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Psychedelic Therapies and Indigenous wisdom: Challenges and opportunities for collaboration
215 Plays2 months ago
Welcome to Beyond the Trip Podcast. In this episode I am joined by IPAT (indigenous psychedelic-assisted therapies). IPAT is dedicated to supporting the accessibility and therapeutic use of plant medicines for Indigenous peoples. Their vision is to create a culturally safe model of psychedelic-assisted therapy (PAT) that honors the Indigenous wisdom which has guided the use of plant medicines for thousands of years.
IPAT’s purpose is to develop a psychedelic-assisted therapy model that incorporates Indigenous ways of knowing, being, and doing, emphasizing the importance of healing within community. By placing cultural safety at the forefront, IPAT aims to ensure this model is not only accessible to Indigenous peoples but also beneficial and accessible for all.
Jem Stone is a First Nations Woman, Educator and Wellness Practitioner with mixed heritage from around the globe who is passionately integrating original knowledge into education and wellness spaces through connection and decolonised learning methods.
Kirt Mallie is a proud Mualgal man, an Indigenous Therapist, Cultural Educator and Spiritual Teacher. Kirt is a co-founder of IPAT. He was one of the therapists on the Psilocybin-Assisted Supportive Therapy in the treatment of prolonged grief trial.
Dr Bianca Sebben is a Clinical Psychologist based in Brisbane, Australia with a special interest in complex trauma, dissociative disorders including Dissociative Identity Disorder, and working with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
In this episode we talk about IPAT’s recently published paper, the importance of inclusion of indigenous voices in this emerging space, cultural safety in psychedelic therapy, challenges with the medical model of distress, and the importance of collaboration, to bring together different perspectives together in this field.
IPAT website: https://ipat.au/
Psychedelic Therapies and cultural responsiveness: A call for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander engagement in Australian clinical trials and practice https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1326020024000761
Closing the Gap: https://www.closingthegap.gov.au/
Power, Threat, Meaning Framework: https://www.bps.org.uk/member-networks/division-clinical-psychology/power-threat-meaning-framework
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Transcript
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Beyond the Trip, a psychedelic therapy podcast with me, Dr. Esme Ta. During this podcast, I'll be bringing you conversations with thought leaders and other inspiring humans, exploring a wide variety of themes relating to the use of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy in the healing of human distress.
00:00:26
Speaker
Whether you're an aspiring therapist, already a therapist, or just simply interested in the emerging field of psychedelic therapy, then this podcast is for you. Join me for a journey into the psychedelic world. Before we get started, I want to take a moment to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the unceded land on which this podcast is recorded. The Wadda Wurrung people. I pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging.
00:00:54
Speaker
and I extend that respect to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.
00:01:04
Speaker
everybody and welcome to this episode of beyond the trip This is actually the last episode of the first season. So I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for joining me on this journey so far. After this episode, episode number 12, I'm going to be taking a little break, recalibrating, resting a little bit, and also thinking about and beginning to record season two.
00:01:29
Speaker
So i in this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by IPAT, the Indigenous Psychedelic Assisted Therapies Group. They're dedicated to supporting the accessibility and therapeutic use of plant medicines for Indigenous peoples. Their vision is to create a culturally safe model of psychedelic assisted therapy that honours Indigenous wisdom, which has guided the use of plant medicines for thousands of years.
00:01:57
Speaker
and they recognise Indigenous peoples as the global knowledge keepers in this practice. IPAT's purpose is to develop a model that incorporates Indigenous ways of knowing, being and doing, and emphasises the importance of healing within community. By placing cultural safety at the forefront, IPAT aims to ensure that this model is not only accessible to Indigenous peoples, but is also beneficial and accessible for all.
00:02:25
Speaker
So I'm joined by three members of IPAT, all of the co-founders. Gem Stone, who is a First Nations woman, educator and wellness practitioner with mixed heritage from around the globe. She's passionate about integrating original knowledge into education and wellness spaces through connection and decolonised learning methods. Kurt Malley is a proud Moragul man, an Indigenous therapist, cultural educator and a spiritual teacher.
00:02:57
Speaker
He's also the co-founder of IPAT, and he was one of the therapists on the psilocybin-assisted therapy trial in the treatment of prolonged grief that took place recently in Queensland, Australia. Bianca is a clinical psychologist based in Brisbane, Australia with a special interest in complex trauma and dissociative disorders, and also in working with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
00:03:23
Speaker
In this episode, we talk about IPAT's recently published paper, the link for which is in our show notes, the importance of inclusion of Indigenous voices in this emerging space from the very beginning, with the importance of cultural safety in psychodilics therapy for Indigenous people, and the challenges with the medical model of distress for Indigenous folk, but also for everyone in the population.
00:03:49
Speaker
something that I've spoken about a number of times on this podcast. And we also talk about and the importance of collaboration and in bringing together different perspectives in this field, which was one of the reasons I wanted to begin to do this podcast in the first place. We're going to be coming from different worlds in many ways, but how can we bring that together to really create a healthy ecosystem in the psychedelic assisted therapy space? So I hope you enjoy this episode. Let's get into it.
