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Dr Bill Richards: Living until you die: Psychedelic Assisted Therapy at the end of life
224 Plays1 month ago
William A. Richards (Bill), Senior Advisor at Sunstone Therapies and a psychologist in the Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, has been involved in psychedelic research since 1963. He also is also associated with the Program in Psychedelic Therapiesand Research at the California Institute of Integral Studies. From 1967 to 1977, he implemented projects with LSD, DPT, MDA and psilocybin at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center, including protocols designed to investigate the promise of psychedelics in the treatment of alcoholism, depression, narcotic addiction and the psychological distress associated with terminal cancer. His recent research at Johns Hopkins, in collaboration with colleagues at New York University, has focused on the potential value of psilocybin in the continuing education of professional religious leaders from different world religions. At Sunstone Therapies, he is focused on integrating psychedelic therapy into palliative care. His book, Sacred Knowledge:Psychedelics and Religious Experiences, published by Columbia University Press, now has been translated into multiple languages.
We also explore: why psychedelic therapy is helpful in people with life limiting illnesses, what cancer clients report after psychedelic assisted therapy, the importance of involving the family in the healing process, how grief shows up in the body and how psychedelics can help us process this, societal views on death and dying and how psychedelics could help to shift these.
Bill Richards – Book
https://www.amazon.com.au/Sacred-Knowledge-Psychedelics-Religious-Experiences/dp/0231174063
Keep in touch with me at
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BeyondtheTrippodcast
Insta: dresmedark
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esme-dark-627156a0/
Website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/
Find Monash Clinical Psychedelic Lab at www.monash.edu/psychedelics
Disclaimer: This Podcast is for general information only and does noy constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic assisted psychotherapy
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Beyond the Trip, a psychedelic therapy podcast with me, Dr. Esme Dark. During this podcast, I'll be bringing you conversations with thought leaders and other inspiring humans, exploring a wide variety of themes relating to the use of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy in the healing of human distress.
00:00:27
Speaker
Whether you're an aspiring therapist, already a therapist, or just simply interested in the emerging field of psychedelic therapy, then this podcast is for you. Join me for a journey into the psychedelic world.
00:00:43
Speaker
Before we get started, I want to take a moment to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the unceded land on which this podcast is recorded, the Wadawurrung people. I pay my respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
00:00:57
Speaker
And I extend that respect to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.
Pioneering Research in Psychedelics
00:01:04
Speaker
Hi everybody, welcome to be Beyond the Trip. I'm delighted to be able to bring you another conversation with Dr. Bill Richards. He was our first guest in episode one of season one of Beyond the Trip.
00:01:20
Speaker
And he is a true pioneer in the psychedelic research space. He's been involved in this work since the beginning from the original research that took place in the sixties up until the present day.
00:01:32
Speaker
He is someone one who I deeply respect and whose work has been very influential on me personally. It didn't feel enough just to have Phil come on the podcast just once. I had so many topics that I wanted to talk more with him about.
00:01:46
Speaker
And today we dive into one of those, which is his work in the palliative care space, something that he's been involved in since the early days.
Psychedelics in Grief and Palliative Care
00:01:55
Speaker
At times, this conversation leans in a little more into our personal experiences with grief and loss.
00:02:02
Speaker
It's such a human topic, it felt wrong not to mention this. We also explore why psychedelic therapy is helpful in people with life-limiting illnesses, such as cancer.
00:02:15
Speaker
We talk about what cancer patients report after using psychedelic-assisted therapy. And we talk about the importance of involving the family and the healing process. We get into the somatic sensations of grief and how that shows up in the body.
00:02:32
Speaker
And we talk about how societal views on death and dying are in the West and get curious about whether psychedelics could help us to shift these. Bill has an extensive history in this space.
00:02:47
Speaker
He first became involved in psychedelic research in 1963, and he was actually the last person to be able to legally administer psychedelic therapy as part of a research trial before the original research was shut down in 1977.
00:03:03
Speaker
He is a key figure in the re-emergence of psychedelic research when and began his work with Roland Griffith and Mary Cosimano at John Hopkins University.
00:03:15
Speaker
He has a particular interest in the use of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy in palliative care, and that's what we're going to be diving into today.
Dr. Richards' Contributions and Insights
00:03:24
Speaker
He's the consultant and trainer at multiple sites of psychedelic research internationally, including Monash University, where I work.
00:03:33
Speaker
At Sunstone Therapies, he serves as a senior advisor And his book, Sacred Knowledge, Psychedelic and Religious Experiences, has been translated into multiple languages.
00:03:46
Speaker
highly recommend this book for anyone who's interested in this field. I'll put a link to it in the show notes, along with a paper that he's recently published about psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy.
00:03:59
Speaker
So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. I'm delighted to be able to bring you some more of Bill's wisdom. So let's get into it.
00:04:09
Speaker
Welcome back to the podcast, Bill. It's so wonderful to have you here joining us again today and feel so lucky that you have been able to come for a part two.
00:04:21
Speaker
I'm yeah really pleased about that. Part one was so wonderful and such a beautiful way to start the whole podcast project. And now I'm nearing the end of the recording of season one and starting to record season two. So really, really honored to have you as part of that.
00:04:37
Speaker
Well, thank you very much for including me again. It's an honor to be part of a project like this. Thank you. and And, you know, last time we we in in the for anyone listening who hasn't heard it, the very first episode of this podcast was an interview with Bill Richards. So do pop back and have a listen to that.
00:04:59
Speaker
and Today, we're going to be kind of focusing in on a particular area of interest for you, and which is your work in the palliative care space with psychedelics. and And so that's something that I've been interested in for a long time as well. And there's been different research projects happening over here in Australia, of course, with Marg Ross and her team um was one of the first trials that was looking at psilocybin in cancer patients.
00:05:24
Speaker
and but would love to just tell start from the beginning for you. that when this This work in the palliative care space started early in the piece for you, I think, but actually I don't know exactly where. So when did you get interested in working with psilocybin or psychedelics and with palliative care and why?
00:05:46
Speaker
Yeah, well, ah when I was 27 years old, living in Boston at the time, i was offered a job in Baltimore where psychedelic research was going on.
00:06:01
Speaker
Yes. And at the Spring Grove Hospital Center, they had two US government federal grants ah for psychedelic research, one in the treatment of alcoholism and one in the treatment of ah o personality disorders, hospitalized, very depressed people.
00:06:25
Speaker
and um But they were also just starting ah to work with cancer patients, ah quite terminal patients at the time.
00:06:37
Speaker
And that that intrigued me, especially our Maybe in part because i was trained both in ah theology, psychology of religion, as well as clinical psychology. Yes.
00:06:59
Speaker
And caring about people, whether in a pastoral way or a psychotherapeutic way, ah made sense to me. Yes. yeah the The research had just begun with cancer patients in Baltimore.
