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Sacred Roots: Right Relationship, Respect, and Psychedelic Healing
0 Playsin 19 hours
In this episode, I interview the team of Sacred Roots. They bring together Indigenous and non-Indigenous therapists and healers to bridge Indigenous wisdom and embodied practice into the growing field of clinical Psychedelic Assisted Therapy (PAT).
Through two-way learning, they hope to stimulate critical discussion, embodied practice and further research into this important field – for right relationship, respect, and the greatest possibility for our collective healing and wellbeing.
im joined by Dr. Carlie Atkinson – CEO of We Al-li, Associate Professor of Social Work (Melbourne University)
Jem Stone – Co-founder of IPAT (Indigenous Psychedelic Assisted Therapies), We Al-li Facilitator & Wayapa Wuurrk Lead Trainer
Kirt Mallie – Co-founder of IPAT, Psychedelic-Assisted Therapist, We Al-li Facilitator & Wayapa Wuurrk Trainer
Mei Lai Swan – Sacred Roots Co-ordinator, Embodied Nature Therapies & Yoga for Humankind, Social Worker, Somatic and Psychedelic-Assisted Therapist & Educator
We cover the following topics :
The philosophy of Sacred Roots
Founding and values of Sacred Roots
Indigenous cultural exchange in peru
Therapist Training
Impact of cultural exchange of therapists
Upcoming trip plans – taking group of PAT therapists to Peru
Where to find out more about this trip
Keep in touch with me at
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BeyondtheTrippodcast
Insta: dresmedark
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esme-dark-627156a0/
Website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/
Disclaimer: This Podcast is for general information only and does noy constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic assisted psychotherapy
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:04
Speaker
Okay, welcome
Introduction of Sacred Roots Team
00:00:06
Speaker
everybody. I'm so delighted to have the team from Sacred Roots on Beyond the Truth podcast. We've been talking about doing this for a little while and I'm really delighted that today we're making it work. So welcome. um I'd love for you to kind of introduce yourselves and just briefly before we start so people know who's on the call as well. So whoever wants to go first.
00:00:33
Speaker
I can go
Team Member Introductions
00:00:34
Speaker
first. um Lucky first. um My name is Carly Atkinson and I'm a Bundjalung woman um and also a Yemen woman.
00:00:46
Speaker
Yemen country is up at Dawson River. um I'm the CEO of We Ali, which is a culturally informed and trauma integrated healing training organisation.
00:00:57
Speaker
and of course, I'm also involved in Sacred Roots. Yeah, beautiful. Can't wait to hear about that. I'll second. Yeah, go, Gem. I'll go second. My name is Gem and um I'm a proud Bundjalung woman also. I have lots of mixed heritage and um I'm one of the co-founders of ah IPAD, Indigenous Psychedelic Assisted Therapies.
00:01:20
Speaker
I also um so many um Indigenous wellness practices, including We Are Lee and also one of the founding members of Sacred Roots,
00:01:36
Speaker
Thank you, Jim.
00:01:42
Speaker
Pat, you want to go next? After you, Maylai. All right, I'm Maylai, and my heritage is Anglo-Australian, Scottish, Irish, and English, and Chinese, Malaysian. I was born in Naam in Melbourne, and now live on Bundjalung country, and I'm one of the founders and the coordinator of the Sacred Roots Project.
00:02:05
Speaker
Thanks, Maylai.
00:02:08
Speaker
I'm Kurt Malley. I'm a proud Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander man. i am a Karareg and Mawagal descendant ah from the far north of Queensland up into the Torres Strait Islands.
00:02:20
Speaker
And I'm also ah ah ah founder of IPAT. I am a Wiali facilitator, a cultural educator, spiritual teacher, and ah also another co-founder of Sacred Roots.
00:02:37
Speaker
Beautiful. Thank you so much. And listeners will remember that um Gemstone and and Kurt came on to the podcast a little while ago as it were to talk about iPad. And so if if you haven't listened to that episode, I definitely recommend having listened to that one as well.
00:02:53
Speaker
i'm And you're all very, you know, doing such such amazing projects and doing a number of different projects. So maybe we can have a bit of a chat about Hui Ali and Waiyapa Warwick, Sacred Roots and iPad.
00:03:06
Speaker
Because in a way, they're kind of all linked together and there's a fair bit of flow between these projects. I'd love to to hear you reflect on that. o Do you mind if I just say a little thing before we start?
00:03:20
Speaker
Love that. Yes. Yeah.
Interconnectedness of Projects
00:03:23
Speaker
Look, I think it's pretty exciting because really all of these projects, so We Are Leaves, you mentioned, WIPA Work, Sacred Roots and IPAT,
00:03:32
Speaker
They're really deeply interconnected. And I was thinking about it before we came on and I saw it like like branches, I guess, from the same tree, you know, drawing life from shared roots of healing and um reciprocity. And of course, the important one, connection to country.
00:03:50
Speaker
And you know even though We Are Lee is where my heart work is, which was founded by my mum, Emeritus Professor Judy Atkinson, It's grounded in culturally informed and trauma-integrated healing.
00:04:02
Speaker
Now, that brings together Indigenous knowledge knowledge systems, um ceremony, storytelling, and, of course, support for deep trauma recovery.
00:04:13
Speaker
And what I want to say about a Way Upper Work, which I know some of our facilitators, and including myself now, has been trained with Way Upper Work, it really complements this by... um ah reawakening, I guess, our connection to the earth through movement and ah mindfulness and cultural practices. So it's really deeply embedded.