00:04:19
Speaker
Welcome everybody. Thank you so much for coming on this evening to talk to me and on Beyond the Trick podcast. It's been a little while in the making and I've heard about your work at iPad for such a long time. So it feels really wonderful to have you all here and to hear about your journey up until this point. I'm really looking forward to kind of diving into how you came to be in this work, how you came to work together and what your hopes are for iPad moving forward.
00:04:50
Speaker
And so maybe we'll start there with some kind of, I'd love to hear how you all got into this work and how you came to be working together and to develop iPad. There's probably a lot to that. So, you know, take it wherever you like, really, it's up to you.
00:05:06
Speaker
Amazing. I might start then. My name's Gem and I'm joining from Oranjari lands. So I'm really grateful to be here in Naam, which is Melbourne, northern suburbs of Melbourne. Initially Bianca reached out to me, which was nearly three years ago now, just as she has been. And she just introduced herself, told me what, that she was quite involved.
00:05:31
Speaker
in the newly emerging field of psychedelic-assisted therapies as it was just legislated within Australia. And and just ask me if I was aware that there was no Indigenous voice in that space and if there if I had any interest in um connecting with her and learning a little bit more. so We had a great conversation and yes, certainly I recognize that it was so important, has especially a field that has quite a huge promise for the mental health treatment and you know holistic wellbeing within Australia. There certainly needed to be Indigenous representation, especially considering that indigenous that plant medicines are grounded in Indigenous knowledge. so
00:06:20
Speaker
as a cultural person, it's so important to be responsive to anything that's happening on cultural lands, especially if it can cause harm too. So we wanted to really make sure that there was somebody talking about cultural inclusivity. And then I actually reached out to Kurt who had worked alongside for probably four or five years previous to that.
00:06:43
Speaker
And we had a yarn about that and he was keen to get on board as well, as at that point we had Scarlett, another First Nations therapist who came and joined us initially, who now she's stepped back from IPAT to really focus on her artwork. But initially that's how it happened. And yeah, so it started.
00:07:05
Speaker
but room And at the time, you know, I was working in an Aboriginal health service and also in private practice and I was having clients ask me what I need to know about the trials that were going on and how they were interested in participating and wanting to be able to access these treatments, but was there going to be provisions around cultural safety? Was there going to be ah Indigenous therapists involved, or would it was it going to be safe for them to participate? So yeah yeah, in real time, just starting to get quite concerned about the fact that
00:07:47
Speaker
You know, we know Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have some of the poorest health outcomes in this country and, you know, astronomical rates of, you know, suicide in communities, yet they may not be able to access this treatment if it's not safe to do so. So, yeah, I started to reach out to GEM and, you know,
00:08:11
Speaker
That was that and here we are. you there Yeah, that's, it's such an important pace to be doing, isn't it? And so Kurt, do you want to share a bit about your, it sounds like Gem got in touch with you and tell us a bit about that.
00:08:25
Speaker
When Gem reached out, I was, I'm always excited to collaborate with anything that Gem does, but this was kind of right up my alley and yeah, just very intrigued to, to see what was actually happening within the clinical settings. And from that point where, you know, obviously we're able to get at our foot into the space, which, you know, is a whole story, nothing, you know, altogether. So.
00:08:54
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. and you know i was really i I was reading the paper that you recently had published and one of the things that really struck me, and there was lots of things, but that this is you know we're really at the beginning of this emerging field in in Australia. and We've done this kind of strange leapfrog from it felt like the research was really just beginning and then then now we're we're using clinical practice, but we're still at at the beginning. And this is a real opportunity to try and develop something different that involves collaboration between Indigenous knowledge and western the Western paradigm. And that that was really striking to me because I think there's some real power in that frayed and those thoughts.
00:09:35
Speaker
Yeah, We know that every area of the healthcare system needs decolonizing and needs more cultural responsiveness. But I think the reason that we thought it was so important for us to have a presence here in this space, because it is such a newly emerging field. So if if there's Indigenous presence and perspectives and inclusion from the get-go,
00:09:59
Speaker
especially as guidelines and legislation is happening, then it's just another area um of medicine or this area of science that doesn't need you know to to have that as an afterthought. So it was really important that we would from the very beginning.
00:10:16
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think that that I really agree. and and you know and it's a recently The paper that you've recently published has been... Do you want to share a little bit about that and how that came to be? Because there's some really interesting ideas and I'll definitely put the link to that in the show notes for people to read if they haven't come across it. It feels like it was something that'd be really important to speak about.
00:10:37
Speaker
Do you want to speak to that again? Yeah, sure. So, this came about, you know, Kurt and I worked on a clinical trial together, psilocybin trial in Brisbane and chief investigator said, why don't you write a paper about and everything you're doing, you know, if in iPad and you know, one of the reasons she advocated for more funding to be able to employ an Indigenous therapist in our trial as well. And so it's really a bit of a call to action to have that Indigenous involvement from the get-go and looking at
00:11:18
Speaker
you know, what we've seen and worldwide in the psychedelic space, that this is not just an Australian concern, that there's concerns globally about the cultural appropriation, the endangerment and exploitation and extractive use of these medicines and guess uninitiated clinician entering into these transpersonal spaces without knowing how to navigate this territory and hold that safe and and sacred space because I think there there is a bit of a myth that in the clinical setting that these things
00:12:01
Speaker
don't matter, but they absolutely do and the people that have the knowledge and the wisdom and the skills to navigate these spaces are Indigenous peoples. They've been you know working with plant kin since time immemorial and navigating these transpersonal spaces. And so the paper's really a ah call to action in that regard and how we can merge, you know, the the Western science with Indigenous wisdom to create a model that is rooted in these ways of Indigenous ways of knowing, being and doing that is an an alternative model for all people to benefit from.
