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S3-146: The Lowballing Epidemic in Snow
401 Plays14 hours ago
The guys welcome Josh Abrahamson of Valley Green, Brandon Reilly of LADC, Billy and Angela Moore of Executive Property Maintenance, and Jordan Smith of Storm Equipment to discuss the lowballing pricing problem that seems to be getting worse with each passing season
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Episode Kickoff
00:00:39
The SnowJobs Podcast
Let's get it, Snowjobs Nation. Here we go. Episode 146 of the Snowjobs Podcast main show powered by Top Gun Backblades is coming at you. As always, I'm Steve. You know who's with me.
Weather Talk and Humorous Banter
00:00:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
Jeremy Lindstrom, God of Snow. What is up, brother?
00:01:00
RICK JAMES
Hey, not much. Not much. that's ah That's a different one, but we'll go with it.
00:01:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
uh it's just that enough to give you a dirty look and then we're we're winning how you doing bud good week any snow out there yet no snow huh no did they call for any miss or they're still batting a thousand the weatherman the weatherman
00:01:05
RICK JAMES
We'll go with it.
00:01:09
RICK JAMES
Yeah. Doing good. Real good. Had a great good week, so yeah.
00:01:15
RICK JAMES
Nah. Nah. No snow. Maybe next week.
00:01:23
RICK JAMES
Sure. Yep.
00:01:25
Jordan Smith
Thank you.
00:01:26
The SnowJobs Podcast
all right uh they were correct so they're one for one this week even though we thought it was going to be different they uh
00:01:27
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:01:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
The weather pros did nail it. They, uh, they said, no, nothing to worry about. And it did miss us. So I will give them that one.
00:01:39
RICK JAMES
They're talking to end of the week this week for us. They actually you a shot on Tuesday and then another shot in the weekend. so We'll see what happens.
00:01:47
The SnowJobs Podcast
Okay. Well, good.
00:01:49
RICK JAMES
Nothing big, but whatever.
00:01:49
The SnowJobs Podcast
Better than nothing, right?
00:01:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Better than nothing.
00:01:54
RICK JAMES
Let it rip.
00:01:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right. Yeah. It's about that time. It's that definitely that time of year getting colder. How, what's the temperature out there in Fargo?
00:02:02
RICK JAMES
Today, I think it was like this morning, were the 20s and i think it 30s all day or close to 30. Didn't feel too bad. We have a lot of wind today, so.
00:02:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, that's like fucking May for you guys, right? 20s and 30s?
00:02:13
RICK JAMES
Oh, we were out in tank tops, t-shirts, you know, it was a good day.
00:02:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:02:16
RICK JAMES
stuff nothing
00:02:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, flip-flops and shit.
00:02:17
RICK JAMES
Flip-flops, yep, you know what.
00:02:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's it. It's a good day when you're practicing moving your shopping carts, getting ready for the season.
00:02:19
RICK JAMES
Working on that fire, Brian.
00:02:23
RICK JAMES
Yeah, we're trained up for that. You know, it's cross-training for that all all summer, so we're good to go, so.
00:02:30
The SnowJobs Podcast
amen brother all right well we'll get into this oh today gang for your listening pleasure right we got a very well-known group of snow pros with us today we're going kick around a topic that i'm sure most of us in snow know about are concerned about uh and want to do something about it's low ballers all right low ballers and uh we're going to talk about what their short-term and long-term effects on the industry are
00:02:32
RICK JAMES
Yep.
Industry Guests and Main Discussion Topic Introduction
00:02:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
as we see it to help us do this today we have Brandon Riley of LADC he's a crowd favorite he's back with us this what almost three two out of three weeks that's good yeah all right we got Brandon back on board sweet we got Mr.
00:03:05
RICK JAMES
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
and Mrs. Billy Moore of executive out in Detroit
00:03:12
RICK JAMES
Newlyweds.
00:03:13
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yes, and to help us get a perspective from both the contractor and the dealer side, we got Mr. Jordan Smith of Storm Snow and Storm Equipment. And after a hiatus, we have Josh Putz Abrahamson of Valley Green in Fargo.
00:03:30
The SnowJobs Podcast
He's back with us as well.
00:03:30
RICK JAMES
Moorhead.
00:03:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
Moorhead? All Moorhead.
00:03:32
RICK JAMES
Margo Moorhead.
00:03:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
Whatever. Fargo, Moorhead.
00:03:34
RICK JAMES
That's across the river.
00:03:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
It seems shit.
00:03:35
RICK JAMES
It's a big difference. As Jordan knows, it it's a big difference.
00:03:36
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's not. It's really not. For anybody outside of Fargo, it doesn't mean shit.
00:03:39
RICK JAMES
Yeah. You cross that border, things happen differently on Minnesota side than North Dakota side.
00:03:41
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah you
00:03:44
RICK JAMES
I mean, it's crazy.
00:03:46
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, yeah, but listen, this whole group has been in the industry a long time. They do it right. They price right. They know how to price. And, you know they will have a lot of good points, a lot of great insights. So if you don't get anything out of this one, I don't know what to do for you. But, yeah, so we're going to get into it with these guys in a minute. But before we do that, guys, as always, we're going to hear from Team Top Gun. We're going to come back, we do a quick week review, a very quick week review, and we will get into it with the crew.
Podcast Recap and Technical Delays
00:04:47
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right, gang, we're back. So what did we do last week? We had the first ever episode from a tent in the wilderness.
00:04:54
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:04:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
That was pretty impressive.
00:04:56
RICK JAMES
Yeah, it was Jake.
00:04:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
Pretty awesome. Yep. Jake was good. So check that one out if you haven't already. We also dropped another Arctic Army roll call last Thursday, and we actually beat Amazon.
00:05:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
Amazon tried to keep that one off the air, tried to keep it from uploading with their Black Friday thing that went live and delayed every episode after midnight that day that was posted. I guess they use up exceptional amounts of bandwidth when they start that shit.
00:05:21
The SnowJobs Podcast
So ah it delayed everybody's episode that day on that platform from getting out for about four hours. But it is up there. We had most of the big crew, what?
00:05:29
RICK JAMES
was a good one. It was a good one, double down.
00:05:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
and What?
00:05:33
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:05:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, great one. it's It's funny to hear here Blake and Lucas you know talk about how like Randy had the grand plan and they had to kind of tone it down and stuff and re-envision it.
00:05:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
But it's funny to hear them with their perspectives.
00:05:45
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:05:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
But yeah, we had the whole gang. All the big names were there, minus Big Daddy, of course. They were on with us. They gave us the time. It was a great episode. So if you haven't checked that out, that is there for your listening pleasure as well.
00:05:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
And we know that those... That crew is exceptionally busy this time of year. It's like Santa's elves in the workshop, man, trying to get all the stuff out and trying to get their little stuff done too.
00:06:08
RICK JAMES
Oh, Johnny's been busy. I was talking to yesterday. He's moving, moving equipment in, out, everywhere. He's just going crazy.
00:06:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
They're always on the move, man. Damn it, I can't imagine how tough Jeff Sexton's life is this time of year. Trying to get plows turned out and get them out. Double downs, all sorts of good stuff.
00:06:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
So, ah yeah, check that one out.
00:06:27
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:06:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
And let's see. Keep hitting like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of the other 16 platforms that carry the show, including on our website. Leave us reviews, any questions you have.
00:06:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
Don't hesitate to get a hold of us. And if we don't know it, we will definitely get you the answer from somebody. ah That kind of stuff helps us out, guys. So, you know, don't hesitate to reach out. What else? Snow Jobs Nation store stocked as always and ready.
00:06:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
We've got new items. You want to tell us what we got, Jay?
00:06:55
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:06:56
The SnowJobs Podcast
What's new in the store?
00:06:57
RICK JAMES
Oh, we got ourselves some 30-ounce tumblers with our logo on, two different logos on it. And we got a coffee cup tumbler also. So 10-ounce and a 30-ounce.
00:07:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sweet. Non-alcoholic beverages only in there, right?
00:07:13
RICK JAMES
No, if it fits anything.
00:07:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
now No, no.
00:07:15
RICK JAMES
Anything you want. I mean, you could probably put firebrand in here for a while if you want.
00:07:19
The SnowJobs Podcast
Fire brine.
00:07:20
RICK JAMES
Melt her down.
00:07:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
Keep it warm.
00:07:20
RICK JAMES
It would melt her down after a while, though.
00:07:21
The SnowJobs Podcast
it It will probably melt stainless steel.
00:07:23
RICK JAMES
Melted down.
00:07:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, no, that's probably a bad idea.
00:07:24
RICK JAMES
Yeah, it would melt her down. I mean, be good for a while. so
00:07:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
I've heard that, that you need to keep brine warm. it it
00:07:30
RICK JAMES
Warm.
00:07:31
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, it transfers better something, sprays better if it's warm.
00:07:32
RICK JAMES
Spin the hell out of it. Spin the hell out of it. Spin calcium. you know Spin it all.
00:07:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right. You got anything else? Because otherwise, let's get this going. We'll do some commercials and get into it with this gang. I can't wait to hear from them.
00:07:47
RICK JAMES
Now let's go.
00:07:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right. That's it. Let's hear from our partners, and we'll be right back, guys.
Weather Forecasts and Predictions
00:10:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
all right guys we are back so let's welcome in the gang brandon jordan billy and angela putsy how are we guys how's everything going
00:10:17
Brandon Reilly
Good.
00:10:18
Billy
Good.
00:10:19
Putz
Good.
00:10:19
The SnowJobs Podcast
audio show don't hesitate to speak up no problem uh that's good that's good so uh let's go around the room what's new brandon how was your week bud you haven't been on in like a week so uh what's what's new and exciting out there in minnesota
00:10:32
Brandon Reilly
um Not much. Actually, we're warming up for the next couple days before snow, before Thanksgiving and then a break on Thanksgiving and then snow after Thanksgiving. That's what they say.
00:10:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
You're going to snow before Thanksgiving?
00:10:41
Brandon Reilly
That's what they say. That's what they say.
00:10:44
The SnowJobs Podcast
You know what I think is coming?
00:10:44
RICK JAMES
They're right. no other guys.
00:10:45
Brandon Reilly
I also get an update every day saying that I would get anywhere from 0.1 to an inch. so
00:10:49
RICK JAMES
No.
00:10:50
Brandon Reilly
this
00:10:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, every day.
00:10:51
RICK JAMES
Who's that from?
00:10:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Twice a day.
00:10:52
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
00:10:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
Every day. ah I think you'll probably be saying our our new favorite soundbite. Nope.
00:11:06
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:11:07
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh shit. All right. The more is how are we is the honeymoon over? Are we still happy? What are we doing here?
00:11:14
Billy
Oh, we're still happy. We haven't had the honeymoon yet. Yeah, no honeymoon yet.
00:11:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right, well, there you go.
00:11:17
RICK JAMES
oh
00:11:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
You're saving it for when you really need it
00:11:20
Billy
We're saving it for after the shit show.
00:11:21
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:11:23
Billy
Yeah. Good. Yeah,
00:11:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's awesome, that's awesome. How's everything guys good
Current Business Activities and Preparations
00:11:29
Billy
yeah just finishing up ah the fall shit stuff. Holiday lights, wrapping that up.
00:11:34
The SnowJobs Podcast
You do holiday lights too
00:11:34
Billy
Snow's already. Yeah. Yeah. Quite a bit, actually.
00:11:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
wow yeah that's a that's a racket
00:11:39
Billy
dealerships, home, high-end homes, seasonal pots, display stuff. It makes a dollar. We do it.
00:11:47
The SnowJobs Podcast
absolutely okay that's just starting to catch on around here lot of people doing it uh putsy how we doing long time no talk
00:11:48
RICK JAMES
Oh, boy.
00:11:50
Billy
Yeah.
00:11:55
RICK JAMES
you want to?
00:11:57
Putz
Good, good. Yeah. I know it's been a while. Yeah.
00:12:01
The SnowJobs Podcast
It has. It has. i i expect a lot of...
00:12:03
Putz
No, we're just...
00:12:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
I expect you firing from the hip tonight. Get nasty. Get mean.
00:12:08
RICK JAMES
Oh, Putsy.
00:12:09
Putz
Yeah. ha
00:12:09
RICK JAMES
He'll be on it. Where are the kitties at, Putz?
00:12:10
Putz
Yeah. ha
00:12:11
Brandon Reilly
Where's the cat?
00:12:12
RICK JAMES
Where's the cat?
00:12:14
Putz
Cats are upstairs, so...
00:12:15
RICK JAMES
Oh, oh you're downstairs.
00:12:15
Putz
Yeah.
00:12:16
Billy
Thank you.
00:12:17
Putz
Yeah.
00:12:17
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:12:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
Is your cat as big as Santa Licitos?
00:12:21
RICK JAMES
beggar
00:12:21
Putz
it's ah The one's pretty big, so... Yeah.
00:12:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
Dude, Mike's cat's got to be...
00:12:24
RICK JAMES
they got They got tigers.
00:12:26
The SnowJobs Podcast
Mike's cat's got to be 40 pounds.
00:12:27
Putz
Hell no, that's not happening.
00:12:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
That thing is huge. It's huge. Took up the whole screen.
00:12:30
Putz
Yeah.
00:12:31
RICK JAMES
Yeah, but putz's cats are miniature tigers. They're actually tigers.
00:12:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
Are they really?
00:12:33
Putz
Yeah.
00:12:34
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:12:34
Putz
Mangles. Yeah.
00:12:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
Really?
00:12:36
Putz
Yeah.
00:12:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
Wow.
00:12:38
RICK JAMES
It's a guard, guard cats.
00:12:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
Crazy.
