Beyond the Trip: A Psychedelic Therapy Podcast
Season 2 – Launching May 2025

We’re back with monthly episodes featuring new guests and returning voices to deepen the conversation around the emerging field of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy.

This season includes:

 * Discussions on psychotherapy  techniques
 * Therapy Demos
 * Conversations on systemic and  ethical issues in psychedelic therapy

Thank you for being part of the journey so far, I am looking forward to sharing the next chapter with you

Season 2 coming May 2025

Welcome to Beyond the Trip  Podcast. In this episode I am joined by IPAT (indigenous psychedelic-assisted therapies). IPAT is dedicated to supporting the accessibility and therapeutic use of plant medicines for Indigenous peoples. Their vision is to create a culturally safe model of psychedelic-assisted therapy (PAT) that honors the Indigenous wisdom which has guided the use of plant medicines for thousands of years.

IPAT’s purpose is to develop a psychedelic-assisted therapy model that incorporates Indigenous ways of knowing, being, and doing, emphasizing the importance of healing within community. By placing cultural safety at the forefront, IPAT aims to ensure this model is not only accessible to Indigenous peoples but also beneficial and accessible for all.

Jem Stone is a First Nations Woman, Educator and Wellness Practitioner with mixed heritage from around the globe who is passionately integrating original knowledge into education and wellness spaces through connection and decolonised learning methods.

Kirt Mallie is a proud Mualgal man, an Indigenous Therapist, Cultural Educator and Spiritual Teacher. Kirt is a co-founder of IPAT. He was one of the therapists on the Psilocybin-Assisted Supportive Therapy in the treatment of prolonged grief trial.

Dr Bianca Sebben is a Clinical Psychologist based in Brisbane, Australia with a special interest in complex trauma, dissociative disorders including Dissociative Identity Disorder, and working with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

In this episode we talk about IPAT’s recently published paper, the importance of inclusion of indigenous voices in this emerging space, cultural safety in psychedelic therapy, challenges with the medical model of distress, and the importance of collaboration, to bring together different perspectives together in this field.

IPAT website: https://ipat.au/

Psychedelic Therapies and cultural responsiveness: A call for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander engagement in Australian clinical trials and practice https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1326020024000761

Closing the Gap: https://www.closingthegap.gov.au/

Power, Threat, Meaning Framework: https://www.bps.org.uk/member-networks/division-clinical-psychology/power-threat-meaning-framework

Psychedelic Therapies and Indigenous wisdom: Challenges and opportunities for collaboration

In this episode, I talk with Dr Paul Liknaitzky, Head of the Clinical Psychedelic Lab at Monash University. 🌱

We explore Paul’s journey into psychedelic science and therapy, challenges & opportunities in psychedelic rescheduling in Australia, The critical skills needed for psychedelic therapists, future directions for psychedelic research, and why collaboration is key in this space

Paul is Head of the Clinical Psychedelic Lab and a l [https://www.monash.edu/medicine/scs/clinical-psychedelic-lab/home]Senior Research Fellow in the Department of Psychiatry at Monash University. He has played a central role in establishing the field of clinical psychedelic research in Australia and is the principal investigator on a program of psychedelic trials. He is involved in numerous psychedelic studies across the country and collaborates with many international experts and organisations in the field. He has led several world-first studies, including the first trial to use psilocybin in the treatment of a primary anxiety condition, the first study testing the utility of psilocybin as a therapist training tool, and the first trial testing a psychedelic-augmented virtual-reality treatment.

keep in touch with me at Insta: dresmedark

Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esme-dark-627156a0/

website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/

Find  Paul and Monash Clinical Psychedelic Lab at www.monash.edu/psychedelics

Disclaimer: This podcast if for general information only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic- assisted psychotherapy.

Dr Paul Liknaitzky:  Future directions for Psychedelic Research 

In this episode I’ll be talking with Irene Ais, an Integrative Physiotherapist. Irene brings a truly unique perspective to healing, focusing on a holistic pathway to well-being that integrates both physical and mental health. Although we come from different fields, our work intersects in powerful ways, and today, we’ll dive deep into those connections. We’ll explore a range of topics, including mental health, embodiment, trauma-informed practices, and the challenges of traditional therapy approaches. We share valuable insights on therapist self-care, sustainable practices, and the importance of embodiment work—particularly for psychedelic therapists and other mental health professionals.