00:12:49
Speaker
yeah That's something that I also think is also really important to say. is that the Western medical model has a lot of problems for lots of different people and I think that bringing in indigenous ways of being and thinking and doing is going to be useful kind of for for all people. i in My background, I've spoken about this a few times on this podcast, I won't go into the full story about it now, but it comes from working in training with someone called Lucy Johnston who created an alternative
00:13:20
Speaker
to the medical model for diagnosis called the Power Threat Meaning Framework. I don't know if anyone's heard of that, but she was my teacher. and so I guess i when I was reading your paper, I was like, this is going to be so... I really resonated with a lot of things you were saying about the importance of bringing in indigenous ways of knowing and also We need something different, and we need something different for these medicines. I understand how we've got to where we are in terms of using the Western framework and that we kind of had to start there maybe in, I don't know, but I don't think it's going to be the best way to work with these medicines going forward.
00:13:57
Speaker
I have lots of things to say about that. but but big yeah We talk a lot about the issue of accessibility because in order to access the medicines, you have to have a specific diagnosis under that Western paradigm of treatment resistant depression or treatment resistant PTSD, whereas you know so in And for some Indigenous peoples, those words are, you know, that they're not going to resonate with that or how we diagnose these things is going to be very different in a white middle class society. There's certainly barriers to people even receiving a diagnosis from First Nations communities. They may not already engage with mental health treatment in the way that others would through a Western folk, especially when there are cultural practices available that people consider as preference to use for wellbeing. So I think even to have a diagnosis to fit into what these trials or even treatments are asking of people, you know, there'll be certainly limitations and lack of accessibility for First Nations communities.
00:15:08
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really important thing yeah because the yeah it's that way that people get into trials in the first place is really quite a long, complex process, but that's there's so many additional barriers if the medical dominant medical model doesn't feel like it fits with your culture, but also if potentially stepping into that maybe has felt unsafe in the past as well. Yeah.
00:15:35
Speaker
Yeah, this is the exact reason why I was fired in the first place was to work up in the Institute is because there was ah some mob that went through the screening process and got to a certain point where they actually pulled out because they felt culturally unsafe.
00:15:53
Speaker
and which they had at every reason to because they knew that there was no Indigenous representation, no kind of acknowledgement of the space, that they were doing the kind of work. And a lot of alarm bells started to go off, you know, coming from a cultural perspective, who is holding the space and how are they holding the space is a very important aspect, which no, it's being held to a certain degree, but not holistically or looking at the sacredness of all of doing this work.
00:16:31
Speaker
a ah who And can I ask a bit? ah More on that, Kurt, so what were some of the things that you were able to bring in your role on the trial that did did you that you felt were really important for Indigenous folk coming into that trial, but also for all people?
00:16:50
Speaker
Well, working in this space, it goes beyond psychology. We are we're working, as Bianca mentioned, in the transpersonal realms, so beyond the psyche into the spiritual realms, which there's all types of things that happen in those realms, which You know, it's it's hard for the analytical mind to even comprehend, but this is where these compounds and different plant teachers and medicines take us to a place that goes beyond our own logic. And this is where the magic happens, where the the healing starts to take forward because we go beyond all of the patterns, the programming, all of the things that have created any kind of disorder, dysfunction, disease.
00:17:38
Speaker
So I did go on a bit of a tangent there, but as I do, coming back to how we use these for a very long time in different traditions and this is actually a ceremonial thing that we're doing here and to totally disregard, you know, something as simple as giving thanks and before administering the tablet or actually inducing having ah whatever medicine or compound.
00:18:11
Speaker
suffer That's something that I feel I'm bringing into the space. I'm not taking anything away from the current protocols and everything else that has gone through a vigorous process, but just adding that moment of pause to give thanks because this is what we did in ceremony. It was all about gratitude and appreciation and that constant giving thanks through the process of whatever we're working towards.
00:18:41
Speaker
One of the things that we talk about is to be able to even think about every single time, you know, funding grants go in that, you know, cultural considerations need to be made, that there needs to be money there to provide culturally safe care. Now, whether that's through collaborations with IPART where Kurt or myself could go into somebody else's trial,
00:19:05
Speaker
to sit with a First Nations participant, or whether they start advocating for and recruiting their own Indigenous therapists for these trials. Because that in in itself, for the fact that you know all of these trials are happening in a state where there's people that are really in need of it, but they just cannot engage through lack of safety.
00:19:26
Speaker
mary and And even before that, you know, one thing that we also had in the trial Kurt and I worked on is Kurt did connect with some of the local traditional owners beforehand to let them know what we were doing. And we did have a welcome and a smoking ceremony for the space that we were conducting the trial. And so even before sitting with a participant, you know, that relationship building and that, you know, creation of a ah safe and clean space for this work to happen was all part of the process as well. And not just for working with the Indigenous participant, but for all participants of the trial, you know, so grateful to our chief investigator that you know supported that.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds good. It also goes hand in hand with, you know, cultural safety training. You know, if there is across the board all trials for all therapists, then these are some of the ways that they'd be thinking because, you know, to have that form of education where it's not just an afterthought, where it is foundational in the work that they're doing, you know, some of these practices would be able to happen in any trial.
