Transcript
Speaker: Hello, and welcome to Beyond the Trip, a psychedelic therapy podcast with me, Dr. Esme Dark. During this podcast, I'll be bringing you conversations with thought leaders and other inspiring humans, exploring a wide variety of themes relating to the use of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy in the healing of human distress.
Speaker: Whether you're an aspiring therapist, already a therapist, or just simply interested in the emerging field of psychedelic therapy, then this podcast is for you. Join me for a journey into the psychedelic world.
Speaker: Before we get started, I want to take a moment to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the unceded land on which this podcast is recorded, the Wadawurrung people. I pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging.
Speaker: And I extend that respect any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.
Speaker: Hi everybody and welcome to this episode of Beyond the Trip podcast. Today I'm joined by a woman who needs very little introduction to those of you well versed in the psychedelic field.
Speaker: I'm delighted to say that I'm joined by Dr. Rosalind Watts. Been hoping to get Dr. Watts on the podcast for some time, so I'm really pleased to be able to bring you this conversation today.
Speaker: And for those who aren't aware so much of of Dr. Watts and her work, she's a clinical psychologist, a mother, and a nature lover. Her work as the clinical lead for Imperial College London's psilocybin trial has made her one of the most prominent voices and minds in the field of psychedelic research.
Speaker: Dr. Watts has been named as one of the 50 most influential people in psychedelics, as well as once one of the top 16 women shaping the future of psychedelics. What sets her apart is her focus on integration, harm reduction and inclusion in the psychedelic space.
Speaker: She builds tools and structures to foster connectedness after psychedelic experiences, finding inspiration for their design from nature. Through all of her work, her main learning has been that the safe and effective use of psychedelics requires substantial integration support.
Speaker: So as a result, she co-founded AESA, which stands for Accept, Connect, Embody, Restore. It's a global online integration community where participants follow a 13-month process together to connect more deeply to self, others, and nature.
Speaker: We cover a lot of ground in this podcast. um We discuss her early work in psychotic research, sustainable practice for psychotic therapists, something that you'll notice is a bit of a theme in these podcasts and something I'm really thinking a lot about at the moment.
Speaker: challenges in the psychedelic field, and the conflict between the medical model of distress and psychedelic work. We talk about the therapeutic power of nature, which is something that is i ah real passion of mine also.
Speaker: andrew we get into some more detail about her Acer community. So I'm delighted to bring this conversation to you today, and I hope that you enjoy listening as much as I enjoyed talking with Ross.
Speaker: Hey Ros, welcome to Beyond the Trip. Hi Esme, lovely to be here. It's so wonderful to have you here and you've been an inspiration to me and so many other therapists working in this, in the psychedelic space. And I've been kind of hoping to have you on the podcast for a while and really, really so honored to have you join us and to finally be having this conversation.
Speaker: Oh, that's lovely. Thank you. it's it's Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the conversation too. Yeah, totally. So, I mean, there's so many places that we could start, but, I mean, you can take this question wherever you want. So, you know, one of the, i guess when I first heard about you and your work, you were working on some of the big psychedelic trials at Imperial College in London,
Speaker: And so you were doing that for quite some time. And then now your focus has moved into that kind of all the longer term integration space and, you know, Acer integration.
Speaker: you want to tell us a bit about that journey starting from wherever you would like? It could even start before psychedelic world for you. i'm And tell us a bit about what's led you to this point.
Speaker: red pin Yeah, thank you. It's actually really nice to review now. and Now that it's been a while that I've been kind of, I see it as a kind of journey from, um in a way, the kind of structures of institutions to the forest.
Speaker: That's my own kind of way of seeing it and And actually, I was thinking about this the other day because there's a, I really love Shakespeare plays. And my my name actually comes from a Shakespeare play. My mum also loves Shakespeare plays.
Speaker: And ah the character Rosalind is from an play called As You Like It. yes And the character of Rosalind, so she and her father live in the court and then they are exiled to the forest, the forest of Arden.
Speaker: And there's this beautiful speech. It's this beautiful poetry. I think it begins like the second act and it's Rosalind's father. And he speaks, he's in the forest and he says to all of the people around him, which are people that have come with him from, that he used to work with in the court and his family.
Speaker: And he says, see if I can remember there. um i won't be able to remember it perfectly, but just, and it's very long, which a very abridged section. He says, now my co-mates and brothers in exile, it's very patriarchal, of course, but he means, brother he means yeah, now now my my friends,
Speaker: and is Is not this life more sweet than that of the perilous court? Because the court for him was quite perilous. It was full of ambition and um competition and power dynamics and money dynamics and um yeah kind of ruthless things.
Speaker: power structures essentially in extraction and all the things that we know that kind of corporate capitalist systems embody those kind of systems of dominance and which really aren't about the people in them it's about people getting co-op into those structures um And, and really good people work within those systems, but find themselves part of that culture.
Speaker: And so he says, you know, is this life not more sweet than that of the perilous court? And he says, here we find sermons in stones, books in the running brooks, tongues in trees and good in everything.
Speaker: and and I just that in a way has been the journey for me that I loved working in psychedelic therapy I loved sitting with people I love the beauty and the mystery of psychedelic work but it was still part of ah kind of corporate structure and the thinking about like the the company that was sponsoring the psilocybin and manufacturing the psilocybin and the kind of ethics and ethos and values of that kind of culture and and also academia. You know, it's a system of dominance and ah extreme competition and sometimes extraction, just the way academia works, it can be quite a kind of extractive system yeah alongside all the beautiful things about it and the brilliant things and the brilliant people that work there.
Speaker: So think it was about feeling that... the work, this beautiful work and the wonderful people doing this work and when it's part of that corporate um dominant hierarchical structure versus coming to the forest where there is this beauty of a more connected and more equal, more gentle i got way of doing things. And so Yeah, that's that's been the journey for me. And i'm I'm still in the forest, although I do take trips to them.
Speaker: I take trips trips back to the courts and I really enjoy it. like I love doing conferences and I like doing teaching and I like going back and a bit of research here and there. But ultimately, it's been finding the tongues in trees and the the sermons in stones and the the way this changes people and changes myself in our capacity to do the work.
Speaker: It's the nurturing for us as the practitioners, like without the the earth as like placenta, you know, the the one that feeds us. I felt my energy running out and I felt burnt out, exhausted and really utterly depleted in that old system.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. and This is such a, I like this so much in that. well I love that. Thank you for bringing some Shakespeare to the podcast. I think that's the first time. Yeah.
Speaker: chuck I love that play as well. but yeah But, you know, there's something very potent in that metaphor that really does fit your experience, your journey. It actually makes so much sense and how interesting that you are also a character named after a character from that play. That is something witchy in there.
Speaker: but think that But I think, you know, i and i I was actually listening to some other podcasts that you've done in preparation for this. And um um i think it was this ah maybe the Psychedelics Today one where you were talking about the pace that you did on the trial that you worked on at Imperial, the the second one where you were kind of dosing, know, a couple of times a week and seeing lots and lots of clients and and thinking about, and the reason I'm raising this is because obviously in Australia we're here, we're in the space of kind of rolling out this through these treatments in, you know,
Speaker: a medicalized model at the moment. And one of my big concerns as a practitioner in the space is like the idea of burnout and sustainability and how do we actually create a holding for this work and these medicines. And, you know, I worked on a big psilocybin trial here in Australia. It was about 18 months and dosing once a week and then doing prep and integration on the other day.
Speaker: And that was a lot. I can't imagine doing twice. I mean, feel like even that feels like, you know, yeah I don't know if if I was going to go and work in a clinic tomorrow, which i'm I don't know that I would want to be dosing somebody every week.
Speaker: You know, I think that's a lot, but I think that will be what people do and what maybe is expected. And I feel worried about that. and And there's probably a lot there, but that's something I just want to flag.
Speaker: oh I resonate so much with with all that you've shared there and I worry about it too. um And yeah, I think and it's this deep feeling of this whole pace of being so much of, it's not just about psychedelic psychedelics. Psychedelics amplifying the issues in the culture at large and yeah the sheer pace and the sheer kind of like that focused on, because when we think about why might companies want to go so fast, it's because of some kind of like, you know, some drive to either be the first or to get the, it's like whoever gets there first gets something rather than us all working together.