00:04:32
Speaker
And Sacred Roots emerged as a natural flow from that work. um It's a place where Western research and Indigenous wisdom really meets on equal grounds.
00:04:43
Speaker
And it's about holding that space for sacred reciprocity. I think in Indigenous thinking, what we think about um is that flow is not linear. It's circular.
00:04:54
Speaker
And like the seasons or the tides or the song lines, these projects actually connect and speak to each other. They support each other and they create really a whole web of healing that I reckon that's bigger than any one of us.
00:05:10
Speaker
beautiful well carly beautiful yeah um absolutely agree with carly and um i i was thinking about it too carly where um just like we understand the interconnectedness of everything um all these projects that all of us are involved in ah love that analogy like the branches of the same tree because it it they all complement each other and they do actually draw strength from each other.
00:05:39
Speaker
um i don't think any one of those things has anything missing that they help to hold each other, but even more beautifully, they really can be the bridge um for Western frameworks, those missing pieces of the puzzle that we often see looking through the world through an Indigenous worldview.
00:05:59
Speaker
um you know, that some of these pieces that are missing and and not only are they missing, a lot of the Western therapists are and now voicing that they're really yearning. So that's really where these projects come into play in this space.
00:06:15
Speaker
Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah, think um I can't wait to hear about some of the work that you've been doing with some some Western therapists, but Kurt, do you want to share any reflections on that point or may lie?
Philosophy of Sacred Roots
00:06:30
Speaker
Oh, just, uh, you know, second and third, what Aunty Carly and Sissy Jam was talking about of the interconnectedness of the work that we do. although they're, they are different, uh,
00:06:45
Speaker
modalities in a sense, they they all definitely complement each other. And was something that we were able to offer to clinicians from an indigenous perspective, about the way of of trauma integrated healing approach, especially in Peru, it was it was something that, um you know, we even discussed the whole time of how well it it works and and definitely um enhances everything that we're doing in this space.
00:07:18
Speaker
Great, beautiful. And Mayla, do you want to add anything there? or
00:07:25
Speaker
Look, what I will say to that, and I'm so grateful for what Carly, Jim and Kurt have shared, because it kind of speaks to, you know, as a...
00:07:37
Speaker
difficult with the terminology, but you know as a non-Indigenous person, I know we're all Indigenous to this earth, but you know sort of not from a living Indigenous tradition at those current times, that in one of the ways, you know sort of how Sacred Roots emerged was from this web of relationship. And and for me personally,
00:07:57
Speaker
having learnt so much from you know people who are still carrying these living Indigenous traditions and wisdoms and sharing them with so much generosity and wisdom.
00:08:11
Speaker
And Carly, Jem and Kurt, this is the work they do. and So, you know, for me, and this is where I think the place is for, you know, Western and non-Indigenous people is to create relationships and and build bridges so that we can learn and help to, you know share and and learn together.
00:08:33
Speaker
So, you know, I would never speak, you know, in terms of um speak on behalf of those traditions or the wisdoms or what I've personally had the opportunity to learn you know here in Australia or with the people I've been working in Peru but what an amazing opportunity to support the bridging of relationships and the sharing of that wisdom more widely yes yeah absolutely I think um you know there is lot of interest in the clinical western psychedelic space in in working together with
00:09:08
Speaker
Indigenous people and and Indigenous wisdom and knowledge and so it's really wonderful to hear about all these different projects particularly about the the way that Sacred Roots are bringing those things together and holding them and bridging that space and it is relationships key isn't it in any kind of work in life it's kind of the most important fundamental things you know and I guess one of the reasons I start the podcast is to build relationships with different people and to kind of bring a network together of quite people doing different things but interesting curious things I'm all in this space from all over the world really so tell us like Sacred Roots from was created from a shared value space and you've shared a little bit about you know that that beautiful image of of being two branches of the of the tree all those different projects that you have worked with Carly but
00:09:58
Speaker
What about Sacred Roots? So tell us how it was actually born, because I actually don't know the backstory and I'd love to hear how it came about. How did you actually meet? and Whatever you want to share about that, how the relationships began.
Founding Values of Sacred Roots
00:10:11
Speaker
im yeah
00:10:15
Speaker
o I mean, i can I can kick that off and then hand over to Mayla who really sort of pulled it all together. But i um what I can say is all of us on the team of Sacred Roots clearly came together because we have a shared belief that healing is sacred work.
00:10:31
Speaker
um And I'll let everyone else talk about that a little bit more. But, you know, we' we're all really walking our own paths of decolonising and reconnecting and remembering. um And that's something we shared in common.
00:10:45
Speaker
And our shared values, I just want to say, are rooted values. in respect for Indigenous knowledge, as I mentioned before, in reciprocity, in giving back to the community and giving back to the lands where we learn.
00:10:59
Speaker
and We always say that the country is our lead facilitator. And also in understanding that ah true wellness is not just about individual healing. It's actually about collective transformation. That's a really key point.
00:11:13
Speaker
And, you know, we're we're also united, um I believe, by desire to hold a cultural container for conversations around psychedelics and trauma healing that importantly ah honours ancient practices, but also ah while being mindful of the modern challenges.
00:11:33
Speaker
So it's really about walking gently between those worlds and creating spaces that that importantly feels safe um and inclusive and grounded in spirit. Beautiful.
