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Sarah Pant: Psychotherapy approaches in Psychedelic Therapy
139 Plays8 days ago
In this episode I will be talking to Sarah Pant, a fellow psychedelic-assisted psychotherapist. We discuss - The importance of psychotherapy techniques in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, the sacredness of therapy, how vital human connection is for healing, therapeutic approaches used in preparation, dosing and integration, the wider cultural context of psychedelics and Indigenous practices, longer-term integration groups and the challenges of the dominant medical model of distress.
Sarah is a Clinical Psychotherapist with nearly 20 years of experience in mental health across Australia and the UK. At Monash University’s Clinical Psychedelic Lab, she was a core therapist and trainer in the world’s first trial looking at Psilocybin assisted psychotherapy for Generalised Anxiety trial and now serves as a clinical supervisor and therapist on the trial exploring MDMA -assisted psychotherapy for PTSD.
Sarah’s therapeutic approach weaves together somatic practices, creative arts, ecopsychotherapy, systems thinking, and process-oriented psychology. Her holistic perspective of health and well-being is deeply rooted in fostering human connection, exploring altered states of consciousness, enhancing our connection with the living world and navigating the unique challenges of our time.
Stay in touch with me at
insta: dresmedark
website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/
Fiind Sarah at:- https://beingfound.com.au/psychedelic-integration
find Monash Clinical Psychedelic Lab at - www.monash.edu/psychedelics
Book recommendations
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53121631-underland
https://www.aamindell.net/books-by-amy-and-arnold
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55384168-no-bad-parts?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=hM0AaWUrgS&rank=1
This podcast is for general information only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy.
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Beyond the Trip, a psychedelic therapy podcast with me, Dr. Esme Ta. During this podcast, I'll be bringing you conversations with thought leaders and other inspiring humans, exploring a wide variety of themes relating to the use of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy in the healing of human distress.
00:00:26
Speaker
Whether you're an aspiring therapist, already a therapist, or just simply interested in the emerging field of psychedelic therapy, then this podcast is for you. Join me for a journey into the psychedelic world. Before we get started, I want to take a moment to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the unceded land on which this podcast is recorded. The Wadda Wurrung people. I pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging.
00:00:54
Speaker
and I extend that respect to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.
00:01:03
Speaker
In this episode, I'm going to be talking with Sarah Pant, who is someone I've worked closely with at the Clinical Psychedelic Research Lab at Monash University. She is a fellow psychedelic-assisted psychotherapist. And in this conversation, we get into some depth about the psychotherapy aspects of our work and really talk about what we're actually doing in the room with our clients.
00:01:27
Speaker
We called for a long time, so this is a shortened version, and I may make the longer episode available on subscription at a later date. So shoot me a message if you think that's something you would be interested in. Sarah is a clinical psychotherapist with nearly 20 years of experience in mental health across Australia and the UK. At Monash University's clinical psychedelic lab, she was a core therapist and a trainer in the world's first trial looking at psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy.
00:01:56
Speaker
for generalised anxiety disorder. And she now serves as a clinical supervisor on the trial exploring MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD. Sarah's therapeutic approach weaves together somatic practices, creative arts, eco-psychotherapy, systems thinking, and process-orientated psychology.
00:02:16
Speaker
Her holistic perspective of health and wellbeing is deeply rooted in fostering human connection, exploring altered states of consciousness and enhancing our connection with the living well. So let's get into it. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Hey, Sarah, welcome to Beyond the Trip.
00:02:37
Speaker
Hi, Esme. It's nice to be here. It's lovely to see you. Yeah, so lovely. And thank you so much for agreeing to come and talk with me today. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I'll be looking forward to it for a while.
00:02:52
Speaker
And obviously, you and I know each other ah through our work. So we work together at Monash University on the trial for so when we were working with psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy to treat anxiety disorder. And actually, you and I have known each other kind of professionally before that as well. So it's been quite a long time. And I'm really excited to get into this topic with you today. Me too. Thanks for having me.
00:03:17
Speaker
the The conversation we're going to be having today is really about the the underpinning of why I decided to do this podcast in the first place. And we're going to be getting into a bit of detail about what is the psychotherapy part of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. There's a lot of talk in the media that focuses in on the dosing sessions with the medicine. And actually, you and I know from our work that it's a much more of a it's it's it's a psychotherapy process with medicine to enhance or deepen, or some people use the word augment that process. And so part of the whole reason for me starting beyond the trip was to kind of talk with all these interesting people about that. And you were one of the people I really wanted to speak to.
00:03:57
Speaker
I'm really delighted to to have this conversation. yeah I'm looking forward to it too. And it's just nice to have the time with you as well. I think there's something really, ah really wonderful for me to be able to connect with you with this time and this space and to explore this topic, which is, I think, really alive and interesting for us both.
00:04:15
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, how I came to be here is I guess there's a a little bit of a ah pattern in my be working life, maybe my life life too, I don't know, where I sort of get thrown in the deep end a bit with things. So, you know, to be in this work, I think,
00:04:32
Speaker
is a surprise to me from seven years ago. You know, i've I've been working as a therapist for almost two decades and in lots of different different programs or in private practice, lots of different environments, lots of different client groups. And I mean, I came into this work really by invitation somebody, one of our colleagues, um Sean O'Carroll said, you know, i'm I'm doing this work, would you be interested? And there was this part of me that just said yes.
00:05:00
Speaker
And I didn't really know what I was saying yes to, if I'm honest, you know, I, you know, I kind of knew the concept and you roughly what it was, but I psychedelic assisted therapy wasn't something that was on my radar. You know, really in Australia at that time, there was no opportunity to do it. So nobody was doing it. I'd heard of people sort of being interested in what was happening overseas. But that was the extent of my knowledge.
00:05:22
Speaker
And I remember coming into the, you know, the first trial that I joined and came into a training and everyone was talking about the books they'd read and, you know, this person, that person. And I sat there thinking, I don't know any of these people. I haven't read anything at all. Yeah. But I, but I guess there's a, you know, of course there's another story there. It's not like I just landed in this with absolutely no reason behind it. And I guess now I can look back and I can recognize what what perhaps led to that invitation, which is that my work had already been something that was very experiential, had a sense of journeying within it, you know, through various different programs or modalities and
00:06:08
Speaker
Yeah. And I guess exploring altered states, I'd worked a lot with people who were in altered states of various kinds. And even the modality that I use, it kind of has this further from consciousness exploration to it, which is like a ah slight altered state when you go into that place of the the parts you that don't make sense or that your brain can't make sense of or can't know.
