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Getting Lost in the Backrooms and the Problem with Lore
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Talking out loud about the stuff that won’t leave us alone.
This week James brings One Cut of the Dead, the beloved Japanese comedy horror film that is best experienced knowing as little about it as possible. We talk about spoilers, audience expectations, and the rare stories that completely transform once you understand what they’re actually doing.
Curt brings Backrooms, and we dive into liminal horror, internet mythology, and the strange challenge of adapting stories from one medium into another. What happens when a piece of online horror built on mystery and ambiguity becomes a feature film? How much lore is too much lore?
Along the way, the conversation opens up into a broader discussion about adaptation, spoilers, mystery, and our tendency to explain the things we love until there’s nothing left to discover.
We also talk about:
• One Cut of the Dead
• Backrooms
• Spoiler culture
• Lore vs mystery
• Adapting stories across mediums
• Internet horror
• Why some stories work better when they leave questions unanswered
• The difference between explanation and discovery
So… what are you into right now?
Email us:
sowhatareyouintopod@gmail.com
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
welcome back to so what are you into this is episode 13 we had a bunch of new people subscribed thanks the power of angela yes thank you to the loyal angela fans uh we appreciate you joining us on this journey Yeah, we are our subscribers on YouTube spiked and you know what? We are grateful that you're here. So, hey, if you're here from last week's episode, which I had so much fun, it was so awesome having Angela on
00:00:32
Speaker
We hope you stick around and and we got more conversations and guests coming up, but we're genuinely grateful for you taking a chance on listening to our thing and seeing what we're up to. James, how's your week been? You've you're theoretically recovered a bit from being back. Yeah, yeah. I ah i mean, not not nothing too crazy. i um I've been back in LA for two weeks now. um But, you know, I'm kind of in a... It's so funny. I i want to call it a rebrand.
00:00:59
Speaker
I've got, you know, because I've got a pretty wide open summer. And so things are starting to line up. And um I'm taking on a new part-time job that I'm starting this week. And um i actually went to...
00:01:12
Speaker
for everyone that has listened to before I mentioned that I'm a big EDM fan. And so one of my favorite DJs, DJ groups, rather, they played this weekend in an LA, Gorgon City. They were so much fun. I mean, to to give you an example of how much fun it was, there was a dude that climbed a tree and was waving a shirt around. I was not that dude, but I'm saying that that that guy had a great time and that's how fun the environment was. um ah But yeah, so i'm I'm enjoying the time right now. it's ah It's about to be a really great summer. um And yeah, I've i've got some, um I'm starting some some different dishes on the ah on the stove, so to speak, and things are starting to to cook up for later in the year.
00:01:54
Speaker
This is always a strange time. Specifically in Los Angeles, so I know this is going to be kind of an insular conversation for people who don't live here, but it's like you speed run the first three, four months of the year. You're just like, yeah what am I doing and trying to get things going and everything is happening. And then like April, May shows up.
00:02:13
Speaker
And a lot of things are kind of taking a break or coming to an end. And it becomes this strange season where you're like, I've been going so hard. And you look up and you go, somehow it's June.
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah. what What is the rest of my year going to look like? What is it? Like, it's a, it's a, I was having this the other day. I was telling Kim, I was like, I don't know. Like I started to assess like, where am I at in the year? And it's such an arbitrary measurement. It's not,
00:02:40
Speaker
It's not even a, there's no measuring stick that I should be trying to measure myself by, but I still fall prey to that way of thinking of like, am i on pace? Have I hit a certain number of objectives by, and and I'm trying to, in this year, I feel like I've been given such a fresh, a gift and a fresh perspective in rediscovering creativity and and just a lot of things ah being mentally in a better place, I think than last year. And so I'm trying to, when those thoughts come to go,
00:03:09
Speaker
there is no this There is no year. It's just an arbitrary calendar of measurement. like I exist here and now, and what I'm doing is what I get to do today. And I'm trying to put that into practice. But I feel that going into the summer a lot of like, where am i at? what am i what's the What's the status?
00:03:27
Speaker
You're bringing up something that came across my Threads feed, which by the way, do you use Threads? Dude, I use threads, except i forget that I post on there. And so we'll talk about backrooms later, but I had a backrooms thread thing go, I don't want to say viral, but I like blogged in a few days after I posted and saw that it had been like reposted like 800 times. And I was like, ah and There was a bunch of comments and a bunch of people saying things to me and I was like, I've it's a breach containment. I've been exposed. So yes I should go on there more, but i I actually kind of like the format better than Twitter. Oh, it's way. I think I think the conversations are not as hostile.
00:04:09
Speaker
yeah But also they are more, um I mean, honestly, earnest. I think they are earnest. But the reason I bring it up is because um something that came across my feed yesterday was a thread about ADHD traits in smart men. and You posted this to your story, James. And I showed it to Kim and she was like, I'm not saying I'm smart, but I definitely was like,
00:04:33
Speaker
i it It was so spot on to the conversation that we've been having the night before, but please, talk about this No, no. Cause I was one of those things where I was like, sort I'll just read through it. So, uh, one, they think deeply about everything, but struggle to start simple tasks. That's me and bold capital letters. A and me. I was literally the night before you posted this. I was literally like, Kim, have so many things I want to do. And I just, I can't, I don't even, I cannot make myself do it. I don't, what's wrong with me. I'm literally venting about this the night before you posted this. What, what else did they call us out on and The next one is they work best under extreme urgency, which is ah thousand percent me. I, if you give me a deadline or you'd say like, Oh, this needs to be done right away. That's when everything in my body just starts kicking in.
00:05:21
Speaker
Um, the next one, they lose consistency. The moment routines become boring. Yup. Cause I, it's very easy for me to get bored. And then I think, all right, time to move on to the next thing.
00:05:32
Speaker
Not even, I would take it a step farther for me. If a thing becomes too routine, I, I don't, Boredom becomes genuine agitation. Like this is a weird thing, but the other day I was going to walk a trail that I frequently walk and I've been doing it a lot.
00:05:48
Speaker
And I got out there and I so stepped out of my car and I just immediately was like, oh, I hate this play. I'm so sick of this. Like I felt this. anger because I was like, I've done this a thousand times. and I literally had to go drive somewhere else just to do something new. And i was like, what's wrong with me? That's insane. But ah yeah, I get really angry at when things become routine to routine. Yeah, which is weird because I do i do value routine. I do i structure like structure. I kind of yeah need it. But then, yeah, if it becomes – basically, if I get an autopilot, then that becomes a problem for me. Yes. um Okay, there's two more. Genuinely, one of the reasons I love like being in a rehearsal process because I love the structure of –
00:06:32
Speaker
Six o'clock, I got to be there. But I love that. And tonight we're doing scene seven. And then tomorrow we're going to choreograph this number. And I love that it's a variety, but there's a structure to it. So, yeah, structure, but with variety, if it's structure of the same. huh Yeah,
00:06:49
Speaker
monotony is is my enemy. OK, so number four, they look capable externally, but feel mentally disorganized internally. Yeah, that's a, especially when you're dealing with, uh, complicated emotions ah about like you're, so you're trying to appear fine to everybody else, but then, but you're inside, you're walking with about 14 different confused emotions. And and I know when at its height, I wear it on my face and that's when, you know, like, Oh, he's not fine.
00:07:18
Speaker
Oh, it's, he's not okay right now. Yep. Um, I, um, I, I, I don't, uh, I don't mask that very well. Um, I know because I just become very surly and people are like, are you okay? And I'm like, fine. Yeah. um And then the last one, they often feel frustrated by their own potential. And that's a huge one for me. I i recognize that in a lot of behaviors. And here's the thing. I i do not take it out on other people, but I do, i get really harsh on myself. Yeah.