00:11:48
Speaker
Thank you, Carly. Yeah, that kind of, that that bridge between the two worlds is is very important. And I think that idea, know, I think we spoke in our pre-chat a while ago about kind of creating some balance between the two, which I think is really important as well.
00:12:03
Speaker
Mayla, do you want to share some now? Yeah. Yeah, and thanks, Carly. So, i mean, really I would say that how Sacred Roots was born was from our existing relationships and the shared you know that also were born out of our shared values.
00:12:24
Speaker
and I've had the the privilege and the honour to work with Carly and with We Ali over the years and was already connected with Jem and Kurt and knew about the amazing work that they were doing with IPAT.
00:12:36
Speaker
And the other part of the relationship is that I've been working and with the maestra in the Andes in Peru for a number of years quite deeply. And on one of my visits over there, sort of,
00:12:52
Speaker
felt you know my friends and colleagues who are here on on this call um there and i thought wow knowing the incredible work that they're doing and in the psychedelic assisted therapy space in australia and really championing the inclusion and the the honoring of indigenous
Indigenous Cultural Exchange in Peru
00:13:12
Speaker
knowledge and reciprocity that There was just that little curiosity. Maybe they'd be interested in coming over here and also meeting and learning and exchanging with people who are working with, you know, sacred plant kin in very alive traditions in Peru.
00:13:30
Speaker
And so sort of just put the put the word out there and it's like, what do you you know would you be interested? And it was from those conversations and you know the shared vision and the shared values that we started to to dream up the Indigenous Cultural Exchange, which was our first visit in in May 2024. And I'll pause there and then I'll let the others speak to experience it.
00:13:58
Speaker
That's great. And that was, yeah, I would say that was the first sort of time that I started to hear about you and the work that you were doing was when, and I'd love to hear about how that was, the cultural exchange in Peru in May 2024. So whoever wants to start and share a little bit for the listeners who might not know about that, because there's people come tuning in from all over the world. and And how did it come about? How was it? What would you like to share about that?
00:14:26
Speaker
I'm happy to jump in first on that. um so as Melai said, she'd been building this relationship with Maestra Cecilia for many years and when she shared some of her ideas and visions for Sacred Roots, I personally just thought it was something that I really wanted to be a part of because stepping into the psychedelic world assisted therapy space in Australia, I immediately recognised that that was something that was really missing, the sacredness and um and the ceremony um that just wasn't able to be held in the mental health space here.
00:15:07
Speaker
um So last last year when we went across, it really was what we often call a unifying of hearts. So it was really just meeting and building those relationships and um being able to what we ended up having this beautiful cultural exchange. So not only...
00:15:27
Speaker
in Chavin in the Andes. We also on that same trip, we visited the jungle of Akitos. So two different lineages. um And um yeah, very, very unique and very different in the way that um their unbroken lineages of their connections to medicine and ceremony were. But we were able to go over there and share a bit about what we do here. And, you know, the humility of um those two teachers was just incredible. They were just as interested to hear about what we're doing here, as well as so generously teaching us in some of their ways. So we knew that that first visit last year was really just that um that an initial relationship building.
00:16:11
Speaker
And, um you know, it was so wonderful to be able to go back again this year and this time, um you know, the next step of that vision by being able to take Australian therapists with us.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yes, and I can't wait to hear how that was because haven't managed to connect with all of you since then. This is the first time, so I'm really excited to hear about that soon. But I wonder if anyone else has any reflections on what on that ah the're the first time that you went over there.
00:16:43
Speaker
I'm on that cultural exchange, which also, you know, if we think about networks and relationships and Melai and I have known each other in different professional capacities for many years. And Simon Raphael, who also has a very strong connection to one of the places that you went is someone who I know really well. And that's how I met you, Gem. And so there's really that web of interconnectedness that feels really present on this call.
00:17:08
Speaker
I wanted to name that. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it was, I might just finish off by saying that that was how we had our second connection in the jungle with Don Rono Lopez um was through my connection with Simon Raffel and Anaya Science.
00:17:27
Speaker
So he'd be work he'd been working with Rono for several years And um through that connection. So, again, it's, you know, these wider webs of relationships that um are exactly what we've what we've just been talking about. So um and then once we're able to meet Rono and build our own connections and relationships, it it just... um you know, it was just something really beautiful that was able to grow. And i think, you know, a big part of these building relationships is these warm referrals too, you know and um you know, and I think that is something that's really missing in the sense that people that want to make these connections don't, haven't had the time or they haven't taken the time to build these deep relationships. So I think that's something that's really unique to Sacred Roots in this space as well.
00:18:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's really important, Gem, and and and the word relationships will come up time and time again. And in fact, it's one of the seven R's in We Are Lee that um we consider our law as in L-O-R-E, relationships, relatedness. And none of this work can happen without those without those relationships. And also um making sure that we keep those relationships going.
00:18:42
Speaker
Really, that's what it's all about, isn't it um and Instead of kind of taking other people's knowledge and and doing with it what we please, and which happens in this space, absolutely happens is in this space, we're actually saying let's build a relationship with the cultural holders of that knowledge in ah in reciprocity.
00:19:04
Speaker
And honouring them for the for the work that they've carried for generations. And I think that's something that we really wanted to step into with Sacred Roots, but also even with the work that we're doing in IPAD as well, is really bringing that acknowledgement back to the fact that psychedelic medicines is Indigenous knowledge. So and me, it was very important to be able to go to some of these knowledge holders with humility and um and sit and listen and learn and Yeah, it's been life changing.