00:06:31
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. And I think it, you know, maybe it will become clear as we go through our conversation today around the kind of ways that you and I work that I think both feel like quite a natural fit for this work as well. You know, the way that I work as ah as a therapist it is a lot about kind of getting people into into the their body and going quite deep into sometimes into states that feel a little bit altered anyway. And so we'll talk about that. What actually is psychedelic assisted psychotherapy? And so perhaps before we get into that in a little bit more detail, it might be helpful for me, just for anyone who's listening who isn't aware of the actual process, to just explain a little bit about the the flow of a psychedelic assisted psychotherapy
00:07:22
Speaker
kind of piece of work. And so just briefly, I'm not going to get into huge amounts of detail about this. But when we're working with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, we work with someone with for preparation sessions in our in the trials that we've worked on together, there's usually about three of those. And then we would do a dosing with psilocybin or MDMA or something, and another psychedelic medicine and then three integration sessions or two or three integration sessions after that. And then there's another dosing session. And then for us, there's another three integration sessions usually. And that can change and it depends, you know, what trial you're talking about or what kind of treatment clinic you're we' working with. And that I think it's a really, as we move into clinical use, one of the great things about that is we can really think a bit more than on a trial as well. Yeah. But we'll talk a bit about what those kind of stages are for, really, in a bit more detail later, but just so that people are aware, there's kind of those so three main phases of psychedelic acid psychotherapy.
00:08:29
Speaker
And that prep is really about getting somebody ready in preparation for the dosing session. And that sounds simple. And sometimes maybe some of those sessions might just be in some treatment arcs, quite kind of a lot of psychoeducation, but there's also a lot of other stuff that happens in that. And so that's kind of part of what I want to get into today. Like, what's this like a therapy part of prep and integration as well?
00:08:56
Speaker
oh Anything you want to add there, Sarah? Well, I think the structure is helpful. I mean, i think I think one of the things I've realized in the work in trials is how, you know, the way this is being talked about in the media, this work, can lead people to believe that this is a medicine that does a thing.
00:09:18
Speaker
yeah And of course, it is a medicine that does a thing. yeah But the thing is not, you know, it's like it's like it's not like Panadol. It's not like you have a headache and you take Panadol and it goes away. You know, although there can be elements of that. But I think this is where I find I'm really fascinated by the way this work meets with our kind of Western culture.
00:09:38
Speaker
and sort of the dominant culture and in Australia, and I know in you know in in other places too. But this idea that medicine is something you use to fix something else, but there's something wrong and you try and fix it. Now that has its place, don't get me wrong. you know You break your leg, you want it to heal up in a certain way and be supported in a certain way. But I think when it comes to you know someone's psyche, emotional health, their well-being, working with trauma,
00:10:04
Speaker
you know This medicine can go some way to do some of that, but there's a bit of a misunderstanding, I think, out there that you know this is about the medicine. This process, in my mind, is about connection, human beings.
00:10:20
Speaker
and that That is facilitated through therapy. You know, that healing is is facilitated through therapy. And the medicine supports and deepens and in some and in a lot of cases will accelerate that process. But it's not the medicine alone. This is not like we just kind of give them a little pat as they go off and then say, well, did it work or did it not? This is really a therapeutic process that is supported by a really incredible set of medicines that really open the doorway and to a lot of opportunities and possibilities. But the work of the therapy is bringing some understanding to that, grounding that
00:11:03
Speaker
Unfolding that sometimes it's it's confusing or doesn't make sense, you know and and also offering connection through that process that you know where we are beings of belonging we're community animals and and We're meant to be you know, we're not meant to be you know, healing alone is not, it it it misses a ah vital part of what it is to be human and what we really need. And and so that's, ah yeah, that feels very important to me in this work is that we don't miss the fact that the connection, the time, the facilitation, the therapy is the medicine, as much the medicine as the medicine, but you know, as the psychedelic medicine. Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And I think
00:11:48
Speaker
you know, it's so important what you were just speaking about, about the fact that we are relational beings. And, you know, so much of our suffering is caused by us experiencing distress and feeling alone with it. And so one of the things that I think is so powerful ah about psychotherapy in general, but but even more kind of in this work is that there are people that travel alongside you. yeah So psychotherapists that are there to be with you. If things get tough in the dosing session and to support you before and after and to help you to really meet with yourself but with support there and with that holding. And so that feels like a really important part of this process to me.
00:12:33
Speaker
Definitely. Well, and I noticed that a lot of the questions I get in certain circles about this work is how do we make it more cost effective? That that's the first how do we make this cheaper? Yeah. And I get I get where it comes from, you know, and I do I do think there's an important question about access, which is a whole conversation to itself and and really important, you know, and I think that and I and i they are ah conversations that we're having as you know, within the teams that we work in and that matter to us. However,
00:13:02
Speaker
That question about how can we make this cheaper when it comes to community work is, you know, the first thing really that comes to my mind is, well, what's the cost of reducing the cost? What are you actually losing here? And that to me is really important and especially within the medical system that You know really it's it's looking looking to as much as possible roll roll out solutions on mass you know with the start here take this in there and and again that has its place and i understand why it exists in that way but i think. You know there is a risk of saying well let's just make it cheaper we cut a bit of this kind of it and what you actually lose over time is the connection is the time is the honoring of someone's.
00:13:47
Speaker
in a process of healing, which is a complex process, and often coming from wounds that have happened you know either many years ago or over many years or both. you know And to think that we can just sort of fix that in a quick way, and what is, you know, time time is very, is is very varied depending on the person, I think, in terms of what healing looks like. It can happen fast, but it also, yeah, I'd i'd be I'd be very wary of reducing the human connection ah element and the facilitation and the therapy element. And then there's just that thing of like you know psychedelic experience and therapy itself. you know When you really go deep in therapy, there's just people doing the hardest stuff often that they ever have to do in their lives. you know They're facing the darkest, most awful parts of their experience or parts of themselves that they feel you know just
00:14:40
Speaker
unforgivable or whatever it might be. you know and And I think I've been reading this wonderful book who's written by ah you know an academic and ah and and he's also a mountaineer and a ah poet, really. and And I was thinking about mountaineering. You know, you wouldn't go mountaineering. I wouldn't go mountaineering.
00:14:58
Speaker
Even though I'm quite, you know, quite comfortable in nature, I'm quite comfortable going camping, things like that. I'm not going to go mountaineering really difficult terrain without knowing that I've got guides with me who understand that terrain, who know the signs of all the weather's changing here. We're going to make this decision or go this way, you know, in order to be safe in doing this. Let's let's put these things around us here. You know, i I wouldn't do that. That would that to me seems like I'd be putting myself in a really tricky position, you know.
00:15:28
Speaker
And I think it's the same with therapy, you know, like, this is these are these are extremely challenging places that people go and it's and it's confusing territory if you've not been there before. And and I think often it's territory people we all right, we all avoid these difficult places, this uncomfortable or distressing experience, you know, we all kind of don't want to go there. And so if we're having to go there, then You know, it's it's important to have people that understand that terrain and know how to navigate it. yeah And I'd also say that's true of like beautiful experience, yeah you know, like yeah really, really beautiful, blissful.
00:16:07
Speaker
A heart expanding experience that you can have on psychedelics can be equally overwhelming, yeah just in a really different way. And I think to have, again, people that understand those places that can support you to to to get a grasp of what it is and how to be there in a way that's not completely overwhelming, but that is actually supportive and connected and and transferable into life. you know and and And so for me, there's there's just such a value. There's so much value in therapy that I would ah feel very concerned actually if we tried to cut that out because it's cheaper.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And then, and forgive me for carrying on on this, track but I'm like, we're right on something. I'm so excited and like so you kind of passionate about it. just But I think, you know, if you look at mental health conditions across the board, there is this disconnection. There's a disconnection from self or experience or relationship or the world. you know and and And so how do we reconnect? And part of that is in relationship.
