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TGWDLM on the West End, Miss Holloween, Obsession & Mixtape
43 Plays17 days ago
Talking out loud about the stuff that won’t leave us alone.
This week we get into West End theatre, indie horror films, nostalgic video games, AI art, and the strange emotional reality of trying to make things for a living.
James talks about choreographing The Guy Who Didn’t Like Musicals for the West End and what changes when adapting a beloved cult musical for a completely new audience and scale.
Curt talks about working on the newly announced Starkid hybrid feature Miss Holloween and the strange in-between space of making independent art while existing adjacent to larger entertainment industry machinery.
This week’s Intos:
James brings:
• Obsession by Curry Barker
James talks about Curry Barker’s debut feature and how it functions both as an exploration of toxic male loneliness and a deconstruction of familiar coming-of-age movie tropes. We get into projection, emotional isolation, and the dangerous comfort of fantasy.
Curt brings:
• Mixtape
Curt talks about the walking simulator Mixtape and why it resonates emotionally despite not trying to literally recreate teenage life. Instead, it captures the feeling of nostalgia through impressionistic and emotionally heightened storytelling.
Along the way, the conversation spirals into AI-generated art, why increasingly polished artificial media can still feel emotionally hollow, and why struggling through the process of making messy human art may actually be the entire point.
We cover:
• TGWDLM on the West End
• Miss Holloween
• Toxic loneliness and projection
• Why nostalgia works emotionally
• AI and the future of creativity
• Red carpet embarrassment
• Why imperfect art still feels human
So… what are you into right now?
Email us:
sowhatareyouintopod@gmail.com
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
So what are you into? James, you just got back from London. Yeah, less than 24 hours ago. And let me tell you, still tired. Did you fly in yesterday? yesterday Yesterday. got in about 8.30. And for those who have ever done that flight to and fro, it's about anywhere from 10 to 11 hours. And on my way there to London...
00:00:22
Speaker
um I slept for eight of those hours. Wow. it was magical. I don't know how that's ever happened. You guys left on an evening flight, right? We left on an evening flight. And I i slept, like I said, slept for eight hours, got to London and it was like nice and sunny why where were we were staying. And so we got to enjoy it. And then from that day,
00:00:43
Speaker
I maybe slept cumulative four hours a night. um I never had normal sleep after that. um And so I'm I'm not functioning on all cylinders.
00:00:55
Speaker
um And especially now that I came back when we came back. Well, they're still there. I'm here now. But um I I slept for maybe two hours on the flight back and then I was just awake for the rest of it. And so um You're getting a very special version of me.
00:01:11
Speaker
i ever Sometimes I feel like when I travel a lot, I have this like, we've defied God kind of moment where you go, we shouldn't be doing this. This is like against nature. yes Like to travel that that distance and change your fundamental like inner clock. Something is not natural. We're we're playing God when we shouldn't. say I mean, the miracle of travel is amazing, but I think about this a lot.
00:01:39
Speaker
Oh, I was thinking um the fact that, okay, this is gonna sound so strange. Okay, so the fact that we as humans evolved in such a way that we were able to figure out the science and technology behind keeping a massive metal tube full of people, but also fuel and food and ah functioning toilets, and it can go across half of the globe, if not the whole thing, without you know going down every other hour.
00:02:06
Speaker
um What a marvel, and yet at the same time, Donald Trump is the president of the United States. like How how is like how was that our scale how Yeah, how can we be so, like, miraculously brilliant and also profoundly... Because thing is you can't escape... We can't escape how so how primal we are at some level either, you know? Yeah. We are still, like, based... Make fear-based decisions. We make decisions based on the idea of scarcity and resources. And it's like, I think we think we evolve beyond that, but it's like, not really. And I feel this way when I travel...
00:02:44
Speaker
where I go, my body is like, no, we're not supposed to be here. We're not supposed to be existing in this time zone right now. No. You also had it extra hard, I feel like. You, maybe Lauren as well, because you guys were having to be at the theater pretty early every day, I would imagine.
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah. Or at the venue to begin to like piece together the technical elements. Well, yeah. So ah at least, well, specifically rehearsals, because when we got to London, we actually started working with the understudies first.
00:03:11
Speaker
And so we would be at there in the morning with them, Lauren, Juliet, Matt, and i um And so we were there for extra four hours than the cast. So they at least got to sleep in while we were working with the understudies. And then we were pulling these, you know, 10 hour days.
00:03:26
Speaker
and let me tell you, by the, by the time tech finally finished, ah I was surviving on ah some really nice mocha coffees from a nearby coffee shop. But um and and Lauren, you know, bless her because, you know, she's also in the show. And at yeah, we we were hanging on by a thread, but ah luckily everything worked out and the show looks and sounds amazing. We've had some great audiences for the first week. I think as we're recording, they are finishing up their performance right now in London.
00:03:59
Speaker
um so after after a day off. So um if you have the chance to go in and see. What is the ah relaxed performance? I saw that. I wasn't sure what that was.
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, um by their standards of theater out there, I think what that means is first they're doing British Sign Language interpreters. That's one thing. Oh, cool. and I don't know if that's specific to a relaxed show, but also um the house lights are a little bit higher, you know, so people can come and go as they need to.
00:04:28
Speaker
Strobe effects are are lessened. So they're not as, you know, for anyone that experiences sensitivity to lights. um I think also like any loud sound cue is a little muted um just for, again, for sensitivity purposes. So does it really- Is that a common thing and on the West End or is that specific to this show or?
00:04:47
Speaker
From my understanding, that's a very common thing over there. I know we've had something similar to that in the States. um I think Lion King- did that or some what some of the Disney shows have done that before on Broadway. um and it But it's ah not every show, especially in America does it, but I think it's more common over in the West End.
00:05:09
Speaker
That's so interesting. Yeah, I saw that. Like I saw people talking about that and I was like, I don't know what that is. So yeah, interesting. Yeah. and um Being inclusive. That's all. It's not hard. Yeah. i was going to say, it's like, what a strange concept for Americans.
00:05:25
Speaker
What? her Inclusivity? No. What are you talking about? Does it inconvenience inconvenience us in any way and detract from our bottom line? Absolutely not. We won't do we won't do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But all that to say, um and also i just want to say anyone that was able to, you know that I saw hi or said hi to last week, um thank you. It was very nice to get to chat with some people. I took some photos with people. There was also a meet and greet last Friday that I got to speak to a few wonderful fans.
00:05:55
Speaker
um And ah just, yeah, in general, thank you to the London audiences. Y'all have been amazing thus far. um I can only assume the rest of the run will be great. I'll be watching from the States um and just keeping tabs on things. But it it was really a fantastic time being over there with that show. And I'm really glad we had the opportunity to do that for an audience that does not get to see our actual shows over there.
00:06:19
Speaker
um So yeah. Were there any, did you in as a choreographer and director, were there any, I don't know, did it feel like doing kind of when we do a show here or were there any fundamental differences or things that took out stood out to you as like, oh, this is really different or i I'm just curious, you know, never having done a show on the West End, like what, did you learn anything or did it feel like, hey, this is kind of what we know but we're now just changing geography. Yeah.
00:06:46
Speaker
it it's honestly the same um the only difference is rather than our equity breaks they would take tea breaks and they're 20 minutes long and that's just it just feels so much more proper and uh so that was really cool um but honestly no like the the whole setup was the same you know you do a load in for your tech process it was a very short tech process on us we only really had two and a half ish days but um But yeah, we really had a great time just putting it all together. Yeah, it was it was nothing unusual from what we've done here.
