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S3-153: The Great Salt Shortage of 2025/2026....Fact or Fiction?
0 Playsin 5 hours
The guys sit down with a group from around the country to talk about the "Salt Shortage", how its affecting everyone, and what they think is going on.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:02
Speaker
This No Jobs podcast episode is brought to you by Top Gun Backblades.
00:00:23
Speaker
Get ready to go. She ain't moving slow. She's taking control. Pushing the pedal through the floor. I'm begging for more. You better hold on.
Podcast Milestone and Recording Reflections
00:00:39
Speaker
Let's go, Snowjobs Nation. Here we go. Episode 153 of the Snowjobs Podcast main show powered by Top Gun Backblades is coming at you. You know who I am. Talk to the juice box guy.
00:00:51
Speaker
You know who's always with me. I'm one of the baddest motherfuckers of all time. i One of the best singers. One of the best looking motherfuckers you've ever seen. Hold my drink, bitch. Steve and Jeremy coming at you for the 153rd Monday in a row.
00:01:03
Speaker
It's 153 seems easy. I heard six is the number that that you got to get past. Six is the tough one. Once you get past six, it's all downhill from there. like Yeah, 153 Mondays in a row, dude.
00:01:17
Speaker
Not bad. How we doing, buddy? Doing really good. How about you, buddy? I'm doing good, man. Doing good. another We're back to our old fun and games Sunday sunday recordings.
00:01:29
Speaker
I don't know why you keep saying we're back to our old friends. It's a standard recording day every day every week. We were doing good for a while. We were doing Saturday. We were here for like two weeks. Yeah, we got we got out of pattern by a day, by 24 hours.
00:01:43
Speaker
Oh, man. yeah Everything's good? Yeah, really good. Just got back from the old Houston. Did a lot of, ah yeah, you did a lot of traveling this week, huh? Yeah, Top Dog Todd asked me to come down there, do some training, and get some security clearances down at Houston Airport. So around down there, in case you ever gets to know, I can hopefully shoot down there and do something.
Weather Changes and Snowfall Predictions
00:02:07
Speaker
Handle it. That's all they send, right? They're just sending Jeremy Lindstrom. Yeah, we what do yeah like I got her. I'm just going to send Jeremy. He'll handle it.
00:02:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't think I'd just hang out in the nice weather. It was pretty decent down there. Yeah, I bet. I bet. I don't mind that. Getting off an airplane, get hit with like 80 degrees in your face, and you go thinking do something with some snow equipment? Yeah, let's do that every day. not so bad. Paul Matries.
00:02:33
Speaker
That's the future of Storm Academy. It'll be climate controlled in dome and you know you'll have one half that's cold and the other half will be nice and warm where you can look at equipment and stuff. That's awesome. That's a good week, man. Good for you. that was a good experience. Yeah, it's good to be down there and get away for, I think I was only gone two days, but it was it was still fun. so Very cool, bud.
00:02:53
Speaker
Very cool. Well, we've had a nice couple days here. A nice couple days in the 40s. It warmed up a little bit. The whole snowpack is melted. We got a couple days of rain. and And now we just got stood up tonight for snow squalls. And, you know, possibly up to an inch where it happens if you're locally. You know, locally. That old location. Well, you're a local. You're local event. I'm going to find that town. I'm going to find locally on the map. I'm figure out where it is because...
00:03:20
Speaker
You're a local. You're in the town. You're in the town, Tamar. Yeah, wherever it
YouTube Series and Snow Fascination
00:03:24
Speaker
happens. that's what locally means. That's you. Whoever's going to get it, you're the local one. so Well, we'll see if we get it. You know, you know these the weathermen, who the hell knows? First of all, I'm not a weatherman. I'm a meteorologist. I'd appreciate a little bit of respect. Excuse me, doctor.
00:03:40
Speaker
All right. So what else? Do you got anything else you got to talk about for the week? Because we're going to talk about what we're doing tonight, and then we're going to get right into it with the boys after some commercials. What do you got? Anything? ah Yeah. I was like checking out our Storm Chasing on YouTube. That thing's really picking up on last few weeks here. think we're over 100,000. What we up to? Over the last couple weeks.
00:04:04
Speaker
that's pretty impressive just shows how what ah what a fucking bunch of weirdos snow guys are like we are just a weird bunch we're all getting our teeth kicked in with snow across the country and let's watch more snow as we're doing snow like it's crazy like we can't get enough we cannot get enough of this stuff it's awesome yeah that is so cool it's great glaciers killing it the glacier episode what are 102 000 Yeah, think that's what it is right now. I just checked out, so that's pretty cool. Yeah. You're pretty badass, you know? don't want to brag, but I will.
00:04:35
Speaker
That's insane, man. Views are up by over 100,000 in the past. It the fucking best. oh Killing it. Killing it. Oh, yeah. I don't have it. I don't have the sound. You don't have that one? God dang. You never have the... Dude, I haven't put that on there in so long. I haven't used the Jeremy Lindstrom. I'm the fucking best.
00:04:52
Speaker
Oh, shit. I should get it. But, you know. Yeah, that's awesome, man. Storm chasing killing it again. And hopefully we're hopefully the season two will be just as good. Kill it. Keep going. Keep growing.
00:05:04
Speaker
Keep flying. Got anything else? No, i not really. That's a pretty uneventful week here. We kind of slowed down. We did some hauling one night this week, finished up a few things. And otherwise, pretty slow here. think we got a chance of snow next week. That's about it. Nothing serious. End of this week, they're talking like Thursday, Friday, or Saturday, Sunday. They're like, you're not going to get both, but if you get one, it's going to be decent. So we'll see.
Salt Shortage: Fact or Fiction?
00:05:33
Speaker
See if they're right. know. what's the ah What's the Vegas odds this week? I really don't know. they they Listen, say what you want. like I like to break their balls, but Weather Pros has pretty much been spot on. They've called what they've called it when it's coming. they've been All the storms so far have overperformed a little bit what they thought, but I don't really care.
00:05:54
Speaker
Tell me we're getting snow and we'll be out until it's over. you know I don't care if you call for two and we get four. That doesn't bother me at all. I know it bothers some people, but that really doesn't bother me. but In any case, so today, guys, here is what we are going to do. We are going to kick the ball around on the most popular topic for snow guys this winter.
00:06:13
Speaker
Salt shortage 2026. Fact or fiction? And to help us do that, we have a panel of guys from all different parts of the country to help us out. Some of the guys sell the salt. Some of the guys, well, we all use it. Some guys know people in different places around the country. They can get different perspectives and give different perspective perspectives of what people are experiencing out there.
00:06:37
Speaker
So to give this topic, a you know, a thorough beating from the Northeast, we have Patty Salmon of DJ Salmon and Northeast D icing solutions from Minnesota and they travel the world in snow. So they talk to people all over the place. We have Jordan Smith and Steve Smythe from storm equipment and to represent bulk salt sales in the Michigan area. We have Maddie McIntosh of Clippers snow. So that's a pretty good panel. We should be able to, uh,
00:07:04
Speaker
throw a lot of theories out there, a lot of maybe even a couple of facts, and we'll ah we'll see if we can't figure this out and see how everybody's doing with it, see how everybody's feeling about it. um I think everybody across the board is pretty tired of ah of dealing with it. that is That is definitely for sure. But that's what we're going to do today. And before we do that, as always, we're going to hear from Team Top Gun. We're going to come back to a very quick week in review and get into it with the boys.
00:07:30
Speaker
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ask about our new skid steer attachment. Get your order started at topgunblades.com or check us out on Instagram and YouTube at Top Gun Blades. Welcome to Team Top Gun. All right, gang, we're back. So like I said, very quick week in review.
00:08:03
Speaker
Last week, we dropped the very first episode of a new series of specials, all right, being brought to you with the help of our friends at Boss Snowplow. It's called The Cutting Edge. We dropped episode one on the Snow Jobs podcast. It debuted last Tuesday.