00:17:12
Speaker
You know, it's it's it is our natural inclination. It's the healthiest way of being, you know, you look at any of the statistics on isolation or on connection and and community and who, you know, who fares better. And I think we're also kind of starving for that in our in our culture. And we're we're heading further and further down the the road of disconnection in many ways. And I think and quicker, faster, more, more, more, you know, as opposed to let's slow this down. Let's really be together.
00:17:40
Speaker
Let's really notice the quality of that connection. And that that might be difficult at times, don't get me wrong. It can be hard for people to be in at times with themselves or with their therapist. But even that act of staying in that challenge is something quite profound, I think.
00:18:01
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. and I think i think you know so much of what psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy does is about helping people to connect more deeply to themselves and ah and and to others. And that's also what therapies should do. And it really, you know, the idea, the the thing, the clues in the phrase, like psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, and I think you're right, like, so much of the media has focused on the kind of medicine sessions or the dosing sessions that people have kind of lost
00:18:36
Speaker
There's not a solid understanding around the therapy part of it, I don't think, which is why we're here. yes and you know If I was to think about what we're doing in psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, we're accompanying someone on that journey of meeting with themselves, but also ah accompanying them on that journey of potentially often of of of then taking that out into the world to connect with the people around them.
00:19:02
Speaker
in and to kind of reconnect with nature, to reconnect with it with other people, important people in their lives. And that's what integration is all about in life. That's right. yeah get Yeah. And I think, you know, I think it's it's so, I really think access is an important issue and I'm definitely going to do a podcast where we talk about that. But I think we really do need to get clear about what it is that we would lose if we were to make it cheaper. Shall we go back a little bit sure into prep preparation psychotherapy sessions a little bit and get a little bit of kind of maybe go into a little bit of detail about what is the psychotherapy aspects of that those sessions.
00:19:46
Speaker
knowing that you and I already do it slightly differently and we've actually never sat in a room together because on the Monash trial obviously we have yeah a male and female dyad usually when you and I have never had the fortune to work together. I hope it happens at some point. I would love that. Me too, yeah. Yeah, yeah love that too. But what is it that we've been, what are we doing in preparation ready for the dosing?
00:20:10
Speaker
And I think it'll be really interesting to have this conversation and see what we're doing yeah similar or different, right? You know, I think there's a lot of, there's quite a bit of information out there about the general things that preparation sessions should do, which is to create yeah a a feeling of safety for the client and to help them to understand what the dosing sessions will be like. So there is a psycho education always.
00:20:37
Speaker
And from the moment, one of the most important things you're doing in any psychotherapy, and especially this, is you're creating safety in the relationship. So you're allowing the person to feel as safe as they can with you and ready for the dosing and with themselves. But I think, for if I talk, if I think more in depth around the modalities that I'm trained in and how I'm using them,
00:21:04
Speaker
Well, I guess as a somatic therapist where we kind of start with the body, one of the first things I'm doing when I meet someone is I'm tracking their body, tracking where they say how they're sitting. I'm tracking my own body's responses because as a somatic therapist and someone whose body is kind of a primary channel to use, yeah i I feel a lot in my body and I use that as information in the space.
00:21:28
Speaker
and to to kind of see how the client might be traveling or what they might what might be coming up for them. As in you name it directly, Esme? It depends. Yeah, it depends. It depends on the phase. So I would, if I had a strong feeling in my body, I may name it directly. I'm just, and like I felt like sometimes I might say I might get like I feel a lot of tightness in my stomach for someone. I might say something like, oh, I'm feeling a lot of tightness in my belly. it's Are you feeling that? And I think that ah you know can be useful, but sometimes I'm just using it to track kind of how I'm going and how they're going. I might not initially bring it up with them.
00:22:12
Speaker
But in in the initial prep sessions, I might get get them to notice where they feel different emotions in their body or how emotions might show up in their body. And that can be really tricky for a lot of people. Some people it's really easy. So again, I'm kind of looking at the different ways that I work and take tailoring it to the person sat in front of me.
00:22:32
Speaker
But I'm getting them to kind of see whether different emotions show up in their body. I might ask them to practice sitting with that just to see how they go with our support into going into some of those places, knowing that that it's likely or possible that some of the but some emotions will show up in their body during the dosing session. So I'm kind of getting into that kind of teaching space a little bit with that kind of giving them some skills that might be helpful in dosing.
00:22:59
Speaker
But probably as well as doing that, one of the most important things that we're doing is we're kind of getting to know them and them getting to know us too, and to feel safe and to kind of come up with a collaborative understanding of why they're here. What's them here? What's the reasons for their distress right now? What are they wanting to get out of this process?
00:23:23
Speaker
And you know in psychology, we have different words for that. We call it maybe like a formulation. And that can be quite different to the medical, moral, diagnostic label that someone might have when they come in. So a lot of people come in you know and they say that I'm here because I've got anxiety disorder in our trial, for example. But what I'm really interested in is is where that comes from. What are the reasons for that distress? And so we might start to explore a little bit of that in a gentle way that does go slowly you know and getting to know what that's like for them to grow and to try to understand some of those places.
00:24:04
Speaker
Yeah. And then the parts work kind of comes in, and I might be getting to know the ways that they protect themselves from the pain that they're feeling in their body, or their emotional distress. And and and what they're and we we like to craft our intentions for the process of the psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. So what do they want to get out of it? Yeah. And that's that's very much kind of an important part of the process as well.
00:24:26
Speaker
hmm yeah i don't know what about you that's a spot that's so much more i'd say very similar i'd say i'd say very similar yeah and i think this is the challenge right and again that question of like what actually happens yeah i think part of the challenge of of describing that is that there are so many facets to to the what is actually happening in the room it's quite yeah tricky to to kind of name all of them right and be in a concise way you know it's like yeah but yeah i mean all of that sounds very familiar i think that's very much what what i've done in my coat you know with my co-therapist
00:25:04
Speaker
I kind of think of it a bit like, a you know, that PrEP is is preparing for the outer journey, which is all of that sort of logistics. Okay, we're heading towards Dose Day. You're here. This is the rhythm of the the protocol, the treatment that you'll be going through. We'll be meeting at these frequencies and Dose Day will, you know, will look a bit like this and say, you know, what what do you know about psychedelics and how do you feel about it? Preparing, kind of practice, you know, it's all the practical stuff. It's it's like,
00:25:31
Speaker
When I worked in in the Bush Adventure Therapy or the Wilderness Therapy program, we'd do the same thing. you know We'd pack our bags and we'd make food and dehydrate it and we'd talk up a year, get up the map and be like, okay, this is where we'll be walking. and you know And so it's really similar in my mind. There's ah there's a sort of practical, almost logistical element to it. But it also includes things like psycho ed and and you know answering questions or making it less mysterious and supporting people to feel comfortable practically.