00:07:18
Speaker
ah yeah I think structurally and functionally, it's all the same stuff. I think it's interesting because I've not to diminish the impact of like doing something cool like that. But I think sometimes the perception of of being on the outside looking in, or i don't even, i don't know if the audience feels this way, but I know sometimes as a performer or an artist, you think like, Oh, if I was on Broadway, it would be, it would all be different. Or if I was in the West end, it would all be, it's, I think, you know, there's been times where I've thought to myself, you know,
00:07:49
Speaker
if I could just be in this place, it would all feel more... i don't know what. But the reality is kind of like what you do is what you do no matter where you do it. And I think that there's a real...
00:08:02
Speaker
That can be a big letdown, but also a great reminder that the stuff that you're doing, no matter where you are, can be just as meaningful. And it doesn't get exponentially more meaningful just because you change venues. And I don't know. I think about this a lot. When I first booked the first TV show i ever worked on, I thought... it's going to feel so different. I'm going to like, it's going to be more.
00:08:24
Speaker
And it was for like ah a day. And then all of a sudden you're like, okay, this is actually pretty normal actually. Yeah. um I think, I think what's different is your status as a celebrity. Right.
00:08:37
Speaker
That is the thing that's different because the work doesn't really change. you know The process is all the same. Even on a set, you're still going to hurry up and wait. You're going to be there for 10, 12, 14 hours. um But if you are Zendaya, how you're treated um ah around that set may be different from a day player.
00:08:55
Speaker
ah you know if you If you're um Leonardo DiCaprio, how you are treated when you're walking down the street, that's different. So I think I think it's everything outside of the actual work that changes.
00:09:08
Speaker
But um but in terms of being in that theater, it was the same thing. I was giving the same notes. We were having the same production meetings, um dealing with front of house staff, all that like every like there was nothing different from being on the West End stage as it was to the El Portal, you know, so.
00:09:23
Speaker
You make a great point about that was always a weird part of any set, but I especially like going back to glee times where you'd be on set and you'd be like, we're just all doing this together. Like we're all just kind of do, we're all pals. We're all hanging And it was that.
00:09:39
Speaker
but then yeah, you would go to an event or you'd be out and about. And then the way that, that press or, or public people treated certain people and how you, there is, never forget.
00:09:52
Speaker
i was in the red carpet. I have PTSD around red carpets because of this for the Glee live 3d premiere. Cause we did a concert movie in 3d. Yeah, you did. We, we walk. So Billy Eilish could run. Um,
00:10:07
Speaker
in those baggy jeans i actually heard her new concert is like pretty cool and i kind of want to go see it um james cameron directed it and she could they co-directed with james cameron which is crazy it's like in 3d yeah it's like in it's like a 3d high def high definition kind of like you're in a portal like stepping into her world sounds pretty cool like sounds like a cool visual experience but so that's why avatar isn't finished Exactly.
00:10:33
Speaker
He was hanging out with Billie Eilish on the road. But I remember on the red carpet at the event, you know, we had done the tour we'd all been buddies. It was genuinely, I had the best time on that tour. We all felt like comrades. we We're all really in the trenches And then on the red carpet, i like stepped out because everybody was shouting and I didn't know where I was supposed to go. And I accidentally like stepped too far over and I'll never forget. There was like 30 or 40 photographers that all just started screaming at me going like, get out of the way. lo no And I was like, Oh, and I looked over and, um, court over street who played Sam. I was like, I didn't realize that I'd actually stepped into his kind of shot and he was just sitting there like,
00:11:18
Speaker
You know, and like and he kind of like looked over at me like, yeah I don't know, it wasn't his place to do anything, but he kind of was like, and I was like, and, you know, he and I had both tested for that role that he had booked and he got it, which is totally fine. But I just remember thinking like, wow, there are worlds apart. We we are worlds apart. Yes. That's so wait. can can i share Can I also share a red carpet story? Actually my first one, it happened a couple weeks ago. So Paul and I went to the premiere for the season series finale of hacks.
00:11:51
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yeah. We had the premiere party. And so ah because Paul's infinitely more famous than I am um he's invited. And so they know he's through dropout and I'm his plus one. So ah how, it how it works is they have everyone that is in, that is invited to the premiere. you were in a specific line to get photos. And so we're in the line and yeah ah we're just, I realized we're in a line with like some notable people, but like we're not the top of the list, whatever. But then I noticed one of the property brothers is behind me.
00:12:22
Speaker
Do I know which one? Not at all. Cause I, they're twins. So let's say PB one. Okay. So PB one. Yes. He's behind me. And this is how I knew, this is how I know my place in life. We're all in line together. And then someone that clearly is working the event looks over in our direction, points at PB1, runs over to talk to someone. And then you see an assistant come by and say, oh, ah please just come with us. And heat they pull him to the front of the line.
00:12:49
Speaker
yeah And it was like, oh man. So we're not that famous yet. But we still got our Getty image photo. So I've i've i've at least got that under my belt now. It's such a strange thing because you want to be like, it's about the work.
00:13:02
Speaker
The work is what matters. And I do believe this. But when you're in those situations, you're like, huh, interesting. yeah You suddenly realize the divide and and and who people find interesting and yeah how quickly you just... I've been at parties and events where I'll be talking to somebody and then the other person walks in that everyone's there for. and It'll be like mid-conversation and they'll be like, oh.
00:13:28
Speaker
You're like...
00:13:31
Speaker
It's like, you know what? I was done with that thought. I i didn't need to i do need to continue that. Yeah, I'm i'm good. Thank you so much. ah let me go Here, i'll take I'll take some of those croutons from that salad. Thank you. Yes, exactly.
00:13:44
Speaker
Yes. oh um Yeah, so it's been cool. um Wait, so you've had some interesting news come up. ah Yeah. Star Kid. Well, first of all, there's the the Kickstarter is now fully funded for Tomb Quest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is great. So congratulations. Which is, you know, hey, it's a new show, new new property. So, you know, there's always a little more of a grind, I think, getting people to go, hey, will you take a risk on a new thing? But yeah, we we've hit the we have about a week and a half left. So we'll we'll see how it goes.
00:14:14
Speaker
um So first of all, congratulations on that. And then second, they announced this big project that you and Kim specifically have been working on. is now ah announced to the public. Want to talk more about that?
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah. We're making, ah it's called Miss Halloween. um And this is something Kim and I, it's so weird because we've been working on it for like seven months, but we haven't, it hasn't been in a state to talk about it or put it out there. It's not even done yet. And so um they announced it during the stream on Saturday, but yeah, Yeah, this is what I've been working. This is mostly what I've been spending my time on since December, which again, it's a strange thing to be spending so much time on something. And I think so I struggle in in the creator economy where sharing everything and constantly having cool stuff to talk about kind of is tied to your perception of success, which I don't necessarily, I don't sort of put my stock in that, but but there is a reality to,
00:15:15
Speaker
how much cool stuff you're sharing and is in relationship to how much people are engaging and how much people deem you to be somebody that's whatever. So it's strange when you're working on something and you're just kind of like in secret toiling away at it. yeah um But now it's out there. And yeah, this is a wildly ambitious thing. It is a feature length, essentially episode of Nightmare Time. There are multiple episodes of Nightmare Time that James and I have both been in um that are, would I think, would hope to be made. This is sort of a concept to say, can we make it in in a new way? Is it possible to elevate the medium from the COVID day Zoom format
00:15:57
Speaker
But we're also not making a feature film like we're not, you know, the if we tried to shoot the script literally, it would be like a 20 million dollar movie. So we are like trying to do something cinematic, but still rooted and grounded in a very small space. We're shooting it literally all here in my studio.
00:16:19
Speaker
um But we're shooting it like a film so there's actual coverage. and that hopefully the idea is not just to impress people with, ooh, it's a movie, but more like the characters are very present and real and alive and look more three-dimensional than they ever have. But we still have the narration. We still have the the sort of storytelling gathered around the campfire. Let me tell you a story kind of components to it. But...