00:20:49
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And maybe for the listeners, I think it would be good just to say a bit about the trial that you Kurt and Bianca worked on, because I'm mindful that people might not know about it. So people listening outside of Australia or people who haven't heard about the work that you're doing, maybe we'll just give a little background for that. Whoever wants to.
00:21:11
Speaker
Yes, so we did a trial earlier this year. It was last year. It's still tricky, isn't it? Yes. So we did have a trial as mid-2024, with the first Indigenous participant in the trial for prolonged grief. And it was absolute success as We know the the medicine works, but once again, it's not what we're doing, it's how we do it. And knowing that we did create that, not only a safe, but sacred space for that woman to come in and be able to feel like she was held because the participant that we did have, knowing that, you know, a very powerful woman, she's used to holding her own community and holding a lot of space for everyone. It was good for her to be in that
00:22:10
Speaker
in that setting where she was able to let go. And if you're not in a safe or sacred space, then you're not going to really be able to access what the intention of what the medicine does and aht reach those parts of no where the work really takes place.
00:22:32
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely that sounds. And you know what I'm hearing and what all of you I think have said, and there's there's a lot that, you know, there's a lot to what we've been talking about. But what I'm hearing is that, you know, really, if you were wanting to think about kind of collaborating and bringing together Indigenous wisdom and other into this process. It has to start at the beginning. When you're writing a proposal, you you're looking for funding for bringing some offers and some training, some collaboration, and maybe in how you write even the protocols. because i mean I've been involved in a few research trials and
00:23:12
Speaker
I think that, you know, there's a lot that happens before I was sitting in the room that there's really that IPAC could be involved in and there are so many trials happening at the moment and so definitely also want to cover off on like how people can kind of get involved and when they should be thinking about doing that if they're interested because I think there is a lot of interest out there in my experience but I don't know and if that's what What do you think? Like if there's someone listening to this podcast now who's just about kind of thinking about getting a trial off the ground, what would be the first step for them in getting in touch with you or working with you?
00:23:50
Speaker
Well, that you know, definitely, as I mentioned before, is center is kind of cocktail safety training, you know, as foundational within their teams. But it's for Indigenous facilitators to be able to come in, the therapists to be able to sit with First Nations clients.
00:24:07
Speaker
You know, I mean, that would be at least something that, you know, could be a really great start. So that way it could be advertised that there is cultural responsiveness. I think it, you know, it's great that Curt and I can come in for these things, but I think it is a responsibility of all therapists and Apra even is talking.
00:24:25
Speaker
about this now, about our therapists upgrading their cultural competencies. I think that should be a minimum that all therapists are doing to provide this you know you know that cultural responsiveness across the board. Also considering, you know I think a lot of We need to remember that a lot of these settings, you know, clinics and hospitals have been historically harmful for First Nations people. It's only been in very, very recent times like the last 50 years or under.
00:24:57
Speaker
In some cases that First Nations people were even able to enter those spaces. So they're not conducive with um a healing environment for a lot of First Nations peoples and communities. So, you know, when there is that cultural responsiveness, you know, we can consider other environments, at least for preparation, at least for those conversations and and putting people more at ease that are going to go into a space that they find quite triggering, you know, for themselves or intergenerationally as well.
00:25:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, most of the, at the moment, most trials are happening either in the university settings or in a hospital or in a clinic space. And you're right, you know, I think there's a lot to be gained for all people in widening that, I think.
00:25:42
Speaker
I think that would be great in terms of kind of being in maybe a more natural environment or a place where there's more nature. ah you know I remember being involved in because the Monash trial that I worked on. We did a self experience and it was definitely quite jarring to finish my psilocybin dosing. And then I was you know's picked up by a beautiful friend who was my support person, but going home through the traffic is not an ideal place to be integrating, I think. And I think we knew that, you know, and that's what we had to work with. And we were lucky in some ways to have the room that we did that was not too clinical, but it's still a university. You know, that's still would be good to have it out in the community, I think.
00:26:26
Speaker
I think the other issue is, you know, from that Indigenous to a Western viewpoint is, you know, he individualistic healing that happens within this space. Whereas for First Nations people, it's more relational. So, you know, the strength of a person is also aligned with, you know, their connection within community, their roles and responsibilities. So there's no real space in the current models that we're seeing.
00:26:54
Speaker
for you know those Indigenous values or those ways of knowing being and doing, where they are part of that community and community-based healing is foundational in their overall wellbeing. Yeah. And what would you like to see done differently in that space, Gem? Because I think that's a really important point. if you had If you could create, and if you do create something in the future, what would it look like?
00:27:21
Speaker
Well, iPad has created something. Tell us. You know, we're in the process and we like for anyone that's listening, we would love helping being funded to complete our vision is to create a point of difference, not just for First Nations people, but for all people to be able to have choice within this field. Certainly, you know, group sessions as well as long term, you know,
00:27:48
Speaker
integration, preparation, but also group dosing sessions would be within our model of being a, you know, nature-based model as well. And just really more aligned with these, you know, what was foundational in the Indigenous knowledge systems. And also considering, you know, the original ways that these medicines were actually in relationship with humans. And that was in these ways, you know, in ceremony.