00:07:52
Speaker
Absolutely. Say you never project that onto other people at all. In fact, you're so supportive when people are struggling. You're very you're like one of the most supportive people that I know, which is kind of that is like there's an irony to that. You can be that for other people. And then maybe you struggle to show yourself the same empathy and, you know, the same kindness.
00:08:13
Speaker
that's the And that's the thing I'm struggling with because i I've always, you know, I've operated under this mantra that, you know, do unto others, right? And ah it wasn't until I got to my adulthood that I really understood that just because you treat people with grace and patience and and dignity doesn't ah necessitate that they will treat you the same way. And so then I was trying to figure out, well, why am I not getting the same kindness or the respect or the recognition that I know that I gave these other people? And so I've...
00:08:43
Speaker
even currently i'm having a hard time just like accepting like okay you know what i'm i'm not gonna get that back i i'm sure i put that out there in the world but there is no guarantee there's no law that says that this person is going to give that back to me and and and it's happened and i am learning how to healthily deal with that yeah i love that's man if i can be super vulnerable ah ah One of the things that I, and actually, I mean, I feel like a lot of people might feel this way. So that's why I share it.
00:09:12
Speaker
I feel like I constantly have this little voice in my head, even, even moments when I feel like I'm doing something I'm proud of, I'll accomplish something that I'm genuine. And not just saying being productive productive is is equal to good, but like, I'll do something that I'm like, I did that. Wow. I actually feel really good about it. And this voice immediately comes in and goes, wow.
00:09:35
Speaker
You're not doing enough. Like, yeah, but somebody's doing, somebody did this, that thing that you just accomplished. Somebody did that 10 years ago, you know? Oh, you just, you just finished writing this thing.
00:09:47
Speaker
Well, your favorite, your favorite writer did that 20 years younger than you. So like, it's like, I have this voice that constantly is going, you're not doing enough. You're falling behind.
00:10:00
Speaker
You should be doing more. And Yeah, and it's it's such a loud voice in my head that I don't talk about very often because that it's, know, it seems very negative. But i think a lot of people might have that feeling or or or something similar to that of...
00:10:19
Speaker
And I don't know how much of it is, is the pressure of performing for other people, the pressure of being in a community of so many high performing, especially like in in in this town and this in this industry that we're part of.
00:10:32
Speaker
Or if it's just part of being human is you feel inadequate, but yeah. Yeah, I think it's really good to to recognize that that voice isn't necessarily you, but it is it is something you can you can sort of call out and go, wait a minute, I'm having this thought, I'm having this this feeling that feels so true, but I don't have to give it weight. I can actually speak, call it out and say, hold on, wait a second, that's...
00:10:59
Speaker
I'm learning to also try to find tools and ways to to deal with that a bit better. But man, that last one, like that's the one that really hit me is just feeling like, yeah, you yeah but you're never doing enough. Never, never enough. You want to you want to maximize you want to maximize your potential. and And that's a true thing because like I said, the other day um i recorded a podcast that I'll talk about in the future when it airs. But um I was asked the question about you know where where I want to go, what I want to do in the future. And potential is such a big thing here because I don't want my life or career to expire without having reached that maximum potential. Do I know what that is? Do I know what that barometer is, where that line is? No. But there are times currently where I'm feeling like, oh, man, I
00:11:46
Speaker
I did all this work and I poured all this sweat and tears into this. But if a tree falls and no one's around to hear it, did it happen? Because sometimes it feels like that where I did all this work and got none of the accolades or the recognition for it. So will that even help me get to the next job? Will that will that confirm to people that, hey, he's really good at what he's doing?
00:12:09
Speaker
And I have to I have to learn how to silence that because that that is my own anxiety speaking. Yeah. Even though there is a reality in which, no, you did not get that response. Right. that That is right. But that does not mean you're bad at what you're doing or that it doesn't matter.
00:12:24
Speaker
But you just didn't get the a reaction that you were expecting coming out of that. And so I that's I'm in a constant cycle of trying to figure out and process those emotions when it comes to that for myself.
00:12:38
Speaker
And i I feel this way too on a personal level, but also sometimes collectively as, as creators and artists too, sometimes you spend so much time and effort pouring your heart into something and putting it out there and people just, even if the love is in there and the blood is in the work and it's,
00:12:57
Speaker
It just like doesn't find an audience. It doesn't. People don't respond to it. And, you know, I've done that with just even on a small level. It's like, I'll make a video or I'll put so much effort into something. And I'm like, people are going to see how much how much I cared and they're going to, you know, it's actually so interesting i to double back to a a conversation from two weeks ago about the movie Obsession. I just wrote an article or and and made a video about this yesterday, but obviously it's about like you know romance and you know whatever. But on reflection of that movie, one of the things that really hit me was relating it to how I feel sort of day to day in this this world that we operate in. We're so often, as you said, it's easy to be, I put myself out there. I try so hard. I, I try to be hardworking and passionate and show people what I'm capable of. And the hope is that they will love you in return, that they will remember you, that they'll think about you, that you'll be the top. You'll be at the top of their mind the next time they have a thing. hmm.
00:13:57
Speaker
And i in a you know, I saw in bear like this tendency to be like, I wish I could just make people not even romantically because I feel very good about that department. No, I know what you're saying.
00:14:10
Speaker
other levels be like i wish i could make people love me the way that i want them to and it helped it reminded me that i want to check in with myself that I'm not just doing work and effort, trying to build up a cache of debt and favors that I think are owed to me. Um, and I've, I felt this way before I'm like that person I've, I've done so much good work for this person, or I've put in so much effort and time, like surely it's going to pay off. Right. Right. And what I've realized is when it doesn't, the only person that really ends up hurting if I let it is, is me like, yeah,
00:14:48
Speaker
I just end up becoming bitter and cynical and then that ends up crushing my own soul and spirit. And so it was a a weird reminder to go, you know what?
00:14:59
Speaker
I want to be nice and hardworking because that is the kind of person I want to be. And not because I think it's going to get me hopefully enough favors and debt build up that somebody will finally think of me because then like, here's a weird example I just I just was on NCIS, the TV show back in January. And I auditioned for that particular casting director 27 times before I booked NCIS LA 10 years ago.
00:15:32
Speaker
And it was a great experience. And I remember the time being like, wow, 27 times it finally paid off. And then I thought there's all these other spinoffs and i was like, oh, surely like they're going to remember me.
00:15:43
Speaker
And I had an audition for them in ages. And I remember a few, few, maybe a year ago thinking like, what happened? Like, what, why didn't they remember me? Like, I, whatever. And then this opportunity came up out of the freaking blue.
00:15:56
Speaker
And then i hopped on the zoom call and there were all the people I used to meet and they were like, Hey, good to see you again. And then all of a sudden this opportunity manifest and it was available and I was able to do it and it was awesome.
00:16:07
Speaker
And I went, oh man, I spent years like having this anxiety of like, du what did they remember me? Like what? And I was like, there wasn't an opportunity at the moment. And so it was actually really healthy reminder to go,
00:16:20
Speaker
I can try to put my best out there and trust that it will come back in some capacity. I just don't know how or where, and it may not even return from that place. Like I'm going to be putting my effort into this thing.
00:16:32
Speaker
i may not see it come back from that thing, but maybe it comes back around. So I'm trying, yeah, I'm very much in that place of trying to be okay with, I may not see the payoff for this in the way that I'm expecting or hoping for it to. It's not a one-to-one transaction. Right.
00:16:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So moral of this section of the episode is that Kurt and I both have ADD and we need to love ourselves a little bit more. Thank you. And therapy great.
00:17:01
Speaker
Therapy is great. Mental health is great. And I, and, and you know, we, we talk, ah You know, there's yeah obviously there's so much toxic stuff out there in relationship to like men being isolated and lonely or whatever. And I'm like, you know what the real help solution is? Talking about it, being vulnerable, getting therapy, getting help.
