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The Dark Side of Boy Bands… and What It Takes to Pitch a Dream
37 Plays1 month ago
Talking out loud about the stuff that won’t leave us alone.
This week James brings Boy Band Confidential and a conversation about the machine behind 90s and early 2000s pop stardom. We talk about boy bands, nostalgia, exploitation, bad deals, and what it looks like when young artists are shaped by people with more power than them.
Curt brings the process of pitching a feature film before it exists. He talks about building a pitch deck, cutting a sizzle, communicating tone, and learning how to get people emotionally invested in a movie that has not been made yet.
We also talk about:
• Boy bands and the darker side of the industry
• The pressure placed on young performers
• Pitching a creative vision
• Why feeling matters more than plot
• Getting collaborators on the same wavelength
So… what are you into right now?
Email us:
sowhatareyouintopod@gmail.com
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Transcript
Celebrating the Podcast's Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
ah Welcome back to So What Are You Into? We back. It's episode nine. Is it really? Are you keeping are you keeping track at all? Kurt, you know I do not count. I just, I show up, I look pretty, I sound great, and then I walk out the door. it is true.
00:00:16
Speaker
yeah You're like, I have no space in my life for admin documenting. Listen, we had to go through like seven emails last episode because it's just taken us that long to get to it. So as you can tell, the organization on this part is a little wonky.
00:00:32
Speaker
It's episode nine, though. That's actually really exciting to me. I don't know how long I'm going to keep up
Creative Discipline and Health
00:00:38
Speaker
talking about that. I'm proud of the episode. Oh, it's playing again. Oh, we're just starting over.
00:00:43
Speaker
I don't know how long I'm going to keep up saying how i'm that I'm proud of the episode number, but i am because so many podcasts die on the vine. And I think every time we do another episode, I go we're still doing it. That's amazing.
00:00:57
Speaker
still so much of So much of the last like last year of my creative discovery of trying to get back in touch with creativity is coming to the realization that there's no magic sauce, there's no secret formula.
00:01:10
Speaker
it is just about doing a thing consistently enough so that it becomes a routine. Like that is kind of the big secret. People ask me, what's your, you know, young artists, or people reach out to me when I'm coaching or teaching, like what, what's the secret? And I'm like, you just kind of got to keep doing it so long that your odds are someone's going to hear about you eventually. Right. Oh yeah. Oh, big time. You know, and you know what's so weird is that I think part of me help what's helped me understand that is going to the gym a lot more in the last year.
00:01:43
Speaker
Yes. I've set a schedule for myself. yeah And so I have to meet that schedule. So even something like, Hey, we're recording the podcast on a Tuesday or a Wednesday. I make sure that I create the mental space and I create the spot of my schedule. So I know I'm committed to doing this thing and showing up.
Kurt's Creative Ventures
00:02:00
Speaker
So that's, that's, what's helped me do that.
00:02:02
Speaker
I don't like to talk about gym stuff much because I feel like people um' automatically and unjustifiably think like, oh, is this like, are you like a gym bro? like And I want to not be that.
00:02:14
Speaker
But I will say it's something I've been thinking about so much in the last year. James and I have both been on a, I would say, strength journey. Absolutely. Just trying to get stronger and whatever. I have found so much overlap with the discipline of going to the gym, not to achieve a certain aesthetic or whatever, but to just genuinely go, am I taking care of myself? Am i focusing on being healthy and strong?
00:02:39
Speaker
That overlap into creativity I did not go into the last year of trying to become stronger at the gym thinking it would inspire me creatively, but it has been so helpful in the exercise of literally sitting there going, I don't really want to do this. I would rather be scrolling my phone or anything else than But I know if I just do it, I'm going to feel better at the end. And that first two or three months back in the beginning of 2025, when I was trying to get into the habit of it, it felt like pulling teeth to go.
00:03:15
Speaker
And then it just you just do it enough that... Like after this afternoon, later, I'm just gonna be like, okay, i gotta go i just I gotta go do it. Kind of going to the gym now in the last year has started to feel almost like brushing my teeth or something. I'm like, I'm not stoked to do it always, but it's just a thing.
00:03:33
Speaker
But then you see the payoff. And I think creatively it's the same thing. I think a lot of times artists, we're waiting to feel this profound excitement and meaning before we do the thing.
00:03:45
Speaker
so that we can find the will to activate, but actually just doing it consistently and monotonously gets you to where you want to be way, way more effectively than waiting around for the inspiration to strike.
00:03:59
Speaker
So anyway, this episode of, so what are you into is brought to you by peptides and pre-workout. So let's a little catch up on life real quick. Kurt, what's just been going on in your life? How how are you doing?
00:04:13
Speaker
Oh, man, it's been a busy few weeks. i have been traveling a lot. I've been back and forth to Texas several times. um I was teaching a workshop there. i was working with some artists there. i was ah meeting with some folks about specifically the thing I want to talk about later today.
00:04:29
Speaker
I'm in the process of trying to get a feature film off the ground that I'm hoping to direct. um And so and it's a a project that would actually shoot in Texas. And so just starting the preliminary process, speaking about starting a thing before it feels like ready, just just beginning conversations and beginning to move a rock up a hill and see where it goes. So.
00:04:56
Speaker
I did that, I came back. Kim has been in Atlanta shooting a TV show. She came back, our friend was premiering a film at the Dallas International Film Festival, and we were like, you know what?
00:05:08
Speaker
he we need You gotta show up, for we gotta show up, we gotta go. So we got but got plane tickets, flew back, saw his movie, had more meetings. So it's been really rewarding. I'm just so i'm so depleted and I'm so exhausted.
Musical Production Preparations
00:05:24
Speaker
Yeah. From traveling so much and kind of being out of my rhythm. So today is my first day getting back to a little, a little semblance of like, what is like normal life. But what about you? You've been in rehearsals. You got a lot coming up.
00:05:37
Speaker
Yes. Knee deep in a guy who didn't like musical rehearsals. um Yeah. We, we started last week. It's been a whirlwind in LA because we head to London on Saturday night.