00:08:19
Speaker
And by the number of listens, you guys are obviously enjoying it. You guys are killing it with listens. So thank you very much on behalf of us and boss for listening. Thank you to the whole team at boss for getting involved with the show and supporting what we're doing here and wanting to bring all of you guys out there more of what you asked for, which is more content and more episodes.
00:08:37
Speaker
Keep hitting Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Keep hitting the like, subscribe. Keep dropping comments. Definitely. We love it. We love hearing from you guys. We love hearing what you like, what you don't like. Keep doing that for us. And that way it helps us keep getting better for you.
00:08:52
Speaker
New tumblers again are in Get your tumblers. I heard they were the biggest they were the biggest ones ever. Who the hell said that? Somebody posted that. somebody said Like, leave it to the snow jobs to get the biggest tumbler ever. It's only 30 ounces, I think, or something. It's not that big.
00:09:09
Speaker
It's not that big. It's a standard tumbler. Yeah. Yeah.
New Series Launch and Sponsor Messages
00:09:12
Speaker
saying i get that and And the coffee cup one, but and like I also got a, I got a new sweatshirt being made for us now too. So oh that'll be coming out here and buy in in a month.
00:09:22
Speaker
Is it limited edition?
00:09:27
Speaker
If people want to buy a lemon, we can call whatever you want to call it. We just got to put – say there's shortage of them, and then they'll fly off the shelves and we can charge 30% more. Well, there is a Carhartt shortage because Top Dog Todd had to go somewhere else to get car because MediaShot couldn't get him, I really? really?
00:09:43
Speaker
That's because the Snowjobs have the market cornered for MediaShack car hearts? He was a little upset about MediaShack. I'll have to talk to Spencer about that. Uh-oh. That's no good. I just ordered a bunch of car hearts last week, so we got more of them coming too. so That's right.
00:09:59
Speaker
That's right. They know. They know where to go. ah That's cool. Well, check out the Snowjobs Nation store. It's stocked and ready for all your orders, and you can find that at snowjobsnationstore.com.
00:10:10
Speaker
All right. You got anything else, buddy, for week or review? and I think we're good, bud. All right, cool. So let's hear from our partners real quick and we'll be back and get into this with the boys and should have a lot of fun doing it Hey guys, Steve here.
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Salt Shortage Debate: True or Logistical Issue?
00:12:35
Speaker
All right, we're back. so Let's welcome in the boys. Patty, Maddie, Jordan, Steve. How are we, guys?
00:12:43
Speaker
Doing well. Doing great. Cool. This should be a lot of fun. like interesting should be interesting should be a lot of laughs uh i will be first to say these are opinions it's stated fact but uh yeah we've all uh we've all experienced this for a while now and it's all anybody seems to be talking about on social media or in the snow world so uh let's get into this boy so what do we all think the salt shortage fact or fiction fact
00:13:16
Speaker
fact there there is definitely a shortage there's a shortage yes well matt works for a salt company so well that's there's not enough salt i can tell you that you can go see it firsthand just drive down to the river look at the piles and they're not there so they're not there what do you what do you think jordan I'm going to play ah economist here for a second and just frame it up generally, and then we can get into the politics of it Because there's there's two sides of it. Yep.
00:13:51
Speaker
Just so the listeners kind of understand. And I'm not an expert in this, but um I know a little bit about like global trade, commodities, that kind of thing. So salt is an insanely abundant resource. There is no shortage of salt on the planet by any means. There is plenty of salt.
00:14:11
Speaker
Okay. That's not the issue. The issue is that, the timing to get salt where it needs to go to get to the people that want it is extremely slow. So the the most efficient way to move salt is on a boat, a barge, or on a train.
00:14:28
Speaker
Moving it by truck is literally cost more than the salt is worth depending on far it's going. So like logistics for barges and trains is six months or more away.
00:14:39
Speaker
So by the time whatever reserves we have start getting chewed up, it's way too late to efficiently logistically move more salt to where it needs to go. Right. We're not out of salt. Like you can go to Salt Lake city and, and Texas and, uh, other areas. And like, you can pick up salt tomorrow and we're not running out, but it's going to cost you more in trucking than it cost, than it costs for the salt. Right.
00:15:03
Speaker
So just, just kind of framing up for the conversation and the listeners, like, I think there are a lot of politics here and we'll get into that part of it. That's the fun part. But there is legitimately a logistical issue with salt or like if there's not enough in the places it needs to be at the time it needs to be there, then there's not actually a shortage. There is a misplacement of of salt. And I think that's like the bigger issue.
00:15:27
Speaker
Uh, because yeah, we're not like, just to be clear with everyone, I've had a few people ask me like, what, what happens when we actually run out of salt? Like we are not going to run out of salt. It's more abundant. It's the most abundant resource on the planet. Yeah. It's it's like the earth is made of salt, yeah right? The term salt of the earth exists for a reason. Like there's a lot of salt. yeah Um, so we're not going run out of salt. It's just about the timing to get it where it needs to go. So that was kind of the overall economic overview. And then we can do the fun part. Yup.
00:15:56
Speaker
All right. um well let's Let's see. So we're not going to run out of salt. we the So the problem is... You're saying transportation, but what contractors out there are being told by the mines is there's nothing. The stockpiles that are normally there are no longer there.
00:16:15
Speaker
In the case of Ohio, they said they have Cleveland used to have five stockpiles that had 100,000 tons each in them. And this year they did not replenish any of the five.
00:16:27
Speaker
They just did the one at the mine. And they did that on purpose. And they said they planned to they planned to they don't plan to to replenish those next year either. That tells me this is a manufactured shortage.
00:16:39
Speaker
Because i mean you know cause everybody says they can't. The mines are saying they can't bring it up fast enough. That's their thing. Oh, they can't bring it up fast enough. But if you're keeping these depots empty on purpose, you know that's ah you had seven months and we're already through it all?
00:16:54
Speaker
Yeah, but you you only want to keep so much at each depot, right? And depending on the weather, you could sit on that salt, say 50 or 60% of it all year.
00:17:05
Speaker
So now that salt's tarped, goes through the summer, the heating phase of it, the sweating phase of it, the rain phase of it. The salt becomes hard, like the first layer of it, probably anywhere from a foot to two feet.
00:17:20
Speaker
can get hard, then you have to start dealing with all the chunks. So now you're starting to do with you're starting to deal with waste, you're starting to deal with storage fees where it's staying down on the docks. So they're paying for that, re-tarping, and sometimes they have to move those piles because those docks are bringing in different goods start coming here in February and March.
00:17:41
Speaker
So it comes a problem there of how much you're going to keep in certain areas. So you you don't think they may be misjudged or mismanaged the number of pounds they might want to keep considering they ran out in November?
00:17:55
Speaker
So think of it this way. Look at Minnesota last year in snow, right? What's your average snowfall? What, 55, 65 inches. How much did you have last year?
00:18:07
Speaker
30, didn't you guys have? 29, 30. Mankato, we had 12. Yeah, so- I think Minneapolis, St. Paul had 25, yes. Half of normal, less than half of normal. So if you have winners like that, you end up having all this salt sit there, you're paying lots of fees. So basically, it's you're you're playing an average, right? You're playing the game of where can I fit and not lose my ass, basically, on the money of salt sitting there.
00:18:33
Speaker
Because it is, you have to move it. It's it's a money game. Well, I mean, it's definitely a commodity, and they will definitely try and figure out ways to short the market to make more money.
00:18:43
Speaker
mean It's the same thing we did during we we went through during COVID. Companies figured out we can employ less people. We can have them work less hours. We can produce less product. We can increase the price of said products, and people are going to be lined up around the corner to pay more and wait longer for the same shit.