Speaker: So there's a lot of competition in the psychedelic space. i'm I used to really feel, Like when I first found psychedelics and I came from the national health service in the UK, which you'll know a lot about because you're from the UK and so you'll know all about the, the net, the NHS, which i actually completely love as an org as a system, as an organization. It's unfortunately been so deprived of funds now that it's, it's not really functioning anymore, which is really a tragedy, but the NHS ethos that i was kind of part of meant that I really,
Speaker: um yeah, had been part of very egalitarian, um, systems where people are really working together for really kind of wanting to help and wanting to do whatever's needed. And it's not a very glamorous place to work. It's not very well paid. The offices are very, there's no, never any windows.
Speaker: It's, know, you're, you're really kind of, but you're all struggling together because the ah the value is not about money or power or status. It's about being of service and you're working with other lovely people who want to be of service. So that's the joy. Um,
Speaker: And so I think when I came to the psychedelic world, i i thought, wow, these incredible gifts, these incredible practices, these so strong, we we can bring them into our systems of care and it's going to really amplify systems of care.
Speaker: and Assuming that the ethos would be at the heart of the work would be really around kind of the same thing of kind of communal service and and wanting to be helping people.
Speaker: and But then I was surprised in a way that the psychedelics field was so full of competition, um of narcissism, of kind of gold rush mentality. And it was so the opposite of what i had ah anticipated psychedelics would bring into our care systems.
Speaker: So I think those systems those values of like faster, better, bigger, more, be the first. um Yeah, but that value system is what is driving the fast-paced and competitive way of working rather than as a community saying,
Speaker: how do we all together need to do this so that it's beneficial to as many people in balance with indigenous people that brought the work in the first place and have held it is in balance with people's lives and their families. And, you know, so that we, the psychedelic therapists aren't completely having to neglect their own communities or lives because the pace of their job is so intense. Like how do we bring this in in a way that,
Speaker: It's really, truly sustainable and in balance. I think that I haven't seen that really happening, which is very sad to to see. i mean, it it may be happening in some places, but I think overall, the dominant the dominant way is not embodying those values.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. And it's kind of a it's a problem. Like you said, it's not just with psychedelics, but it's kind of across culture as, as, at large. And, you know, I would add add to that, I've spoken about this before and, you know, I'm, but I'm going to say again that, you know, the way that they rescheduled within Australia tied into the medical model and tied into psychiatric diagnosis and psychiatrists needing to be the one that prescribe and you know actually psychedelics, I think at their core, potentially turn that whole model on its head and potentially also capitalism, patriarchy, all of those things on its head.
Speaker: But I think we're struggling to allow that and because we're trying to put them into a system that is so tied into capitalism and the medical model of distress, which is the reason that I kind of burnt out in the NHS in the UK.
Speaker: um I really had amazing, I also have so much respect for the NHS and it gets such a ah lot of bad press. It's an amazing system. Now I live in Australia after growing up until I was 30 in the UK and I think, wow, we're so lucky in the UK to have that healthcare system and to have those values.
Speaker: um but it just doesn't have the nurturing and support that it needed and so that was and there's a whole story about my burnout that wasn't just about the nhs but it was i felt like i was being asked to do things outside of my value set which is how you burn out right yes he did that yes yes i love what you said about um that it feels like that psychedelics are trying to turn all that on it on that on its head and bringing in more care and more nurture and more like yeah like almost like reverse that hierarchy so there's more kind of nurture and care to the grassroots and the community rather than it just being concentrating power at the top of that kind of triangle which might be kind of psychiatry or the medical medical model but it kind of we want it to it wants to turn it around but
Speaker: but we're somehow not allowing it, we can't let it. And it's it's very frustrating because like you, having had those experiences of burnout, it's feeling so feeling in a really embodied way what we need because a burnout is, as as you say, it's when we're being asked to do something that is outside of our value set.
Speaker: and And it's also when we push so far that we feel like we, our bodies are screaming at us to learn a lesson. Like, it's like they they speak to you then they shout at you, then they kind of hit your hand ahead with a brick because, and it's like, so we feel in a really embodied way, what that learning is, like what, what our body's saying. And it's that thing about, you know, find the river, find the trees, like listen, listen to nature, listen to,
Speaker: who we are at our core and, and we're really struggling to bring that in and allow that it's, it's a hard thing. it's a hard thing to see and to sit with.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely, isn't it? um Yes, and I feel like even the way that they rescheduled in Australia has actually ended up being a slower rollout than they had initially thought, but and then they you know then i made the announcement and then it was kind of coming in quite a short space of time and that even felt like I think all of us were quite surprised how quickly they wanting to roll it out. So that's even from the sort of regulatory side of things.
Speaker: yeah Reality is that it has actually been a much slower process, which I think is really healthy and good and allows us a bit of space to kind of i'm just take it a little slower, you know.
Speaker: And that kind of, brings me to this, the, I mean, maybe we'll get much more into kind of Acer and why you decided to develop that program a little bit later, but you know, what do you think, because I think that'd be really important and I've got lots to say about it, having recently joined myself.
Speaker: So I can't wait to get into that part of the chats. Um, But, you know, coming back to the the Australian kind of system, you know, we're just beginning the clinical use here, as you know, and we're working with psychotelic-assisted therapy with MDMA for PTSD and then also psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy for depression.
Speaker: And what do you think, is there a particular ways of being or modalities of therapy that you think would be helpful for people who are just starting out in this work to to learn? Because lot of people listening to is a therapist. So you've been around the tracks. You have done this work for a while now.
Speaker: And I think it's really useful for people to hear from you like what your reflections are on that. Oh, thank you. You know, I don't know if I have many useful reflections in a sense, because I suppose it's quite, I feel quite far away from my kind of clinical psychology world now, in the sense that when I was as clinical psychologist in the, in the National Health Service, I was, you know, training in different modalities and thinking a lot about different models and their strengths. And, um, but since that time, I suppose I've ah become more and more interested in
Speaker: nature as a teacher and nature connection and I suppose if you're thinking about ways of being then certainly nature connection developing some skills supporting people with preparation and integration with nature as a as a landscape either real or imaginary and nature is a holding space nature is a terrain holds the you know the deep dark mountains of terror and the beautiful green fields of you know wonder and like there's so many metaphors and there's so many ways that nature can be a brilliant holding metaphor and an actual place um but i would say in terms of kind of psych psychology models i mean i know that at the moment ifs is very popular and it obviously the you know internal family systems really lends itself to psychedelic work um and also i think um
Speaker: I think actually nonviolent communication um his is really powerful. And this is less, I suppose, in the work with clients, with patients and more working within the structures, like as we've been talking about till now, like those structures that are based on an ethos.
Speaker: which some of us must may feel are antithetical to the values that we would like psychedelics to bring into our world. So, um, when you're working in a kind of fast paced organization where power structures are kind of dominant hierarchies and where there is a sense of competition and when there is all of those things, um,
Speaker: When you're working in those structures, I think it's really important to be able to hold true to your values and have some very difficult conversations and nonviolent communication. I really wish I had, I mean, I had the book, it was on my shelf, but I have to say, and I'd probably read it, but like whilst I was the courts, in the courts.
Speaker: I found myself getting very angry and i sometimes just felt so enraged by things that I would just burst tears and I felt like I was trying to verbalize something that felt like it was so deep within me. It felt like it had come through the line of women in my family. It was like an intergenerational, core, desperate pain at the kind of inequality, patriarchal oppression, white supremacy, the oppression from dominant systems of like the extraction from Dominant Systems, and it felt so in my bones, this like deep sadness about it, but I couldn't verbalize it. Like I'd be talking about a particular issue and this like emotion would rise through me and I would just kind of erupt into like, this is all so unfair and wrong. And I couldn't.
Speaker: So I think if I not just had the book on my shelf and read it once, but actually done some training in nonviolent communication, I might have been able to say, i feel i need, and this is my request. which would have been much more effective than just like crying at the state of the world, which people don't know how to respond to.
Speaker: Unsurprisingly. Yeah. I mean, there's a place for crying at the state of the world, right? But maybe I i know I i really, think there's something really important in that. i think the world would be a lot better if more people were able to use those things. But also that sometimes maybe it is okay to have an outburst like that and for people to be able to to hear it and hold it. Yeah.