00:12:38
Putz
Yeah. yeah
00:12:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
god Jordan, how we doing, buddy? How's everything?
00:12:45
Jordan Smith
Oh, it's been a wild week.
00:12:47
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, what
00:12:47
Jordan Smith
Been a wild week.
Storm's Major Business Change Announcement
00:12:48
Jordan Smith
I had lots of new stuff.
00:12:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
what's new, bud?
00:12:49
RICK JAMES
Oh, what happened?
00:12:51
Jordan Smith
Well, I mean, first on Monday, went to Des Moines, Iowa, beautiful Des Moines, Iowa for a little Iowa Landscape Association event. And then on Thursday, went up to Fargo to see my buddies Jeremy and his crew at Glacier and Putsy, which was a great time. And today,
00:13:12
Jordan Smith
I was in Madison, and I guess I'm saying this, it's going to air on Monday, but you know rewind to last week, it'll all make sense, right?
00:13:17
RICK JAMES
no
00:13:19
Jordan Smith
But something really big happened this week, which some people have already heard about, because I got a lot of texts and calls today.
00:13:26
RICK JAMES
What?
00:13:27
Jordan Smith
Big stuff, big stuff. So...
00:13:30
RICK JAMES
Please tell
00:13:32
Jordan Smith
i haven't I haven't said this publicly anywhere, so it'll be first on Snow Jobs, and I think that's fitting just because Snow Jobs has been a big part of our journey at Storm.
00:13:43
Jordan Smith
But I'll try not to take too much time here, but I want i want i want to get want to get the message out there because think it's important.
00:13:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, do your thing. what you need?
00:13:48
Jordan Smith
I think this stuff can kind of go crazy and spiral in the rumor mill if if you don't just get in front of it So that's what I'm going to So over the past decade, for those that don't know our story from VSI into storm, I mean, we've put a lot, a lot, a lot into growing the hydraulic wing plow and heavy equipment attachment market in the U.S. Those that have worked with us know what we do. Those that haven't probably have an idea what we do.
00:14:13
Jordan Smith
but But honestly, the real story is not about the plows or equipment, it's about the people, friends like all of you in here, um all the trust that's been built up with customers and and honestly, all of our customers who become family to us again, like like all of you here tonight.
00:14:29
Jordan Smith
it's It's the relationships that shaped who we are. So the thing that happened this past week or this week as we're recording, doesn't change any of that. So what happened is last week, MetalPlus Ownership made the decision to terminate our account at Storm and end our working relationship.
00:14:49
Jordan Smith
One thing I wanna make clear is that was their call. It was not a mutual call. So I already had a few people today like, oh, I heard you guys agreed to not work together anymore. And that's not correct. This was a ah one-sided decision and definitely not something that we decided to do.
00:15:06
Jordan Smith
we We kind of thought that ah a decade of loyalty and partnership and growth together with Metal Plus would carry a little more weight than that, but unfortunately, in this case, it didn't. So the part that matters really the most, besides the friends and family we've built doing this, and I want everyone to hear it and also spread the word for us, is that just because Metal Plus ended our working relationship doesn't change anything about our commitment to the industry,
00:15:32
Jordan Smith
to all of our contractor partners, to our friends and our family who rely on us for service, for parts, Storm Academy, Storm Chase, and none of that stuff changes. We're we're marching marching onward.
00:15:43
Jordan Smith
If you own a Metal Plus product, we're going to support you, whether you bought it from us or not, just like we always do.
00:15:44
Billy
Thank you.
00:15:50
Jordan Smith
ah Whether you bought it in the past, whether you bought it used or new, whether you buy it in the future, we will be here to support. i mean, we know more about this product than I think anyone. I would argue that we might know more about the product than a lot of the people that work at Metal Plus. And I think that's why people call us when they need support, when they need troubleshooting.
00:16:07
Jordan Smith
And again, it doesn't matter if it was bought from us or not. we We just know the the products inside and out. We love helping people, i love helping them make their business run more smoothly. And yeah, we're going to continue doing that. So I think it's really important to get that out there because we already had a few people today. i don't know how the this stuff is circulating because I haven't said anything besides to a very close inner circle.
00:16:30
Jordan Smith
um But word's getting out. Phone calls must be getting made. And and people are like, oh, i I just bought a product. Am I going to get support? Am I going to have... you know Am I going to have parts? going have warranty? All that kind of stuff. So to be clear, we are not MetalPlus. MetalPlus is still a manufacturer. They're based out of Canada.
00:16:46
Jordan Smith
We just happen to be their biggest partner in the US, s or I should say we used to be their biggest partner in the US. So I think that's pretty much the message I wanna convey. i mean, again, thank everyone for everything.
00:16:59
Jordan Smith
um Obviously we're not going anywhere. This does mean there's gonna be a pivot in our business. And that means that we're gonna have a competing product to MetalPlus that we're going to bring to market.
00:17:10
Jordan Smith
There's no way we can fill a full lineup of product like Metal Plus has. They have ah hundreds of SKUs for different products, different tractors and sidewalk units and push boxes and just things that we're not going to have time to recreate to be ready for next season.
00:17:26
Jordan Smith
But luckily, because we're such a relationship driven business,
00:17:31
Billy
Thank you.
00:17:31
Jordan Smith
We've built great relationships with other manufacturers and other OEMs, three of which reached out today and offered support saying, hey, if you need to fill gaps in your product lineup, we've got your back.
00:17:42
The SnowJobs Podcast
Nice.
00:17:42
Jordan Smith
So really feels good to know that because we've treated people the right way, people have our back and and again, we have all our customers' backs and nothing changes there. So that's my message, that's my diatribe and I will ah let us get on with the show.
00:17:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Amen.
00:17:56
The SnowJobs Podcast
So I personally am absolutely shocked that you're saying there is hearsay and misinformation out there in the United States. it's like crazy. That's crazy talk.
00:18:04
Billy
Awesome.
00:18:05
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm.
00:18:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
It never happens. Yeah. ah Well, that's great. I mean, it's good to hear that you guys will still be supporting customers because, like you said, the you've built a lot of relationships out there, and that's definitely what's what's different about Storm. So good luck to you guys, whatever you guys are doing going forward.
00:18:23
Jordan Smith
Appreciate it.
00:18:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right, we rolling with this, everybody all ready?
00:18:24
Jordan Smith
I'm excited. Excited for the future.
00:18:27
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
Impact of Lowballing on Contracts
00:18:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right, let's go.
00:18:28
Jordan Smith
Let's go.
00:18:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
So, guys, we're we're here to talk about lowballing and, you know how you know, what we're experiencing with it. So we've all experienced lowballing over the years. But like I said, we've talked we talked to so many different people from all different parts of the country, different markets, and pretty much unanimously what we're hearing is that this by far has been the worst year for low balling that anybody has seen so far with with bids and stuff uh has that been everybody's experience so far this season or is it you know is it just you know basically the we don't like how things are now we don't like change so every year is the worst year ever or is it really really bad uh brandon what about you what do he what's ledc saying
00:19:13
Brandon Reilly
I mean, and it's not obviously every account, but there's definitely been some huge numbers and in in accounts that, you know, we're paying a hundred thousand that are now went for 50,000. And you and know that it's going to take 10 years for that to get back up to a hundred thousand, you know?
00:19:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
if if
00:19:28
RICK JAMES
Thank you.
00:19:29
Brandon Reilly
And the sad thing is obviously they know they're going to, they're setting themselves up for failure. And with the numbers there, you could be 15% less, right? Like 40, 50% less just ridiculous. Right. forty fifty percent less is just ridiculous
00:19:41
The SnowJobs Podcast
yep absolutely uh what about the moors how what are you guys seeing in the detroit area as far as low balling is it the worst year ever
00:19:50
Billy
I would say it is. I mean, I've been doing this 21 years and the gap is just incredible. It's like, I don't understand. i call yeah I like to call it broken calculators.
00:20:03
Billy
I mean, it it is incredible where these people derive these numbers in our market, which obviously I've talked to you the other day about something.
00:20:03
The SnowJobs Podcast
m
00:20:12
Billy
I mean, we, we weren't even in the ballpark, let alone the same city.
00:20:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
Which is absolutely insane if you break it down the way we were breaking it down, right?
00:20:19
Billy
Dude, it's wild. I mean, and the gap is just wild. Like, you know, and I think that people, there's two things. I think people are banking on a no snow market.
00:20:30
Billy
So we're going to come ahead.
00:20:30
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:20:31
Billy
So I can't wait until snowmageddon comes down and drops black hell because it's only going to be the people running loaders that are going to clean this city up or, you know, southeastern Michigan or wherever everybody else is from.
00:20:43
Billy
Because I think everybody says, well, I need, I need the money. So we're going to sell anything that we possibly can. I mean, this is a pimp and horse show. I mean, it's terrible. And then the brokers, I mean, that's, that work is just straight.
00:20:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Hmm. Yep.
00:20:55
Billy
shit They all know who they are. I mean, people are losing, you know, good jobs, buddies of mine have lost cost goes directly.
00:20:58
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah
00:21:03
Billy
It turns out half the price, like yeah Brandon was saying, and then the sold, <unk>re're where We got the lowest salt price, but they're not even salting. They're using sand and they know who they are. I hope they listen to this. They know what they're doing out here.
00:21:17
Billy
They're cheating the customer too. So there's tons and lot of things at play here. Anything you want to add?
00:21:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
And like you talking about low balling, Billy, and betting on no snow, like the the property that we were discussing that you said you weren't even in the ballpark.
00:21:34
The SnowJobs Podcast
If correct me if I'm wrong, you said that was in a 60 inch market. Like that's not somewhere that's, you know, got high standard deviation. That's a 60 inch market.
00:21:40
Billy
No. Yeah. Correct. Not even close.
00:21:43
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's insane.
00:21:45
Billy
Not even close.
00:21:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's absolutely insane.
00:21:47
Billy
Yeah.
00:21:47
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's crazy.
00:21:48
Billy
was It was just wild. Like I said, don't mean to, you know, take up everybody else's time, but you know, even down to dude, it it's just, I couldn't believe it.
00:21:50
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, it's all good.
00:21:53
RICK JAMES
We got lots of time.
00:21:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
We got tons of time.
00:21:56
Billy
Like we, Steve and I discussed it. We, I measured it 42 times. I'm like, how could this even be possible? Like the, but that's all across the board. I got an email today. Like your, your pricing doesn't align with our objectives. I, do you want me to do? Plow it for free?
00:22:11
Billy
So my my point, you know, it's interesting.
00:22:11
RICK JAMES
but
00:22:13
Billy
I was just telling another buddy today, you go to the diesel repair shop, right on the sign, $220 per hour to work on your truck.
00:22:19
Brandon Reilly
Thank
00:22:20
Billy
A small engine repair, $85 to work on your mower per hour.
00:22:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:22:20
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:22:24
Billy
Call a plumber in the middle of the night. What is that? 220 an hour plus parts of labor and a service call. And we're supposed to do it for $20 an hour, but they're doing it. That's the wild part. Like if you break it down, we have a thing called Snostradamus. We break down everything price per acre.
00:22:41
Billy
of what we're getting for salt, bat you know, the whole package. And then you take their number, you work at McDonald's make more. Yeah.
00:22:49
The SnowJobs Podcast
Can we steal that? Snostradamus? I love that.
00:22:52
Billy
But it's wild.
00:22:52
RICK JAMES
Yeah, I like that.
00:22:53
Billy
like It's this crazy spreadsheet that her and I put together of all the metrics.
00:22:55
RICK JAMES
We gotta make we gotta make t-shirts.
00:22:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. Snostradamus t-shirts. That's awesome.
00:22:59
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:23:00
The SnowJobs Podcast
i love that. Yeah. It's, oh my God. It's freaking bad. Putsy and Jeremy, how, how are things in Fargo and Moorhead?
00:23:10
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:23:10
Putz
ah Yeah, there's low bidders.
00:23:11
RICK JAMES
Go ahead, Tatsy.
00:23:13
Putz
um I mean, in the past, we've kind of retained everything. ah But this year, like, we've had stuff we've had for six, eight years, and it's gone up for bid. And We're starting to figure out who's got it now once they start staking everything.
00:23:27
Putz
And it's all, I mean, it boils down to the same stuff that Jeremy at Glacier and and ourselves are seeing, but these same guys in town are working for free.
00:23:27
Brandon Reilly
Thank you.
00:23:36
Putz
I mean, an $80,000 account's going for 25,000 or 28,000, like just to say you have it or what? i mean
00:23:44
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:23:44
Putz
I mean, if you're not making any money, well what's the point of having an account?
00:23:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
I don't know, dude. I
00:23:49
Putz
So I don't know.
00:23:50
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah agree.
00:23:51
Putz
um Yeah, there's a, I don't quite understand people's theory. And like, like Billy was saying, I mean, if we get a, we're like a 55 inch market here, maybe.
00:24:01
Putz
And if we get 55 to 80 inches, like these guys are going to tank. I mean, they're going to be, these sites won't be getting plowed after January.
00:24:08
RICK JAMES
So backwards.
00:24:10
Putz
They won't be able to keep going. So, but then what?
00:24:13
The SnowJobs Podcast
There's no way.
00:24:14
Putz
Yeah.
00:24:14
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
00:24:16
Putz
So I don't know.
00:24:17
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:24:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
don't get it.
00:24:17
Putz
I don't, that's probably what you're seeing too, Jeremy, but so.
00:24:20
RICK JAMES
Yeah. It's definitely the same thing. Thoughts. I mean, we're in the same market and we do a lot the same stuff, but yeah, it's, it's crazy how these, like you said, that one, we know which one it is. That's going that cheap.
00:24:31
RICK JAMES
i mean, it's going through what two, two or three different brokers. Then it goes to the contractor.
