I try to interpret that, that affected how I looked at being successful.
00:56:18
Speaker
being in a place where I could say, hey, I really could be the neuropsychiatrist that I want to be, which is a field that I want to go into. So what do you think are things that we can do or implement into the black man's experience in medical school and helping them get into competitive specialties?
00:56:37
Speaker
You know, let me let me go back initially when you mentioned the black men aren't aren't equipped. I'm not sure I wouldn't say we're not equipped. You know, perhaps in some situations, we might not be as equipped. But in other situations, it's just like you said, you get the imposter syndrome comes on you because you're in an environment that might not feel natural to you and and
00:56:56
Speaker
I don't want to take the blame off of the black man, because I'm somebody who says we always have to start at home, right? So if you want to do something, you got to start it with yourself and you got to go out there and achieve it. So I don't want to put the blame on somebody else here. But you look at you look at schools like, you know, the HBCUs, you look at Howard's, you look at Meharry, Morehouse, Drew, black men and women come out of those schools and go into very competitive fields. Right. And they're in these environments where they're surrounded by people who look like them, who might think like them, who might talk like them, where they feel comfortable.
00:57:24
Speaker
And they're no more equipped than you or I. I went to a PWI, sounds like you the two, right? They are no more equipped than I was, right? They just went to HBCU school where their environment was equipped for them, right? So I don't want to say they weren't equipped. The environment was better equipped to handle them.
00:57:45
Speaker
Now, so, you know, going back, you said, what can we do to help them get into more competitive specialties? You know, the first question is, I would always say we shouldn't always assume that they can't necessarily get into that specialty. Some people just don't want to. You know, so that's one thing that I would keep in mind. And for those individuals who do want to, that don't, again, a lot of this is going to come back to this idea of mentoring, right? So if we can establish programs where they know who to turn to and let me make sure I'm clear with this mentoring thing, you don't have to have a black mentor.
00:58:15
Speaker
Right. It doesn't have to be a black mentor. You just have to have somebody who cares about you and who wants to see you succeed. This term mentor comes from the Odyssey. It's an epic tale of the Odyssey. And Odysseus goes on this long journey and he goes on this journey to go slay giants and kill beasts and do all this stuff. And he's got a son. His son's name is Telemachus. So he leaves his son behind because he can't take him on this journey. So he goes to his friend and says, hey, mentor. His friend's name is mentor. He says, hey, mentor, can you take care of my son while I'm gone?
00:58:42
Speaker
So when you think about that, think about what the term mentor actually means. That's deep, man. That's deep to say, I'm going to entrust you with the responsibility to make sure my son is successful. So black men need people like that in the field of medicine to really back them, to support them. And it's hard to find.
00:58:59
Speaker
It's just hard to find because there's not enough of us in there that we can relate to. So that means sometimes we got to go outside of our race, which is fine, but sometimes you don't feel as comfortable. But, you know, a lot of the stuff about success and matching a lot of that just deals with what kind of guidance you have to prepare for that field. Right. That's very, having access to a mentor is so critical and moving forward and being progressive and successful, like you mentioned. And now that we're talking about mentorship, what the audience needs to know is that you also have several books that talk to mentorship
00:59:29
Speaker
How to Raise a Doctor and the Pre-Med Mondays book. So can you enlighten the audience on what those books entail and what are the important qualities that people should find in mentors? We put out the first Black Men and White Coats video series and they were circulating online. And a young mother reached out to me. She sent me a message saying, hey, Dr. Dale, I'm a young single mother. I'm raising a black boy. Please, what can I do to help him become a doctor?
00:59:56
Speaker
So I thought to myself, well, I've never raised a doctor. Like I don't know what to tell her. So what I did was I got a whole bunch of my friends and I said, hey, can you connect me with your parents? So I interviewed and surveyed over 75 parents of physicians and I put their wisdom, their guidance in that book called How to Raise a Doctor and I put it on the background of kind of my life and what my parents raised me and such. So that's where that guidance in that book comes from, from parents who actually raised doctors. So that book was specifically written for those parents out there whose kids are dreaming big.
01:00:23
Speaker
and they don't know how to do it so you know we give them a guy said hey this is what the parents who have done it this is how they did it and you know what takeaways are in that book um quite a few takeaways the first thing i would say is it has to be your child's dream
01:00:39
Speaker
It can't be your dream, it has to be your child's dream, because what you see is a lot of parents trying to push this on their kids when it's not really their child's dream. And then sometimes you see it the other way around where kids want to do it, but the parents don't support them. I see quite a bit of that too. And then there's quite a few other things in that book that are just excellent gems. The second book, Pre-Med Mondays, I wrote that just because what I was finding was
01:01:04
Speaker
There were so many young individuals pre-meds who wanted to do what we're doing, but they had zero guidance, right? They had nobody to reach out to. And you know, we do diverse medicine and things of that sort. So we try to set those things up for them as well. But some of them, you know, still even within that, they just had no guidance whatsoever.
01:01:22
Speaker
And mentorship is a very difficult thing to be a good mentor is a difficult thing. So what we wanted to do was give them something where they had consistent gold, you know, just excellent guidance every week. So premium Monday says 52 letters that I've written personally to the reader.
01:01:37
Speaker
Just to give them that solid guidance. And the third book is Black Men in White Coats. And what that is, that's the first 20 guests from my podcast. The first 20 guests from my Black Men in White Coats podcast, that's their guidance that we put in that book for pre-meds and others to read and just to keep them on track for success.
01:01:56
Speaker
Right. I mean, that's amazing. You know, talk about being an author and just the way that you've been incredibly insightful with your understanding what mentoring is and how to inspire and educate, particularly minorities, but also pre-med students into getting into medicine. I think it's definitely incredible. And for all audience that's listening, make sure you check out how to raise a doctor pre-med Mondays
01:02:19
Speaker
And also black men and white coats. I'm sure there's a lot of gems that you guys have to tune in and access. I'm sure I'm gonna tell you. So actually, I am a person say this. I'm running short. I'm running short on my stock, but I actually give all those books out for free.
01:02:36
Speaker
I'll have to give you the website. Maybe you guys can share it and post it, but I actually give all those books out for free. You just pay shipping and handling by two bucks, $2.99, and I buy the books and I give them to the people for free so you guys can have them. But I probably shouldn't say that, man. My stock is running low and I'm going to have to go buy a whole bunch more, but just trying to get them out to the people however I can. Right. I mean, that's so incredible. I mean, just being able to just give access to that. We appreciate that. I'll definitely tune in to
01:03:05
Speaker
those books as well because I think it's so important. Talking more a little bit about mentorship. So how do you maintain a mentorship and moving forward as a pre-med or medical students? And are there any general tips that you would give for someone that can't find a mentor?