00:17:20
Speaker
Like that kind of stuff is so, so, so important. Yeah. Awesome. Hey, I'm glad we were vulnerable. This is good. This is this week's therapy session for me. okay Amazing. um Hey, I understand we got, well, first of all, we had a ton of comments.
00:17:41
Speaker
I couldn't even begin to get through them all. So maybe in the next coming weeks, we'll start to pull some, but I know we got some emails. I know we got some people writing us in talking us. So what are we, what's going on in that front?
00:17:55
Speaker
Absolutely. So listeners, if you'll remember, a few weeks ago, we had said, the hey, send in some recommendations because we will pick a few of them to then personally watch ourselves. um So ah Mila, congratulations, because you're the lucky winner of my attention.
00:18:11
Speaker
ah So ah Mila and their email wrote this. A film I'm into right now is the 2017 Japanese comedy horror film one Cut of the Dead. I'd recommend going in as blind as possible, but for a basic premise, it follows a film crew during a shoot of their low-budget zombie film as a real zombie outbreak starts. So that's going to say for the rest of their email. ah But ah I watched this recently, and it is...
00:18:40
Speaker
I'm going to try to do this without giving away because there is, there's a very, there's a very obvious point in the movie where you're going think, oh something interesting is really happening here. So this starting with the premise that that was detailed in the email, it's really fun watching. And this is not a spoiler. It's all in one take.
00:19:00
Speaker
So you're watching them orchestrate this zombie apocalypse movie all in one take while they're also dealing with actual zombies attack them. And it's a very interesting turn on the concept, even for 2017. think it was a very interesting perspective on how to do that. um Then a thing happens.
00:19:21
Speaker
And the movie just takes a whole 180. And the 180 is probably one of the best turns of a film I've ever seen. um I really enjoyed it. And it it to me, what it and what and this is the larger conversation I want to have, is about the a perfectly executed twist.
00:19:41
Speaker
um I think a good twist is something that is not just unexpected for the sake of being unexpected, but it just gives you a new perspective with which to watch that film through. um Now, here's a spoiler I will give because the movie is more than 20 years old, but The Sixth Sense, I think I've mentioned this before, but that got ruined for me.
00:20:01
Speaker
And so I will never be able to watch. I'll never have that experience of watching that movie without knowing that ending. um And so, everyone that had that opportunity to see that and, and, and have that, Oh my gosh, moment. I won't have that. But that being said, what that twist is, which spoiler alert, Bruce Willis has been dead the entire time.
00:20:25
Speaker
um Is so you've ever seen, have you seen the Lonely Island music video? i can't say the word here. We'll get probably flagged, but it's the blank in my pants. Have you ever seen that video? oh I've i e eons ago Yeah.
00:20:40
Speaker
There's a lyric where they go, Bruce Willis was dead at the end of Sixth Sense, and hit him up in my pants. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, you're right. So every time I think about Sixth Sense, I think that specific lyric. What an interesting connection. Andy Samberg going, That's hilarious. Sorry. Go ahead. No, no, no. I am 12.
00:21:01
Speaker
It's okay. It's our ADD brains, remember? So, no, but what I love about that is that because that that was a good twist because then you can go back and watch that movie and and pick up on certain clues and see things that inform the decisions and the actions of the characters ah that influence the story. So I think that is a good twist. um ah Do I have a bad example of a twist? Not really.
00:21:24
Speaker
but ah But I think I prefer to have stuff like that happen ah where you have one that just influences the story rather than let's just go for shock value because then you're really just walking away with, okay, it happened. Thank you.
00:21:40
Speaker
i I think we as a culture really started to over-prioritize the payoff of a twist in that a lot of media in the last decade became about the twist.
00:21:53
Speaker
And for me, I go, a great twist, this is just my opinion, is One Cut of the Dead, which I'm so glad you've seen this. I saw this back in 2017. love it. I relate far too much to...
00:22:05
Speaker
the director in the movie oh it's great but i love a twist that recontextualizes everything that we've seen i like that that give that's not just and i yeah okay here's a question for you james what what do you define as a twist because sometimes i'll i'll see people will say like it's a twist or it's a spoiler and i'm like Sometimes that's just the, the, the, the beat of the story. Like I've said things about like a movie. I'm like, Oh, um, you know, this movie is about this. like ah to It's this twist. It's the spoiler. And I'm like, that's the premise, the twist for me. That's the twist is it recontextualizes everything that you've seen before that, that if you were to see the exact same footage,
00:22:54
Speaker
or sequence of events now knowing that now you have information or knowledge that fundamentally changes the meaning of everything that feels like a twist to me uh how how do you define or maybe a good to how do you define a really good twist or whatnot Well, no, that's that's exactly my my definition of that. It's something that that is part of the story. So it should be in line with the beats of the story.
00:23:22
Speaker
However, it gives you a recontextualization of what you've seen and and therefore could then impact the ending of the story as well. um But it can't just be like, I don't know, you go through a whole movie it's like just kidding, I had the car keys the whole time. And you're like, well, we weren't even talking about a car. you know like it It can't just be thrown in for the sake of throwing something in. Well, okay, I'm going to wade into some controversial waters about a specific thing that happened last summer. And I'll just say, ah i am I'm in the minority here, and I recognize people will disagree with me. So we're it's all valid. But there was this big thing with the guy, Revival.
00:23:58
Speaker
People were like, the set is a twist. The set is a spoiler. And I was going... It's not a spoiler. It's the set. Like, like i and I remember like going, that we well, there was a lot of, you know, and Hey, listen, if I'm, if you are one of those people, I'm not saying you shouldn't feel this way. I just see it differently. But people were like, I don't want to see the set. I don't want, it's all like, those are spoilers, spoilers, spoilers. And I'm like, okay there is something really valid about going, you know what?
00:24:26
Speaker
I want to experience the first time I experienced it. I want to take it in context. And I love that for, for people. I'm somebody who tends to go, I like saying things out of context and then, And then how does that work into it? I don't I don't mind that at all. Other people have very different viewing preferences. And I like deeply respect and honor that.
00:24:46
Speaker
But I remember getting into a conversation about like, well, what is a spoiler? Like a spoiler to me is something that reveals an integral, like I said, context or recontextualization of the story.
00:24:59
Speaker
Versus saying, you know what I just don't really want to see anything until i until I take it in. I go, that's great. I totally get that. But I push back sometimes, not just on on that. That was a specific example. But sometimes I hear people label things spoilers and I go...
00:25:15
Speaker
That's not a spoiler. That's just the premise. The premise of the movie is this. big Darth Vader is Luke's dad. Like that is a major fundamental and emotional pivot. You go, what? yeah The great, the enemy, the villain is my own blood. ah Like it adds new profundity to it. So I'm petty about this, but I've gotten into arguments about what is a twist versus what is a premise? What is the, but that said, that said, like, I love trailers. I love a movie trailer.
00:25:49
Speaker
Okay. But yeah. There are some trailers where, especially when it's for movies I've already seen, I'll watch the trailer and go, that's that's the that's the entire movie.
00:26:00
Speaker
That's the entire 3X. did I know exactly what the movie is. Why did you do that? But then there's trailers where you go, show me something out of context. And I go, what is that?
00:26:11
Speaker
What is that? I don't even know what that is. What am I looking at? Somebody might go, well, that's a spoiler. And I go, it's not a spoiler without the context. If the context is there, it becomes a spoiler. Am I being pedantic and petty?
00:26:21
Speaker
Well, no, but but I do have a question though, because, because you love films so much, you know, yeah I'm sure you can see a trailer like that and, and you can, you can decipher whether it's too much, too little, you know, like, but either way, your interest is generally peaked because you're probably going to go see it anyway. Sure. But I'm thinking in the context of the general population who You know, some could not be bothered to buy a ticket because it's too expensive and they don't want to go. So now you've got to find as and because also I don't think production is also always in charge of the trailer. Sometimes just. No, frequently not. Frequently that is out of your hands. Right. So now marketing is thinking, okay, well, what's the way that we can convince Joe Schmo in the middle of nowhere to spend $20 on a movie ticket to come see this? And so then they're giving you the big you know climax in a two-minute trailer.