00:24:34
Putz
Yeah, yeah think I think that the the people that are doing it are third or fourth in line and mean like you say, it's ah
00:24:35
RICK JAMES
It's like, it's like what, what?
00:24:40
RICK JAMES
And they're
Consequences of Underbidding
00:24:42
Putz
they're doing it for a third of the price that it should be.
00:24:42
The SnowJobs Podcast
They're each taking their cut.
00:24:42
RICK JAMES
80 miles away.
00:24:44
RICK JAMES
think they're like, think they're like from 80 miles away too. It's like, they're not even in the town.
00:24:47
Putz
yeah yeah yeah And they're not even in town.
00:24:49
RICK JAMES
It's like, it's like, it's ridiculous.
00:24:49
Putz
They're going to source it from out of city. so
00:24:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Jeez.
00:24:52
RICK JAMES
It's like, i don't know.
00:24:54
Putz
Yeah, it's not good.
00:24:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
oh
00:24:55
RICK JAMES
It's, it's, that's not the only one.
00:24:56
Putz
yeah it's not good so
00:24:59
RICK JAMES
mean, we have like, like Josh said, we have, there's plenty comps we've had for quite a few years and we lost this year because of this whole deal. You know, it's, people are just throwing, throwing shit out there and,
00:25:12
RICK JAMES
obviously their customers are taken and then the price and be garbage for 10 years if they ever come back.
00:25:18
Brandon Reilly
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:19
RICK JAMES
you know mean I mean, I don't see it happening.
00:25:19
The SnowJobs Podcast
Well, even if they come back, say they go from $100,000 and somebody knocks it down to, say, $30,000. Even if they come back in 10 years back up to $100,000, our cost by that time, it's still only $50,000 basically equivalent by that time that it comes back to $100,000 because our costs are that much higher.
00:25:30
RICK JAMES
Inputs will be way higher.
00:25:32
Putz
Yeah.
00:25:39
The SnowJobs Podcast
So it's they're slitting the throats permanently, honestly. Jordan, what's Go ahead, Jay.
00:25:42
RICK JAMES
one you know how i You know how I feel about all these guys. and Like Josh, we talked about quite a bit. Oh, we're going to take this lot for way cheaper because we're right next door. I'm like, what? That doesn't make any sense.
00:25:53
RICK JAMES
It doesn't matter you're next door.
00:25:53
Billy
Why leave money on the table?
00:25:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
That is the dumbest statement ever.
00:25:55
RICK JAMES
You still got pay for all the equipment, all the guys. It doesn't matter. you're You're driving the price down. you know it's i We talk about all the time. It just doesn't make sense.
00:26:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep, we do.
00:26:06
Billy
But real quick, you see the spread though? I mean, you're everybody here said, i mean, and we're not talking beef 5% cheaper than me and take the bid. talking We're talking yeah half, like it's it's wild stuff.
00:26:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:26:16
Brandon Reilly
Oh.
00:26:17
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:26:19
Billy
You know, like like you said, we lost a few accounts that we've had for 15 years.
00:26:19
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep, absolutely.
00:26:23
Billy
And then, you know, I get this weird phone call from a buddy mine's nephew. says, hey, can you can you can you educate my dumb nephew? I said, yeah, what's going on? He goes, well, I picked up 35th District Court. That's a courthouse we have.
00:26:34
Billy
Well, we don't have it now. He said, well, they're willing to pay me $4,000. He says, I'm going to make good money on this. i was doing it for $19,500. I go, young man, I don't know who you are, but you're going get screwed. Then i it turns out this guy just sits back. He has a fake website and he just finds people on Facebook that says, hey, will you plow for me?
00:26:52
Billy
And somehow he's A snow broker now ah from a laptop.
00:26:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
He's a broker. Yep.
00:26:57
Billy
It's wild to me. And that's okay. look Where's the customer due diligence on this?
00:27:02
The SnowJobs Podcast
Well, that's half the problem right there.
00:27:02
RICK JAMES
Right.
00:27:03
Brandon Reilly
That's a huge problem. No one is doing due diligence on anyone anymore.
00:27:04
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:27:07
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:27:08
Brandon Reilly
You know, you start to show your asset list and everything.
00:27:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. Jordan.
00:27:10
Brandon Reilly
you don't have to do it anymore.
00:27:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
Nope. No, because if you if you if the customer did that, they'd have to pay a lot more because they'd have to pay what you wouldn what you're asking, and they wouldn't be able to take a chance on a lowballer.
00:27:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
So I think they're not asking that shit on purpose anymore. But that's just me. Jordan, how's ah how's things in Mankato is ah from the contractor side?
00:27:32
Jordan Smith
Yeah, to be honest, we've we've had ah a decent sales cycle this year, part partially because we reinstated a full-time snow business developer, which we haven't had for many years. So that's part of it.
00:27:42
Jordan Smith
But I mean, ah of course there's lowballers, right? Like we we know when there's certain companies bidding stuff, we know we don't have a chance if the account is being bid on price.
00:27:46
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:27:53
Jordan Smith
um I'm in the same market as Dustin Van Hale from Total Lawn. we We talk, I mean, every time we're bidding an account, we talk about it. We always compare pricing. We don't you know collude on pricing, but we share each other's bids and we're always very close. right And we always have an agreement with each other.
00:28:09
Jordan Smith
you know Whoever they pick is fine. Neither of us will be mad. We're not going to fight over price. Sometimes he's a couple thousand cheaper. Sometimes we're a couple thousand cheaper, but it's always pretty darn close. And then you got the next guy who maybe wins it against the both of us. And he's 50, 60% our price sometimes less.
00:28:25
Jordan Smith
um there's There's one guy in town in particular, actually get along with him pretty well as a person. He actually buys some equipment from us and that kind of thing.
00:28:32
Billy
Thank you.
00:28:33
Jordan Smith
But his entire thing is he has a summer business. That's his primary business. He only does snow to keep his guys busy in the winter so he doesn't delay him off because if he doesn't lay him off, he doesn't pay the unemployment insurance rate.
00:28:43
The SnowJobs Podcast
He's a paving company.
00:28:45
Jordan Smith
No, this guy, this guy's a siding roofing.
00:28:46
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm.
00:28:47
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, that's usually what the paving companies do around here.
00:28:50
Jordan Smith
This is siding, roofing, windows, that kind of stuff.
00:28:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
Gotcha.
00:28:53
Jordan Smith
So and he's told, and i've I've had conversations with him like, man, there's no reason to be that much cheaper. Like if you want to undercut us, undercut us by like 15, 20%, not 50.
00:28:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:29:03
Jordan Smith
You're just leaving money on the table. He's like, I just want to keep my guys busy. And, you know, we got to get people ah taking this more seriously, whether it's through like, like Brandon said, whether it's through checking an asset list or or checking whatever, whatever it needs to be.
00:29:17
Billy
of insurance.
00:29:17
Jordan Smith
It needs to be something to legitimize this.
00:29:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
Amen.
00:29:20
Jordan Smith
um But yeah, I mean, we've had a good sales cycle. We've been fortunate this year. Our our new business developer did a great job. So shout out to him. but But yeah, I mean, obviously there's some accounts we would loved to have that went for half the price that they should have.
00:29:34
RICK JAMES
here but the How about Jordan?
00:29:34
The SnowJobs Podcast
Gotcha. Yeah. Go on, Jake.
00:29:39
RICK JAMES
How about the your sales? You want to go and talk about that a little bit?
00:29:42
Jordan Smith
Yeah, yeah, no, I think, yeah, from from the equipment perspective, you know, on a national level,
00:29:43
RICK JAMES
like is Sales up or down?
00:29:50
Jordan Smith
I'm definitely hearing a lot of ah more more chatter than normal you know from our normal customers who are usually buying stuff, who aren't buying stuff this year because they lost contracts or they're or they're they're not sure if they're going to get contracts back. There's more uncertainty than I've seen in the past. I mean, we you know we track our sales pipeline pretty tight and it's the lowest our pipeline's been for three or four years. And you know we've we've actually been fortunate to have a pretty good sales year for equipment, but it's
00:30:21
Jordan Smith
the total number of opportunities we're getting is not as high as it has been in the past. And a lot of the reason we hear for that is because guys are losing, they're losing sites to low to low bid.
00:30:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:30:32
Jordan Smith
So it's absolutely an issue without a doubt.
00:30:34
The SnowJobs Podcast
I talked to a dealer the other day, equipment plow dealer. I'm not going to mention the brand. And he said he's had 45 quotes asked for and sent out and he has sold not one.
00:30:47
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm.
00:30:48
Jordan Smith
Wow.
00:30:49
The SnowJobs Podcast
He says it's almost a waste of fucking time in this area anymore because of all the low boys, the low bidding. and Guys have less and less money to spend. And, yeah, they're just you know they're losing sites that would have paid for those those plows, and they're just not taking the chances on them. um So let's try and tackle, like, what...
00:31:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
What the hell is wrong with these guys? Like, what are the root causes that, like Billy said, let's let's beat beat me by 10%. Don't beat me by 50% to 80%.
00:31:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
Don't slit the throat of the contract. Like, what is the root cause of this, like, extreme, not just low-balling, extreme low-balling? Let's call it what it is. Like, you're bidding $100,000 contracts at You don't know what the fuck you're doing.
00:31:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
You have no conception of what this business is about or how to do your numbers. But what the
Reasons Behind Lowballing
00:31:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
hell? Why are guys going lower on their prices in times where the cost of doing what we do is higher than it ever has been?
00:31:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
And yet the guys are they're routinely dropping their prices lower and lower every year. How are they doing it? Why are they doing it? Anybody want to throw out an idea? you know an idea
00:31:58
Brandon Reilly
I feel like at least it seems like everyone wants to just sub everything out now, like 100%. So like the actual cost to do the work doesn't matter anymore. So if they're coming in and they're bidding it know say, $80,000, they're going to sub it out to someone for $40,000 or whatever.
00:32:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
but point.
00:32:15
Brandon Reilly
Whatever that number it is, they don't care about the... actual cost of the equipment to do it, the people to put there, the insurance, because they're just passing it down to the next person. that's what of It seems like everyone is subbing out. like everyone the the The request for, hey, I need this to get subbed is insane.
00:32:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
True story. And at that, I mean, yeah, that's that's definitely one of them. Anybody got in the other any other reasons or or how these guys are doing this, why they're doing it? Are they just not educated or?
00:32:43
Jordan Smith
Yeah, I agree with with Brandon. I think the the multi-layered nature of our of our industry is definitely impacting this because, and you guys have probably heard me talk about this before, but pricing snow is not the easiest thing to do correctly. And that's because a very high percentage of the work we do is is the iron assets that go into doing the work.
00:33:07
Jordan Smith
And learning how to do proper asset recovery is not simple accounting. It's a little bit complex. And you know some sometimes I'm not giving anyone a pass, but sometimes they just don't understand how to properly recover their iron. like I talk to guys all the time and say, well, my loader's paid off. I don't have to charge for it. It's like, well, that that's completely wrong.
00:33:26
Jordan Smith
It doesn't matter if it's paid off.
00:33:27
Brandon Reilly
I
00:33:27
Jordan Smith
just Just like it doesn't matter if you got a payment on it, right?
00:33:28
RICK JAMES
is Oh, geez.
00:33:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
00:33:30
Jordan Smith
You still got a charge for the loader.
00:33:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's when you push when it's already paid off.
00:33:32
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:33:33
Billy
I've heard of that logic.
00:33:33
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
00:33:33
RICK JAMES
Yeah. That's when you're making money.
00:33:34
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
00:33:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:36
Jordan Smith
So, so there's some complexity to it. and And part of the problem with this multi-layered system is exactly what Brandon said. These, these, these companies are getting these accounts. They're subbing it to someone else. They know that a sucker's born every minute so they can find someone to take it for whatever price they offer.
00:33:49
Jordan Smith
So they don't care what their, their starting bid price is because they're going to whittle it down to someone who's going to take it anyway.
00:33:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:33:54
Jordan Smith
And one of the reasons, yeah,
00:33:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
And they're probably transferring a liability. Mm-hmm.
00:33:57
Jordan Smith
Yeah. And one of the reasons guys take it is because they're so busy running their summer fall business that they just, they know they need to fill their pipeline. And when they get an email saying, Hey, I'll give you 25 grand for this site. They're like, Oh, I need work. Click. Yes. Yes. Click. Yes. And like, they're not doing the due diligence because they're rushed and they don't know to price. And again, not giving them a free pass, but it's the multi-layered nature of of the industry right now. That's driving a lot of this.
00:34:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. So, I mean, remember, I've spoken about it a couple times.
00:34:24
Billy
I think that
00:34:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like, we've we've helped a couple customers that didn't know what an RFP was, basically, how to how to come up with an ah RFP, what information should be in there. And we actually put in there that you should you should put down in your RFP no subcontractors.
00:34:43
The SnowJobs Podcast
Whoever is bidding this has to be the primary on it. And that's, like you guys are saying, that's a huge problem because everybody is...
00:34:50
RICK JAMES
ah not a lot of That's not a lot of contracts, but people get around it.
00:34:54
Putz
But we, you know, we we had one, Jeremy knows, there was a bunch of like schools went in for bit in our town and it was all local.
00:34:54
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
00:35:02
Putz
It was in in the ah RFP. It says you can't have any subcontractors on it. um And that thing there went for, I mean, less than 50% of what it should have went for. And these guys that got it, had it for the three years prior. so they they know what takes.
00:35:17
Putz
And I know what it takes to plow an acre. And they know what, I mean, they've been doing it. Maybe they don't track it. And I mean, My wife went to the bid opening and she's seen their prices and she's like, i don't understand how they can even do it.
