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We Have Reached the End of Our Show, Pokémon, and Power Trip with Author Ali Gordon
40 Plays1 month ago
Talking out loud about the stuff that won’t leave us alone.
Ali Gordon joins us to talk about writing her novel We Have Reached the End of Our Show, and what it means to protect an idea while it’s still forming. We get into the creative instinct to share too early, how outside feedback can shape or derail a project, and why sometimes the best thing you can do is keep something to yourself until it’s ready.
This week’s Intos:
Ali brings:
• The new Pokémon game Poképia
Ali talks about falling deep into a game that blends Pokémon, Animal Crossing, and environmental storytelling, and why it resonated so strongly. We get into the idea of building a better world, what it says about how we treat our own, and why something playful can still carry real weight.
James brings:
• Taskmaster
James talks about revisiting Taskmaster and why it’s such a perfect showcase for comedians willing to look stupid, take risks, and actually play. We get into the difference between performers protecting their image versus embracing the chaos, and why that shift changes how we experience comedy.
Curt brings:
• The Drama (starring Robert Pattinson and Zendaya)
Curt talks about seeing The Drama and why it created such a visceral, uncomfortable, and electric theater experience. We get into stories that push emotional limits, how far honesty can go in relationships, and why sitting in discomfort can be one of the most powerful parts of watching something with an audience.
Along the way, the conversation keeps circling back to a bigger idea: how we engage with art. Whether it’s protecting a creative idea, escaping into a game, performing without self-consciousness, or sitting through something uncomfortable, we talk about what it actually means to be present with the things we’re into.
We talk about:
• Protecting ideas before they’re fully formed
• Why sharing too early can kill momentum
• Escapism vs building something meaningful
• Performers who embrace chaos vs protect their image
• Why discomfort can be a powerful part of storytelling
So… what are you into right now?
Email us:
sowhatareyouintopod@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to So What Are You Into? to- do
00:00:07
Speaker
Our guest today, incredible Allie Gordon. Welcome, Allie. And then in so abruptly, I need to make it fade out. Also, it's like kind of a jam. I don't know what you want. Like, are we supposed to sort of jam? can jam. I don't know. with's it It's a freestyle opening, you know. It kind of felt...
00:00:29
Speaker
Go ahead, go ahead. No, I was going to say something not important, but maybe it is important. To me, it
James' Spanish Language Journey
00:00:34
Speaker
sort of sounds like the opening few bars of ah like a less popular Shakira song. Like a Shakira song like that didn't have crossover appeal in America, but like i got a lot of play in like Latin America. and That's so specific.
00:00:47
Speaker
I like it. um Like a Mario, like a Mario level, like Mario goes to a rave. Mario goes to like an underground club. i love that. Wait, can I say what the inspiration was though? Cause I made it. James made this. Okay, James. Okay, Shakira. And so when I sell this to Shakira, what I'll tell her is that No, what i I was like, so Kurt wanted something lo-fi a little bit. And then i I was like, okay, some guitar would be good. And then I just want something that you could feel like you would, if you asked Spotify or Apple Music to like, hey, play some background music. But a level above Muzak, you know? ah yeah just I just want a notch above that. And so then that's what I made.
00:01:27
Speaker
i really like it. Thank you. There are some like, this year i have been... My goal has been to relearn Spanish. This is like unrelated, but I guess related. where yeah Did you feel fluent in the past? Yes. What was your competency level? When I was a kid, my mom was fluent in Spanish because she lived in Uruguay for a while. And um we spoke in Spanish a lot when I was a kid. And then I was in like high school and taking it very seriously. And I took like the AP Spanish exam, I got like a five, know mean? Like I was like very serious about it. But James, as you know, if you get a certain level on your AP exam, you place out of language. And so I didn't have to take language in college. And I was like feeling very high and mighty about that. And then was like, yeah, I mean, like I speak this language
00:02:19
Speaker
and got very comfortable with that and very sort of just like cocky about that. And then it was like about, I'm gonna like four years ago that I was in a situation was just was like unbelievably humbled because I went very confidently over to speak to someone in Spanish because somebody had asked me to be like, I'm so sorry, we're having difficulty communicating this. Like, would you mind telling them to set this up like in this area? I was like, yeah.
00:02:43
Speaker
And literally like, as I was approaching, I was going, do I actually, like, I was like going into the boxes where the words should be and they weren't there and like went over and was like, um, lo siento, porque en este caja no es, no es.
00:03:00
Speaker
and eicaha e um i yeah s must no i um And I was like, oh my God. i like And just like embarrassed.
00:03:13
Speaker
And then like ashamed, not just because the whole situation went so badly, but because I was like, oh, like that's my fault. Like I just have not been checking in on that. And just like lost my facility for it. Over the last couple of years, I've been like really taking it seriously. And then this year I was like, this year I'm getting back to like fluency. So I'm like in classes once a week with a private tutor. And I'm like listening to a lot of Spanish music and watching a lot Spanish TV and trying to like read books that I, books I've read before in Spanish.
00:03:41
Speaker
Incredible. Because like, I'm like, okay, I kind of know how this goes. you know what I mean? Yeah, you're so better way you're such a better human being than me because of the way I went back to Duolingo and just hoping for the best.
00:03:53
Speaker
Well, I spent a year on Duolingo. That was my first thing. Literally like came back from that conversation, went back into the house, downloaded Duolingo. Spent a year on it, realized it didn't really help. It really helped with some, I will say like the thing that it does extremely well is remind you of like situational vocab.
00:04:12
Speaker
So that's good. because like it would like Meaning like out out and about and I'm ordering at a restaurant. Yes, yes. And it'll like it'll like remind you kind of how to say like some animals or like forest or ah like you know you'll get into like a section that's about like ah directions. And so you'll get left, right, drive, ah street, bus stop. Like you'll get like a lot of things like that. So it did sort of like brush some stuff off. but it it was not particularly helpful for like, to at least in my opinion, it was not helpful for like grammatical stuff. And it was never really explaining things. So like Duolingo has like the thing where you like click the things have to put the sentence in the right order.
00:04:52
Speaker
But if you put it in the wrong order, it never says like, hey, if we're using this, in if we're using like low or law as an indirect object as a substitute for like the object, like it, it comes before this thing. And the reason for that is this, it would just go, you're wrong.
00:05:07
Speaker
And I'd be like, well, why am I wrong? And I'd be like, we'll fucking see. So they do they do have that feature where it says explain my answer and which is great, but it's like after the fact. So you basically, they set you up to fail and then you have to click explain my answer in order to to learn what you're just saying. I wonder if it even had that function when I was doing it. I was just like frustrated.
00:05:26
Speaker
They are adding new things like every month or so. I have noticed though, because you know how they'll do the the daily challenges and say, oh, you get this many XP and all this. There is a challenge where you're supposed to explain like 10 answers, which means you have to get them wrong and lose XP or lose your streak in order to explain those answers. I've never quite understood the value of doing that.
00:05:51
Speaker
Right. Fascinating. Yeah. I don't know. So that's that's been my big that's been my big thing. All that to say, I've really been going back to a lot of like Spanish music of the 90s, including Shakira, who has an amazing song that I don't think was popular really in like the United States called Citevas.
00:06:09
Speaker
So shout out to that song. That's certainly been like on the driving playlist, on the gym playlist, on the walking playlist. Yeah.
Allie's Gaming Interests and Pokopia
00:06:18
Speaker
Add it to the queue. Everyone who's listening, on the queue. So this podcast is brought to you by Shakira.
00:06:25
Speaker
Yeah. Shakira. And James, who's writing for Shakira. Yes, I've been ghostwriting for her for the past three months. So good job for me. I'm really proud of you. So Allie, I don't think that was the answer to the question i'm about to ask you. What you're into? So Allie, what are you into?
00:06:41
Speaker
I mean, i i have to answer this. I have to answer this honestly. I have to answer this honestly. yeah You're catching me on on May 6th. Nope. You're catching me on April 6th.
00:06:56
Speaker
yeah um We are time traveling. You're time traveling. I have been playing I've been basically doing nothing but play the game Pocopia the last month since came out. I just heard about this. Oh my God. I was listening to a podcast about this. I'm so excited to hear talk about this. And I have put in 110 hours. Wow. Good for you. What's the platform? It is the Switch 2.
00:07:24
Speaker
Switch 2, okay. is I'm very lucky that I have a Switch 2. It kind of like fell into my lap in a a strange way because I'm i'm not really a gamer, like I would say. like I do like video games, but I am one of those, i think this is very common for people like literally specifically my age, where you probably played like Super Nintendo and maybe like the GameCube. And then if you didn't play games again for like 10 to 15 more years like I didn't when I was in high school in college.