00:27:12
Speaker
ah and And whether that's good or bad, it just depends on what you're what you value business-wise from our artistic vision. So I, yeah, so I, I, I, I understand your point of view. I'm also thinking like, but they're thinking of not you.
00:27:30
Speaker
They're thinking of that other guy. Totally. You know, I've gone back repeatedly to Jordan Peele trailers. hu They to me are the pinnacle because i don't know. i don't know if Peele is cutting those trailers in, in tandem with, I don't, I actually have no idea, but Ah, the trailer for Nope, the trailer for Us, the trailer for Get Out gives you a feeling ah like, oh oh, this is the potential of what this world could be. And it shows you imagery where you go,
00:28:03
Speaker
Yeah. How do... How we get how am I going to get to that thing? But it but it lacks context, but it creates a mood. And I I've like we rewatched Jordan Peele trailers specifically because I go.
00:28:18
Speaker
God, it's so he just knows or whoever. yeah yeah was how to create and evoke i go i gotta i gotta experience that it's tough because if you're a fan of an artist you're like i'm in i'm like say less i don't even here's a good example i have not seen in theaters the nolan odyssey trailer because i'm gonna go see the odyssey i love i love chris nolan movies i'm an easy mark yeah I go, I'll be there.
00:28:45
Speaker
yeah So I'm not like, maybe I'm like, going to go see the Odyssey. So I actually, in that case go, you know, I'm just going to let it, I'm going to, I'm going to see it when it comes out.
00:28:57
Speaker
Right. But there's other movies. Like I just saw the trailer for Leviticus. Oh, that looks so good. And I was like, if If that had come out and I had no context, I might be like, I don't know what that is. It sounds kind of scary with a, you know, biblical. at Then I saw the trailer and I went that it shot. I've literally been refreshing my AMC app being like one of those tickets on sale. I got to go see this movie because the trailer just made me go.
00:29:24
Speaker
That looks gnarly. So. Anyway, but to take it back to one cut of the dead, and I don't want, i will not spoil it because like you said, it's such a great thing to watch in context. um But one of my favorite things about what that movie does, and like you said, like like a great twist in general it,
00:29:44
Speaker
it
00:29:47
Speaker
it it really lets you think it's one thing. And then it really becomes fundamentally another thing that actually enhances the thing you were originally saying. It's not just a bait and switch. Like, Hey, you thought it was this. And it's not that it's this it goes, no, no, no That was still true.
00:30:03
Speaker
But now there's so much more to that thing. That to me is when a bad, a bad twist is just the, like, like you said, like I was all dream. and you go, okay. Yeah. So it's not what I thought it was versus like, no no, no, It's kind of what you thought, but it's actually way more. I love that. That that to me is the ultimate satisfying payoff. Yes. um Yeah. um Wait, can have a little anecdote here? And yeah it's it's not a great story, but um yeah I'm sure you've seen Burn After Reading.
00:30:33
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. OK. I remember watching that movie and the ending pissed me off because the ending ostensibly tells you after going through all this journey with all these characters and everyone's they basically say like, okay, so nothing that you saw really mattered.
00:30:51
Speaker
There is no ending, so to speak. I don't, and basically they told you you're an idiot for caring. And I remember hating that so much. And to the point, I've never watched that movie again. Now, maybe as an adult, I might value it a little differently, but I, but that's what I don't want out of a like bait and switch. Well, I don't know. Maybe it's not a bait and switch. I don't know. Maybe I need to see it again.
00:31:14
Speaker
i also feel like that movie particular, I feel like the Coens as a whole have a pretty, i don't want to say nihilistic, but they have a pretty like bleak view on humans.
00:31:27
Speaker
Like humans left to their own devices are real stupid and they're going to screw it up. And I feel like that is them at, to me at their most pure distilled form of being like, look, these people are dumb. And I, yeah, there's really no point to the whole thing.
00:31:44
Speaker
i There is kind of a gleeful humor in that, but I also could see being like, okay, like cool, great. So it means nothing. yeah um We're going to get into in a minute, and and this is not a segue. It's just I wanted to flag this, but...
00:32:01
Speaker
There is an aspect of the movie Backrooms that we're going to talk about in a bit where part of, and we'll get into a spoiler section, but there is sort of an explanation for things that I've heard several people say was deeply unsatisfying because because it leaves a lot to be to the imagination and it doesn't spell things out in a way. And I think that's an interesting thing. I'm always i'm always interested in from an audience perspective of How much do you want to know? How much do we need to know so that it feels like I didn't waste my time?
00:32:34
Speaker
But when does it cross the line where you're just like, okay, well, now you've just talked you' just told me everything. And now my imagination is like, okay, I guess I'll just go to sleep and you'll just monologue. for There's this really weird threshold. And I'm always thinking about that in like writing as well. Like how much do I want the audience to want to? I love movies for me that engage my brain. And I'm like, oh, what did this mean?
00:32:58
Speaker
But there is a limit to how far you can push that where the audience will just be like, so there's nothing you got nothing for me. But then there's you go too far and you yeah give too much. And then the audience is like, OK, well, now I feel insulted. it's so It's a it's a weird there's no there's no exact recipe for that.
00:33:16
Speaker
And well, and I want to get to this point too, but I think it's like, it's about how a writer builds trust with their audience. Yes. And, and back rooms has an audience separate from Kane Parsons.
00:33:27
Speaker
Right. So I think we should, we should get into that. So just to put a cap on this one cut of the dead, Mila, thank you so much for that recommendation. oh It's fine Great movie. And you know what I love about it without without spoiling it again, it's not spoiler, but I just love the idea of one kind of the dead being about.
00:33:46
Speaker
The ah like the absurdity of making things with people I like. That's one of my favorite themes in stories. Like just the, the, the weird, the weird communal aspect of trying to make things that are so hard and so frustrating, but we as humans do it anyways, because we're compelled to do it. And I feel like one kind of the dead does takes that theme and it does really wacky, funny stuff with it. It's a love letter to kind of like be campy horror movies. um It's great, man. It's great. I, I, I'm so glad you watched that. It's such a fun movie.
00:34:20
Speaker
uh weird interesting movie and also a great reminder that you can do a lot with a little yeah like that yeah at opening 37 minute whatever where you go it's okay i mean there's there's choreography to the staging of it but um man when we come the dead it's great yeah great all right um so then we appreciate it yes and oh yeah keep sending your recommendations in we'll uh we'll bring some of them to uh to the pod um All right, Kurt, it's time for the main event. Let's get into it.
00:34:46
Speaker
Let's talk about back rooms. Back rooms, man. Okay. So just for context, some people may know what this is. Some people may not. The premise of back rooms is a, is an open source thing. It's not a, it's weird to call it an IP because you go, well, it is an IP, but it's kind of everyone's IP. It was started. There was a series of images posted on, I think it was like Reddit and 4chan and, People were posting these images of this kind of trend and phenomenon in the last seven to 10 years of like what we call liminal space photography.
00:35:22
Speaker
Liminal space and and the feeling, the aesthetic very much feels like a ah return to a memory, to an idea, to a place that... Seems familiar, seems like something from a dream. But there to me, this is my own interpretation.
00:35:39
Speaker
it It evokes a sense of what's past, what's no more. So you frequently will see like things like malls that are empty or offices that are empty. Severance did a lot of liminal space kind of cinematography. But it's a feeling of like people should be here.