00:25:59
Speaker
and be ready as best they can. And then there's the the inner journey. you know there's the There's all those things you were naming about, well, what are you coming in with? and And that might be about supporting someone to feel they can land in the space in whatever way possible you know and feel safe enough to be there. And depending on what you're working with and who you're working with, what you're working with in terms of you know the client group, ah so a diagnostic, might mean that's a a little easier um or a lot more difficult. So obviously, people coming in with with ah trauma or complex trauma, that can be quite a process even to feel safe in in enough in a room with themselves and with people. you know It can be that that tender, that really you know really sort of It's tender and holding really gently and really carefully. And with other people, they come in, they're more comfortable, but they're still dealing with a lot inside that's brought them there. And so you know whatever supports that process, I think.
00:26:58
Speaker
And of course, you know, looking for, in a way, it is like the internal map, like you were describing. It's like, well, what is what's the territory here? And how ah might we begin to traverse that? Now, that's not all written. It's just like, I think it's a bit like this. yeah And again, depending on the client, it may be really useful to be sharing some of that with them or to sort of, some people find that really helpful and other people just aren't ready for it, or just don't find it that helpful. yeah And so it's it's just but being responsive as a therapist in that around like, well, is this, you know, for this person, what would be the most helpful? And sometimes it's really state based, you know, there might not even be heaps of words, they may not want to share a lot about the details of what they've experienced. Or, you know, it's more about
00:27:47
Speaker
I find that question of like, what if this were to go really well, what what might it be like for you at the other end? you know And getting a sense of the state that they're seeking, the internal state, what that might that be like? And even if there's no content around that, just wow, if I was free of this, so you know, just to begin to imagine that possibility, I think can be really useful because some often it's that that state can be really helpful as a in some ways as a practice, if that makes sense, you know, like as a yeah, yeah, practice to lead in. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that's a really that idea around state.
00:28:28
Speaker
space. And just really meeting someone where you're at, I think you used those words earlier, yeah meeting somebody they are at is so important. And I think we're part of the challenge of thinking, how do we describe the black box of therapy is that there's not, we're not doing the same thing every time, of course. That's right. And it really depends on for some people, you know, they'll be very that they have a really good idea of of what they want to work on. And for other people, that will take some support and some crafting and some reflecting. And we always encourage people, don't we, to journal outside of sessions and to reflect on the process that they're going through, if that feels like the right thing for them to know.
00:29:09
Speaker
Yeah and and and you know i guess the other thing with the cycle that we're doing is we were giving people some of the tools on way to help them navigate absolutely i say it's like when you go when you go hiking you know you take a map and you take you know you might take a compass yeah and we can't she give them a map to the cycle like journey as such but we can give them things like.
00:29:31
Speaker
tools to help them feel calm and regulated and that's gonna be different for everybody and so we might practice some of those in preparation as well to get them ready for dosing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot that happens, isn't there? There's a lot. And I feel like actually, you know, just to say as a caveat that we're not going to get through all of that information around really it all of the things that we're doing today either. Yeah. Because it there's just it depends on the person and that would be like a whole training course. Yeah, that's that's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really helpful just to name a few like we have been.
00:30:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I think so. And and that there's, you know, there's there's different levels to the experience that is happening. So again, there's, you know, so yes, there it might be, oh, I'm just overcome by this particular feeling all the time. And so then it might be a are settling that enough so that i can be ready enough you know yeah or it might be i need to tell you know i need to talk about my history and work a bit with this or parts work or you know any of these things we're naming and then there's these different levels to experience so it's sort of like what's happening in the room that is obvious.
00:30:43
Speaker
You know, like I imagine it if you watch Therapy Bag, you you know, you see you see what's obvious. But then there's this whole other level of experience of what's the atmosphere like. What does it feel like? You were talking about the fear. I work a lot with that too. I feel like I'm a real kind of, what's that? Like a weather vane kind of pick up on all the weather.
00:31:03
Speaker
in the room, you know, i'm thinking, oh, why am I feeling that? What is that about? But, you know, there's all that information in our bodies and in the space between us. and And it's much more tangible than it sounds, is the other thing, you know, like, I feel like there might be people listening that think, oh, this all sounds a little, but it's actually, it is much more tangible than that. And I i guess it's like, we've used the word tracking a bit, reminds me of tracking, you know, the tracking I hear in sort of ah Indigenous Australian cultures of trackers that can, you know, they they can see what's happened in the landscape. They've got a they can spot where a rabbits bean or a kangaroos bean or an or whatever it is, you know, like they've got this level of detail in
00:31:47
Speaker
observing and taking in the landscape and ah and and understanding how it's been formed in that way or why that is you know that particular branch is bent. And that is not magic, right? like That's not something, it's actually a really clearly defined skill. And I think that's also what we're talking about here is that we're tracking in a way that is very tangible. We're not sort of like just making this up, you know, there's like really tangible experiences happening in the room that we're taking note of and beginning to facilitate or kind of just noticing sometimes, you know, yeah it's we don't don't necessarily dive straight into facilitating because you've got to watch the pace of things too. But I think it's, you know, it's this really taking just noticing. no ah Okay, well, that's
00:32:33
Speaker
that's leaning that way, or that's feeling like that, or I wonder, I can see this thing here, but I don't know why it's there, but I know it's there. You know, so there's, there's a bit of a just noticing aspect to this, but it is a tangible skill. Yes, I agree. Not as mysterious as it might sound. No, exactly. And this is something that you and I have actually spoken about a bit, that the idea of tracking, and we've mentioned it a few times in this podcast. And, and I think that is one of the key skills for this work that I draw on all the time. And it's throughout the whole process. Me too. In preparation sessions, in dosing, which we can talk a little bit about in a moment, but and in integration. And and to give like a bit of a concrete example, you know, like a simple example might be when I asked about how school was for you, Sarah, I noticed that your shoulder moved that way to the right.
00:33:28
Speaker
And the time I mentioned that, your shoulder moves to the right. I'm just curious about what that that feels like for you. and And that might open up a whole conversation around why that is. All the person might be like, I have no idea that I was doing that. fine yeah And then that's this conversation. And that's just the simple example just to help people to understand a bit about what we mean. and So shall we move into a little bit of that? I feel like, and and to say, as I said before, we're not going to do every single, we're not going to do justice to all of the things that we do in these, in these different stages of psychedelic assisted therapy in a short podcast. But I think it's really useful to start to name some of these. And I'm finding it so interesting talking to you about it. So
00:34:14
Speaker
When we've done the preparation, and ah yeah I really like the hiking kind of analogy in terms of the practical things that we might support someone with. They're getting ready for their for their dosing, for their adventure, for their hike into their own body and their own soul or whatever word they want to use for that. and Then we go into dosing. I'm particularly interested to talk about what we are doing in dose day because often when I hear people talk about kind of making this cheaper. I've seen some recently some reports around just having someone different to the therapist sitting with the person in the dose room and not even. And so that felt a bit concerning to me and there's good reasons why that feels concerning to me. I think if we speak a bit about what we're doing in the dosing that will become a bit clearer.