00:19:38
Speaker
ah um It reminds me of the when I went over the first time last year with the gum trees that stood around the temple there in Shevin. They felt like familiar guardians, I guess.
00:19:51
Speaker
And it felt like the country was whispering to us across the continents. So the relationship felt like it was with the land, the country itself as well. Yes, I think i saw so I saw something about that, that there was gum trees, which people not in Australia, we find here in Australia that that you connected with over there. That's so beautiful and very appropriate, right? Like it feels like there was a message in that for sure.
00:20:20
Speaker
Okay, do you want to share anything? I think we've lost May live for a moment, but hopefully she'll just come back in. I just wanted to share, um you know, as Indigenous people, we obviously know the the power of a seed.
00:20:36
Speaker
And it was a really good reminder, and especially um from May Lai helped us ah during the trip last year. And ah by bringing, you know, us, the group over and creating Sacred Roots and But the power of the prayer, the the seed that she planted in a sacred site during ceremony and how much that was amplified and how quickly that was able to manifest.
00:21:05
Speaker
So we were able to. do that again this year in those sacred sites during ceremonies to continue to offer um these prayers and to plant these seeds and knowing that we're continuing to cultivate those seeds that have already been planted and and what's coming of that is uh it's endless but uh we're starting to really already after this short time start to reap the uh the rewards and even starting to to eat some of the fruits uh from these seeds so um and i was i was thinking as uh as you were all talking earlier as uh
00:21:49
Speaker
of how um me personally i've been very passionate about creating the most safe and sacred space to do the deepest work possible ever since i've gotten down all into this uh this field working with psychedelics and but just doing ceremony in general for all types of things different kinds of initiations and things like that but uh when i was on my lonesome i couldn't imagine you know 10 years ago when um you know to be working with such powerful wonderful and amazing women that we've all come together and uh they're not just collaborating but you know we've become family during this whole process yeah
00:22:39
Speaker
a I love that, Kurt. I feel the same. And I think that's, I think that is that what underpins this whole project is the love around it as well. I think it is, you know, people so often say a labour of love, but it really is, um you know, in service, you know, I feel like I'm i'm really in service, but the love that, you know, is around the the project and the work that we do in this space, I think, know,
00:23:08
Speaker
You know, i can't imagine um what that would be like without that love and that sacredness that Kurt just talking about. And, you know, i have to say that, that ah the fears around what's seen in the Western models where it's so clinical that that love and relationship and connection and nurturing the seeds of a vision, um you know, that sacredness just, you know, isn't necessarily present or there just isn't space for that to be able to be held and,
00:23:38
Speaker
And so that was what became, you know, integral in the vision of, you know, IPAT and therefore also, you know, every every one of those areas that all of us are working, you know, that that is kind of underpinned with that love and sacredness.
00:23:54
Speaker
we don't talk about love enough on this podcast thank you for bringing it in I was just I was just thinking a dirty L word I mean we can't say this is the key of all of this work I think and I actually I have to I was thinking about our conversation um a few months ago when we were kind of planning Jem and Carly and we did talk about the importance of bringing men and women back together in circle and I actually, just for my own reflection, like I feel like working in a dyad, usually with a male, um has been a huge gift to me from this psychedelic work.
00:24:34
Speaker
I have a deep respect, love and care for the men that I've worked with. And I've just learned so much about being with that kind of um the healed masculine in a way that has been really powerful for me, actually.
00:24:49
Speaker
And I don't think it's always like that, probably, but I feel very grateful and lucky that I've worked with some incredible men and there's a lot of love in the room. and and And potentially, as well as you were talking then, Esme, I'm thinking about the fact that we see each other as brother and sisters, you know, in this space. And I think this is the real difference of You know, walking in Indigenous spaces, it's it's non-hierarchical.
00:25:15
Speaker
You know, every single one of us has an equal place in this space. We're just as valued. We all bring out, you know, unique knowledge and gifts, um yet there's no power.
00:25:25
Speaker
dynamics that we can often see in those Western frameworks where there's experts in the room and, you know, others, you know, sort of imbalanced with their knowledge or imbalanced in how they're valued within the space. Whereas lot of these Indigenous frameworks, we recognise that every single one of us brings knowledge that's integral to this project.
00:25:48
Speaker
So, so true, Gem. And it it reminds me, we just, Gem and a few other facilitators, five We Are Leave facilitators, just rang a facilitator training on country, a deep um dick dive residential.
00:26:02
Speaker
And it was interesting. One of the things that, um or pieces of feedback that I got consistently, Gem, and I'm sure you got that as well, was how deeply we were connected to each other as facilitators.
00:26:14
Speaker
And that deep love was really obvious. to all the participants there and how that helped them feel safe, knowing that we had that deep respect um and and that was in call. There was no hierarchy hierarchy in that relationship. But there's also no hierarchy with the participants in the room either. It's it's all very, very balanced.
00:26:37
Speaker
Yeah. beautiful absolutely and and that was one of the first things that we really established this year when we took people to shavim when we took the therapist over you know the first part of anything that we can do is really creating that safe and sacred space and ah huge part of that is leaving our titles or our roles at the door and stepping into circle as equals and And so that was something, even that first little bit that we we're able to bring in for people was something that many had never even experienced in their lives.