Speaker: But, you know, think what you're speaking to is that as well is that this kind of work brings up so much. You know, if I think about like myself and and and the kind of feelings that have come up in me during this work and in the teams I work in, i feel really fortunate that I've had some amazing experiences in in the teams that I've worked in with the people I've worked with.
Speaker: And all of my stuff has come up and in ways that I was kind of not expecting. And it's taken I think it's taken me quite a long time of kind of thinking and being curious about that. And you see it all over the psychedelic space. There's a lot of intensity. You know, people do really care, I guess. A lot of people come into this, you know, there is a clash. There is people trying to make money and the gold rush and all of those things. But there is a lot of people who are here because we see the potential for supporting humans in distress and we want to help, right?
Speaker: And then something happens and all people's parts get triggered. i I definitely use IFS a lot. i ah But yeah, I think I wonder what the answer is in helping people. I've wondered in helping systems to kind of work through some of this. And I think nonviolent communication is a great way.
Speaker: a great I haven't even thought about that, but it's really, you know, it's a part of it and good supervision and good team support. Yes. Yes. yeah and And maybe also something around um understanding group dynamics. I think yeah I really love the... and Is it Adam Curtis? my i i I'm in menopause, so I keep forgetting things. So I'm, yeah, I keep forgetting the names of people. I'm just like, what?
Speaker: I think Adam Curtis is the filmmaker, right? Yes, documentary maker, Adam mc Curtis. Yes, think he is. Yes, his documentary, The Century of the Self, I have found to be so instructive. I don't know if you've seen it, Esme, The Century of the Self. No, I haven't. It's watching it down really worth watching.
Speaker: It's um many hours long in different parts. It's on YouTube, I think. And essentially what he talks about is how
Speaker: after the Second World War, there was sense of the destructive power of groups of people, of groupthink, of how destructive. This was in a kind of Freudian narrative because it was actually the nephew of Freud that was developing this idea.
Speaker: So Freud's nephew developed this sense of how Groups are dangerous because our id forces, so Freud's concept of the drives within those animal hungers, get kind of activated and groups become kind of amoral and and There was this sense of how like how do we how do we stop that happening again?
Speaker: the idea was quite quitec concertedly consumerism. um Let's separate people from each other, give them the things they need, satisfy their their hungers, their urges.
Speaker: mollify them, give them washing machines and TV and all the mod cons of life and keep them separate from each other in their little boxes. And this way people will be, you know, instead of like wild animals in the great big stampede of like, of, of kind of cruelty, humans will be more like kind of cats instead of lions, you know, there'll be like nice house cats domesticated.
Speaker: And obviously we see that the costs of that have been the numbing, the disconnection, ah consumerism and the impact of the planet, you know, technology and that impact on our lack of empathy for people in different groups than us.
Speaker: um and polarization all of those things it's obviously been very very um unsuccessful but what it I think what it means to me is that we have not developed skills for how to be together in big groups in a way that is towards wholeness and good we've we've got this kind of fear of big groups and I think there's fear of cults there's fear of um high control groups and there's this sense of like big groups of people can be dangerous and the thing is that we have to find ways, I think, to learn the art of being in communities that function and don't split off into shadow in order for, like you say, you know, thinking about how can we how can we manage this? it's like, I think even as psychedelic therapists, it's about working with individuals, but it's also thinking about group dynamics because we might have some of the skills and the training that can help
Speaker: us all learn how to come back together in communities and not dissolve into fracture. Yes, because if you think about where we are in the world right now, you know, that that actually consumerism and and and social media has umma has led to that polarization groupthink in a way that is probably what they were trying to avoid, right? It's kind of gone back around.
Speaker: Yes, as it so often does. Yeah, yeah. And I do, you know, I think... know, a lot of like my work has been in in psychedelics has been working with individual clients or like in session. But like, I think it's so important to look at the systems around not just the staff, but also the wider systems of, you know, healthcare, government structures. And how can we look at sort of potential for these medicines in supporting those spaces? And what do they need for that to work?
Speaker: you know, for them actually to to be something that maybe like affects polarization in a positive way, like brings people together. i don't know that we have the answers to that yet. I mean, maybe you have more than me, but I've been looking into this because it's something I'm really interested in and there's bits of research, but I know at my ah pool that night's view is thinking of doing, trying to do some research into polarization.
Speaker: but And I know, you know, Natalie Ginsberg's been on the podcast to talk about that trial that she did, and yeah that's that project that she did around ayahuasca with a group of people. And I know there's people, but I don't know if we have, I don't know.
Speaker: What do you think? sure i I think we've been, well, I think i was brought up, you know, I was brought up um going shopping as a pastime.
Speaker: I used to go with my friends to the... and shops on a Saturday. That's what we did as our like hobby. We used to go to the shopping center. and We used to watch a lot of TV. and I grew up in a culture where people would drink alcohol as their pastime.
Speaker: So it's kind of shopping, drinking alcohol and TV. That was like the dominant culture that I was brought in. And it's probably my experience of going clubbing actually because I was so I'm now 43 so I just caught the tail end of the kind of like clubbing time and it was that was my first insight into and a group of people who all moved into an altered state of consciousness through the music, through the connection, with an ethos of mutual care and support.
Speaker: and And, you know, sometimes these kind of like, that you know, i was just at the tail end of those kind of things where they would actually be in forests and kind of not even within like, you know, the kind of free free parties, free raves, things like that.
Speaker: and And think that gave me an insight. And so, but I didn't really know what to do with it because ah hadn't grown up with with that as something that was valued it was stigmatized you know it was like I was supposed to not go to those things so I don't feel that we've had or certainly I haven't had in my life and I think it's the same for many of my peers the training in the skills of connectedness connecting to self connecting to others connecting to nature interconnectedness it's a whole set of training that I didn't have and so yeah it's no wonder that
Speaker: in in kind of Western settings when we when we're trying to, like, we we don't have the connectedness skillset because we have been taught the opposite, the disconnection of numbing and TV and alcohol and, you know, all of that stuff. So ah suppose in a way, in order to know, you have to even think about finding answers, and there are people who have been brought up with the training for that.
Speaker: Indigenous people often have been brought up along a sense of connectedness to um to land, to ancestors, have really good social technologies for sitting in circle, for elders.
Speaker: There's a whole set of practices and tools. and Maybe that's one way to kind of think about it and learn from it. But I think it's also a generational thing. And that I hope, I really hope that the next generation will, that we will find ways to equip that next generation with at least a reset enough And to change the value system so that rather than stigmatizing and collective states of ecstasy and connection to nature and activism, that those things will at least now be, we will at least recognize that those things are important and that maybe that generation can grow up with those skills.
Speaker: And from that, the answers will come from a deep embodied way because they will have they will have grown up knowing that they don't want to do shopping, they don't want to drink alcohol, they don't want to, you know, watch TV all the time. They they want to plant trees. And I mean, maybe it's totally idealistic, but I just, I'm just hoping that it might be, that it might change that way.
Speaker: Yes. You know, you and i grew up in the same country and at the same age, pretty much. I'm 42. Yeah. And I was listening to you talking bigger. Yeah, I did that too. Like I went to the shops with my friends and I watched a lot of TV and ah alcohol is a huge thing. and It's also huge in in Australia as well, that kind of numbing.
Speaker: i'm and you know, I was thinking, set circling us back to that question that was asking a while ago about like, what are the particular ways of being that you think are important? And I think you're kind of answering it. It's like, it's like how to, how, like, if you're going to be supporting people in this work to sit with kind of thinking about interconnectedness, thinking sitting with the body, sitting with self and being, there's something really important about for therapists, but also but for the world around like learning how to sit with our own pain and discomfort.
Speaker: And then also to to have those hard conversations in those team spaces, it's difficult. you know i I don't think there are many people who've managed to do it really smoothly in in terms of um nonviolent communication.
Speaker: i I think you can learn it, but sometimes it's going to be bumpy and it's okay to be bumpy and human and, and yeah and be a bit messy as well. Like I think, I think we would all learn from that.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. I think that like the messiness is, is really important and just remembering that we come back. Like I was um analyzing transcripts yesterday of and participants in ASA who have talked to me, of like shared with me about their experiences of the program or a particular tree, a particular theme.