01:03:24
Speaker
The first tip I would say is go to DiverseMedicine.com. DiverseMedicine.com, we have mentors there waiting. Students just got to take advantage. So we have doctors, med students, people who are on the website. And essentially, it's an automated mentoring platform. You go there, you request a mentor. The mentor agrees or doesn't agree. And once you get your mentor, then we have a 12-month plan that's automated built out for you. You get a message every month saying, check in with your mentor. Here's what you should talk about.
01:03:50
Speaker
So we try to make it as easy as possible for them. So that's one way. Other way, of course, if you can find somebody in person that you could do this type of stuff with. So there's somebody in the local community, and I get it. I know it's hard. But there's nothing like sitting down across the table from somebody and talking to them and letting them look in your eyes and hearing the intonations in your voice and such. That's very powerful. I mean, that's the type of mentor you want, if you can get it.
01:04:19
Speaker
It's something with mentorship that I have to emphasize because students, I think pre-meds mess up on this so much, right? And med students, people mess up on this so much.
01:04:28
Speaker
the onus for the mentorship relationship. It's on you as a mentee. It's not on the mentor, it's on you, right? So if you want to be mentored, it's your responsibility to pursue that mentor. It's your responsibility to reach out that once a month to update them, to say, hey, can we do this? To say, to never miss a call. I tell you, one of the biggest pet peeves, and of course I do a lot of stuff with tons of mentors, right? And one of the biggest pet peeves that I get back as feedback is, man, Dr. Dale, this person didn't respond.
01:04:55
Speaker
I mean, can you imagine being a busy physician and you've set aside time to talk to a pre-med and they don't show up for the call?
01:05:04
Speaker
Right. That's not going to make you want to set that time aside, you know, next month, because you're going to think they're not going to show up again. So that's one of her mind, pre-meds, med students, resident, everybody. If you, if you're going to somebody to give you advice, guidance, wisdom, the responsibilities on you, you should be the one reaching out. You should be the one never missing a meeting. You should be the one saying thank you all the time. Right. And that's the same for me. I have people who mentor me and I do my best to be that individual. So let them know that I appreciate them. Right. I certainly agree.
01:05:32
Speaker
And you mentioned diverse in medicine, and could you talk more about, you did talk a little bit about it, but can you talk more about what that represents to you and the meaning of it, diverse in medicine, and what do you foresee for it in the near future, let's say in the next three to five years of it impacting our communities, specifically pre-meds and in regards to mentorship?
01:05:58
Speaker
Yeah. So diverse medicine kind of has, I guess it's two arms, right? So I started a nonprofit diverse medicine probably about 10 years ago now. And, um, you know, we, that's where we started doing a lot of our mentoring things of that source. We, you know, we ran mentoring programs for several years and what that kind of shifted more into is running our black men and white coats youth summit here in Dallas. So, you know, in Dallas, we have black men and white coats use them to get a thousand people show up for these summits and you know, these great big events. Um, so diverse medicine is, is we run all that stuff, right? So my nonprofit runs that.
01:06:28
Speaker
And I've got diversemedicine.com, which is a tech platform that we built. Put a lot of time, money, years and energy to build this tech platform for you guys. So you guys take advantage of it. It's free. So, you know, we built it with the idea of being a place to connect people who are on this track, right? So you go there, you can get a mentor, you can go there, you create your profile. It's kind of like a LinkedIn profile. So when you're ready to apply to med school, you have everything there in one
Diverse Medicine Platform and Perseverance in Medicine
01:06:53
Speaker
spot.
01:06:53
Speaker
You can share your profile with deans, whoever you want to share it with. We have med school recruiters that use the site to come talk to pre-meds and such. So, you know, we got a lot of stuff going on. Then we built it so no pre-med can say, hey, I couldn't get access to this. You know, that's a lie now. If you have internet, you can get access to it. You just have to choose to go out and find it. And, you know, we have that stuff. We're not the only place. There's a lot of resources online now that you can go get access to stuff. So that should never be an excuse anymore. Right.
01:07:23
Speaker
And then, you know, the name, the name just came when I came up with the name several years ago, we just envisioned medicine becoming more diverse. And it wasn't just, it's not just like the people of medicine, but just what medicine stands for in and of itself. Medicine isn't just, you know, being in the hospital. The practice of medicine is diverse, right? As a physician, you are diverse. I'm not just a doctor in the hospital. When I go in the community, people
01:07:45
Speaker
people respect our voices as physicians, right? We have diverse roles in society. So that diverse medicine is powerful, just to remind us, hey, medicine, first of all, I believe should be, you know, representative of the population in terms of who's there. And then second of all, just remind us as physicians, hey, we're diverse, we're more than the white coat. That's very true. So you, audience, you heard it. Make sure you check diverse medicine and make sure you find a mentor and be consistent and
01:08:12
Speaker
be reliable in regards to whatever mentorship you find on there because Dr. Dale will come down on you. So yeah, we're gonna track you down, bring all estimate. What you find oftentimes is that as a pre-med, like we mentioned, it's difficult to find mentorship. But as this pre-med transitioned over to medical school,
01:08:33
Speaker
What do you think there are some things that we can do as medical students in creating the diversity that you've already cultivated and implementing change in terms of recruiting more black men into the pipeline and showing and showcasing the fact that being in the white coat is powerful, but there's more to it than being in the white coat.
01:08:55
Speaker
being able to be in our communities, be a leader, be someone that's respected, as you mentioned, be someone that can connect, not just with other physicians of color, but also connect with communities of color, whether you go to the barbershop or you go to the lounge. So how do you feel we can start implementing this change? I'm just gonna say, I love the way you threw in the lounge like that. I was pretty smooth, man. I like that. Thanks. You know, it goes, before I answer that, let me say one thing.
01:09:26
Speaker
You know, my ultimate goal, and people don't understand this, I don't talk about this much. My ultimate goal with Black Men and White Coals, Diverse Medicine, these films, all the stuff I do, is not necessarily to make one kid's dream come true. I love that, right? I do love that. I love seeing the kids. You know, this week alone, I don't know how many people have messaged me that we mentor through our organization saying I got into med school. We get this stuff all the time, and I love that. I love that feeling. But my ultimate goal is not just for somebody to become, to get into med school, right?
01:09:55
Speaker
We train leaders. That's what we do in our organizations. We spend a lot of time making sure people can learn the skills of leadership.
01:10:01
Speaker
And then along with that, what comes with that for me, what I'm really interested in is the influence and the impact we can have on society at large. Right. So, you know, although I'm not so as concerned about you becoming a doctor, what I'm concerned about is you becoming a person of influence in society, right? You become a doctor. What does that mean for you? That means you have a little bit more money in your pocket. That means you have more, more economic power in society. So your dollar, your dollar means something and you got a lot of dollars because you're a doctor now. That means your voice is louder.
01:10:30
Speaker
And that's how the change works. I am happy that you get to practice medicine and do all that. But in my opinion, if we really want to have the impact that we're looking for, the stuff we're seeing out there, the George Floyd, all that stuff that's going on right now, if we want to be in a position to actually change that stuff, people wearing white coats have to step outside of the hospital. So for me, every individual that makes it, that gets that diploma, that gets to put on that white coat, I'm excited you get to practice medicine. Cool. I love that. I'm happy about that.