00:18:59
Speaker
Correct. But we'll save money and make more. But like demand of salt is only high in bad winters, right? So you're having a bad winter in the Great Lakes states, you know, Ohio, Michigan, you know, Minnesota is having a good, you know, around there. So now you are taking out a bunch of salt. And last year they took out, we had a good winter, you know, a good January basically and in February and used a lot of salt. So the replenish probably didn't get to the number they wanted to for the year.
00:19:24
Speaker
So you basically just have two winners that have lined up where salt companies are going to make a lot of money. See, I thought that too, Matt, but we had Brandon Riley on. What was it, two weeks ago, Jeremy?
00:19:35
Speaker
What was Brandon on with us? So I said, I thought that too. And I said that i was like, well, you guys really didn't use a lot of salt last winter, right? Because you had a down winter. He goes, actually, no, we use the same amount we did. We had a lot of de-icing runs.
00:19:47
Speaker
So we actually used the same amount of salt we used on a big winter. Yeah, so we did too last year. We had a huge winner for salt last year. I think everybody did. Three quarters, one inch runs. Yeah. Didn't you have a salt issue last year too, Matt? Yeah, we did. We had a salt issue last year. Last year, I brought in as many tons as I could get into my yard because I was afraid we weren't going to be to get it.
00:20:11
Speaker
Do we think this is the new normal? Is this going to be just a yearly thing now? Yes.
Economic and Political Impacts on Salt Supply
00:20:15
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So they've figured out easy winners in a row where there's a surplus of salt because it's sitting on the dock. Well, if you've seen any DOT putting down salt, they're going to go through it, dude. Yeah. What what I heard.
00:20:31
Speaker
What I heard from a lot of guys is that all these guys that normally buy a lot of salt these last couple of winters, they've been lower winters. They didn't buy as much, so they didn't stock as much up. you know So I heard now that they're using it, obviously they're buying more, but they didn't have a bunch on hand. So that has has a lot to play into guys' storage too, cause you know because yeah they weren't making any money last couple of years. So they didn't bring all the salt in that you got to pay for upfront.
00:20:56
Speaker
yeah so but I was going to say the same thing. I think there's a ah slingshot effect that happens because when winters are low, the salt companies don't exactly what, I mean, Matt nailed it. Obviously you're in the salt business, but like they don't want to sell an inventory because it costs a lot of money to sell an inventory.
00:21:14
Speaker
Contractors also don't want to sell an inventory because they're fricking broke. So now like you have no one, no bins are full. And the people that are stocking the salt at the ports and the docks are are bearish on supply because there hasn't been demand. So they're stocking less than normal.
00:21:31
Speaker
And then when it does snow, the contractor's bins are empty. The docks are not as full. And like that exacerbates the problem. And I and and i do think that's where...
00:21:41
Speaker
Unless we can just get steady average winters every year, like this is going to keep happening. This has happened before. Like this happened in 2015. This happened in 2010. This happened in, I think in 2008.
00:21:52
Speaker
yeah and i i mean it's yeah I wasn't in the business in 2005, but 2008 was the first one I dealt with. We were super small. And then 2011 was really bad. That's the metrodome collapsed. Yeah.
00:22:04
Speaker
we were We were small enough, we made it work, but like couldn't get salt anywhere. And I agree with everything Jordan said and everything Matt said. i that that Those are two very plausible, and i think that I think you guys are dead on with that. What I don't understand and what I think a lot of other contractors don't understand is if you're going to play that game as a salt commodity, mine, broker, whatever you want to call them,
00:22:25
Speaker
How the fuck do you run out that half the country can't get salt as of mid-December, that you're shutting everybody down, all the contractors that need it? So think of this, though, too, Steve. You've got to think of this. So when the state, counties, and everyone, they load up the salt in the beginning of the year. So depending how much they used last year and what their bins looked like going into summer, yeah you're talking hundreds of thousands of tons going into these bins coming right out of that pile.
00:22:54
Speaker
yeah So that's that that shorts it right away. So here in Michigan, we started salting, I think it was December 12th. I mean, November 12th was our first salt. Then we had two in November. Then the first week of December.
00:23:07
Speaker
Then the second week. I mean, it's been nonstop. Yeah, we were going through it. your hat too Yeah, there's so much going out, plus trying to fill the state yards and everything like that. There's just, the product's just not there.
00:23:21
Speaker
I was trying to figure that out, how, like, declaring a shortage in early December and basically all the minds putting out these letters that we've all seen on social media that, you know, contractors are cut off, the can't get it's got to go all to the state, blah, blah, blah, to fulfill these contracts. And I get that. You know, you're going to – any business would do that. You're going to take care of the guy buying $100,000 before you're going to take care of the guy buying $100,000.
00:23:45
Speaker
I'd be the first one to agree with that. So I understand that. What I couldn't understand was that how it all worked. So I asked the local DOT, I'm like, hey, how does the the county bid and the state bid work for when do they set your salt price for 26? And they told me they set it in September.
00:24:02
Speaker
They have to have their orders in. So say a county took 10,000 ton on that 2026 price that was set in September. They told me that they can get they have to take that 10,000, but if it's a bad winter, they can also get up to 50% more at that 2026 price.
00:24:22
Speaker
But if it's a bad winter and they go over that 50% more, so if they go over 15,000 tons and they need more, they are now at the shortage price they're paying.
00:24:33
Speaker
So doesn't that benefit the salt people to declare a shortage early and jack the price? But the the thing is, they have to get to the state's minimum before they can do that. So the state has to get their minimum with their overage. Yeah, they have to get it.
00:24:47
Speaker
So what has happened, what would happen then is the state used more salt than they were thought they were going to, just like here in Michigan. Last year, they did the same thing. They were way above their normal use of what they called for.
00:24:59
Speaker
And isn't that stupid, though, to have guys like DOTs and stuff, municipalities, putting in orders in September when you only have another two months or a month and a half to mine what you need? Like, shouldn't they be putting orders in April for the following year?
00:25:14
Speaker
I would think so. Isn't that a recipe for disaster? Like, I'm just spitballing. but So I wonder, though, so what I wonder, Steve, is when they come out of winter and you have a harsh winter and there's a lot of salt on, I don't know – how long it takes them to get a decent pile up onto the ground where they can start rolling into these state yards where, you know, cause they take, ah you know, around here, they take a lot of salt. I mean, there's a lot of salt going out.
00:25:39
Speaker
Everybody's using a lot of salt. We all know DOT is very efficient with their salt. Very efficient. Very efficient. Very. I can't imagine. I mean, think of all the guys that are using liquids now. Think about if those guys were all still using granular.
00:25:54
Speaker
the salt would have been shut up shut off in September. like We wouldn't have been able to get anything. It's insane. but So what do we think, though? Do we think this is somehow, whether it's whether it's managed, ah whether it's on purpose or not, do you think this is a planned and produced, quote-unquote, shortage?
00:26:14
Speaker
Or do we think it's an accident every year that this happens? Poor planning or? I don't think it's an accident, but I don't. And I also don't think it's planned. I just think they set a number of how many tons are going to bring out. And that's what's going to happen. And if it's ah a bad winter. And they don't give a shit.
00:26:31
Speaker
Right. So and if it's it doesn't snow, they're going to have X amount of salt left.
Contractor Strategies Amid Salt Shortages
00:26:37
Speaker
And and you remember, too, what we said, like. They can only, like, we can't predict weather. No one can predict weather. It's the the the reason this industry so insane as a contractor. We've talked about this a lot, but like, they can go off of running averages. They can go off of historical data.
00:26:56
Speaker
And when you have a couple bad, like, the way you do this is by a formula with a spreadsheet or a piece of software, right? So you go off a couple...
00:27:07
Speaker
average or or below average winters and you allocate based on that. And then, you know, the last couple of years, interest rates being higher, like you're going to carry less inventory with higher interest rates. And then again, the the contractors bins being more empty because of lower winters.