00:05:47
Speaker
um And then we're wait and like in in a few days. Wow. Yes. In a few days. Yeah. So we're we're about to head out um and then, yeah, we'll have some more rehearsals and then the show opens in two weeks, which is nuts to think about. um But yeah, we'll be there. But honestly, it's been so much fun. You know, this so this basically being the third time we've all done this. um You know, it's revisiting things that we, it's already in our blood. The timing is already there. um Choreographically, I'm not changing a whole lot, but there are some things that will be specific to our London production.
Documentary Filmmaking Insights
00:06:22
Speaker
um I don't want to speak for Lauren on anything that she's worked on, but I do think the the London audience is going to get a ah nice, unique show, but still has the same integrity of what we saw um last year in LA and also what people will see in the pro shot, which you, by the way, congratulations. I saw the the trailer for that. um And I know you worked on the editing. I didn't do any of the pro shot editing.
00:06:45
Speaker
Oh, I thought you, oh, that's right. You worked on the documentary. That was all, just to shout them out, all Josh Fleury. Hatchetfield's, the Hatchfield High School Band's own Josh Fleury has been just busting his butt making that happen. I um am in the process of finishing up a making of the guy who didn't like musicals, sort of sort of a behind the scenes interviews with the cast and the crew.
00:07:10
Speaker
um It is a great reminder that I need to finish that. So so that's why yeah I did this so I could you know ping you to you get it done. I am excited um just just to wrap that up though. I'm really excited to be able to share this this documentary, The Making Of, because what was cool about doing it is you know So often we just are just scrambling to just get a thing off the ground.
00:07:36
Speaker
The way theater works, the way making things work, it's just a very tight timetable. And because you guys were revisiting Guy last year, and of course you're doing it now, there was a chance to really have some breathing room to be able to talk to people about creativity and and to have the reflection creativity.
00:07:52
Speaker
It not just be a lot times the shows we do are like, well, we don't really know what it is yet. We're in rehearsals. We'll figure it out. And then it's already out there. And it was cool. i think people will see in this in this edit, like you speak about your vision, what what it was, where your headspace was at.
00:08:08
Speaker
six, seven, eight years ago versus now. And it's it's a really cool, I found it really interesting creatively to hear Lauren talk a a lot about her vision. Nick talk about like where the concept came from, where these ideas
Exposing the Boy Band Industry's Dark Side
00:08:21
Speaker
came from. So if you're in if you're into like understanding sort of the creative process, this would be, I think it'd be really cool. And I think Josh has done an incredible job juggling.
00:08:32
Speaker
You would, die guys, you would not believe how complicated the pro shot is conceptually. I think in in in your in your mind, you're like, whatever, you film a few shows, cut it together.
00:08:45
Speaker
You have to time sync 12 different microphones from different performances. The music, like the the layers of syncing of things is so insanely complicated. You cannot even begin to wrap your head around it. When I did it for Nerdy Prudes, i it kind of rocked my world. I was like, this is so complicated.
00:09:09
Speaker
um So I just want to shout out Josh because I have been in those trenches. And it's like, my my goodness, it is ah it is a beast of a thing to wrangle.
00:09:19
Speaker
um But he looks amazing. So anyway, shout out to Josh. Yeah, shout out Josh. All right. Well, um i can I can start off with my what I'm into this week if you would like.
00:09:31
Speaker
I would love to. James, what are you into? All right. So i would say in the better part of this last year, not only have I been going to the gym more, but I think that was a cathartic release ah in addition to my kind of coming to terms with where I am at in this industry, what I'm trying to do, what i what I want from it. It just so happened in the last week, something fell into my lap in the form of a docuseries. It's called Boy Band Confidential.
00:09:58
Speaker
Now, I'm going to preface all this. I know that here, in at least in the States, we have this obsession with these dark retellings of things that we once loved and putting this in this very moody atmosphere with a ah blue tone on the screen so everything looks dark and and dismal. But ah what I am interested in is This idea that these things that we loved when we were younger, like I love boy bands. I thought they were so cool. Oh, Kurt. Okay. If you're listening, Kurt just put a blue filter on himself. um
00:10:33
Speaker
but yeah's real The real story. and um But yeah, so we're we're thinking back in the 90s where we're seeing you know the NSYNCs, the Backstreet Boys, the Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera.
00:10:44
Speaker
of that time catapulted into superstardom and you know obviously we we are past what michael jackson was when he was first coming out so that had already happened um you know we and and he was probably the most famous star of that time and so now we're watching this new generation of artists come up but what is very common in their industry and i'd say even entertainment at large is this People, the system where people that are in power are taking advantage of those that have the talent and the will to want to better their lives with their talent.
00:11:21
Speaker
Unfortunately, what comes with that is a lot of deception, sometimes abuse, sometimes financial ruin. There's a a lot that can come with that because The entertainment industry is a microcosm of just the world at large. And once again, we're watching really the pitfalls of capitalism, the people at the top taking advantage of those below them. So Boy Band Confidential ah is, I um want to say, partly produced by Joey Fatone.
00:11:51
Speaker
Uh, he's kind of the main voice behind this two part series. And it does talk to a few members of Backstreet Boys, NSYNC, 98 Degrees, O-Town, and then a few other groups. O-Town. Wow.
00:12:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. Yes. What a throwback. Wait, can I, can I ask you a really quick question right in the middle of, i know you're about to launch into it and I'm so excited to hear your thoughts. Were boy bands as influential for you as a performer as they were for me? Like,
00:12:21
Speaker
Watching NSYNC, Backstreet Boys, whatever, was so formative for me at in the, you know, whatever, 1998. Young, impressionable me going, that's so cool. Singing and dancing. And like, I want to do that. Was that was that formative for you?