01:10:59
Speaker
but I'm more optimistic and hopeful that you're gonna take that platform as a physician and go out and do things with it that can really impact change, right? So that's really why we do what we do. And going back to your question, what can we do? So I think one of the most important things, one of the things that's really lacking is we're just not going back into the communities. Not enough of us are going back. We don't go into the schools, don't talk. We do stuff at schools and schools we go to, they'll be like, yeah, nobody comes here, but I'm like, why does nobody come here?
01:11:29
Speaker
And they don't have to be black. I don't care what color you are. Somebody should go to these schools and talk to these kids. And that's just my thing. I just think people, whatever we can do to get out there, if you can't physically go to the school, make a podcast. There's no competition in podcasts. People listen to a million podcasts. We need more podcasts. Make a podcast. Just do something to get your voice out there to influence people.
01:11:54
Speaker
And I think you said something incredibly powerful in the fact that you're not just a physician, you have responsibilities to do more as a leader and whatever that niche may be. There's so many ways to find a niche where you can make a grander influence and impact. And I definitely resonate with that because that's how I felt coming into medical school. I was like, I'm not here just to sit down and learn all these biochemical pathways. I also want to learn.
01:12:18
Speaker
What else can I do to make such a significant influence on those that I may not truly connect with, or I may not see, or I may not encounter on a day-to-day basis? So I certainly- And as not to offend anybody, I do understand some people's passion is completely in medicine, so I don't want to discredit that, right? So if you want to be the master physician and spend your time doing that, we need that too, right? We need all those people.
01:12:44
Speaker
But there needs to be a certain percentage of us and a significant percentage of us that really focus on moving the ball forward and making sure the numbers don't drop. Right. Certainly. You mentioned numbers not dropping. Like we mentioned earlier, the numbers are dropping for black pre-med males around the country. But for that black pre-med male that's listening now, that's saying to himself,
01:13:12
Speaker
hey, I don't know if I can make it through this MCAT, or my GPA is too low, or am I in the right major, or I can't find the right mentors. What is one thing you would say to create a confidence in them to continue to move forward? You know, I'll tell them that.
01:13:36
Speaker
At the end of the day, at the end of the tunnel, what they need to remember is that there is a patient 10 years, 15 years out who's waiting for you to make it. There is somebody dying in a bed. They don't know it yet, right? You don't know it yet, but there is somebody who is waiting for you to become a doctor.
01:13:58
Speaker
Right? So they're relying on you to make this, right? So this isn't just about you getting past the MCAT. It's not just about, I'm not trying to put pressure on you, but I want you to understand this. And for me being in a position, for those of us who are physicians now, it makes perfect sense to us, right? Because we see this on a daily basis. Had I not made it, I wouldn't have been here to take care of this patient. And maybe somebody else would have taken care of them. Probably so, I don't know. But it was my calling to be the doctor for this patient. It is your calling to be the doctor for a patient who's waiting for you.
01:14:26
Speaker
So keep that in mind as you're working through this. And it's going to be hard. It's going to be ups and downs. But also remember that all of us go through difficulties. All of us go through difficulties. We all have our thing that we struggle with.
01:14:40
Speaker
And at the end of the day, we push through to get to our calling. You push through to get to your calling, right? We work hard. We don't quit. We don't give up. It might take one year, two years, three years, four years, 10 years. But if that's your calling, your calling will happen. It will come to fruition. So, you know, that's what I'll remind people. Don't quit, you know. You mentioned who doesn't have that MCAT. Who doesn't? My MCAT wasn't great, right? You know, I got through. I made it. My wife,
01:15:05
Speaker
She's a doctor too. We went to undergrad together and then she ended up going to a different medical school. She went to Meharry. I was at Missouri. And then, but when she was applying to med school, people told her not to apply. Her advisors. People would say, don't apply to med school. You're not going to get it. You're not, you know, like to rethink this. You want to consider the PA route. This is the talk. But I remember, I'll never forget what my wife told me. She says, you know what, Dale?
01:15:28
Speaker
I'm going to apply to med school. I'm going to let the admissions committees tell me no. I'm not going to let them tell me no. I'm going to let the admissions committees tell me no. She got into two med schools. She's a doctor. Has she listened to these people talking down in their head? She wouldn't be where she's at.
01:15:42
Speaker
All it takes is one school. I was talking to one of my mentees the other day and she goes to school up in PA and her advisor is telling her to go the LPN route and she's like, no, I wanna be a doctor. And I'm like, you know what, drop that advice, I'll be your advisor. I'm not trying to, nobody should deter you from your dreams. If you believe in it, then you'll certainly make way for it. Exactly, but with the caveats that you gotta put into work,
01:16:10
Speaker
Right. So some people will be out here thinking, Oh, I'm going to go to medical and they got a 2.0 GPA, but they don't put in the work. I can't help you. If you, if you willing to put in the work, somebody's going to take you just cause they, they appreciate that work ethic, but you got to put in the work, man. Right. That's certainly true. Well, let me get my step two studying materials ready. Cause that was, that was really good. Like, all right. I'm, I'm thinking to my patient right now, you know,
01:16:33
Speaker
The waiting for y'all and the waiting for you, man. Right, right. Certainly, certainly. So before we go, you know, we definitely appreciate you and all the knowledge and wisdom you've laid down today. But before we go, I also want to ask you to also inform the audience that how can they get in touch with you? How can they follow your podcast and your journey and what you're doing for our communities? So please lay down on them.
01:16:56
Speaker
Yeah, man. Appreciate it. So black men and white coats dot org, black men and white coats dot org. That's all our black men and white coat stuff. Diverse medicine dot com is probably what's going to be most useful to the pre-meds listening here. Diverse medicine dot com. Social media, man. I'm not the best. I don't even run our social media accounts to tell you the truth. Social media is at Team BMWC.
01:17:20
Speaker
as at Team BMWC. And my personal, I don't even be messing with my social media for real like I should. But find me on diversemedicine.com and follow us at Team BMWC. That's right, audience. Make sure you follow him. Make sure you check out Diverse Medicine. Make sure you check out Black Men and White Coats. They're doing great things. And last but not least, our fun question. Last fun question of the day. Okay.
01:17:44
Speaker
Before you do the fun question, I'm gonna do the SNMA plug too. Y'all follow SNMA, maps, all that stuff. You know, all of us, I was a member of all that stuff. So y'all make sure y'all doing all this. I know you're gonna say it anyways, but I'm just gonna double plug it. Y'all follow SNMA, maps, retweet the podcast, all that jazz, subscribe to the podcast. Yeah, so in your opinion, if you had to choose MJ versus these three individuals, which of these three individuals would be most likely to be MJ?