00:27:23
Speaker
And like, then you get this weather happening and it's the exact same thing. They're looking at demand in November, like, whoa, way more than we thought. Like their spreadsheet probably has a red cell that says, you know, 880% of average or something.
00:27:38
Speaker
They're going to extrapolate that over the next five months. Cause what else can they do? They don't know what weather's actually going to happen. if If weather shuts off today, there's no salt shortage, right? Like we're not in trouble because There's plenty, but like they have to extrapolate what they know and what they know is historical data. And as of right now, we've just used a lot more.
00:27:57
Speaker
So whether we're actually going to run out or not, I don't think is the question. It's a question on what does the weather end up doing? Because if we have... a below average winner the rest of the year, I think we're gonna be fine. It does not mean that there won't be nefarious suppliers that decide to make an extra buck. Like that is going to happen. Oh, 100%. Let's be real.
00:28:15
Speaker
As contractors, don't we do the same thing? You get these emergency calls to fricking Texas and you go charge quadruple your normal rate. Like that's capitalism, baby. Like that's just, that's part of it. yep Absolutely right.
00:28:28
Speaker
And i think I think guys in certain areas, like, you know, I can't even say Michigan. you guys have You guys have the Great Lakes. Salt gets shipped on the Great Lakes, right? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think if you're in the middle of nowhere like Jeremy, you could you could definitely have a harder time with salt than somebody, say, like with me and Patty where we got ports everywhere where we can get foreign salt, no problem.
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah. cause that That was the next question. Like, what is the state of the shortage in everybody's areas? Like, let's go, Pat. you Nothing. Nothing, right? Not even talking about it. Not even talking about it. They said that's not going to happen. We don't do that. That's what we were told. That's exactly what we were told, right? That's what we were told. Hey, are going to get cut off this year? The salt shortage? What salt shortage? There is no salt shortage.
00:29:14
Speaker
ah Really? Yeah, we don't do that. That's what we were literally told in in the Northeast. So... But I mean, like, you yeah, we don't do that is what we were told. But I think it does help that, I mean, like us, we're smack dab in between two major ports. Sure, we got get foreign salt. Everything here is foreign. There's nothing domestic here. 100%, us too.
00:29:35
Speaker
100%. Us too. Jeremy, how's it going in Fargo with Salt? You having any problems? Yeah, a lot of guys are shut down. I mean, a lot of guys get stuff from the cities and they shut everybody off. What was a week or two ago, Steve? I don't remember.
00:29:48
Speaker
Anyway, but um steve you you know pretty well we're pretty good. We we don't we don't have predict a pretty good mile there,
00:30:00
Speaker
i don't know Gotcha. And Matt, madie like you you use it and sell it. Are you guys using in a shortage? Can you get more? what is What's going on? I can get more, but it's costing me more right now. I mean, I'm buying, I still have some of my
00:30:16
Speaker
So sorry about that. We don't know where we left off. We had a technical difficulty. So we're going to go back to Matt. What is the state of the shortage in Michigan as far as you selling and using?
00:30:27
Speaker
So Michigan is, like where we're at, is short. um Like we are going through with December's snowfall. You figure we got... We got half of our snowfall of last year in December, right? We we have 17 and a half inches. Last year we total of 26. So we got that in December alone.
00:30:46
Speaker
So salt usage is way up. And yeah, we're short. So like I buy x amount of salt, you know, in the summer. It's my allocation and we're flying through the allocation and I'm going outside my allocation to supplement in to try to, you know, forecast and not run out before March hits basically.
00:31:05
Speaker
Gotcha. So how much, how much have they jacked you? um I just paid $159 a ton. Wow. To get it. what What were you paying beginning of the season? um I was paying in the seventies.
00:31:18
Speaker
Wow. Oh, shit.
00:31:24
Speaker
Mafia. You ain't kidding. But that's what we're trying to do. we're trying I have to buy some high dollar salt to mix with what I have and then sell it at a price. Like I'm selling it out of my yard for $175 right now.
00:31:37
Speaker
Yeah, and then you're having to manage that pile. Yay, Steve's here. I'm here. ah Yeah, well, I'm doing all that. So it is short. Some guys are having a really hard time getting it. um The small guys are definitely hurting. you know They're eitherre having a hard time because some of these guys with their contracts and stuff don't have them straight. Start buying the expensive salt, you don't make as much money. It's just a vicious circle.
00:32:03
Speaker
crazy. Maybe they don't have a contract where they can increase salt price, I assume. Yeah. So Michigan's very good for like an all-inclusive bid where you put everything in one, saltings, everything like that. And a lot of the guys don't put in there for, you know, emergency on salt or X amount of salt app runs, different things like that, and have those clauses. So they're just stuck in that.
00:32:24
Speaker
Jesus. Bad contract. Okay, well next year. Yeah, you hope so. they're still around. Yeah, exactly. Oh, man. And then some guys don't want even bring it up to their customers cause they don't want to lose their customers. They're scared.
00:32:36
Speaker
You know, they don't want to say, hey, I got to up your salt. And it's already, you know, December is already a record month. And then you go and hit them with a, you know, a salt increase, depending on how you do it. And you have a chance of when you go into next year's bidding, you're going to some hard times.
00:32:50
Speaker
Well, that is something that because these shortages are no longer the exception, they're becoming the rule every year or at least close to every year now. We did talk about that on an episode where guys going forward are going to have to put some kind of salt variable in their contract.
00:33:07
Speaker
That they, you know, put a disclaimer in there that if they can't get salt, hey, this is what you'rere you're hiring us, but we are in a shortage area. And if we we're not a big company, you know, whatever you got to say, we're not liable if we can't get salt. And you agree to that. And also, if our salt gets double a ton.
00:33:26
Speaker
You know, we're not going to cut it with baking soda or oregano or anything. You know, we got to put it down straight. So, you know, it's gotta you got to come from somewhere. You can't just absorb that. If you were if you were getting it for $75 a ton, um but okay, I'm buying from Matt at $75 a ton, and now I'm paying double.
00:33:43
Speaker
you can't ah You can't absorb that kind of increase and just be nice to your customer. You got to sit them down and, you know, meet somewhere in the middle. Yeah, for sure. But it helps if you have that in your contract in the preseason. I think a lot of guys listening should be thinking about that going into the next Yeah, lot the young guys need to think That's for sure. What's that? I said a lot of the young guys need to think of that. They haven't lived through it, right? So they don't understand the whole salt. 100%. Yeah. yeah a lot of that That is a great point, Matt. that is ah the The industry has gotten so young in the last five years that a lot of guys have not lived through a true salt shortage. Yeah.
00:34:19
Speaker
Like what what what what year was it in Minnesota, Jordan, when when like you couldn't get any salt when you started liquids? 2010? 2010-11. Yep. so after we had we had ah I think we had like 40 inches of snow in December that year. Wow. And that was after a strong November too.
00:34:34
Speaker
But yes, that was that was a that was a pretty real one A lot of guys switched to liquid. um Actually, i remember too, a lot a lot of the Michigan chloride, like the the ones that have the chloride wells, they were shipping well brine all over the country yeah because it you know it was a different supply chain than than bulk salt. So guys that had never used liquid were building homemade sprayers and putting down unknown substance on the ground. And it was doing something, I guess, better than not putting down anything. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, that but that that really is a great point, Matt, that a lot of the industry may not have lived through a true salt shortage before where they're there to the point where if they run out, they're going to be happy to pay double just to get a load to have it in their bin. And, you know, thank you, sir. May I have another? you it's like But you got to put a variable, put a salt variable in there that allows you to adjust the price of your salt as it goes up.