00:28:15
Speaker
not in such a clinical medical model. So really just honoring the spirit of of these medicines of of country as well as community. Yeah, that's right. I mean, they've been used by Indigenous communities all across the world for millennia, not in a hospital, not for a specific diagnosis. I mean, so I would personally love to see us move away from it needing to be only used for a specific diagnostic label because that has so many challenges and problems for all sorts of communities. And so that's one of my hopes for the future.
00:28:55
Speaker
as well. And also not reflective of positive outcomes. So, you know, I think of someone close to me that participated in a trial here and Did it improve their life for the diagnosis that they have? will improve the diagnosis they have Absolutely not.
00:29:16
Speaker
But did it improve their overall quality of life and wellbeing? Absolutely. But that's not going to be captured and as being you know as successful from what's being measured as such as well. So I think there's you know we miss out on a lot when we are trying to put these things in a box like that as well. But you know the other thing that's kind of integral to our model is giving these things the time and and space that they need in in those indigenous ways and being in in sync with the cycles of nature. And things happen slowly and cautiously and intentionally. And so, you know, that's something that I think we'd like to see as well is this process getting the space that it deserves.
00:30:05
Speaker
yeah yeah I think, you know, if I think about my own experience, like if I could just talk to that, the self experience that I had, it's it it took me at this part of the trial. It was three three years ago now and I'm still integrating it. it still I still stay close to that experience. I'm still unfolding parts of it in my everyday life. And so that's the other side of it. There's the preparation.
00:30:32
Speaker
can take a long time, but the integration should shouldn't ever finish at the end of even if you are on that pathway. It takes it can take years and should know she'd be honoured in that way. It isn't a lot of design in these trials that allows for that you know soft case to land and that ongoing connection to people.
00:30:52
Speaker
who have had a similar journey or a similar experience and maintaining connection to a community because so many people that participate in these trials, they don't know other people that have worked with plant medicines. Everyone thinks that they just went and tripped on mushrooms or that their experience that they had was really woo-woo and now they've lost it a little bit. and so Part of our model is also about creating community and creating a safe place to land on the other side of this that is an ongoing source of connection.
00:31:28
Speaker
people is definite say And even lifelong integration, you know, some of these methods and practices that we have interwoven within our model is lifelong integration. You know, it's not about just sitting with with the therapist long-term, which obviously that will happen, but it's finding ways where people start to build their relationships as well.
00:31:52
Speaker
with the natural world and which will give them not only, you know, their more than human kin community, but lifetime of support as well once they really have embraced these ways that, you know, unfortunately so many people are so disconnected from and they're so dependent on that therapist's relationship. Whereas through an Indigenous knowledge system, you know, we know that our lead facilitator is the land.
00:32:20
Speaker
you know, that we always have that support from the earth, from country. But yeah, so to be able to pass on some of that those ways within our model, you know, we feel will be beneficial for everyone, not just First Nations participants. Yeah, that's so beautiful what you just said, Gem, about the lead facilitator being the land. And I think that is something that's so and so important to remember and can it get easily forgotten or not mentioned. in you know and I think in trial spaces you know that i've I've been involved in, if different therapists might do it differently, there's an attempt at some sort ceremony if you like but there's definitely something deeper that I think it it would be good to think about and I know that from talking to other people something that I hear quite a lot from non-indigenous therapists who want to have like how do they have reverence for indigenous culture without falling into cultural appropriation and that's something that we've kind of touched on a little bit but it's something that I hear so a lot so I thought I'd put that to you and see what your thoughts were on that.
00:33:29
Speaker
Well, they engage with indigenous facilities. They want to bring in indigenous content or they do some cultural training. You know, it's something to want that, but you've actually got to commit to becoming culturally responsive.
00:33:43
Speaker
You know, otherwise they lose begin to start looking at their own lineages and reconnect there. And that's the way some of these practices are designed, that we can work with Indigenous, non-Indigenous people and help support nurturing their ancestral wisdom that can come through. So that can be for therapists as well.
00:34:02
Speaker
yeah so yeah That's an important point, isn't it, to kind of connecting to their own lineage? I was talking to another guest on the podcast about about that, and then her she's kind of relearning how to connect into her Jewish heritage on a deeper level. and You know, I think that's something that people can do for themselves. And even if you might not know exactly where that is, it comes from for you. It's it's in you. i'd like It's kind of in your soul. and what You know it on some part of you know knows that.
00:34:36
Speaker
and act that was girl something yeah yeah I You did touch on exactly how we do encourage everyone to get in contact or connect with their own lineage, with their own culture. And for some people it is difficult for to ah to access that and they may not have the knowledge of their bloodline or their lineage.
00:35:00
Speaker
But regardless, as you said, there's this innate on a cellular level, there's memory there that when we do start to delve into certain cultures and traditions, we do see the blueprint there of how we do connect back to the sacred. And whether it was your ceremony, ritual, song of dance, there's a very profound blueprint there that shows us that that we all had it in our own way. It's just different styles and times and languages, but there is a similar language that goes beyond what we can really see and hear. It goes, we can feel it. We know it. It's innate.