00:12:39
Speaker
It was. Yeah. So it it's interesting that you say that because the way it's automatically framed in the first episode is that they talk about the fact that you're coming out of the eighties with a new kids on the block and more specifically boys to men in the early nineties. Now boys to men, they weren't known for dancing though. They could, they were just really great singers. And so we were very incredible, incredible harmonies and just mind boggling vocals. Yeah, exactly. What happened was,
00:13:05
Speaker
ah They, Boyz II Men releases um one of my favorite songs, which is One Sweet Day with Mariah Carey. This is around like 1995-ish. They, it's a great, beautiful song, but it does not chart the way that they were hoping for. They're signed to Motown Records. They go away for a little bit. By that point, that had been like four years of them just grinding and and just getting their music out there. And that song underperforms. So they take a little hiatus. In that hiatus,
00:13:33
Speaker
certain minds and of the produce of the music industry decided, let's get some groups together, but let's get them let's get them dancing. Let's get them moving a little bit more. Let's change the image of what a boy band looks like. And so by the time that Boyz II Men kind of comes back, i want to say 96, 97,
00:13:48
Speaker
They're already starting to get sort of replaced by the Backstreet Boys. And then even Motown, their record label, pretty much ousts them for 98 degrees, which is a strange sentence to say. But Motown was thinking we need to capitalize because at this point, Backstreet Boys was already establishing itself. And NSYNC was now a rumor coming in.
00:14:09
Speaker
And so to some Motown, they were thinking, all right, well, we need to get on that. So let's ignore these really talented black guys and get four white dudes in here and try to make magic with that. And and what's so interesting about that story.
00:14:23
Speaker
Yes. What's so interesting about that story is that the documentary also leaves boys to men in that exact moment. You never hear from them again. even though they still existed past that. but So it's it's very interesting that that happened. um But anyway, so we i i I want to chronicle so much about it, but I think I just want to let people watch it for themselves. But when you think about ah Lou Pearlman, who is the big name behind your Backstreet Boys, NSYNC, all those groups.
00:14:52
Speaker
um He was not a good individual. He's just had a lot of money and he just had a lot of connections. And so you' you're we're, as the fans, we're amazed by this tight choreography. And yes, to to answer your question, Kurt, for me, growing up as a boy who was dancing, who was made fun of it, but didn't really care. I was like, eh, whatever, you can make fun of me. but to watch professionals do it. They're on stage and they look cool while they're doing it. All of a sudden, you still had people, yes, they were chastising them, but the i mean at least the girls were into it and the the industry was funneling all their money towards it. ah their Their advertisements were everywhere. they were You could not watch the news without hearing about at least one boy band doing something. So as ah as a just an artist, you're like, wow, that's cool. People are really doing something.
00:15:41
Speaker
I'm not seeing, because of course I'm only, you know, eight, nine, 10 years old at this time. I'm not seeing the underbelly of all of this. I didn't know stories like Lou Pearlman didn't even tell Backstreet Boys that NSYNC existed. And when they tried confronting him about it, he would lie to them.
00:15:57
Speaker
So basically he was creating their competition and he owned both groups. ah They'll go into this thing where Lou Pearlman, per their contract, was a sixth member of both groups. So he was double dipping and not only as a producer, but as a member of the group, which means he was getting, he had majority share of the group, but then he was also making money on top of his money.
00:16:17
Speaker
um and And they didn't know this because they were just signing really bad deals because these were kids who just wanted success. um This little bit of a trigger warning, but yeah, that goes into a lot of things ah about abuse, um a lot of sexual misconduct. um One of the guys basically alleges that Lou Pearlman probably had one guy of each group that he had that he was grooming.
00:16:40
Speaker
na And Lou Perlman, this isn't a spoiler or anything, but Lou Perlman died ah in the last decade. And so he didn't face a lot. What he was caught for was not for any of that kind of abuse. And that seems to be the story, right? Is that the person that has done the most evil, they're not necessarily caught for that evil. They're usually caught usually for financial. tax evasion or some like minutiae red tape thing, but the actual evil, the, I mean, not saying that's whatever. Sure. Don't do that. But the the vile stuff.
00:17:12
Speaker
Usually they're not. Yeah. Yeah. That gets swept under a rug. So, so frequently. That's such a recurring theme. So, ah and then yeah it gets into the more of the personal lives. um AJ McLean from Backstreet Boys talks about his drug use and um alcohol abuse. um People talk about being stalked. People talk about um one fan. ah they they They do get into the parasocial relationships. And one girl's like, again, trigger warning for harm here. But this one girl,
00:17:41
Speaker
you know carves one of the band members names in her arm and holds it up to him, you know, like I did this for you. And it's, it's so the reason I bring this up is because I think was it was at last year or maybe two years ago, this other documentary called quiet on set was released. And it was about the nineties era, the Dan Schneider era of television where kids were on shows like all that, the Amanda show, things like that.
00:18:06
Speaker
And again, it was a very similar story of young people, talented people, thrust into a world in which they were taken advantage of, led by people who weren't as squeaky clean as they were thought to be. And also parents who willingly left their kids with these people because they trusted them. They were told to trust them. This person's you know going to take my kid's career to the next level.
00:18:30
Speaker
So why am I bringing all this up? For me, as I said, I was reevaluating what I want out of this industry. And I remember being a kid and seeing shows like all that, watching these boy bands, seeing all this stuff and thinking, man, I really want to do that.
00:18:46
Speaker
And now hindsight being 20-20, I'm so glad I didn't because I don't know that I would have been able to handle that pressure at that time.
00:18:58
Speaker
And even today, it's like how much is, because I've been in these situations where um it could be about the art, but it's not about the art sometimes, it's about um it's about the money. And if my approach is always coming from this artistic place, ah I don't know how much I want to settle for a bad actor. And by bad actor, I mean a person who is not a good person, but they're the one in charge. So you just kind of have to appease them to get through the day.
00:19:23
Speaker
I don't know that I have that me right now. I want to do this because I love this, not because I necessarily want to be famous. I want money so I can live a good life, so I can you know get a house, you know start a family, all that stuff.
00:19:37
Speaker
But I don't know if I can deal with, well, we got to look the other way. you know There's so many people in the in this boy band documentary that are aware of Lou Pearlman's behavior, but the best they can do is just warn other people about it. They can't do anything about
Safeguarding Young Performers
00:19:50
Speaker
it. And that to me is like, oof, I don't know if I can handle that.
00:19:53
Speaker
To know that someone might be taking advantage of someone, but because of the fear of, i don't know, losing a job or whatever, they just don't say it. i it's It's really, that's kind of where I'm with that right now.