00:35:31
Speaker
There's a lot of lot of these young guys here in minapoli and the Minneapolis market. I see there's that Snow Pros 2.0 Facebook site. They're smaller guys and whatnot. They don't have the the ability to stockpile or whatnot at the shop or have a big hoop house. but I don't even think a lot of them look, you know, look into the future as far as trying to like figure out kind of an idea of what they're going use for product for the year. They're going to local landscape yards and supply places that sell salt that are buying it from Cargill's and whatnot. And they're getting frustrated on there because these landscape supply places don't have it. and
00:36:03
Speaker
Landscape supply places are locking in with contracts with the Cargill's and the compasses and whatnot. But you get, you get a you know busy start of the season and all these guys are showing up in there and Matt, you can, you can contend to this, but like they're showing up with their, you know, V hopper trucks and whatnot and they're, they're depleting these piles and then they're complaining that there isn't product, but they're kind of part of the problem too, because they're not helping, you know, the, the Cargill's and the, and the compasses and, and you know, all those guys start to plan ahead of as well.
00:36:31
Speaker
yeah For sure.
00:36:36
Speaker
How is this? Go ahead, Jordan. You were going to say something? I was going to ask Steve, Arctic Steve, as we call him, has been around for a long time. Just who some of the Kingpin suppliers are.
00:36:52
Speaker
source suppliers are in the midwest and i think you already said them but i think it's cargill compass and morton we would deal with north american which was compass um cargill salt was one that we always signed with um central salt bill robinson in town um we we signed contracts with all three of them and here's one of the other problems is like the minneapolis market is what i'm familiar with three years ago we had a hundred inch winter everybody was using salt like water we were out every day Last two winters, we hit 30 inches a year. you know Brandon said they were out salting quite a bit last year, which they were. They had some freezing fog and stuff, but they're putting it down. i mean, they went through salt. they were Guys were out salting. I talk these guys all the time, but it wasn't like they were trying to burn down ice and snow. right They're out doing freezing fog and and minimal you know light applications.
00:37:38
Speaker
these These supply yards like Cargill, for an example, we'd go in and we'd contract. I'm just throwing numbers up. We'd say we least say want 4,000 tons of white salt this year. We'd sign the price, get the price at you know whatever it was, $69, $70 a ton, whatever it was.
00:37:52
Speaker
And we have two bad winners, and we might take 2,000 of those tons or 1,500. And Cargill never held us to it. Where Compass was more so more strict on it, and if we had to sign a contract with 2,000 tons, we had to pay at least 80% of that contract. And if we didn't pay the 80% of that contract,
00:38:14
Speaker
You wouldn't get the contract again to get it, but then we would have to take the product at the end of the season or we'd have to pay a ah fee to have them store it. But the Cargills of the world were always so nice because they're so big. And, you know, so all these guys like, you know, like the bigger companies, you know, like us, ah us as well, we we'd sign the same thing, you know, before I left and went to work for Jordan, we were already signing our Excel contracts for the previous the next year, which we had 30 inches. So we were kind of looking back to 100 inches was anomaly kind of averaged.
00:38:45
Speaker
And I know they didn't go through the salt that we we contracted for, right? So then these these compasses and the Cargills and stuff are sitting, like Matt said, and they're sitting on these piles and double handling it, triple handling it.
00:38:57
Speaker
So they're not going to bring in you know these big piles because guys aren't using it. you know So then it's then it's the old supply and demand, right? 100%. I definitely i agree. I think that's 100% what's going on.
00:39:09
Speaker
It's ah you know what all corporations that make products or commodities learned after COVID. yeah They can cut costs. Raise profits, produce less, work less. The frustrating part for like contractors, like the companies I worked for, it's like we would try to lock in as soon as we got a salt price. You know, if we'd get it in, say, mid.
00:39:26
Speaker
Matt, correct me on here. i Maybe you guys are a little different, but we'd typically get our salt prices in mid-July, first part of August. And we'd try to put ink to that right away and get it locked in. oh yeah. Yeah.
00:39:39
Speaker
get them locked in and then stock our bins right away in the in the fall. You know, September even, we'd have our bins full. But a lot of again, a lot of guys don't do that. Municipalities are the same way. It's like I was talking to a buddy that's down trucking, you know, he runs an end dump and he works for a company, but he his main job is driving a truck and they're down at the at the ah pile every day.
00:40:02
Speaker
Is that mine or yours? All right, Steve's. Okay. I'm scared. I did jump. Mossable. Mossable.
00:40:15
Speaker
It leaves. Steve's gone. well i think um I think just on that note quick, one of my thoughts in my head was like, there's so many parallel issues in this industry.
International Salt Supply and Local Markets
00:40:29
Speaker
And like what what Steve was triggering in my mind is like, if every contract, let's say let's say there's a cutoff of 100 ton. Like if you're under 100 ton, whatever, you're rounding error. But like any contractor who needs more than 100 if they would pre-commit to a contract in April, May, if all the municipalities are signing in April and May, which I think a lot of them do, all the states were signing probably in February for the following year, like then the mining companies and the the barges, they could all plan for the right level of demand. but It's the same issue as us as contractors trying to plan for fleet or us as OEMs who build product trying to plan for how much inventory to stock like no one signs their frickin stuff until October, November, December. so they don't want to commit to the cost.
00:41:12
Speaker
yeah It's like such a broken system. And it all in my mind, maybe not with government because I know government's a big user, but like on the contractor side, it all starts with getting contracts signed earlier. That fixes that fixes the game for for dealerships, it fixes the game for OEMs, it fixes the game for salt suppliers. Like, can we just get contracts signed earlier? And I know the answer is no, but it has to be yes. Like it fixes everything.
00:41:39
Speaker
I don't know why it's it has to be no. I don't know. Well, it doesn't have to be no. It just it does like it you know it just feels like it is because people say they want to do it and then they don't do it.
00:41:51
Speaker
So you are an afterthought. Yeah. Well, that is true. Yes, we're an afterthought. So what can guys out there, what's everybody's what's everybody's thoughts, recommendations?
00:42:02
Speaker
If guys are in an area with a salt shortage you know where they they're cut off, what options do they have? What can they do? Firebrand. Firebrand. Hit it once. It's good for the whole year. Throw on a new spray bar. That's two. Bigger holes. Here we go. Bigger holes. Minneapolis market guys are trucking in stuff from they were doing Iowa that that ran out now they're going Kansas City and Texas so basically it's just get a good relationship built with your supplier and typically they can find somebody to get it and that's that's the huge thing is this the relationship relationship you know if you if you go to a
00:42:46
Speaker
shouldn't even say names, but like you go to a site one here in the cities to go buy salt, they're buying it through a broker, which is getting it through a Cargill and whatnot. And if you can kind of cut out the middleman and just didn't have that relationship built, it usually helps you out. Boy, if we could cut out the middleman in all things, everything. Jesus, would that be great?
00:43:05
Speaker
Oh my gosh. um I would agree with that. I think, I think you're, your guys that are supplying your salt probably know all the people and they probably have a way to get it. It just costs money. It's just, yeah if it trucks further, it costs more. Like I think in 2010, we ended up getting salt from Kansas city.
00:43:23
Speaker
um I think same thing in 2015, 16 with the polar vortex. I think we went Kansas city. and maybe maybe Texas too. And like we got good salt, it just, it costs twice as much, but like, I'm not saying it's okay for salt to cost twice as much, but if your contracts are big correctly, like cost of goods sold percentage of salt on your contract, it should be a pretty low percentage, right? Like if 50% of your contract cost of salt, you you bid your site wrong.
00:43:49
Speaker
Yeah, you know you need you need a remedial course. Yeah. So and we're talking about a 100% increase in the salt price, but but that might only be 10% of your contract costs. So really it's like, you know I'm not saying it doesn't matter. It does matter. It definitely does. Because if you get it like this winter's been a ton of events of a half inch to an inch,
00:44:09
Speaker
So basically all your cost is salt right now. That's true. That that does change when it's like that. Yeah. So you're going to be able to balance it out because you're not plowing, right? Because you're bidding with X amount of plows, but you're really you're really hitting salt hard this year with these small events.