Speaker: And one of the things that many of them say is about how, and you know, we have the framework of what we're working with, but we deviate from it all the time. But we just, we just remember to come back. We, it's like forgiving ourselves when we,
Speaker: and don't, you know, I often, like, it's like, I know that TV is numbing and it's bad for me, but sometimes I will just need it, you know, because I'm in the system that I'm in and sometimes I'm like, I i just need half an hour of numbing, so I'm just going to do it. i mean But, yeah like, yeah, we, we but but coming back to like, because I think the thing about those, um having the difficult session conversations, as you said, and also sitting with pain is,
Speaker: It's like, it's so easy to avoid those things. So yeah like the avoidance I think is, is, is the thing. It's so avoidance is so, it's so easy to avoid pain and it's so easy for to avoid difficult conversations and have it be totally culturally sanctioned to do so. And it's like, don't upset the status quo. And it's,
Speaker: and it's really hard to even find ways to sit with pain and to have difficult conversations because those are the things that are still stigmatized rather than... So when we can just switch off and when there is a culture around...
Speaker: almost like politeness of like, let's not talk about the difficult things. Or if there's something controversial, let's just ignore rather than engage with it. think, yeah, that is, you're talking about like psychedelics wanting to kind of flip the culture. And if I would just love to see culture where there was more of a sense of like, let's all get together and talk this thing out without like there's a challenge, there's a dilemma, there's a there's an ethical dilemma, there's a difference in the system here that needs to be worked through.
Speaker: Because of course, that we all have our different priorities. And I think there is a huge thing about self-sacrifice as well, because we've all grown up in very, well, that the what we're talking about having had the same kind of and upbringings in the same country and Like there's a lot of privilege and there's a lot of ease that comes with that.
Speaker: Yes. And I think in order for us to do you flip, flip the thing, change the paradigm, it basically ends up with there being a huge amount of self-sacrifice that we each have to make in order to do that, because it means that we have to let go of privileges, let go of comforts in various different ways and not do the things that we want to do and do the things that we don't want to do.
Speaker: So i would love it if we could, if by doing that, we could find our way to a place where there was just more capacity for the difficult stuff and just realizing that the comfort we are in feels comfy, but it's going to it's killing us and it's killing everything.
Speaker: So it's like, let's, find a way to do the difficult stuff. But in order to do that, the only way I can imagine doing it and the thing that all of the participants in ASA say is, we can hold this, we can do this, but we have to be connected to each other and connected to nature.
Speaker: When we have that connection to community and to nature, we can absolutely hold the difficult conversations and the difficult emotions without those things we absolutely can't. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. That's really important. And I think, well, let's let's get more into that in a moment because I'd like to like maybe outline Asa a little bit in just a second. But, you know, i just i was just sitting here thinking, yeah, you know, like in my in my life, if I think about like, you know, working to reduce polarization is hugely important to me. And I've worked in a lot of spaces where that's been like I worked in human rights, mental health and refugee mental health before this. And so, you know, ah but however, and so it's really important to It's something I think about a lot and I talk about a lot, but when it gets really personal, it gets really hard, you know, like but I have friends who maybe, maybe we're leaning more in towards supporting certain American presidents that like Trump. Right. And and so i really,
Speaker: really find it hard to say why I like to be really honest about why I don't feel that way and you know because all of my stuff comes up about my own experience of a kind of intergenerational trauma from patriarchy you know and really personal trauma relating to that And so I really, but I tried really hard with this one, with one friend and I think it was super uncomfortable. We got there eventually, but there's been many other times where I just either have done what you said, like get real angry and cried or actually just avoided of the conversation because I don't have the energy, you know, that's actually really against how I am trying to be in the world, but it also sometimes that's, that's the path I chose, you know.
Speaker: It's hard. And I think that community spaces is so important and having people who you can go, okay, I've got you. Like I'm with you. Even if we don't think exactly the same, because we're never going to have exactly the same life experience or opinions, just totally fine as well. And the the me too because, because as you're describing that, I think, yes, me too. i have also, you know, responded in ways that I really don't think are the right way to respond. I have either shut down because I didn't have the energy or I have exploded.
Speaker: And like that brilliant thing you did with your friend with the with the Trump thing, having that, taking the time and energy to get there is ma is is amazing. Like that's the gold. Yeah.
Speaker: So much richness comes, it takes so much time. It's such an investment, you know, you have to like, you're like, okay, this is going to take many hours. What do I have to sacrifice in my life? How is my family going to suffer? Or how is my, you know, how am going to have to not do that project with work? Because I'm going to need this much time, headspace, processing, crying.
Speaker: educating educating myself, you know, these things that you need the space around it. Otherwise they just, you know, explode into flames or dissolve into ice. You know, it's like, yeah but but when you have a community of other people who are also the same, it's like me too. You share your times when you, you did it, you shut down, we got angry and you come back to the intention of connection and, yes and, and you,
Speaker: Every time you have those sharings, you realize it's okay to not be perfect at it. We we haven't been taught how to do it. We're trying to teach ourselves. We're trying to learn. And that in itself, having the intention to learn is, i think, a brilliant thing. And it means that people who have very different political opinions consist in the same space because we're not saying you have to think this way or that way. You're saying what brings us together is a shared commitment to learning, listening, communicating across difference, and ultimately understanding that we are all connected, we are all in this together and that like there is no other way other than those conversations, those very difficult conversations.
Speaker: Yeah, thank you. And that actually brings us beautifully into talking a little bit more about the Acer community space, because not everyone listening to this will have would have heard of it.
Speaker: I don't think Ros, so so many will, but Marie, if you want to outline the program a little bit and um I can say a bit about my experience on it too, if you like. Yeah, I'd love to hear your experience. So yeah, that would be brilliant.
Speaker: um Well, I suppose, and also maybe your definition of it too, because in a way it's like defined by everybody that's in it in a different way. um There is no one way of participating in it because we have so many different people that do it for different reasons in different ways.
Speaker: So it's essentially, it's an online community, which I even, I'm like, oh, on online community. There's like, it's a lovely online community, but I like there are issues with online communities as well in the sense that, um because you know, we are on your laptop. So like there is, it's, we're developing more in-person elements as well, where people are meeting up and traveling to see each other and doing more like local events. But essentially it's an online community, which means that we connect with people all over the world.
Speaker: Um, and it's open to, it's open to anyone because really it's about developing our connectedness to each other, to ourself and to, um, the wider world to nature and the wider world.
Speaker: And so that's really what we're trying to do is that kind of connectedness training. Um, but really the people it's for is anyone that's had ah experience of an altered state.
Speaker: So lot of people come because they've had psychedelic journeys. Many of our people are therapists so that they're both participants in psychedelic journeys and facilitators at the same time. and But we also have people that haven't had psychedelic experiences, but they have had some sense of what it means to dive down beneath everyday thinking and go into those deep parts of ourselves that are sometimes very challenging, having to feel all the feelings.
Speaker: And we we talk about it as like the pearl dive. So you're like normal everyday consciousness is like swimming against the waves, thinking about what you've got to do, love you know, just getting by, watching TV, you know, like there's no judgment of that way. Like that is like the way that we live in our culture. That's like the conventional way.
Speaker: But ah an altered state decision to have a journey into an altered state is a decision. It's quite a brave one. to dive down beneath those waves of like having, having to swim against those waves, like constant waves of like stuff you've got to do, family responsibilities, work, getting enough money, dealing with health issues of you, yourself and loved ones. Like it's a lot to be swimming against those waves. And it's a big thing to dive down, believe. And it's in a way a privileged position too, but for whatever reason, people have had the support to or need dive down, go down to the murky waters at the base,
Speaker: swim around and find those kind of spiky oysters which is like the big the big things in our lives that need us to look at them the big traumas or just the things that are like they're there underneath and if we don't look at them that they're there they kind of they affect our behavior without us even know because we're swimming it on the surface but there are these big things underneath that kind of pull us down you go to those oysters and You unpack them and then you find the pearl, which is like the insight, the lesson in the pain. Essentially, when you sit with the pain long enough, it teaches you like we learn from our burnouts about our values. And actually, burnout is also ah a state an altered state of consciousness. It's also a deep dive.