00:07:14
Speaker
And the way it began is that a social worker on the staff developed advanced breast cancer. And they had witnessed how helpful it was to many of the alcoholics and people suffering from depressions from other causes and thought, well, you know let's give her some and see if it's helpful.
00:07:40
Speaker
And she discussed it with her family and ah ah they decided to go ahead. And she had an incredibly meaningful, positive, helpful experience.
00:07:54
Speaker
oh that just enabled her to live more fully the time that was left. And ah then that launched um getting grant support.
00:08:12
Speaker
I think it was from oh the Mary Reynolds Babcock Foundation way back then. What year was this, Bill? This was 1967. So, yeah, back in the early days. hey Yeah, I was younger then. ah but on
00:08:39
Speaker
I treated maybe the fourth or fifth person in the study when I moved here. yes And each person I worked with was just...
00:08:53
Speaker
oh uniquely meaningful is the best I can say. jerry These were people who were bedridden ah in ah single hospital rooms and just thankful for anything that might help their depression or anxiety or pain for that matter. Yeah.
00:09:18
Speaker
And...
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah, that are led to a study. This first study was with LSD. hey thought And then we did, it was the PT dipropyl triptomy, a shorter-acting psychedelic.
00:09:39
Speaker
Well, now the fibon is ongoing that I'm involved with. Yeah. But, oh you know, i must be.
00:09:52
Speaker
at least a couple hundred patients by now who have gone through their... And no one has been harmed. Wow. Yeah.
00:10:04
Speaker
Some people have benefited more dramatically than others. a But I haven't met a single ah person who regretted going through them the research project.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's I think it's it. and and And so it sounds like it was kind of something that happened quite in a way organically within the team. I didn't know that, that someone that that had to go was going through that, you know, and cancer is something that is so so widespread, it can touch so many people's lives, you know. so it's so beautiful to have this way of working.
00:10:47
Speaker
And so you kind of were involved in that early research and now you're still, tell us about that, the journey that you've been on with this work, take that wherever you want, because it's probably a long story.
Psychedelics and the Concept of Death
00:10:59
Speaker
You know, that sounds like that was in the sixties and then you're still working in this space. In fact, you're doing this- Believe it or not, people are still mortal in 2024. Yeah.
00:11:13
Speaker
Yeah, death isn't just something that sometimes happens to other people. is It's part of life for all of us. Yeah. And ah we kind of tend to live in denial of it. Right.
00:11:29
Speaker
wow And maybe ah that's not very healthy. One of my big hopes is that gradually this research will normalize dealing with death. Yes. And yeah just as ah birth is not taboo, why should death be taboo, you know?
00:11:48
Speaker
Absolutely. We come in for what buddhist Buddhists call one precious human life and we live it as fully as we can. And then it's time to say, so long, I'm off to new adventures or whatever is next.
00:12:05
Speaker
Yes.
00:12:08
Speaker
the The value of the psychedelic therapy, it's ah well, it's It's hard to put it into one sentence because there are so many different states of consciousness that can be experienced during the action of a psychedelic.
00:12:28
Speaker
co here And some may not be transcendental, mystical, archetypal at all. They may just be ordinary dealing with guilt and g grief and traumas and family relationships.
00:12:43
Speaker
But at the very least, it's very intensive psychotherapy. Yes. and And just on that level, people are just... ah it gets them out of their isolation.
00:12:58
Speaker
yeah you know So often people are kind of lying in bed more or less, not wanting anyone to see them this way. you know, estranged from family, just waiting for the next dose of pain medication.
00:13:15
Speaker
You know, like that there a they're barely living. yeah and And to see those people come alive.
00:13:26
Speaker
i mean, literally, ah we had recently a person who said, well, ah I don't know if we... We have a group therapy of cancer patients going on. And yeah you know there's this line, one of them said, well, I don't know which of us is going to die next, but I'm off to Europe.
00:13:44
Speaker
this issue better it Yeah, right. But I mean, they are literally living until they die.
00:13:56
Speaker
yeah My hunch is, though we haven't done research in it in any respectable way yet, but that many of these people seem to live much longer than they're expected to.
00:14:10
Speaker
a And my hunch is that when you're engaged in life and you're eating well and you're enjoying relationships and you're taking your medication as prescribed, ah your immune system works better.
00:14:25
Speaker
ti And some of these people, there are some who were expected to die four years ago who are still alive, you know? yes yeah Not everyone, but it makes you think,
00:14:39
Speaker
You know, when there's remission, of course, the surgeon says it's because of the wonderful surgery. And the radiologist says it's because of the great radiology. And the chemotherapist says it's because of chemotherapy. But who knows? Maybe it's all together. But the the psychological will to live yes and fullness of living is an important piece of that, I think.
00:15:04
Speaker
i Yeah, I think so too. And I think, you know, yeah there's a lot of research into that space in general, isn't there? But there's not, we don't know yet for sure, right?
00:15:17
Speaker
But it feels true. And I was going to ask you, like, what happened? have you what why do you think it is so helpful and maybe that's why because it helps people to go into those deeper places there's might be an intensive psychotherapy that they're doing with themselves they might also have a mystical type experience sometimes although not everyone's and what are the kind of things that people reported from the research in back in the day and now that you think has been really helpful Yeah, you may know Carl Jung.
00:15:47
Speaker
ah His framework is that we each have a personal unconscious, i.e., experiences from birth to the present, but we also have a collective unconscious. Yeah.
00:16:00
Speaker
where How to understand that is a mystery. Is it genetically encoded? Is it in our DNA? Is it spiritually accessed? Whatever the spiritual is, we really don't know. But but when these transcendental experiences open up, yeah ah it seems obvious oh that the
00:16:29
Speaker
that human consciousness is indestructible. a ay It's what religions call immortality. Now, it could be a big delusion, but it sure is convincing when you're there. It just seems like, is water wet? Of course it's wet. Is consciousness indestructible? Of course it's indestructible. you know yeah But but that that knowledge feels more fundamental, more real. like It's not like a typical nocturnal dream.
00:17:05
Speaker
It's like I'm remembering something I forgot. And people call that homecoming often and or awakening spiritually.
00:17:16
Speaker
Oh, my gosh, the eternal world is outside of time, and it's always been there, sure and I'm connected to it, and it's part of me, and it's part of everyone else.
00:17:31
Speaker
yeah And that awareness is so strong. intuitively convincing yeah that people ah
00:17:46
Speaker
claim to have lost their fear of death, for example. Yeah. no That doesn't mean they want to speed up the death. Yes. You know what? no I haven't seen anyone get suicidal. Yeah. yeah But but but ah they will treasure each moment they're given. Yeah.
00:18:05
Speaker
Yeah. I like very much the ah Zen Buddhist framework, that the eternal world is not only before birth and after death, but it's in the middle of the present moment, a portal that you can go through while your heart is beating and your lungs are breathing if you can just wake up.