00:16:47
Speaker
It going to be awesome when we finish it. It is a lot of work. I would be lying if I didn't say it is ah it is kind of challenging us in every way right now. um It's a good challenge and I feel very lucky and I'm very grateful that we got the opportunity to be entrusted to to try to helm something like that. But...
00:17:08
Speaker
It is. is' It's hard. It's a lot. It's a lot. Would you say that? um what Well, actually, I'll ask, what are your inspirations for how you have gone about filming this and shooting this? Obviously, we're using you know we're we're amplifying the Zoom format. it's going to be you know We're elevating from that stance. But how how have you approached thus far telling this story? Is it is it more you? Is it a little bit a Nick? Is it everybody? like how How have you gone about that?
00:17:36
Speaker
It's, man, it's really just been Kim and I. I mean, Nick and Matt definitely gave us some, they they kind of put it all in the script, which is great. Like, they you know, they write very specific and very, especially this script, it feels like the narration is so...
00:17:54
Speaker
almost like novel-like, that's so descriptive and so crazy and wild. So you kind of go, great, this is this is the source. I just need to kind of reference that.
00:18:06
Speaker
ah there i i could not find anything else that exists like this. I could be wrong. But i I genuinely did a ton of research going like, has anybody ever made anything like this? And not really that I can find. So, so much of it so much of it is us going, does this work? Like, I actually had a i had a big breakthrough last week when I was asked to cut a trailer together for the announcement.
00:18:38
Speaker
And I hadn't really been cutting any footage. I'd just been filming footage. And so I was like, all right, I guess I got to cut something together. And I had this epiphany where I was using close-up shots of Kim. And then I was like, oh, I can put i can put her close-up, but then I can do a layer of other video over her. And i can I can let those two almost blend. And all of a sudden I was like, oh, interesting.
00:19:03
Speaker
So I could be showing someone's emotional POV. but I could also then show other things and it kind of helped me go, oh, maybe that's how we can cut together some of these more fantastical sequences where I can't literally show everything that's being described, but I could like hone in on a character's eyes and then do flashes of things. And then the narration over that sort of does the rest of the legwork.
00:19:30
Speaker
So that, is so it's kind of this, we're kind of trying to evolve it. And the reason I'm really, hopeful is that my hope is a that it's awesome and that people like it but also that it becomes a new medium that that was started that we could do other stories that we aren't always having to do these big obviously like the the shows are great and like that's the bread and butter and it's awesome but that it opens up the door to like do really interesting cinematic stuff. That's still kind of theatrical, but still has like a video element that could be done in a more contained space. um So I feel like we're trying to kind of figure out what the medium is.
00:20:10
Speaker
um Yeah, because it's all shot on this like black void. So it's kind of like a black box. But and then it's and it's also crazy, too, because it's like, what do you show that's literal? When do you let the narration just take care of it? There's some things where you're the narration is so good. And I'm like, oh, if we could show that. But then we're like, how are we going to show that? How going so that, you know, we're building some sort of puppet stuff and there's some stuff like that. But then there's stuff where I go we're just going to let the narrator say that. We're just going to let him say this crazy thing. Cause you go, that's a, that's a $200,000 VFX shot that I, I don't know how to do. Right. Like we just don't have the money to do it. And that's, and that's the reality of it, you know?
00:20:55
Speaker
um yeah But I got to give you guys so much credit. That's so fun. And you're taking a – because what it reminds me of is radio plays. you know Exactly. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And those are inherently theatrical because the listener is only using their imagination with the narration from the cast. And ah I think what you guys are – I've seen a little bit. You've shown me very small snippets of things. But it's really exciting that you are trying something new. And trying the thing about trying is that you will – ah something will be born out of that, you know, whether it's a mistake or you're saying, hey, there's a new, like you said, you were cutting that trailer and all sudden you figure it out a new way you could articulate some of the scenes. And I think that's what's so brilliant about revisiting something after you've done it.
00:21:37
Speaker
i mean, that's basically what happened with Guy. I've seen some fans who have now purchased the pro shot of the of the remount and they've asked, oh, why why was this change? Why was that? And it's like, well, Time passes and as artists, you grow and your perspective changes. So you might look at a scene a little bit differently and say, hey, I think there's a different way. Whether it's better is up to you know who's viewing it. Totally subjective. Yeah. but ah But if there's a new way to try something, why not go for it? And um so I'm really glad you ah you two have taken the initiative to find ah some fun ways to go about this. I'm really excited to see it.
00:22:11
Speaker
I love what you said about the experimentation because I think something, the older I get, the more I'm becoming okay with
00:22:21
Speaker
knowing sometimes it was still worth it, even if it didn't result in a thing that people liked more. um That's always scary. it's like when you're making something and you want people to love it, you want people to like love every choice that went into it and really get something from it. And so when you see somebody critique it and go, Oh, this didn't work or I didn't like this.
00:22:42
Speaker
that used to get to me like, oh man, I shouldn't, I should have seen that somebody wouldn't have liked that. And I should And now the older I get, the more I'm like, You really don't know.
00:22:53
Speaker
you don't even really know if you'll like it until you go to like Kim and I have had so many conversations and arguments um about like certain ways to to achieve certain things. like We've had this. This is going to be such and a boring thing to share, but whatever.
00:23:14
Speaker
we've been going back and forth as to what camera to shoot certain things on because we have this weird dilemma where one camera allows me to move very quickly and efficiently in shooting but doesn't have as much dynamic range and information and then it requires way more color grading on the back end the other camera has way more dynamic range but it's a little bit more challenging to shoot so we're always like well yeah and i'm looking at these pieces of footage and we're But at you just go, you know what? We just have to try something. And it is true. Like you get to the end of a project and you might look back and go, you know what?
00:23:50
Speaker
Something else might've worked better, but you don't really know that until you do it and you have to kind of do it to see. And I, there's something really nice about where we get to work and in these smaller, <unk>m not trying to diminish the stuff that we do, but you know, we are not beholden currently,
00:24:06
Speaker
in a lot of these projects to Broadway producers or studio, whatever we're just, just kind of us and checking in with our collaborators and being like, everyone good. That's about it. yeah There's something I'm trying to, to, uh,
00:24:21
Speaker
take advantage of that opportunity to be experimental because you don't, a lot of times if you get hired to do something at a bigger level, you don't get to be experimental. You're expected to deliver exactly what somebody wants.
00:24:34
Speaker
And so, um, but it's, you know, but that can be really scary because you're like, don't know if it's, I don't know it's going to work. I don't know. Yeah. Um, but you just have to go with it and you, One thing I'm realizing too is that, ah and I understand we have a very passionate fan base in Starkid, but that being said, ah we are not um we are not staff on Starkid. So the things that we are doing, whether we're directors, choreographers, directors,
00:25:02
Speaker
We, ah we're just doing it because we want to, and we we want to be involved in that, and that's, and that's who we are. But ah ultimately, like Kurt, you may do something like this on a bigger scale with a different company, with a different place. And so it's great to cultivate these skills now.
00:25:16
Speaker
So you can take those talents elsewhere. And the same, like, I just have some aspirations to take some of the things I've been doing lately and, ah And just do them in a non-StarKid setting. so ah And I have been doing that this year, actually. So ah just know that you know as we're trying these new things, if you're an avid StarKid watcher, thank you for being so loyal. ah you know Just be on the ride with us as we explore these things and try new methods of of storytelling, because who knows where that leads all of us later on down the line.