Speaker: So burnout is a deep dive. Grief, the loss of a loved one is a deep dive. and Just living in the culture that we're in, which is a kind of psychedelic bad trip in many ways, you know it's kind of scary.
Speaker: Just being alive and being open to what's happening, having your eyes open about the the the state of ecocide and genocide, like that in itself is an altered state of consciousness. like It leads to intense g grief.
Speaker: So it's really anyone that's had that time to dive down and wants to meet with other people to do sharing circles, journey, like not psychedelic journeys, but like meditation journeys, guided imagery journeys. We do breath work and it's very flexible. People can like do as much or as little as they like, but it's essentially once you found the pearl, and rather than just sticking it in a drawer and forgetting about it it's like plant it as a seed, see where that insight can grow and the ASA program is all based around trees. So it's like we have these 12 trees that we work with one tree for every month. So it's a 12-month program.
Speaker: yeah Yes. Yeah. And I really like, I remember reading, when i because I've recently joined asa I've only been in about a month now, I think it is.
Speaker: So I'm very new and it's been really exciting. quite amazing, I think, to connect with people from all over the world, you know, like, and it was really interesting because, you know, synchronicity being what it is, i joined in the month of the Douglas Fair, which is actually when I did the the meditation visualization, it's actually all about connecting into local communities.
Speaker: which is really interesting and it's something that, you know I've moved down to a new rural part of Australia maybe a year and a half ago. So I'm still kind of settling in. I've got some beautiful friends here, but, you know, I left a big community in Melbourne to move here and it's been really awesome, but also it has just had challenging moments.
Speaker: ah And something that really stuck, I hope it's right for me to share this, that really stuck in my mind from that visualization is that even just that, the idea of, the kind of the way those trees talk to each other and the mother tree and the mother seum, the fungi under the ground.
Speaker: and And then relating that to all of the different ways in which the community is actually connected, even if it can feel quite disconnected. And I kind of was thinking about like the local supermarket and the people that work there and the people that kind of take our bins or, and I was like, wow, there are so many little pieces that go towards making this community And actually I've been feeling, really noticing those little parts of connection a lot more. So it's been really, really amazing and lovely. So thank you. Oh, that's that's great to hear I'm so glad you you had that month as your as your first your first month.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's, I think the tree metaphors for those things. So we have the, in the treat so yeah, for every month that we have this tree that is the theme and Douglas firs may, and it's all about local connection, local community connection. And we use the Douglas firs as this metaphor, because as Susan Simard wrote in her amazing book, finding the mother tree, it's all about how trees, forests are like villages and they take care of each other and they distribute resources to the ones that need it. The ones that are sick or young.
Speaker: Um, And all these little connections of of the ways that all the different trees work together. And it's funny because somehow having the tree metaphor allows us to engage with things, I think, in a way that sometimes, yeah, it it the the tree metaphor kind of works for really everything. So like everything I've found so far in terms of like human psychology creativity,
Speaker: and the things we're talking about, there's a kind of, the trees have a, have a way of talking about that, or they have a kind of parallel because they are an example of these very connected, imbalanced communities that are very self-sustaining and and, and it's all about their connectedness to each other through the roots.
Speaker: Um, but they still have to go through storms and they still get struck by lightning, but there's this, this, and they have all the, the bark around them, which is their kind of like self kind of protection, keeping in what's helpful, keeping out what's harmful.
Speaker: They have their roots, their connections each other through the roots, they have their branches, their values, reaching up to the light. So we really use the tree as a metaphor for our own work and our a connection to our, to our communities.
Speaker: But it's it's interesting you say that about the, um you know, so being able to like see um the people in your community, the supermarket, the people that take the the bins, because I wonder if it hadn't come to you via a nature metaphor and if somebody had just said to you, there's something about the state of imagination when you go into a tree journey, which is like an altered state because there's the music and it's kind of takes you deep, that even quite simple ideas,
Speaker: ah take hold in a way that's meaningful, in a way that if someone had said to you, oh, Esme, you've moved to this new community. and But yeah, there's lots of connection. There's the people that work in the supermarket and there's the people that take the bins.
Speaker: You'd have been like, yeah, that's true. It would have hit you on a kind of cognitive level, probably, that didn't really impact you in a felt sense. But something about when you become a tree and you feel the connections and you feel the beauty of that web, it's, I don't know, it could you speak to that at all? Like the difference between learning these ideas through trees versus just the the concept on its own.
Speaker: Yes, I could speak to that. And I've actually i'm recorded a podcast which haven't put out yet around somatics and metaphor and psychedelic therapy. And I feel like, because I feel like metaphor kind of speaks to us on on a felt ah on an embodied level.
Speaker: You know, like my colleague Campbell and I were talking about this and It's like when you feel into when you use metaphorical language, it kind of sneaks past any kind of defenses that you have and you also feel it in a different way.
Speaker: Like if he was talking, he talked about this metaphor that his physio, I think, gave him him about using a spiky ball to heal his foot because he had a back and a foot issue and put his foot onto the spiky ball as if it was like warm spaghetti.
Speaker: And I'm using that example. So let it like be loose, like warm spaghetti. Cause every time he said it, I got hungry, you know, like I started salivating. And so i feel like trees are as such a huge, we're all surrounded by nature and we are a part of nature, whether we we like to think we're not, I think in some ways.
Speaker: but we are. And so I feel like there's something in our soul, I want to use that word, that like actually is, it's already in there. And so there's something about when you're using nature in particular, I think it's like a re-remembering of something that you already have.
Speaker: and Yes. It's already in our bodies. We already know what it feels like for our root tips to connect with other root tips and for it to be reciprocal and balanced and, and good.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And because nature is, is is all around us. i And I feel like actually one of the questions I don't know if I was thinking of asking or putting to you is like,
Speaker: you know, ACER, the integration program kind of that you do kind of followed on from your work in psychedelics. And do you feel like it was really directly informed by that and vice ver versa? like Because I feel like those are the kind of psychedelics speak to people in metaphor all the time and they bring a connection to nature.
Speaker: i think for many, many people, they reconnect them. Absolutely. I think metaphor, music, and nature were the three languages that I had to learn to be a psychedelic therapist.
Speaker: So everything in terms of our therapy model, we did this, and the the ACE model, except connecting body, which was the the model for our, the Imperial study um was based around this, this, a journey called the pearl die, which is all about preparing to dive down into those deep parts of um the sea, the deep parts of our own bodies and find those spiky places and open to them, sit with those places, learn what they those places of tension.
Speaker: and It's like the deep sea is a metaphor for art for our bodies and going to the spiky, dark, deep places and opening them up and finding the jewel of gift. and And then swimming up to the surface of the sea and thinking about how that gift is going to inform your life and your vision and how it'll change the way you live.
Speaker: And so... met the metaphor of um the pearl dye was the key part of the therapy and and the playlist was obviously, you we know that the music is the guide really. It's so important. And so I had to learn to make playlists and understand about music as ah as the guide. And and then nature floor yeah, i mean, so many people in our studies did have either...
Speaker: nature as part of their journeys um or they felt more or sometimes both they felt so much more connected to nature afterwards the greens felt greener things felt more beautiful they they had this deep ah understanding of nature and that we are nature so yeah music metaphor and nature and that's what psychedelic therapy taught me And that's what Acer really, those the modalities of Acer as well as breathwork.
Speaker: Breath is the other one as well. Yes. Yeah. I had a really beautiful first breathwork session with Lee actually last last week, I think. Yeah. And I really liked the invitation to kind of Yes, this is online, but let's kind of close the eyes and actually put the laptop away, know, because there's a lot of power to put to online. You know, I do a lot of my psychotherapy work online, you know, because it means I can reach people all over Australia, but also single parents and people who it's difficult for them to get to appointments.
Speaker: Yeah. but but But by the end of my word day, I am like, you know, done with the computer sometimes. And so it was really a lovely gift to kind of go into the body and to do that practice.
Speaker: Yes. Oh, I'm so glad you you did that. Yeah. that Was that the Beltane breath journey? It was the, I don't know. No, it wasn't. I think it was last the week before.