01:18:14
Speaker
And I'm biased, but I'll let you answer first. We're talking Jordan MJ this time. Yeah, Michael Jordan, my bad. Yes. Yes, Michael Jordan. Check it out. I'm gonna give you my answer before you even tell me who it is. Oh, okay. Options. Okay, go ahead. I'm gonna guess the three individuals that I think you got. The answer out of the three that I think you're gonna say
01:18:36
Speaker
I'm going to say Kobe. Yes. Was Kobe on your list? Yes, he was. All right. And I'm going to guess the other one on your list is LeBron. Yes. And then the last one on your list. I don't know. No, it was a random one. It was Steph Curry. All right. So Steph Curry would not beat him. Steph's my God. I love it. I love Steph Curry.
01:18:57
Speaker
I don't know, I'm just a Kobe fan. I don't know if he beat MJ or not. I don't know if he beat MJ, but I just love Kobe's mentality. I just love that mentality.
01:19:07
Speaker
Well, I'd like to thank you, Dr. Dale, for coming on. This was great. As he mentioned, make sure you check out all the endeavors he's doing, Black Men in White Coats, Diverse Medicine. He has a lot of initiatives that are coming up, so please stay tuned to what he's got in store, and I would like to thank you again for sponsoring our podcast and being our first interviewee. It's been an incredible experience, and I know the audience has learned a lot, and we look forward to seeing what else more you do. I know there's a lot more in store.
01:19:37
Speaker
Welcome back, everyone. This is student Dr.
Mindfulness and Listener Engagement
01:19:40
Speaker
Erica Dingle. So today's moment of mindfulness is occurring here in the lounge, and it's important to us that we make sure that everyone is prioritizing their mental health. These are stressful times, and we want to make sure that you all are taking care of yourselves. So we have simple ways to incorporate wellness into your busy schedules.
01:20:03
Speaker
Today we'll be doing a simple breathing exercise that you can use to center yourself in stressful times. Pick three numbers between one and 10. I'm picking seven, three, and five. So I breathe in for seven counts. I hold for three counts and I exhale for five counts. Now I want y'all to do this with me. All right. You ready? So in for seven.
01:20:37
Speaker
I'm holding for three, and I'm exhaling for five. That is your moment of mindfulness for the day. I hope you incorporate it into your daily practice. Thanks, guys. All right, what's good, people? We hope you're enjoying the discussion so far, but we want to hear from you, too.
01:21:04
Speaker
To join the conversation and provide your opinion, please reach out to us at podcast at SNMA.org with your thoughts on this week's episode for a chance to be featured in Councils, our listeners letter segment. And if you know a math chapter, a SNMA chapter, or SNMA alum doing big things,
01:21:26
Speaker
We wanna hear about that too. So email us, get a shout out, represent, represent. We want y'all to put on, so let us know the energy. We trying to feel the vibes, you dick.
01:21:40
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and thanks again for tuning into S&M Presents The Lounge. I'm student Dr. Isabella, and I'm glad to have the opportunity to interview two amazing individuals today, Dr. Gilbert Gonzalez and Dr. Isaiah Cochran. Thank you guys so much for taking the time to speak with us today.
01:21:58
Speaker
So I can't get into these questions just yet until I'm introduced to both of you are and what you've done so far to contribute to the areas of health and medicine.
Guests on LGBT Health and Advocacy
01:22:06
Speaker
So to begin, starting with Dr. Gonzalez, you have a master's in health administration, a PhD in health policy focusing on LGBT health. You're an assistant professor at the Center of Medicine, Health and Society, the Program for Public Policy Studies, and the Department of Health Policy at Vanderbilt University.
01:22:24
Speaker
Professor Gonzalez's research examines how public policies affect health outcomes, access to care, and health disparities for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender populations. So that is Dr. Gonzalez. Moving on to Dr. Isaiah Cochran. He is the immediate past president of AMSA, the American Medical Student Association.
01:22:44
Speaker
a major medical student organization with a keen focus on policy and with whom SNMA collaborated to present our first-ever virtual annual medical education conference. Dr. Cochran earned his medical degree from the Wright State University Boonshoff School of Medicine in Dayton, Ohio and is currently a family medicine resident at Halifax Health in Daytona, Florida.
01:23:06
Speaker
So thank you guys once again for coming on here. So to start, we just want to ensure that our audiences kind of understand the differences between gender identity and sex. Our audience kind of ranges from pre-med to medical student, possibly even some resident physicians and physicians who follow us. But the spectrum of how much people may know about gender identity versus sex is still very skewed. And so if you got
01:23:32
Speaker
If you guys could just kind of both give your own personal definition of the difference between those two terms, that would be great. Sure, I'll go ahead and begin. So for me, sex is oftentimes thought about as biological sex.
01:23:48
Speaker
What is the genetic makeup or genetic markers that may identify your biological sex? And oftentimes we assign that at birth as male or female and rarely intersects, but that is changing very rapidly. And then there's gender identity. What does a person feel like that their gender is and how do they express their gender on the outside?
01:24:14
Speaker
And for some of us, that's male or female. But for some of us, it may be a transgender identity. So someone who was born as male may feel that they are female and eventually, if they want to, transition to a more female expressing person. And we would call that person a transgender person.
01:24:40
Speaker
Yeah, I was just going to say that certainly is a great explanation. So I won't repeat that, but I'll just add it's so important to understand the differences between the two because as future health care providers and students of medicine, it is very important for us to understand where our patients are coming from and
01:25:01
Speaker
That is number one, when you're working with patients, you have to approach them the right way, whether it be using the correct pronouns or respecting cultural differences. It is very important to understand this. So if somebody was assigned to certain sex but identifies as a certain gender as a healthcare professional, we must do our best to, number one, figure out if they identify
01:25:29
Speaker
by a different identity th birth certificate. And t we do our best as young p of the health care team t of that as well. It's ver
01:25:48
Speaker
interactions with patients who are transgender that have gone wonderfully just by simply using pronouns properly. And I've seen visits go very badly because the respect was not there.
01:26:02
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's super important. Thank you for making note of that to the audience. And yeah, so just moving off of that, I want to start with you, Dr. Gonzalez. So could you just kind of tell us more about your work and how Masters of Health Administration kind of led to a PhD and now how you've used that to serve the LGBT community?
01:26:24
Speaker
Sure. I will say that I did my, I did the MHA or Masters of Healthcare Administration because of the great recession 10 years ago. I graduated from undergrad in 2008 and the economy was tanking. And so I managed to
01:26:42
Speaker
I was in grad school for a little bit longer. I knew I was no longer interested in going to medical school, but I knew I wanted to go into public health. I just didn't know how to do that. And so I got into an MHA program and I was very fortunate to have advisors say, you're pretty good at quantitative research and quantitative analysis. Have you ever thought
01:27:05
Speaker
about doing a PhD in health policy. And I'm a Hispanic person from South Texas and no one in my life ever recommended that I do a doctoral degree. So I was very fortunate to have advisors to point me that direction. And so I went to the University of Minnesota School of Public Health. I did a PhD in health policy there and I
01:27:33
Speaker
I stumbled into LGBT health research because when I started my PhD, I thought I would do children's health research. But again, it was just a matter of luck that some data fell into my hands.