00:35:28
Putz
Like, mean, the salt cost alone, like, and and that's, that's a local contractor working for a local district, not subbing it out and just doing it to say they got it.
00:35:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, how are they doing it?
00:35:40
Putz
I mean,
00:35:41
The SnowJobs Podcast
Have you ever asked them? Like, how? Like, I would be the first one lining up.
00:35:44
RICK JAMES
They don't like us. They don't like us.
00:35:46
The SnowJobs Podcast
If somebody can... Oh. oh I'm just saying, like, I've said that once this month, too.
00:35:50
Jordan Smith
Thank you.
00:35:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like, okay, somebody showed me a price, and they said this is what they're going to do this site at. and And I'm like, if they have the same insurance we do, and they have the same scope of work and same level of service and all things are apples to apples, then...
00:36:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
If they perform this year, i will be the first one calling them on April 1st saying, I obviously know nothing about business. How the fuck are you making money on this?
00:36:16
Putz
Right.
00:36:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
Show me. Show me how to do what you do because that is insane. But as it played out, they did not have what we had. And that's you know that's a that's usually you that's usually what you find when you actually dig deep into these low balls is something is not equal.
00:36:34
The SnowJobs Podcast
They're not bidding the same thing you are They don't have the same stuff you do They're not paying for the same insurance you are It's a lot of that crap um Anybody else got anything? What's what's what's causing this?
00:36:47
Billy
I mean, kind of like what Jordan said is I think that clients are relying on like the the inexperienced and uneducated contractors out there that are
00:36:48
Jordan Smith
I think, oh, go ahead.
00:36:59
Billy
essentially setting the wrong standard for our work, the type of work that we do, how hard it is. Like they're, they're taking advantage of that. and essentially as the contractor, they're youre either allowing themselves to be pimped out or they're simply
Quality vs. Price Misconceptions
00:37:18
Billy
taking on sites at the lowest dollar and still considering it a win.
00:37:18
Putz
Thank you.
00:37:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
hundred percent
00:37:23
Billy
And there's a lot of that going on.
00:37:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
100%.
00:37:24
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:37:24
Billy
You can't, you can't consider, you know, taking something, you know,
00:37:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, tremendous.
00:37:31
Billy
at the lowest dollar and feel like you won the lottery. It doesn't add up. Well, the phrase goes to, I mean, um um how much quality are you going to at the lowest price? Like I shop at the Dollar Tree.
00:37:44
Billy
I mean, I wouldn't buy a filet mignon there. Right. You know what I mean? We're putting, know, you guys, I see what you guys have. I mean, we're putting, you know, state of the art iron on these sites and technology and investing in your site, but you don't want to invest in us. I mean, we're getting, you know, Speedway gas station prices to plow your lot, but then you see what goes there in the middle of winter sites, not stay that you see a loader that looks like had bullet holes from the pre-war seventies, no windows. And then you wonder,
00:38:14
Billy
how are these guys even attaining operators for this? I mean, these machines don't even look like they have heat. I'd love to, I can put anybody in a heated machine, let's go, right?
00:38:20
RICK JAMES
Great.
00:38:23
Billy
But it's just, it's so it all folds into uneducated and maybe the customer wants to just beat it down because ah you know they're paying high prices. But if if if you want shitty service, there you go.
00:38:37
Billy
If you want high quality service, you're gonna have to pay one of us to do it, right?
00:38:42
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:38:42
Brandon Reilly
You think some of it could be like these companies that have lot of salespeople in their sales force.
00:38:42
The SnowJobs Podcast
I mean,
00:38:46
Brandon Reilly
It's more of like reaching a commission goal or reaching a number. So they don't really care necessarily about what the account's doing. just about the number, right? So if I'm making commission and I sell the account for 40,000 or 80,000, it doesn't make, I'm still, I'm going to make commission at 40.
00:38:59
Brandon Reilly
I'm to make commission at 80. But if they want to make sure they get it, they're low balling it to ensure that they get their commission.
00:39:02
Billy
Oh,
00:39:07
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure.
00:39:07
Billy
yeah.
00:39:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
That can definitely happen.
00:39:09
RICK JAMES
Yeah, but then they need to be held accountable when that place fails too.
00:39:12
Billy
Right.
00:39:13
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
00:39:13
RICK JAMES
are they Are they being held accountable?
00:39:14
Brandon Reilly
The worst part they get it back.
00:39:16
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:39:17
Brandon Reilly
They can throw, and then they'll get it back.
00:39:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
they're they're not they're They're not held accountable, though.
00:39:20
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
00:39:21
RICK JAMES
Only even like Josh. No, I don't know. Does anybody get held accountable anymore?
00:39:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, I mean, listen, there are there are nationals out there that have, their contractors on sites have failed. They've had to pay $100,000 for another company go in bail them out, and yet they get the site back.
00:39:39
RICK JAMES
And they let them back in. Yeah, exactly.
00:39:41
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's like, that there's nothing more fucking ridiculous than that.
00:39:42
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:39:42
Putz
them.
00:39:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
But it happens.
00:39:46
Billy
So what would happen, and and we and I say this all the time, what and I won't use any names, but let's say a chain retailer.
00:39:47
RICK JAMES
Right.
00:39:55
Billy
Doesn't matter which one. And everybody said no. And then when that retailer has a snow event in 50 different markets, and all of a sudden you got to go back to that one certain person that holds that contract, you have somebody answer. Nobody showed up.
00:40:11
Billy
Well, nobody took the contract.
00:40:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
Problem is nobody you're never going to get everybody to say no.
00:40:16
Billy
ah No, going to say no. No. You're always going to have that one person that's going to take it regardless.
00:40:21
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. Listen.
00:40:22
Brandon Reilly
Well, and it's not even the one person. It's just the fact that you're going to have the divisions, the bright views, the U.S. s lawns, the, you know, you name it. They're all they're always going to take it because it's it's it's money to them whether they get snow or not. you They can fail and they'll still pick up accounts.
00:40:37
Brandon Reilly
they They do it all the time.
00:40:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
Dude, so... Somebody sent me prices for Cumberland Farms chain in New Hampshire that plowing three inch three inches, every pass, three inches, $70.
00:40:39
Billy
That's all it is for the whole point.
00:40:39
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:40:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
You get a three-inch storm, you' plowing the fucking Cumberland Farms with that kind of traffic and liability for $70.
00:40:50
RICK JAMES
but
00:40:51
Billy
35
00:40:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
And people are doing it.
00:40:55
Billy
is about our prize.
00:40:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
So, I mean, what are we even talking about?
00:40:57
Billy
Okay.
00:40:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like, there's always going to be a moron that'll say yes to whatever low-ass price you give them.
00:41:01
Jordan Smith
Mm-hmm.
00:41:04
The SnowJobs Podcast
$70 isn't even putting half a tank of fuel in my truck.
00:41:08
Jordan Smith
Well, and i think I think to work to work off of what Angela said too, like the the standards, right? We talk about standards a lot and our industry lacks standards. Really simple analogy. A friend of mine's son recently started an auto repair shop. He's worked in an auto repair shop forever, started his own auto repair shop. And he was telling me how he's making great money and how it's easy because he bought a manual, right?
00:41:36
Jordan Smith
that has every make and model of every car and it has every possible repair you can do from ah you know changing a sensor to changing an engine, right? And in that manual, it says, as long as you have the proper tools and the proper setup, here's so many hours it's gonna take you to do that repair.
00:41:50
Jordan Smith
And he knows what hourly rate he needs to charge to make the kind of money he wants to make. And he applies that hourly rate to that. This manual also has a list of parts he's got to buy. He gets a price from his vendor, like the easy buttons done for him. And I'm not discrediting this kid. I'm super happy for him. He's doing great.
00:42:05
Jordan Smith
But like that standard is there for that industry. that there's There's thousands of repair shops using that manual saying this is a 14 hour job.
00:42:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. Nothing for us.
00:42:11
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:42:13
Jordan Smith
And sure, if you're a great mechanic, you can do it in eight, you're still charging 14 hours for that job because that's what the job is worth. Right?
00:42:19
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:42:19
Jordan Smith
It's like that analogy about the guy who fixes the engine on the ship. He taps it with a little thing. It takes five minutes. He charges 50 grand. And they said, well, how can you charge 50 grand for five minutes?
00:42:28
Brandon Reilly
I
00:42:28
Jordan Smith
It's because i'm I'm good at what I do. It's the experience I've gained over the last 30 years of doing what I do.
00:42:30
Billy
knowledge.
00:42:31
Putz
Thank
00:42:33
Jordan Smith
And that's where the value is. It's not in a set hourly rate. It's not in a set contract price. it's It's in the quality of work and what we've invested in doing it. and But we don't have those standards or those manuals to work off of. And that's something that I think if we could work towards creating those as and as an industry, we could we could change things faster.
00:42:53
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:42:54
Brandon Reilly
Which is crazy because everything in our industry is super expensive. You look at electricians, plumbers. I mean, the stuff that they're carrying around to a job site is very minimal, not diminishing what they do, but it's very minimal. And then you look at, you know, what we're putting on a $250,000 loader on the site to plow it. And you're lucky if you get $140 an hour.
00:43:11
Brandon Reilly
you know forty dollars an hour and and And obviously the markets are different. If you go to the East Coast, you you you know you can get those lucky numbers that that Steve speaks of, but that's just not real.
00:43:22
Jordan Smith
Oh.
00:43:24
RICK JAMES
Not here.
00:43:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's not there.
00:43:25
RICK JAMES
comema here. Yeah.
00:43:26
The SnowJobs Podcast
Not there. You guys do too many events, I guess.
00:43:27
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:43:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
and And I think that has a lot to do with it is you have a lot higher on a normal year. Don't you have like, aren't your events in the thirties and forties?
00:43:37
Billy
Thank
00:43:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
So like we're half that on a great year last year, I think we were at 21 total.
00:43:39
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:43:44
The SnowJobs Podcast
So, and that was a, that was a great event year for us. So, I mean, the hourly is going to be the hourly rates going to be higher because we need to make the same margins as you there.
00:43:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
So, I mean, it's got to be for for half. If I only have half the events, I have to charge, you know, that much more to make up that difference. So I think that's that's what I get from from the guys in the Midwest that have a ton of events is they can't possibly pay that. It it would be astronomical for customers. So that's why the prices are are a little bit lower, I think.
00:44:15
RICK JAMES
I'd say part of the problem or another problem we have is, which everybody has in every market, I believe is you know Some contractors don't like each other, so they're going to undercut this contractor just because they don't like him.
00:44:27
RICK JAMES
We have that in our town.
00:44:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
Nope.
00:44:28
RICK JAMES
We also have contractors that, oh, I want to get that chain store because for some reason they think it's going to be cool just to have that chain store. it's I mean, it's not that cool, believe me, to have that chain store.
00:44:40
Putz
Yeah.
00:44:41
RICK JAMES
not not Not for that price and the liability. Yeah. Go get it. Go get it at a half price and take all that on if you want. i mean, it's, it doesn't, i don't know. To me, it doesn't do anything good about it. Just the hatred for contractors have for you. Some contractors have. They'll do whatever they get can, can do to take that account and go get it.
00:45:02
The SnowJobs Podcast
Absolutely.
00:45:03
Jordan Smith
Well, and I think guys, that like back to what we were talking about with the the multi-layered broker subcontracted model, is there is some burden of proof in the idea that simple drives action.
Standardizing Snow Job Pricing
00:45:20
Jordan Smith
so So getting a simple email or phone call saying, we offer you this price for this account. All you have to do is click yes.
00:45:26
Jordan Smith
That incites action, right? So how do we create that model at the right pricing. And I'm gonna spitball an idea. This is something that I think I briefly talked to to Steve about. Maybe Jeremy was in that chat too.
00:45:42
Jordan Smith
But I want feedback from the rest of you guys and from Snow Jobs Nation, but it's probably a tall task, but what if we could create um like a free online database.
00:45:52
Jordan Smith
Like what if, you know when you look up home values, you use Zillow and you look up the Zestimate or whatever, you click on a house and it says approximate value 800,000.
00:45:58
The SnowJobs Podcast
Nope.
00:45:58
Brandon Reilly
Thank you.
00:46:01
Jordan Smith
And it's not dead on, but it's in the ballpark, right? What we're trying to do with Snow is get it in the ballpark. Cause 20,000 is not in the ballpark of a hundred thousand. that's That's an 80% difference. That's not in the ballpark, right?
00:46:13
Jordan Smith
um So, you know, you with with AI now and technology and AI doing takeoffs, like, Can you build a ah snow estimate where you go on this free tool, you put in an address and says this site should be between 100 120,000 bucks.
00:46:28
Jordan Smith
Now the $30,000 guy is like, whoa, I'm not doing 30. This thing says I'm 100 to 120. I'm way off. I got at least, you know, even if I want to undercut, I at least got to be at 80. You know, is that and is that a possibility?
00:46:38
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
00:46:39
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:46:40
Jordan Smith
I don't know. I think it could be.
00:46:42
The SnowJobs Podcast
I think it would help. I definitely think it would help.
00:46:43
Billy
and oh But I mean, but just
00:46:44
Jordan Smith
It can't hurt.
00:46:46
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, it can't hurt.
00:46:47
Billy
just a little reasonable financial acumen for some overhead recovery can give you something close. I mean, I think all five of us or six of us have just said the the range is just out of control. So I think with that tool would be helpful, but,
00:47:05
Billy
I wonder, did these people go to like, you know, the gentleman I spoke of earlier won't mention his name. I don't even know the guy. He just came to me. Hey, I picked up a Lowe's. I'm getting $19,000 for it. I'm going to clear $10,000 for it.