00:25:47
Speaker
It is crazy too how so many of the things, it's always, it's why it's good to keep perspective on where you've come from, how far you've come, because so many of the things now that seem so obvious and intuitive were only the result of spending the last 15 years doing stuff for I you do these like film camps with youth, young actors or content for certain, whatever, like all that stuff, which I don't want I've graduated past, but at the time I was like, I want to get to bigger, or better stuff.
00:26:20
Speaker
All that stuff was so valuable and having a baseline set of skills, just like you taking a show to the West end. You're like, I've been doing this for so long that I have these competent skills that, To just be, you know, and so it's, it's like a great reminder. You're always going to feel like there's more you want, you could do or want to do. And it's, and there probably is, but I'm trying to learn that balance of being like content with like, this is where I'm at right now.
00:26:47
Speaker
And this is the best that I can do. I want to push myself. I want to try things, but also it doesn't always work, but that's kind of the magic is trying things. And and then you learn what doesn't work. And then you, the next time around, you, you know what you want to do better, you know? Absolutely. Yeah.
00:27:03
Speaker
I mean, we always say stay curious. And I think that applies to what you watch, read, listen to But I think also in your own creativity, like stay curious about new ways to do things, new ways to think about things, new ways to conceptualize how to bring something to having other collaborators and their voices in the room. Like that's, you never want to get stuck in rigid, you know?
00:27:28
Speaker
Yeah. That's actually a great segue to the thing that I'm into this week. um So I wait, I got to let you ask the question. That's our, that's a formal way of doing it. James, what are you into?
00:27:41
Speaker
I am so into the movie Obsession that just came out recently. um So first of all, if anyone doesn't know, this is a horror movie that just released last week. It's directed and written by Curry Barker, who I did not know of prior to this movie.
00:27:57
Speaker
um Also because I'm social media illiterate and there's just people that have been making content and things for years and I just did not know this. But ah essentially this movie is about a guy who... um has ah a crush on this girl and his friend group, and he happens to buy this toy. Well, actually, it's more more so a stick called the One Wish Willow. ands like ah It's like almost like a gag gift you'd buy at like a a ah gadget store gift store. Yeah. Yeah. yeah um And so he uses his one wish to that Nikki, the girl, is he loves him more than anything else in the world. And then what starts is this very fun take on the monkey's paw story that we probably all heard when we were in school. um And it's showing...
00:28:48
Speaker
the um the pitfalls of romantic obsession, but also, what and this is this is the term that I loved about this, it also bears, is the male protagonist's name, and it shows just how depraved he is as you as the movie goes on, because it's not like any one person is doing the right thing here.
00:29:10
Speaker
and And that's the turn that I love about this movie. um That being said, i have to immediately, I'm going to say her name incorrectly, but is it Indy Navarro? Is that her name? I believe so.
00:29:21
Speaker
ah She gave one of the best horror performances I have seen in a very long time. um and it's And it's something as simple as the way she weaponizes a smile, the way she screams, the way her body moves. it is ah For such a young actress, she is very, very good in this. um ah So in terms of just the technical aspects of that movie, I just want to say like that is probably one of my standout films so far of 2026. Highly recommend for anybody that was interested in it and hasn't seen it yet. You should go see this movie. um But before I get into my other point, Kurt, I just want to I know you saw it too. Any, any thoughts about it?
00:29:59
Speaker
It's my favorite film of the year so far. I, I, this film sent me into a crisis mode of being like, why was I not doing sketch comedy on TikTok when 21? And why did i not direct a feature that this good at 25?
00:30:14
Speaker
But that is neither here nor there. um i I think this movie is incredible. It was made for a million dollars. It's already made something like $20 million, dollars which, you know, why is that significant? Because a million dollars in money and money for movies is nothing. I think they took the such a... think the biggest takeaway for me is I see a lot of films where, especially on a small scale, they're trying to pack... They're trying to sort of...
00:30:43
Speaker
do Don't pay attention to how small the budget is. Look at the concept. It's so crazy. it's so There's so much complexity in all these things. This movie to me is the filmmaking essential.
00:30:55
Speaker
Essential filmmaking in that they go, it's a simple premise. It's a dumb premise even. What if a wish came true? Ridiculous. We're going to take that to its absolute furthest possible conclusion.
00:31:09
Speaker
You know the rules. which comes true. That's it. And it's so simple. It's so clear. I don't have to be like, what? Why? and they did Well, because ah these it's a lore.
00:31:21
Speaker
It hints at lore. It hints at... But it goes, here's the premise. What do if you could make somebody love you more than anything? What would that look like? um And I also, yeah, to your point too, what I really took away from it... Hey, the other thing too I would say is it's very funny.
00:31:38
Speaker
Actually, I kept thinking while watching this, I was like, this feels like... not to make it too stark and adjacent, but I was like, this feels like a nightmare time episode, like very much like this self-contained little world where everything is going to go completely off the rails. Um, but I love what you said about this character in bear in contrast to, Nikki, who is the, the, the lead, the the female protagonist, um,
00:32:06
Speaker
I thought this movie was very insightful without being preachy about the sort of insidiousness of the nice guy, Like, I'm just a nice guy and no one likes me Like taking that sort of state of mind, which I think is so prevalent right now. Well, maybe, maybe it's always prevalent, but I feel like it's especially encouraged and weaponized. You know, we see it with the, just the sort of incel movement. We see it with, with just the manosphere of it all. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:39
Speaker
Getting to the heart of that, of this person who's like, why won't the girl I like like me? um ah The actor who plays that character, Bear, I think he does it a really wonderful job of he is sympathetic enough. And then I'm like, I get it. I know what that feels like to want something so bad.
00:32:57
Speaker
But over the course of the movie, he makes, he keeps sort of, i think, checking out his own moral responsibility in the whole thing being like, well I'm just a nice guy. I'm a nice guy. And you see that just sort of being nice and not being honest and not being forthright with what you think and feel and being honest with people.
00:33:20
Speaker
actually can lead to a really toxic, dangerous place. Obviously, goes to a crazy, over-the-top place with it. i But it does happen. No, go ahead. Go ahead. No, finish the thought. I just thought it was a really insightful way to discuss, you know, you hear the you hear thrown around, the epidemic of male loneliness.
00:33:40
Speaker
And it's so often the thrown and like men are so lonely and I'm not dismissing mental health and and men. I mean, that's so vital and so important, but I liked the fact that this movie was like, sometimes you just need to like put yourself out there and be honest and have some guts to like have, tell people how you feel and what you think. And if you just act like the world will never get you,
00:34:03
Speaker
it will only lead you to making terrible choices that actually end up hurting the people you claim to love. I just thought that was such a cool thing wrapped in this crazy over-the-top horror premise. Yes, absolutely. because like there's Listen, this isn't a new concept, but a lot of the plot moves in the way that it does because people aren't forthright with what they're saying. so that that does that does happen a lot. But the other thing, and I guess we should put a spoiler warning right here, and then I'll say when the spoiler is over. But the the real turn of this movie, my favorite scene, is where um Nikki is asleep. And so I guess through this spell or whatever, her real self is is now conscious, and she's trying to reach out to him and say, hey, kill me.
00:34:47
Speaker
The other version of me is asleep. And he says in response, what's so bad with about being with me? Like that is such a great way to exemplify why what he's doing is so selfish and wrong and how he is not a wholly good person, but he is a a hurt human being who is using that hurt to hold another person captive just so that he he thinks he's the victim. Yes, but she is. It's funny. It's she is the antagonist, quote unquote. But the horror that she's experiencing is like far worse. Like actually Nikki, our Nikki who he's theoretically in love with, she is going through the worst kind of horror. We are in Bear's POV, but he's like, I'm the victim here and this is all happening to me. And it's like, no, you're kind of willingly subjecting the girl you say you love to this hellish nightmare that she cannot get out of. You you brought up the actress who plays her.