00:35:56
Speaker
These are wide open spaces built for community and built for work and nobody's here. And like, it's a very specific kind of, and and people i think are very struck by the the sensation of it. So there was a 4chan post back in, i want to say like 2014 maybe it was I can't remember. was a while ago. Somebody posted this image of this yellow, kind of yellowed ah room that you can see it goes back for a ways and there's fluorescent lights and somebody wrote this caption. Actually, you know what? I think it was twenty it's It's 2019. I'm looking it up now.
00:36:31
Speaker
This is the history from Wikipedia. Between 2011 and 2018, photograph of this carpeted room, fluorescent lights, and pale yellow walls was posted. And on May 12th, 2019, an anonymous user started a thread 4chan on a paranormal theme board with the caption that said,
00:36:50
Speaker
If you're not careful and you noclip out of reality in the wrong areas, you'll end up in the back rooms where it's nothing but the stink of old moist carpet, the madness of mono yellow, the endless background noise of fluorescent lights at maximum hum buzz, and approximately 600 million square miles of randomly segmented empty rooms to be trapped in.
00:37:09
Speaker
God save you if you hear something wandering around nearby because it sure as hell has heard you. And that concept set, ah just set an emotion, this whole sort of space to play in. And a bunch of people, not just Kane Parsons, but a bunch of people were making stuff around this, but Kane Parsons at the age of like 15 or 16 started making these short films on YouTube using After Effects and Blender and creating these liminal videos about often like found footage style where characters were wandering around and,
00:37:39
Speaker
Out of that, all this lore was built. I want to say he posted, i mean, maybe like a dozen or more. These these videos have gotten 70 million, 80 million views. And um anyway, there's this whole world and a very, very dense amount of lore and backstory and a lot of it open source. Like it's not just his concept. It's a lot of concepts playing into each other.
00:38:02
Speaker
A24 approached him and he got the chance to make this movie as a director. He's the youngest, one of the youngest directors. I think he's the youngest director ever for A24.
00:38:13
Speaker
This movie opened in theaters. It has absolutely crushed was the top highest grossing and movie of a 24 ever, or at least the biggest opening, I think. um So absolutely just dominating the box office, dethroning like Mandalorian and Grogu and yeah just like destroying, um which is crazy. And it speaks to the,
00:38:36
Speaker
the sort of voice of the moment that, that, that I think a lot of people that this is a movie born of a generation that speaks this language and speaks this kind of, um idea, you know, uh,
00:38:51
Speaker
in Which is interesting, too, because the the thing itself is a throwback to a style that a lot of the people who engage or create this kind of stuff weren't even around for. Like, I wasn't even around, make you know, I was around in the early 90s, but I was a wee child. I wasn't i wasn't sort of... But these these kids were born...
00:39:12
Speaker
you know, after, after 2000. And, and so that's sort of for them. and Only context is, is what they've seen on the internet. That's yeah all they have. Yeah. Which is, which is so interesting. um So anyway, backrooms came out, we both saw it. um And i really enjoyed it. I am, you know, what I said in my initial review is I'm wildly unbiased because I'm such a mark for this style.
00:39:37
Speaker
I love found footage stuff. I love liminal space stuff. See space, baby. Like you know, it's just, it's a good, I'm such, I love the, the energy of it, the aesthetic of it. I'm a big fan of like, don't hug me. I'm scared. There was a show on sci-fi called channel zero that I really love that also had a scary pirate in it.
00:40:00
Speaker
um So I'm such a fan of just this, like, and it was about a little kid, a kid's TV show that maybe actually was this supernatural thing. And, I love like visiting nostalgia as a point of, as a means to getting to some kind of horror thing.
00:40:16
Speaker
What I really liked about Backroom specifically though, and I'll give my broad overview and then maybe we'll go into spoilers, but I want also get James thoughts. But what I really like appreciated about the movie was, For my money, does not hold your hand. It doesn't explain a lot. I like that.
00:40:32
Speaker
I've noticed that there's a deeply divisive sort of take on it. Despite it doing well, I feel like people are pretty split on this movie. But fundamentally, what I really appreciated is that they did not try to go too far down the rabbit hole of the lore.
00:40:47
Speaker
What I appreciate is that Kane Parsons really... it's like you can feel... In the production design, the lore is there. Behind every wall, behind everything, I feel like there's a lot of intent and meaning.
00:41:02
Speaker
But I don't feel like the movie stops to be like, and this is this piece of lore. And this is this piece of lore. It just goes, it's there. And I go, he probably knows what it means, but I don't necessarily, much like the characters in it, I'm i'm just going, what is what is this? And I really, really appreciated that because I think there's a version where, especially in the in the era, and I noticed this in a lot of online fandoms,
00:41:26
Speaker
i I'm a fan of lore, but lore can really become very insular very quickly. And it gets so dense and it bogs it down so that if you're not part of that, if you're if you are just kind of a casual like, o what is this?
00:41:39
Speaker
It's really hard to even begin to engage with some stuff. And I love that the movie is like, no, no, just come to it as you are Take it for what it is. I think it makes some big swings.
00:41:51
Speaker
It makes some big jumps forward and leaps in sort of logic, which I think for some people didn't work as well. For me, it did. um But the biggest thing I would say that I took away from it is in the main character of Clark, who's played by Chiwetel Ejiofor.
00:42:04
Speaker
phenomenal actor what it's just what a everything he does is just nah and um you know he kill plays his character who's this ah so he wanted to be an architect and he owns and manages kind of a sad failing furniture store and in that that metaphor alone which i've seen a lot of people be like That's weird. I don't understand it. I found that to be the most meaningful aspect because I immediately saw myself in that of this idea of I had these hopes and dreams to to build, to make something.
00:42:40
Speaker
And they haven't worked out. And in Clark's experience, he's blaming everybody else. Probably not everybody else's fault. It's probably his fault. But in the shadow of that, he's sort of this cheap imitation of the thing. He sells cheap furniture. He sells things that break, that fall apart. He sells the accoutrements that would go in the buildings he hopes to build. That to me, that metaphor leapt out in such a clear way for me that I haven't heard a lot of people talk about because I see myself in that. I see a lot of a lot of people, a lot of aspiring artists, you know A lot of people who move to LA or New York, and it's like they live in the shadow of the thing. you know they this is not a This is not to diminish any of these jobs. But what i the analogy I made was like, I remember when I used to work at Starbucks, and I'd be like sweeping the floors and like looking over at
00:43:31
Speaker
the screenwriters working on a screenplay and being like, I am so close to them, but I'm like sweeping the floor next to them. I'm like close to it, but I'm not doing it. Or I, I work at the box office and I sell tickets to the shows of the theaters of the, of the shows that i want to be in, but I'm just, I'm just the person taking the cash to, to, to somebody else's dream.
00:43:53
Speaker
I'm I'm I'm just coaching people for auditions for the auditions that I can't even get to do the thing that i I'm always like next to it, but not really. And that to me was deeply emotional. Like I felt very moved by the experience in a way that was surprising. I i just went I did not expect to get that.
00:44:15
Speaker
from a movie from a 20 year old. Yeah. ah um And I have more to say in in some spoiler conversation, but that was kind of my my broad strokes is it surprisingly emotionally effective in a way that I just, I felt called out and seen in a way that I i definitely wasn't expecting. What did you think of Backrooms?
00:44:33
Speaker
um So right off the bat, I'll say aesthetic, 100%. ah hundred percent Loved it. like i One of my favorite types of horror or suspense thriller is when it's more cerebral, but it's the feeling of being watched.
00:44:49
Speaker
When you're in these spaces and you are in an unfamiliar place, but there may be an entity, a creature, someone else that just happens to have a vantage point on you that you don't have. That's my favorite type of horror to watch. um So right off the bat, I think the vibes of the movie are fantastic. I love the unsettled feeling throughout the entire movie.
00:45:11
Speaker
um I will agree with you. The performances are fun. I really enjoyed that. I i think everyone just kind of dove into um what is what what has to be hard because the expectations for those who know this lore or have followed the back rooms on the internet, um I'm sure they were very high.