00:18:36
Speaker
It's a very nice framework. yeah Yeah. That's so beautiful, isn't it that and yeah and that it? That kind of being able to be really in the present a moment in that moment is also about living till you die, right? Like a being in the now and engaging with life and the things that people have spoken about after these journeys. and and that, okay, maybe they need to resolve that conflict they have with that family member, and how do they do that? and then maybe they want to go to Europe like you're saying. I mean, it doesn't transform people into virtual saints. In fact, that that first ah in the report of that first volunteer at Spring Grove, she wrote, you know i am still me. I get irritated occasionally and yell.
00:19:29
Speaker
Yes. but i mo But I'm more at peace. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really like, do you know, I'm sure you probably do, the the book Staring at the Sun Irving Yalom.
00:19:45
Speaker
um hate to lot yeah yall yeah yeah Yeah. He talks about um this idea of like, yeah you saw about the people's fear of death, right? And this kind of death anxiety that that a lot of us live with and how that can be underneath certain types of psychological issues, but also he talks a lot about that when you actually work with people around their fear of death. And this isn't necessarily terminally ill people. It could be, you know, a client who who comes and underneath their anxiety in general is this kind of fear of death.
00:20:17
Speaker
That often what it's about is a life not fully lived. And then actually to to resolve that for them, you can kind of think about, okay, so what would you do in your life that would be different, um that that would make you feel less afraid to die, right? Maybe it is to have that conversation with that relative you didn't speak to for 10 years or or to make it or or to go and to go and overseas or to change your career, you know, or whatever it might be.
00:20:44
Speaker
Yeah, that's one of the saddest things in working with terminally ill people where they say, ah Now it feels too late. you know Should I have changed my career? Should I have gone back to school? Should I have developed my interest in music or art?
00:21:04
Speaker
ah Should I have ah given up on that hopeless marriage? Whatever it
Family Dynamics in Palliative Psychedelic Therapy
00:21:12
Speaker
is. And all of a sudden, it's almost too late. you know Yeah. So there's regret. there' There's a grieving that's part of preparing for death.
00:21:23
Speaker
I have to accept this lifetime as it is. yeah I've done what I could. Maybe I can still do a few things yeah at the end, but basically it is what it is.
00:21:35
Speaker
yeah i had children or I didn't have children. I yeah went to college or I didn't go to college. You know, I... ah had a beautiful garden or I never planted anything. yeah Yeah. So there's a kind of owning of this unique lifetime.
00:21:57
Speaker
Yeah, like accepting. And respecting it. yeah very one life has it One lifetime at a time, okay? Yes. Let's finish this one well. yeah Yeah, let's finish this one well. It seems like that's one of the things that comes up for people. And and I think it's important, like like you say, like people are still themselves. They still might get grumpy. It's not to say it's going to be this kind of miracle of of any kind, exactly, but it can still be really beautiful.
00:22:27
Speaker
And maybe we started to get into this, my next kind of question, you know, my my background, my first job actually was as a grief counselor. So ah actually before I finished my doctorate clinical psychology where we do all our placements and rotations, I worked in a childhood bereavement charity, so with kids where parents died.
00:22:49
Speaker
or brother or sister actually. And then I went on to work there in various forms for years and different contexts, different ways. um And it taught me so much and about life and kind of death and how I wanted to live. And and I'm curious for you, it might like has what has working with the dying taught you about life and death and being in this world?
00:23:20
Speaker
Big question. Good question. um
00:23:26
Speaker
A person is a person is a person, whether they're terminally ill or not. ah And it's a privilege to get to know shis people, especially people different from yourself.
00:23:41
Speaker
Yeah. with different life histories, different cultures, ah different childhood traumas, whatever, i always feel that every therapeutic dyad of therapist and patient is unique.
00:24:00
Speaker
yeah And you kind of treasure that opportunity and tune into one another. you you can't just apply a manual that yeah you impose on everyone.
00:24:14
Speaker
um ah And ah what unfolds is can be incredibly um meaningful.
00:24:25
Speaker
Sometimes it's spiritual, sometimes it's not. yeah ah But just to see in a particular family old a resentments heal, communication open up.
00:24:40
Speaker
Yes.
00:24:42
Speaker
You know, there's so much depression, I think, and anxiety that is nurtured by unresolved grief.
00:24:54
Speaker
You know, words of forgiveness that were never spoken, ah dying with old resentments. yeah height You can almost feel the tense muscles. and so um It doesn't have to be that way, you know? And oh it's not only how this treatment can help the dying patient, but it helps the whole family.
00:25:22
Speaker
yeah And the the patient becomes, in a sense, a teacher of the family. so Because each of them has to die someday, too. So it's a bit like, watch me and I'll show you how to do it well.
00:25:39
Speaker
it And and yeah there's no reason we can't have some music and laughter and even nibble on whatever food we like on my last day of life.
00:25:50
Speaker
you know so so affairs There be a lightness, a playfulness. And then finally, well, so long, guys. It looks like you know my body wants to go into a kind of a deep trance. It's time period.
00:26:08
Speaker
You know, take care, you know, and I'm over here. but but but but But without anxiety. yeah Yeah. And with closeness.
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah. it's ah Each family decides what's meaningful for them, you know? a Yeah. Whether you want to die in silence or...
00:26:34
Speaker
with music or alone or surrounded by family. I'm often struck at how many people in the hospital die when the um family member finally leaves for a minute to go down to the cafeteria. It's like, finally alone. Yeah. It's so true. You know, my grandfather did that, Bill. Like he was just sick. We went in, we were called in. My grandfather was like a second dad to me. We were super, super close. And so I was very grateful that I was still in England when he got sick and I was still this living there so I could grow.
00:27:15
Speaker
we we got called in four times to our taught the whole family, the, you know, my myself, my my dad and all the uncles. We all went in every time and we waited. And sometimes we waited in the middle of the night for hours.
00:27:27
Speaker
and And he decided to go when we weren't there because he obviously wanted to go by himself. Yeah. Which is fine. you know it' It's a very special personal experience when it comes time to die and what you want to share and what you don't want to share is your own business. This is kind of between me and God if you want to see it that way. Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:56
Speaker
Totally. Yeah. so yeah and i think um I was going to ask actually, maybe take it to, so now you're working, you've got actually, you've got a group of patients that you're seeing after this, haven't you, cancer patients?
00:28:11
Speaker
I'm curious. So what tell us like what you're doing at the moment and what this service looks like at the moment, or the research that's going on looks like. So do you work with families as well as the person? Actually don't. and It'd be interesting for the listeners to hear that. Well, right now ah we're still in the research phase. Yeah. We're not quite as advanced as Australia almost is. Well, yes. We're getting there. We're getting there.