00:47:16
Billy
The guy's willing to pay him $200 for salt. By the way, salt's $110. You can check for Matt from Clippers, whatever. It's expensive. And he thinks he's going to make money. I said, sir, you're not going to make, that's a loss. And you might not even get paid from this guy.
00:47:29
Billy
But i um I almost wanted to say, not trying to be mean, but do you have any financial acumen? anything at all.
00:47:35
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:47:35
Billy
Like did, did you have just basic math because how are going plow off six, eight, seven acre site and think you're going to clear 10 grand by the end of the year?
00:47:46
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's incredible. Okay.
00:47:46
Billy
You know what i'm saying?
00:47:47
Brandon Reilly
Do you think they just look at it? They just like bird's eye view, look at and be like, that's not that bad. We can do that for nine grand.
00:47:53
Billy
Oh yeah.
00:47:53
Brandon Reilly
returned
00:47:54
Billy
But I mean,
00:47:55
Brandon Reilly
Instead of like measuring it and looking into it and to putting in the work to produce the actual number.
00:48:05
Billy
I think everyone will help.
00:48:05
RICK JAMES
And even even like you just said, Brandon, doing all that, that should be included in your price because, your ear you know, you you know you that time time is money.
00:48:10
Brandon Reilly
Yeah, it takes time.
00:48:12
RICK JAMES
So, I mean, that's what they don't think either. you You got to factor in all these different things that nobody – a lot of guys just forget about plow staking. They forget about checking lots. They forget about, you know, all that stuff.
00:48:23
RICK JAMES
And all that stuff takes time and money. so
00:48:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
They forget about the 12 hours it takes to put together a proper bid package and and get ready for a bid presentation meeting.
00:48:31
RICK JAMES
Exactly. Exactly.
00:48:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
um Yeah, I mean, that's all that's all time lost if you don't have that factored in to somehow recover that money or that those hours.
00:48:39
Billy
Thank you.
00:48:42
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, I think Jeremy's right. Like, a lot of people just don't think about that stuff. I actually met a kid... um last week Last week or the week before. Extremely nice kid. Young, hungry, hardworking. um He's the first one to say, I don't know how to price snow.
00:49:00
The SnowJobs Podcast
um I said, well, how did you figure out you know what to do this year? He says, I asked another contractor. And I'm like, well, don't ask that guy any anymore about anything because he's way, way low.
00:49:12
Billy
Right.
00:49:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
You're leaving so much money on the table, dude. So be careful who you ask for fucking advice because he has no idea what what the local market tolerance is for that type of site. And you you you won the bid, but you could have won the bid for 40% more than what you bid it at and still won.
00:49:30
The SnowJobs Podcast
So you left a lot of money on the table there. But, you know, that's the problem. Like, even the young guys that don't know and are trying to reach out, if they reach out to the wrong idiot, you know, they're they're back, right back where they started. They would have been better off just coming up with their own fucking price.
00:49:47
The SnowJobs Podcast
I don't know.
00:49:47
Billy
I do like the the concept of what Jordan was talking about, and I think it would be pretty educational on the client end as well, because then that gives them a more realistic expectation or idea of where the pricing should be at and what they should be paying, you know, to have their property.
00:49:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
Absolutely.
00:50:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
Absolutely.
00:50:05
Putz
I agree.
00:50:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
And I think the more is actually just named it for you to snow Stradamus.
00:50:05
Billy
There
00:50:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
There it is. That's it.
00:50:09
Billy
you go. yeah
00:50:10
RICK JAMES
go There you go.
00:50:10
Jordan Smith
That's true.
00:50:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
Done.
00:50:11
Jordan Smith
That's a great name.
00:50:12
RICK JAMES
That is a great name.
00:50:12
Billy
It really is. Yeah.
00:50:14
Jordan Smith
whatever, whatever it is, guys, it has to be simple.
00:50:14
RICK JAMES
but
00:50:17
Jordan Smith
Like that's what I'm learning more and more.
00:50:19
Billy
Right.
00:50:20
Jordan Smith
Cause I, you know, I've traveled, I've traveled around for over a decade, like working with snow companies and I'm not the foremost expert, but I've seen a lot.
00:50:20
Billy
Give it dummy proof. Yeah.
00:50:29
Jordan Smith
And like, The more complicated, you can you can create a complex spreadsheet for someone to plug in all their overhead and all their costs and all their stuff, and it's cool and they think it's neat, but they're never gonna use it because it's complicated.
00:50:41
Jordan Smith
It has to be simple.
00:50:42
Brandon Reilly
Yep. Yep.
00:50:42
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm.
00:50:42
Jordan Smith
And that I still believe is why the broker model works well because it's simple to accept the price
00:50:43
Billy
yeah
00:50:50
Jordan Smith
It's lazy, but it's simple. And it's not always lazy.
00:50:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure.
00:50:52
Jordan Smith
Some of these owner operators, they work 90 hours a week just to survive. And then they're supposed to sit down and do a 12 hour RFP. No, it's not going to happen. They're going to take the price that's in their email inbox. They just are. And again, I'm not trying to give excuses, but it's true.
00:51:06
Jordan Smith
Has to be simple. Has to be repeatable. Has to be adoptable by everyone. It can't be an $8,000 piece of software. Like it just has to be simple. And that's where kind of the Zillow concept came to mind for me is like,
00:51:18
Billy
So let's say that concept did come to fruition. What would that do to the to the brokers?
00:51:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
I don't think it would do anything to the brokers because what they're targeting, I don't think those companies even care.
00:51:34
Brandon Reilly
was going to say, I don't think that matters because on a a national ah RFP for like these large retailers, it's red, yellow, and green.
00:51:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:51:41
Billy
don't it's a difference in that aspect.
00:51:42
The SnowJobs Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:51:42
Brandon Reilly
And it's a multi-phase bid cycle back and forth. If they don't get the numbers they want, they reopen the bid cycle or the RFP, and they do it all over again until they get the number they want.
00:51:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:51:51
Brandon Reilly
And you know as you're sitting watching this number where you need it to be and you're sitting there going, well, I'm going to lose it, okay, I'm in the yellow. ah Maybe if you have a good enough rapport, you can keep it at yellow.
00:51:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:52:01
Brandon Reilly
Green, you got it, but normally green is the lowest number.
00:52:06
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. Have you heard of this, uh, this new tactic that some chains are doing that they're doing auctions basically like they get all the, the five closest contractors on a zoom call and they say, all right, here's the price.
00:52:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
Uh, here's the price we're looking for. Who's who wants it? Who's going to lower their price? Who told us about that? Jeremy was, was it triple J was triple J.
00:52:24
Billy
They've been doing that for a while.
00:52:24
RICK JAMES
Yeah, we heard about that like a year or two ago.
00:52:25
Billy
It's sweeping.
00:52:27
Brandon Reilly
sounds terrible.
00:52:27
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:52:28
Billy
but
00:52:28
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:52:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, I think it was i think it
00:52:29
RICK JAMES
Yeah. We heard about it. Yeah. We heard about that. It's been a while. Yeah. We heard about a while ago, I thought.
00:52:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
and think it was Triple J told us, yeah, they get you on a Zoom call and they say, hey, you guys are the closest ones to this, but you're all too high.
00:52:33
RICK JAMES
but Yeah.
00:52:41
The SnowJobs Podcast
So who's going to drop down $22,000 and get to that number we want? And it's like, you know, who's basically, who's desperate enough to do it?
00:52:47
RICK JAMES
hold
00:52:49
Billy
They've been doing that in sweeping for years now with the grocery store.
00:52:49
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:52:52
Brandon Reilly
Oh, sweeping's insane.
00:52:54
Billy
And my buddy, he got out of all parking last week. He makes his money off road construction. So he sold off his, his parking lot sweeping. That was non-profitable at all. And he said like Kroger would literally bring in three guys and say, you know, just kill each other for the cheapest bid.
00:53:08
Billy
And he's like, you would walk away and say, fuck this.
00:53:10
RICK JAMES
right.
00:53:10
Billy
I'm out. Like, he's he's not dumb. He's like, I'm not doing this for an anymore. Like, it's not, not even, it's just dumb.
00:53:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. Enter the Coliseum gladiators.
00:53:18
Billy
And who wants to be known as the guy anyway?
00:53:19
Brandon Reilly
crazy.
00:53:20
Billy
Like, I don't understand that. Like, like the
00:53:23
Brandon Reilly
Sweeping numbers are insane. like for for nationally we We got out of it in 2019 when the numbers hit $25 a sweep. The sweeper costs $200,000.
00:53:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
What?
00:53:33
Brandon Reilly
You have to get it sorted and dumped into special space, and it goes for $25 a sweep.
00:53:39
The SnowJobs Podcast
Buy a fucking broom.
00:53:40
Brandon Reilly
not it Not at a national like discount.
00:53:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
Hmm.
00:53:42
Brandon Reilly
like That's what retailers are giving it out for. That's where the price is at. You're lucky if you can get $75, maybe $80 if you're lucky. The number is terrible.
00:53:53
RICK JAMES
No chance.
00:53:53
Billy
Oh, yes, we'd be terrible.
00:53:54
Brandon Reilly
And that's why no one sweeps actually the way they're supposed to anymore. Now they just hire a guy with a pickup truck to go hand-poured or garbage.
00:53:59
Billy
Right.
00:54:00
Putz
Oh.
00:54:00
Jordan Smith
Exactly. That's what it's become. I remember when we used to have Lowe's in town, ah the last couple of years of the, I think it was divisions contract with Lowe's or maybe was Ferrandino and son. Doesn't matter. It one of them.
00:54:12
Jordan Smith
Literally was a guy with a, with yeah, a guy with a dustpan and a broom sweeping the curb line trash up.
00:54:13
RICK JAMES
Same thing.
00:54:13
The SnowJobs Podcast
Same circus, different clowns.
00:54:18
Jordan Smith
And that's what the sweeping service was.
00:54:20
Brandon Reilly
Yep.
00:54:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
Jesus.
00:54:21
Brandon Reilly
Even on the RFP, it says you have to have a mechanical-driven sweeper.
00:54:22
Jordan Smith
70 bucks a time.
00:54:26
Jordan Smith
Yeah. No one audits that stuff.
00:54:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
God. So what do you guys what do you guys feel like, what strategies would you guys recommend to guys, if any, to be able to help combat lowball or slowball bids that they're up against?
Strategies to Combat Lowballing
00:54:43
Billy
Say no.
00:54:43
The SnowJobs Podcast
there anything they can do?
00:54:44
Billy
Yeah. just say Say no to drugs. ah
00:54:47
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
00:54:47
Billy
okay
00:54:47
Brandon Reilly
We walked away a lot this year.
00:54:48
RICK JAMES
Like you always say, like you like you always say, Steve, never take that first press. Never take the first press.
00:54:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, especially not if they're emailing you and it's got a button for a counter offer right on it.
00:54:59
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:54:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, that's like the dumbest thing ever.
00:54:59
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:55:01
The SnowJobs Podcast
If you click accept without a counter.
00:55:04
RICK JAMES
a
00:55:04
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, my God. If there was a negotiation room, they wouldn't put a counter button there, jackass. Like, who is clicking yes? I'll take it for that first offer. Jesus
00:55:14
Jordan Smith
i think I think part of it, you know, I generally tend to be a collaborative person. That's what I try to do. um Although Metal Plus doesn't agree with that, I guess. But I...
00:55:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
Christ.
00:55:25
Brandon Reilly
Thank you.
00:55:26
Jordan Smith
i I like the the power of just networking with your local competitors. Like you're not gonna network with everyone, right? Like there was years, especially when i used to landscape, there was years guys in town couldn't stand me, wouldn't talk to me.
00:55:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, I agree.
00:55:39
Jordan Smith
But um over the course of time, like talk to them about what they're doing, what they're pricing. And they're not gonna give you all their secrets. But like like I said, you know Dustin and i for many years, we were direct competitors and we we got along fine, but we were fighting for the same work all the time.
00:55:54
Jordan Smith
And we finally got to a point where it's like There's plenty of work to go around. Let's just talk and and let's see where we're at and make sure we're both on the same page. And and you know now he's got some insight into a couple other guys in town.
00:56:06
Jordan Smith
and I've got some insight into a couple other guys in town. We have a pretty good pulse on where things are at.
00:56:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
Amen.
00:56:10
Jordan Smith
And we're not adjusting our pricing based on that pulse. We're still holding our pricing because we have a pricing model that we like. But some of the guys who don't have that yet, like... if if If a new guy in town in Mankato here were to come and talk to me and say like, hey, I'm bidding the site.
00:56:21
Putz
Thank
00:56:25
Jordan Smith
that you know I think you work at the site. Sorry about that. I just, you know, um I'd work through it with him. And i know that's maybe not normal, but I like I want to help guys out. And it if everyone's bidding closer together, it's better for everyone.
00:56:37
Jordan Smith
It's just snow guys should collaborate.
00:56:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah man Absolutely.
00:56:39
Billy
But something is like, is it really a secret? is Is what we do really a secret?
00:56:42
Jordan Smith
No.
00:56:42
The SnowJobs Podcast
What? No!
00:56:44
Billy
Like, and and people say, like, I hear this all the time.
00:56:45
RICK JAMES
No.
00:56:46
Billy
Like, well, I'm not giving you secret. What is the secret? We push snow from one end to a fucking parking lot to the next.
00:56:51
Putz
Yeah.
00:56:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yes. Left to right repeat.
00:56:53
Billy
We de-ice it in some form.
00:56:54
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:56:55
Brandon Reilly
Same material, same equipment.
00:56:55
Billy
with Yeah, like you're spending, give or take, we're all paying the general labor rate and the salt rates.