Irene is an Integrative Physiotherapist specialising in chronic and mental health focused care. She has spent 18 years working in Physiotherapy and her clinical work focuses on the support of invisible chronic illness, chronic pain, hypermobility and providing body-based support for those living with trauma.

Irene also draws from many years working as a yoga facilitator/therapist and mental health/clinical educator which has taken her across Australia and internationally.

Irene’s approach is inclusive, respectful and compassionate. She promotes a ‘we can’t do it alone’ message which acknowledges the environmental, systemic and intersectional factors that impact an individuals health experiences. This leads her to co- create unique, person centred programs which support the individual needs and desires of people she works with.

Her work is neuro affirming, weight and body inclusive, gender affirming, focuses on de-pathologising diversity and offers body based mental health and trauma support.

keep in touch with me at Insta: dresmedark

Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esme-dark-627156a0/

website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/

Find Irene at https://www.ireneais.com

Find Monash Clinical Psychedelic Lab at www.monash.edu/psychedelics

Disclaimer: This podcast if for general information only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic- assisted psychotherapy.

Irene Ais: Psychedelic therapy, embodiment and therapist self-care

In this episode I talk with Sean O'Carroll about the very important topic of bad trips. We get into some detail about what this actually means, we talk about Sean's journey into the psychedelic space and what defines a trip as bad versus challenging. We discuss the importance of seeking support for psychedelic experiences that have been traumatic, and explore the barriers to doing that. We discuss what therapists might do if someone comes to them for support after a bad trip and outline the importance of integration support.

Sean O'Carroll is head of psychotherapy at one of Australia's first purpose-built psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy clinics. He is a lead trainer and therapist at the Monash University Psychedelic Lab in Melbourne, Australia. He does consulting work, including training and supervision for a number of other psychedelic assisted psychotherapy trials. Sean has been studying and exploring human consciousness for over 25 years. His BA honours in philosophy explored the relationship between science, subjectivity and the sacred. He trained as a gestalt Psychotherapist back in 2014 and has worked as a Psychotherapist and an academic lecturing in Transpersonal Psychotherapy, Psychotherapy, Eco-Psychotherapy and other but modalities for the last 10 years.

He is the founder and director of the Wild Mind Institute, which delivers training in psychotherapy, eco psychotherapy, bad trip integration and psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. He's also writing a book about bad trips. Once that's available, we'll put a link in the show notes.

keep in touch with me at Insta: dresmedark

Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esme-dark-627156a0/

website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/

Find Monash Clinical Psychedelic Lab at www.monash.edu/psychedelics [http://www.monash.edu/psychedelics]

Find Sean at - www.wild-mind.com [http://www.wild-mind.com/]

link to Bad Trip work: https://www.wild-mind.com/stibti

Link to Bad Trip Integration Training: https://www.wild-mind.com/bad-trip-integration

Disclaimer: This podcast if for general information only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic- assisted psychotherapy.

Sean O'Carroll: Bad Trip Integration 

In this episode I’m joined by Marg Ryan, a colleague and fellow psychedelic-assisted psychotherapist. We explore the important and, at times, complex topic of non-verbal support in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. We talk about our practice as somatic therapists, our respective journeys into this work, somatic psychotherapy and psychedelic therapy, non-verbal support in psychedelic therapy, the Importance of the attachment lens in psychedelic work and consent and boundaries.

Marg is a senior clinical psychotherapist with twenty years in mental health and private practice. She conducts therapy and supervises clinicians working with individuals, couples, and those developing psychedelic-assisted therapy skills. Marg has been involved in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy research at Monash University’s Clinical Psychedelic Lab in Melbourne, Australia. She served as a core therapist in Australia’s largest psilocybin trial for Generalised Anxiety Disorder and in the MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD trial. She completed intensive psilocybin training and MDMA therapist training with MAPS in 2021. Marg co-facilitated a training program for psychedelic trial therapists at Curtin University, delivered by Monash, and assisted in the first Australian MAPS MDMA training at Monash. She is also a tutor for the MIND (Berlin) two-year psychedelic therapist training program.

keep in touch with me at Insta: dresmedark

Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esme-dark-627156a0/

website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/

find Marg at https://www.counsellormelbourne.com/

Find Monash Clinical Psychedelic Lab at www.monash.edu/psychedelics

Disclaimer: This podcast if for general information only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic- assisted psychotherapy.