00:28:41
Speaker
ah at the Aquilino Cancer Center in Sunstone Therapies, where I'm a senior advisor right now, they call me.
00:28:52
Speaker
um ah We have two projects going or about to start with cancer patients. And um actually three. how There's one with MDMA that includes a close family member. ah They have two sessions, ah one in separate rooms and one together in the same room. Oh, wow. So they both take the medicine? Yeah. Yeah. yeah So the family member gets to receive the drug too, you know, which is ah very promising and can be very meaningful.
00:29:33
Speaker
Yeah. ah The others are... ah oh
00:29:41
Speaker
Typically ah with psilocybin, ah you have a deep experience and we help you integrate it as meaningfully as possible, whatever happens. yeah um But my vision many of us share is that the day is not far off where psychedelic therapy will be integrated into the mental health offerings in palliative care.
00:30:21
Speaker
And many ways oncology centers will offer psychedelic therapy. you know Always, you know never required certainly, but an option. And it can be a very meaningful option yeah and can help with the psychological and the physical distress of ah coping with cancer.
00:30:47
Speaker
And of course, not only cancer, but other ah life-threatening conditions. Yeah, that's really interesting. I didn't know that the MDMAs tried research with, because I can imagine that close family member, you know, there's so much that they're processing too, in terms of the person who has the illness, has cancer and to give them that space to come together and to take some medicines of NDMA and to have that deeper, perhaps have some of those hard conversations that can feel so difficult. You know, one oh if I can make mention of my book, Sacred Knowledge, yeah in that book, ah there's a description of a patient who comes to mind who was ah
00:31:39
Speaker
ah and just being kind of overprotected by the family.
Case Studies and Personal Reflections
00:31:45
Speaker
a ah you know ah didn' They didn't think she could handle her diagnosis, so they didn't want to tell it to her.
00:31:53
Speaker
And they were colluding against her. And she was depressed. And ah finally, she broke through the denial. And her husband confessed that, yeah, you do have cancer.
00:32:09
Speaker
ah And then she sent her two my young children in early teens off to summer camp, hoping to be dead before they returned.
00:32:21
Speaker
or And then she experienced a psychedelic therapy session, in her case with LSD.
00:32:33
Speaker
yes And at the end of her session, which was not... wow dramatically spiritual. It was kind of living years and years of loneliness and crying profusely.
00:32:51
Speaker
But it wiped out her depression. yeah And at the end of the day, when the family came in and gathered around her a bedside,
00:33:04
Speaker
ah I remember her mother-in-law, who she had a very tense formal relationship with, bent over to give her a kiss. And the patient reached out and grabbed her wig and yanked it off. And then sat up in bed regally and say, now let's get something straight.
00:33:29
Speaker
It is true that I have cancer and I am going to die, but I am not dead yet. chips and I mean, if we had filmed it, it would be ah the highest quality. It was just so as everyone had a good cry. But but it broke through all this tippy-toeing denial in the family system.
00:34:02
Speaker
She called her kids home from summer camp and prepared each of them individually for her death. you know, and so on. And she lived fully that last chapter of life, you know? yeah Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, that's such a beautiful example of, ah if you can get there, that, you know, there's lots actually that i want to say about that. And ah one of things is that, you my experience, like depression, like you were saying before, there's often unresolved grief in there, but also unresolved pain. emotion that gets gets stuck, right? Depressed is what I would say to clients is depression, it's feelings pushed down ah sometimes and they can be stuck.
00:34:47
Speaker
And so psilocybin or other psychedelics I think can really help people can't to kind of move through some of that, that process it, you know. That's right. And and if tap into unresolved grief from a death 20, 30, 40 years ago,
00:35:04
Speaker
that's not a bad trip Yeah. That's expansive psychotherapy, you know? Yes. Yeah. And often when you have to confront your own death, you have to also deal again with the deaths of people you have loved in the past.
00:35:24
Speaker
ah yeah um Yeah, of course. and and And so do the people around you too, because bereavement of one person brings up bereavement of others, doesn't it? you know That's right. I was just thinking as you're talking about like some of the things that we used to do, i worked to the charity I worked at was called it's still called Winston's Wish. There's one in Australia called Wombat's Wish. um But one of the things that we would do, we had the kind of arm of the organization that worked after someone one had died. And then when I first started working there, we would work with parents when they were dying. So usually of like cancer or
00:36:00
Speaker
something like that. And this kind of really poignant, beautiful work of kind of what with one client where we wrote letters to her children 15, at 18, at 21, because they were young when she was when she was dying and so she was able to to do that and to kind of keep those, they were able to keep those letters.
00:36:25
Speaker
But if she if she hadn't been able to face the fact that she was dying, which is so hard to do, i imagine if you have children, I mean, I can't even imagine how hard that would be, but she was able to do that with the therapeutic support that we had given her and other people, not just me, and and to write to them and until they had those letters then as they grew.
00:36:44
Speaker
very much so. She had. yeah Yeah, there's the example in my book of the death of my own ah first wife. Yes. After a beautiful 20-year marriage. um But it's interesting. She was a psychiatric nurse who worked with me giving psychedelics to cancer patients.
00:37:12
Speaker
yeah that's Yeah. So I remember when we got the diagnosis that she had breast cancer, or we kind of looked at one another and said, gee, yeah if anyone can handle this, we ought to be able to. But it really brought it home. Yeah. yeah um And she lived for a full decade ah after diagnosis very, very fully.
00:37:40
Speaker
ah But eventually, ah the time came that the cancer was advancing. you could feel the metastases and in her shoulders. um ah There was no denying that ah death was getting close.
00:37:58
Speaker
And we have two sons. They were 11 and 13 the time. ah eleven And thirteen at the time and so we had to ah prepare our sons for her death.
00:38:14
Speaker
you know yeah And we did the best we could. ah i think we did a pretty decent job, actually. I'm sure. oh I remember the night before she died, ah she spent time ah with each of the sons a kind of telling them everything you need to hear from your mother, you know? and one of them said, gee, she he tape-recorded his conversation with her.
00:38:49
Speaker
Oh, beautiful. And ah it includes, gee, mommy, I wish you didn't have to die. And she retorts, yeah, I wish I didn't have to either.
00:39:03
Speaker
But we have to accept life as it is. You know? Yeah. And yeah frankly, that 11-year-old boy is now a 50-year-old psychologist with expertise in the treatment of cancer patients.
00:39:26
Speaker
yeah Yeah, so what a beautiful gift that she was able to give by being able to have that conversation that's had so many ramifications. That's right, he works with you.
00:39:38
Speaker
So that he was terrible trauma of childhood in the big picture was almost part of his training, education, for the contributions he's making in adulthood. Yeah.