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah. This is something so near and dear to my heart because i the way I've a lot of this work that I've done outside of performing and creating is I've worked as a, a mentor and a coach and a teacher, ah predominantly with like with teen actors over the years. Um, and I love working with young actors, man, as a, you know, I fell in love with creativity and performing when I was around 13 or 14, it was kind of the formative years of, I'm so, and I'm so grateful by the way, to the teachers and mentors who,
00:20:44
Speaker
took me aside and said, you should actually really do this and actually showed me the potential of a, I never even thought it was possible. I never thought that I could even do these things. And it was someone pulling me aside saying, Hey, you actually really, if you apply yourself and you, and and you, here's a, here's a genuine path you might could follow.
00:21:04
Speaker
I'm so grateful for that. And I always feel like I get a chance now to put that back into ah young artists who are going, I have this spark. I have this sense of creativity. What should I do to be able to give someone guidance? That's not just the promise of success, but genuine, meaningful.
00:21:23
Speaker
Here's how to keep a sound mind. Here's how to protect yourself. Here's how to be a great artist, whatever. I think that's really meaningful, but yeah, because of that work, I have been close to and witness to so much of the, ah the darker side of this industry. And I'm not even privy necessarily to like genuine horrific abuse, which I know happens and is a rampant problem in this industry.
00:21:50
Speaker
That, that is a thing I'm so grateful. I've never, I've never known anybody personally that has like been a perpetrator of that, but I have been witness to the sort of,
00:22:04
Speaker
parasitic behavior of industry professionals latching on to young talent as their ticket to success and fortune. Um, I've witnessed it through people who work as representation agents and managers. I've seen parents be that to their own children.
00:22:24
Speaker
Um, I've seen, you know, publicists or, even, even, um, uh, uh, fans, you know, latching on to, to young people in a wildly, ah parasocially inappropriate way. Cause they go, this person, i can, they can get me access to what i hope to achieve. you know, I think about, there was this, I don't remember the interview, but Demi Lovato, this is probably from a decade ago, but I remember when she was sharing ah something ah kind of ah in the process of, uh,
00:22:57
Speaker
her journey with sobriety and and getting healthy was saying one of the most dangerous things about being a young performer that is a lot of eyeballs on you and success is that you need people when you're young, you need people in your life to be guardrails and to help you say no. And when she was like, I would, people would call me up and be like, come to my club.
00:23:18
Speaker
We'll get you whatever you want, whatever drugs you want. We got you like, yeah, ah And when somebody should be there to say don't, here's why this could be harmful, the opposite is happening to these young impressionable minds. So have always- When I first moved LA, oh sorry, I was just gonna when I first moved to LA, that was one of the first things I noticed. Not so much that I'm watching rampant drug use around me, but I realized that LA can be full of a lot of yes men. Depending on who you are, depending who you surround yourself with, you can be stuck with a lot of people who just validate you at every turn. And honestly, I see a lot of parallels with that and why the rise of AI chatbots. That's a whole other tangent, but I just want to say this is why. Yeah, the sycophant like, yes, you're amazing. Absolutely. You're so right.
00:24:09
Speaker
And without anyone to tell you no or to say, hey, this is dangerous. There are limits to this. Any any kind of guardrails, like you said, that is what breeds that behavior. And that's why you know yo anyone from the outside will say people from LA are weird.
00:24:21
Speaker
I don't think they're all weird. I think they just don't know what it means to have boundaries for themselves. And and it's it's that sycophantic relationships. Those are the things that that cause that.
00:24:35
Speaker
i Yeah. And why it's it's such a it's such a passion of mine to to as a ti teacher and a mentor, like literally this film that I'm trying to make is about four teens. And so I'm constantly working with young artists. And you know my wife and I both, she teaches voice and often works with young artists. So it's been a real passion of ours to work.
00:24:58
Speaker
try to the best of our ability to be a voice of genuine education and guidance, but to not just say the thing that people want to hear and to, and to provide genuine, um, e expectations on things, you know, cause I've seen this happen. I've seen like parents come to me and be like, do you, do you think like, do you think they have a shot? And do you think like,
00:25:22
Speaker
And I'll always say like, maybe, you know, maybe yes, but here's what they need to work on, whatever. I've seen people do the opposite and just say, oh, your kid's going to be a star, you know, and get and speak.
00:25:36
Speaker
And it was just so crazy about this industry. Most people will never find the kind of success that we're talking about. But the promise is always there. So, it and and you know, if you've worked in this industry long enough, you know a few people who genuinely are objectively so successful. So it feels like it's always around the corner.
00:25:58
Speaker
And it makes people really vulnerable. And the most vulnerable are young performers who are full of hope, who are full of aspiration, but who don't have the life experience to to understand what promises are just pie in the sky.
00:26:16
Speaker
and i man, I remember, I'll give you a very specific example, but this was probably seven or eight years ago. I was at an industry event with a bunch of and bunch of agents and managers. And there was a very specific manager there who I won't mention, though I should, I won't, who was speaking of their clients.
00:26:36
Speaker
theirre clients He had several clients that had, um when I say a client, these are, repped predominantly young performers, actors, and singers. A lot of these people and their families had sacrificed everything to move from small towns, Idaho, you know, the Midwest, whatever, Louisiana. They they sacrificed everything to move to Los Angeles to sort of give their kid a chance to be ah to do this thing.
00:27:03
Speaker
Mm hmm. And I remember he was talking about it and he was like, these, these people, I just, oh, I'm so sick of like, they're so yeah basically like redneck, like dumb, ignorant, and they're stupid.
00:27:18
Speaker
He was speaking. And I, and I remember looking at him thinking, I knew I worked with the the students he was talking about. I i i coached those kids.
00:27:30
Speaker
I would coach them for auditions. I would talk to the parents. And I would talk to them. and there was so much hope and there was so much expectation of the promises that that that they had been told.
00:27:41
Speaker
But to hear what they really felt, these are just – People that I, yeah, I told them whatever they haven't, they haven't made me money yet and I'm probably going to cut them and I'm probably going to send them back to where they came from. and And it, it kind of just was a revelation of not, and by the way, I don't, I want to be clear. Not all agents or managers are like that.