00:07:53
Speaker
Games changed and controls changed so much that a lot of games are too hard for me. um i cannot like maneuver like the two joysticks like one is looking and one is walking. So there's a lot of games that I think look good, but cannot play. Whenever Kim and play, I have somehow been able to overcome that hurdle. Kim is not. And I frequently, when we play dual screen of any game, I look over and the camera, she'll be like up in the clouds and like, what? That's me. That's me. And she's like, the camera's zooming around. I'm like, put this. the camera behind the guy. can't. What are you doing? It's really hard. And then like I tried to play games the playroom where like the controls are both walk and move and like move the camera. But then it's also like if you pull this back, it will pull back the bow. But if you tap it, it will do this and you have to release it. I'm doing it. Like I'm like, yes, I'm lost. So there's very there's very small selection of games I can like actually truly play. Switch games tend to be great in that manner. They're like very intuitive and friendly to just kind pick up and figure out how to be. Like Crimson Desert that just came out is, I haven't played it, but there's like 30, like you press a button and there's like 30 modifiers on every tap to be. And it's like, and a lot of people have said like, it's very overwhelming to even know where to go. see.
00:09:14
Speaker
but but So, Pocopia is yeah the new the social simulation game ah from Nintendo. It's a Pokemon game. I don't know much about it, but I've heard people talking about it. It is so lovely. Can you tell us about it? I want to know what what do you love about it. what do you I'm a lifelong Pokemon fan.
00:09:31
Speaker
So, like, again, i know I went for many years without playing Pokemon. What was your entry point, can I ask? like i was it Was it TV show? Was it oh Manga? Was it the game card game? Okay, Game Boy games.
00:09:42
Speaker
i mean, also, like, you know, Everything was Pokemon when we were younger. And like I think there were some people who like completely avoided it. I just like i loved it. So I did collect cards. I never like played the game. But I ah i played Pokemon Blue.
00:09:57
Speaker
i played both Gold and Silver. i played whatever the next one was on the Game Boy Advance, which I think was like Crystal, which was like very similar to Gold and Silver with like a couple extra Pokemon, but like whatever. um Didn't play the one that was, um I think it was called the DS. I didn't own that system.
00:10:13
Speaker
But then again, when it came back out on Switch, Sword and Shield, Red and Violet, or Scarlet and Violet, whatever, but have played every game since then. Love Pokemon. Love them so much. Love those little freaks. um And Pocopia is like...
00:10:28
Speaker
all of the best parts of Pokemon, ah Animal Crossing, Minecraft, ah and it also is sort of like a communist utopia. Because the very basic, completely spoiler-free premise is...
00:10:52
Speaker
You are a Ditto, like the Pokemon, that little pink guy who can transform anybody. I love Ditto. so cute. love ah So you're a Ditto and you are learning from other Pokemon skills like Rock Smash or Water Gun or whatever to beautify and better the environment around you and like set up habitats for Pokemon to live in and houses and fridges. And so it's like there's like a building aspect and a collecting aspect, but there's also like the things friendship aspect, like you're leveling up your relationships with Pokemon. There's little individual quests in between two where it'll be like, we're all going to build this really big building together. But unlike Animal Crossing, nothing costs money.
00:11:35
Speaker
There is a shop where you can get better items or whatever it is, but there's not a mortgage to pay off on your damn house. There's no Nook. No. There's no evil landlord. There's no evil landlord.
00:11:47
Speaker
Everybody has different skills, and they are sort of enthusiastic about using said skills to better the world. so like If you want to do a building project, you have to go out and collect... like five copper ingots and some sticks and some this and some that. But again, that does not cost you money. You go collect it, you go get your Pokemon together who have these, like I have burn, I have chop, I have this. Okay, so I've got the six people who need, I need to make this building. And they all build it. And at the end of it, they're like, this building rocks.
00:12:13
Speaker
Nobody's like, well, it's going to cost you. If you want me to do what I mean. It rocks. There is also a, and I want to say, I want to like, have you guys ever done like a spoiler, like beep beep on this podcast before, just in case. You definitely have. Yeah. We've done a few spoiler things. So spoiler here. If, if you're thinking about playing Pocopia, come back and ah come back in a few minutes. If you want to be spoiler free. Okay. um The underlying and I think unbelievably surprising facet of Pocopia is that you discover through the plot that the reason that there are no humans on Earth and that the only people you meet are Pokemon is that humans had to leave Earth because of a climate crisis.
00:12:59
Speaker
and like got into rocket ships and had to fly away and ah like just mess up the earth bad. So it's very interesting because yeah it really does have something to say about like,
00:13:14
Speaker
conservation efforts and the environment and like the respect or like, I guess, lack of respect that like humans have for biomes.
00:13:25
Speaker
And like, it's also, i think again, as a lifelong fan of Pokemon who have, I've always found it like very gauche and edgelordy when people are like, Pokemon aren't your friends. They're your slaves that you fight against each other and you don't give and it's like, I've always been like, no, they're not. They're your best friends.
00:13:41
Speaker
This game is very, also very clear about like, they are your best friends. And that like some humans were like, I don't even know if i want to leave Earth, if I have to leave my Pokemon behind. Like there, know I mean It would be like if you found out you had leave your dog when you like were like evacuating, you know what I mean It's like some people are like, I can't, I can't do that. Like i I know it might be wise for me and the good of humanity, but like those, that's my best friend. I can't, I cannot leave that behind. you know what i mean? So the Pokemon missed the humans and the humans missed the Pokemon and it's very sweet and very sad.
00:14:12
Speaker
But this is the
Movie Reactions and Theater Etiquette
00:14:13
Speaker
propaganda I can get behind though. find We need to hold the hold up the mirror to the humans who don't realize what how great they have. and a ah pet that loves you so unconditionally will defend you, but also will build and enrich the environment. And yet we've ruined everything. So you know Here's a game for all those creatures that you said you loved, but now they're the ones that are playing all the making all the rules. And and yeah yeah, this is good. I stand by this. really sweet. Supremacy.
00:14:37
Speaker
Pocopia is gonna make, okay, and also Hoppers. Did either of v see Hoppers yet? I did see Hoppers. Oh, I loved it. i thought it was great. Loved it. physics the the The physical comedy of Hoppers was, I was like, this is a new level for Pixar for me. loved it. Genuine physical, reactive comedy. screen Playing Pocopia and watching Hoppers within like the same week of my life, I was like, oh, this is crazy. And good crazy. Because like when we were kids, it was very like Captain Planet, save the sea turtles, recycle your stuff. And now movies are like, listen, some of you are going to have to blow up a fracking plant at some point.
00:15:12
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, you're nine right now. So yeah no rush on this. Get ready, kids. I don't know, give or take like 10 to 15 years. Some of you might be blowing up pipelines. I don't know. Absolutely.
00:15:23
Speaker
But let just for letting you know, as the 30-year-olds who made this game and our movie, we support you. So go ahead and get in did it on that. You should be learning how to tie your shoes, but also you should be learning how to operate explosives. Those are the two main main things you need. Yes. Said with positivity. like i like I am saying that with like, wow, love that, fun, good job. So yeah, two they both had a strange little Venn diagram crossover of being like humans...
00:15:50
Speaker
humans won't make change unless essentially pushed to the brink. Right. i I've taken that as sort of like a through line of both of those things. Because Hopper's is ah ultimately pretty ah optimistic about humanity's ability to like come around and be like, I made a mistake. Okay, fine. It's a kid's movie. It should be optimistic.
00:16:09
Speaker
um But it did sort of condemn humanity and so in being like, it will basically take the worst disaster of your life for you to come around and go, we fucked up. There's basically nothing shy of catastrophe that would ever make a human go, I'm not respecting the environment. Right. And I would say that hoppers and Pocopia really have that in common, um which I do think is an interesting lesson to sort of be imparting to our youngest generation of just like, yeah, um a lot of people have a lot of vested interests other places and they're not going to make change out of the goodness of their heart.
00:16:44
Speaker
I think that's a valuable lesson that we should be teaching our kids right now. I know, me too. Considering everything else that's going on right now. Me too. i Yeah, I respect it. I really, i i have liked both things and ah respected ultimately the message of both of them, yeah. Yeah.
00:16:59
Speaker
um Kurt, I'm actually going to throw it to you next. ah What are you into this week? What am I into this week? um Guys, last night I saw a movie that made me shout at the screen. made me scream. It made me clench every conceivable part of my body that could be clenched. Oh, my God. I saw the new Robert Pattinson's Endaya movie, The Drama.