00:44:23
Speaker
Yep. yeah Because if when you have the big events, right, you don't use as much salt. It just doesn't happen because you're just you out, you you push it, you get it, you salt it. But when you get these, like we've been having a lot of lake effect, which you guys don't get and different things like that. And it's a half inch,
00:44:37
Speaker
you know, in an hour and then you get it all salted down and four hours later you get another inch, you know, you're you're you're going through salt. Yeah, that was our December. that was oh yeah jesus That's how we were. And that's why made a lot of salt I know you guys, Steve mentioned earlier and Patrick earlier, you know, bringing in stuff from the Middle East or Egypt salt or whatnot. We did that here in Minnesota, probably it was a 2020 we brought in a barge load. It's a little different from you guys because we have the we have to come up through the river through the barges. And we got a great price on the salt and we're going to save a bunch of money. But at the end of the day, that was the world's most expensive salt because the barge came in early, way early, weeks early.
00:45:16
Speaker
They called us. They didn't give us a heads up till the barge was at port. And we had three days to get this 4,200 tons offloaded. oh you didn't have our We didn't have our bunkers all set up by no means not set up. So we had a, you know, we were double trucking, double handling, double tarping, you name it. At the end of the day, it was like, well, that was a big failure, you know.
00:45:36
Speaker
But I mean, that look that is ignore that's a good point, though. I mean, this is an American salt shortage. It's not an international salt shortage. Like, I mean, you if you're close to ports, you will have no problem getting salt. salt Yeah, see, for you guys, that's much easier. Like for us in Michigan, by the time...
00:45:53
Speaker
like say egyptian salt hits michigan it's about the same cost as us salt right so now you have guys the brokers they don't want to bring in the egyptian salt because truly that's a gamble that you're going to have a bad winner and they're going to be able to put that into the market and sell it because if the costs are the same people aren't going to buy the egyptian salt they're going to buy the american salt yep steve when you guys had that hundred inch winner did you guys run out of salt was there a shortage It got short at the end. We start bringing some in from Kansas City. Okay.
00:46:25
Speaker
Good to know. Good to know. I don't feel like it was like this year, though. It wasn't like this year by no means. Nope. This was end of the season. This was February, probably March, actually. I think I remember hauling in, trucking in some of the Kansas City salt full of shale. but Guys were asking about that, too. Is the Kansas City salt with the shales and hard on the equipment? No, it spreads the same. Yeah, spreads the same. It's dirty. You wouldn't want to make brine out of it, but it's... ah no What, the Egyptian stuff? No, the Kansas City. Oh, the Kansas City stuff.
00:46:58
Speaker
Gotcha. Yeah, i think I think part of that, Steve, is 40 inches of that 100 happened in February to the and three years ago, right? like Yes. we got We got a season's worth in February towards the end of the year. i think that's why the shortage started later.
00:47:12
Speaker
Hmm. well I think you're going to see it really hit the fan here. If the weather's correct, we get the snow we're supposed to get this week. We have like four storms of an inch to an inch and a half lined up from Tuesday to Saturday.
00:47:25
Speaker
And then another, they're saying on the next week, there's not going any salt. You're going see the ah very... very high demand for salt. yeah I mean, I shipped salt to Ohio you didn't last week for a couple of guys and did say, I mean, it's, it's short. I mean, we've had, it's short. Ohio's in bad, yeah, they're in a bad spot. They're a bad spot and they're trying to get it Michigan's in the same boat right now. Michigan's literally just the way from cracking.
00:47:49
Speaker
So Matt, you sell salt, your company itself. What do you guys, you got a lot on hand or you how are you looking? um Right now I have about 2,500 tons in my yard right now. So,
00:48:01
Speaker
So we have that and then I still have some on reserve and like I said, I bought some more expensive salt. I bought 1500 tons, you know, at that price. So So what do you do? You mix all that salt together with what you already have? Yeah, I mean, again, it's just kind of a, you know, it's going to work its way out. But for my customers in my yard and stuff, you know, I'm trying to keep everyone to have salt. At the end of the day, it can screw me. I can tell you in 2015 it happened. we We had a salt shortage. I bought salt from Maryland. I brought in 4,000 tons. I stored 3,700 that 4,000 tons that I paid $157 for all summer at someone else's yard, moved it twice, did all that, and lost my ass.
00:48:48
Speaker
oh you know It happens. Everyone thinks the salt guy's getting rich, but the salt guy takes it in the ass too. so i I do want to correct one thing. You said we're if we're getting these inch to an inch and a half storms, we're not we're using more salt than when we're getting these big storms because you don't use as much salt.
00:49:06
Speaker
The DOTs use just as much, if not more, on big storms than they do on an inch, inch and a half. Black and wet, baby. We were getting two to three inch an hour snowfall rates, and the state trucks were still gating it out the back. Yeah. It'd be they would if they would check their spinner every once in a while and see if that's going, you know, instead of just pouring it straight on the... I see now, Jeremy, this year the new thing is MnDOT's not even using many spinners. or They got basically like a tube that's coming right off the outer. Yeah, I see it. Keep it from flying. But I was ah last night, Steve, we we were going when you called me, I was going out to dinner with my wife and I was going by the Buck Hill Ski Area in Burnsville and there was a DOT. It was... Slightly flurrying out, but the roads, you know, they got to be out. But he was going and it was just a steady line of salt coming out of this tube. And I was shaking my head. I was just like, dude, the ground's white. Like, I get it, right? Like, you got to be out making your making your scene, you know, because it's snowing out a little bit.
Liquid De-Icers and Brine Technologies
00:50:02
Speaker
But, man, it was just like pouring out of this tube.
00:50:05
Speaker
It looked like a drain tile on the corner of the truck, and it's just pouring there. I just saw that the other day in town. was like, what the fuck? He's just leaving a trail down the one side. Yeah. And when it's not hitting, what's going on? So it's not throwing and bouncing all over. They're using the tubes right off the auger, but they still have their augers on 9 or 10 because it's just pouring straight out now. So they're just leaving road stripes. Yes. Yeah.
00:50:27
Speaker
ah Not even where you're driving. These are the two lines to stay between, people. Yeah. So put it on the center's center line. So in case you cross over, you might catch a tire on it. But that's bad. Like, that's a big problem. I've noticed it this year, maybe because we've done so much talking about liquids and, you know, responsible, you know, responsible salting, you know, sustainable de-icing, all that stuff in the last year.
00:50:53
Speaker
But I'm noticing it like – These municipal trucks are just dumping, dumping product. They're the worst offenders. Yeah, 100% they're the worst offenders.
00:51:04
Speaker
For MassDOT, you know, we go to the, they call it toolbox training, toolbox talk, and, you know, wear your safety equipment, your lights, this, that. and Never, never, never put it out above 240, 240, 240. The second degrees in rain, hit it hit it
00:51:20
Speaker
They talk about how much money they spend on salt remediation and putting filtration systems in people's homes and replacing and drilling new wells and then hit it at 480, hit it at 480, hit it at 480. It's just astronomical. you guys ever think anything's going to seriously be done about that?
00:51:38
Speaker
Yeah, per lane mile, yeah. Jesus. yeah do we Do we think anything's ever going to be done about that on state government levels? Yeah. I mean, I will give a little bit of credit to them this year. Everything that had a significant rate height for equipment was liquid related. So they are trying to push that. They really push, hey, you know, you guys got your numbers up in this district for the pre-wet.
00:52:04
Speaker
let's Let's get it a little higher this year. That means you know you're using it. MassDOT is testing two liquid-only routes as well this year, which is impressive for them. um So they're definitely going that direction. They're wanting to. Is that easy for them?
00:52:21
Speaker
Patty, is that easy for them to do because they do so little plowing and hold so little equipment themselves, they subcontract everything? Yeah, i think it's I think it's a lot easier. you know we just We just put on ah another spray truck last week for for pre-treating, and and for they're starting to let us use it in the storm too, which before they never let us do that.