00:39:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I find that close to inspiring. Yeah. yeah It's very inspiring to me. Yeah. And so so, beautiful. And also would have been so, that's like the beauty and the pain of grief, right? Like grief shows us yeah how much we love, right? And that's, it's like they're two sides, it's the same thing. So, you know, and that is so...
00:40:19
Speaker
I mean, you were in this position where you were doing this work and then it happened to you and it sounds... Yeah. You know, grief grief isn't fun. No. No. But it's really part of a healing process, I'm convinced.
00:40:38
Speaker
Yeah. No matter how spiritual your concept of death may be, When you lose someone important, your body still needs to grieve.
00:40:51
Speaker
You need to cry. you need to experience muscular contractions, you know? Yeah. It's just the way we're built. yeah's It's so physical, isn't it? The feeling of extreme grief. with so you know and I was just listening to that story and thinking,
00:41:12
Speaker
such a beautiful gift that your your wife gave her sons. and And then also, yeah like could thinking about even even with all those beautiful conversations and and the knowing and the work you've done, I'm sure it was still really, really intense when she did pass away. And was thinking about, you know, my grandfather, the experience I shared before and you know, when he did finally die, which I was absolutely expecting, he'd been in hospital for about for four weeks at least, I can't quite remember now, but I lost, like my legs just went from completely went from under me when I got the news and I was kind of, you know, actually I was working as a psychologist, so I was in a great location for it to happen. There was there was all these therapists around me and, you know, they were amazing. My colleagues were just amazing. um
00:42:01
Speaker
But yeah, there's no getting away from the intensity of that. And that Ian and Sherwood that we talk about in psychedelics that you talk about is so important just for grief in general, isn't it? You gotta go into the pain, into the extreme physical discomfort Yeah. if i hope this isn't getting too personal. please. The night she died, stopped breathing around 2 in the morning or so. you know
00:42:32
Speaker
And I was beside her and with her. And um we had ah a dog, a Hungarian Vyssa that we loved.
00:42:43
Speaker
And her the arm of her body was stretched out over the edge of the bed. And the dog kept rubbing his back against her arm. Which is kind of interesting. But then around six in the morning, it was clear, ah the sun was rising and and the dog had to go out. and So I crawled out of bed and took the dog out into the backyard. And I live in this on the edge of this wilderness park, very beautiful, with a river. and
00:43:23
Speaker
but But I remember thinking, like, if I had come out and there was no breeze and the river had stopped flowing,
00:43:37
Speaker
and the birds weren't singing, and i wouldn't have been surprised. look But, The river was flowing.
00:43:48
Speaker
The birds were singing. The sun was rising. You know? yeah Yeah. Life was going on for me. Yeah.
00:43:59
Speaker
So I had to go in and call relatives and finally wake up my two sons and tell them that mother had died, you know?
00:44:11
Speaker
oh Thank you for sharing that, Bill. Yeah. Yeah. probably the hardest thing I've ever done in life, you know? Yeah, yeah. But but there's the sense that in and through the grief, life moves ahead.
00:44:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It's, yeah. And, you know, it's always surprising to me that the sun keeps rising after moments like that. they often do. What? you keeps My life has just completely changed and and this did the sun keeps coming up. What?
00:44:45
Speaker
yeah Actually, the sun isn't rising, the earth is turning. Well, yes. Let's get that right. We're still kind of outdated in our language. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah Yeah. And, you know, I think it's it yeah it's amazing, isn't it, how that can happen, how nature just keeps on going. Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:11
Speaker
That way, even even after all of this. And, you know, do you feel like, I guess when you're, I remember in our last conversation, actually, it was a while ago now, but you were saying that if you were thinking about who should do this work, who should be a psychedelic therapist, you know, ideally people who've been through some stuff in that life. That's right. Yeah. is Because it helps us, I think.
00:45:36
Speaker
yeah Remember the story of the Buddha, you know the prince in the palace who's pampered, and it's when he goes out into the world and he bumps into sickness and death and injustice and all that, he then he sits under the bow tree and he gets enlightened.
Therapeutic Wisdom and Spirituality
00:45:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I you know exactly, and I think Grief is such a human experience. It's something that's going to come to us all. And I'm sure you and your family, of course, would have preferred, like she said, I don't i i don't remember the exact word your wife said that you said, but I wish I wasn't dying either, but that's life. That's what's happening. And so moving, Bill, to share that story with us. But boy thank you so much for that hard, hard conversation and
00:46:29
Speaker
You know, i I wasn't sure if i was gonna say anything about this, but I will, that I am sitting with some some grief around some news that I've had just very recently about a friend of mine who's very sick with cancer and has family and oof it's it's it's so painful. Like it's like this, it's a physical pain, isn't it?
00:46:51
Speaker
And it it never ceases to surprise me how physical that can feel. Like my legs going from under me when my grandfather died, like right now my heart feels really tight. And yeah, I saw the emotion is still there for you many, many years later, of course, when you speak about that moment. right As we say in so in psychedelic therapy all the time, whatever you discover yourself experiencing, the goal is to move in and through, in and through, not to run away from anything or censor anything.
00:47:29
Speaker
Yeah. Dive in. It's part of a healing process. Yeah, that's right. Go towards the thing. And I remember when, them you know, the self-experience that I had, like very fortunate to have as part of the training at Monash, one of the things that happened to me was, I guess what they call like in, Sandgrove calls the co-ex system where you move through.
00:47:53
Speaker
And i could I was moving through different parts of my life and and there were some parts that I wanted to go towards and there were some beautiful moments and there were some hard moments and There was some grief, moments of grief in there, but it was like I was just reviewing it all and kind of moving through. And then there were some that needed a bit more resolution that I kind of dove in to explore. And that was quite, quite amazing. And i you know when I went in there, I felt it in my body. I kind of experienced it somatically and um the feelings, the different emotions, and then kind of went back to just floating and through, which is interesting too.
00:48:30
Speaker
Yeah, I've come, in doing psychedelic therapy in general, I've come to have a profound respect for the ingenuity, the wisdom, the the creativity of the patient's mind yeah as to how it goes about choreographing the healing process.
00:48:53
Speaker
yeah know yeah And often it it turns out to be much better designed than anything we could planned. Yes, yes, so true. The patient may think he or she is all confused and screwed up, but there's a wisdom within that person.
00:49:11
Speaker
Yeah. And if you respect it, it manifests itself. Yeah. Yeah. So often i you know, in the early days I would be doing the preparation psychotherapy with people and I think, oh, you know, that thing you shared is probably going to come up. You know, i didn't say it to them, but I was like, I had ideas about yeah naively what I thought might happen. And every time I was surprised, you know, never what I thought. And every time is so different too. them Yeah. Which is really amazing. And I think what,
00:49:45
Speaker
is That's one of the things that makes this work so fascinating to me. And so, you know, that the thing that you were speaking about, about each dyad and each, like, you know, therapy pair, you and the client teaches you so much about humans.