00:17:21
Speaker
Ooh, is it good? I loved it. i i literally was like halfway through. i was like, this inject this movie into my veins. It is everything I love about movies. Now, can I recommend this movie to everybody? I cannot. I cannot recommend this movie to everybody.
00:17:38
Speaker
But if you live for stories and immersive experiences that make you so profoundly uncomfortable that you just want to get up from your chair and go, yeah ah, and like a scream in discomfort, which I love. live for that. I live for that moment when you're just like, this is the, I could not imagine a more uncomfortable situation and the, and and I'm going to sit here and have to laugh.
00:18:03
Speaker
Go through the storm. This movie is about a couple who is about to get married and ask the question, how much can you love someone when you find out who maybe they used to be?
00:18:15
Speaker
Okay. if you If you found out that your significant other or loved one or person in your life that you thought, I love this person more than anything. This movie goes, how far can you push that if you know what they used to be or who they used to be or how they used to think?
00:18:30
Speaker
Cool. Yeah, essentially the the question that is posed on a night of drinking is what's the worst thing you've ever done? And somebody proposes and puts forward what the worst thing they almost did was. And it ah kind of makes things unravel. It's it's so good. it is It's A, I mean, it's since A and Robert Pattinson. I can watch them just just sit in silence together and it's in it's enrapturing.
00:18:56
Speaker
um But this movie is, it's about a very delicate, pretty upsetting subject. It is about the fetish... Isation of American obsession with violence, with guns, with um a whole lot of that stuff. But it is also really funny.
00:19:15
Speaker
And I kept laughing and being like, is that okay? Is it okay? Can I laugh at this? Is this fun? Is this okay to laugh? It does stuff with, it it walks that line between dark comedy and and just utter dire, like horrific real life themes that I kind of I just admired it so much. I was going say, like, do you call it, would you have called it like a dark comedy or like, does it have too much drama? should It is a dark comedy. It is a comedy. I kept being like, I cannot believe they're making this subject funny, but but they are. And not in a way that feel to to for me feels like it is mocking or belittling or um um trying to make light of something, but it is examining
00:20:00
Speaker
How far are you willing to take your moral convictions, the moralizing of things? How truthful can you be in your relationships? Can you say what you felt or or or but you know almost did and then be safe? like It's so good. And there was, it was such a, I watched it last night at 11 PM and it was pretty packed theater.
00:20:22
Speaker
And it was a great experience because you could just, you could just hear in the audience. It it kind of reminded me of seeing get out. Yeah. shout Where somebody would say something. Yeah.
00:20:33
Speaker
No, sure. Yeah. Or like ah a revelation. And there is a genuine there's gasps. There's it was such it was so delicious. That's the word that comes to mind. Yeah. A fun theater experience, man. Like, yeah, you can't beat But also but also so deeply moving and like beautiful and human and And Zendaya's so good. And Robert Pattinson is so good. it just It's unlike anything I've ever seen. And I went into it knowing absolutely nothing.
00:21:04
Speaker
And it just kind of, it's just, delighted is a strange word. If you see the movie, you'll be like, it's a strange thing to say about it. But um boy cannot recommend seeing this enough with a live audience. I think it's really wild.
00:21:18
Speaker
I have a question for both of you because this brings up something that I think I, this is what I miss about seeing movies with an audience is that ah if people aren't completely connected to the material or what they're watching, they won't have such visual reactions. But do you remember some of your favorite audience reactions in a movie? Like, so with a full audience, like, do you remember like but something that sits with you? Yeah. A very specific one. I was, I remember seeing the movie Wolf of Wall Street.
00:21:43
Speaker
Yeah. And um there's a moment when Margot Robbie comes out not wearing clothes. um mys every name yeah I'll never forget.
00:21:57
Speaker
She like, I don' i don't even remember the scene if you've seen the movie, but she like comes out and she's against a wall and there was just kind of silence and something in the back of the theater went, oh my God. And the whole audience, like just a man went, oh my God. The whole audience just lost it. And I will never, I will never forget that moment.
00:22:17
Speaker
um So that's. easy being truth well yeah yeah beat thing He was He was, listen, he was, he was saying what he felt in the moment. The biggest fight I ever witnessed in a movie theater was kind of ironically at the Barbie movie. Wow. Was it Oppenheimer Bros? Oh, no. no this is this is this was like This is like a profound – this like could be in a dark comedy movie because it's like kind of sad but like so funny in its irony. Yeah.
00:22:45
Speaker
there were these teenage girls who were like really loudly talking. And then and an older woman behind them was like, girls, please, please, we're all here. We paid to see the movie. Like she wasn't being rude. She wasn't like, you asshole. Like, you know I mean? Like she was just like, please stop it. She was firm, but like, stop.
00:23:02
Speaker
yeah And these girls went off on her and they were calling her an old bitch. And I was like, it's the Barbie movie. We're not supposed to. What are we doing? Literally. like They're like being like, you old bitch. And like, she's yelling back at them. Like at the same time, America Ferreira is like, women can't do anything. Right. You have to, you can't be old. You can't be young. You can't, be back like you guys you're not listening to barbie like you're not listening to the text barbie's like really trying to tell us something like she's oh that's she's going on a journey to discover exactly what you guys are talking about right now like i really need you all to just sort of like lock in lil affair style and just sort of like be women it was sad because then they all had to leave because like security came Oh man. Oh wait. The irony.
00:23:48
Speaker
And then James I want to throw to you but that reminds me I don't know why i didn't think about this. The craziest experience I ever had was after the most recent Spider-Man Tom Holland movie. And it ended as the movie was ending I saw I felt this is at Burbank AMC 16 last showing 1130. Shout out a Batman's Batman's cinema. Yes, Batman specifically. And he'll play he plays he's plays a role in this. Oh, my God. I felt the the bar shake. I looked down the row and a man had a nu a dude and another dude over the bar and was who just boom. What? And then his girlfriend was going, stop it, stop it. And we were like, whoa. Bear in mind, at this moment, it was like 1 in the morning because was a very late screening. So I jumped up, ran out into the lobby thinking, I got to find somebody.
00:24:33
Speaker
AMC 16 1am. Nobody is there. They're all gone. So there was one lady in the kitchen and I was like, excuse me, there's a big fight. And she was like, I just, I i just, I'm just cleaning. Like, I know. And I was like, okay, sure. And so then i ran outside and I was like trying to find, and there was a security guard and I was like, there's a, there's these guys fighting. And and by that point,
00:24:56
Speaker
I like went back in the theater, the security guard and and I didn't see them anywhere. And I was like, okay, that's crisis averted. So then i went back outside and you know, if you've been to the bay Burbank 16, there's a Batman statue down at the bottom.
00:25:07
Speaker
I'm going down the stairs and I see the guy that was in the fight with his girlfriend and they're arguing down at the bottom. Oh, I was like, okay, well, I guess, you know, it all resolved. And then behind me, the guy who been punching him, i hear him shout, hey, motherfucker. And turn around and he pulls out a knife.
00:25:25
Speaker
Oh. Has a switchblade. Oh. he comes running down stairs. This happened in Furbank? Burbank, he comes running down the stairs. I i am on the escalator going down and I clocked that he has a knife and I was like, oh no. And they start having, he starts like a West Side Story swinging, like trying to stab him.
00:25:46
Speaker
They fight their way towards the Batman statue. The security guard comes running over. They get into it. He throws a security guard headfirst into the Batman statue. Oh my God.
00:25:59
Speaker
And I'm literally going, I can't believe you didn't start with this story. Right. I know. i did Well, you, cause you, you're the, what you said it? i I came to me. So then I ran into the parking lot and I was like, what?
00:26:11
Speaker
And at that point, all of a sudden, like four police officers pulled up in a car, got out, And like, I don't think their guns were drawn, but they like rushed past me and I was like, oh, they somebody must have called.
00:26:24
Speaker
And then they apprehended this person. And then I got stuck there for an hour and a half and I had to give like a statement to like three different people. I had identify. had to take a look at the knife and say that man had the knife.
00:26:37
Speaker
It was a whole thing. My God. that was That's the craziest one. i think it was And I think it was because during the film, the the couple had been talking a lot and the guy above them had kept saying, be quiet. And what i what I discerned was that at some point, he had like started kicking the back of their chairs and then that had caused the thing. So...