00:52:40
Speaker
got to shut down this chat box. odd but they're They're getting there. They're getting there, but still, when it's just hit it at 480, hit it 480. They're just going backwards at the same time.
00:52:54
Speaker
No, i I understand, believe me. I was able to drive from my house four blocks out of my neighborhood without my four tires touching pavement the other night.
00:53:06
Speaker
It was an emerald green highway.
00:53:11
Speaker
Isn't that what the wizard was? it was something, to dude. I'm like, yeah, um I've gone about a half a mile, and my Ford tires have not seen asphalt yet until I got onto the main road.
00:53:22
Speaker
the The crazy thing, too, is like the the the research... like long-term research shows that on roadways, 75% of the salt that gets put down does not actually thises get used. It just goes right into the ditch.
00:53:39
Speaker
And like with how much they spend on these state and municipal trucks, there there are ways, especially with liquid, like I'm biased, of course, to liquid, but like there's ways to use more liquid, less salt, and the liquid helps it stick to the road. It also helps it activate faster. So it actually gets used. Like, you know,
00:53:54
Speaker
with the right trucks, they're already spending half a million bucks on these truck builds. Like, why not put more liquid capacity to get the stuff to state of the road better? Like, ah Steve, I don't know if you've noticed, but I've seen the state of Minnesota really ramping up the amount of liquid they're using.
00:54:09
Speaker
I was driving up to ah Coon Rapids yesterday, which is about two hours north of where I'm from. And we had kind of a I wouldn't call it freezing fog. It was more like, I think they call it like hoarfrost, right? Is that what it's called? like yeah It's like where they you physically, like it didn't snow, but like there's so much moisture and the temperature gradients near in the ground that crystals form on the ground. It's crazy. Oh yeah, it pulls the frost up out of the ground. Yeah.
00:54:36
Speaker
And um so we had that yesterday morning. i don't know why it's called whore. It's H-O-A-R, not the kind you're thinking of, all of you perverts. um And they they were just treating with straight liquid.
00:54:48
Speaker
Like they were just spraying the highways in the interstate with liquid, which, you know, I first started seeing that in our local district like two or three years ago, post-treating with liquid, but now I'm seeing it on the federal, the interstate. So someone's doing something. It's probably not enough, but- Where I'm going with this is like what we talked about in the economic discussion, even if we reduce usage, that just means the suppliers are going to lower yeah the amount that they store.
00:55:18
Speaker
yep Which means that if we get more snow, we're still gonna run out. Like again, the issue is not that we're gonna run of salt. The issue is that how much salt is sitting there ready to go. and put How much they're gonna bring in. yeah They're not just, they're they're not bringing it out of the ground.
00:55:31
Speaker
Right, we've had the issue where our state's DOT and stuff, they're going to use more and more liquid, which is fine, but they always seem to use it at the wrong time. Like I say, we get the wind out here,
00:55:42
Speaker
They cause more problems by putting liquid down when it's going windy as fuck. And then the road just turns to shit because all the snow catches on the road instead of blowing right across. you know I'm like, you guys should be smarter than that. You know where these areas are that are so bad. It's the same it's the same area every every time. It's like, why did we put a liquid down? You just screwed the whole road.
00:56:03
Speaker
Give him the recipe for fire, Brian. He won't have any problems. should. Even the timing, though, like like Jeremy said, you know, we don't have the problem with the blowing wind and the dry snow. and I love it, right? We get paid by the hour. Who cares? But we go out and pre-treat when the roads they the roads already have half an inch of salt on them from the night before. all right, we're going to go out pre-treat tonight. Like, there's enough chloride on the road. You're activating it.
00:56:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:30
Speaker
I'm not going to complain. We're getting paid, right? We're doing the job. We're getting hired, but it's just it's not necessary. No, it's not. that's And that's the problem. know but What are you going to do?
00:56:40
Speaker
What else? What else? How is this? I'll ask Patty and Jordan a question here. ah Have last year and this year's salt shortages, have you seen a spike in guys actually pulling the trigger on liquids, just getting tired of dealing with the shit?
00:56:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was new to it last year still. Definitely towards the end, a lot of equipment to the Midwest. Salt shortage, salt shortage. yeah I mean, I think I sent three brine makers out this week, four maybe, but all Missouri, Minnesota, Michigan, all for for salt shortage reasons. sent three or four brine makers out this week?
00:57:18
Speaker
Yeah. How many did you sell preseason going into it? Um... probably somewhere around 10. So yeah, in one week, that's pretty damn good.
00:57:29
Speaker
Yeah. It's all good. And it was all for, Hey, tell me how to cut down on my salt usage. Tell me how to make my salt usage. Tell me how to extend my salt usage because I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to get it.
00:57:40
Speaker
Yeah. Where are they get the salt to make the brine. Well, but they're just trying to extend how far they can go with this. I understand, but you can't get the salt to make the brine right now either. I know that. You're not wrong. If they have, but a lot of these guys have piles already. If they're investing around if they're investing in a, you know, 50, 60, $70,000 brine maker setup, they probably have a salt bin. So they probably have something that maybe they have a hundred ton pile they're trying to extend. You know, I know a lot of guys here in Michigan and trying to find it like crazy. They can't get it.
00:58:10
Speaker
Yeah. What's solar salt? Yeah. It's one of the hardest things to get. I mean, that was short before a regular salt. You can get it, right, Pat? Yeah. Yeah, lots of it. There you go. 400 a ton. Solar salt comes out of Mexico for us. And the Caribbean, yeah. Is your solar salt out there? Sorry.
00:58:30
Speaker
Say that, Jeremy. How much is your solar salt there? We're 113 a ton delivered.
00:58:37
Speaker
But we'll get it to Michigan for 400 a ton. Cool? Yay. I want you one. You knew my math. Oh, man. I mean, you can you you can make Brian with regular salt at the end of the day. Yeah, he's got to clean it up. You've got to clean it out a little more often. You know, like Ohio. Ohio is horrible. I've never seen dirtier salt in Ohio and then upstate New York.
00:58:59
Speaker
Whoa. yeah close up kansas city too big the kansas city so i have a couple customers in kansas city that just cuss over how bad that salt is for making brine and it is it's full of that shale that shale it's yeah oh yeah that's what's the shale come from the mining process it's it just it's in the ground it's in the ground with the salt in the ground the shell veins are intertwined with the salt veins yeah good luck not breaking that stuff and cracking up the little chips For for reference, Patty, it's like three or four batches in a Legacy Brine Maker and you've got about 800 pounds to clean out.
00:59:35
Speaker
oh See, I can do almost 300,000 gallons before I get to clean out with the solar salt we get. we're We're about the same. Clean out once or twice a year.
00:59:47
Speaker
Jordan, what have you noticed VSI by boss with the, you know, Patty can tell you just what he sold, but what have you, what are you noticing about guys pulling the trigger on liquids? Well, I don't know. Patty went ahead and just bought out all the inventory. So like yeah he's better one to ask. we're she's not left Now we're sold out. I mean, I think we got a few random products that are not high sell through, but yeah, it todays ago thats all airhouse it's been a three X expected volume type year for liquid equipment.
01:00:13
Speaker
Wow. That's great. Well, yeah that should bring the price down. Doesn't mean people aren't pissed off. They can't get equipment. Patty can tell you about that too. Yeah. A lot of, I'm getting involved every day. People are mad at me. I'm like, can't control, i can't control this.
01:00:28
Speaker
ah what do you tv nights You can make your own spare. Yeah. I can't. I'm legally restricted. Patty, you can if you want.
01:00:40
Speaker
Kidding. stray bar patty You can put that make your own spray bar. je jeremy's yeah mean we make spraybar it think You better put a patent on that thing real quick. Yeah, that thing's sweet, isn't it? Glacier 5000. That just made me laugh. fire i was dying So stupid.