01:27:52
Speaker
At the time, we weren't asking sexual orientation or gender identity, but we would look at health and access to care for people in same-sex households. And that led me into my career in LGBT health research.
01:28:08
Speaker
And I use secondary data sources, data sets that are either collected by the CDC or the US Census Bureau to identify, to track, to monitor LGBT health disparities. And this ranges from everything from mental health to physical health, chronic disease,
01:28:28
Speaker
Thank you, Dr. Cocken, for that response. And I just also wanted to note, you mentioned, you know, being president of AMSA. And so I wanted to ask you if you could just kind of tell us a little bit more about your work, being president of AMSA, and also what allowed you to be able to support and make change, you know, within the LGBT community through that role.
01:28:49
Speaker
Yeah, so I did start broad and get narrow. So I did a lot of work last year centered around health disparities. In fact, AMSEL will be having its health disparity scholars program kick off here in the fall. We're bringing it back.
01:29:06
Speaker
hasn't been happening for a while, but one focus that we'll be emphasizing is the disparities that we see in the LGBTQIA community. Specifically for me, I worked very closely with our gender and sexuality team on providing awareness to our members. So that is the very first thing that we always try to do.
01:29:27
Speaker
and amson that I always try to do is provide awareness to individuals and then equip them to be able to speak out on whatever they want to as you all know and if you don't know I'll share it with you there are a number of states in the country actually 31 last time I checked that do not have provisions that mandate LGBTQIA individuals being covered by health insurance or receiving health insurance so
01:29:57
Speaker
those places, if somebody doesn't want to insure someone for their sexuality, then they can choose not to, which is quite a shame. Absolutely.
Impact of Legal Changes on LGBT Healthcare
01:30:11
Speaker
So it's been some time providing awareness there in that realm. And then
01:30:17
Speaker
equipping individuals to be able to reach out to their legislators. I'm sure you all have picked up on a theme from what I'm saying already and I always talk about reaching out to legislators because I really believe in the power of the people and using your voice so I can't emphasize enough. If you see something is wrong,
01:30:36
Speaker
you have the power to change it and get people behind you to change that. So that is one thing that I really tried to do across the board in AMP. So whether it was LGBTQIA disparities or disparities that we see based on racial, on people's backgrounds and so on and so forth. So it's very important to understand that a lot of the work that
01:30:58
Speaker
many people in AMPS are doing a lot of work that many people in medicine who are involved in this kind of healthcare advocacy push is to really encourage others to join them and then to use their voices to make a change by reaching out to legislators. And then kind of the most low-hanging fruit that we have is by voting. And I'm sure you all- Yeah, that's super important. Exactly, by voting, putting people in office who we know are gonna make the change that we want to see.
01:31:28
Speaker
Exactly. And that's really timely considering that primaries are pretty much
01:31:33
Speaker
here for a lot of the states. Some states have already had their primaries, but other states are now getting that as well. So yeah, I'm glad you mentioned voting, because that's also very important. But I think that it's kind of funny that you just mentioned the health insurance coverage for LGBT people in that issue, because my next question is actually geared towards some recent events that have occurred. This question I have right now is geared towards both of you, but essentially,
01:32:01
Speaker
I wanted to call attention to the recent events that occurred within like the legal realm within the LGBT community. So one being the Bostock versus Clayton County, Georgia case where the Supreme Court ruled in favor of LGBT protections in employed spaces on the basis of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
01:32:20
Speaker
which states that one cannot be hired or fired on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, and religion. So basically, they determined that sexual orientation was also applicable to Title VII because you have to judge one's sex first in order to judge your sexual orientation. So they're both kind of inexplicitly tied. And now the second event, which was more so of a clear loss, had to deal with the Department of Health and Human Services no longer recognizing gender identity.
01:32:49
Speaker
as an avenue for sex discrimination in healthcare. And so that was eliminating protections for the transgender community. So kind of based on the details of these events, how do both of you think that these policies are gonna affect the health of these populations moving forward?
01:33:05
Speaker
I just want to say first that we'll go with the good first. It was very moving to me and I was very happy to hear about the mandates that have been put in place in the workplace for people in the LGBTQA community. So I have to say that I was very, very happy about that. When it comes to the
01:33:30
Speaker
to the rule that was put out by the Trump administration in regards pretty much the discrimination against LGBTQ people. It was horrible because first of all, it happened on June 12th, and I'm sure many of you may know, but if you don't, June 12th, four years ago was when the Pulse nightclub shooting happened in Orlando.
01:33:50
Speaker
I'm now based in Daytona Beach, Florida, and I have really great friends in Orlando. Orlando is under an hour away from me, so fairly close to Orlando. So when I saw that on the anniversary of such a horrible event, not just for the LGBTQIA community, but just for human beings in general, that really just, I mean, not to get too political, but the Trump administration has done many things to leave a bad taste in many of our mouths, but this was almost like it's been on.
01:34:20
Speaker
I was very sad to see that. And so when you asked what does this mean for our communities, when it comes to the mandates for us not being discriminated against when it comes to being in the workplace, that's great. That means that if there is anything done against us on the basis of our sexual orientation, then we have a law backing us. But when it comes to not being able to potentially receive health care,
01:34:49
Speaker
And I've just shared with you about the tidbit about the insurance companies. 31 states don't have to include people of the LGBTQIA background if they don't want to. Now with this on top of that, rolling back something that was put in place by the Obama administration as a part of the Affordable Care Act is just horrible.
01:35:12
Speaker
We already know that kind of similarly to the African-American communities and other communities of color, that the suicide rates and disparities that we see in LGBTQ individuals is higher than that of other populations. So what this does is it opens up the doors
01:35:31
Speaker
for individuals to be discriminated against and to not receive the health care that we deserve. And so
Religious Freedom and Healthcare Discrimination
01:35:37
Speaker
I always say when one of us loses, all of us lose. This is not good at all. And I'll let Dr. Gonzalez speak more because I'm sure he has a lot of great insight on this. Yes. I would agree with Dr. Cochran on these issues. Winning at the Supreme Court, protections and employment was a good win for the LGBTQ community.
01:35:59
Speaker
Before the Supreme Court case came down, a person could still get fired because of their sexual orientation or gender identity in about 30-ish states.
01:36:09
Speaker
So this gives those protections to those LGBT Americans living in those states. The funny thing is, is that most people who are not in the space already thought that LGBT Americans had these rights. Right. I'm not sure if this is going to make that much of a difference. And some of my research shows that it's not just marriage equality, it's not just
01:36:32
Speaker
employment-based discrimination protections, but LGBT Americans need comprehensive legal protections in housing and in education and public accommodations and finance sectors. I think that's what it will take to improve health outcomes for LGBT Americans.