00:26:59
Speaker
Just don't talk at the movies, guys. that's the This is the lesson. Don't talk at the Because at best, somebody might turn around and call you an old bitch. But at worst, someone's got a knife. And they'll throw you into Batman. That's wild. but torment Before I tell my comparatively boring story. Sorry. I went off off prompt. but But I will say, like, I just have noticed an uptick in people coming to the movie theaters on their phones, screens still bright, talking to each other. Like, I feel like the conduct has just changed. And I i wish there was a way to just kick people out when they do that because it ruins the whole experience. um But here's what I will say. Again, I've never witnessed a fight in a movie theater. but
00:27:42
Speaker
But what I have seen, um one of my favorite laugh out loud moments was Borat, actually. h I don't know if you remember. I mean, the the temperature of that time was just different. our kind the The comedy that we consumed and just what we liked, the society was just very different. Oh, yeah. but that But that scene when they're running through the hotel naked.
00:28:03
Speaker
Yeah. My entire theater did not stop laughing for about five minutes. love that. It was just it was so fun. like i think I even like keeled over on the floor for a little bit. um It was just like I just remember that broad style of I mean, you can call it gross out, but like that just broad style of comedy just always resonated with me. I love that kind of stuff.
00:28:25
Speaker
And ah that and also a a slight runner up is an anchorman when Jack Black kicks the dog. Yeah. um If you remember that moment, that was that was also like everyone screamed and then laughed so hard after that, too. So those are two my favorite reaction moments in a movie theater. um Oh, it's still my turn.
00:28:43
Speaker
The last time I saw centers after the the big musical sequence in the barn, there was a huge moment where it ended and somebody in the back just goes, yeah. And the whole audience just roared. And that was a pretty cool yes that was a pretty cool moment. yeah I was feeling like that internally and just not bold enough to say that out loud. I love the idea that somebody was like, we are going to actually have an applause break for that. We're going to cheer for that. The most uproarious sort of shit movie I ever saw, good good connotation, not negative, was I saw a screening of cats in a movie theater pre-pandemic. Probably. mean, when was that? Like Christmas 2019 or something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I used to live in Harlem in New York and i and my like go-to movie theater was the Magic Johnson Theater on 125th Street, ah which I would say was a vocal movie theater in general. That's just like you you get to like learn like the the tempo of certain movie theaters. Like that was a vocal movie theater. And so like if you if you're going to a movie, you're sort of like buying into the contract of like there will be some talking. Yeah. Not to each other, but to the screen during this movie. So like, I don't know,
British Comedy and 'Taskmaster'
00:29:46
Speaker
don't go see The Brutalist there maybe, but like go see Cats.
00:29:49
Speaker
yeah I went to go see like an 11 p.m. screening of Cats. It was phenomenal. It was such a funny experience, but only made funnier by people's like visceral reactions to it. And like, it was like, we essentially saw like a Rocky Horror Picture Show for Cats.
00:30:04
Speaker
Just because of like that who was there. how that movie needs to be consumed because- i know best It's the best. The best is, yeah, that's the way we we can call it that. Because i there was no amount of high I could have been. No. If I had seen that in a quiet movie theater at like the like you know the AMC on 67th Street, like then that would have been torture. But it was the opposite of torture. It was like ecstatic delight. It was wonderful.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yes. um Okay, real quick. I want to i don't want to harp on my thing too long. No, please. What are you into, James? What are into? Well, um Allie, you're going to love this. um I'm into Taskmaster right now.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Oh my God. What season are you on? I understand there's a lot of seasons. Are you there are you current? Are you going back into the catalog? i'm I'm on a rewatch, baby. I have been through all of them and I've been going back. um I actually had to write this down because I wanted to make sure that I really gave everyone their flowers.
00:31:05
Speaker
So I've written down. So my favorite series, and now you can chime in on this too, because I know you've seen them. My favorite series, I think, is season seven. Yes. Yes.
00:31:15
Speaker
Yes. Season seven is perfect. Yes. Season seven is perfect. My favorite lineup of chaos demons. I think they're all fantastic. Great season. I also, and it may be recency bias. I really like 19.
00:31:28
Speaker
Remind me of the cast of 19. Okay, so 19, you have – Hold I'm pulling up right here. 19, you have – Even just like some other people. Yeah, Fatia, Jason Matsoukas, Matthew Bainton, Rosie, and Stevie Martin. Really perfect. That is just like – I highly encourage you. If you ever just like need something to watch like on a whim, you're just like need some back – Like it's just the perfect feel-good show. it's It's a bunch of comedians and sometimes just actors that want to have fun. And the tasks are stupid. The hosts are so fun. And every time I watch this show, I just walk away feeling like a better person just because of how much joy is in this.
00:32:08
Speaker
Is there a bit with a pea shooter with the Manzoukas season? Is that right? might There might. Oh, yes. They did. They'd launch. I've watched. I've seen that clip. And I was like, this is great. I haven't. Yes.
00:32:19
Speaker
it's It's come highly recommended, but it sounds like everyone who watches it like it's it's it's a blast. And it's a it's also introduced me to a bunch of comedians. Like right now, James Acaster, just because we have the same first name. ah But I love him. He's so love him i I love him so much now. I've really gotten into Sam Campbell from watching Taskmaster. What a maniac. My God. Oh, my gosh. Just wonderful. And also, I really love the people who aren't good at the tasks. Yes. They just like try it. Like um Judy Love.
00:32:51
Speaker
Like just her trying to like manage her way through things. She was great because she was always so angry. That's just like, that's delightful. oh Yeah, it's a great show. And like most seasons are available on YouTube right now, I think just like yeah for free. So I think- For free.
00:33:07
Speaker
Yeah, you just can like pop on and watch a season. Season 19 is amazing. Season 19 is amazing. So here's the thing. I do wish, because I know they did try to do an American version of it and it did not yeah succeed. um I didn't watch it. But um from what I gather, though, I feel like at least the comedians that they bring on to Taskmaster in the UK, they don't mind laughing at themselves. like They're not worried about image. They're not worried about you know how am I going to be perceived on social media after this. you know i I think there's just like this understanding That you know we're here to have a good time and let people laugh. I think the closest we have to that in the States is maybe what Dropout is doing.
00:33:46
Speaker
With a game changer and stuff like that. I also think that's something that those two things have in common is that it seems to me that Taskmaster is finding not all but a lot of these comedians ah at the start of their careers. So they're not like nobodies, but they're like up and comers. So they're willing to take some risks and be a little stupid and like, like really like sort of be like, Oh, this is such a nice way for me to introduce myself.
00:34:14
Speaker
And what I think is funny without having to do standup to ah like a new audience of people. And occasionally get people who are very, very famous in this upcoming season, Armando Iannucci is going to do it.
00:34:25
Speaker
That's like, that's wild. That's essentially like Britain's Jerry Seinfeld. Like, you I mean Like, that's wild. So, yeah. And then and sometimes it'll be like Sue Perkins or like somebody who like is very, very established. But yeah for the most part, it seems like it's like a...
00:34:42
Speaker
Someone who won Best of Fest at the Fringe last year and definitely has some fans but is not like massively famous. And I think that that's part of like where the play comes from and the lack of like awareness of like, I can't do that on TV. I can't, my image, like I don't think they're at that part of their careers yet. It's also a pleasure to get in on the ground floor with some of these people because some of them I've been introduced to via Taskmaster and I've watched in real time get really famous. Absolutely.
00:35:10
Speaker
I think Dropout has that that quality as well where you're like, these people are not so famous that they have to be devoid of having fun or taking some risks or getting a little messy with it. ah But a lot of them, as you get to know them, you're like, you're in a movie.
00:35:25
Speaker
That's cool. You know what I mean? like yeah I think Taskmaster has a similar vibe in that way. It does. so There's a real with UK specifically like actors and comedians. I think it's the same with actors, at least from the folks that I know that have from there have trained there. There's just this emphasis on embracing Like whatever the project needs you to be, you become it. There's not the idea of image and brand. And it's like, what do you, what do you mean? Like you're an actor, you're a creator, you're a comedian, you, you do the thing that you're there to do. You're not like, well, what is my brand? And, and how do I come out of this looking a certain way? That, that is a very, um, for my outside absurd observation, that is a very like gross.
00:36:06
Speaker
They think that's very gross. And i think it translates in the kind of work that you see coming out and the fact that so many British actors are running circles around Americans, comedians. I just, there's a real like, you're a, you're an artist. You're not a brand. Do your thing. I love that. So it's it's cool to hear that there's not this preciousness about how do I leverage this into a Netflix deal or whatever. No, it's so good. Jason Mantoukas was our first American to represent. And I'll tell you what,
00:36:36
Speaker
He did. he he made me proud. He did it That was. eighty He
Allie's Writing Journey
00:36:40
Speaker
made me proud. i was really, yeah. He was a good emissary for America. I was really excited. He brought the absolute, like if you want to talk about a brand, he brought the American branded chaos to that show that even Greg Davies in his driest of wit could not understand. It was fantastic. It was fantastic.