00:28:01
Speaker
Like I'm, I'm very grateful. Like my specific manager, one of the reasons I love them is they, they work with a lot of, they have a lot of young actors and I tend to work in a lot of sitcom and a lot of comedy stuff, which is why I love them. And they are so adamant about,
00:28:16
Speaker
keeping parents in the loop, keeping expectations realistic. I love them. I love them because they have a real care for their, their vulnerable, vulnerable clients, most vulnerable clients. But anyway, it just sounds like this documentary is tapping into a thing that I am, i think about so often I'm so passionate about and get so angry about, which is the exploitation of young performers and artists by people who know better, who are literally like out to use them and, and bleed them dry um for financial purposes or other, even sometimes more heinous purposes. It's just, it is such a cancer in this industry. It is such a,
00:29:00
Speaker
And so my point is the more it can be in the light, the more these things can be discussed, the more we can out the predators. Hopefully it normalizes talking about these things so that before someone enters into a contract or thing that, that, that those warnings of, wait a minute, we should double check. This are being discussed more openly. That is a, such a net positive, uh, For our world. Yeah, really hope so. And rampant. It's rampant.
00:29:27
Speaker
It's rampant. I mean, look at all the just, all the all this stuff from the Nickelodeon days. All the, it is just, it is so rampant. It's just, it's kind of shocking. Yeah. um And one thing I will say, ah the little bit that I know, and actually there's a friend I have, we we should have on the podcast that can talk more about this. The music industry, it's very volatile. It's also not unionized. So they're still going through a lot of issues like this because there is no governing body to say, hey, This is how much you can work an artist. This is how much you should be paying. that you know There's so much that is unregulated in that industry that i don't I have to champion anyone that even tries to get involved because I don't know how you survive that right now. It is the Wild West trying to make it in the music industry.
00:30:12
Speaker
um So, yeah, and that is a new thing with with young actors. It has only been in the last like decade that there have been laws and protections passed. There's this thing called the Krikorian Act, which is enacted so that young performers are protected. So, for example, because I do sometimes work with minors as a coach and teacher, I have to carry an FBI certified background check. I have to get fit I have to get fingerprinted. I have to get checked.
00:30:37
Speaker
Anybody who works with young performers has to do that. It's a whole process and I and i welcome it because it it's vitally important that you that you do everything in your power to try to make sure. that That still doesn't protect everything, but at least there are some systems in place now to try to to try to provide some protection so that parents and and you know people bringing them into these scenarios can at least check, hey, do you have this? Hey, have you been verified? Whatever.
00:31:07
Speaker
But as you said, of the music industry, I don't know of any protections like that. I don't know of any guardrails. And so it's just a wild west of, and it's so easy to promise. There's so many people in the industry who are so good at promising the world.
00:31:21
Speaker
And to somebody who doesn't know that world, to somebody on the outside looking in, who's like, oh my God, you mean like they could make, they could have financial freedom. They could, they could use their talent to like change their financial future and have all the their bills.
00:31:34
Speaker
That is such a, That's such a ticing promise. That's why it's so dangerous. That's why it's so important to have the guardrails because you were, you were talking about life altering resources and and opportunities.
00:31:54
Speaker
that only a few people actually get, but everyone is trying to promise that to everyone. But what's crazy with the Lou Pearlman thing, and this kind of goes back to even almost like the Me Too with the Harvey Weinsteins of it all, is that those people were not, here's what makes it so insidious. Those people were not liars in that they weren't, they were just scamming people and there was no opportunities. Those people actually did have the ability to to bring their talent to the forefront and and and promise them and give them wild success and opportunities, but at the cost of –
00:32:32
Speaker
what they got out of it, which was something quite heinous. And so that's even more insidious because it's not just it's it's not just a scam, you know? is a scam, but it's not. i don't know. that Does that make sense? No, it it does. Basically, it's like when you're thinking that you could be making, again, the promise of making a lot of money, but then you find out, oh, I could have been making way more money. You you siphoned that from me.
00:32:52
Speaker
ah Like I said, the whole lying about creating another competition for your group. Why would you do that? I thought you had our best interest in mind. ah all there's like there's Again, there's two episodes and there's a lot that they get into. So I highly recommend people checking that out. It's on HBO Max here in the States. I'm not sure where it might be overseas. But yeah, it definitely... And I just like that perspective of here's these things that you enjoyed. There is another side to it. And and you know whether that affects your enjoyment of this thing, that's that's up to the person. But I really... It it put a lot of in perspective for me about what I have been able to do that To handle
Positive Industry Experiences
00:33:30
Speaker
that. To handle all of that. And yeah I'm not sure that I would have.
00:33:33
Speaker
I think the same thing a lot. Sometimes I look at young the young actors I've worked with and they're so successful, so young. And I can't help but have a, it's not jealousy, but I'm like, oh man, I wish I wish i at 20 had these ah auditions or whatever.
00:33:49
Speaker
But then sometimes i yeah I think about what they're subjected to, just in even just in terms of online fandoms and, and, and that aspect of public being in the public eye, not to mention, yeah. Can you imagine being 20 and you go, do I have any real friends? Is anybody like me? Dating is probably super weird yep because you're like, do you like me?
00:34:15
Speaker
Making a friend is weird when you have so much on you and you can do so much for others. Can you trust that? I, in my head, I'm like, I, Oh, I could deal with it, but I don't know if I could. And I do feel in some ways that I have been spared,
00:34:35
Speaker
I've been able to, you and I have both, I think, been able to find our way to be able to find work and do things, but we haven't we haven't had to sort of question some of those things. um Which maybe money can't can't buy it can't buy I will say this ah to give a happier ending to this. um You and i both have done a multicam sitcom that had kids in the show. yeah um I was on Danger Force a couple of years ago. I have to say from beginning to end, that was such a wonderful process. i felt like they took so much care of those kids. um At no point did anything feel gross or like I had so much fun on that set.
00:35:16
Speaker
um and And it speaks to a testament to production, casting, um the directors, you know, everyone was just like they they're in there because they know like we're here to do a really fun show. And so from table read to the final film day, It was just so great. So like i can't I can't say enough great things about that process. I think we have come a long way to make sure that we are safeguarding these kids. So I don't want to ah create this aura that like, oh, man, it's really terrible. I think we just have to have the necessary people in power to make sure that we're not abusing these kids. We're not taking advantage of them and their families like that.