00:35:07
Speaker
hey Would you like to start this one? What do you think? Yeah, sure. Well, where to start really, I'm just kind of reflecting on what do I what do i do. I mean, it's interesting because I've heard, you know, but if I come back to what but do what I do, I mean, I guess, I think the you know And even looking at, and again, it's limited knowledge that I have around the traditional uses of these medicines. But for again, from what I know about it, you know this these medicines are ah held, well, firstly, before I speak about that, I think it's important to acknowledge those lineages and that have been created over
00:35:47
Speaker
really thousands of years in many, many cultures around the world, indigenous cultures largely, and that they have been created within the cultural context, as in they're held by the stories, the myths, the ecosystem, the landscape, and the spiritual beliefs of those people.
00:36:12
Speaker
And I feel like that's important to mention because I think we are you know we are needing, and rightly so, needing to, one, honour and acknowledge those lineages and ah be humbled by them. You know, I think in the West, we have a sense of like, oh, well, we know, you know, we know a lot, which we do. We know a lot, but we know a lot from this, like, one perspective in a way. And there's all these other perspectives that are so important in this work, because these are experiences that take us to all of these aspects of being human, being in the world, being connected with nature or
00:36:54
Speaker
gods or whatever else it might take people to. And so so coming from just one viewpoint for me just feels like it's it's going to be very limited and very reductionist.
00:37:04
Speaker
So, yeah. So I feel like it's important to acknowledge those lineages and those people who have such a rich holding of these experiences. And so where I see this as being important is that we're in a culture that actually doesn't have those stories, doesn't have the the mythology, doesn't have this sort of spirituality or connection to these experiences in a way that supports, contains, makes sense of them. And so I think a consistent therapist can serve some of that. You create a a holding of this experience. you create a I hesitate to use the word ceremony because I don't know if we're fully formed in that way, but there is a ceremony, there is a sacredness. There's a sacredness to therapy. There is a sacredness to meeting someone in their raw estate. It brings tears to my eyes just talking about it. They really is. you know It feels like
00:38:05
Speaker
such sacred, sacred ground that we're walking on. And so I think there is something about really accompanying someone with that kind of humbling awe of this human that's in for unfolding in front of you and who is, you know, like traversing that mountain that they thought they might never, ever be able to climb. And I think that is something that I hold really, really precious within that space. And so and so i I feel like that's that's where, you know no matter what model, no matter how we do this, that if it comes from that place, then I feel like I'm interested in it. Because to me,
00:38:55
Speaker
I couldn't imagine asking someone to do that without really respecting what they're doing, you know, what we're asking them to do. So I feel like that the therapists in the room hold that through dosing, you know, and sometimes that is practical, you know, making sure people there's a practical sort of physical body element, making sure you have water and you know, you can get to the toilet or you can move and be comfortable or, you know, move with your discomfort or stretch or whatever people might want to do. And there's a very kind of basic human thing to it, you know, and I know a therapeutic touch has talked about a lot in in this work and the ethics of it and all of these things. And all I'll say about that is, you know, I think if you've got a sound consent process, then it is a really deeply human way of connecting.
00:39:47
Speaker
And so, and it's, you know, in a way, it's really simple. If there's the trust there, having that kind of, you know, someone holding your hand when you're scared yeah or when you are challenged or when you are going to places you've never been before, that to me feels so natural and so supportive. You know, so there's sort of simple, simple ways of supporting that happens in dose room. And then I think there's also There's something about like holding holding the presence, holding the atmosphere, holding the awareness of some things. um Often as a therapist, um yeah i I don't know about you as me, but I get a lot of information in my body, but I don't have a clue what's going on a lot of the time. You know, less people are very talkative and dosing. It can happen. But um that sometimes people say nothing and you just, you know, so I i guess i I go into quite a meditative state. I feel like I'm in
00:40:42
Speaker
In something of an altered state, you know I'm very present in the room, but i just I start to pay attention to the information that I can pick up on if there are no words. you know so Feelings in my body or a particular way someone might be moving or an expression on their face. or the atmosphere in the room. And just again, it comes back to that tracking, right? Like there's that sort of tracking process that I'm doing through that of like, what, what is this? What am I picking up in this landscape that, that someone's traversing right now that I'm accompanying them on? Yeah. And so it, it, and then other dose days, there's more kind of like muscular therapeutic work that might come into it if somebody needs it, which at times they do, but they don't always. So, so it's, I guess, moving between
00:41:30
Speaker
between these things, you know, chatting with people if they need it, sometimes really working with if they need it, and sometimes it's very sort of so simple awareness, tracking, presence, honouring, being responsive. Yeah, that's how I approach Doestay. Thank you. Thank you. And also thank you for naming the really important and honoring the really important piece around indigenous use of these medicines and all over the world and that actually when they use in that way, there is so many layers with which we can't and shouldn't be trying to
00:42:10
Speaker
replicate in psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. And that's what we'll be talking about today. And there's so much knowledge and wisdom from those spaces that that we can ideally hopefully one at some stages kind of learn from and work together, but also that we are not trying to replicate that. No, yeah. And and really acknowledging that this is that that is a very long history and a very important history. And like with roots down into the ground in which they walk, right? Like it's not, you can't sort of uproot that and try and plant it over here. It just doesn't... I mean, there are elements, right? And we can definitely learn from it and with the, you know, and as you say, collaborate and work with and integrate these ways of working and knowing and being. I think that is beautiful and important. But the idea of saying, oh, well, you know, I just think it doesn't. There's a translation piece. Yeah. There's a translation piece with deep respect for and Yeah. Any of those traditions, but it's it's got to be, we've got to, we've got to embed this within where we are and where we coming from and the reality of this place and time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I resonate a lot with what all of the things you were saying about dosing, you know, so sometimes it feels very meditative and it's all, you know, you're in deep presence with that person, with your co-therapist. So,
00:43:36
Speaker
yeah where we the way that you and I work, there are two therapists in the room, and usually a male or female lawyer, not always actually. And I feel like I'm sitting in presence with the client or the person in front of me, my own body, and I'm tracking my co-therapist as well.
00:43:55
Speaker
to see how they're going. And sometimes we're in there doing a lot, supporting someone if they're feeling stuck or they need that human kind of the connection. And other times they're way outside of the verbal. And yeah, I'm somatic and they're not even, they might not even be so aware of us in the room. Yes. Yeah.
00:44:15
Speaker
and And then we're really just sitting in that meditative space. And that idea of hi kind of co or kind of interpersonal grounding feels really important as well, that we might like take their hand, like you said, or put a hand on their shoulder. And one of the things I say a lot is that we are with you. that just ah We are here for you. Today is all about supporting you to have this experience and we're here with you. And so much of suffering, it wasn't like that for someone, they were left alone with their pain. yeah And if it gets tough, we're here. And if it's beautiful, we're here too. yeah Because that can also, like you were saying before, be such a, that can be such an important thing in terms of how to help someone hold all of that.