01:00:59
Speaker
Solid flames are going to be shooting out of the back of that truck. That's so dumb. You guys can't even imagine. So, Matt, how now, because you sell it, like, how does this work for you as a business? Like, everything works on projections and stuff, right? Like, does this just, like, blow your mind? Are you worried now from December 1st when they start talking about shortage all the way until May?
Winter Operation Challenges and Rising Costs
01:01:26
Speaker
Yeah, so, like, the biggest thing is – um When they start talking shorter to me, I start worrying about the state coming to get salt from where where you know where my reserve sits and stuff.
01:01:38
Speaker
And when that starts to happen, yeah, that i mean that'll be a business crusher. I mean, besides not having salt, you know, because we- To use. Yeah. or use you too Yeah, so we use it too and not to have that. So that- That's a huge problem. When you start hearing that, then you start to worry and they're starting to really so like at Detroit salt, they're really slowing down regular contractors getting salt out of there. If you're not the state, you, you can't even get into the mines until 9am now.
01:02:06
Speaker
Um, And I think you've got to be out of there by two. from You have the op opportunity from nine to, and now they're even- Yeah, that's union hours. Yeah, so then the brokers, you know you have the brokers that have the salt, and they're only letting, those guys have big numbers, but say you're one of their customers, if that broker's only getting 100 tons or 200 tons out of there a day, and he has all these customers, your you're just not getting salt. yeah And it's getting to that point. It's it's bad right now here for that. How much do you go through in an average winter between sales and use?
01:02:38
Speaker
About 15,000. Okay. okay And you said you have how much on hand? 2,500? Yeah, 2,500 right now. Okay. Yeah, we loaded up the yard. We had you know we didn't have a lot of snow last week, so we loaded up the yard she's and filled it up. and So you need to be able to take in a bunch more loads. Okay.
01:02:54
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So, but like over the holidays, it's going to get salt in. So like we were bringing salt in, but we blew out of salt. Like I was down to 70 tons in my yard. Oh, wow. Wow.
01:03:06
Speaker
So we we flew through it. And yeah, so we're full and I bought some more. And depending on where goes, I mean, I truly think I will probably be, if January looks like it's going to be what it is, will be I'll be buying expensive salt to keep salt in.
01:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, second half of January looks back to gangbusters like December was. yeah What do you keep on hand for yourself, Matt, so you keep make sure snow business doesn't run out? When do you quit selling? That's always a hard thing to do when you sell to customers and you put a pile in the corner, you get a lot of people asking questions and stuff. So this year, i started. Fuck off.
01:03:45
Speaker
That simple. Fuck off. That's why. I wish you could say it. It doesn't work that way. um But we started running some um turbo melt to try to, uh,
01:03:56
Speaker
not use as much. So I want to try this shit. How is it? We love it. Yeah. Yeah. We love it. I've heard a lot of good things about it. It works. I got to get turbo Todd on the phone. I, Jeremy got me his number. i really want to try that stuff and see how it compares to IBG.
01:04:11
Speaker
We've used it. Um, like that way I've been using it in, um, my sidewalk machines in the liquid part and, uh, mixing it in with Brian. And it's been it's been great.
01:04:22
Speaker
so That's awesome. Good to hear. tos But no, I think winter is going to be a great winter for people. I think guys are going to have fantastic winters, but it's going to be a headache of getting salt, and going to pay more for it. so Well, how long a drive is it from Michigan to New York?
01:04:41
Speaker
Well, I mean, i got it from Maryland before. i mean, we've done it I've bought from Maryland, you know, a lot. ah We were told no shortage. We don't do that here. They are starting to truck it out of here, though, for sure. Yes, they are. I heard a couple people say what Matt just said, they you know who have salt yards. Yeah, we know we can get it. The problem is we can't get it fast enough, and it's getting more expensive because – they're not allowing us, the landscape yards to come in till 9am. And now I have a truck that was normally doing three loads a day. He's sitting in line all morning and we're doing one load a day. and so So even though the price of salt hasn't changed, truck
01:05:22
Speaker
transportation costs have gone through the roof as well as how quickly they can replenish it yeah so they're still buying the salt at the same price but the transportation is what's making the per ton price go up drastically that's like my soul that i bought that was expensive wasn't for transportation it's just because i bought it from a broker that has a lot of salt still and he's got his price up right so they're gonna make their money because it's in such high demand Right. I was, yeah, strictly for our area. That's called gouging.
01:05:53
Speaker
um i don't I don't know what a commodity, if you can call it gouging or not, but yeah. No, it's it is what it is at the end of the day. Well, the trucking thing is 100% accurate. yeah My buddy's company, the truck Salt, he said we were were're down. We were getting three to four loads a day if we were there right at at rope drop in the morning. We were getting three to four loads a day. the lines are so long now for trucks going out of state that we're getting one load out a day per truck. He said, so we we got to make the same amount of money. That truck's still running all day. We have to make the same amount of money as when we're running three loads or four loads.
01:06:33
Speaker
i said I get it. It's it's a shit burger all the way around. But, you know, let's hit some commercials real quick and we'll come back. We'll keep kicking this thing till it's dead.
Advertisements and Contract Signing Difficulties
01:06:41
Speaker
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01:07:46
Speaker
All right gang, we're back. Thanks for hanging with us through the commercials. um I think we're, have we killed this thing? we've We've explored all possibilities that we know how to do.
01:07:57
Speaker
until We all have our own opinions and beliefs, right? Yeah. One thing that kind of stood out earlier that I ran into this year, talking about, you know, people got to get contracts signed earlier, right? you can plan on what you use. One thing that I ran into this year, and I just went back and looked, um we didn't get our salt prices until October 3rd this year.
01:08:21
Speaker
Yes. That's very frustrating when you're trying to get contracts signed. Especially for me, one of the big things is is we were trying to sign contracts bids for Brian, right? With with different DOTs and universities and just other people who were going to be, who had to be locked in. And when we can't get our SALT price until October, it's tough to actually finalize all those contracts.
01:08:46
Speaker
I will say this. I asked in July because I always ask before the before the final bids are going out and stuff. And my guy has said no increase and he did not increase it yeah because he said, you know, you always wait for that October bump.
01:09:01
Speaker
You know, everything in snow costs more after September 1st. But if he said there'd be no increase and there wouldn't. And there's this big shortage and we still haven't increased. so yeah Yeah, we had a ah small one, and you can just plan for it, right? all right Hey, every year goes up 2%, whatever. Plan it that way. but um ah That would definitely be helpful.
01:09:23
Speaker
But yeah, no increases here.
Episode Conclusion and Safety Warnings
01:09:25
Speaker
Sweet, boys. Anybody got anything else before we wrap it up?
01:09:31
Speaker
All right, cool. Then we'll do that. We'll wrap it up. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. That was a lot of good info. lot of ah different areas of the country covered. So there should be enough for guys in every corner of the Snow Jobs universe to be sufficiently angry.
01:09:47
Speaker
You know, listen, everybody go to Clippers and buy them out. Yep. You know, Matt's fine. Buy all the salt. Buy all the salt. Yes. Buy all the salt. The pile on the right is the one you want to hit.
01:10:01
Speaker
Exactly. That one. Make Matt work. The one Mark private. Oh, man. All right, guys. Well, listen, thanks so much. As always, we appreciate your time. We appreciate your expertise.
01:10:14
Speaker
We love having you on So we'll wrap it there. That'll do it, guys. Episode 153 of the Snow Jaws podcast main show is over in the books. All right. Thanks again to the boys for the time. That is it. Everybody be safe out there. If you're in the Northeast and i think even parts of the Midwest, I think we're getting back to snow late this week.
01:10:34
Speaker
So if you're getting snow, get out there. Be careful. Be safe. Have a great week.