Speaker: Okay, so it was like, a because she does the and the monthly practices where you learn different breathwork skills and then she does the longer breathwork journeys for the eight Celtic Wheel of the Year, and the eight points of celebration. But and she, yeah, Lee is, and I think actually coming back to that idea of like healthy community building and how hard that is Lee is powerful,
Speaker: ah really very fundamental part of ASA. And I think it's been ah yeah um she's a, she's a breath worker and the community manager. and She is very, she, she has very, very good skills in, in holding a community. I think it's quite a rare skill. You know, we were talking about that kind of connectedness training, but it's, I don't know how she's done it, but she has learned somehow to really,
Speaker: to really um it's a very particular thing. So yeah, she, we, I don't think if I hadn't met Lee, she had come to work with Asa. I'm not sure whether it would have worked in a way that it has, but, and it's very much, I think about, um,
Speaker: the breathwork skills that, that she, she came to breath to a Sarasa having had a burnout herself. and And so she, and which had very severe physical, um, consequences.
Speaker: And so she, the, you know, the vagus nerve toning and the, the working with soothing the nervous system is just, it's her reality now. It's how she works.
Speaker: And so I think bringing that in, I mean, that's the other thing we haven't talked so much in terms of like, the skill set to to adapt in response to the fast-paced corporate psychedelic way is nervous system regulation.
Speaker: And that's so all about slowing down and being more connected to the body and what the body needs. And yeah I think it's important that we don't use those skills as a way of just empowering us to maintain the status quo, but instead um develop those kind of skills that to really help us say, like, this is what the body needs.
Speaker: How can I work for systems that are working towards that in the world? yeah i yeah Rather than just like co-opting those skills, I think breathwork is often used to just improve functioning. rather than It's actually quite a radical and it's quite a radical practice because it and we have it in us. It's in our bodies all the time.
Speaker: And if we allow it to, it can take us to quite deep alter states and deep insights about the world. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: And that idea that needing to slow down, so resonate with what you're saying that we have to be careful. burnt out not once, but twice. you know I really didn't learn the lesson the first time.
Speaker: hello um i i had to learn it a second time. And the second time can remember just being in my lounge room and I had a knife in one hand i was trying to make dinner and an onion in the other hand and I actually just couldn't remember to chop the onion like my brain just went nah that's it I'm shutting down this was in Australia i'm after working for a long time in an NGO space which I loved and people again were amazing and the work was amazing but the pace and the kind of
Speaker: drive the productivity kind of push when you're working with really severe torture survivors and trauma survivors. It's not, you can't do that. Yeah. um And so I think it's really, and and so often I used to hear kind of people, the expectation being, oh, you just do a bit more yoga, you know, we'll put on a yoga class at lunchtime and that's great. And I really, you know, i think that's really awesome, but that's, it's it's actually looking at the systems.
Speaker: that that that were supporting the staff that was the thing that needed to change and um and the pace and the amount of work that was expected, I think, too. and Yes.
Speaker: Yes. yeah It's a hard one, isn't it? Because when we're kind of, I think one of the things that we hope that ACER is for people, i mean, it's as I said before, it's like it's completely different. like Some people join the program just to listen to the tree journeys every month on their own. They don't join the groups.
Speaker: they They engage in materials and they just incorporate it into their own life that way, which is wonderful. Some people join for more of the sharing circles and their breathwork circles and the live things. and People join for many different reasons.
Speaker: But I think one of the things that I hope is that and it's a kind of fertile ground. It's like a nurturing space where we can...
Speaker: kind of come back to ourselves and really have that slowness and that pace of just soothing the body, having that supportive connection with other people. And that through that, we can feel ourselves more resourced actually live in ah slightly different way than when we've been numbed and exhausted and burnt out.
Speaker: And it's very hard to know how to to make those changes, and the the subtle changes. But I think one of the things i really ah feel hopeful about is that, you know often people look at the way the world is and look at the structure structures of power and say,
Speaker: you know, how can I change this? I'm powerless to change this. And it's like the frustrating thing about, you know, corporations that just add in a little bit of mindfulness, like all of our best things get co-opted. And it's like, how do i how do i bring my heart and how do i work in this system without co-opting or like without being part of the problem rather than the solution? How do I do that?
Speaker: And I think that one of the things that we've started doing in ASA is people surprise us by wanting to go on to do a second year and not not everybody some people just do the first year and they they stay the tree cycle they keep practicing on their own or with friends they met in ASA but they don't continue within the program but when people do continue to a second year they're invited if they want to to be part of this thing called the algegration circle which is people um we give them
Speaker: Um, so a tree journey, a video, video of the the tree and what it means and like the kind of the teaching of the video and also one of the tree journeys. And they start a little local group just of their friends or the friends of friends or whoever. And they, it's like a little pod where people can come, they make nests for people. So they make every person a cozy, soft nest with pillows and cushions.
Speaker: And people come, they listen, they watch the film, they do a tree journey, they have a sharing circle. People often friend will cry. There's a lot of emotion, lot of care, lot of holding. Sometimes people make a cake or make cacao.
Speaker: And even though something like that seems so small, i think that creating those networks of care in our local communities and just starting to create spaces where we're not on our laptops, we are sitting in a circle in a living room um sharing deeply about how how we really feel, having that sense of there's a door that we can knock on, that there's somewhere we could go, is, I think, a very small thing. But I think it's but we need to um create that sense of the power of the people, the power of the community, and the power of the majority
Speaker: to actively resist and speak up about what's important to us. And in order to do that, coming out of the numbing and the overwhelm, the burnout and and the distraction and coming into the feeling and the and courage to stand up for our values and that sense of how other people are ah have these values too. And ah think that's something we could actively do. So although, you know, it's not like ACE is like an activist program um and many people don't use it in that way. It's just for their own soothing.
Speaker: there is also that element of like, we are actually trying to um contribute to something that we feel might be part of the solution rather than the problem.
Speaker: And that we talk about like islands of connectedness and in a sea of chaos and that by... more and more little islands of connectedness kind of joining up like I don't know maybe it's a bit grandiose maybe it's my psychedelic narcissism speaking but like I just I can't I just find it so frustrating to look at what's happening in the world and to yeah you know to not I just it's like that there must be something that we can do and I think community connectedness is maybe one of those things that we can all do and it's really important
Speaker: Yes, i I totally agree. And I think that idea of going in so that you can be with what's inside and then also go out is really important to me. And I think that's what you're speaking to. It's like, you know, to go in and then and then go out. And it doesn't have to be activism in ah really big way. And in fact, that's, you know, maybe that's not right for a lot of people, but that idea of just coming together and saying and talking and being with each other.
Speaker: and holding each other in in in ah kind of the pain or in in the joy as well. That that that that is something that we can learn and take more out into the world. I think it's really important. and um Well, I hope, mate yeah, maybe if you have the time when you get, you know, next year, you might you might do a local group. I mean, you said you've moved to a new community, so it's one of those things that can be quite connective to say, hey, do you want to do a...
Speaker: tree tree meditation I mean sometimes people kind of roll their eyes and say like oh the strange hippie lady but actually i found that everyone loves trees so it's a great connector because most people if you say like oh we're doing this tree journey and it's got nothing to do with psychedelics actually it's just about learning the lessons of the tree that people have described moving to new places and making new friends because they've you know stuck up a poster and they've some people have come along and Yeah.
Speaker: So maybe, maybe you'll do it as they. I hope so. You know, I'd like to. And I think, you know, I think what's been, yeah I think, I mean, where I live now, there's certainly a lot of amazing trees. Like this is such a beautiful,
Speaker: eucalyptus trees and big forests and very, very blessed down in the Otways in Victoria. So it's beautiful. And and i think I think that could be something that be really good. And I have to say, this commut the community that I'm living in, there really is that you know, rural Australia suffers from like a disconnection and there can be a lot of her loneliness and there's been a recent push to start doing more and more community events.
Speaker: So they've just started having community dinners in the town where people can come and share food. And so it's really lovely to see some of those things happening and maybe this could be one of them. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: We would we love that so much. and yeah We have a group of people that are doing this, what we call it, out-degration. So we have this idea of like, integration is about bringing in the gifts of your psychedelic experience or your altered state of consciousness experience and like integrating your connection to the community and nature, bringing all those gifts into yourself.