00:35:49
Speaker
just like, I know a lot of people have been saying this, but genuinely I'm like star making turn. I thought she was astonishingly terrifying, creepy, scary, funny, you know, making me as the like audience be like,
00:36:08
Speaker
yeah, I think I could make this work. You know, like, like oh wow. She like she just working the charm of this entity who can say the thing that can make you at your most pathetic feel loved. And then also channeling these, these glimmers of pain of the fact that she, she, her real self is somewhere in there.
00:36:31
Speaker
extraordinary performance extraordinary so good I was just like this is the best thing I've seen all year yes god I loved it I loved it all right so that's the end of the spoiler part so now then what I want to add to that is is to that point so we got these amazing performances the story is really fun and I started thinking about the fact that you know I I i will say that I enjoy cerebral horror I'm not as much of a gory person like i I don't I can't really watch things like terrifier and enjoy them um But I loved Obsession.
00:37:03
Speaker
But I also love last year, Weapons. I loved Get Out. And the three things those movies have in common is they're all written by comedy people. And there's a lot of conversation these last few years, I'd say over the last like 10, 15-ish years.
00:37:17
Speaker
about the fact that really successful, well-done horror movies have been written by comedians. And some people attribute it to, you know, comedians have to understand timing and pacing because that's how a joke lands. Same thing with, um you know, maybe kills have to hit a certain point. um So I'm wondering, like, you know, what are your thoughts on this this phenomenon of,
00:37:39
Speaker
strong comedians making strong horror movie writers as and directors as well. Because um even something like Barbarian, um I really enjoy too. you know like So I'm just like, I'm watching these movies and I'm just saying like, oh wow, so these comedians are really starting this like the new tide of horror.
00:37:58
Speaker
And they're kind of the standard bearers, at least for me, because again, I i can't really do the ah like Saw and Hostel. Those don't, I'm not good for those. I have to least sleep with the lights on after that.
00:38:10
Speaker
I mean, yeah, Zach Kregor, he came from widest kids you know. So, I mean, he's from a sketch comedy background. I i think multifaceted. I mean, what you said i think is so true. I think that understanding timing and rhythm is – there's a very similar overlap. I also think, too, horror is this space that – it's one of the few spaces where people can break in without having to sort of have this sort of prestige um sort of credits to even be given access to do it. So horror becomes a path, I think, for a lot of people who,
00:38:43
Speaker
want to make something new and original. And so, you know, it just, it's a very big sandbox. The other thing I would say is I think comedy and horror share the idea of taking something to its furthest logical conclusion.
00:38:57
Speaker
Like, you know, if you're doing improv, you're doing comedy, it's like, you're always trying to raise the stakes and always trying to go, what's the next, how do we, how do we build off of that? How do we go to the next level, next level? And I feel like there's a lot of overlap there with horror of like taking a premise and then building off of it and saying, okay, if that's true, then what else is true? And then in a logical way, building to its most, I cannot believe they went there conclusion. um Yeah, that's, it's, it's, it's interesting. I don't know if there's like a one exact,
00:39:26
Speaker
it specific thing but I think it's kind of an overlap of a lot of those things ah yeah maybe the maybe the big one is that comedy and horror also both seek to had a friend of mine who's a wonderful director he directed all the episodes of Buffering I did years ago and he would always talk about comedy needs to be visceral.
00:39:45
Speaker
Like the objective of a comedy is to cause a physical reaction in somebody. To get someone to laugh means they are not just passively watching a thing and taking it in. They are having a physical reaction to what's happening. And I think horror is the same. It's like, I want someone to be physically tense, to be physically reactive to the thing. And so I think there's also an objective in going, how do I make something that... that reaches out and affects somebody in a physical way, not just in an abstract kind of intellectual way. But do you have any other thoughts on like what that overlap might be?
00:40:18
Speaker
Well, because what we were talking about earlier, you know, with new perspectives and experimenting, and I do feel like comedy, I'm not saying that comedy was never in horror before, but I do feel like there's a certain... element of campiness, like we're talking like in the 80s horror movies, like even I'd even say like Freddy Krueger has an element of campiness in in its ah in its delivery. um Because you're watching usually it's like, you know, these horny teens, it's and um they get slashed and really, you know, surprising ways. And I think we've now moved to a a more realistic yet.
00:40:51
Speaker
Maybe I'll say hyper realistic way of doing it. um Because I'll take, for instance, the scene um in Weapons with the with the gay couple. It starts with a shot of the tray and seven hot dogs, which is just so absurd because who's eating that many hot dogs? But like you're already laughing with that image in your mind. And then by the end of that scene, it's gone gone a complete 180. So like it takes you on this emotional journey from beginning to the end of that scene. And you're you're right. It's it's it's like, how do we how do we catch your attention in the beginning and then keep you invested through the end of that? um And yeah I think, yeah, comedians just have to have a sense of rhythm and timing and and intention that, at least with these three movies that I was talking about today, really worked. like Get Out is probably one of my favorite theater experiences.
00:41:40
Speaker
Um, and there are elements of, uh, and that one is, that doesn't, that doesn't even deal with monsters. It's way more realistic than it is with anything else. But the fact that there were so many realistic, funny jokes that came out of that, but then as spec, especially for anyone, uh, that is black in America, so many things that are horrific because they actually have happened, or, you know, they've happened to a person and again, taking them to their, their farthest, um, point of potential in, uh, in reality.
00:42:08
Speaker
um yeah, I've really enjoyed this trend of comedians getting into horror and um I'm really excited to see where this goes, especially like, yeah, um with the success of Obsession, I can only assume Curry Barker is going to be making more stuff. um So yeah, this is this is really great and I'm very happy to see something like this succeed. It's also crazy because I had never, I wasn't familiar with him as well. And, um, I looked up just some of his sketch comedy and it's like him and his friends, the guy who plays his buddy and in the movie is in it. and you know, in so many ways it, it,
00:42:42
Speaker
Again, it did kind of blow my mind of like, oh my God, he's only 25 and he's doing this. What am I doing? But it also was really encouraging of like, oh, this is very much what we do. It's like, oh, this is friends getting together, making a thing and and then continuing to make stuff. And I'm like, that's so cool. Like, that's so cool to see that evolution of... friends continuing to make things together and it not just suddenly being like this one auteur director branched out on his own and be it's like no like the whole team was just the people he knew and i that's really cool to be as well have you heard about this movie this upcoming movie back rooms
00:43:18
Speaker
m Oh, have I? I have my early access tickets ready to go. Do you really? Okay. All right. Oh yeah. i I cannot wait for it. i was to say Kane Parsons, um, 20 years old. He's only 20 years old. It's crazy. And he started doing stuff on, on YouTube and blender, which is just incredible. You know, what I will say is what's so inspiring. Blender is kind of, um, a 3d compositing software. So a lot of the stuff he did initially, he was building virtual spaces, um
00:43:50
Speaker
creating these this labyrinth of back rooms and that's where he created all the lore and everything. um What's so cool about it to me is you go genuinely the tools are there.
00:44:00
Speaker
like The tools are there in a way that they just have never been before. That can be a little daunting because everyone's doing it But the threshold of how many people have access to the tools versus how many people actually pick up a tool and use it is kind of you It's a lot less people than you would think it is. And so what's encouraging to me is even, even as I'm making like this Miss Halloween project, you go every tool that I need to make this is available. It's out there. It's possible. I just have to learn it and do tutorials on it and figure it out. And, and, and a lot of times it's like, going to try this and do that. And, and the fact that 25 and 20,
00:44:47
Speaker
it's it's just a reminder to me that like you can kind of make anything that you want. Now finding an audience and and all that, that's that's a challenge and that's that's difficult. But um i actually do think it's pretty freaking cool.