00:56:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's it.
00:56:58
RICK JAMES
It's not rocket surgery.
00:57:03
Billy
You know, I mean, depending on what region, it's relatively the same.
00:57:07
The SnowJobs Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:57:08
Billy
but Is there really a secret that I'm i'm missing out? I just don't understand who wants to be known as who we're bitching about. I mean, everybody has somebody in mind at this moment who is the culprit. And you're thinking, you really want to be known as the cheap guy?
00:57:22
Billy
I mean, you want to be known as Louis Vuitton or you want to be known as junk?
00:57:23
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:57:28
Billy
taking people's work.
00:57:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:57:28
RICK JAMES
I love the guys that
00:57:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
Amen. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:57:29
Billy
We have to provide infrastructure to grow for the, obviously the tenure of, you know, our business and your business and your business, our people, they deserve more than minimum wage. So they have to feed their families to have these weird hours and work in extreme conditions.
00:57:45
Billy
But at the rates that you're bidding, it doesn't even allow for, but you know, proper infrastructure scaling just within your own organization, or even just taking care of your people. the right way.
00:57:56
Billy
yeah I mean, how do you even buy company jackets at 60% cheaper than Brandon or Bill or Jeremy? You can't even get a hat, you know?
00:58:04
RICK JAMES
have I love the guys that won't even tell you the sights they have. Like, you know, I'm going to see you in the first storm.
00:58:10
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's secret.
00:58:11
Billy
Right.
00:58:11
RICK JAMES
Your equipment's going to be out there, right?
00:58:11
Billy
It's going to be like James Bond.
00:58:13
RICK JAMES
I mean, know what the big secret is.
00:58:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, it's camouflage.
00:58:15
RICK JAMES
Just, just it's not, it's not a secret. Like, bills are pushing snow from one end and the other. Nothing special.
00:58:21
Brandon Reilly
The worst part it's not always a young person that's coming in and low-balling. It's established companies that are low-balling.
00:58:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
No. Yeah.
00:58:27
RICK JAMES
Yes. Yes.
00:58:28
Brandon Reilly
And it's like, you guys have been doing this for 20 years and you're coming in 50% less just because you got the two buildings next you, so you're going to go 50% less on the middle building?
00:58:28
Putz
Right.
00:58:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:58:30
Billy
What the fuck are you doing?
00:58:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
Makes no sense.
00:58:38
Brandon Reilly
Makes no sense.
00:58:39
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's when I go 10% less. That's sharpening pencil to get that. I'm not going 50. That's the dumbest thing. Me and Jeremy heard that from a friend of ours. A friend of ours actually said that, and we both like lost our shit. like That is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. that Oh, well, we have two properties right next to it, so we're doing this one for like pennies on the dollar. Fuck that.
00:59:02
Brandon Reilly
Oh.
00:59:02
RICK JAMES
Because we don't want somebody to sneak in there, you know, like, yeah.
00:59:04
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, like, oh, yeah, we don't want to have them hit the beachhead, and you know then we lose all three properties.
00:59:06
RICK JAMES
you
00:59:09
Billy
you
00:59:10
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's like the dumbest freaking rationale you could think of. um The only thing that that I have found that works, and it might not work with everybody on ah on different types of properties. I know um I've talked to Sean down in Jersey, and he says it's very tough to get in front of people.
00:59:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
request whatever you have to do. Try and request a bid presentation meeting. Get a chance to get in front of them and show them your bid. Explain to them why your company is different, why your service is different. And if they'll let you just compare apples to apples going down the list with the other bids and just show them what your company is bidding on specifically and how it may be different from the guy that's 70%
Importance of Bid Presentation Meetings
00:59:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
cheaper.
00:59:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
And very quickly, if you're that far apart, It doesn't take much to figure out where the holes are in that other bid. So whatever you can do to get in front of them, what's up?
01:00:03
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm. Invite them to your shop.
01:00:06
Putz
Yeah, would say this.
01:00:06
RICK JAMES
Invite them to your shop.
01:00:07
Billy
Yeah.
01:00:07
RICK JAMES
yeah
01:00:07
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:00:07
Putz
Yeah, for sure.
01:00:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
Buy them lunch, you know, whatever needs to happen, whatever you can do to be able to present that bid to a decision maker and explain it.
01:00:08
Billy
Educating the the client.
01:00:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
Show them your costs. You'll say, I don't know how this guy's doing it. Here's my cost. You know, we're using the same trucks, the same machines, or maybe we're not. You know, if that's the thing, you know, if he's doing it with a quad and a fucking plow and you're going to need two loaders in there, you can have a little bit different pricing, I bet.
01:00:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
off get a bid presentation meeting if at all possible it might not be possible to get in front of people i've heard it's i've heard it's been very difficult this year for a lot of guys to even get a call back about a bid let alone get in front of somebody that makes decisions it's not worth the time
01:00:43
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
01:00:47
Billy
But if they're not willing to meet with you, they're not, you know, at least give you five minutes. and it's it's they're just It's a shopping
Service Failures and Client Expectations
01:00:53
Billy
anyway. I mean, and that's where, you know, on the what we've talked about is the guys that are doing it, but I think we touched on it.
01:00:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
yep i don't want tire kickers
01:00:54
RICK JAMES
and
01:01:01
Billy
is we need to educate the customer that are willing to be educated. Like you wonder why service fails.
01:01:04
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:01:06
Billy
This is, I'll give you a case, a real quick example. The last company was salting me, you know, 50 times during a 50 degrees on a Sunday, three times, you know, just ripping me off.
01:01:17
Billy
However, your price is too high. Hold on. You're getting ripped off. You don't like that, but the right price to get appropriate service is bad too.
01:01:29
Billy
How's that work? Let me educate you. You know, it's it's just the craziest things run through these.
01:01:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:01:35
Billy
my They're just as dumb as the other people.
01:01:37
Brandon Reilly
I was going to say the the spec RFP too, like is so lacking in a lot of places of like to give you an apples to apples bids, because obviously a zero tolerance to a one inch and all those different things, like the price can vary drastically.
01:01:37
Billy
I don't
01:01:43
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yes.
01:01:43
Billy
know.
01:01:43
The SnowJobs Podcast
100%.
01:01:51
Brandon Reilly
And so if I'm giving you a zero of tolerance and let's say you know, at a hundred thousand, but he bid it as a one inch and it's 50,000, that could be the difference. But you, you weren't clear in what you were actually looking for.
01:02:02
Brandon Reilly
I could,
01:02:03
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah percent
01:02:03
Brandon Reilly
come up with a one-inch trigger for you as well. It might be 80,000. You know what i mean? It's just, but these numbers are crazy in terms of like these managers that have been doing it for a long time that don't have a spectrum. And like you said, how many saltings are you are you projecting? How many are you wanting? Or what is the tolerance you're looking for you for your for your sidewalks, for your parking lot?
01:02:22
Brandon Reilly
Are you looking for re-freeze checks to be in there? all All of it. Like where's all the information? And when you ask some of these questions, sometimes you get like the blank like back, like, oh, just looking for snow removal.
01:02:33
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
01:02:34
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, yeah, they don't know what they don't know.
01:02:34
RICK JAMES
Or
01:02:35
Billy
Well, it's back to, uh, she ran into this with, we won't mention the client or the ah thing, but, uh, she asked a few questions. Go ahead tell him about the app service.
01:02:48
Billy
Oh, I asked a few questions about the app service. They were, um, they had mentioned that they wanted, um a certain minimum requirement of photos taken before and after.
01:03:01
Brandon Reilly
Bye.
01:03:03
Billy
And it was just a general, like a few, you know, and then i'm like, okay, well, does the app have translation? Like bilingual our guys need to be able to, it needs to be bilingual. Our guys need to be able to understand it and, you know, function within the app.
01:03:22
Billy
No. Okay. Well, a few before and after photos, and I said like literally a few before and after, so we're talking like two, three.
01:03:35
Billy
No, minimum of 10 before and minimum of 10 after.
01:03:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
then fucking put that don't put a few but
01:03:42
Billy
So you're setting us up for failure.
01:03:43
RICK JAMES
They want you to
01:03:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah exactly
01:03:46
Billy
You're going to wait until we get to the site, send our guys. They bust their fucking asses all night. And then we don't get paid because you went through and decided, well, you didn't like how we did this or you didn't like how we did that.
01:03:59
Billy
Fuck off. Yeah. As soon as we took the site, we rejected it in 20 hours later. Just like we're not playing this game. And then you don't offer bilingual.
01:04:06
RICK JAMES
Yeah. Yeah.
01:04:07
Billy
How does that work? How does it, I mean, Jesus is going to have a problem. he's He's one of the best plow operators out there, you know, but next to all of our guys. And you're going to say, well, you know, he he took a picture of himself on accident.
01:04:21
Billy
What? I'm not going to fight with you in January because it'll get nasty, you know.
01:04:26
Brandon Reilly
Was that the client or was that through a different, like a broker?
01:04:31
Billy
Uh, it was Not the client itself. No.
01:04:34
Brandon Reilly
Okay. Gotcha.
01:04:35
Billy
Just happened to be, we tested the water just to see what it was like.
01:04:38
Brandon Reilly
Gotcha.
01:04:38
Billy
Boy, but that got what? Rejected in literally 24 hours. Yeah. No, thank you. Sorry. um was very professional about it, but. She was.
01:04:48
Brandon Reilly
Because I do know like i like direct clients do require before and after photos.
01:04:52
Billy
I have no problem with that.
01:04:53
Brandon Reilly
the
01:04:54
Billy
No.
01:04:54
Brandon Reilly
But the app does have... bilingual, you know, applications to it for a lot of clients that we use. And, but yeah, we have to take, they don't, they don't specify, but it's an open PM for the entire month. And every time you service, you have to do befores and afters every single time. And it puts it into their database of their app and and whatnot. And so it it builds up, you know, you can end up with 175 photos in one month for one site.
01:05:20
Billy
See, we have no issue with that. Like, I mean, we use site photos and we have no issue with that.
01:05:23
Brandon Reilly
Yep.
01:05:25
Billy
We do it for sites that don't even require it just for back end documentation.
01:05:27
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
01:05:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, absolutely.
01:05:29
Billy
Right.
01:05:30
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
01:05:30
The SnowJobs Podcast
We do it.
01:05:31
Billy
But I mean, but I'm sorry, our guys after busting their asses, they're not going to be standing out in the cold, taking more than 10 fucking before pictures and 10 after pictures, minimum of 10, like,
01:05:31
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep, absolutely.
01:05:44
Billy
No, but that was the point to Brandon. Like, just say what, you know, tell me what you're looking for.
01:05:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yes, exactly.
01:05:49
Billy
right i was so open It was so bad for failure.
01:05:49
Brandon Reilly
Yep.
01:05:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's what saying. If it's minimum of 10, then put minimum of 10.
01:05:52
Billy
They don't even know. So.
01:05:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
Don't say a few.
01:05:55
Billy
Right.
01:05:56
RICK JAMES
They don't want to because they want to not pay you say you didn't take enough.
01:05:57
Billy
Exactly. Right. Right. 652 photos they wanted before 900 on app.
01:05:58
RICK JAMES
That's what it is.
01:05:58
Brandon Reilly
Yeah, because if you said a few, i would think like main drive, main parking lot, loading dock in the rear of the store.
01:06:00
RICK JAMES
that's
01:06:03
Brandon Reilly
So I would think four photos.
01:06:07
Billy
six hundred and fifty two photos they wanted before
01:06:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
Hmm.
01:06:10
Billy
nine hundred on the app
01:06:11
RICK JAMES
yeah
01:06:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, man.
01:06:12
RICK JAMES
yeah
01:06:14
Billy
They actually want it.
01:06:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
oh
01:06:15
RICK JAMES
ah
01:06:16
Brandon Reilly
that's and That right there is another thing that like I think gets missed too is the app and the admin side of that stuff on the backside that people aren't considering when they're looking at pricing is how much time goes into that.
01:06:24
RICK JAMES
Last time, a lot time.
01:06:26
Brandon Reilly
And fixing it if the guys mess it up and and you know the admin's got to fix it.
01:06:26
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, yeah.
01:06:29
Brandon Reilly
in the ah likege There is so much time into that stuff.
01:06:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's crazy. Let's hit some commercials. We'll come right back and we'll keep going with this.
Pricing Services Correctly
01:07:44
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right, gang, we're back. ah So what what advice would we give to guys who are listening to this right now and are saying to themselves, like, oh, shit, I'm i'm pricing myself at $2,000 an acre in a 50-inch market. You know, shit, they're talking about me.
01:08:01
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like, what advice would you give those guys if if they're willing to listen or they want to they want to learn
01:08:09
Billy
Find a mentor. Talk. I mean, it's been more prevalent now than ever. I mean, just think, you know, I've been doing this for 21 years and you kind of, you didn't know anybody and this and that, but now we have associations and local things or talk to, it doesn't even have to be in the snow industry. I mean, certain people have,
01:08:27
Billy
talk to a a construction guy yeah that knows materials and labor and machines. I mean, just reach out to somebody. I mean, there's nothing wrong with her. Hey, what do you, what are you getting? What do you think I should, I mean, I called Steve the other day, like, Hey, I know you're familiar with stuff like this.
01:08:42
Billy
What do you think I should be? You know, like, what is your thoughts? Here's what I have. You know, I mean, I'm not ashamed to say that, you know, exactly.
01:08:49
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, we help each other. And that's, that's what it's all about.
01:08:53
Billy
pull the networkwork of team I mean, we, not one of us can handle all the work.
01:08:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
And it's never.