00:49:58
Speaker
Also, working with the medicine teaches me so teaches you so much, doesn't it, about the way, the wisdom, the inner wisdom that someone has. which they can so often lose touch with when they're distressed. in or own we've we we're In somatic therapy, we talk about that, like you you know your body and your your mind, your soul kind of knows the way to get to healing, but there's lots of stuff that can get in the way of that. And so one of the things I feel like psychedelics helps people sometimes is to get to that place, to go back to that inner healer or that kind of space of healing.
00:50:30
Speaker
What do you, maybe we've touched on some of this, but how do you feel they were coming that this work has changed you and your attitudes to life?
00:50:44
Speaker
I can't put my finger on any one, you know, experience X caused change y ah kind of thing. Yeah. um Certainly a steady ah confirmation, affirmation of and deepening, perhaps, of the attitudes I've had.
00:51:07
Speaker
um Some which go back to my good old Methodist early childhood, you know, but the worth of every human being, the reality of something greater than ourselves that most of us would call God or the ground of being. or the i was like Edmund Sinnott, biologist at Yale, who spoke of the purpose of properties of protoplasm.
00:51:39
Speaker
Choose your word. But there is, as says, we really are spiritual beings who are having human experiences right now.
00:51:54
Speaker
okay And it's not a matter of belief. It's just a matter of waking up and acknowledging it. you know yeah We are spiritual beings, whether we like it or not.
00:52:08
Speaker
me And we don't even know what the spiritual is yet. We don't know what consciousness is. We know there's a few correlations in brain activity.
00:52:20
Speaker
yeah But that doesn't begin to explain ah nobility and creativity and love and all the wonderful things that make us human at the best.
00:52:35
Speaker
yeah Yes. Yes. So there's ah yeah there's a humility and ah openness to mystery that comes out of doing this work.
00:52:48
Speaker
yeah I agree. Yeah. Humility is so important, isn't it? And just holding that. I actually wasn't a spiritual person until I worked in bereavement.
00:53:02
Speaker
It was that work. So early in my life, you know I was young actually then, like I kind of went through a bit quite quite the pathway quite young. And so think was probably, let me get this right, 25 or 20 something, twenty early 20s, early to mid 20s when I finished um my training, especially I did that with that placement and you know working with families where someone had died or was dying. And it was that work that led me to become more of a spiritual person because you can't talk. I was having conversations with so many people about
00:53:39
Speaker
either the end of their life or or the families, and you know, after someone has died, often suddenly, sometimes not about what happened and those little moments of, oh, I really felt that person was with me even though they had just passed away or, you know, a family story and in my in my first family personally is that my grandfather died and all the clocks in the house stopped at the exact time and, and you know, that he passed away.
00:54:06
Speaker
And there was this one clock that he'd been given as a present and it stopped. And then it really started when everyone in the family had arrived to um come for the funeral.
00:54:18
Speaker
I was very little then, but it's been a story that's told so much. I can't explain that. And so many families have those stories, you know, that when that person died, this thing happened or they came to me in a dream or, and so ah that was the thing that I thought then opened me up to, okay, there maybe there is something else and in the world or there is this kind of more spiritual perspective and, you know, led me through to yoga, meditation and all the things that I do now that are really important to me. i You know, I like to,
00:54:52
Speaker
stress that there are probably many flavors of immortality. you know that you know ah what we all Well, what happens after death? so Even that question ah presupposes time, continuing in time. And the eternal world seems to be outside of time. So we it's beyond our linguistic capacities almost to try to think about it or talk about it.
00:55:26
Speaker
yeah But but you know my knowledge of different states of consciousness from psychedelic work and meditation and whatever and study of comparative religions, and there are many, many varieties of alternative states of awareness.
00:55:48
Speaker
Very. and ah like we often ah ah Many people in Eastern religions take reincarnation for granted as much as we assume there isn't any such thing. you know ah And my playful thought is that there are infinite varieties of experiences after death. And it doesn't have to be one size fits all.
00:56:21
Speaker
yeah But yeah whatever
00:56:27
Speaker
each of us will experience will be appropriate and meaningful and part of a bigger picture somehow. Yeah. But the core insight is that death is nothing to fear.
00:56:44
Speaker
you know Yeah. Yeah. And we still have, at least in the United States, ah quite a taboo about death.
00:56:56
Speaker
You know, we don't talk about it. There are funeral homes that still have a red light on the corpse and men people stand at the corpse and say how good he looks.
00:57:09
Speaker
he it It's almost ridiculous, you know? you know ah But we just, like maybe a few decades ago, we didn't know how to deal with sex.
00:57:22
Speaker
And now sex is more open and responsible and even beautiful and respected. And I think the same thing could happen with death, that the baseline attitudes towards death could really shift in Western cultures.
00:57:41
Speaker
okay I really observe. We'd be a healthier civilization if we could. Yeah, absolutely. I really hope so too. I think, I mean, it's definitely not just America. is It's all over the Western world that we have this kind of aversion to death, even though we are all going to die, every single one of us.
Future Integration of Psychedelics
00:58:04
Speaker
yeah yeah and And it's going to happen. and And it's a part of being a human and part of being alive as well.
00:58:11
Speaker
happens Thank you so much, Bill. Some would say being alive with a body or being alive without a body, you know? Yeah. But yeah maybe consciousness really is indestructible stuff, whatever that is Yeah. yeah and And I think that idea of like holding the mystery is so such a gift of psychedelics, but also so important in this kind of work. Like, I don't know what happens. No one knows what happens when we die, right? But like holding that. And sometimes people will ask me, kids have asked me that question a lot, you know, working in bereavement space because they have, so you know, less filter. they They're not shy to ask about that kind of thing in the way that an adult might might be.
00:58:55
Speaker
And I, you know, obviously was never able to give them the answer because there isn't one, but just holding that mystery is really important. And I hope, I really do hope that in the West we can have ah start to develop better, healthier attitudes towards death and dying because I think that will benefit all of us in the way that we are alive in the world too.
00:59:16
Speaker
yes yeah very definitely. You know, birth is a mystery too, you know? It's wild, right? like I mean, i i I don't have children, but and i've been close to I've been close to people when they have, my like my brother was born when I was 17 and I remember holding him just after he was born and it's complete hocus pocus. Like how does that even happen? good Like that you he was in there and now he's in here, but we're so much more used to that.
00:59:45
Speaker
Right? Yeah. here So final question for you, Bill, before we wrap up, we'll begin to wrap up is what are your hopes for the future of psychedelic assisted therapy in the palliative care space? It sounds like you're doing, got some great yeah research happening.
01:00:05
Speaker
What do you do we hope to see developing? Is there any areas you think should be more explored research wise what kind of service structures would you hope for? in the future I would see it becoming accepted, integrated it into the culture.