00:36:59
Speaker
um Yeah, so that was that was my thing. um So Allie, first a little backstory. So Allie and I have now known each other. We've learned for about 18 years now. Yeah, we just calculated this. James and I have known each other for the the length of one legal adult.
00:37:15
Speaker
yeah is this our friend Did you know each other prior to college? or No, but that's sunday that's unfortunately how long it's been since we've been college, which is also terrifying. um But yeah but allie um yeah, we met at Michigan and musical theater program. And um though you know we both were in new York at a time and then I left, but um you have grown to be this fantastic actress, comedian. ah You're a teacher, but also you're an author now.
00:37:43
Speaker
Uh, which is which crazy. Can I just say blew my mind? Cause like, I don't know, maybe it was like a year or two ago. It's hanging out with you and Marty and you were like, I wrote, ah I'm writing a book. And like, what? And you're like, yeah, I'm writing a book. you We're like, Oh, like, is it comedy? You're like, no, it's, so's's it's all just a book. and we're like, Ali contains multitudes. Yeah. mean, I will say I did not like talking about writing the book or getting the book made when it was happening because it felt so tentative to me that I was like, I will tell people that I have a book coming out when I have a publication date.
00:38:18
Speaker
Which is honestly baller. right like that is It's so easy, i think, creatively to want to put out there. like I'm working on something, and I actually thought it was so cool of you. that like no i It's genuinely like you can pre-order it now. I wrote a book, and I'm like, oh my god, this is incredible. And I think that honestly, it's something I take a lot. I'm inspired by that because it's so easy to want to just share things, and it's a reminder. like Sometimes you can just go away and Tinker at a thing and when it's ready, then it's ready. um The book is called We Have Reached the End of Our Show. It's a book about grief and the end of the world. Finding each other and and and when you know the end is near. um
00:38:57
Speaker
Yeah, i I don't know if if if you're comfortable just kind of telling us a little bit about maybe what where you were at when you wrote this book and then we want to dive into like also that what you were reading and thinking about at the time. Yeah, totally. I just would love to know more about this.
00:39:11
Speaker
Totally. Okay. going to start by saying a piece of maybe pseudoscience, but I don't know. i heard it once and was like, oh, interesting. So someone told me once that there was scientific evidence that um being affirmed for doing a good job gives you the exact same dopamine boost as actually accomplishing the thing and then being told you had a good job.
00:39:37
Speaker
So that like, sorry, if you were like in an MRI machine and they were like looking at the brain behaves and I was like, yeah, I'm thinking of publishing a book. It's got this premise and whatever. And somebody goes, dude, that sounds fucking great. I can't wait to buy that. I get bing the exact same feeling as like having accomplished the goal.
00:39:56
Speaker
And that if you do it too much, it can ah diminish your need or like drive to actually finish the goal because you've like kind of gotten the like,
00:40:07
Speaker
check mark enough times next to it. um I don't know if that's like 100% true. So like, i'm I'm definitely like hesitant to be like, that is true. But when I heard it i it it definitely resonated with me regardless of veracity, where I was like, sorry, woo.
00:40:29
Speaker
Thanks, sorry, it's so dry. California's so dry. ummen It's a desert. It's a desert, baby. um Yeah, I heard someone say that to me once and I was like, huh, do I get pleasure from just sharing my ideas? And do I get enough pleasure from sharing my ideas that it is like genuinely deflating the wind in my sails to like accomplish said ideas? I don't know.
00:40:57
Speaker
it might be useful to test that. So I tested it two projects essentially where I was like, I'm just going to see how that goes for me. ah The first one being my book, which was very easy to do because it's such a private venture. Writing is like a solo sport and ah definitely,
00:41:18
Speaker
um was one of those things where even people who knew I was writing a book would be like, what's it about? And I'd be like, I actually and not gonna say. I'm actually like just working on it and I'm still kind of figuring out what it's about to me. So I'm hesitant to like put ah brackets around it and be like, this is what I think it's about because I actually am still like leaving it open to, I would still like to see if I surprised myself with what it's about. And then once I was done with it, was able to be like, okay, this is what I think it's about. And this is the main theme. And this is a through line. And this is part of what my inspiration was. But like at the time I was really hesitant to ever really put a pin on it because
00:41:57
Speaker
It was so fluid. And writing a book is a long and strange experience because like you you can write it linearly, but you don't have to. i certainly outlined, but I did not write in order. I wrote it actually as a novella because I had a friend who encouraged me to send it to ah Tor Publishing, which is like a Sci-fi speculative fiction specified um publishing house because they were having submissions and then they didn't take it. But then I was submitting it as a novella to agents and agents were like, we're not really interested in representing a novella. So i expanded it and made it a novel.
00:42:33
Speaker
So it was actually helpful because I had not said a hundred times, this is a novella with this exact structure about these exact things and it cannot expand. And that, you know what i mean Like when I started getting pieces of feedback like this, it still felt very malleable clay to me um as opposed to being like, oh God, I've already told 20 people the title and this page length and how I structured it and why I wrote it this way. Like like it it didn't feel quite so...
00:43:02
Speaker
exposed Like it was still private enough that I was able to be like, I'm a lot, I can, I can throw that back into a blender. Like it's, it's mine. So who cares? ah The other project that I kept pretty under wraps while I was doing it was writing power trip, which is this musical that I wrote with my writing partner, Angela Parrish. So obviously more people knew about it. Oh, my mic. The mic just fell out of frame, by the way. That was like taskmaster comedy. That was wild.
00:43:33
Speaker
Okay. Oh my God. Now it's getting, now it's getting short. This is crazy. I love this. well While, while, while I was adjusting the mic, I'll just say Power Trip, Power Trip is a, it's a comedy musical. It's like a fantasy, a troupe of friends on a journey, kind of D&D vibes, I would say. Yes, totally. It is like a fantasy comedy. I always say it's meant to feel like your most freewheeling D&D campaign. Like the D&D campaign where your DM lets you get away with anything. Like that kind of D&D campaign.
00:44:07
Speaker
um So that was another thing where I had this original idea. So I want to write the script. I didn't know if I was going to write lyrics i didn't know I didn't know much. And so I also really did not tell many people about that project until it was like basically done. Because i again, was feeling...
00:44:24
Speaker
both protective over the idea, but also um really open to the idea of like, well, we'll see. Because at first I thought I would write the book and I would work with a writing partner who would write music and lyrics. And um when I met Angela, her pitch to see if we worked well together at all was she was basically like, why don't we meet and write a song together on spec essentially? And like, why don't you send me some pages of the script that you like or like a song that you kind of think would be a fun one to like work on together. And then let's like, let's meet and write the song. And if the process is miserable and we don't like the song that we wrote and we don't like feel like we are like vibing, nothing bad happened. We just wrote a song and the song never has to go anywhere. And i was like that's a really that's a really mature way to look at this. So i was like, cool cool, let's do that.
00:45:17
Speaker
We chose to write a song. The song is still in the show ah basically exactly as it was when we wrote it that day. Like it was like magic. And what she said was, why don't you come with some lyrics? And i was like, I don't know. I don't know. like i've Like I've written lyrics, but never like in a professional sense. Like I really don't know if that's like what I do. And she was like, well, I – I'm going to say what I like. I like working with people who at least come with a sketch. They don't have to rhyme. They don't have anything. And i was like, okay, that's not what ended up happening. i ended up writing like quite a lot of lyrics for this spec time. um And then worked on the song and it went fantastically. And then I was like, oh, I guess I'm i guess i'm like writing lyrics for this show. um But I think if I had told enough people,
00:46:05
Speaker
that i was or wasn't, i would have felt very like boxed into being like needing to uphold a promise, even though it wasn't a promise. You know what i mean? It's like, I know objectively that might be silly. Like if I tell a friend offhandedly, I'm right i'm going to write the lyrics for this thing. And then I later go, oh, i actually didn't end up doing it. They're not going to be like, liar. But like, there's something. yeah i don't know. To me, there is you like protecting this sort of magic of just being like, I am excited to see what I choose to do with this. And I'll tell you when I get there. you know what mean?
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah, love Ali, if you don't mind, this reminds me of something that you bring up in your book, and I think it's about Josie, and it's Josie's want basically to control people's expectations, right? Yeah. He doesn't want anyone to get left down or feel let down because, you know, I think, was it something about him not wanting to, like, don't look when I'm opening a present because I don't want my, yes, yes, because I don't want you to see my reaction. doesn't matter what you wanted it to be. And like prejudge my reaction. Yes, yes, yes. It reminded me of that. Okay. So that makes sense. I'm getting why you put that in there.