00:35:45
Speaker
and And it's not to say that people can't, you know, therapists, it's, it you know, any ceremony or anything is about honoring the sacred. It's holding really safely with an honoring. And so, you know, if people aren't able to connect with their own lineages initially, as Kurt said, we do have practices that help to activate that cellular memory. But initially, it's about walking into the space, being accountable for how they're showing up with their energy.
00:36:14
Speaker
It may just be as simple as as, you know, setting an intention, grounding themselves before they come in, you know, really sitting with their own energy and being accountable for that energy exchange with their client. So any ritual building, you know, anything that they're doing with purpose and intention can become the sacred. crit It doesn't have to have be grounded in a cultural practice.
00:36:37
Speaker
So you know if they're making their personal rituals and obviously with consent, with their with their client they're working with and creating space for their client to bring in for what's comfortable for them, then they're creating that awkward space. But again, it's about you know being that accountable for how they're showing up in that space, that understanding that.
00:36:57
Speaker
They are working with spirit. They're working at an energetic level. That's not just a physical, you know, client and therapist sitting in a room. You know, there's so much more going on in that space. And again, this is things that we're advocating for, you know, knowing that people are having a spiritual experience. It might be called mental health treatment or trial.
00:37:17
Speaker
But it's just really, you know, bringing to the forefront that these medicines have, you know, since time immemorial have been used for so much, or they've never been used for mental health. It's been for holistic wellbeing, always in spiritual experiences. And I think that's what's, you know, mostly left out of the conversation here in Australia. Yeah. But such an important point and resonates a lot with me. And I think, you know,
00:37:46
Speaker
it It sounds like but for you, yeah the way that it's being brought in Australia, people are there's this idea that you need to be a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist to do this work, or you know more psychotherapist also involved, but I feel like Yes, I use my clinical psychology training all the time, but I use i don't think that equipped me to do this work well. And i think you know I think about the kind of spiritual experiences that people are having and you need you do need to have some holding around that as well. It's incredibly important. and bi but Well, I think that you know the element of therapist training is a huge issue as well, because part of me thinks like, all right, these
00:38:36
Speaker
medicines have been utilised since time immemorial by indigenous peoples worldwide and people undergo very long apprenticeships and mentorships before they're allowed to serve these medicines. You know, I've spent many years living in Mexico and, you know, with the Peyote tradition and Americana apprentices for nearly 10 years before they even served Peyote for the first time, right? And then it's like, and yet we here in the Western world are thinking that could be possible for therapists that have never sat with the medicine to be serving and holding space. I mean, why don't we think that's really arrogant to think that we can buy cars, any kind of
00:39:24
Speaker
Apprenticeship or experience now, I know we're not doing this work here in a clinical setting. We're not picking up, you know, you should be both condition in the Amazon and plonking in the Western context, but.
00:39:38
Speaker
in In terms of how we train and how we learn and how to hold that space, it is through that experiential learning. And a lot of people say, oh, but certain therapeutic modalities don't require you to undergo your own treatment when you learn them. So why should this be any different? The reality is every modality I've trained in that has been robust and useful has required me to undergo my own treatment.
00:40:07
Speaker
as part of the training. you know Sensory motor psychotherapy required me to see a sensory motor psychotherapist. EMDR required me to have my own EMDR. So why should something that has the psycho-spiritual connotations of you know that plant medicine does be any different? And I know that's a very contentious issue in the community.
00:40:29
Speaker
yeah But yeah, like I just think if if people in the jungle and are apprenticing for X number of years, then why do we think that we can just jump in and start serving with no experience?
00:40:40
Speaker
i Yeah, and I think you know having the the self-experience that I was able to have before I started working as a therapist on the trial I worked on was quite ah was a contentious issue. They'd managed to do that because it was a separate research trial and so that's how they were able to offer that. But in general, if it's outside of a research trial, that's actually not possible within the legal frameworks within Australia at the moment. And I find that really concerning. i I mean, when I did my clinical psych training in England, I had to have my own therapy a lot of the way through that. um I don't think that's always the case, but that was for my training. And I think, you know, you really do have to be willing to step into the shoes of your clients and receive the training in any, that I personally think you should do that in any therapeutic modality that you use. I really strongly.
00:41:34
Speaker
feel that. I think that's true of psychedelics. and i mean i I know there's probably caveats to that. you know people may have I wouldn't want to exclude someone who had a physical reason why they couldn't take a psychedelic, for example, from doing this work if they had other things. That meant they really wanted to that they would be a really good person to do this work. but Yeah, I think it's something that is really important to think about as we move into the clinical use here because at the moment it's actually really quite challenging for people to have those experiences in a legal framework in Australia outside of the trial. so lin That's a can of worms. An important one.
00:42:13
Speaker
very So, I mean, I guess it was something that we've probably covered a little bit, but I'd like to give some more space to really is what do you, what opportunities do you really want to see for Indigenous and non-Indigenous folk to work together? What's already happening and what do you think is needed? And we spoke about some of this, but I feel like there's a bit more to.
00:42:35
Speaker
Barra's working together, you know, from an IPAP perspective. We've put our hand out for over two and a half years as a hand of welcome for people to engage with us through cultural consultancy for their trials, treatments or practice.