Psychedelic Therapy and Non-Verbal Support: Marg Ryan

 In this episode I’m going to be zooming out from thinking about psychedelics from an individual therapeutic perspective and taking a more systemic lens. As a part of this I’m joined by Natalie Ginsberg who has worked at MAPS since 2014. We talk about the beginnings of her work in the social justice space, her work in drug policy reform and her role as global impact officer at MAPS. We discuss the promise and complexity of psychedelics in the conflict resolution space and the importance of psychedelics for collective as well as individual healing. We also dive into how important it is to find space to process our grief and feel our joy, love and playfulness.

Natalie founded the Policy & Advocacy department at MAPS, and served as its director for 5 years.  She also initiated and co-developed MAPS’ Health Equity program. As Global Impact Officer, Natalie works for the responsible integration of psychedelics into mainstream culture, to help “set the setting” for an ethical global movement. Before joining MAPS, Natalie worked as a Policy Fellow at the Drug Policy Alliance, where she helped legalize medical cannabis in her home state of New York, and worked to end New York’s received her B.A. in history from Yale College, and her master’s of social work (M.S.W.) from Columbia University.  She is also a co-founder of the Jewish Psychedelic Summit.

My website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.cm.au/

MAPS: https://maps.org/people/natalie-lyla-ginsberg/

Relational Processes in Ayahuasca Groups of Palestinians and Israelis (2021) -https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8170481/

Ripples Alliance:-  https://www.ripplesalliance.com/

Doctors without Borders: https://www.msf.org/

Natalie Ginsberg: Psychedelics and Social Justice

In this episode I talk with Marcella OT’Alora and Bruce Poulter, two people who have been instrumental in sharing knowledge of MDMA assisted Psychotherapy with 100’s of trainees all over the globe. They have also supported many participants through the process of MDMA Assisted Therapy as part of their work on trials in the USA and continue to provide supervision and consultation to many people engaged in this work all over the world. In this conversation we cover many topics, including: their respective journey’s into MDMA assisted therapy, what MDMA assisted therapy involves, healing through being witnessed, The importance of pacing and tailoring therapeutic approaches, the FDAs decision and how they feel about it and the importance of doing your own work as a therapist.

Marcella OT’Alora has an MA in Transpersonal Psychology from Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado, and an MFA in Fine Arts from the University of North Carolina at Greensboro.  Marcela is an Installation artist, researcher, teacher, and supervisor. For 25 years she has been in private practice working primarily with trauma and specifically with PTSD. Her interest and focus on trauma led her to understand the healing journey as an intimate re-connection with one’s innate essence through love, integrity, compassion, and honoring of the human spirit.  In addition to private practice, she has dedicated her professional life to training and research.  Beginning in 1999, she has worked on various studies sponsored by the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) as a Principal Investigator and investogator using MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for the treatment of PTSD. Additionally, she is a lead educator and supervisor for MAPS’ MDMA-assisted therapy training program.

Bruce Poulter has worked much of his career with people in altered states. He was initiated into health care as an ICU nurse at UC San Francisco Moffitt Hospital when the AIDS pandemic first emerged and began devastating our communities. Later he received a MPH from UC Berkeley in Health Planning and Policy. He went on to develop public health programs including one of the first certified nurse-midwife based perinatal programs serving low income women, and a program that identified and provided care for families at risk for abuse and neglect of their children. He has worked extensively somatically with people in chronic pain and was an intimate observer of the first government approved MDMA for PTSD MAPS study in Madrid, Spain in 1999. He has offered harm reduction services thru Zendo and other organizations, was an investigator in the MAPS Boulder MDMA for PTSD Phase 1, 2 and 3 trials, is currently a Lead Educator and Mentor Supervisor for therapists working on studies for MDMA-Assisted Therapy.

keep in touch with me at Insta: dresmedark

Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esme-dark-627156a0/

website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/

Find Monash Clinical Psychedelic Lab at www.monash.edu/psychedelics

Find MAPS at https://maps.org

Power threat meaning framework:- https://www.bps.org.uk/member-networks/division-clinical-psychology/power-threat-meaning-framework

Disclaimer: This podcast is for general information only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic- assisted psychotherapy.