00:27:11
Speaker
So um from that first, very first step of stepping into that space, people started to feel like that they could feel at home and they could feel just as valued as everyone else. And As we know, you know, and that's a huge part of that healing can only begin when we feel safe enough to be in spaces like that.
00:27:33
Speaker
Yeah. And I'd love to hear about that because you want to share a little bit about that? So you went on your first culture exchange in May 2024 and then this year you've been to Peru with it group of Western psychedelic
Impact of Cultural Exchange on Western Therapists
00:27:47
Speaker
therapists. is that And so tell us about that. How was it? I'm sure there's lots of things you could share.
00:27:53
Speaker
i'm so yeah, who would like to start?
00:27:57
Speaker
I can touch a little bit on that. And, uh, it was a phenomenal experience to be able to take, you know, these academics and, uh, very clinical people into a space that is completely out of their comfort zone.
00:28:15
Speaker
but to remind them of how sacred this work is that we're doing. And it doesn't matter um what compound you're working with. Ultimately we're working with energy and all energy has spirit. So it's almost, ah well, it was coming back to, you know, non-linear dimensions of reality that they cannot quantify or you cannot necessarily put into a paper or,
00:28:40
Speaker
um even put onto, ah you know, into words. it's It's something that's got to be directly experienced. So to be able to offer that and to remind people of, of you know, what we were just talking about earlier, love.
00:28:56
Speaker
to it is the foundation of sacredness it's when we start to access that doorway into those parts of ourselves where the deeper healing actually starts to occur because you know we can write about it we can talk about it but until it's directly experienced and felt in that sense, this is where the magic happens. So it was a great honor to be with this wonderful team, to be able to hold that space for ah these amazing people to activate their own own healing capacity. Thank you, Kurt. How many people did you take over in the end? How many you were there in the group?
00:29:46
Speaker
ah Those 12 clinicians, it's good to have Maylai back because she can. Hi, Maylai, yes.
00:29:54
Speaker
Be great for Maylai to speak to. there, sorry, I dropped out the internet issues here today. um can you hear me okay? Yep.
00:30:06
Speaker
I'm just sad and so I missed the magic that was shared while I was offline.
00:30:13
Speaker
um So I think it was 11 therapists. i don't know if you can still hear me. yep Okay, great.
00:30:26
Speaker
11 therapists and then um Jim, Kurt and myself as well. And then the the team from Peru.
00:30:37
Speaker
Beautiful. And How did it go? What are your key takeaways? What would you like to share? Whoever wants to go, and we can hear you find that, Maylai.
00:30:48
Speaker
So that's good.
00:30:51
Speaker
Has Jim shared already a little share You share, Maylai. You share, Maylai. We'd love for you to give your feedback on this.
00:31:04
Speaker
so um And it was great. I'm really glad that i I heard some of what Kurt was sharing in there. um And it was just making me reflect on one of the main conversations I was having with Maestra Cecilia, that she was so excited that there was a group of therapists there.
00:31:22
Speaker
and that these ways can start to ripple. And she said time and time again, know, the most important thing is this transformation from the inside, that they really go in and have their own deep experience, even in the thinking of how best to support people in psychedelic assisted therapy.
00:31:40
Speaker
And this is very much what we saw and what was so profound that everybody who was there They did. They went in and they met themselves with the medicine, with the temple, with the mountains to do that really deep inner work.
00:31:57
Speaker
And the transformation that's come through that, that they've shared, you know, during the trip and since we've had a group catch up online has been so profound, you know, speaking about shifts in worldviews, not feeling like the same person or the same therapist, um and then really deep transformations, you know, for many in their own ah experience in their own personal lives. So for me it was just it was so profound um and so much was shared about the combination of the knowledge and the wisdom and the experience that was shared from everyone on the team and the place and the the traditions that we got to learn from.
00:32:46
Speaker
i'd probably just follow that by saying i ah adding that, you know, really part of that vision was to help to be able to inform therapists as they come back to Australia to, you know, these deeply felt lived experiences that they had over there and these these huge shifts on a personal level, um every single person there has said that it really will help inform them to be better therapists and that is the whole vision
00:33:20
Speaker
of um of sacred roots. you know We're not just taking people over there for for the fun of it. It really is because it it builds to our vision of having more connected ways and sacred ways that psychedelic therapy therapy in Australia is able to move. And so for you know those 11 therapists, it will help inform them as they come back and they're working back in their spaces. Yeah.
00:33:50
Speaker
And i might I might just add to that too, because I don't know what we shared before, but you're just bringing that up, Gem, that this really is the key. And this is why we're at such an exciting moment with psychedelic assisted therapies for MDMA and psilocybin now legal in Australia and so many therapists.
00:34:09
Speaker
really keen to train in it and explore the field and and get involved. But, you as was said, I think it's just so important that it's rooted in the sacred and it's rooted in, um you know, grounded Indigenous knowledge and and ways.
00:34:26
Speaker
For me, I see, you know, so much of the root have the mental health crisis is happening is the you know lack of connection or this deep disconnection. There's so much that's available, you know, through the the wisdom, you know that Kali, Jem and Kurt, that they're bringing forward, that these maestros and maestros in Peru, they're making it available. They also want to share and inform and and help this this sacred work be held with a deep reverence and deep personal experience.
00:35:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, you know, in in the therapy, in psychotherapy, they talk about like, you can, you can really only take someone as far as you've gone yourself in your healing work. And, and, know, I've spoken about this quite a few times on the podcast that that one of my real concerns in Australia is that in Australia, it's actually really hard for people.