01:36:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good point that you made. Could you actually go a little bit more into like, you know, maybe other areas that are lacking of LGBT, you know, concern and focus within a legal realm. So like, you know, we all know about marriage equality, we kind of know, I think about health protections. But like you mentioned, like housing and other issues, like people aren't really, I think that much aware of it. So is there any other things you can say, focusing on those areas? Yeah, yeah, I would. And
01:37:22
Speaker
These are areas that we call the social determinants of health, the places where we live, work and play that affect our health outcomes. And one example is an education. We know that children, LGBT children, youth and adolescents get bullied at very young ages, even into college and maybe even in medical school. But if we had in education, then we would be able to
01:37:51
Speaker
allow LGBT educators to protect them in those schools, but also protect students in those schools. And this is related to what is called the Equality Act. It was passed by the House of Representatives, I believe early last year. And right now it doesn't have a chance in the Senate, but this would extend
01:38:16
Speaker
non-discrimination protections in education and housing and in public accommodation. So there's a bill on the table, but we just need the lawmakers to get this passed in order to protect LGBT Americans. Right. Yes, thank you for that. And just going into this next question, also for both of you, you guys are both
01:38:39
Speaker
I have just one more comment, and I'm sorry for interrupting. This has to do with something else that Dr. Cochran mentioned about the Office of Civil Rights within the Department of Health and Human Services taking away some protections for LGBT Americans in health care.
01:38:57
Speaker
And this is happening under the guise of religious freedom. Providers can deny patients or health services if it violates their conscience, their closely held beliefs and their religious freedom. And I think that this is going to lead to some religious exemptions for providers, for facilities to deny LGBTQIA
01:39:26
Speaker
patients and their health services. And one example is mental health providers. And we see this here in Tennessee, where mental health providers in the state of Tennessee have religious freedom protections and they can deny patients
01:39:41
Speaker
based off of their sexual orientation or gender identity. If you're a psychiatrist and you don't believe, or if you're not an LGBT affirming provider, you probably should not be treating LGBT patients. But I worry about the LGBT person in rural Tennessee who may have a mental health emergency, and there may only be one psychiatrist
01:40:10
Speaker
in that county. And so that that provider should provide the best care they can to save that person. Right. And yeah, yeah, actually, that's very interesting. And so actually moving forward with what you're talking about. So are there any legal proceedings that are being done so far to like require physicians to, you know, treat all not really have any preferences, especially if they're in an area that's like, you know, kind of not necessarily in the middle of nowhere, but just kind of like not really
01:40:38
Speaker
there's only like one doctor for like that particular area. And like they have a duty, you know, to protect everyone. Like, is there any kind of legal, you know, proceedings that are going on in that arena? Or is it just kind of like, you know, there's just if you have religious freedom, you can do what you want. And everybody else has to kind of figure out their own method of health care. How you know,
01:41:01
Speaker
I'll let Dr. Cochran add to this, but right now I think it's just maybe a dozen states that guarantee non-discrimination protections in healthcare. And so if those providers are receiving federal or state dollars, they probably cannot, in those handful of states, they probably cannot deny LGBT patients or care. But this is another area that is just not gaining enough traction right now, from my opinion.
01:41:31
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And I'll just add, yeah, I'll just add that Dr. Gonzalez was pretty much hit it perfectly on the head with his numbers. It's, you know, 13 states and then plus DC. And I only know about DC because I was physically there this last year. But he's exactly right. And it's quite unfortunate.
01:41:56
Speaker
I will add, though, that the medical schools are getting better at training medical students in LGBT health. You know, now there are finally electives in LGBT health. But I think there's still a lot to go because the average medical student may get one hour
01:42:16
Speaker
on LGBT health across their four years. They decide not to take an elective on health disparities or LGBT health, but it's usually just someone coming in, presenting some data and statistics on LGBTQ health for one hour, and then that's it.
01:42:34
Speaker
No, yeah, that, yeah, there's definitely still a long way to go clearly. So yeah, but at least it seems like based on what you've said that the issues being a little bit more aware, I think, but you know, this is America. So there's still a
Racism within the LGBT Community
01:42:49
Speaker
lot more that we have to cover when it comes to LGBT community and everything regarding that. And so I just have another question for you both. You guys are both, you know,
01:42:58
Speaker
within the LGBT community, both people of color who are within the LGBT community. And so what kind of differences have you seen just between people who are just LGBT non-POC and versus someone who's POC LGBT, like the struggles that they've had to face within health just in general?
01:43:19
Speaker
So I will say that, you know, and this is, I had the opportunity to speak to another group of people specifically about this topic. And before I get into your exact question, I have to say, I feel like maybe even a bigger issue is that
01:43:37
Speaker
more people of color unfortunately have lower socioeconomic status is putting them in a situation where they might not have equal access to health care. And so I have seen people who are people of color and people who are not of color who
01:43:57
Speaker
unfortunately don't have the financial stability just be treated badly and primarily because they're looked at a certain way and people view them a certain way. I will say that of course we have our people out there that are racist and then adding your sexual orientation which is different from the majority into it just makes those people even more mean.
01:44:27
Speaker
One thing I will say is that I think we have to do the best that we can to really make health care accessible to every single person and not have it necessarily only attached to someone's job. Because as you can see, you can have someone who is working and then when they lose their job, they can also lose their health care because... Health insurance, yeah. Exactly.
01:44:52
Speaker
But obviously, you know, I have seen people of color treated terribly, whether they're LGBTQ or not, but specifically in the LGBTQ realm, where I've really seen it more than anywhere else is when it comes to transgender individuals. Unfortunately, transgender individuals
01:45:13
Speaker
of color, I must say they tend to be discriminated against more than any other group that I have seen. In clinic, I've only interacted with a few patients that were transgender people of color just due to the fact that there is not that many of them in that many places.
01:45:34
Speaker
But I think one thing that Dr. Gonzalez said that might be leading to a change in the way that people in terms of health care are being discriminated against is the fact that medical students now are being offered electives and then in some schools even being mandated to take
01:45:51
Speaker
training when it comes to working with people who are transgender and in the LGBTQIA community. So I think that, and I believe that, that will make a change. You have to think about it also when people are not trained to work with people and then they're under the pressure to perform, I'm not justifying how physicians have acted towards people because it's not right.
01:46:15
Speaker
But we also knew the part that we can to train our young doctors to make sure that they do know how to work with these individuals. Right. Yes. Yeah, that's that makes a lot of sense. I do think that training is a huge factor into how someone just practices in the future and like how they, you know, behave moving forward with all populations. So yes, thank you, Dr. Cochran. And Dr. Gonzalez, feel free to comment as well on the question.
01:46:38
Speaker
Yeah, I would echo some of the concerns about trans people of color. We have an epidemic right now on killings against trans women, specifically African-American and Black trans women. Hundreds of them are dying a year and being killed to some very brutal hate crimes. And so this is a major crime. Right. Well, let's see.