00:47:11
Speaker
i love i I love the concept too. And it's so as somebody who struggles so much with when I get excited about something, I just want to tell everybody. And I want to run it by everybody and be like, what do you think of this? And then I found that I have talked myself out of things that I wish I hadn't because somebody's like, well, I don't know. Or, oh, that's interesting. But you know you should really think about this. And then all of a sudden I'm like – Oh, the thing that I was actually drawn to, i'm so now I'm like in my head about what you said. i told you know This happened recently and i and I literally rescinded what I was – I was kind of telling an idea to somebody and they were like, well, it's for a film. And they were like, you know, distributors are really looking for this and they're not looking.
00:47:50
Speaker
And I just went – I don't care. yeah I want to see it. you know and And I had to genuinely retract and be like, thank you for that. I appreciate it. I'm going to. And and i I love that you are in this journey of cultivating like a secure and safe space to be like, I'm going experiment and going to see where that leads. and And by not putting all these external pressures on it to become something, it doesn't need to be. I i think it's a really fascinating way of working. And I genuinely admire it.
00:48:20
Speaker
Thank you. People will also in a very, very... well-meaning way puncture your bubble. Like it doesn't even have to be somebody being like, i don't think I like that idea. It'll just be like you say something and somebody be like, oh my God, you know what that reminds me of? um I think it's a joke in the office and you're like, ah, I don don't want to do it anymore. I don't want to do it anymore. You know what mean? Like they don't, eat like even that that person is not trying to like take the wind out of your sails or like demystify this beautiful product. Like, you know what mean? like they're not trying to say like don't bother writing this. It reminds me of this one joke in the office. I know that that is not what they're trying to say.
00:48:54
Speaker
But sometimes when you are feeling in these like infancy stages of this project where you like are really mushy-gushy about it and like it's mine and I'm excited about it and da-da-da, it's just – it's all possibility, no execution.
00:49:06
Speaker
Something like that can make you go, i am totally cold on this project now. Like I don't want to write it. I'm not interested. You know what i mean Like, oh, that character reminds me of this character. Oh, well, then I don't want to write this anymore. Like I'm not – I don't want to write that character anymore. Even though you know if you actually wrote a novel with this character, it wouldn't really remind this person of this character. It's like going to be so different.
00:49:27
Speaker
But people can say things that get, I don't know, it just like gets stuck in the little like cogs of the machine and it gunks up the works. So tell me this, because it sounds like you you had the idea of what ultimately became We've Reached the End of Our Show. um you You had the idea and maybe you didn't weren't necessarily sure what form it was going to be. So can I ask then, like so where where did that come from? Just wanting to tell this story. Just didn't matter how you told it, but why did you want to tell this story?
00:49:55
Speaker
i I had like... I had sort of been like rock tumbling two different ideas for a couple years, but did not know like where they'd end up or how they should end up. But like, I'm going to say like seven years ago, like a really long time ago, I had an idea of like a road trip at the end of the world. Again, I didn't know characters. I didn't know themes. I didn't know plot. I was just like, that is an interesting premise. Sort of like traveling through the world as the world is ending, knowing that the destination isn't just like where you end up, but that like the destination is like the end of time. i was like, that's cool.
00:50:35
Speaker
I wasn't like enticed to truly write it or bring it anywhere because that was basically the entirety of the idea. I was like, I just know that's a cool setting. And I just know there would be some cool characters who could live that. I just don't know who they are.
00:50:50
Speaker
Then I was also sort of rock tumbling another idea that ended up sort of like coming into focus later in my life, which was like, what if you found out the world was ending and you already knew you were dying?
00:51:03
Speaker
This sort of like came more into focus as I was experiencing more of my own real life grief. um this i I think I was thinking about this in like, I'm going to say like 2017 when my my mom was dying because I was suddenly like,
00:51:19
Speaker
in a room with a person whose timeline was different than mine, which of course seems a little silly when you say it because like objectively most children outlive their parents, but it doesn't feel so crystal clear. you what mean? You're not usually sitting in a room with your parents thinking like my parents will die before me, obviously, yeah or hopefully not. I think if you are having thoughts like that, you might want to like get some anti-anxiety meds. Yeah. supposed to thinking about that all the time. But I've been there. I went through the same thing with my mom. So, yeah. Right.
00:51:51
Speaker
So suddenly you're like, whoa. I'm in a room with somebody who I thought I had a lot more time with and they will die before me.
00:52:02
Speaker
And there's going to be all this time that I'm going to have without them. What the fuck is that going to look like or feel like? There's a lot of like pre-grief in grief that like is a thing that I didn't really know was real until I got there where you start like anticipating what's going to feel like, how sad am I going to be? How am I ever going to go back to being what I am? And then, you know, you get there and you're like, haha, it's worse than I imagined. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like it's crazy that you're like, you have all this like anticipatory grief and then you're like, well, at least I'm thinking about this now. And then you get there and you're like, I'm actually completely unprepared. It's actually so much worse.
00:52:39
Speaker
yeah It's actually way worse than I thought it was going to be. um But yeah, like anticipatory grief is like a real thing. And so i I was interested in it because was so foreign to me. Like I'd never seen like movies about it or like really read things about it. And so i was like, that is an interesting idea of like,
00:52:57
Speaker
What if you had already come to terms with the fact that like you were going to have to say goodbye to people and vice versa, they were going to have to live without you and do all this work and love and life without you. And suddenly you all have the same deadline. Like what would that do to your relationships? What would that do to how you spend the last couple of days of your life? Like well what would that spur you to do? Uh, and then over time I started being like, okay, i actually think both of those ideas, the road trip idea and this like anticipatory grief idea, uh, are like the same idea. I think they are like interwoven parts of this DNA.
00:53:31
Speaker
Um, yeah. Not to interrupt at all, but there's something you even in the very beginning of the book without spoiling it, that is so, you know, you have a character at the very beginning. We understand has very limited time. And we understand this relationship dynamic of I'm taking care of you.
00:53:47
Speaker
so sad that you'll be leaving me soon. And then the flip when Josie finds out that and Josie's like freaking out and, and then it's like, and then' welcome, welcome to there's, and I love it that, that there's like this peace and calm.
00:54:04
Speaker
And I just was like, Oh my God, you did. It's such a cool way to, to launch us into the experience of like put immediately puts us in this reality of, It's like you always think of it as like, oh, that's happening to somebody else. And now what does it mean that it's happening to both of us? I just love the whiplash of that moment in particular. That's the very beginning of the book. I know it goes to a lot other places. Also, I wouldn't even call that like in any way, shape or form spoilery. That's like the first 10 pages. Another thing that I really believe in almost all fiction, but like really believed in mine was like, I don't really like, I love sad books. I love sad movies. I love sort of engaging in sadness.
00:54:43
Speaker
um But I don't like rug pull. I don't like being like, ha ha, you didn't know this character was going to die? Fuck you, idiot. They're dead. Like, I don't like that feeling of being like manipulated into being sad or like shocked into being sad or like, uh...
00:54:59
Speaker
I don't know. That thing of like when a narrative takes sort of pride in being like, I bet you never thought that person would die. Well, right ha but sit with that. Like, I just don't like it. And i was like very committed to not writing a book that felt like that. I was like, I know this book is going to be sad.
00:55:16
Speaker
I know this book is not going to be an objectively easy read. It's going to be a lot about grief and sickness and the way people our age, like in the in the age ranges of like, let's say 25 to 35 or whatever, deal so differently with loss and grief and like people to have different, either from like your history or the way you were raised or just like what you've gone through in life. Like people approach grief really differently. And like, I also noticed in my own grief, like,
00:55:43
Speaker
people, me like having to like temper my own expectations or even like opinions of people because they were dealing with grief in a way that I found like unacceptable. I don't, do what I mean? Like yeah I felt myself being very judgy.
00:55:56
Speaker
And I was like, that's interesting. That's interesting that like, that like part of grief for me is being like, you don't get it. And I don't like that. Like, it's like, is that rude of me?
00:56:07
Speaker
but Why do I feel this way? Why am I judging this person in this way? so like all of this sort of like got into like the cement mixer of this story, you know? I feel like to that point, and I want to get back to another one of your points too, but to the to this one about how other people show their grief or understand grief,
00:56:24
Speaker
ah you know like you and I, are but we are not the first people to experience loss. you know And Kurt, I'm sure if you experienced loss in your life too. But it's i don't know if you've if you've had this moment where like after you lost a significant presence in your life, certain things become trivial to you.
00:56:43
Speaker
Yeah. And so then you watch another person across the room and he's like, why are you freaking out about this? Don't you know something drastic just happened over here? why you so you know and And so all of a sudden we have these layers of how much can we take because our grief can be so overwhelming or we've tried to push it down for so long and then it becomes it our spirit takes over.