00:45:05
Speaker
Yeah, I'm feeling emotional now. true with i goingnna get this was really really oh yeah the will it but I think this is the truth of it, right? Like there's a part of me that feels a little shy about being emotional about it. But at the same time, this is the truth of it. Like this is the truth of being human. And this is there's something very I don't know. I feel something when you say we are with you. you know like yeah that is that you know that is There's something very moving about that and that is very much the role, right? Just to to be with. you know
00:45:41
Speaker
simplicity, beauty and complexity and i pain and awe and joy and bliss and distress and confusion. and you know i mean that that's That's life. That is being human. That is that is you know the truth of moving through the world for all of us. and Let's hope we never lose that, right? like Let's no hope we never lose that sense of being able to be with someone or have someone with us in those moments in our lives. like Yeah, that's it it's sort of so simple and so complex and and and really, yeah, yeah it is I find it really, it isn't it's an emotional, we are emotional beings, that's who we are. Yeah. And for a good reason, that is partly how we connect and how we work together and how we find our way through things, you know.
00:46:28
Speaker
Absolutely. so I think so much ah suffering comes from we have so many ways in which we protect ourselves from pain. And sometimes that means that we lose cut touch with those emotional parts of us that are really signals for how we could work for things that that we might want to do in the world or how we might want to connect or what doesn't feel okay.
00:46:50
Speaker
Yeah. And I think so much of this work is about reconnecting people to that. Yeah. And also the thing is, it's like once that healing happens, you know, like once somebody is able to work through that pain or distress or whatever it is they're carrying, like, it's like those feelings are the aliveness that have been that like, oh, I'm feeling again, and I'm feeling a range of things again, and I feel alive. Yeah. You know, if it's alive, and I feel connected to myself and the people around me, and to the world, you know, like, isn't that amazing? Like the sky is there, you know, whatever it is, there's this sort of
00:47:32
Speaker
beautiful wonder and awe at being alive and being in the world. and i think that's what you know that's what you We can carry on as we are, but we lose something if we if we're carrying on in that you know that sort of disconnected place. We're losing something. We're losing like the aliveness. We're losing the wonder and the joy and the awe of this incredible experience where we're having, you know? And so I think, yeah, I think the emotions are, you can't sort of, you can't not do them when it comes to this work. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's kind of making me think of something that I think is also really important.
00:48:15
Speaker
message that I but kind of want to convey about this work is that, you know, so much of our kind of general way of helping people with mental health issues or distress is about, can be about like medicating to kind of reduce symptoms or... Yes.
00:48:35
Speaker
so and And that has its place, don't get me wrong, but in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapies, the big feelings can come up, you know, in the dose. Also afterwards, as people start to get reconnected to their emotions, can feel it can feel big, it can feel like they haven't beaten those in those spaces for a long time. And it's also a really healthy part.
00:48:59
Speaker
of healing is to reconnect back to those emotional states. yes And so it can be quite surprising to the people around a person who's been through this that they might be more tearful or they might be experiencing great joy and then feeling sad. And that's actually a normal part of this process and it's a normal part of being human as well. It is, yeah, yeah it is.
00:49:20
Speaker
Yeah. Hmm. Should we talk a little bit about integration? Yeah. And aftermath. Yeah. And yeah, that because a little bit about a little bit about that tiny thing called integration. not there Right. And I think something that I would like what to say.
00:49:40
Speaker
I know it's gone a bit over time, but I'll just keep going. yeah that so yeah And so let's talk a little bit then about integration. And that one of the first things that comes up for me is that in this work, you know, it's healing is a long term process. And psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and any kind of psychotherapy in my he and and the healing takes place over long periods of time. And so, you know, in the trial that you and I worked on at Monash, we worked with people for around three months of kind of those face-to-face sessions, but very clear, we were very clear with people that this unfolding of this healing process doesn't stop when we finish working.
00:50:27
Speaker
that it happens over many, many months and sometimes years for people, that the dose, the dose, there's like a delicate experience and the therapy will continue to unfold after we finished. Yeah.
00:50:40
Speaker
know, if I think about, yeah, I think that that's a really important message. And so integration is often talked about as the thing that happens in the immediate aftermath. So you have an integration psychotherapy session the next day after your dosing, and then a few week or two after that, you have a few more. But it really does go for a lot longer than that. So yeah, what Where would you like to start helping about integration, Sarah? Such a big topic. Well, it is a big topic. I think there are different stages to integration. You know, integration is sort of like a catch-all word, but it actually is it's a journey unto itself.
00:51:21
Speaker
And I think there's a ah ah fairly kind of commonly known quote somewhere who I had no idea who first said it, but it's, you know, like the journey, the journey begins with the end of the medicine, you know, it's like you have your medicine journey and that's where your your journey really begins.
00:51:36
Speaker
Like it's the difference between it being like going on a nice holiday and saying, oh, that was amazing. you know And something that actually becomes part of how, you know, an experience that becomes part of how you are in the world in a really real, tangible way. yeah So I think that, you know, there's the first stage of integration is this sort of immediate, in the immediate aftermath of the journey.
00:52:03
Speaker
essentially like a ah sharing yeah sharing of what happened and what did you experience and what came up for you. Now that might be details of the dose or it might be things that then the dose has brought up in terms of relationship or myself or whatever else, my inner experience. So it's a little bit of a like gently kind of collecting those or excitedly sometimes collecting those experiences.
00:52:24
Speaker
and working with them. you know like what What was the most curious or what was the most mysterious or what are you most delighted by or what you know seems the most strange to you or confusing or disturbing or whatever it might be and and sort of seeing where the energy is within the experience.
00:52:45
Speaker
And look, a lot of people will have a lot of insight simply from the experience. So there might be a reporting on that too and celebrating that. And even an internal shift, you know, I think ah ah for a lot of people, and look, I've worked mainly with MDMA and with psilocybin and I would, and I think, you know, different medicines are a little different here, but I think both of those medicines do seem to have a you know physiological, they don't seem to, they've been studied to have a physiological impact as well. So there's sort of greater ability to be within within yourself in it in a way that feels calmer, more steady, more connected.
00:53:27
Speaker
And so that's a really optimal place for therapy too. you know One is that that just really being able to get to know that inner state, because that can be an incredible resource for somebody that hasn't had access to that or has never known that, to know what that feels like and to to practice it.
00:53:46
Speaker
And then also from that place, having being then the sort of facilitation of therapy becomes a lot easier because someone's able to be more present within them. So that's not just that sort of like bringing, sort of trying to support the nervous system to settle enough so that you can be in conversation, which can take you know months and months and months for people to do and in regular therapy. So there's this sort of beautiful place of of being able to facilitate change and insight and understanding. How we do that, again, it's so varied, you know? I mean, I think you're actually, as me sitting on Jung's red book, you are part of my little ah i makeshift desk for today. But I think sort of when I put it there, I thought, oh, that's nice, because this is, you know, like one of the sort of influences in a way, you know because because I think the psychedelic experience can often be like a dream.
00:54:40
Speaker
and ah Like a dream, there can be something really clear in it. Oh, that thing, right. Okay, I get what that's about. Or I revisited this moment, or I was in the presence of this person, or whatever it might be in that dream. And so psychedelics do that. And then they like dreams, they can also be really confusing or mystifying or narrative, you know, like, oh, I was here, and then I went there, and then this happened, you know, and and so i I actually feel like, you know, that Jungian dream work, you know, of unfolding a dream and looking at the different elements, and I've got need to say that's very different to those books you buy, you know, you can buy in a shop that says, if you dream about losing your teeth, it means this, you know, it's like, very different to that. This is about
00:55:24
Speaker
working with someone's individual experience of what meaning it has for them and and supporting them to um unfold that. So it's like unfolding means getting to know, getting inside, feeling the different parts of it, you know, seeing what associations you might make to it or what sort of theme runs through. So it will indicate your inner process. So what's like emerging in you.