00:45:28
Speaker
So jim to really embody that and make something as is as a triumph in and of itself. um So I really have to commend them on i'm putting a a a a great framework for something that probably had insurmountable odds in terms of expectations.
00:45:45
Speaker
um I weirdly am going to say, though, as much as I like that they didn't explain things, there's a part of me that wishes that they did, but not so much that you knew every single detail about why the rooms work, because I actually think it's better if you don't.
00:46:02
Speaker
um But I think what it is, is that because we added this human element, which is following Clark and following his story and also his therapist, um because you added that element,
00:46:14
Speaker
It almost makes it a little bit too relatable because what I did is after I watched the movie, I then went to the of the YouTube videos and i started watching. And what I enjoyed about that is there's a detachment.
00:46:25
Speaker
Yes, you have this found footage, but you don't know too much about the people that are in there. um And then certain videos go a little bit into the scientists who are also... um in this story. um So you kind of get a little bit of details about the humans when you watch the YouTube video. So what they did is they created a story that works for the movie. So this is not necessarily it's not canon in the sense that you're following Clark, who's existed in other stories like this is the first time you're meeting him.
00:46:55
Speaker
Um, but to me, it almost gives up too much to have a human protagonist that you are now following and following it a a dramatic arc with. I would rather feel detached and which is why, um, Kurt the other day, you had sent, uh, when I told you that I saw it, I said, like, this functions better as a short, because if I'm, if I don't have too much time to spend in there,
00:47:19
Speaker
there are only so many questions I can ask, but for a feature length film, I'm starting to look around. I'm starting to wonder, I'm starting to want some answers out of things rather than, um you know, cause like, I don't know if you've watched the YouTube videos.
00:47:35
Speaker
I have. yeah Yeah. They're really, they're really effective. They're really effective. yeah Did you get, did you ever get to the found footage sequence where he's like talking to a guy on the other side of the wall? Yes. And they both like, yeah.
00:47:45
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Just like so good. Like it was just like great horror existential sci it It functions really well in that format. and It does. And I think it it brings up a great question of like, do you lose something?
00:48:01
Speaker
in the adaptation, does it do you lose something about what made it what made it work so well in that format? and It sounds like for you, maybe you go, I think the original format actually might serve this this premise better.
00:48:15
Speaker
and And I did. Yeah. Watching those, seeing and seeing how the story was executed through those several videos. I do feel like an and ah an an anthological version of this story works better for me personally. um That's not to say the movie was bad. It wasn't. It was very effective and I really enjoyed it how it worked. But I do think in terms of the aesthetic, that it was stronger when I had several videos to bounce between and, you know, catch a little lore here, but really spend some time here. I also think um the the entities that they used in the shorts were much more terrifying than what we got in the film.
00:48:56
Speaker
So they really, they really did lean into a much more cerebral concept for the movie where I think that, I think the, the, the shorts really go, there's some, scar there's some scary monsters here. You know what i mean? Like yeah there's a deliciousness to it. And I feel like the movie went, we gotta, to we gotta make this about the mind. Yeah. Right. Which, which i totally depends on where you're at but I could see how that just for some people would go, it's not, it's not the world that I wanted to be in for me. I think it hit me. And I was like, Whoa, I was not expecting an exploration of psych a lot. Like I was like, that's really interesting. But I could also see people being like,
00:49:37
Speaker
What about, what about those guys? You know? Cause like, cause I, I liken it to how, I feel like I also talked about this on the podcast, but the strangers, right? Where in the very first movie, they're asking why they're being attacked and all they say is you were home. There's something so terrifying about that where it's like, you can't rationalize what this is.
00:49:58
Speaker
Other than this person just wants to hurt you. And I think what is so effective about the the backroom shorts is that you will not get an explanation. There is no connection to you. like you You don't know why this is happening. But in the film- Even Halloween. The first Halloween is so good because you go, Michael Myers is just, he wants to kill you. He just- yeah He does. And then, and then when you try to go like, yeah, he was a child and he's traumatized and you go, all right, yeah you go, yeah, sure. Like I see it, but now I go, i don't know. Now I'm not as scared. Now I'm like, okay, now I understand his motivation. But yeah, sometimes, sometimes a lack of motivation is the existential dread that really actually works on a more primal level. Cause you go, i just, it's coming after me and I don't know why I can't rational, i can't rationalize my way out of this situation. Yeah.
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah. So that's, that's, like I said, overall, I still enjoyed it. I thought it was a great time. And I really, between this and Obsession, we're in a really great spot for new horror, I feel like. So um I did enjoy it. But yeah, I just do think the medium has kind of changed its impact on me.
00:51:05
Speaker
I have two thoughts. I want to get into spoilers, but I also want to maybe just pivot from there for a second to something that I was curious to talk to you about a question that I had, yeah which does relate to a lot of the work that we've done. um But I think in general, as more online creators build their own platforms and then that potentially opens doors to making things on a bigger scale.
00:51:28
Speaker
the question of the medium and the adaptation of the medium. So I wrote a Twitter thread about this and I think it relates to things like what we've done with StarKid or other online projects. um But the the Twitter thread said this, I said, there's a fascinating conundrum between the indie artist creator and the audience. Often the audience sees the leveling up of production as losing something organic to what made the original special. Meanwhile, the creators want to experiment and level up production because it's fun.
00:52:00
Speaker
The two opposing desires are often in conflict with each other. i see it from both sides. Like I want to make the most immersive, creative, and best thing I can possibly make because I want to do it for me. But I understand the audience may be there for the scrappiness and the vibes. Ultimately, neither perspective is right or wrong. This is my take.
00:52:18
Speaker
They're just in pursuit of different goals and that's okay. Where does that leave us? Not sure. But I think you have to keep liking what you like and making what you want and hope that those two things overlap. I'm curious what you think about that because I've noticed this sometimes with people going like like stuff the shows that we've been in.
00:52:34
Speaker
ah very valid very valid takes people going I just miss when it was just a camera and it was just like the old it was just a camera and it was a bad audio and it was just a group of friends hanging out and and and now like the shows are are are too fancy and there's too many it looks too nice and I just want it to be like what it was meanwhile I think all of us as creators are like we want to We want to like make it. We're so excited. It's so fun to go. Oh my gosh, we can finally bring this vision to life.
00:53:04
Speaker
And I think this could be true with back rooms. I see a lot of comments of like, eh, I liked it better when it was on YouTube or like something is lost when all of a sudden there's a $10 million dollars budget to build out the real sets and to move through these visceral spaces. I love that. But maybe, maybe ah a year old fan who's like, it actually loses something for me. What do you, what do you think of that? I don't think it's a thing that can be solved, but what what is your take on doing something by leveling up the quality?
00:53:36
Speaker
I, I, it depends on the project, right? Yeah. And also just intent, you know, cause here's the thing. I think every artist is, it's somewhere deep down in their soul wants to make their art with the greatest amount of support possible, whether that's financial, whether that's personnel, they need, they, I'm sure they want every resource possible. That's just not possible in our current capitalist society.
00:54:02
Speaker
So when you do a thing like a star kid, which initially started in a black box theater with no money, but just the will to want to put on a show.
00:54:12
Speaker
Yeah. There is something unique and magical about that because it is a pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just how can we make a carpet fly? How can we make a hat talk? You know, like we just get those limitations become really fun, organic things.
00:54:27
Speaker
It's what actually gives it the DNA that makes it different is because you go, we didn we couldn't we didn't have a Beauty and the Beast on Broadway budget, so we did this. And you go, that's so fun.
00:54:39
Speaker
Go ahead, sorry. No, no, no, it's fine. because A ballet teacher once told me adversity is the mother of creation. And that is very true. It's so valid because some of the greatest things we've consumed in our media came from an accident or lack of funds or you know the intention was to go... the Jaws. Jaws, yes. Jaws, you know, you go, it was supposed to be a giant shark and then it didn't work and they went, all right, just just the fin. And then everyone goes, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, don't show the monster. And you're like...