00:57:03
Speaker
But something you something else you said, Allie, that I really like is that you know you don't want you don't like the rug pull. What I love how you what you do about in this book is grief can and will be a slow process.
00:57:15
Speaker
And there is that pre-grief you're talking about. There's what you're going through at that moment. But then there's also like the grief yet to come. And that's the part that scares people a lot. It's like, what am I going to do when you're gone?
00:57:27
Speaker
um ah you know when Especially when you're dealing with a loved one who, yes, if you do know, like if it if it's not a sudden thing and you know they might have to go through a process before they pass, all of a sudden you so your all your anxiety can do is just picture, well, what does my life look like without you?
00:57:44
Speaker
And who's on you's there with me? And you can't. It's unimaginable. Yeah. It's so hard. And I – I love the way that you bring all three of those perspectives into this story um because it's it's the thing about grief is that it doesn't end. You just you find different ways to continue ah your life with it and um watching all three of their journeys through that story um while reading, but watching their journeys through this story.
00:58:15
Speaker
gives me a little bit more clarity about my own grief and how I've interacted with people in the past and how I want to address it going forward. That's amazing. Thank you. I'm really like genuinely honored to hear that that – how do I phrase this?
00:58:36
Speaker
I wanted this book to be sort of readable by people who've gone through it and also people who haven't ah in equal measure and like to let people take things, take different things from it. And so like anytime somebody says like, wow, yeah, this really sort of made me blank.
00:58:54
Speaker
Like I started thinking about this in this way or like I was a little kinder. with myself after reading this because I realized I was being so hard on myself in this one regard. Okay, cool. I
Exploring Grief in Storytelling
00:59:04
Speaker
realized that I realize i was being really hard on this other person in my life because I, they, they did not deal with catastrophe the same way I dealt with catastrophe. I felt that I dealt with it better and I didn't like how they dealt with it. So I cut them out of my life and I'm like realizing now, like maybe that's not really the best thing to have done there. know mean? Like anytime something like that, I feel like really very honored because, uh,
00:59:30
Speaker
A book that is not super plot heavy, this book is not super plot heavy. This book tells you what's go to happen in the first time pages. Hey, you've got 25 days in the world. Okay, well that's it. Like there's not like, you know what i mean? that Things happen obviously, but it's not like twist, turn, this, that, dragons appear. Like nothing like that happens. And also not the, can we stop it? Yes, nobody's stopping it. We're going to send a probe into space. And it's like, I go, this is, this is what's happening. This is. Ryan Gosling's not going anywhere to stop this. Like it's just happening.
00:59:58
Speaker
um So yeah, like ah the point of this book is to experience through someone else's journey, something that I hope feels truthful, truthful enough that it takes, you take it back to your real life.
01:00:14
Speaker
Also, too, for people who and I and I encounter this frequently as somebody who loves movies that are sad and love stories that can devastate me. There's ah a beautiful devastation that I i long for and in in in stories and books and media.
01:00:29
Speaker
Sometimes I talk to people who are like, I don't want to deal with that. My life is sad or life is sad enough. And i just want to feel happy when I watch things or i read things. And I felt reading your book, there was a real beauty and ah ah sort of a safety in being like, you can embrace this moment, this part of life.
01:00:47
Speaker
And I think that's a really beautiful thing for people who maybe feel like, oh, I don't want to life is sad and I just I don't want to deal with it. I think this book offers a glimpse offers into that experience a way to think about it and reframe it as a as a journey to the end that can be full of joy and warmth and love. And like I just I found that to be a beautiful way to to say grief is actually something beautiful to experience together. And yeah, yeah.
01:01:13
Speaker
You know, and it's hard sometimes to pitch people on things where I'm like, it's really, they're like, is it sad? And I'm like, make it's sad. It is. but But that is, that is, that is actually such an essential aspect of like this whole thing that we're doing of being alive. Yeah. And I feel like you, you, I don't want to say like,
01:01:30
Speaker
It's a blast, but like it makes it a safe thing to experience and to go through. I just I really appreciated that as somebody who's frequently trying to pitch people on things, but they're saying, don't I don't want to if it's that I don't want to deal with it. I feel like can tell people it is, but it is beautiful and you should experience it anyways. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. There's something like.
01:01:51
Speaker
this thing that you were saying, James, of like being like, you start to be like, well, what's my life going to be like? And then the scariest part isn't like what, it like the truth of what it's going to be, but the fact that it is unimaginable. That is very interesting to me as well, because like,
01:02:07
Speaker
Yeah, so few times in your life do you truly try to look ahead and see like the vast emptiness of nothing. Usually you're like, I don't know, my job might do this or maybe I'll get this thing or this is the relationship in I'm in and like the next step for that would be this. And so like it is very rare to truly go like, wow, um the unknown is that nothing, ah nothing known is known nothing unknown is knowable. That's a line Angels in America, but I'm stealing it. You know what I mean? Like, yes, yes.
01:02:35
Speaker
just nothing unknown is knowable. Like that's it. Like if if it's unknown, that's, that's why it's unknown. It's simply not knowable. um And it's like, that interested me because like, we all feel it, but it's so scary. So if you can like find a way to put it into some words that feel a little more manageable or like see it just crystallize through one character's perspective, like maybe we can get a little bit better about like sitting in the discomfort of it.
01:03:04
Speaker
Cause like, Gabe is the like the protagonist who knows he's dying. His boyfriend, Josie, has known he's been dying, that that is that his the love of his life is dying for like five years now.
01:03:15
Speaker
And you know somewhere in the book, it says something along the lines of like, Josie's world had been ending every day for a long time. You know what i mean? That like, obviously it's a new context and it's like, oh my God, we're all dying. This is something new to still think about. But like,
01:03:33
Speaker
some major, major part of his life was already ending. you know I mean? How does that feel? Versus Gabe's younger cousin, Lisey, who's had like, I would say like a charmed life. Just like one of those people whose life is great.
01:03:45
Speaker
you know what I mean? lot ah There's love, there's privilege, there's fun, there's artistic success, just like a good life. Not a perfect life, just a good life. um Having to come to terms with the fact that this person who is her like idol and in her words, her favorite person is dying and is like really, really, really in denial about that because whatever it is about her toolbox, she does not have the tools right now to like look ahead to the future and go like, there will be a time in my life when my favorite person is dead. She does not have Right.
01:04:23
Speaker
um And so there's conflict there between all of them in a way about how to navigate that. Josie is ah responsible and honest and practical, but ah a humorless scold at times. you know what i mean? Like, ah is so...
01:04:44
Speaker
mired in the real life and the pragmatic and the everyday that like there's not a lot of fun and whimsy which like sucks because he deserves it a lot do you know what i mean and then like on the other hand like for Lisey who is a life of the party and funny and vivacious and like just the kind of person who would probably have so much love and empathy and you know what I mean? Like if she had the tools to be better at grief would probably be an amazing partner in grief, but can't, do know what I mean? Like just cannot cross the threshold, just cannot engage. Um, and so she comes across as being very irresponsible and flighty and, yeah you know, like, um,
01:05:35
Speaker
I would say to some people, the way she's dealing with it would be like repulsive. You know what i mean? Like, I don't mean like gross repulsive. I just mean like, how dare you engage with it in this way? um So that's this that was always an interesting conflict to me because it's like, we want to assign right or wrong to both of those people very badly. you know mean? Like, we want to see this as a black and white thing of like, well, Josie's right and Lisey is wrong. Lisey's right and Josie's being stupid about this, whatever.
01:06:04
Speaker
And ah bit my like hope in writing this, because I was interested in examining it because I was having these feelings about other people in my life and I needed to like sort of examine some stuff going on with me of just being like, nobody's right or wrong. This is insane. This is unimaginable. This is the biggest question mark of all question marks.
01:06:25
Speaker
we're all going to have to deal with it differently. And they're like, people will just ultimately come to the table with different tools and different ways to deal with it in different capacities for...
01:06:38
Speaker
holding
Future Creative Projects and Aspirations
01:06:39
Speaker
it, understanding it, responding to it, all that stuff. This really sounds so serious. I really do hope that that they i really hope the book has like has love and fun and humor.
01:06:52
Speaker
yeah These are all the things that I was thinking about. It opens up the door to have those kind of conversations and think about those things in a way that feels very welcoming and and inviting. and and not because that's i think that's people's reluctance is they're like, oh, that sounds so serious. and you go Right.