00:55:48
Speaker
So I think some integration is like that. And then other integration, I think when people go through, say, a dramatic change from a psychedelic journey, there's this whole integration of like, oh, I was operating from this place in the world and now I'm here. I don't even know what that... So there can be that incredible sense of being lost.
00:56:08
Speaker
And i don't like I know more about me, and like this this feels more like me, but I don't know how me does this you know outside thing. So the integration might be supporting that transition, actually, supporting that. you know Well, how do you have that conversation from you rather than from you know whatever this was, the scaffolding that was holding you up before, you know the protectors, or however you want to name it?
00:56:34
Speaker
So there might be work like that. Yeah, there's so many. i'm know Yeah. i i what What else would you add? There's heaps. Yeah, I think that there's, you know, I really think what you were speaking about just then is a really So key for a lot of people, they have, not for everyone is different, of course, but if they have this big experience, they meet with this different part of themselves, they get to know themselves on a deeper level, or they process. Yeah.
00:57:05
Speaker
kind experiences from their life, but then they go back into their life as it was constructed before. Yes. and so which which Which can be quite challenging for people and we do, and I think we all name this and we talk about this with clients and people that we're working with and the integration, there's kind of, there's different, I almost see it like there's different so levels of integration on different layers. There's the stuff that a person does with themselves. So how do they stay close?
00:57:35
Speaker
to the experience that they've had and and to allow it to continue to unfold that involves staying close to it so kind of that might be speaking about it with their therapist and writing and journaling and meditating on aspects of it if that's their thing or just going out into nature or yeah whatever that looks like for them.
00:57:54
Speaker
But then there's how do they hold that with other people? How do they integrate their immediate family members with their communities in the world around them? And that is also really important and people can kind of, people's families can be quite shocked that, oh, this person is acting in ah in a way that feels a little bit different or the person themselves might feel like they're interacting in a way that feels different. And sometimes it can be hard to hold back new openness. And that ah people's the way that people have protected themselves in the past might start to come back. And so sometimes integration is just noticing that with a person. Yes. So much of that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And helping them to to maybe ah honoring those that the ways that they protect themselves before but helping them to work out today is is that something that needs to continue? And how do they
00:58:48
Speaker
allow those the ways they've protected themselves to kind of give them a little more space again. Does that make sense? Yeah. Definitely, definitely. Yes, there's so much of that. Yeah, there's this natural, and again, this is a term that is you've heard a lot oh this is a phrase I've heard a lot in in this work. is It doesn't come from me, but this expansion and contraction.
00:59:09
Speaker
you know And so part of the expansion is this, oh, this is more of who I am, what I am, what I'm doing in the world and all of this, and free of my, you know potentially free of or working through my pain or my suffering. And then there's the contraction of the reality and the way i you know these habits have formed over such a long time. They're going to come back often, usually.
00:59:35
Speaker
Yeah. And then it's like, that's not a failure. That's not it not working. That's just this sort of like, oh, OK, right. How do we now? Oh, that's that old thing again. And it might always come back. That's the other thing. I think you this idea of getting better.
00:59:50
Speaker
What does that mean? you know And it doesn't mean being free of experience completely. you know It doesn't mean being free of your trauma and that it's never painful. Of course, it's going to be painful if you think of something awful right that's happened to you that you've experienced, no matter how much you've worked through it. but And it's the same as is as these these sort of coping mechanisms. You're not necessarily free of them. They might come back. but Then it's like, oh, there they are. They're back again.
01:00:17
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And maybe I'll do them for a bit because they're familiar and it's like wearing, a you know, ah an old coat that I love that maybe doesn't suit me that well, but I'm going to keep doing it. And then and then it's going, well, actually, what was that other way? How do I?
01:00:33
Speaker
how do I pick up that that way that that other way that I learn and then, all right, I'm going to do that again. I think there's a lot of that in integration. And I think that's also part of that thing that takes time, right? Definitely. Yeah. yeah yeah And i I think that's where you know integration happens within a person, within a therapy, ti add so I add to that, within with the person and their therapists, but also out in the world with their family and with their community. And I think that one of the things that I hope we can grow in in Australia is is spaces where people can do integration in community. And I know... Yeah, yeah. you want to do What do you think about that?
01:01:18
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's interesting. because i was ah yeah yeah i mean i What do I think about that? so i think I think integration, people go through a natural kind of progression, I think, in therapy and also in integration, right? Where there's an immediate sort of internal work that's happening. And then as you say, it kind of goes to to family community life. And sometimes that can be bumpy yeah and challenging. And sometimes it can be wonderful. Like it it can be anything else. Like anything with psychedelics can be anywhere on the spectrum. But yeah, and then I and i also think there is this this desire. I think one of the main pieces of feedback we heard in the trials that we've done at Monash was people
01:02:05
Speaker
feeling quite alone in a way at the end of it because they didn't know other people that had had a similar experience. It was hard to talk about. They didn't always have the language for it and this longing for connection and this longing for being able to continue integrating with others because we are community animals funnily enough. you know So I think naturally community comes into it and connection comes into it at any point.
01:02:31
Speaker
yeah And so one thing that I've been thinking about a lot really is in Australia, you know, we don't really have the ecosystem around this work. You know, this is again, it comes back to that idea of in cultures where they've been working with psychedelics for a long time. There are a whole, you know, they have an ecosystem of support around these experiences to make sense of and continue to integrate and support the change and connection with the world you know from this other place. And so so we don't really have that. you know And there's more and more people in in Australia and I know around the world coming through trials and and legal clinical experiences within the community as well. And so one of the things I've been thinking about is, well, what's needed
01:03:15
Speaker
what's needed and there's a lot that's needed. But the one piece that that that i'm I'm picking up really is around this longer term integration and what might that look like. So I have ah my own business called Being Found and and so being found is is really becoming that.
01:03:30
Speaker
So offering connection points, so sharing circles where people can come and share their experience, share how they're integrating, share what's happening for them, whatever's alive really for them on the day that they come and with other people that have been through a similar experience and facilitated by therapists. It is different to therapy too and I don't I don't think people need to be necessarily in therapy their whole lives. you know I think as therapists, we're hoping that they don't need us anymore, ultimately. like That's that's the yeah the idea, right? We want you to be able to go out and live your lives. and and so This is not therapy. This is this is connection support facilitated and
01:04:09
Speaker
in so you know at At times, it it may also be sort of skill building. It's like, well, how how do I do that, or psycho ed, or whatever it is. so And again, integration can have a lot of different skills within it, such as mindfulness, or creative practice, or connection with nature, or ways of thinking, or journaling, or whatever. There's a whole heap of them. Movement is one. Music, all sorts of things. so And people will find their own way with it. you know There's no one one way.