00:35:52
Speaker
And the more the more things like this come out, the more that we are able to speak freely and openly about about and out predators and out bad actors ah in in that space, the more we can normalize making sure that those are addressed up front.
00:36:10
Speaker
I think when you look back at these documentaries, a lot of times it's like, well, we can't question this person. They're so successful. We can't, you know, we don't want to rock the boat. i think I'm not saying it's perfect, but yes, I do feel like we're at a so a place now where we can be like, hold up.
00:36:27
Speaker
Is this legit? let's let's do our let's let's Let's do some research on this. And that's that knowledge is is extremely important. Same thing, though. I know Mary Kate worked on um the Fairly Oddparents live action. She had, i from what I've talked to her, she had such a good time doing that. The cast was wonderful. I've gotten to do several. I did Stuck in the Middle with Jenna Ortega back when she was like 13 the time.
00:36:51
Speaker
was such a fun set. was so collaborative. I genuinely, my I would be so thrilled if like the next 10 years of my career were playing like the weird dad on a im like a Disney sitcom. Like yes I love that world. yeah and i And I'm actually really passionate. I think young young artists who really want to do this thing, i think I really don't like when parents force their kids to do it. That's bad. But young artists who really are passionate are so cool to work with because they have so much imagination and creativity and there's not this jaded cynicism to them. So i am, I love giving young performers the space.
00:37:35
Speaker
The only reason I'm doing what I do now is because I had teachers and mentors who gave us when we were 15, the space to go, Go write your own plays, go direct your own stuff. We'll, we'll facilitate, we'll support. So I think it, arts education and
Pitching Creative Projects
00:37:50
Speaker
access to the arts for young adults is so important, but you gotta have the, you know, you gotta have some, you gotta protect people. You gotta protect people who are at risk, you know? Absolutely. um All right. Well, that's all i want to say about that. Kurt, what are you into this week?
00:38:06
Speaker
So I haven't been watching as much or listening to as many things because I've been traveling, but I'm interested to get your thoughts on this. The big thing that I have been into in terms of what's occupying my creative brain is I've been in the process of trying to, i suppose, pitch a movie is the the simplest way to say it, but I have a feature film that I have been working on developing with two of my close collaborators, my friend, Mike, my friend, Eric, for the last two years. And I've recently started to take it out to other people.
00:38:37
Speaker
I want to be clear. I'm not like going into Netflix or something. I know sometimes people say, ah i' I'm pitching a movie and it can sound very, i don't know. I'm always like, wow. Okay. So, so cool. this This is more just, I'm starting to have conversations with potential collaborators to say, Hey, we got a cool team. Would you want to maybe join our team?
00:38:57
Speaker
And I've been in this process of trying to Get better at at learning to paint a picture of a story that doesn't exist yet.
00:39:08
Speaker
I would be directing this project, and I know you've directed, you choreograph, and so much of directing, choreographing, staging is having a vision of what it might be before it is. And then obviously, once you bring other artists into the process, it it morphs and it can change. But that's been like, I've been really trying to I guess work on that skill of, of how to speak about and how to paint a picture of a thing that I want to exist.
00:39:39
Speaker
Um, I got a chance to do it last week and I felt like it was really rushed and I, and I wasn't, I was, so i felt like I didn't give it, I didn't speak about it the way that I wanted to. And then I got a chance to do it again two days ago where I really got to communicate the sort of feeling, the sort of essence of this thing. And there's a real art to that. And I'm just, i was like a conversation I thought might be worth having is how, how, what are the, what are the things to keep in mind when you're trying to get, because I think if you're an artist, if you're wanting to get your friends involved in doing a play together, or if you're wanting to,
00:40:16
Speaker
give dancers their choreographer, learning how to speak that into existence is such an art form. Do you have any thoughts on like do's don'ts, like ways to think about that process? This is so interesting. So first I'll say that, you know I have not pitched a movie so that, so i I can't speak from that perspective. However, I've, I've read a bunch of articles and listen to interviews about how people have done that, but also what it's like to demonstrate what a theatrical piece, what a dance piece looks like and everything, you know, depending on the medium, they just change. But, ah but one of my favorite things actually that I'll, I'll point out first, have you ever seen the pitch deck for stranger things?
00:40:58
Speaker
Yes, ages ago. Ages ago. It was called Montauk, right? Montauk, right. And and it was like this it looked like a booklet. like They had a very specific design. But in doing so, immediately you're immersed into the world. And I think that's a key for any medium, whether ah you know whether it's physical, whether it's visual. um i think you have to...
00:41:19
Speaker
immediately approach it from what is the tone that I want you to have the second you look at it. And um so like if I'm pitching choreography, I the way I come from choreography, it's always from an internal place, like there's some sort of emotional feeling connection to it.
00:41:35
Speaker
So, for instance, um the other day, I was on set for a music video that I choreographed. And the director, of course, I'm matching his vision for it, but he gave me his pitch deck. And he did a lot of references, and he showed me you know different types of... I'm not going to get into too many specifics, but basically the tone of what he wanted. So immediately, i what I give back to him is, okay, so for movement-wise, I'm thinking, if we're using this light, I want to slow like creep into this. and like and Because i I want you to...
00:42:04
Speaker
The easiest thing for people people to connect to is emotion. Right? We all that's that's just something that we all have. And so once you have an emotional connection, you have a hook and then we can start, you know, adding some layers, some tricks, you know, give us some story beats. But you've got to be something that right off the bat emotionally, I know why I'm involved in your story.
00:42:25
Speaker
And then from there, it's just kind of telling you can kind of manipulate where you want them to go, right? So if you're pitching this movie, I feel like, you know, what do you want them to feel when they're and like, if you were to like, you know, they always talk about the elevator pitch. If you only had two sentences, what do you want them to feel at the end of your pitch?
00:42:47
Speaker
I, that was the biggest takeaway is realizing I, you know, there's a script to be read and I think the script is great. that's a pretty big ask. Like you sit down for the next two hours and read, it's like it's a big ask.