00:35:24
Speaker
to legally get a felt sense of working with medicine, the medicines have been rescheduled here, which I think is so key, like in terms of how we do this work, how we support people.
00:35:36
Speaker
says that piece and then there's the piece of like the fact that these medicines have those indigenous roots and the sacred roots of these medicines to to use the title of your organization is is such an important thing to hold so it's really beautiful to hear that you are able to offer some of this to western therapists um i think it's really really important i am I haven't released it yet, but i just actually last week recorded an episode with Simon Yugler from America, and he lives in Oregon, where they've rescheduled in a really different way.
00:36:10
Speaker
i'm and Well, they've legalized psilocybin in in a different way, which makes things a lot more straightforward for people to have their own experience. And it was just interesting in kind of chewing over and discussing the tension that I feel i'm around that in Australia.
00:36:24
Speaker
so Yeah. but go I won't go to tell a total side quest about that, but yeah. No, but how important, it's so important. And um with the work that we do in WILE, one of the things that we say all the time is that the personal and professional are interlinked.
00:36:38
Speaker
So if that's, and that fits very much into a psychotherapy type framework as well. um But if we can't go in, then it's, it's you know, the ah capacity to go out with knowledge, the capacity to then go out with deep empathy is just not, um it's not available. That's been my experience.
00:36:57
Speaker
But I think what's really important here too is, you It means ensuring our Indigenous voices, that and they're not just at the table, but they're leading the conversations where cultural and spiritual knowledge is required.
00:37:11
Speaker
and And I know, and I didn't get the opportunity, by the way, to go over this time, unfortunately, because we'd had a death in the family, so I can't talk properly. you know, really clearly to the experiences over there. But one thing I do know from talking to Jem and Maylife particularly, um and I haven't had a good yarn with Kurt yet, is there was this deep recognition that the land, the ceremony, you know the cultural protocols are just as important, if not more important, than clinical settings. Absolutely.
00:37:44
Speaker
Absolutely. yeah i think I think the other thing that um with that, Carly, I think this is the beautiful part of where the framework of Oiyali and Wayapa you know, what we're sharing in IPAT actually is able to come in for those reasons of, as you say, you know, the recognising the ceremony, the sacredness and the connection to country.
00:38:11
Speaker
is foundational in that. Yet there seems to be, you know, there's a huge gap of how Western therapists are able to access that knowledge. And this is where some of these modalities or some of these frameworks that we offer can be a beautiful bridge to offer that um for people. And, um you know, within Sacred Roots, as those therapists are there experiencing the knowledge from those lineage holders,
00:38:37
Speaker
they're also receiving that training from us. We deliver that training. So as they come back, they really do have a pathway that they're able to start exploring the sacredness within themselves. As Carly said, you know, going in to be able to go out. so we we invite their own sacredness to be able to step forward from their own personal lineages, from their own deep connections with the land where they live and and helping them to nurture and cultivate that.
00:39:05
Speaker
um And, yeah, it's it makes the world of difference because then we're not looking at um any sort of appropriation because I think when IPAT first started out, that was one of the the first talk that we ever did at at a conference.
00:39:20
Speaker
Therapists asked us, well, how can we do this without appropriating? So these are really beautiful pathways forward that therapists are now able to access um and we help to you know, encourage ways for them to nurture their own connection so that the appropriation doesn't happen.
00:39:39
Speaker
a Thank you, Gem. And I'd love to, so I'd love to hear a little bit about your upcoming trip because you've come back a few months, a month ago so now, maybe, maybe two months ago from Peru, but you're actually also planning to return with another group of therapists
Upcoming Trip to Peru
00:39:58
Speaker
in December. Is that right? Would you, who would like to share about that?
00:40:04
Speaker
Go ahead, Gem.
00:40:07
Speaker
I think, um house did you say for me to share, Melo? Yeah, go ahead. Okay. I'll start and then I'd love for you to add to that.
00:40:18
Speaker
um I guess I'll just say that um the reason that we're going in December is because it's the second lineage. So um in in May, we went to Shevin with Maestra Cecilia and December, we're going back to the jungle um with Don Rono Lopez. So it really is two different ways, two different lineages, different teachings um and two different completely different experiences with We already have one therapist that um has enrolled to come in December as well because they recognise, um you know, that they're going to receive different teachings and really curious about or just really excited about continuing the work that they started in Shivin.
00:41:05
Speaker
um So, yeah, you know, I will just touch on that, but I'd love to hand to you, Maylai, on questions. on some of the experiences will be so different in, um, in a key toss because we're including some other things in that, in that work.
00:41:21
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And as Jim said, you know, it is, I guess, the two main medicines that are used in Peru are the San Pedro Huachuma, the cactus, and then ayahuasca.
00:41:37
Speaker
And there's many different ah Indigenous peoples and and traditions with that medicine as well. But through Simon Raffel that we had been connected into Don Rono Lopez.
00:41:48
Speaker
We visited last year. um ah Gemini went back in January, December, January this year for a month just to deepen in those ah ways and, you know, for our own experience and learning.
00:42:03
Speaker
And it became very clear then. that it would be ah wonderful you know sort of extension, evolution of sacred roots to also be able to support those connections for therapists to learn in this unique, connected way with the Shipibo traditions as well. And one of the things that was so unique there is that Don Rono is an absolute genius teacher He's a maestro and he's been, learned from his grandfather since he was nine.