00:42:51
Speaker
And, you know, we love connecting with people, so there's always space for collaboration, as I mentioned, to be involved in, as Indigenous therapists, in other people's trials or practice. But we do advocate for recruitment of more Indigenous therapists. So Kurt and myself became the first Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people trained within Australia that were non-clinical.
00:43:15
Speaker
We advocated for nearly two years for us to be trained. Neither of us had Western registration with a, you know, a big body. So, you know, this is one of the things that we were, you know, we're really proud of that we've created that legacy for Indigenous therapists that are coming after us, because we may not have Western qualifications, but both of us have quite extensive qualifications in former informed care and practice from an Indigenous perspective. So, you know,
00:43:44
Speaker
For cultural people, we are seen as therapists. So I think, you know, as I said, to create that legacy so more people can follow in our footsteps. And if the industry is really serious about, as they say, that they want to make this space more inclusive, then they need to be able to start recruiting Indigenous therapists. Or as we said, you know, we've provided opportunities through training where they can continue to engage with us and build their cultural responsiveness.
00:44:14
Speaker
But dare I say, you know, we've spent two and a half years in that space. Now we're at the point where we're really excited this year about putting focus on our own model. We would love support from the industry to be able to do that, whether that's with funds, whether that's with helping with grant writing and things like that, if people are able to, you know, start thinking in reciprocity ways to be able to give back to an independent First Nations organisation. You know, we've sort of worked on love, you know, for the last two and a half years. So, you know, to be able to be supported by people that can help us with our own vision moving forward, I think per would provide, a you know, incredible help that we just aren't able to source ourselves or just have the time with the work that we're already doing.
00:45:04
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll make sure that people have, anyone who's listening to that has your contact details in the show notes before I put your website there. That's probably the best thing, isn't it, for people to find you? Absolutely.
00:45:18
Speaker
And I can put your your emails as well as you like, but well we'll make sure your contact details are available because I think there's, you know, I think that sounds like a really important thing to be able to develop and we all need, we need funding and we need people to help help come together and actually collaborate with you and the IPAT.
00:45:36
Speaker
Because I think that the I guess the irony is when we're involved on grant applications for other people's trials, it helps to make their trial look better, more culturally inclusive, which is great, you know, and we have advocated for that. But if we're constantly engaged, you know, that way,
00:45:54
Speaker
you know, we're not able to give the honour the space that we really need to get our model off the ground. And I think moving forward, that's where, you know, we're quite passionate about being able to focus on that this year and truly give all Australians a choice within this field, not just, you know, providing in and more culturally safe care and practice for Indigenous people, but giving that choice for all people that want to engage in these trials and treatments. Yeah.
00:46:22
Speaker
but you know And to really see this cultural responsiveness training as core training in this space, not something that you do if you get additional funding or if you get time or those kinds of things. Because you know we know what the health outcomes are like for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in this country. We know that most organizations and institutions have some requirements around closing the gap or reconciliation plans and those kinds of things and people, you know, express interest and so we'd, I guess, love to see people walk the talk now and include this work as a core part of the process rather than an additional add-on as well. so
00:47:19
Speaker
That's where people can collaborate with ah iPad to you know for for consultancy or in their trainings that are offering you know to to link in and and connect with us in those spaces as as well because there's plenty of people that are wanting to access this medicine, as Jim has said, but it's currently not being delivered in a way that's safe for them to do so. Yeah.
00:47:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's definitely a exciting time to be alive. And, you know, for me, there's been a battle between science and spirituality and we're at the time where it's, it is coming together. but And from a big picture perspective, it's where science and spirituality is acknowledging each other and the fact that Gem and myself were able to be trained up in this and acknowledge for the work that we do within our communities.
00:48:18
Speaker
is a sign that, you know, it's coming together and this is collaborating with only Indigenous different working groups and clients and facilitators, but everyone coming together and using the best of what we have to help this become a sustainable process that we can all use doesn't matter what your background is, but it's going to create the the longevity of this space without things getting becoming dangerous or unsafe from every aspect.
00:48:57
Speaker
yeah I think it's also what I'd like to suggest or invite everyone listening to or anyone within the field is to actually read our paper. It's all laid out there of the reasons that we're advocating in this space. Surprisingly enough, I mean, we're really, really proud of this paper and it took a lot to get it published. You know, we spoke about things that often like to be heard in those spaces, but we're quite, we've been quite surprised of the silence we've heard from the industry. We haven't had many people reach out to us to even discuss further our paper, so we wonder if it's being just overlooked, if it's being ignored, or if it's intentionally bypassed in this space for lack of accountability.
00:49:44
Speaker
I would just like to invite everyone that is working within the PUT space to really have a read of that. Because you know where as I said, we've got our hand outstretched to really sort of work walk side by side as we've always suggested and training can be provided. We can provide private trainings for your whole team and really tailor things to the way that you're working. so We just really hope people that will embrace that work in our paper, but also in the work that we do with the intention that we offer it. Yeah. Thank you, Gem, I think. And I'll make sure I put the link to the paper in the show notes as well so people can find it easily. And I know i think that's, it's just such an important point. and And I was, when I was reading the paper, you know, you spoke about
00:50:35
Speaker
the alternative model having your basis in that like social and emotional well-being approach that just felt like something that would be useful for everyone. I was talking about like this seven interconnected domains of mind and emotion, body, family, community, culture, country, and spirituality. And I was reading that thinking, yeah, wow, this is actually something that would be useful for all humans.