01:00:24
Speaker
yeah The use of psychedelics themselves wisely, responsibly, we know how to do that now. you know yeah ah um There's medical applications of psychedelics. There are educational applications. There are religious applications. you know sure But if we...
01:00:53
Speaker
use them wisely, which I think we're smart enough to do this time. Footnote here is they've been around for what the archaeological record takes them back 9,000 years anyway to mushroom stones and primitive societies.
01:01:12
Speaker
so um ah This is nothing new, and they have emerged and been repressed in society after society after society. In ancient Greece, they stayed above ground for a few hundred years. you know Sure. but you know the potential benefits in mental health, in world peace, in whatever of them being meaningfully integrated into the culture ah could be immense.
01:01:47
Speaker
yeah a real evolution of consciousness. he asked Yeah. Yeah. Why not? Why not? We need it. There is so much unnecessary suffering out there.
01:02:01
Speaker
Not only people confronting death, but people caught in addictions, in depression, ah limited by post-traumatic stress symptoms, et cetera.
01:02:16
Speaker
It doesn't have to be that way. Yeah. And um so we need an army of psychedelic therapists. Where are they going to come from? buts just And i think some of them are going to come ah from the world of chaplaincy and pastoral counseling, especially in terms of the end-of-life applications.
01:02:39
Speaker
Yes, that would make so much sense, wouldn't it? Because they're already doing those that beautiful work at the end of people's lives. That's right, they're not afraid to go into a hospital or hold the hand of someone who's dying.
01:02:52
Speaker
yeah he has Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that could be really important, I think. Yeah, i i was i mean i understand why they've rescheduled in the way they have here in Australia, but i'm you know they obviously with psilocybin-assisted therapy is is for yeah know depression and treatment-resistant depression as well. And I guess that allows some use in in positive care space in some ways, but it would be, i would love to see it much more i'm ah you a part of that service structure that you don't need them, but the mental health diagnosis to be so precise that they could just use it.
01:03:32
Speaker
That would be really great. We advance one step at a time. Yes. i do Totally. The psychedelics are not only for treating pathology, valuable as that is, but it's for awakening us to asked what Abe Maslow called self-actualization, realization, having peak experiences as a normal part of being alive. Yeah. As people like...
01:04:05
Speaker
you know people like Maslow himself and Eleanor Roosevelt and Albert Einstein did without psychedelics. It's just part of the human repertoire.
01:04:17
Speaker
Yeah. let's Let's value it and explore it and learn from it. yeah Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, like in the indigenous use of, you know, with the ayahuasca, for example, you know, we use it in the West people, it's been kind of drawn into, has ah used and in a very kind of to heal and and from mental health issues or distress or trauma, but it's so much more widely used in indigenous cultures, isn't it?
01:04:46
Speaker
That's right. For all sorts of things. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to talk more about um the educational, what you think the educational implications are. Maybe that's a whole other podcast, but what what would you when you were thinking that, what do you think that is? Like, how would they be used in education?
01:05:05
Speaker
Well, that is our answer
01:05:10
Speaker
just to explore the mystery that we are, yeah thank yeah ah What is consciousness? What are all these different strata of consciousness ah that seem to be within each of us?
01:05:25
Speaker
and We may go through life without suspecting that they're there, but all of a sudden, there they are. you know And some of these profound spiritual experiences happen in really good atheists he Yes. It ruins our whole day sometimes. I say that facetiously. but But it's part of being human to experience these transcendental and archetypal visionary states of consciousness. This is advanced mental health. This isn't mental illness.
01:06:02
Speaker
This isn't getting psychotic. This is becoming creative. It's a weakening. And some of our most creative people, ah like ah Steve Jobs and ah geneticist Francis Crick and so on, attributed their insights to their psychedelic experiences.
01:06:24
Speaker
look Yes, I did know. I was going to say that. That's right, isn't it? I knew that about Steve Jobs. Yeah. I mean, there's lots of people who have taken psychedelics who haven't become Steve Jobs. Yes, of course. So it's not guaranteed, but it can be very facilitative of creativity.
01:06:49
Speaker
And then the values in these mystical states are are really the essence of each of the great world religions.
01:07:00
Speaker
The reality of love, the ah beauty of the of life, the ah value of every human being.
01:07:13
Speaker
the interconnectedness of us all in the great unity that our Hindu friends called the bejeweled net of Indra.
Education and Cultural Acceptance
01:07:22
Speaker
yeah sure That if you think you're alone and isolated, you're deluded, you forgot.
01:07:30
Speaker
sure And if you wake up, begin to wake up spiritually, you will know belong, you are accepted, you are loved.
01:07:41
Speaker
yeah you have worth. you know Powerful stuff. Very powerful stuff, very powerful. And and yeah that interconnectedness piece, I think is also something that can be so potent for people who are going through grief too. yeah You're not alone in your grief, but also even when someone, I talk about this a lot, like when someone dies, they their body might not be here, but whatever your spiritual kind of belief set is, even if you're very rational,
01:08:12
Speaker
they still living inside of you in the things they taught you and the experiences that you have with them. in And if they're related to you and you in your biology and your DNA, right? you know that There's so many ways that people stay in the world. um you know I still play the same games that my grandfather played with me with kids in my life. And so he's still with me in those moments. you know Yeah, you had a wonderful grandfather, I think.
01:08:39
Speaker
Yes, I was very, very lucky. Yeah, I had some ah yeah very beautiful moments with him in my life. dish Well, is there anything that we haven't talked about, Bill, that I feel like we've covered so ah some really great... Oh, we could go on for hours, but I think we've covered a lot of ground.
01:09:00
Speaker
Yeah. There's lot of people... as a whole, need to really become educated about other states of consciousness and the potential of psychedelics as a valuable tool in gaining access to them.
01:09:26
Speaker
And how to use the psychedelics responsibly and safely thanks In my book, I use this metaphor of ah if you just jump on a pair of skis without any instruction and start downhill, that's a pretty stupid thing to do. Yes, and yes. And it's just as stupid to throw a psychedelic into your mouth to see what might happen.
01:09:50
Speaker
Yeah. Like you need to prepare and read and be oriented and be in a trust-filled relationship. and have some intentions and be able to choose to relinquish control.
01:10:08
Speaker
you know? Yeah, that's the key, right? It's hard to see people sometimes. I think it's so yeah it's so important and part of the reason for me during this podcast is because I feel in Australia there's still a lot of misunderstandings even though we're in the space of using it. And so all of what you just said is so important and I will put your book in the show notes as well because I really highly recommend that to anyone who's interested in this space and not just as a therapist, a lot of people listening at therapists, there's so many wider... implications for your book and so much more, you know, talking about education and religion. And yeah it's really quite a wonderful offering.