01:07:05
Speaker
Sure, we can get there, but actually, like these are really wonderful characters and I want to be with them and I and i love that. Thank you. The last thing I want to point out about that is that like grief, you know you will still encounter happiness and love and joy along with that sadness. so i that's what and That's another thing I love about this book is that you encounter all those things. and It's like, well how do you deal with those positive feelings in the midst of a lot of darkness? Yes. And it's it's it's reconciling with that too because that is that is a part of that process. um Yeah. Allie, last thing I want to do before we wrap things up is just ask you in terms of future work and don't you don't have to tell us what the project is because we already talked about not doing that. But hey yeah what what would you like to create in this world? What would you like to continue with your art going forward?
01:07:54
Speaker
Yeah. I will say I have two ideas that are sort of like on little turntables. Like they're just like in pre-pro kind of, but like I am excited about them. I want to write another book and I want to write a funny book.
01:08:06
Speaker
a I want to. Like this book, I want, I'm proud of it and I deeply, deeply wanted to write it. Like nothing about this book was an obligation to anybody else. I was enthusiastic about writing the book and also I have to say, loved writing the book.
01:08:23
Speaker
Loved it. Like I looked forward to sitting down with it all the time. I was writing it ferociously, but not because I was like tortured about it and not because I had like an agent being like, I need 50 pages. Like I just was so excited to write this book. So that was amazing.
01:08:38
Speaker
And very emotional and very cathartic because like these characters are not me at all. People would love to be like, so which one is you? And I'm like, none of these characters are me. Everything in this book is informed by something that I like went through because I don't think I could have written this book without living the life I lived. But no one is me. No one is anyone else.
01:08:55
Speaker
nothing is Nothing about this book is real life. So I'm also like excited to like have that same perspective with writing a book, but not have it be motivated by being like, woof, I've got like a crucible of emotions in me and I really need to like figure out where to put these things. I have this really funny idea and I'm like very enthusiastic about being like, can I write a funny book? So like I'm interested to find out if I can write a funny book. I have a good idea for it.
01:09:18
Speaker
I have another idea for a musical that I think is like really fun and stupid. and And I have been like talking about it with Angela for a little bit. And so like when we finally have some like time, we're going to sort of break ground on that one, which is excellent.
01:09:32
Speaker
You know, I like... Sometimes people will be like, what's like your right like your dream dream? And I don't really know because I like to make so many kinds of things. Like, you know what i mean? Like if if somebody, if there was a fortune teller and they were like, you will be a best-selling ah novelist who does nothing but write books. I'd be like, sweet, amazing, thank you. And if somebody was like, you're going to have a musical a comedy musical that runs on Broadway. I'd be like, oh, sweet, amazing. Thank you. mean, like, I don't feel in any way, shape or form, like, one of these has to be correct. But, like, I would be so honored if any of that was true. And there's also a part of me that's like, I don't know, like, why don't I, like, should I, have should I want to, like, should I make the dream to the be, like, to write a Pixar movie? Like, I feel like I could do that. You what i mean? I don't know. So, I don't know.
01:10:19
Speaker
I don't know. And that's good. Yeah. Sometimes it's good to not know. I agree where I'm sort of like, I am... enjoying reaping the rewards of any of the, work of the hard work that I'm doing, as opposed to like pre-judging of being like, isn't it a shame that I got compliments for that thing and not for this thing? I'm going to just like, you what Like, it's like, I'm going to keep sort of like running enthusiastically down the hallways that sort of like magically appear.
01:10:48
Speaker
It goes back to our our theme on this show is, you know, thus far manifest is the idea of just creative curiosity. and it feels like what you all these endeavors are you being like, I'm genuinely curious about this and I'm just going to kind of see where it goes. And I think curiosity forces you to check your expectations at the door.
01:11:06
Speaker
to go i don't I don't know where it's going to lead. The curiosity is the thing that's going to push me to explore. And there is no so there is no outcome that has to be ah achieved. It is just what's behind this door. And think when you do that, you can arrive at some incredible places where you go, I can't believe this happened.
01:11:23
Speaker
Yeah, I really agree with that. love that. yeah Also, you were saying we were going to talk about some things that I was like listening to or doing or whatever while writing this book. It's weird because a book is happens in so many parts. There's like a first draft and there's like your big first edit when you like are getting ready to submit it to people. And then there's so many rounds of edits once you finally get an editor, like a publisher. And those come like years later, which is weird.
01:11:50
Speaker
It is such a strange thing to like – Like I said, I like wrote this book in a ferocious passion. I like wrote it pretty quickly for a book. I think I wrote it in like six months, maybe less, which is like kind of wild. But I had time because it was 2020.
01:12:03
Speaker
twenty twenty And, um you know, like i had I had no excuse not to write it. So it was interesting when two and a half years later, my editor was sending me my first round of edits back. And she'd be like, why did this character say this year? And I'd be like, I don't know.
01:12:18
Speaker
I don't know. like I'm not in her head anymore. like This obviously made sense to me and felt motivated at the time, but like I'm reading this as a reader now and not as the person in it, and I don't know why she said that. And so i like it would force you to like try to get back into...
01:12:34
Speaker
sort of like memento style. You're just sort of like, what was I thinking about? And you're like trying to like, so you know, like see, where like it's, it's hard though, because you're a different part of your life and you're in working on other projects. And like, you're really trying to like recapture some of what you were going through at the time while still maintaining the objectivity of an editor, which is like, oh, maybe I should just cut that line. Maybe it's not worth me trying to like get back into the brain of this character. Maybe I just kind of wrote a bad line
Book Purchase Options and Podcast Closing
01:13:00
Speaker
that wasn't motivated. Okay, cut.
01:13:01
Speaker
um But I did love listening to music while I was editing. I can't listen to music and write because like there's just too many things in the brain. um But I had like an editing playlist that was really sort of insanely either like sort of new agey guitar music Or Soupy on Stevens.
01:13:30
Speaker
but It was like one or the other. It was like you know like every other song sort of like trading off. yeah And sometimes I could put that that like playlist on and just sort of like Dune style, like let my eyes go white and like ah be like, where was I when I was writing this? And just kind of hope that like the both the song and the meditation would like sort of bring me back there. And I'd be like oh yeah, no, I do know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah.
01:13:53
Speaker
That's so cool. um Well, Allie, thank you so much for coming on. It's really just a pleasure to to hear you talk about this. Go ahead. Where's the best place that people can?
01:14:04
Speaker
is there a is there a Is there a particular preferred way to acquire this book and to read it? ways it Do you have a preference? You can get the book anywhere that you buy books. And I will say every platform has its sort of different ah advantages. um I would say that the objective best one is to go on bookshop.org because bookshop.org links directly with indie bookstores in your Oh, cool. Yeah. So even buy the book online and just have it sent to your door and don't even go pick it up at an indie bookstore, they they'll like ask you like, hey, is there a bookstore in your area that you want this to like link up with? And you can be like, oh, um lost books in whatever. Yeah. Isn't that the one that's gross?
01:14:44
Speaker
Yeah. Or whatever. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, oh. Yeah. Like you can, yeah even if you just had the book like Amazon style shipped to your door, you can still like be like, hey, i give give a part of this to that. Or you can say like, I want to go pick this up at Books Are Magic in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. So I'm going to order it to the store or whatever. That's beneficial for everybody just because like I get money from that. The bookstore gets money from that. Also, if you are ordering it from a bookstore enough or like to a bookstore enough, if they don't already carry it, but they notice that like four people in the last like month,
01:15:16
Speaker
ordered the same title, they might just be like, eh, let's buy 15 of these and just have them on the shelves now. ah So that's good for everybody. It's an evil company, but if you do want to order it from Amazon because it's like the only place that ships to your area or whatever, that's still great. I still get paid. And to be entirely honest, like,
01:15:34
Speaker
having a presence on Amazon is great for any sort of business or author or anything. Like if nobody buys your book from Amazon, then nobody will because they'll see it as like no reviews and no orders. And they'll be like, this is obviously a scam listing. So I'm not going to do that. So like,
01:15:48
Speaker
I absolve you. If you're like, no, the only place that I can get this from is Amazon. Like, should I even bother? Like, if you are willing to just like, be like a five star, not even four, like whatever, just like, just be like, I ordered this from Amazon and it arrived. This is a book and it's real. Then we have all the book it's real yeah we have all benefited from this system. So thank you so much. So any of those is great.
01:16:07
Speaker
amazing amazing um all right well uh folks once again uh first of all thank you to ali gordon again for coming on the podcast uh as always if you want to reach out to us so what are you into pod at gmail.com we will answer your emails and also we're on the socials at so what are you into pod on instagram tiktok shakira shakira shakira our tagline is stay curious everyone stay curious we'll see you soon