Marcella OT’Alora and Bruce Poulter: MDMA Assisted Psychotherapy

In this episode, I’m going to be speaking with Dr Simon Ruffell. He is a friend and a close collaborator.

I’m working alongside Simon as one of the teachers on the psychedelic mentorship training organised by Onaya Health.

In this conversation, we discuss Simon’s journey into his work researching Ayahuasca, our shared history in refugee mental health, the importance of including indigenous perspectives in research and the challenges of this, integrating indigenous wisdom into clinical practice and our approaches to supporting clients following psychedelic experiences.

Dr Simon Ruffell is a medical doctor, a psychiatrist and research psychologist with a PhD in Ayahuasca and mental health and he’s also a student of Shipibo shamanism, Simon has worked on several major psychedelic trials at leading universities worldwide including as a senior research associate at Kings College London on their trial looking at psilocybin assisted therapy for treatment resistant depression. Since 2016 his work has been primarily been dedicated to exploring the traditional psychedelic brew Ayahuasca. He is the CEO of Onaya Health where I also serve as advisor. He co-founded the not for profit Onaya Science which researches the effect of Ayahuasca in naturalistic Amazonian settings. Simon’s work seeks to understand plants such as Ayahuasca from both indigenous and western viewpoints with a goal of generating a richer understanding of healing modalities involved.

I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it.

keep in touch with me at Insta: dresmedark

Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esme-dark-627156a0/

website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/

Find Simon at https://www.onaya.io/

https://www.iceers.org/

Find Monash Clinical Psychedelic Lab at www.monash.edu/psychedelics

Disclaimer: This podcast if for general information only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic- assisted psychotherapy.

Dr Simon Ruffell: Bringing together indigenous knowledge and western science: challenges and possibilities 

In this episode, I talk with Dr David Spektor , who worked alongside me as my dyad partner on a two year clinical trial looking at Psilocybin assisted Psychotherapy to treat generalised anxiety disorder.

We discuss the challenges with the medical model of human distress, psychedelic research,  the importance of the dyad model in psychedelic assisted therapy, the self experience study we were lucky enough to be a part of and the importance of vulnerability in therapy.

David is a Senior Clinical Psychologist having worked in the UK, New Zealand and Australia. He has  20 years of experience working in mental health as a clinical psychologist and much of that was spent in the public sector working with severe and enduring mental health issues. He currently runs a private practice based in Melbourne(www.psychologycare.com.au).  He worked as a senior lecturer at the University of Melbourne as a part of the Clinical Psychology Program. He is trained in a type of emotion-focused and psychodynamic psychotherapy known as Intensive Short Term Dynamic Psychotherapy (ISTDP). Nowadays David works in psychedelic psychotherapy research through the Monash University Clinical Psychedelic Research Lab in Melbourne, Australia.  He worked as a core therapist on the psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy for generalized anxiety disorder trial and currently works as a supervisor for the MDMA-assisted Psychotherapy for PTSD trial.

keep in touch with me at Insta: dresmedark

Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/dr-esme-dark-627156a0/

website: https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/

Find David’s practice at: https://psychologycare.com.au/

Find Monash Clinical Psychedelic Lab at www.monash.edu/psychedelics

Disclaimer: This podcast if for general information only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic- assisted psychotherapy.

Dr David Spektor: Dyad work and the importance of vulnerability

 Beyond the Trip: A Psychedelic Therapy Podcast will be exploring themes relating to the therapy part of psychedelic- assisted psychotherapy as well as discussing some important ethical, cultural and systemic considerations to hold in mind when working in this space. You can expect wide ranging conversations with thought leaders and other inspiring humans working in this field and beyond.

Your host, Dr Esme Dark is a clinical psychologist, somatic therapist and a psychedelic -assisted psychotherapist with over 15 years of experience working in the mental health space in Australia, UK and Thailand. She hopes to dispel some myths about psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy and bring a greater understanding to the community about the process, and the beauty, complexities and challenges that go along with it.

Keep in touch at Insta dresmedark

https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/about

Find out more about the Clinical Psychedelic Lab at Monash University below:-

www.monash.edu/psychedelics

This podcast is for general information only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy.

Esme Dark

Shows