01:04:37
Speaker
So being found will have these circles and it will also have a longer sort of a three month program that we're going to start next year that will support people to go through with a group. So a smaller group but that can get to know each other and stay in touch after the program if they'd like to. And really a deep dive into into all the different ways we might want to integrate and and then sharing with the group along along the way. So for me, that feels like a really important part of the ecosystem because I don't know it's again it's it's we're on this journey you know. We're on this journey of life. It doesn't end at the end of your last therapy session. you know what It's it's ah an ongoing process and I think really integrating means developing ways of being and practice you know practices that connect you to
01:05:26
Speaker
what you've learned, who you're becoming, who you are, what you are, how you want to be in the world in a consistent way so that you can continue to move from that place rather than the old place that got you so stuck or that was so difficult or so painful. Yeah, beautiful.
01:05:45
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. It's great to hear about that because, you know, when we were first working on our trial, there wasn't very many people coming out of trials. There wasn't very many trials, yeah working with psychedelic medicine, but now there are many in Australia. And also, the rescheduling is going to be more and more people who are able to access this medicine or this this psychotherapy with medicine kind of is going to be more and more people looking for that like longer term integration. So it's great to hear yeah that you are looking at offering some of that. Yeah. Well, I feel like I mean, I feel like people may well go back to psychologists, therapists, you know, that but that feels very different, you know, to meet with one person and and, ah you know, that's very different to being amongst people.
01:06:32
Speaker
and to sharing with people. and and you know Having peers on the journey, in a way, I think and is really supportive and really important for us yeah as human beings. you know This is not just necessarily a smooth journey and there might be beautiful points of celebrating a joy and joy.
01:06:50
Speaker
really wonder, but it's, yeah, acknowledging that, that any kind of transition and transformation is, you know, like it's but also uncomfortable and we need to be with others and we need to just be able to be in that, whatever that is and have a laugh about it sometimes or a cry about it or ah yeah whatever's there about it, you know, and that that's a really important thing that is to me different to going to a therapist.
01:07:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. i I agree. And I think it's also about having people to be with you in the wonder of it, too. Yes, yes. I be i mean, I remember a conversation with a participant that we had that that they really wanted to be able to share that with people who really. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so it's not and and and otherwise, it can feel a little bit lonely, you know, in that we can. And so yeah these places, these spaces are really important. And We're going to need them going forward, so it's great to see the horizon. Yeah, yeah it feels like this is a nice way to kind of close off the conversation, to think about longer term integration that feels like quite a natural space. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you really want to share before we wrap up for today?
01:08:09
Speaker
Just one thought, which is sort of this taking the mystery out of it, right? like yeah Or putting the mystery into it, maybe both. I just think this this sort of question about what is this black box of psychotherapy, what's actually happening there and why it's so difficult to answer. And I think you know our ways of measuring things and understanding things are quite reductionist, right? Like if you think of a trial, it's okay, well, let's have these elements, this presentation, we're trying to get as much consistency as we can. And it has its place, and I think it's useful. But I also think in a way, it's like,
01:08:52
Speaker
a totally different language to what's actually happening in the room. you know So we're trying to measure something that is in one language with, ah I don't know if language is the right, it's like trying to use a i think a hammer to to to cut a piece of wood. It's just yeah really confounding in a way. And I think this is this is probably this is probably a big reason as to why the therapy feels so mysterious. Because we're trying to reduce it down to, oh, okay, so you start there, you do this, that happens, then this and that's just not what we are. you know We're just not that. We are very complex living
01:09:36
Speaker
beings and so and I guess this is probably coming through in our conversation a lot you know this this really responsive multifaceted way of being and working that is necessary when you're talking about he you know being a human being and working with human beings and I and I think measuring that making it more sort of consistent or whatever it is. It's like there is consistency in what we're doing. But it's again, it's coming from this other way of being that is actually more in line, I think, with Indigenous ways of being, ways of working yeah with these things. And I think there's something really right in that, something where they really, really right in that. and i and i
01:10:29
Speaker
Yeah. and And so I guess that's something I've been wrestling with is like, well, how do we... Because ah it's a concern for me, you know, in Australia with the legalisation and people moving to clinical practice that they'll end within the medical system that we have and way of thinking that we have. And I can totally see how this is going to fit into that rather than that expanding into, you know, into a different way yeah from this experience. And so ah that feels important just to recognize that that's the task ahead in a way. And it's also the opportunity. And if I look, you know, like around the world and all the different things going on in the world and all the different challenges we're facing as a species and all that, you know, our kind of whole context
01:11:19
Speaker
Right now is calling us to that level of integration that level of responsiveness and not to work just from one point of view and one kind of like.
01:11:35
Speaker
kind of cultural way of being, but to look ah look at you know who what are we as a species? what are you know What does it mean to be human? And how do we rise to the challenges that we are faced with, whether that's individually or collectively? you know And and we need we need everything for that. We need everyone for that.
01:11:56
Speaker
We need all these different ways of being and knowing and working. And and so, I mean, that's my great hope. ah right That's my great hope. And that is what I strive for, because I feel like it's important for us not only in therapy, but just in the world in general.
01:12:12
Speaker
And I think it's a great risk that we just keep reverting to, oh, but this is our way of knowing, and so therefore we'll do this. And I think you know this work is just in incredibly humbling. yeah and i think yeah And I think anyone that's not humbled by it is is ah is probably too too much in a sense of you know knowing best or something. It's like, this is incredibly humbling.
01:12:37
Speaker
and we should be humbled by it over and over again and we should be shaped by it actually as therapists as well as by that humbling, you know. Yeah, absolutely.
01:12:47
Speaker
hey Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, my hope for this work is that it it as I really agree with what you're saying, that it kind of opens up the the the field of healing from distress into something that's so much wider than the reductionist approach that we have had in the dominant discourse around the medical model. And I think I really, it it feels like if you're really here and you're you're witnessing someone go through this process, you know, for thinking about the trial that we worked on and everybody had fit fit the criteria for generalized anxiety disorder, but they were all different humans.
01:13:26
Speaker
Every single day, but they all are so different and so of course it just makes so much sense to me that we need to approach it in a holistic way. Yes. I think we should start to draw to a close. But I just want to say yeah as well before that, you know, we've referenced a few different names and different topics. And I will in the show notes, I'll put some links to it some of Mendal's books and some books on IFRS and resources, people who are interested in finding out a bit more about those modalities, and also links where they can find some more information out about you and your new project.
01:14:06
Speaker
Thanks, Esme. No problem. Thank you so much. Thanks again, Sarah, for coming along today. ah Thanks for having me. It's been so wonderful. Yeah, I feel like I could keep going. And I'm sure that I hope that this is the first of several conversations that you and I will have about this work and so many more areas that I'd love to dive into.
01:14:25
Speaker
You know, there's things around self care for therapist practitioners. There's probably we could have talked even longer about longer term integration as well. It'd be nice to get more of that. But I think this is enough for today. So yes thank you so much. And I will speak to you again soon. Thank you. Thanks for listening. If you're interested in following along on the journey with me, check out my Instagram or website details listed in the show notes.
01:14:53
Speaker
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