01:08:56
Billy
So,
01:08:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
oh
01:08:57
Billy
I think if we team if there was more of us educating each other and helping each other, that would drive it up as to mostly drive it into the ground and then put dirt on it and cement.
01:09:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
And it's never been easier. and And people in your area have never been more accessible than now in this point in history with social media. And, you know, just it's so easy to to find who you're looking for to talk to and get a hold of them.
01:09:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
And I don't know why more guys don't do it. It's I mean, it's there. People are like everybody we've met is willing to talk and help everybody in their area because they know.
01:09:34
The SnowJobs Podcast
And ultimately, it's going to improve their own businesses.
01:09:34
Putz
Thank you.
01:09:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's going to improve their area, their profit margins in their area. I just don't know why more guys are not reaching out yet.
Market Impact of Lowballing
01:09:44
The SnowJobs Podcast
Some of the younger guys are, though. It's happening.
01:09:46
RICK JAMES
Right.
01:09:48
Brandon Reilly
I feel like would also be like just because you have low overhead doesn't mean you have to be the low price.
01:09:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Exactly.
01:09:52
Brandon Reilly
Right? Like try to be like think of think of the future, right?
01:09:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
Exactly. 100%.
01:09:56
Brandon Reilly
If you just started your company, you're a couple years in and you went, hey, I want to be like the big guys. Well, obviously, you can't maintain it at the pricing at the low side. You got to figure out where that number needs to be. And sure, you can undercut, you know, 10, 15% and still make, well, you'd make crazy money with even lower head than the bigger guy.
01:10:12
Brandon Reilly
So just don't cut your feet out.
01:10:13
The SnowJobs Podcast
hundred percent
01:10:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
A younger guy said it to me the other day. He was asking me you know a bunch of questions about what we do, and I've talked to him multiple times. And I'm like, why did you come, just out of curiosity, like what made you come to to me? And he goes, well, i know you're the highest price in the area, so if I'm going to price, you know I figure find out what you're getting.
01:10:36
The SnowJobs Podcast
And even though I have a lot less because he's only got three trucks, He's like, I figure, you know, if you're getting that kind of money, why can't I be in that ballpark? I'm like, that's the game right there. Like find the highest price guy in your area, figure out if he'll let you know what how he's pricing.
01:10:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
And then even if your overhead is low, like you said, Brandon, you're going make more money. Who gives you shit? that's That's the game. Great. Good for you.
01:10:58
RICK JAMES
and That guy's not going to be able to do... a you know He's a smaller guy, so he can't take on all those lots.
01:11:03
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure.
01:11:04
RICK JAMES
He might get one one or two from you, but you'll you'll be all right. i mean That's part of the game. you know you You win some, you lose some. But if it's you're all in the same boat, that's that's just part of it. you know
01:11:14
Brandon Reilly
I mean, I'd rather have one example
01:11:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. Yep.
01:11:15
RICK JAMES
another another Another thing... of Another thing about snowing out days is we're so much more efficient than we ever have been. Our efficiencies and you got price that in.
01:11:22
The SnowJobs Podcast
ye
01:11:24
RICK JAMES
I mean, our costs are way up, but our efficiencies are, you know, or you should be, your efficiencies should be way up for what we're doing. so just as we always say, price accordingly and, you know, get paid for what you're doing.
01:11:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, absolutely. your Your hour is so much more efficient than it used to be, and that price has to reflect that. That hourly price has to reflect that increased efficiency because you're working, in theory, less hours, but getting the same amount of work done.
01:11:43
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
01:11:45
Billy
Oh
01:11:50
The SnowJobs Podcast
So you have to make more in that hour now to make the same profit margin.
01:11:54
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
Maintaining Competitive Pricing
01:11:56
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, I agree with that completely. um what do we What do you feel, you guys, are the short-term and then the longer-term effects of guys just low-balling the crap out of these these all these contracts across the country?
01:12:12
Billy
It's just going to deteriorate the market to fucking nothing.
01:12:15
Putz
Thank
01:12:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
Mm-hmm.
01:12:15
Billy
Essentially. It's what it's going to come down to.
01:12:17
Jordan Smith
Thank you.
01:12:18
Billy
i think, and also I think, you know, it I mean, are you excited about doing it anymore? Right. I mean, it kind of takes a little wind out your sails where it's like, wow, it's cool to see the rollout and get, you know, we've been, we've been ready for like a month and a half. And then all of a sudden it's like, wow, just got my ass kicked by $80,000 this job and 40,000 on that job. And it's eh,
01:12:40
Billy
All right, now it's just like fall cleanups. You do it just to do it.
01:12:44
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, absolutely. Anybody else? Jordan?
01:12:48
Jordan Smith
I think just just going back to the last one real quick, um and it plays into this, but two other, you know ah think utopian world is there some simple tool to look up what the price should be or what fair market price is.
01:12:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:13:01
Jordan Smith
But in the meantime, like pretty two pretty simple things that I've seen help people a lot is get a good pulse on what your average price per acre rate in your market is.
01:13:14
Jordan Smith
It's not a gold standard. Like you hear people talk about 10,000 an acre.
01:13:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:13:18
Jordan Smith
Like there's definitely sites where that's way too cheap. If you if you're at a strip mall with 37 islands and and two acres of sidewalks and enter your courtyard, like that's 10,000 an acre is not enough.
01:13:22
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah
01:13:29
Jordan Smith
I promise you. But like at least do a finger in the air test and see if you're in the ballpark by by figuring out a per acre price.
01:13:33
Putz
Thank you.
01:13:37
Jordan Smith
Most markets in North America are between 8,000 14,000 bucks an acre. Your mileage may vary, more complex, smaller sites, way higher. um Bigger, simpler sites might be in that range, but just use it as a guideline.
01:13:51
Jordan Smith
Then the other thing is, and mentioned earlier how asset recovery is one of the most difficult things to understand. If you don't understand asset recovery, call your local rental yard who rents out heavy equipment, find out what the rental rate for something is and charge that into your pricing.
01:14:02
The SnowJobs Podcast
here
01:14:06
Jordan Smith
Because rental companies know how to make money on equipment and that's what you should be doing as well. So if a skid steer is two grand a month to rent, you should be charging two grand a month on that contract for that skid steer. Like very simply, plus the attachment on top of that, right? Two very simple rules to at least get you closer until there's a more complete option like learning all this stuff or having a tool.
01:14:26
The SnowJobs Podcast
Amen. Puxy, what do you got?
01:14:29
Putz
I think like on the like corporate side of things that you're always going to have those brokers. I mean, like they're like, well, like a Walmart or Walgreens or whatever, they're going keep using those people like they're they're they're just trying to get down to the lowest bid. I mean,
01:14:44
Putz
If everybody collaborates together, you're still gonna have those same, I mean, in our town, it's maybe like six to 10, you know, ah properties that are gonna go for absolutely dirt cheap.
01:14:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure. Mm-hmm.
01:14:56
Putz
But I mean, the biggest thing from there is just say no. I mean, like, we won't, we get email bids all the time. It's not even worth clicking on them because it's so cheap, you know?
01:15:06
Putz
I mean, it's not even, i mean, and Jeremy and them, they do some of the stuff and they've got the price up on some of it, but like,
01:15:07
The SnowJobs Podcast
hu
01:15:14
Putz
um I don't know, the corporate corporate America, it's just gonna keep going that way. I don't see, I mean, that's how they all make money is it is beating everybody down to death, whether it's on lawn and snow or, i mean, now like Walmart, they do all electrical and the plumbing and all that stuff in house. Like they're just beating everything down to to get the price down. So um I don't know. I mean, I think corporate America, you're screwed. ah I think they're gonna keep,
01:15:41
Putz
beating that price down but like in our in our market we have a lot of private stuff you know uh private property owners big warehouses that are owned privately um all that stuff so on that on that end of it you can't you got to keep that pricing up but i just think on the corporate side of things it's it's i don't i don't ever see it changing uh i just think that's the way that corporate america is going so
01:15:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure. Yeah.
01:15:58
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah
01:16:04
The SnowJobs Podcast
now It's not going to because Jordan, like Jordan said, a multiple times like that you you have these major chains that they just want to hit the easy button.
01:16:06
RICK JAMES
Corporate.
01:16:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
They want to call one person and say, OK, you can do all these for how much? All right, cool. And they don't care what that rate is, but it's not their headache anymore.
01:16:24
Putz
Right.
01:16:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's somebody else's headache.
01:16:24
Putz
But why do you have to apologize just just to do a Walmart, let's just use Walmart, everyone knows what that's at.
01:16:24
RICK JAMES
Yeah, and the other they have the GM.
01:16:29
Putz
Just to do a Walmart that's, 15 acres, why do you have to do that Walmart per se versus the warehouse that's out on by the airport, you know, that's getting in, you know, truckload after truckload of goods all night that might be owned by some Tom, Dick or Harry, you know?
01:16:45
Putz
I mean, just, it might be the same square footage.
01:16:46
The SnowJobs Podcast
100% I
01:16:49
Putz
It's just not the the staple in town that everybody knows, but why do you have to do that one? You know, just to say you do it and lose money?
01:16:58
RICK JAMES
Exactly. Yeah. Well, that's another deal with these corporates.
01:16:58
The SnowJobs Podcast
hundred percent i think so
01:17:01
RICK JAMES
Like you're saying, these gm the GMs, the more money they save, the more, the bigger
Challenges for Small and Medium Businesses
01:17:05
RICK JAMES
bonus they're going to get. So they're not going to, they want to, they want to cut all their costs as low as they can cause they're going to a bonus. And that, that needs to play into this somehow where they got to be held accountable, which they never will be.
01:17:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
Well, they won't be because the nationals have taken all the liability off of Walmart or the chain, and they've now put it on the end contractor.
01:17:16
RICK JAMES
So,
01:17:17
Putz
Amen.
01:17:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
So there is no answering for your bad decision as a GM of one of those chains. They don't have anything to worry about. There's no liability, right? Or am I wrong, Brandon? You guys tackle some of those, right?
01:17:35
Brandon Reilly
Yeah, I would agree.
01:17:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
Okay. Yeah, I.
01:17:38
Brandon Reilly
it's it's It's totally about, it's the easy game, right? Because if if they're dealing with a national or regional service provider, that service provider is taking care of hundreds of properties for them versus individually, you know, if they have 3,000 stores, that's 3,000 independent contractors, right?
01:17:56
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah Contractors basically
01:17:57
Brandon Reilly
Like no one wants to deal with that. That's why they'll never go away.
01:18:01
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure No absolutely And and that I think you can always expect low-balling there on on prices with that model. I don't think that's going anywhere, and I really don't think... I used to think that there would be enough people that would just say, screw you, I'm not working for those prices, but it appears they still fill those slots every fucking year with new idiots. So I'm i'm kind of over that. It's not going away. um They may have to bring their prices up a little bit in the future to get, you know, there's only...
01:18:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
i don't know. Is there an unending supply of dumbasses out there that are going to come into snow and do it?
01:18:37
Billy
Yes. Yes.
01:18:38
Brandon Reilly
Always.
01:18:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, you think every year they'll just refresh the pond?
01:18:39
Billy
Always.
01:18:40
Brandon Reilly
Always.
01:18:40
RICK JAMES
You watch news?
01:18:43
Brandon Reilly
Hey, I get a cool F-350 with a plow on it.
01:18:43
RICK JAMES
Do you are
01:18:45
Brandon Reilly
that's that's That's so cool, man.
01:18:46
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah chi
01:18:47
Brandon Reilly
I'll do that. I'll do that for $10,000.
01:18:49
The SnowJobs Podcast
The broker model's not going anywhere.
01:18:49
RICK JAMES
watch?
01:18:49
Putz
I'll say too, like we we've had a actually quite a few bids this year where they say, oh, well we want to bid for snorable. Well, what do you want? you want hourly? Do you want seasonal? you want per time? What's your per time? Is it structured by the inch or like ha what's your structure?
01:18:59
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
01:19:02
Putz
And we have a, we measure everything up we know our costs and all that so we send them a our hourly pricing we send them our our seasonal pricing then we send them a per time per inch pricing and all that and we've won actually a fair amount of them because they look at it and they're like oh this per time pricing where if we get you know zero to one inch or you know one to three etc this is what we're paying like but it's all it's all line and out like they can pick whatever they want
01:19:27
Brandon Reilly
you
01:19:28
Putz
Somebody else across town him might have bidded at, you know, cheaper per hour or per season or whatever, but we laid it all out and we gave them all the options, you know, because somebody mentioned earlier, like some of these bids are very unorganized or they're not defined, you know, and so.
01:19:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:19:42
RICK JAMES
Vag, vag.
01:19:44
Billy
Thanks.
01:19:46
Putz
We made a structure that this is how we're going to do it.
01:19:46
RICK JAMES
I want...
01:19:49
Putz
You know, we're going to line item everything out hourly, seasonal and and per per push per inch whatever um and give them all the options. So.
01:19:59
RICK JAMES
Josh, um how many times have you heard this? Like, I want i want like the neighbors got, I want what they what are they whatever they're doing. I'm like, what what what the hell?
01:20:05
Brandon Reilly
my favorite.
01:20:07
Putz
Yeah. Yeah.
01:20:08
RICK JAMES
Give me RFP. What do you want? Well, I want it to look like that.
01:20:10
Putz
yeah
01:20:11
RICK JAMES
well
01:20:12
Brandon Reilly
And then when you give them that price, they're like, whoa I'm not paying that.
01:20:14
Putz
and exactly exactly
01:20:14
RICK JAMES
Yeah, I'm not paying that.
01:20:15
Brandon Reilly
not paying
01:20:17
Putz
Or they pay you for the first month and then they cut you in half.
01:20:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:20:19
RICK JAMES
Yeah, well, we got to back her down, back her down.