00:45:00
Speaker
Like if you have an idea, there's probably a way to get it made. It doesn't involve a prompt in AI. Like that that involves you actually yeah getting things dirty and doing the thing, you know?
00:45:12
Speaker
ah Speaking of AI, I just have to point out something. A video came across my feed today And it was saying that somehow Will Smith eating pasta is now the measuring stick of how far AI has come. And it showed how in the last four years, videos of Will Smith specifically eating pasta have gone from really terrible to like, oh, okay, at least you fix that part.
00:45:32
Speaker
This looks a little bit better too. I guess this year as a video, and I didn't actually watch the video because I don't want them knowing that I did that. But It actually, unfortunately, looks really good.
00:45:44
Speaker
And I feel like we're getting to this point where it's going to become very indistinguishable from us just like actually taking cinematic quality videos. So I don't know how... And I gotta say, I'm getting kind of... i don't know. it's It is getting hard to tell when some stuff is just fake.
00:46:05
Speaker
yeah I love that you brought that up because I think it's important that we... stop just stop judging AI by saying, oh, it looks like crap. Because I think this has been the argument, like, well, looks like garbage.
00:46:18
Speaker
yeah My thing is, it's not going to look like garbage. It often doesn't. And so the question really is, what kind of work do you want to make?
00:46:30
Speaker
Do you, and add there's a, somebody listen to in the film cast, Jeff Cannata often says this, which is like, the mess of making something is the point.
00:46:41
Speaker
And I think that's what I try to cling to is I go, yeah, probably there's a world where I can type in a prompt and get a thing that you probably wouldn't be able to tell.
00:46:52
Speaker
But I know that for me, the creed the creative, the journey of creativity is about having the messiness. Like if I could have... chat GPT prompt me a script. I, maybe I could do that, but I think Seth Rogen talked about this recently where he's like, then you're not really a writer. You're just trying to get to the, ah the end result of writing versus like writing is about going. It's like, you could maybe prompt Claude to be like,
00:47:21
Speaker
choreograph my next show. it's like part of the joy is like going, what do I want to do? And maybe I did like, that is the joy. And I think that's what a lot of the like tech people miss. These are like, I just did it with a prompt. And you're like, cool. The, the fun is, is figuring it out. And I think,
00:47:40
Speaker
Yeah, we need to, ah maybe that's the important thing to talk about because I think in the next, the coming years, I just, I think it's going to be indistinguishable. There's still a lot of AI crap out there. Like, don't get me wrong. There's still stuff that I see that I go that looks awful.
00:47:54
Speaker
But there is stuff that I see where I go, yeah, I wouldn't know necessarily. So it has to be about what you as the artist, like what do you, how do you want to work? You know? Yeah. Art is supposed to be messy. Like I think we're, people forget that like it's supposed to look imperfect. They're supposed to be flaws because that's what makes it unique. I, my biggest gripe is when I see, see ah people, you know, all those people will sitting in their kitchen counters and singing acapella and they all auto tune their stuff. All of them. All of them. And it's and it's so sickening to me because like then none of your voices are distinguishable and all of you sound boring.
00:48:30
Speaker
i don't like If everyone just has this clear tone, there's no character to that. all At that point, all you can do is just belt really high, which is great for some people. But to me, I'm like, great. I've heard 10 other people do that in the last four swipes of me going up my feed. So I preferred that we had some individuality, some character, some dynamics and instead of this like perfect cookie cutter.
00:48:53
Speaker
um so i'm specifically arguing about music right now. But yeah, I just can't stand seeing that. I am so, this is why like I feel really hopeful about the future of theater, especially because as as things get flattened and sort of molded into this perfect plastic, you cannot see the cracks, everything is just kind of the sheen to it.
00:49:17
Speaker
I actually think theater, live theater and events with live people are going to become more valuable to audiences because it is going to be one of the few places you can turn and go watch somebody do something that has a texture to it, that has a messiness to it. So even though I know it's it's hard out there for artists and arts funding and there's kind of this doom and gloom of ai is going to come for us all.
00:49:44
Speaker
I kind of am of the mindset that actually making things on a small scale that are very human are going to be such a balm for so many people who are going to be like, oh my God, is there something real? Can I get something real? And like I think theater is actually going to become even more valuable because you're going to there's a real person.
00:50:02
Speaker
yeah Oh, they're really there. Wow. There they are singing for real. Right. Yeah. Cause he, cause I'm the same. i you know, it's so funny with going back to the miss Halloween thing. I've had to remind myself of this cause there's been shots where I'm like, the blacks aren't perfectly black and the, ah i need to, in the color. and And then I was like, you know what?
00:50:20
Speaker
It's not about it being perfect. It's about this was the vision. And so I even have to catch myself. It's easy to fall into that trap of like, we could always be better. could always be higher res. It could always be ah better lighting, better color, better sound, better. And I go, wait a minute. Better is not, that's not the objective or me. More creative is the objective, not better, better, better, better.
00:50:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes all you need is just a good old fashioned plain black coffee and that's okay. Yeah. um All right.
00:50:55
Speaker
I'm done with my spiel. Kurt, what are you into this week? This week I am into a video game that... He's barely a video game, so I want to just be real clear about that up front for any gamers out there. This has caused some controversy online in the last week or two. Is it a game? Is it not a game? um And that is because this game, it's called Mixtape.
00:51:19
Speaker
The game is a sort of a walking simulator in that you are not winning this game. You are not solving the game. You're not beating the game.
00:51:31
Speaker
You are moving through the game. you have some controls. you you get to You get to do certain things and manipulate certain things, but there's no like objective. There's no points. There's no leveling up your character. um the The game is about this group of three friends takes place at the turn of the century, like 1999.
00:51:50
Speaker
she has ah She has a CD player that she's burned like a custom mixtape. And so the whole game is set to these c incredible songs. I mean, all kind of iconic music from from a different range of time period, 70s, 90s, like all over And you were going through these experiences very like John Hughes adjacent, which is funny because obsession in so many ways is kind of a deconstruction of the John Hughes. Like, what if the girl just really liked me? And it's like, let's take that apart. So this is kind of a nostalgic look at that. But the the the game is very coming of age, teenage-like.
00:52:27
Speaker
ah um They've all graduated from high school. And basically this is the last day in a small town before our lead protagonist is going to head to the big city to try to become, I think like a music producer is her goal. She's really passionate about producing and curation. and so that's kind of what drives the soundtrack of the game.
00:52:46
Speaker
Why i think this game is so special is it it did something for me that I've never experienced in a game, which is taps into not the literal things of, of the last day in your small town before you leave, but the feeling, the feeling of what it was like to be there and taking that to a very surreal and dreamlike place as an example. And I'll include some footage of this in, um in the episode, but like there's this moment where they, they have like a,
00:53:21
Speaker
They all go on a road trip outside of town to like a beautiful kind of open field and they're all just kind of like hanging out. And as they're hanging out and the music swells and the wind picks up, your character just starts to fly and you're floating above the trees and through the grass. And it's not, the game is not saying this character is super powered. The game is saying, do you remember that feeling with your friends and your future was ahead of you and you were thinking about all the incredible things you were going to go do and everything was possible and it was a warm day and the wind was blowing and you'd, it's like it, it takes these emotional and visceral feelings and it lets you play that. This really beautiful sequence where she goes to kind of pretty difficult situation with a friend and there's kind of a falling out and the character is like listening on her headphones and she's like floating backwards in black and white and she's just kind of floating above everything and in the physics of the game are such that like you can enter it. If you bump into a table, it like flips up and then everything the table goes flying into the air and, you know, Again, it's very non-literal, but it feels like know what this is. I know what the feeling of this is. I know the sensation of this. There's sequence where you toilet paper the principal's house and you're like deciding where to throw it. The critique of the game has been, it's not really a game. you don't even, you just basically, you just, and I go, if that's what you're looking for, this is not the game for you.