00:43:01
Speaker
And it's a lot for someone to just take the time out of their day for two hours and to sit with the script and then have to have opinions about it. And so we decided in this process to make a visual, we did it, we did a pitch deck.
00:43:14
Speaker
and then sort of a collage of imagery. And then we made a sizzle where I pulled footage from probably 20 different movies. I pulled like, it took me like a month to pull this footage. And i we put it all together and then we compiled it into a two and a half minute. I then found two or three different songs that I really liked. And I actually worked on mixing them together and blending the sounds together. And we kind of created this whole, like you said, that the feeling of it,
00:43:43
Speaker
And we were pretty sure that that would be effective, but I was not prepared for how effective it was where I had i had pitched it a few times to people and they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. That's, oh, so it's like a scary, yeah, yeah.
00:43:55
Speaker
When I finally got the chance to open my laptop and show this two and a half piece of footage, two and a half minute piece of footage, Every time I've done that, people go, oh, oh yeah, okay, so, oh And it was crazy to me how that two and a half minute piece of footage, which contains not a single frame from our actual movie, because we haven't made it, that was the thing that got people going.
00:44:21
Speaker
And and we i had a conversation on Monday with these the two people I was talking to. we had like a two-hour conversation about faith and and belief and our...
00:44:32
Speaker
our upbringing that all were tangentially about what the movie's about, but all inspired by the feeling of that. And it just, it reminded me as a director or facilitator, your job is not to like tell people what to do. It's to just get everyone kind of vibrating on the same wavelength. Like I want to make sure That my actors and the camera and the costume and all those things feel like they are in that we're all building the same world together. And if any one of those pieces feels like it's out of a different thing, that is what creates dissonance for the audience where maybe they won't even understand why it's not working. But that is probably like.
00:45:15
Speaker
oh, that acting choice does not feel like it belongs in this movie. Or, well, that piece of choreography feels out of place. I love this about you as a director and a choreographer, James, is you were you were so interested in less of perfect dancers, thank God, because you don't you don't have any. Except for Lauren.
00:45:37
Speaker
Thank God you're not looking for that because it's not to be found amongst this friend group. Oh my God. But you are so interested in, like, even when you were choreographing the remount of Guy, so much of the movement was rooted in the idea of this thing, this infection taking over. And and I found even just learning the choreography, it informed so much of my understanding of the characters by being like, oh, the this moment This movement is this
Intention in Choreography
00:46:07
Speaker
feeling. Anyway, I just i think you're really excellent at that.
00:46:10
Speaker
I've worked with choreographers who it's just like, here's an impressive fancy dance move that I go, I don't understand. i can try to learn it, but it yeah it's like impressive for the sake of being impressive, which is which is cool in its own right, but not the objective of creating a cohesive story.
00:46:28
Speaker
Yeah. and And I feel that way about not just dancing, but like you can do as many fun camera tricks and you can do as many cool, like you can scream as an actor because you're just you're really intense in this emotion. But if it's not tied to anything, like I said, emotionally, then we're just doing it because we can do it. um And so like so intention is such a big part. And I think that's why your two and a half minute video works, right? We can say the words in our head as many times as we want. But something that I've learned about this industry is that in a in an industry built on creativity, there are people that don't have imagination. And sometimes you need to just put right in front of them and say, hey, this is what this is. And all a sudden it clicks. It's for the same reason that if you ever do a commercial audition, sometimes they'll say, or really any audition, but sometimes they'll tell you, you have to dress like the doctor, dress like you work at your bag and groceries because they just need that visual.
00:47:27
Speaker
And it so for them to say, oh yeah, he looks like that. Great. yeah Cast him. Whereas if you just wore a t-shirt, they might not even think of you in that same world. Yeah, it's like the magic of being an effective artist is, oh there's a great quote by, I think it's Penn and Teller maybe, the the magicians.
00:47:47
Speaker
But they were talking about what makes a magic trick usually impressive. is not some sleight of hand. It's the idea that the magicians were willing to go so much farther in the scope of prep to make the the the trick that the audience can't even comprehend that they would go that far.
00:48:09
Speaker
Like, you know, so somebody goes, how did you, how did you know that this person in the audience had this sister who did this thing?
00:48:20
Speaker
Some, it must be a trick. And it's like, no, they spent six months researching every possible ticket holder. And like, actually the effort and the intention that went into the magic trick is so much more intense and massive than you, the audience can even perceive.
00:48:38
Speaker
but it makes for the moment to be so how they do it. And I and i think that that applies to art as well, that When I'm watching something, I will never appreciate the thought that, you know, the characters on stage do this one flourish and it will affect me, but I will not appreciate the hours that you, James, were pacing in your apartment, you know, apartment but being like, and this is, a and like struggling over it and teaching it and thinking it's going to happen in a flash, but it is the encapsulation of months of work. Yeah.
00:49:14
Speaker
So I love and that. and that's And if you can learn to and to actually savor that and enjoy that, it actually makes creating really fun because then you go the process is the, that is the fun part.
00:49:28
Speaker
Even if the audience never even appreciates it fully or won't know, that's the magic trick. They don't i don't get to know. Yeah. I have said this so many times. No one will ever care about the choreography as much as I will.
00:49:40
Speaker
yeah But the fun part for me is that process of making it and finding it. And so that way, by the time you as an audience member view it on stage, it goes by that fast, but because it's in their bodies now. They're doing it because it's evocative of the moment. And and I was very intentionable intentional on getting it to that point.
00:50:00
Speaker
So yeah, I, I, but again, they'll never care. They'll never know. It'll, it'll never know. which and that's kind of It's, it's, it's sort of like, yeah, it's like, so I like the magic trick analogy. Cause you go, it's actually, i don't want
Trust in the Creative Process
00:50:12
Speaker
you to know. I just want you to be, I just want it to work for you in the moment. Yeah. Um, I think it's so, it's so interesting. So about this, so the next time that you are going to pitch this or talk to someone, what, what angle do you think you're going to go with to try to articulate your vision more or differently? Yeah. What are, what are you going to, do you want to try? I, the big, the biggest takeaway was that, like you said, the, the feeling of what do I want this to feel like, what do I want the audience to experience? And if I can tap into that as a visceral emotional experience, I'm
00:50:50
Speaker
the plot is genuinely secondary. And I've had this, I've had this argument with people before where I've i've always said plot is secondary. and And people push back at me and say, no, no, no, that's not true. a bad plot can ruin a movie or a script or whatever. And i go, yeah, of course it can.