01:47:06
Speaker
You know, I was lucky enough to have lunch with Barney Frank last year. He was the first out LGBT member of Congress. And I think he said it best. LGBT Americans are gaining so many rights towards equality and equity.
01:47:28
Speaker
But we're leaving behind our black and brown Americans in many ways when states are denying Medicaid expansion and places where there are a lot of Hispanic, Latinx, African-American people. So I worry a lot that it's really just the black and brown Americans who are being left behind in our country. And it's very disheartening.
01:47:58
Speaker
Very true. I think you guys have made it clear that people of color who are LGBT are facing much more hardships, maybe compared to those who are not people of color. And I think that just goes into the fact that people of color have a lot more disparities and just like social factors, economic factors that they have to
01:48:19
Speaker
overcome in addition to being LGBT. And so thank you kind of like for clarifying those differences that are faced, you know, between the two groups and kind of, you know, maybe things that we're kind of overlooking when it comes to treating individuals like that or, you know, or interacting with individuals like also add that, you know, racism is not absent in the LGBT community.
01:48:43
Speaker
Yeah, you know, racism is still an issue within the community. Segregation is an issue that I'm very concerned about the example and it's still pride month, but many cities will have a pride event and then there may be a black pride.
01:49:02
Speaker
And for me, I approach this as something that may, and Dr. Cochran can speak on this too, but this is something that I feel like it's, to me as a Hispanic person, it feels a little bit disheartening and that there's not a unified LGBT community. Right.
Providing Inclusive Care for LGBT Patients
01:49:27
Speaker
I can, to remain as,
01:49:32
Speaker
politically politically correct as I can I will just say that you don't have to though you know you can you can tip the pot just a little bit but it's okay correct uh unfortunately uh from since I can remember you know
01:49:49
Speaker
Sometimes in the LGBTQ community, we can pick on one another, and it's quite sad. I always believe when we unite, no matter who I'm talking about, when you unite with people, you can make it a lot further. And I think that sometimes in the LGBTQIA community, racism can be pervasive. And as Dr. Gonzalez said, there are Black pride events.
01:50:17
Speaker
sometimes those black pride events happen because unfortunately people of color don't feel included into the community and I think that that people point to is you know very for a very long time you know when we did have gay characters in movies and gay characters in tv shows it was always our cis gendered white male and so the rest of us were like right
01:50:40
Speaker
us. What about I don't ha with. And it's kind of li think of medicine, you d Americans in the field. S
01:50:57
Speaker
I have to say, I can't, I cannot be on here without stating this. Many of you probably are aware, you know, in the African-American community, you know, homophobia is definitely a real thing. Super pervasive, right. So our own community was not even, you know, for a very long, you know, I'm glad it's changing now, but for so long wasn't even accepting us. So imagine being a double minority and then you're a minority in your own group. Exactly.
01:51:26
Speaker
Right, no, those are great points. Yeah, I think that, you know, you guys making that kind of clarification with the fact that racism doesn't just go away because you're like in a different group, because you're still black at the end of the day, you still have to face that plus, you know,
01:51:42
Speaker
what other group you identify with. So yeah, thank you for that. And so just kind of moving into a question regarding just clinical care. So of course, our audience is composed of people who are mainly people who want to become doctors, maybe people who are training to be doctors, or maybe even just doctors in general. And so how do we as physicians or physicians in training offer good care for the LGBT community, especially those who identify as people of color and
01:52:09
Speaker
also kind of giving consideration to some issues like trans men needing to receive OBGYN care, unmarried queer couples, and the end of life decision making that they have to make. So those kinds of issues that have to be faced, how do we provide that care as people who want to become doctors?
01:52:30
Speaker
I think my best response is that do what is best for your patients and and be have humility. I think that you know by treating everyone fairly and being as as kind as you can and also making sure that you maintain your
01:52:49
Speaker
patient physician relationship but making sure that you are there for all your patients treating all your patients equally can really make a big difference you know patients can see when you truly are invested in them and patients can see when you truly care about the situation that they're going through so right
01:53:06
Speaker
you probably have heard it's the little things that count the most sometimes. And I believe when it comes to clinical care, obviously we need to do our best to make sure that we are doing everything to a T when it comes to clinical medicine. But that interpersonal touch is also very, very important. And I believe for me, I've seen docs who approach all of the patients the same way and very good doctors approach all their patients the same way.
01:53:36
Speaker
they have such great outcomes with their patients because number one, their patients know that the doctor respects them. And I think that can really carry you so far when you show your patients that you respect them. Right, right. Thank you, of course.
01:53:52
Speaker
Dr. Gonzalez, feel free as well to answer this question. Do you want me to repeat? Because I know that was a lot. Okay. This is great. I think it's getting better, but we still need to just be aware and be mindful of every patient's sexual orientation and gender identity. That information needs to be collected in intake forms.
01:54:16
Speaker
in early communications with the patient. Why does that matter? Because we need to know, you know, what are some of the circumstances that may be going on? So if someone shows up in your clinic with depression or anxiety and it's a young LGBT person, you know, maybe there's something going on at school or at home that could be affecting their mental health.
01:54:43
Speaker
When we can write plans, we need to be patient positions should be mindful that that LGBT Americans are different than their heterosexual and cisgender counterparts. They're less very true. Yeah, they're less likely to have a partner or a spouse. And it's important to use language that is also gender neutral. So right asking a gay man
01:55:06
Speaker
if his wife can pick up his prescription medication is kind of a microaggression. I hate having to out myself every time I'm asked about my wife. I don't have a wife, I have a spouse and he's a man. It's important to be mindful of every patient's sexual orientation, gender identity, and it will make the physician-patient interaction better,
01:55:37
Speaker
It will
Advancing LGBT Rights in Healthcare
01:55:38
Speaker
lead to better satisfaction in care and probably more likely for a patient to complete their treatment and return if needed. Right. Thank you so much for that. Last but not least, but you guys are still going to be able to share your final thoughts at the end of the episode. But just for those who are becoming doctors or interested in treating these LGBT communities,
01:56:04
Speaker
What are just kind of some pearls of wisdom you have when doing either a patient encounter or maybe just doing research in LGBT communities? What's kind of like a word of wisdom you have for the audience?
01:56:16
Speaker
Yeah, so I think that the first thing, and I'm talking about, you know, whether it's in the ED, whether it's in on the floors and inpatient setting, whether you're in an outpatient office, I think, you know, when especially as a medical student, because as a medical student, sometimes you get to be the first one to go in and talk to the patient, maybe you in an intern or you in a
01:56:40
Speaker
a resident. So you actually get to kind of start off the physician-patient relationship. So if you are unsure of how to address someone, it is totally okay to ask someone, what pronouns do you use? I have never seen, I've done it. I mean, I'm in the community and I do it because I don't always know either.
01:57:04
Speaker
Right. So when you ask that, that tells the person, okay, this person wants to make sure that they are addressing me the right way. So I think that if you are nervous on, you know, I've had peers who said, I didn't know how to address the person. I'm like, you can ask like, what pronouns do you go by?