Speaker: And then out-degration is like sharing some of those gifts with other people in a way that is not not meant to be culty. Like you're not trying to indoctrinate people into like, but it but it's just,
Speaker: it's ah It's an offering and it's like how to connect across divides and polarities. And it is the kind of thing you could fit into, you know, a community dinner where you live. It is the kind of thing that actually kind of, it can slot in also because they're recorded materials.
Speaker: You just press play. You don't, there's, you know, it's kind of an easy thing to facilitate as well. Yeah. That's it. And then you can be part of it as well, which is nice as opposed to just holding the space, which, you know, us therapists probably do that a lot, you know.
Speaker: Yeah. Yes. Appreciate those moments. Yeah. Yes. And I don't know whether you've experienced it with Inesa, but I think maybe one of the most common themes is around therapists coming saying, i did this for my participants because I wanted to learn some integration techniques and I wanted to learn about nature connection and what trees can teach. for my patients for my clients but then I realized I needed it for myself and there's this real sense of like the exhaustion of being a therapist the exhaustion that overwhelm of holding people's pain and distress in these times when pain and distress is a normal response and we ourselves have our own pain and distress and that there aren't any clear answers to the pain and distress and there is no certainty that that pain and distress will and in fact it may will increase
Speaker: such difficult work and I think working psychedelics which can amplify all that I mean and yeah again I was ah transcribing the these conversations I've had with therapists and sorry not therapists people in the ACER program and one of our facilitators is um actually she's in Australia she's a psychedelic therapist and it was such a beautiful conversation with her she was talking in it about having had her own psychedelic journey in which she channeled the pain and suffering of the whole entire world And thought, you know, doing psychedelics in these times as a therapist, your clients may well be channeling the pain and suffering of the world.
Speaker: And you as a guide or sitter are feeling that and you may, if you're having your own psychedelic journeys to be feeling that directly. It's incredibly courageous in the times that we're in to be opening yourself up to feeling the suffering of the world and what do you do with it? I mean, there's so much holding and support and nurturing and nervous system regulation um and like music and crying and dancing and togetherness with others, I think is so important for people going through that. And therapy, having your own individual therapy, I don't think can meet that need in the same way. i mean, it's a different need and obviously having your own therapy can be super helpful as well. But there is something about like,
Speaker: joy like we do a lot of dancing in Asa and there's a lot of kind of and laughter you know we laugh a lot and I think we had lots of conversations recently especially with our and our friends in in the states with everything they're going through and you know having having time to laugh together and also cry like the tears and the laughter are very interconnected yeah um it feels like yeah yeah the reason I came to this because you i was saying about the whole pressing play on the tree journey, like because it everyone is so overwhelmed and exhausted. It's like, we can't be making more demands on therapists to be going and doing even more work. It's that we need to nurture the therapists and provide easy, soothing ways for them to connect with systems of support for themselves rather than always being the ones that have to hold all of the the pain and the responsibility.
Speaker: Yeah. Yes. Thank you. I think it's, and I actually joined, you know, i'm I mean, partly because I've been, you know, so supporting a few events with you and I really loved the ethos and I was really interested in what you're doing. And, and, and also because I feel like,
Speaker: And like, when we were, you know, talking a little bit about this affair, but I can say a bit more about it. Like I, having sat with and been a part of several kind of, like a trial and then in a clinic and then now in another trial working with MDMA as a, as a therapist, it's a kind of altered state that you go into when you're supporting someone in those experiences. You know, obviously I've not had any medicine, but I'm in that field with them. I'm in an altered state. Sometimes that can be incredible and beautiful and expansive.
Speaker: and And it's often also intense and there's pain coming up for them and there's pain that I'm feeling and, you know, something happens where we've all, so many of the things that come up in these experiences are so human, like the human grief for the state of the world, for example, that you're speaking to.
Speaker: of course that's going to touch me as well. Of course it is. And so i really ah felt like I wanted a space to metabolize that. And I'm very, very fortunate. Like I really have some amazing colleagues who I feel so cared for and supported by I can call anytime. And I think, you know, but but to kind of have another way is really important. And I think yeah as ah As a therapist working in this space right now, when it's kind of in the middle of our trial, we got the rescheduling happened and we were kind of doing the work and then suddenly it's going out into the world. And so feel like a sense of responsibility for the field to be talking about this.
Speaker: Because having burnt out twice, having, I love this work and I get so much out of it. I do think we need as a field to think about what we need to do to support the community of practitioners in Australia. And I think ACEs is one great way of doing that.
Speaker: i The other thing that works yeah for me was the ocean. The ocean worked for me yeah and continues to work for me. Yes. And actually, I'd really love to just mention something else that I think might be helpful for people as well. So...
Speaker: so and and Well, yes, I mean, we would we would love more people to come to Acer firstly. I'm going to move on to the other thing, but just quickly to say about Acer as well, that like we we do have people in Australia, but the more people we have from any particular part of the world, the more time slots we can put in.
Speaker: So the more sharing circles and dances and breath works we can put in for that time zone. and And we have, we put people in orchards. So there's like a group of 10 people and we try and do it by location. and We'd love to have some more orchards of people in Australia. and And we've just actually, we've, we heard from a lot of people this time, this intake about,
Speaker: and financial struggles and about like you know because we we have to so in ASA we didn't have any VC funding I just took out a personal loan to to do it and so in order to pay for the team it costs a certain amount of money to do it and we actually still haven't broken even so we're still like we're still in deficit and which means that you know we need to find a way to to break even so that we can be sustainable I think that will happen in time but and but so basically we need to charge we need to charge what we need to charge but we We have started a scheme now where, recent very recently, where we're making flexible pricing. So there will be a ah price, which is financially supported for people who are not able to pay them the main price. So I think for the year it's like around, it basically works out being about a hundred pounds a month for the kind of standard price.
Speaker: And we're doing a financially supported one for people who that is just not possible. And to and enable that to happen, we're asking people that can pay it forward to pay a higher amount.
Speaker: So flexible pricing so that it should be more accessible, but the people that either can support other people to do it or people that need to take some of that support for themselves. and And so we hope that it will be really genuine. Like I think so then...
Speaker: For the whole year, it's going to be the financial supported one is, think, £750 for the year, which is really like, it's kind of, there's i think people are getting ah very, very good, very good, like, in terms of what they're, in terms of reciprocity, like the what they're giving in terms of finance, they are getting back, I would say, many, many times more than that. So that feels good. It's a generous, it's a generous kind of, ah we want to be able to give to people that really need it and we'll use it in that way.
Speaker: um so so that should make it more accessible to people but just to say there's something else as well which is free um and a book that I read recently and I really encourage people to read if they're feeling this feeling of like needing more support um and I think it would be perfect for psychedelic therapists so I'm actually going to have hold up my book and This is the book.
Speaker: It's called The Hologram. You can see my scrolls all over. Have you heard of this? no No, I haven't. Okay. So who's it by? Cassie Thornton. is that Cassie Thornton. casta th and so I've actually just interviewed her for our Ace of Woodland Walk, which is the video that goes out every month. So that will be awesome if people...
Speaker: join our newsletter on the ASA website. Sorry, join our mailing list. They will get that video. You'll get it obviously Esme within ASA. And she's also coming to do a Q&A within ASA in June.
Speaker: and So Cassie Thornton is an artist. And she created this, I suppose it's like a kind of social technology or structure called the hologram, and which she calls here, feminist peer-to-peer health for a post-pandemic future.
Speaker: What it essentially is, and I'll just give you the super simple version, but if people want to do this, then get the book, learn how to do it. and We're also going to be bringing this into Acer as well for people that want to kind of opt in do it.
Speaker: Essentially what you do is and it's about creating a little circle of care around a person. And it all goes one way. Everybody offers care and listening to that person.
Speaker: And then all the people that are part of that circle are all the center of their own circle. So they get that from somebody else and it kind of spreads out that way. So the person in the middle is the hologram.
Speaker: And that person is someone that says, I would like to be a hologram. And I'm looking for essentially like a triangle of listeners. So you find three people, one person is going to listen to you, to you talk, and you can either meet once a year for 10 years or once a week for a month or however often you want to do it for. You make the contract together and you can do it online.