00:51:06
Speaker
But that is not what makes me moved by a work. What makes me moved by a work is the, i want to live in, it's like, why do people, why are people stoked to go see Guy in London? Not because they're like, I want to experience the plot where Paul begins They go, I want to like be in this goofy, fun, creepy creepy, scary world. I love, I just want to be there. I want to like, it's the feeling of experiencing a thing that makes people fall in love with that. So I love horror movies. I love the feeling of being taken to the edge of something that feels dangerous. I know that I'm okay, but I'm allowed to go there. So I think that that's my biggest lesson from the last two meetings is leading with that versus sort of the intellectual,
00:51:52
Speaker
reasonable, like here's what it's about. And here's, and here's the themes. Those are interesting, but those are secondary to what is the feeling? What is the, what do i want the audience to leave? I'm still trying to refine that and figure out, but I, the the biggest thing I found with this is ah i was like, something I said and and i out loud was like,
00:52:17
Speaker
you ever like walk into like an old church and just feel the weight of the the, the, the, like the weight of this space that has been privy to so much, um, hopes and dreams and pain and, and you can just feel like the voices in the walls that have been,
00:52:38
Speaker
silenced or have shouted out or have like it, there's like this, such a range of them. And I, as I was describing that the people were like, Oh my God. Yeah. Like that was like, that was my childhood. And I was like, yeah, that's the feeling. And so I think that's the way to maybe lead. Yeah, no, absolutely. Because yeah like i I know you and I know your imagination is is wild and fun. So it's like, yeah, just tapping into that. What is that scene that I want you to feel like you're in? And then ah and then you've you've already got them through the door. And I feel like who's going to say no to that?
00:53:10
Speaker
Also too, I think it takes trusting collaborators where like maybe as an, maybe as an artist, maybe I'm on stage and you're staging something and maybe I go, i don't quite know what this is, but trusting that you do and that, in and that sometimes you as a director might have to be like, I just need you to stand here and trust this moment's going to work. And your job is to kind of go, okay.
00:53:35
Speaker
And it's only later do you step back and go, Oh, cool. Yeah. I see what you were doing there.
Upcoming Projects and Reflections
00:53:42
Speaker
That is the hardest thing. Cause I've been on both sides of that where like as a director, I've had to tell an actor that I was like, just trust me, just be there. Like you don't need to do anything right now. And then as the actor, I felt like, wait, I, am I bad? Like I'm not, I'm not emoting. What am i I'm not moving. Oh yeah. I've, I've been on both sides. of that Has that helped you as a performer?
00:54:01
Speaker
seeing the world from the other side. a thousand percent. Understanding it's not about you always. It's like, this is a tapestry that's being made. Absolutely. I'm especially as a director choreographer, I'm a big picture guy. So that way, when I want to focus in on something, ah it's it's easier for me to figure out like, okay, that's what this moment needs right now, just because it doesn't match what is happening on the larger scale. I, you and Lauren both. I love, i I think it's so cool that you guys both come from dance because it feels like you both work in tableau and visual composition so beautifully. And that's such a cool place to work from as somebody who has frequently worked more from like scene study character moments. That's great.
00:54:48
Speaker
But the tableau of it, the visual composition of it, I don't know. I just both, both of you guys, both of my experience on VHS and Lauren with, with Guy and you collaborating with her on that.
00:54:59
Speaker
I really, I think, I think that translates in, in the work and like in the feeling in some of the criticism that people were lobbying at me for not using enough wide shots in the edits, even though that wasn't my choice. The reason why is because I think people are so drawn to the stage picture that you're creating, but they want to, they want to see it. They want to see that stage picture. yeah And I love, i listen I love the way that it's it's helped me think more about that and let go sometimes of just thinking about the words, the words, the words, the words.
00:55:32
Speaker
Just a quick anecdote about that. um One thing I learned about doing Star Kid shows in my almost 20 years, oh my God, of doing that, is that um I had to hone in my choreography because they were cutting certain things in their pro shots before they kind of learned any better. And so I specifically staged things so that you couldn't cut around my choreography. ah So that's a little inside baseball.
00:55:55
Speaker
Well, this is awesome. Kurt, I know we got to head out. So um anything you want to plug real quick? Uh, well, start out yeah, we got a new show that's coming up, which is going to really fun. We're doing a new show called tomb quest. Um, the Kickstarter launches this Saturday.
00:56:12
Speaker
um I think it's a really special show. I, I, I, it's very small. It's very intimate. Um, I, the character is that I get to play as he's, it's a great character music by Clark. We, you know, Clark did the music for VHS and spies and,
00:56:28
Speaker
a bunch of other stuff but he's such a gifted gifted gifted songwriter and i think it's gonna be a great show so yeah we launch on saturday you should come come check it out tomb quest
Engaging with the Audience
00:56:39
Speaker
doom quest um and on my end uh yeah i'll be in london for uh musicals so uh you guys are playing a sold out run in london that's crazy i tell people that i've been telling people they're like really?
00:56:53
Speaker
like That's an amazing, that's that's an incredible thing you're about to go do. Holy crap. Really excited. So I will be there. I'll be traversing the streets, gallivanting when I'm not in rehearsal. So come hi. Are going see any shows? I don't know that I will have, maybe ah because, well, that's too much information for the public. you're pretty busy. Yeah. But um but yeah, so we'll see. I'll try to see some stuff while I'm out there.
00:57:15
Speaker
Awesome. Yeah. So as always, you can reach us at so what are you into pod at gmail.com. We'll respond to your emails and then on the socials at so what are you into pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube.
00:57:29
Speaker
Kurt, as always, so much fun. Thank buddy. And if I don't spew, have a great time in London, like you're leaving soon. Right, exactly. um All right. Everyone listening. um Stay curious.