00:54:51
Speaker
But if you're looking for a story that you can, it it does what It does what a film does in that it allows me to live in the experience of these characters and not overly gamify it. But it does what only a video game does, which allows me to decide where to look and decide when to do things and to activate it. So it feels like...
00:55:13
Speaker
this really cool mix of what I love about movies, but with stuff that only video games can offer. It's beautiful. It's it's done in that kind of across the Spider-Verse art style.
00:55:25
Speaker
The artwork is blush. The soundtrack is amazing. I played through it in about four four hours, five hours. So it's not a long game. It was 20 bucks. So, you know, it's not like cheap, but also not like $70 like a lot of the big AAA titles. Um, man, it just, and it actually gave me a whole lot of inspiration, um in thinking about certain sequences of, of this other film project I'm trying to get off the ground. And it's very much about teens kind of in a small tent. And I was like, Oh my God, it's tapping into that just memory and saying, what if memory becomes a playable idea? So I just thought it was great. There's ah one of my favorite moments was you're playing, you're playing softball,
00:56:08
Speaker
And you're like, you know, there's a bunch of little mini games in the game. and You're like hitting a ball and you're trying to get used to it. And you're like, and you're not quite getting it at first. And then the first time you connect, it's like the world gets a little bit brighter. And then you go, okay, okay. And then and then you connect again. And then all of a sudden from the like ground, like,
00:56:28
Speaker
ah you're in a baseball diamond on like a high school field, like the ground breaks open and then like professional league baseball stands sprout out of the ground and then you hit another ball and then they grow and then then then the lights come on and you hit another ball and then the the um the song touch, the you got the touch. turn du And then it's like, and here we are in the ninth inning and you go, I've had this moment. I've played baseball with myself and imagine,
00:56:57
Speaker
The crowd goes wild. It's like they give you that sensation of the imagination of being young and having your entire life in front of you. It's such a cool, it's such a cool game. So it feels really special, really different, really off the beaten path, really fresh.
00:57:15
Speaker
I've never played a game like it before. So that's, um that's mixtape. I think it's really cool. That is cool. It's interesting that people are – well, never mind. The internet is always full of cynics and yeah like contrarians. So that's not new. and but The ah game industry and the game fans are not known for their ah nuanced takes on ah female protagonists or games that are not toxic and male-centric. Right.
00:57:41
Speaker
but like But I think there is space for a simulation like this one, as you're saying, yeah because, it again, it it provides an experience. And sometimes it's nice to just play something that you can immerse yourself in and the stakes are low. I know that's why people play what they what are called cozy games like Animal Crossing or um you know stuff like that. so i But this sounds cool. like i had I'd seen the ah the trailer. You had sent it to me. And I think I'd heard of it one other time before you sent it. um And it's so cool to see something Because you know that they chose that this is the way we can tell this story.
00:58:13
Speaker
you know And maybe maybe there was a world and they you know might have wanted to make a movie out of it. Who knows? But the fact that they chose to make this an interactive experience, something that you can see and like you said, choose how to interact with this world. I think that's so such a cool concept. And i now I'm really interested. I want i want to try this.
00:58:31
Speaker
I yeah that was, you know, some of the critique was like, it should have just been a movie. And I'm like, understandable to maybe think that from the outside of like, well, you just watch people hang out. It's just a bunch of cut scenes like and and I would be almost inclined to agree with that if I hadn't played through it. and been like, oh no, but what's cool is that I get to decide when to trigger something, when to move into something, where to look. If I want to just investigate and just spend time in this moment longer, like it's not just happening for me. i am I'm not passive, but I'm also not trying to
00:59:08
Speaker
win and um as somebody who's never really connected with cozy games personally i've tried some i know people love them i've always struggled to be like hey what's the point this for me i went oh i get it oh i get of just living in this world and experiencing this thing and just feeling this this the sensation of it and uh Yeah, I just, I was really surprised. I just, i I did not think I would love a game like that the way that I did. And I just kind of fell into it. And I, we talked, you know, in previous episodes about how much we've been longing for art that really,
00:59:47
Speaker
is escapist and pulls us into another world and, and creates a visceral feeling where we were just lost in the world. And I, this is about the closest I've had to that of anything recently where I'm like, Oh my God, I'm just here through music, through the choices I'm making, through the artistry, through the sort of surreal dreamlike imagery of it all. It's, uh, it's really, it's really cool. It's really special.
01:00:12
Speaker
would Would you say there's a similar feeling in terms of navigating the game that you had to an experience like Sleep No More where there's a story going on and you know, you your path is you choose how you're going through that. Is that similar would you say? Very much so. Obviously very different tonally, but yes, very much so of of feeling like I can move and in and around this world and touch it, interact with it and sense it and And I'm not necessarily in control of where the story goes and I'm not not dictating the beats of the story, but I kind of have this, I can move through the space and and become part of it very much so. In fact, seeing Sleep No More in a weird way helped me understand more what a great game could be as somebody who didn't grow up playing many games.
01:01:02
Speaker
It's like I went, oh, oh I love this. and And so it's been interesting trying to find games more like that. Um, I've experimented with a lot of games over the last few years because I really didn't play games growing up. And so John Madison really got me onto, he's like, Hey, try to try these games. And it's funny because all the games I thought I would love all the big, like, Oh, you're going to blow stuff up and you're going to, I just like find that I don't care. I'm like, I know.
01:01:31
Speaker
And I'm finding myself really drawn to these more immersive, don't spell it out for me. Don't, don't, I don't want to have to be, you're not gamifying everything. There's not a, there's not a point total. There's not a leveling up thing constantly that it's more about moving through a world. um That's really, yeah, it's, it's, it's just really different. It's really cool, but yes, very much what I think like immersive theater almost. Yeah. It's almost like an immersive theater experience as a game, but you get to like fly. Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:06
Speaker
Which is a little, you know, you get to coast through the world. Well, I will say because know you've talked about Baldur's Gate. You're a big fan of that. um i So I am not big on turn-based games.
01:02:19
Speaker
until I played Claire Obscure Expedition 33 last year, while our friend Will, Will Branner got me into it. And that was ah because the story was so good. I think that's what, what really hooked me was that it had a great story. The soundtrack is amazing. I mean, that game swept the game of the year awards last year, and this was an independent French developer.
01:02:40
Speaker
You know, they, they, they came out of nowhere with this, but it speaks to, you know, taking something that's a little bit more visceral, um, a, Picking a concept that's already been proven in turn-based roleplay role-playing games, but then making it ah ah just a little just like with a little bit of a difference.
01:02:56
Speaker
And it succeeds and people love that stuff. And so I really, i love that something like mixtape exists because here you are with a simulation game, but something that speaks so close to home and that feeling of euphoria, being with your friends, experiencing the world through a a more hopeful lens. And maybe that's maybe that's why people are so averse to it, is because it might be a little too earnest in its delivery, which is something we were talking about off camera.
01:03:21
Speaker
but Yeah, yeah. i I actually think that you tap into something there. It's like, yeah, I saw a lot of a lot of comments. as being Oh, this is so cringe. Like, oh my God, like I'm just going to watch Friends like bond.
01:03:35
Speaker
And man, if you're going to go and if you're goingnna go with through life like that, I go, I don't know what to tell you. Like, yes. Like, I'm sorry. Oh, what? We're you just going to watch people be happy for two hours? Oh. i It's something I...
01:03:49
Speaker
I want to be delicate. um Something I struggle with sometimes with being adjacent to so many people who are so funny. And I love comedy. And I've done a lot of comedy.