00:42:37
Speaker
So he, and he's very passionate about sharing his tradition in a way that's really authentic. He said that's actually the most important thing to him. He said, you know, that the world is, it's you know, it's it's in quite a state at the moment and they know it's like, well, the Shipibo can't and support it everybody, but they know the the power of their tradition and the medicines. and I'm not talking just about the ayahuasca, but the whole cornucopia of the plants, of the jungle and their ways.
00:43:09
Speaker
And he's so passionate about sharing them and really teaching and the the methods and the tradition, the Icaros, treatments.
00:43:19
Speaker
He teaches that in a really clear and accessible way for the Western mind, which is a very rare and unusual skill. um And just at the times that we're in, you know, with the crossover of this work and more Western therapists really interested in learning um from traditional cultural knowledge holders,
00:43:41
Speaker
that, wow, here's rare... here's a rare a rare being who's really passionate about offering that. And then, of course, you know, the work and the the wisdom that the team of Sacred Roots brings, that that is held in a really safe and trauma-informed way with additional training um and knowledge and practices. So kind of a complete package in a way. You know, i kind of see this as a lot of the things that people don't get in the
00:44:12
Speaker
um clinical psychedelic assisted therapy trainings. It was really different from the first time that when I went over with with everyone, um the second time that everyone went over, ah which I wasn't at, as I said, my um I'd had a family death, is that they like this time it had been laid with these different trainings. And so there was somatic trainings, there was the way upper trainings, there was the wheelie training. So there was a real circle of support around it. And so that was our learnings, I guess, from the first time over there was actually to have those different layers and that circle of support, which um unfortunately I wasn't there to experience.
00:44:55
Speaker
um But I know that you'll be able to talk to that clearly. Yeah,
00:45:01
Speaker
I think what's another another thing that's really unique about the jungle, Melo mentioned the treatments um but also the dieta. So learning ways that we can connect deeply with some of these plants that are non-psychedelic. And I think that's something that is, um again, we come back to the word relationship because it's truly and helping people to to feel these deep relationships that they can um start to build with those plant allies. And Rono is just the most remarkable teacher who really just,
00:45:40
Speaker
guides people on that journey, but really just not only ah an incredible teacher, but a humble teacher, you know, because he carries the ah wisdom of that lineage. You know, he talks about how the plants really are the teachers and it's it's just access to knowledge that um We know that Indigenous um knowledge systems all over the world hold their connections to their local plant kin, as we know they do here on this continent.
00:46:10
Speaker
um But to see the wisdom of unbroken lineages of somebody who started from a child, who lives in the jungle, and, you know, as any ailment that comes up with anyone throughout their treatments, he knows exactly what plant to go out and have. So I think So for this trip in December, what people will see that's different, no um regardless, though they will have the ceremony with the medicines, but they will also start to be able to build these relationships through his teaching, but also that inner deep felt sense of building the relationship with um the plant they're dieting, which will be the Noyerau, the most incredible tree in the world or the most revered tree in the Shipibo lineage.
00:47:00
Speaker
i had I was just going to say I had the honor of spending a few weeks on data with Don Rono. ah prior to going up into the Andes this time. And ah yeah, just exactly what Gem was saying. It's the working with these other plants that aren't necessarily psychedelic, but um you know, ayahuasca is just the cherry on top, you know, from a Western perspective, they hear about, you know, this magic jungle juice that people want to go and have, but they, they totally disregard,
00:47:35
Speaker
every other plant, every other, um, compound. And, you know, it's not just about the, the science that that's, you know, the, the chemical compounds that are in these plants that, um, can,
00:47:50
Speaker
There's nothing that isn't solvable for these maestros and maestros that ah they know that there is a plant that can cure any dysfunction disorder disease.
00:48:02
Speaker
But it's not as simple as just extraction, which is a common Western ah mindset just to extract, take what they can from whatever they can, which What it's ah ultimately about is back to spirit, back to the sacredness of the work. But um they're able to to work with the spirit. And this is what it's teaching us. This is what it's reminding us. And hopefully these clinicians that go and experience, you know, how to truly hold space is they're not just great minds holding minds. It's actually spirit holding spirit and allowing these other things to come into place where the greatest healing can happen.
00:48:43
Speaker
in the greatest way possible.
00:48:48
Speaker
Beautiful Kurt, thank you for sharing. and And yeah, I think on science and on the training that Jem and I and Don Renere are all involved in you as well, Kurt, I think is also something that people can check out and I'll make sure I'll put a link in the show notes to that.
00:49:11
Speaker
sounds it sounds like a really ah amazing trip. How do people kind of sign up or find out more information? i yeah I'd love to share that. So our website is sacredroots.au and all of the information is up there. And I'm sure you'll share that in the show notes as well. But there was one other thing that felt really important that I'd love to share is And just to make really clear that you know our intention for taking therapists over is not to sort of you know insert these Indigenous traditions or you know that now you're going to learn those and now you come back and apply them in psychedelic assisted therapy here.
00:49:55
Speaker
you know We know it's not that straightforward, but what this work is about is you know we're at such a unique time in the field. And we're all having that conversation.
00:50:06
Speaker
And, you know, this is one of the most exciting things about taking a group of therapists over who are working in the space is really it's about generating conversations and learning together and all together discovering how do we bridge?