01:10:46
Speaker
Yeah. it's ah yeah You know, in the university world, it's not only the School of Medicine, but ah the School of Theology and maybe even the School of Physics and so Literature and so on that could learn a lot from the wise use of psychedelics.
01:11:10
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, a lot of literature, there's plenty of books have been written after people have had psychedelic experiences and they talk about them and they kind of, you know, or either they're autobiographical or novels, right? They're kind of inspired by some really incredible writing.
01:11:28
Speaker
You may know ah ah the last line of Dante's Divine Comedy, ah it is love that moves the sun and other stars.
01:11:38
Speaker
Sure. That's a core psychedelic insight, you know? Yeah. And I feel I should reread the Divine Comedy and look at it as a collection of trip reports. five fat Yeah. would be an interesting way to read it, right? now Different circles of hell, you know? Yeah. or know Who knows? Did Dante, was he a natural mystic? Did he ah eat moldy bread that had air got in it? Did he munch on mushrooms? We'll never know.
01:12:15
Speaker
ah But he's... what he is saying is very congruent with what's emerging in the psychedelic world, you know? yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess we, wait wait yeah, it feels like that is, is very true. And,
01:12:34
Speaker
Who knows, you know, i think i think that the world needs that message i am a lot right now, you know, and I guess i'm in other podcasts I've said that I just really started speaking about the implications for psychedelics with in conflict resolution and and some of the like list initial bits of work that have been done in that space. And, you know, it feels like we we need the the message about love right now. There's a lot of pain in the world.
01:13:03
Speaker
That's right. Yeah. Well, I feel like we've we've traversed so many different topics and I really want to thank you for sharing. And I think it's really, you know, it's talking about grief for me would feel wrong without speaking about some of my personal experience because it's so human, you know. and so i But i'm I'm also very grateful that you felt able to share those, Bill. That's a really...
01:13:33
Speaker
was really moving to hear some of that and i'm really I think important for the listeners too as well like this is a podcast which is you know for psychotherapists but also just anyone who's interested in this space and we've all probably been touched by grief at some stage so in and through yes exactly the in and the through so important for all of us I'm going to take that message and probably keep remembering that over the next little while, Bill. Thank you. bills Yeah.
01:14:09
Speaker
Nothing to run away from, no matter how difficult. you know Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and I hope that...
01:14:20
Speaker
that psychedelics, that that that message and that ability for people to go in and through with psychedelics can can also be so help us with with life, with these difficult moments. Yeah, and as you probably know, in the ayahuasca religions, there's this tradition of what do you do if you see the giant anaconda, this vision of this huge snake?
01:14:46
Speaker
Well, obviously, if you run from it, You're going to have a nightmare. It's going to chase you. You're going to get smaller. It's going to get bigger. Why do that?
01:14:57
Speaker
No. If you see the giant anaconda, you dive into his mouth and look out through his eyes. Yeah. yeah you Yeah. You become your kundalini, your shakti, your psychic power.
01:15:14
Speaker
You own that energy within you. What a different attitude. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. i think that's so important.
01:15:26
Speaker
It's such an important message and i i i to remind people of when they're going into psychedelics, but also in life, you know like if there's a big experience of grief happening for years you, you know to go in, to allow yourself space. yeah and to And to own the pain of it.
01:15:47
Speaker
yeah yeah ah Grief really hurts. You know, you don't say, oh, dear, dear, it's not that bad. No, it is bad. It really hurts. Just as if you're in a war zone and they're dropping bombs on you or something, you know?
01:16:02
Speaker
yeah yeah Yeah. It's it's terrifying. But in and through is healing and resolution. Yes. If you try to escape it, run away from it, you yeah You get stuck in depression and anxiety and tense muscles and no one, you're irritable all the time.
01:16:26
Speaker
Yeah. You know, panic attacks are another thing i you know that I've noticed can be like if you're getting underneath that.
01:16:38
Speaker
So often for people, there's a grief. It's not always, but there's very often there's something, ah you know, that's what happens when it gets stuck. Right. And one experience often resonates or echoes with others in life. you know yes It's not just I'm dealing with the grief of Uncle Samuel.
01:16:59
Speaker
You may be dealing with other about six losses before that as well. yeah Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. And so it's good to take the space and if you're listening to this and that's where you're at, and and and for so all of us who've had those experiences, it's important to create time so that you can go in and through.
01:17:21
Speaker
and Yes. Right. Well, wonderful for being with you. yeah So, so great, Bill. Thank you so much for coming on the show again and sharing some of your wisdom and also taking it into some more personal places. I really appreciate that. And i'm yeah, we're going to we'll end there, I think. and And I'll put the link to your book in the show notes so that people can find that. Okay.
01:17:52
Speaker
ah There's an article I just published I might send you to that's very concise about how to safely use psychedelics.
01:18:04
Speaker
yeah That would be great. That would be great. Thank you. I think that's really important. And, you know, there's, I think, you know in the first episode, if people haven't listened to the first episode with Bill, we do get quite into detail around that as well. So I recommend listening to that and or would love to have that new article that we could also post because it's so important. It's like, you can't just, like you said, you can't go skiing down a slope without learning how to do it. And so if people are wanting to do that, it's very important to do it.
01:18:33
Speaker
in ah in a safe way. so we'll we'll And for therapists listening as well, you know there's so there's plenty there's lots of episodes where we speak a lot about how to do this as a therapist, how to be with people.
01:18:44
Speaker
Because we're we're learning as we go in Australia. you know we've been We're lucky enough to be rescheduled, and if the medicines to be rescheduled, are able to do this work. i'm And we're still always learning. like I hope I'm always learning anyway as a therapist, but this space is still new, you know still a very new field.
01:19:05
Speaker
Carl Jass, German existentialist, psychiatrist, philosopher, says over and over in his too many books that we are more than we know or ever can know of ourselves.
01:19:21
Speaker
You know? Yes. And oh this frontier validates that. It says that's literally true. Yeah. You know, if you think you're just a little eagle scampering around the world, ah buying groceries and going to work, ah you're underestimating who you are. Mm-hmm.
01:19:42
Speaker
And... ah In my view, there should be no taboo of exploring the nature of your own mind. you know Yeah.
01:19:53
Speaker
Yeah. Do it wisely. Do it intelligently. But you safe it's ridiculous that it should be considered illegal. Yeah. Yeah.
01:20:04
Speaker
It's a crazy world. Yeah. here is All right. Well, thank you, Bill. Thank you so much. Let's um move towards the the close, and I'll put those things in links in the show notes and um and also Recommend people start, if they had to start from the beginning of the podcast too, I think that could be really helpful in season one.
01:20:26
Speaker
that was All right. Okay, enjoy the day. Yes, thank you so much, Bill. bye everybody. Thanks for listening.
01:20:38
Speaker
If you're interested in following along on the journey with me, check out my Instagram or website details listed in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and share this podcast to help get this important conversation out to more listeners.