00:51:02
Speaker
Well, absolutely. And surprisingly, that's over 10 years old, that framework that's been available. But surprisingly, most times that we talk about this framework, many Western therapists haven't even heard of it and certainly not working with it. You know, and you're right has made is something not just for indigenous people. It is something that, you know, we think is integral for holistic wellbeing for all people. And some of those domains that you just read out.
00:51:30
Speaker
primarily are overlooked. So you know to be able to really bring in methods that can help nurture those those domains for all people will bring incredible outcomes and something really unique.
00:51:45
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent about the power being framework. I've been on a few tangents about this podcast already, but I think you know if anyone hasn't read that you know that, Lucy Johnson wrote that as an alternative to the medical model of psychiatric diagnosis in the UK because the British Psychological Society and a whole bunch of other people came out to say that this model wasn't serving people, wasn't actually serving not the you know the community of mental health people or humans in distress that we were trying to serve. And so we needed something a lot more holistic. And yeah, I find whenever she comes over to do training in Australia, she finds herself in a training room full of social workers, but not so many psychologists. So any psychologists listening, you haven't read that, have a look, it's free. And then I will put the link in the show notes.
00:52:41
Speaker
and I think one of the final things that I'd love to just say is that, you know, I think what is also largely overlooked is Indigenous wisdom is science. You know, something that has been observed over thousands and thousands of years on this continent, but certainly by Indigenous people around the world.
00:53:03
Speaker
You know, what we're talking is not just something, you know, sort of woo woo. It is science that's been observed and understood, especially with these medicines, which are found, you know, the foundation of them are through Indigenous knowledge. So I think it is.
00:53:18
Speaker
really reflective of dominant you know systems and you know systemic racism that can appear in those spaces to not even acknowledge where they're coming from. So as Kurt mentioned before, it's really about these acknowledgments to become in right relationship with the work that people are doing.
00:53:38
Speaker
I think is at the forefront of what IPAT stands for with our values of, you know, everything with Indigenous knowledge is relational. So really asking people to reflect or therapists to reflect on what is their purpose in that space and what is their relationship to the work that they're doing and their clients. And yeah, so I guess that is something that I'd love people to begin to reflect on.
00:54:05
Speaker
Thank you, Gem. Yeah, that's, I think that it's really important and I think, Kurt, did you want to add anything anything to that? You know, it works hand in hand, like it's, you know, the division between the polarities of what people think it is that's actually, you know, coming back to the non-duality of reality and it's the coming together of all things, of all sides of different perspectives. And this is what's going to really amplify this space. And we're really going to see the evolution and growth happen and it's going to work from having those broader perspectives and looking at from other ways. Yeah. Collaboration.
00:54:48
Speaker
right All the indigenous cultures from the round of around the world have prophesied about these times too. So I agree with Kurt, we're at a really incredible time where, you know, when, if we come with that humility, you know, we can look at ways that we really can begin to weave our knowledge systems together and walk forward for the benefit of all rather than this hierarchy of, you know, what's getting put on top of something else. So I think, you know, if people are willing to embrace this opportunity, I think we can look at some really positive outcomes into the future in this area.
00:55:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think I really hope for that too. And I think, you know, bringing it this idea that science is only the thing that we call empirical science in the West is actually very unscientific if you really go through what the definition of science is.
00:55:46
Speaker
and so I really resonated with a lot of what you just said about that this is indigenous wisdom that has been observed for ah so millennia and so of course we need to hold that and I really hope that this, one of the reasons I wanted to start working in this space is I actually feel there's a real opportunity to bring some of the ideas that I was speaking about kind of moving away from the medical model and having a much more holistic understanding as long as we do it right and collaborate and work together with indigenous cultures and also you know that we work together as a community. That's one of the reasons for doing the podcast. It's not something that I had any funding for or
00:56:28
Speaker
I just wanted to do it and I wanted to interview interesting people that I knew that were working in this space because there was all these fascinating projects happening and I wanted to kind of give them a space to talk about. When you want something bad enough you find a way, right?
00:56:43
Speaker
it's and i um And that's what we like to say about, you know, people that continually question how they can engage with people culturally. If you do want something enough, you know, you will find a way. So please reach out to us and look forward to working and connecting with people into the future. Great. Thank you, everybody. Is there anybody, Bianca or Kurt or Jem, do you have any more final comments before we wrap up for today?
00:57:13
Speaker
I think that's it for me. Right here. That's it Doing great to have you on with you. yeah Yeah, thank you. I feel like there's so many things that we could keep exploring in this field. It's been really lovely to have you all here and thank you so much for taking time out of your evenings and making this happen. It's not a small thing to get all of us in the one space together and I really appreciate it and I've really enjoyed talk this conversation and I will be putting links to all those things in the show notes.
00:57:46
Speaker
And my thank you for really elevating our voices. I think this is, you know, very telling and so important why we need allyship in this space and to really help get our voice and our message out there. So really appreciate you having us on. Thanks for listening. If you're interested in following along on the journey with me, check out my Instagram or website details listed in the show notes.
00:58:13
Speaker
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