01:20:20
Putz
Oh, no, we don't need you to come back to that.
01:20:23
Billy
um
01:20:25
Putz
but you just got to be open.
01:20:25
Billy
That's like our landscape.
01:20:26
Putz
I mean, like, i mean, and know your costs. I mean, you can't just go do something because you want to do it. To say you have that store, that storefront or that warehouse, you got to know your costs. I mean, small, big, medium, it doesn't matter what size
Risks of Low Profit Margins
01:20:40
Putz
you are.
01:20:40
Putz
So, yeah.
01:20:41
The SnowJobs Podcast
i agree.
01:20:42
Billy
I agree with them to some odd ad we were in a automotive area. We you know, I don't I don't I don't give a shit if it's Walmart or as long as it's green.
01:20:53
Billy
I don't care. Right. So it could be and no name building. If it it's, it's whatever, right?
01:20:58
Brandon Reilly
Thank
01:20:58
Billy
Like it does. I don't know why it matters to certain people, but it's like our landscapes. It's funny. They'll say, I want what that neighbor, what you guys did over there with the, the waterfall and the lights. And that, know, they said you won an award for it.
01:21:09
Billy
Oh, that was 90 grand. Oh no, no, I don't think so. Can we get one Rosebush? you know, it's like,
01:21:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah exactly yeah yeah what do you have in the $50 range ah
01:21:15
RICK JAMES
ah
01:21:15
Putz
Thank you.
01:21:19
RICK JAMES
know
01:21:20
Billy
and what What do you got in the we'll pay you later range?
01:21:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, my God.
01:21:24
Billy
but
01:21:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's too funny, dude. Yeah. I just, I don't know how, because, like, I know when guys are doing it right, they have the ah they have efficient equipment.
01:21:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
They're paying their guys well. They have the right insurance at the right levels. They're paying for that ridiculous rates. I don't know how... they are going to compete and keep beating their head against the wall against, you know, low ballers that are coming in and winning bids at much lower prices.
01:21:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's for small and medium companies like my, even myself, like I'm not directly affected yet. But it's becoming harder and harder to get excited about about snow doing it because I'm seeing what the prices are going up, our costs on everything are going up astronomically, and I can't transfer with those increases.
01:22:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
I can't transfer that to my customer because no matter how much they love us, they're going to shop.
01:22:28
Brandon Reilly
never pay it.
01:22:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
They're going to shop at a certain point. They don't have a choice. they're They're getting hit just as hard in whatever they do as we are with costs. And there's going to be like a reset. I don't know.
01:22:41
The SnowJobs Podcast
i don't know how, but I think you're going to see a lot of small and medium companies in the next three to five years that just pack it in because they say, look at our profit margin just whittling away.
01:22:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
you know and And the guys that were lucky enough to be smart enough to start their profit margins out high, they're going to last a little longer. But if you started with the wrong profit margin plugged in and the wrong overhead costs, and now your costs keep going up and you're not able to increase your customers to where they can afford to to keep paying the increases, you're you're done.
Sustainability and Equipment Cost Recovery
01:23:13
The SnowJobs Podcast
You're over. I don't know. i don't know. Does anybody i mean anybody disagree with that? Feel free. That's just the way I'm seeing it recently.
01:23:20
Putz
No, we say this. I mean, even an average snow year in our market here in Fargo, like it'll tank. probably 30% at least of the snow contractors cause they won't be able to sustain the prices that they bid everything at.
01:23:35
Putz
um
01:23:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:23:36
Putz
And I mean, I'm not saying I want to see that, or but but it happens. And I've been in the game for long enough where you see it. I mean, three years ago, we had a lot of snow and there's a ton of guys that had, I mean, they they couldn't they didn't finish the year out because they couldn't put keep pushing. They couldn't even go to these sites and get them opened up because they they were overbooked because they were trying to do it with this one skid steer because they thought that,
01:23:58
Putz
You know, they could have one skidster and do all these sites to make all this money. and And now we've had two low snow years and that's where everyone's back at now.
01:24:04
Brandon Reilly
and
01:24:05
Putz
They think, oh, it's going keep being low snow, low snow we can do with low equipment. You get one average snow year and it puts all these guys under the bus.
01:24:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:24:13
Putz
I mean, so...
01:24:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
You do. You really need that Darwin winter to thin the herd.
01:24:18
Putz
Yeah, and I mean, it's unfortunate because I mean, I get along with a lot of contractors in town.
01:24:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like to let the winter claim the dumb ones.
01:24:23
Putz
It's unfortunate, but like, you got to know your overhead. I mean, you got to know what your costs are.
01:24:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:24:30
Putz
And lot of these guys don't. I mean, it's it's a fly by night hit operation. I don't know. But
01:24:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
It is tough.
01:24:37
Brandon Reilly
yeah i was going to say that's that's another culprit to the low bid prices is low winners, right?
01:24:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's tough.
01:24:42
Brandon Reilly
Back-to-back, at least for our market, back-to-back low winners.
01:24:43
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. Yeah.
01:24:45
Brandon Reilly
People are just like, wait, we just got to get the work. you know Maybe it'll be a third to low winner. I don't know who's thinking that. But you know if we get pounded with 30% over our seasonal average is what they're predicting, there's no way they can do it for the numbers that they put out there.
01:24:59
Putz
No, only good.
01:24:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah
01:24:59
Brandon Reilly
There's no way. Payroll is not going to be met. Equipment is going to be returned or repoed. like it's just it can't It can't be done.
01:25:07
Putz
Right.
01:25:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
and those fringe markets too, where they have a lot of standard deviation and there may be below the 20 inch, you know, per year range when they do get snow, they're going to, I just don't know how they're going to, you know, maintain it, especially if guys are cutting each other's throats and they're not pricing, you know, high enough.
01:25:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
i know. It's tough. I mean, I hate to be a Debbie downer, but shit, that's all we're hearing from guys this year. No matter who we talk to, it seems like it's extremely prevalent. That's just getting worse and not better as far as people not knowing their prices.
01:25:43
The SnowJobs Podcast
What else we got? What does that do? Jordan, what does that do long-term to you guys? You got low snow winters. You got guys low balling.
01:25:51
Brandon Reilly
Mm-hmm.
01:25:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
as ah As a dealer, what does that do to equipment sales? you know what is Are you seeing you seeing a lot of small to medium guys still able to buy and afford the equipment they were five, eight years ago?
01:26:06
Jordan Smith
Yeah, I mean, it's it's a little hard a little hard for me to totally judge that just because of some of the transitional timing we've had between VSI and Storm and selling part of the business and that kind of stuff.
01:26:07
Putz
Thank you.
01:26:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure. Okay.
01:26:18
Jordan Smith
But i mean yeah, yeah.
01:26:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
But you get around enough. You talk to enough dealers and stuff.
01:26:22
Jordan Smith
Yeah, I mean, generically though, absolutely, that's right. I mean, again, equipment is one, it's it's it's the single biggest line item on a cost of goods sold for a bid.
01:26:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
Okay.
01:26:33
Jordan Smith
So when we're looking at what it costs to perform a site, equipment's the biggest thing. If you're not recovering it, you're definitely not affording it, right? So what happens is people that buy stuff and they don't recover it, when the stuff breaks down or it's worth nothing anymore because rusted out, they can't pay to
Closing Remarks and Thanksgiving Wishes
01:26:49
Jordan Smith
replace it.
01:26:49
Jordan Smith
And when that happens, they out of business.
01:26:49
The SnowJobs Podcast
No. Yep.
01:26:51
Jordan Smith
like And I feel bad for the guys that that work for 10 years thinking that the payoff's coming, the payoff's coming. And at the end of that 10 years, their equipment's all trash and there's no cash reserves because they didn't make any money to buy new stuff.
01:27:05
Jordan Smith
And that happens to people all the time. They they keep thinking it's going to get better. I'm going to catch up. And they just don't. So yeah, absolutely. Just in principle, even without direct examples, like if you're not recovering your equipment properly or pricing your work properly, you're not affording equipment. And we we are we are seeing it for sure. And it's definitely impacting it's definitely impacting guys on the smaller end than the bigger end. At least that's how it feels to me.
01:27:30
Jordan Smith
um But yeah, it's it's ah it's a real issue that we have to resolve. if If we don't get pricing standards sorted out in this industry, it's it's not gonna good.
01:27:39
The SnowJobs Podcast
I agree. I agree completely. You heard the other day, i heard the there was a a guy, he's not even doing snow anymore, but I still talk to him. We still kick things around. He's a smart dude. He's like, you know, he used an example. he goes, the The year I got out that I was finally fed up, I had this one guy take two sites from me on a total lowball bid. He was 80% cheaper.
01:28:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
And I bumped into him like a year later and I said, hey, you know, why did you why did you go so low on that? He goes, well, I just wanted to get my foot in the door. And then once I get my foot in the door, I'll build that price. I'll start increasing it over the next three or four years, and then I'll be good.
01:28:22
The SnowJobs Podcast
Well, that guy didn't last two years at that site, and he was out of business already. But that customer now, that that contract's throat was cut, and now that customer is not going to go back. If you were paying, say, $40,000 or let's say $50,000 for to that first guy and then somebody came in at 20 grand and he failed you're gonna try and find somebody for 30 like you're not gonna jump back to 50 i'm saying like i mean there's gonna be a lag there at least in my experience that's what's happened like they don't want to pay what worked they want to try and find it on the cheaper end and they're gonna haggle but i'm getting drunk
01:28:59
Brandon Reilly
Well, that's crazy. Can you, I mean, imagine having a client, you low bit at the first year and then what the the second year you're goingnna come in say, Hey, my, my price is going up 80%. Like no one would ever do that.
01:29:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
dude it's Exactly, it's stupid But that's what that's what happened and Like he said, it's happened to him And I'm like, man, that is just That's the kind of idiocy you're dealing with out there sometimes
01:29:10
Putz
Right.
01:29:10
Brandon Reilly
hey
01:29:22
The SnowJobs Podcast
um I don't know. do not know. And it's not going to get any better because the lower they bid, the higher the slip falls are going to be, which is going to drive everybody's insurance, not just the ones that were directly responsible. I'm paying if somebody in Jersey has eight slip and falls this year, I'm getting raised. If I'm part of the same insurance company that had to pay out for those, then I'm getting raised next year to cover the loss on that fucking asshole.
01:29:50
Brandon Reilly
if you can even get insurance.
01:29:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
If they don't, yeah, if they don't just decide like State Farm last year and send everybody a letter that I was told in like mid-October, say, oh, by the way, we're not doing snow anymore. So you guys are all dropped to thousands of guys in the tri-state area. It's like, holy shit.
01:30:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's crazy. um What else we got? Anybody got anything else? Or we beat this to death. We we depressed everybody fully. You good?
01:30:17
Billy
Time start drinking.
01:30:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right.
01:30:19
RICK JAMES
I think we ah beat everything down, so think we're good for this one.
01:30:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
all right anybody got anything else you want to talk about real quick nothing or just wrap it yes happy thanksgiving absolutely
01:30:29
RICK JAMES
No more announcements?
01:30:29
Brandon Reilly
Snow's coming.
01:30:31
RICK JAMES
Any more announcements?
01:30:32
Billy
Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.
01:30:32
RICK JAMES
We good? Yeah, happy Thanksgiving.
01:30:33
Billy
Yeah.
01:30:34
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
01:30:35
Billy
I'm thankful for this conversation. I'll, I'll, I'll wind on a positive note after you, after this is, uh, you know, the depressing talk.
01:30:43
Putz
Thank
01:30:44
The SnowJobs Podcast
well guys gotta wake up that's the bottom line like they really gotta wake up if you don't know ask
01:30:50
RICK JAMES
Or we'll be doing a show. Or we'll next show we'll be doing an auction show.
01:30:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
right
01:30:54
Putz
you.
01:30:57
Billy
We got nine metal pluses and 10 wheel loaders for something.
01:31:00
RICK JAMES
yeah
01:31:00
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh my God. Yeah.
01:31:02
RICK JAMES
oh
01:31:03
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. It's crazy, but yeah, I mean, that's, it's not to depress everybody. It's more to teach everybody that's listening. and There's a lot of guys out there listening to this.
01:31:09
Billy
Public service announcement. Educate. Yeah.
01:31:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:31:12
Billy
Let's reset the standard here.
01:31:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's, I mean, you're, You're looking at a couple thousand guys every week listening to these episodes. If you can teach somebody or if you don't know yourself, reach out to somebody that you think will. Reach out to anybody you've listened to on this show. They will gladly fucking help you. And if they don't have the answer, they will put you in touch with somebody in five minutes that maybe does or can help you.
01:31:34
The SnowJobs Podcast
And if you can't find the answer in the people we have on this panel right now, I don't know where else you're going to get it because everybody in this room has proven time and time again that They are very, very smart. They're very business savvy, and they do the right thing.
01:31:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
So reach out. Don't hesitate. Everybody good?
01:31:52
Brandon Reilly
Yeah.
01:31:53
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
01:31:53
Billy
Yep.
01:31:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
all right. Have a happy Thanksgiving. Everybody enjoy the time with your families. And, yeah, that'll do it. We'll wrap episode 146 of the Snow Jobs podcast main show. I can't thank this crew enough. From me and Jeremy, thank you guys very much.
01:32:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
To Snow Jobs Nation, everybody, as we said, have a great Thanksgiving. Enjoy the time with your families. If you're getting snow, if the weather guys are actually right, you know what?
01:32:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
If they're right and there's any Thanksgiving snow in your forecast, good luck, and hopefully it doesn't impact your holiday too much. Everybody be safe out there. Have a great week.
01:32:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
Keep pushing.