00:55:07
Speaker
We wanted to show the monster, but it didn't work. And then it accidentally becomes the thing that people is what is organically people are responding to. um and that's that's challenging.
00:55:19
Speaker
yeah I think about George Lucas with getting a chance to go back and remit remaster the the the original trilogy. Yeah. And it's like he pioneered so many incredible visual tools that we genuinely should be like, we we owe a debt of gratitude to George Lucas for modern day VFX.
00:55:41
Speaker
When you watch those movies, you go, i don't know, just do the puppet. just do the Just do the puppets doing the music in the cantina. when you when you When you do the graphics and it's like, ah, it's in your face and you're like, ah, it doesn't...
00:55:53
Speaker
So i I have felt that where I'm like, I just like the original. I like when you had no money and you just did it like with your hands. Yeah. so i said I can understand that feeling. I've said that about Jurassic Park. I thought for years that the original was so much better because of the puppetry, because of the the practical effects. I will always champion practical effects over CGI. um or anything like that. So i I understand when people are saying it was better when you had less money. Like I get that.
00:56:23
Speaker
However, sometimes when you have an imagination and you do want to execute certain, whether it's stagecraft, film, television, whatever, you know, <unk> sometimes having the funds is necessary in order to make that thing look the best it can be. And that's not to say that they're like, you know, I know people have said things about the guy remount.
00:56:43
Speaker
Um, And how, yeah, like you said, the set, some people have even said this, the light panels that we had in the original was, was better than having this new one. And that's, you know, dealer's choice. You know, if that's how you view the show, that's totally fine. But there are even things down to just, you know, how you use a stage and how you use the space.
00:57:01
Speaker
Not everything translates one to one. yeah. yeah, we could have made the choice to just keep those light panels, but then it just doesn't look the same when you have a much larger space. So I i think it just it's the intent of what it is, what kind of story you're trying to tell. What image do you want the audience to walk away with that will necessitate whether you need a lot of money or you don't. But I i don't think there's a hard and fast...
00:57:26
Speaker
ah You will always lose something if you take an adaptation and give it some more support, some more funding, things like that. I don't i don't think that's always the case. Sometimes you it you level up. um I think what I will add to this is that, and maybe this is my my feeling about backrooms, is that I don't think it was bad. Maybe we tell a different story because I think the for me, the way that it worked in those shorts, I think that alone is good. So maybe we take that idea, do something different with it and not call it back rooms. Maybe we would just do something else.
00:58:03
Speaker
I think that the litmus test for me is frequently going, why does it have to be in this medium or this format? And if I go, if the only reason is because it would be bigger, not a good reason.
00:58:20
Speaker
But if I go, no, the, the, The things that we can, you know, i was talking to Jeff Blum about this when I interviewed him for the, the guide documentary. And he said, he was like, I was worried that guy would not scale.
00:58:33
Speaker
He's like, cause he wrote it to be this small scrappy thing. He's like, and I, he's like, I was worried. I didn't know. Could it fill the theater? And he's like, but once I saw Lauren's vision and the staging and your choreography, he's like, then I went, no, it, it,
00:58:47
Speaker
it was adapted to then fill in the space and so so it's like to me that's a really smart execution of going can i am i so is this is this story i want to tell better served in a new space set medium whatever if it's just wouldn't it be cool if it was bigger and more expensive that's probably not a great That's probably not a great reason to revisit something. But if you're like, I think I could do something that I've always wanted to do. We're always wanting to try. I will always support an artist for going even even if it doesn't maybe it doesn't work. But I go, I respect you going. I wanted to try it. I wanted to see if I could do something. I i have this itch that this specific format
00:59:31
Speaker
like I can do something that I couldn't do before. yeah But it's a i think it's a really good, well healthy question to ask yourself. I think that where I tend to, it's not even a pushback, but my take is I think sometimes I've seen the take of, this is not just about Stark and stuff, but I've seen the take of like, they think we want it to just be bigger.
00:59:51
Speaker
And they're doing it because they think it'll impress us. And I always want to be like, actually, I don't think that's why a lot of people do it. I think they're doing it because they want to try it. Like, not because it's like, did you go? Oh, you guys like the small thing? Well, well, you'll really like this.
01:00:08
Speaker
To me, it's like, no, it's us going. I just want to I want to do that. Oh, my God. I want to like I think about spies of forever a lot. We made it on a shoestring budget in this tiny little theater.
01:00:19
Speaker
We always went, if we could, if we could have more time and more resources and we could do this with So I go, oh my God, I would jump at the chance to, to, to see that world fully realized the way we always imagined it. But I can imagine people might see that and go, I liked it better when it was just sort of scrappy. And I'm like, totally understand it, but we would want to do it for us. So I think if you can check in with yourself and go, I'm doing this for me.
01:00:43
Speaker
And like I said, i I think we're trying to find that Venn diagram of like, like what you like. Don't don't feel like you have to like something just because ah somebody makes something bigger and better. And then as an artist, you just kind of go, I got to make what i what i what I like and then I hope...
01:00:59
Speaker
hope that that Venn diagram overlaps. We talked about it earlier where sometimes it doesn't. You pour your heart into it you make it and people don't care. Yeah, they're just like, all right, thanks, yeah.
01:01:10
Speaker
And then you move on, but sometimes you get lucky and you make something that's sort of the the fullest expression of that idea and there's an audience for it, like with Obsession or something like that. so um I'll also shout out VHS Christmas Carol because that now has three very distinct versions. We got the the ah the one that was only online. Then we did the one that was in the Bourbon Room in Hollywood, ah so which had like the LED screen in the back and it was in a bar setting. But then we have this actual stage version, which has two acts. So there's three versions of the same show, but each tells it in a slightly different way. And and I loved how you you modified it.
01:01:52
Speaker
Like yeah you let the, you modified that each version of the show is exactly what it needed to be for the space in which it was like being presented. Absolutely. Bourbon room felt like a, you're in the audience. You're, you know, you're hanging out like, you know, versus like ah the Apollo in Chicago was a much more, Hey, the audience is gathered around. I think that was a really smart staging that you didn't just go, Hey, it's the same show. It's a different venue, bigger, more money. It's no, it's each thing is and is an opportunity.
01:02:20
Speaker
Yeah. So I think it's yeah, like i said, it's all about intent. It's all about finding, you know, how does it work in this medium? Give it a purpose for doing it that way. And I think that will ring louder than just, oh, they've got more money now.
01:02:33
Speaker
Yeah. Well, quick, ah quick spoiler thing on backrooms. I want to touch base. Not a big thing, but if you don't want to know anything about it, tune out. But we're going to talk about spoilers for a second.
01:02:44
Speaker
I just want to quickly talk about the end, which. I think a valid critique of the movie is that this there is no second act. yeah I kind of loved it because I've written so many short films where I've used this model when I'm doing short films where I'm like, I'm gonna do an act one and then an act three and the audience can fill in the gaps.
01:03:05
Speaker
yeah I kind of love the ambition of that. I recognize that some people might feel like... So basically we we follow Clark. He's discovered, oh, the back rooms. Oh, it's this thing. What's going on? He takes some coworkers down in their gnarly sequence where like there. I love that sequence, by the way, when they're like running around and crazy stuff. It's freaking Christmas tree room is just terrifying. Wild. Yeah.
01:03:27
Speaker
But then we like hard cut to he's gone. And then his therapist, Renata Reinsfeld, has to go find him. And by the time she finds him, he's like, it's He's lost it. He's doing, he's living a whole world in there. There's not a lot of, there's no showing of his descent into madness.