01:57:25
Speaker
AMSA, in fact, has had a couple of sessions on this, but I also want to highlight my med school, Wright State University School of Medicine. We had a number of sessions with transgender
01:57:39
Speaker
patients and patients in the community. And I'll tell you what all of them said. Hey, we don't mind you asking, what pronouns do we go by? We're not expecting you to walk in and already have the answer. So I think that's my role. It's totally OK to ask. It's kind of like when you first learn how to do a patient interview. And when it comes to the sexual history, sometimes that can be the thing where you're like, oh, I don't want to ask this. I don't want to ask this. Yeah.
01:58:09
Speaker
Right. Right. Thank you. I agree with Dr. Cochran. It's okay to ask for help and to ask a person and to be vulnerable and say, look, I don't know what pansexual is. Can you tell me what that means to you? It's okay to ask those hard questions.
01:58:32
Speaker
I think if someone wants to be an ally and the easiest and most minimalist thing that they can do is to demonstrate their ally ship. And I always recommend physicians to just put a little rainbow sticker on their name tag, maybe a rainbow flag on their letter, but just showing the LGBT patient in front of you that you care and you're an ally.
01:59:02
Speaker
That's a big difference because every time an LGBT patient enters a clinic or some facility, they're looking for cues on whether they will be in a safe environment or not. Right.
01:59:15
Speaker
difference if they see a rainbow sticker, a rainbow flag, versus a Bible in a... Right. Yeah, no, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I've, yeah, and it's I've seen, I've seen that, of course, walking to hospitals, I've seen, you know, the little rainbow ID tag. And I think, yeah, that's a, it's a really subtle way to just kind of say that, you know, I stand with you, I'm here.
01:59:42
Speaker
and like you can feel safe. So yeah, I completely agree. And so just before we close off, do you guys have any last thoughts that you wanna share with our audience? I'm starting first with Dr. Gonzalez and of course, I'm Dr. Cochran, you can follow with your own thoughts.
01:59:55
Speaker
Yeah, so with my experience with training medical students in LGBT health research, I always advise medical students to just take a chance on new opportunities. And if you're unfamiliar with LGBT health, and you're interested, seek out those resources, seek out those faculty.
02:00:16
Speaker
who are ready and willing to train the next generation of physicians because, you know, I don't have a lot of hope for the older doctors in our country, but I have hope with the young physicians and the rising generation of physicians. I am so, I think that's the one thing in this world, in this crazy world that we live in,
02:00:42
Speaker
that I have hope in because they're passionate, they care, and they're motivated to make a difference, not just for all Americans, but other marginalized and vulnerable populations. So I have a lot of hope and I would just encourage them to not stop and stay woke. Thank you for that. Yeah, that was excellent. And I'll just add to that, you know, we are in a,
02:01:11
Speaker
different time right now, trying time, many would say, and I agree.
02:01:17
Speaker
Before this and after this, what I'm about to say remains, we have to treat others the way that we want to be treated. I truly believe that if we all woke up in the morning and did just that, we would see so many things changed so quickly. So those of us in the positions that we're in, going to be future healthcare providers, we can really make a difference by leading by example.
02:01:43
Speaker
be the change that you want to see. And we have a lot of things that need to be changed. And kind of like Dr. Gonzalez said, I don't have a lot of hope for maybe some of the older folks, not just in healthcare, but some of the older folks in a lot of different fields. Just in general, yeah. They just don't want to change, but it's
02:02:05
Speaker
It's not okay, but it's also a thing where we can do better and I believe that we can. So with that being said, I really hope that, you know, not just when it comes to LGBTQIA people, of course, I want to make sure that, you know, those of you who want to get involved and use your voice to help this community, please do so. But, you know, we really have to make sure that we do help all marginalized individuals because as I said earlier,
02:02:33
Speaker
When one of us loses, we all lose, but when one of us wins, we all win. So I really hope that, you know, this time can really bring us all together because I really don't like seeing the divide on either side, no matter.
02:02:47
Speaker
what political party you fall in line with, and no matter what your thoughts are, we have a lot more in common than we do not have in common. So I hope that we can use this opportunity that has been given to us. Although how, no matter how tough it is right now for all of us, it's a time for us to come together. So I really thank you all. SNMA, you guys are amazing. I really
02:03:10
Speaker
have enjoyed not only working with you guys on the convention, but obviously we had a very strong SNMA chapter at Wright State. Two of the presidents, I think in the last five years have come from Wright State. So obviously I'm, yeah, I'm an EVA and then Christie who was president, I believe 2016, 2017. So, you know, I know that, I know you guys are great. And so please keep doing the great work that you're doing. Thank you so much for that. We really appreciate it.
02:03:40
Speaker
But yeah, thank you guys for your responses. Well, those were all the questions I have for you both today, but I really want to commend you guys for showing up and just showing out with the explicit details of what advocacy and clinical care looks like for the LGBT community. And just what we can do as individuals moving forward to help contribute to the cause. But before we close though, how can our audience reach you both with any possible questions they may have? Are you guys like on social media? How can our audience
02:04:09
Speaker
you know, get to reach out to you. So the running joke is still Isaiah loves to give out his phone number and I'm going to give you my phone number because it's the easiest way for me to interact with folks better than email back to you. So my phone number is 330-814-2694. That is 330-814-2694. I prefer that. And if I get questions about this topic,
02:04:39
Speaker
I want to talk to you. I don't want to go through email. I want to talk to you. So thank you to me. Thank you for that. I may not get my phone number, but you're a listener, so thank you for throwing me on Twitter. Gail Bean Gonzalez, or reach me by email at gilbert.gonzalez at vanderbilt.edu.
02:05:02
Speaker
Thank you guys so much for that. Okay, well to the audience, we hope you all learned something new and can utilize this information moving forward in your own personal lives and careers. Now let's wrap up the show.
02:05:14
Speaker
Be sure to follow SNMA on social media to stay up to date on upcoming events like Blackout Day, July 7th. Do not go out. Do not spend any money on July 7th, because we got economic power as people of color. They want us to be out here purchasing. We have an opportunity to say no. The most important things is the rights for social justice, for equality, for the understanding of our communities and representing and communicating that.
02:05:46
Speaker
And don't forget to apply to the Regional Alliance Program, an introduction to leadership at SNMA on the regional level. These applications are due August 16th, so be sure to apply. And the Call for Faces of the Frontline campaign, a student-led campaign built to inspire discourse around the current crisis using arts. And last but not least, the SNMA Kaiser Permanente Fellowship is actually due tonight, this evening, so be sure to apply to that too.
02:06:16
Speaker
Thank you guys so much for tuning into our first episode. We appreciate you, our listeners, and we hope that you will continue to come on, join us for our chats, for our laughs, and for the betterment of our Black community. Don't forget to check out Student National Medical Association at snma.org. Take care, y'all.
02:06:44
Speaker
you