Speaker: And the person that's a hologram is just going to share and talk about their life and how they are. And these three people will listen and ask questions and notice patterns and feedback the patterns and also do research. So if you've got, so the three things that the people will listen around are One person will listen for emotions and psychology, mental health.
Speaker: One person will listen to physical stuff, health stuff, anything physical that's going on. And one person will listen to social stuff, relationships, friendships, work stuff. So the three people have those different hats on.
Speaker: It's not about being a therapist or being trained to do any of this. It's just about being present and listening. And you meet for these times and you take notes and You do the research. So if someone's going through a health thing, and the person that's got the health hound will say, would you like me to Google some of these things, some of these supplements, some of these practitioners, some of these reviews of where to get help.
Speaker: And it just takes the load off the person. And then those three people are all listening to that person, supporting and recognizing patterns and doing the Googling or another less problematic search engine if possible.
Speaker: And then and those three people will become the hologram of their own system. So they will find three people to listen to them. And I think that for psychedelic therapists who are doing this extraordinarily challenging work, often at fast pace,
Speaker: We need to be able to have these kind of systems of support and care, whether it's ASA, whether it's the hologram, whether it's the ocean. And we need that the structures of the systems we're working with to give us enough time to do that.
Speaker: And if they don't, then it's not working. It can only work. And I'm so obviously saying this is somebody who was doing two doses a week. and And, yeah you know, and like being a shadow of human by the end of it, like we and and actually there is a guilt with that because I enabled that to continue and I enabled that to continue for the other people in my team rather than saying no.
Speaker: But I feel that if we together say in order for us to do this work in a healthy way, in a connected way, and the work can only ever be as helpful and as meaningful and as positive as our own nervous systems are.
Speaker: And so let's together collectively say we will only do this work if we have this much time and support for Ocean slash the hologram slash Acer. Because when people talk about the hologram and I tell people this idea, people say, I love that idea, but I don't have time.
Speaker: Or when I say about Acer, people say, I really want to do Acer, but I don't have the time or I don't have the money. And it's like, at what point do we say we can't do this work unless we have access to these things? Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, I think that's a bit very important point and and that sounds like an amazing process. It's not the same thing but it's reminding me of this beautiful thing I did once where I sat in the middle of a circle and everybody chanted around me, speaking, you know, and that was a we we all kind of swapped in and it was all that was a really There's something so important and powerful about being witnessed and and listened to.
Speaker: though as well like to be sharing like that sounds amazing I'm gonna get the book thank you yes it's such a brilliant book she she's such a beautiful writer and i you know the underlining of this book it was like every line was underlined I had to stop underlining because I was just underlining every line it's so moving and beautiful um It's ah incredible. that the The book of Anamkara by um John O'Donohue was one of the other books that I read that was, don't know if you've read that one, Esme. Yeah, I love that book.
Speaker: Yeah. love that book. It's one of my favorites. yeah ah This one is like, ah it's of a similar level of impact as Anamkara. And yeah. and yeah Awesome.
Speaker: I'm just reading, um and I've actually just finished Women, If Women Rose Rooted by Sharon Blackie, and which has been also very impactful. And I've shared that with quite a lot of female friends who have been really enjoying it as well.
Speaker: So I can put links to all these in the show notes. Yeah. Sharon Blackie is amazing. And that is another brilliant, brilliant book. Yeah. it's It's funny because it's one of the things we haven't spoken about so much in this and we're at the end of our time, but it's funny because I often think that at the core of all of this is something that I don't know if I often don't have the courage to speak to.
Speaker: and but it's like um something about the feminine principle and something about in psychedelic therapy, the feminine principle of care, not just from women, but like, although there used to be a focus on medicine women and, at the you know, the Elysianian Mysteries, it was just women that were the medicine bearers.
Speaker: um And psychedelic experiences are like childbirth, for the people going through them and for the guides and the sitters, it's like in a way midwifery. So there's many ways that there is this kind of the depth of the power of the feminine and just acknowledging that we are in the kind of Western system is one that is a oppressing the feminine and women and femmes, transgender people. And that the there's something for me about,
Speaker: um It's starting to vocalize that a bit more and say, like, how can we in psychedelic therapy and integration, how can we start to really clearly stand up for the feminine and stand against systems um that's a that that and work towards kind of um creating these islands of connectedness where there is ah that there is the courage to vocalize that and to is to talk about the elephant in the room, which is that, you know, in the psychedelic field, a lot of the systems, the structures are deeply patriarchal and that the way women are sometimes extracted from is is reinforcing that. So it's like, how can we see more circles of women
Speaker: in positions of real power in the psychedelic field. I don't think it's going to come from the mainstream. I think it'll come from the grassroots. But yeah, I just wanted to say that because i often wimp out of saying it. And I think in the times when we kind of have to be brave,
Speaker: Yeah, thank you. And actually, it's interesting because I did have it on my mind to ask you about this and we're two women working in this space. And I think, you know, it is a generally much more male dominated space, but and a lot of in academia in general, but also in in the psychedelic space, not in the therapy world, though.
Speaker: You know, that's not true. In psychology, it's certainly it almost the balance is almost the other way. Actually, we could probably do... with a more mix of genders in that field. yeah But a lot of what we're talking about are kind of feminine qualities, right? And they are so important in the space and in the world right now.
Speaker: We need more of that in general. i'm Yes. Gosh, there's a lot that can to say about that. Maybe we need to do another podcast, Ros. And also to acknowledge the amazing, like I'm just thinking of some of the Australian and psychotherapy men that I've worked with who are, for me, i mean, I don't know them very well, but such an embodiment of and about a beautiful balance of those qualities and real allies, feminine allies of women and really able to stand for that. And I am so grateful. And in ASA we have, i mean, you know, the masculine and feminine qualities, we're not talking about men and women, that we're talking about yeah the the qualities, the the values.
Speaker: But we do have an A-Series, obviously more women, but we're starting to get more men now. And the men that come are, there was a very moving in one of these interviews I did with the participants where there was a man and who was in our communities in his his second year now. And he, he says, you know, I was part of the patriarchy.
Speaker: was very privileged white man. And i ah was extractive, but he worked in finance and didn't understand kind of what he was perpetuating or part of, and then had a mushroom journey where he understood the the oppression of the feminine and how he had been part of that and is now just wanting to learn to be an ally towards the feminine.
Speaker: And then we have men that are coming in who are saying like, we want to learn, like looking at the world around us and the systems of power and the oppression of women. How can we learn to be, how can we learn to lift up women? And I'm always just so hugely appreciative of those men that come and want to do that work.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely. Me too. And i feel that, you know, like we say, we're not necessarily talking about even gender as the qualities, you know, and I feel like it's like a day therapy often brings these more feminine qualities and potentially can kind of bring the balance back if held in the in the right way. and i And I also have worked with amazing people of of all genders who are wanting to change gender patriararchy and and it affects everybody negatively. you know at all All genders are impacted negatively by those systems.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. So true. So true. Yeah. We're right. Is there anything that we haven't spoke about, Rose, that you would like to say before we finish?
Speaker: Well, I'm just grateful, for as my furthest. I love the fact that we've spoke. I really enjoyed that that. I'm sure we probably haven't answered the questions that you had hoped to go to. but I really appreciate that we've had a lot of time for for where we have gone because it yeah it feels like sometimes you know taking a step out and kind of really looking at um it sometimes feels to me like that is hard given what's happening in the world it's hard to talk about things disconnected from that like so i really appreciated being able to
Speaker: to talk about these things. Yes, thank you. And, you know, one of my, there was many reasons for me starting the podcast, but one was around kind of wanting to build community, connect people, invite people I really love.
Speaker: you know admired or people who i really cared about who really important to me to come and talk to me and spend time know and and also and also to elevate female leaders more to put my voice as a woman in this field out into the world and so um I think it's really great that we've covered some of those topics today so thank you And thank you for for your work. And I think, yeah, this podcast is is great and you your contribution feels really, really important. So yeah, really grateful to you for doing what you're doing.
Speaker: All right. Thanks, Roz.
Speaker: Thanks for listening. If you're interested in following along on the journey with me, check out my Instagram or website details listed in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and share this podcast to help get this important conversation out to more listeners.