01:03:48
Speaker
So that could, I mean, listen, if that didn't work for you, I totally get it. However, at the end, um a scientist played by ah um Mark Duplass shows up and I thought, okay, here's gonna, here's comes a scene where they're to like, here's what the back rooms are.
01:04:04
Speaker
And I love the fact that they were like, we don't know. We got no idea. we were a MRI company and now we're not. And we don't know what's up. Do you I love that. Like the, the, I, I, I appreciated that the, the twist was here comes the big explanation.
01:04:26
Speaker
and I actually found it more scary that they were like, we got no idea. That I've noticed has been a big issue for a lot of people. Like, why waste my time?
01:04:37
Speaker
Why even pretend? Explain it or don't. What did you think of that? i I loved it. I loved how frustrating it was, but I know it didn't work for a lot of people. What did what did you think of that? So this goes back to my point earlier about because we extend the story into a feature, you just allow room for more questions to be asked and and you introduce more story elements. And so the that company is in the shorts, too. So they exist. like so So what happens throughout the whole movie is that Kane incorporates a lot of the lore, um whether it's by site or, you know, it might be a little Easter egg here. They might mention something. But a lot of the lore is kind of like a little bit of fan service. I'm not going to say it's too heavy handed. Sure. like
01:05:19
Speaker
Very much. Yeah. but But they incorporate enough that you like if you're a fan and you've been reading these things, you'll see it and you'll notice it. So you might appreciate that. But then, yeah, we get to this point where we know that because we see Mark Duplass like two or three times throughout the movie. see So you know, he's watching footage on a monitor and you see him at home with his family and he recognizes Clark, the Ottoman Empire guy. Yeah. Commercial. and He's like, that's the guy I've been looking at. Yeah, and so because because we're – again, it's like you're watching him now and then you're that's concurrent with what's going on in the back rooms. So you are kind of as a viewer hoping for an ending. But then we get to this and to me what I didn't like about that – like it's fine if they don't know what's going on. That's pretty much what the shorts are about too. They don't know what's happening.
01:06:09
Speaker
To me, it suggests though something that's a little more finite in that we already saw clark Pirate Clark, a version of himself. And then at the end, we see a version of of Mary.
01:06:23
Speaker
um that is now like embedded into the back rooms. And to me, that felt like it was suggesting that it's a place where all of our deepest fears or whatever, you know, like they get sucked into this. And so then an irregular deformed version of ourselves exists there.
01:06:39
Speaker
But yeah I don't like that being the thing you walk away with though, because to me, it gives an answer to something that I don't think should have had an answer. Um, I think it's much more terrifying. i don't, I just, i don't know how I'm, I'm not going to sit here and think I, I have a better ending, but to leave it on that felt like, Oh, I wish you wouldn't have told us that, or I wish we wouldn't have seen that rather than maybe this is the one time I think ambiguity would have been a better choice.
01:07:10
Speaker
Just leave it like that. Um, so it I'm, I'm mixed in how I received that ending. Totally. No, that's, that's super valid. And that's, i I love this is like, that's why i like having this podcast. i I, find it so meaningful to talk about how did that land on you?
01:07:32
Speaker
And I, when somebody, when I, when I liked it and somebody didn't or vice versa, I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. Not, I see that so much, so much, so often the online discourse is like, screw you. I loved it. Or you're so stupid if you like. And I'm like, no, it's interesting that these things strike us differently and land on us differently. So yeah, I, I find a lot, that's a really interesting perspective.
01:07:54
Speaker
To go, because I go, oh, what okay. If I didn't know, what would that have been? And what what could that have unlocked in me? i i love i love discourse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it's and And that's the thing. is like I don't personally enjoy, i don't even call it a critique. Because I know a lot of people like to tell you what the better ending is. Even though they themselves are not a writer, but they might just be an enjoyer of whatever thing it is. So I i try not to partake in that kind of conversation, but I do feel like is I know how I felt walking away from a situation. And so totally i I do wish there was a
01:08:31
Speaker
The way overall, the journey that we take through this movie and I'm so i'm separating the movie from backrooms lore, the the what we walk away from with this movie, I felt like almost gave too much, but yet not enough.
01:08:45
Speaker
And so sure there's, yeah, I don't know if they and I don't know if they plan on making s sequels because people have suggested that it ended the way that it did because it leaves the door open for possible sequels in the future. I got after the money it's made, I can't imagine that's at least not a on the table. So and if they go that route, I will see. I mean, I'll still be interested to watch it. I I don't want to get too deep into that only because, again, the longer it gets, the more it reveals. And I like the way that Cain Parsons handle his shorts on YouTube. because of how finite they were and because of how much it does not leave on the table for you. So yeah there's room for it and I'm open to seeing what happens. But yeah, I would just say highly, if you see the movie, awesome. But I also highly recommend checking out the actual original videos on under the cane pixels is what it's under. But man, they're,
01:09:44
Speaker
it's so It's just really cool, and I think for me as ah as a filmmaker who's definitely older than him, but not like, you know, the the boomer generation of filmmakers, I want to immerse myself in this language and understand It's like, I want to make, I want to make films that, that 19 year olds would show up and watch. And so I find a lot of meaning and value of not just from a research perspective, but as I was going in the rabbit hole, watching all his stuff and, and even going back and watching the obsession, the obsession team, their old like sketch comedy stuff. There's a lot to be mine. It's like so much good stuff out there. And I, I think it's exciting
01:10:25
Speaker
I hope that Hollywood learns the right lesson, but I love that there is, you know, for years, everyone's like, movies are dead. Kids don't see movies. And it's like, well, in fact, I'm working on a, I'm working on a sub stack video essay right now for this. It's like maybe repackaging the ideas from your youth and telling the kids that they'll love it is not the way to make a successful franchise they'll show up for. maybe really engaging with the ideas that they're drawn to and giving those filmmakers and artists a voice, maybe they'll show up, see the Minecraft movie, see Obsession, see Backrooms, like trying to be like, hey, kids, do you love...
01:11:06
Speaker
You love Jurassic Park. It's like, well, my dad did and I watched it with my dad. But, you know, do I need seven of it? It's like right leaning into ah how how are young people engaging with stories cinematically? They're doing it on YouTube. um And so I highly recommend just checking out those shorts on YouTube. They're like really worth watching and and investing your time into.
01:11:33
Speaker
Yeah. And we don't have to get into it now, but I think there's a whole statement to be made about because of streaming and ah there being such a wealth of films, because listen, let's just be honest. There are some things that got made that aren't necessarily good, but you're not going to know that.
01:11:49
Speaker
So because of that, you kind of stick to the familiarity and you stick to the franchises and you stick to the people you know. But it's about taking that chance on a movie. And if the studios aren't taking the chance, then the consumer is not going to take the chance. So we have to, you know again, the ethos of this podcast, stay curious. You kind of have to open your eyes. like I'm so glad One Cut of the Dead was was recommended because yeah I don't know that I would have found it.
01:12:16
Speaker
you know, there's just no way I would have known that movie existed unless someone hates said, hey, look at this. So it it is going to take a little bit ah as our average Joe's that we are. We have to take it upon ourselves to look for things that are a little bit different, but we might be our interest might be piqued by them. And yeah, yeah just i going to have to do that.
01:12:36
Speaker
Stepping outside your comfort zone sometimes and just going, maybe I won't like it, but I'm going to, I'm going to give it a shot. And, and you may have a miss, but you may find something you love. And I think that's worth a few misses, you know?
01:12:49
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Um, all right. Well, that's our show this week. Uh, James, can you tell us where we find stuff to hit us up? Yes. All right. You can always email us at, so what are you into pod at gmail.com? You can find us on Tik TOK, Instagram, and YouTube at store into pod. And we'll respond to you ah in the comments and the emails, all the above.
01:13:15
Speaker
Um, So once again, this is James. That's Kurt. And as always, we like to tell you, stay curious. Stay curious.