00:50:21
Speaker
You know, it's not that now we're just going to take different pieces and extract them from these different traditions, but actually what's the experience? What are the elements that are the most important here? Yeah. And where is the crossover?
00:50:33
Speaker
Where is it appropriate to, you know, bring in some of these different ways of being and ways of experiencing and ways of seeing and then finding and generating how we can do that in our lives?
Integrating Indigenous Wisdom with Western Science
00:50:48
Speaker
own really reverent and grounded way. So I just wanted to say that, you know, sort of that's one of the other most amazing things about these trips is that the the conversations and the the generative nature of bringing a group of therapists together, having these experiences.
00:51:06
Speaker
Thank you, Maylai. That's so important, isn't it? I feel like there's so many of those kinds of conversations happening. People are really trying to work out how to do this really well in so many different ways. And what incredible opportunity to not only to dive deep into that felt sense of working with ah with medicine and with indigenous traditions, but also then to come together as a group of people, of humans in this field who really want to do this well. And and and and how do we do that? You know, I've been talking to lots of people about this on the podcast, well, different types of humans.
00:51:41
Speaker
um different sometimes from different countries but mostly from australia because we are in this quite amazing exciting and at times nerve-wracking time where where i personally do feel the responsibility to really think about how we do this work as safely and as possible and with as much integrity as possible so and there's lots more i could say about that but i actually want to give the space to all of you because i can talk about that another time um Yeah, when we're coming towards the end of our time together. Probably got another five minutes, I think we can do. That's all right with everybody. um
00:52:18
Speaker
So is there any final points that and you would feel like you really would like to share before we wrap up today? I'm sure there's many, but and anything final to talk about? And I'll definitely put all the links in the show notes so people can easily find you.
00:52:37
Speaker
um maybe Maybe I would. Oh, you go, Carly. I'm just going to say one last thing to kind of sign off. And it's really, as everyone has been talking about, and I think.
00:52:50
Speaker
On balance in the PAT space, ah for me and and from listening to everyone here, it it feels similar. it's a Yeah, it's about bringing that Indigenous wisdom wisdom and Western science together and knowing really the first step in that is just starts with listening, really deep listening, dadidi-type listening, and just knowing also that these medicines...
00:53:15
Speaker
They're not just tools. As everyone has said um on this podcast, they're sacred. And we need to honour their lineage while also, and this is really important, building really culturally safe and trauma-informed um containers.
00:53:35
Speaker
Beautiful, Carly. Yeah, I completely agree with that. And i think the only thing that I'd like to add is that you know, these experiences, ultimately they are a deep human experience.
00:53:48
Speaker
and um And I think, you know, when we talk about Western models and things like that, we've got to remember that they're systems, you know, those those models and those frameworks are part of a system that can disconnect us from, you know, this deep innate knowing as um or yearning as humans. So, know,
00:54:08
Speaker
Yeah, and it really just um breaks down all those sort of barriers that, you know, can be put around us when we're navigating disconnected systems. So it really is that human experience and deep, deep ways to reconnect to country and to, you know, to each other.
00:54:30
Speaker
Beautiful, Jim. I completely agree. Thank you. Kurt, do you want to share anything before we wrap up? ah Just a similar kind of thing, but what I've reminded other spaces is to really create longevity and sustainability within this space. You need to be reminded of the sacredness of it. And, you know, science can be sacred too. If anything, it it is sacred and we need to truly honor that. And, you know, all sciences, even, you know, psychology is sacred. You know, the the work that
00:55:06
Speaker
um we do from the most clinical to the most down-to-earth back to indigenous ways that it's all sacred so to really acknowledge that and to continue to bring that in to the work into this field with integrity and it's what's going to really keep it going and we're going to start to see these results as we do tread lightly in both worlds we can bring it together in a way that it will harmonize it will be able to synchronize together because when we first started was like you know different worlds how can we work walk in this so i know it's like stepping in one place and then doing the other but it's it's starting to come together in a way that it can work and uh through taking certain clinicians and different people through
00:55:57
Speaker
these experiences then it's there's a marriage that's starting to happen that and there is a deeper understanding of what it takes to to truly hold space in the most integrous way thank you you know i was just thinking about and you know one of the first kind of I guess the first elders in the clinical psychedelic research space, if you want to call it that. I don't know if he would like to call it that.
00:56:27
Speaker
It was Bill Richardson. He was one of the first guests on my podcast. His book's called Sacred Knowledge. And so i i don't know. I'm just sitting here thinking, I think that the elders that started in in terms of the clinical space and the research space were holding that. And then it kind of got cut off at the knees, you know, when when things, the research was shut down. And it's so important to be bringing that perspective back i now. And it's obviously the Indigenous wisdom has been holding that for millennia. So thank you, everybody. It's been wonderful. I'm absolutely delighted that we managed to come together and have this conversation. and I'm so excited for you all um it to be going to Peru with Don Rolo in December. What an amazing experience. And then maybe you'll have to come back on and tell me all about it.
00:57:21
Speaker
If I can't come with you, maybe I will. time Come and join us as my. I would love to. I would love to. All right. Well, um thank you very much, everybody. And hope you all have a beautiful day. May Lies, do you want to finish off by saying anything or you?
00:57:38
Speaker
No, I mean that that we have the opportunity to to receive the Indigenous knowledge and wisdom and, you know, very much I'm here as in in the listening, as Carly said, and in the learning and the the privilege that it is to be to that. So, yeah.
00:57:57
Speaker
Beautiful.