01:04:03
Speaker
I've actively walked away from the comedy scene. i've act I literally was on a sketch team at Second City. I was in the improv world. mean, that was my whole life was comedy, comedy, comedy, comedy. comedy comedy And I was yeah about five or six years ago, was like so sick of everything being a bit.
01:04:21
Speaker
And I was just craving, i was like, I need authenticity. i want to have real conversations with people. I want to be able to talk about how we really think and feel. And, and I've really gravitated towards that. And, i am, I am aware of the fact that I think it's sometimes people, maybe I, maybe I come across as overly earnest, but whatever, but I don't know.
01:04:43
Speaker
you got to like You got to pursue the kind of creative stuff that that draws you and that you want to make. you go if If I try to, well for year, during COVID, I was trying to, was on TikTok. mean like And I just think at some point was like, I don't,
01:04:59
Speaker
I don't like this. Like I don't, I'm not enjoying it. I don't care about it. It feels disposable to me. I'm not having fun doing it. um And so then the stuff I do tend to put out there tends to be a little bit more like I've spent a long time on it. There's a reverence for it. And you know, that's not everyone's cup of tea, but I think if you're like willing to engage with art, that's about openness and earnestness.
01:05:25
Speaker
There's so much out there to like, i don't know. i just I don't know where being cynical and only being like, Hey, we're just funny. Don't ever get serious. I just don't, I just, that doesn't get me anywhere. I want to be.
01:05:38
Speaker
Yeah. And I, well, first of all, don't apologize for your earnestness. um First of all, my earnestness sees yours. So we're, we're two piece of the same pod here. Yes. right I think when we were drawn to each other, were like, yes we feel a lot of things. And we feel them very passionately and deeply and we're very sincere about them. But like, and yeah and and I don't want you to ever lose that. Cause I've, I've always felt that in the same way, you know, I've been part of star kid since I was in college with everybody. And I for a while, in fact, someone one day told me and if this is not Starkid related. But I was in college and I'd made some stupid joke because i my whole life, i've just I make stupid comments. I would never consider myself a funny person, but I'll land a punchline every once in a while. You can laugh. You don't have to. It's fine. But someone in college one day outwardly just told me, you're not funny.
01:06:27
Speaker
And that sat with me for so long. I took that so personally because I am not in a room to try to entertain you, but rather, like, hey, like let's just crack jokes together. We're all part we're all part of this.
01:06:40
Speaker
And for someone to make the choice to just tell me that I'm not funny, I was like, oh, well, shit, why am I even trying? And sometimes I feel like that's what the comment section is today.
01:06:52
Speaker
That's what the Reddit thread is today, where it's like this person just taking a very personal dig at me. And I'm like, you know what? It's fine. Or even just being that's the other thing is like we've talked about just sometimes I've just not even perceived, which is the thing I'm working on and in therapy.
01:07:07
Speaker
But I have to. hold on to that earnestness that, you know, that I am, I care about the things that i care about. If I want to talk about directing, choreography, all that stuff, if I want to talk about acting in a way that's just very, you know, ah with a lot of reverence and things, that's great. Some people don't care about that and that's fine.
01:07:26
Speaker
I have to be okay with that. um Because ultimately what gets me up in the day is that care and that passion about those things and that I still want to do it. It's so funny. i I used to work. I used to job that I had used to have in the past. Not not related to anybody that we know. I'm so grateful. So much of the stuff that I do now, like freelance stuff, I'm like so grateful that in large part, people are like, no, do do your do your weird passion thing. like Whatever you're into, go do it. I'm like, oh, thank you. But back in the day, about 10 years ago, I worked at a studio here and and I remember getting into this debate about a lot of the work that I was doing was creative and it was just really compounding and it was like overwhelming. And the note was, can you just like care less?
01:08:09
Speaker
Can you just like, just turn it out? And I remember going like, Okay, let me try to to do that. And I found that the mechanism by which I can be creative, when I turn off the like earnest caring part, no creativity comes out like it's, I can't just turn off one and produce. And, and that is like, and it's also like why I've struggled so much with creativity. the idea of having a personal brand on social media and just like I post three times a day. And like, go if it, if it's not something that I can resonate with or connect with, I don't know how to, I cannot find the will. Yeah. Yeah. I can't find the will. it's hard. I don't know. Well, what I've learned is that when people say care less,
01:08:57
Speaker
What I found is that I need to care less about what other people think. Yes. not yeah Not that I need to care less about the thing that I enjoy. Like, yeah, I can be overenthusiastic about something, but at least I care. Like, that's why i want to do it. But I have to start caring less about the opinions of other people.
01:09:12
Speaker
And that itself is ah is a little bit of a struggle and a journey that we each have to discover on our own. Because this is a business that is predicated on the opinions of others, whether that's in the audition room, or that's your audience that's watching the thing that you're putting out there.
01:09:25
Speaker
So at a certain point, you have to be so settled within yourself, that it doesn't matter when you have the noise coming in at you, you can block that out and just say, I'm gonna put this thing out there.
01:09:37
Speaker
Whether you receive it or not is completely up to you. Once this is done, i need to move on to the next thing because this is what I want to be doing in this life. yeah And so I'm currently on that journey. And listen, I'm not perfect. I've had days where I'm really great about it and days as recently as last week where I was like, ooh, wow, I'm really doubting myself right now.
01:09:56
Speaker
Same. ah Yeah. So it's it's an ongoing process. It's funny too how you can be doing something awesome and you would think you would think in those moments of awesome that you'd be like, well, I'm doing something awesome. Surely I'm going to feel awesome. That is often when those moments come most aggressively. It's when you're doing the awesome thing that you've worked hard to do and then you're like, maybe and maybe i suck and maybe shouldn't. It's kind of funny how...
01:10:25
Speaker
It comes for you right when you least expect it. Totally. Totally. Because you're supposed to be you're supposed to be in a a state of gratitude in those moments. You're supposed to really grateful that this is happening. And yet, whether it's imposter syndrome, whether it's jealousy, you know whatever it is that creeps up into your ear, it starts speaking. So you have to detach yourself from those feelings and prove yourself in the in just the reality of what you're doing.
01:10:51
Speaker
and and And that is hard. That is a very hard thing for anyone to do. And that's not just specific to artists. that's We all go through that. um I love that you it's something you're actively working on because that has been literally since we did Guy last summer.
01:11:06
Speaker
It was right when I kind of began this journey of trying to become a healthier person mentally, physically, emotionally, all that. And a big part of that has been... Getting okay again with being earnest and passionate and not being like, what if people think it's weird? Or what if people are like, oh my God, he's, and just being like, i don't care.
01:11:27
Speaker
yeah Getting more comfortable with that has been a big journey. And I feel like I'm in a lot better place, but yeah, there's always days that it's like, like but at the end of the day, I go, man, we got one shot to like make and do stuff in this life. and I want to do the stuff that makes me feel alive and like so stoked to be there. And I don't want to hold back on that joy. There's so much cynicism. There's so much, there's so much like cynicism in the world. And it's like, if you're going to get together and do something hard, i want to do it because I love it and I care about it. And it means something to me.
01:12:02
Speaker
Not do it with my, you know, from an arm's length being like, whatever. Yeah. Oh, I hate that. I hate that. hate that. But I'm glad though that something like mixtape then found you because it brings out that joy in your spirit, in your heart. And, and that's, you know, like it's cool. It's the art that wears its heart and its sleeve. Like, yeah, it's, you go, wow, this was made for me, you know? Yeah. I mean, I know the title of our podcast is suggestive by nature, but we use that because it's like, yeah, but it's because it speaks to me. It speaks to my soul a little in a little way that, you know, I didn't think it would, or surprises me, or it's like, finally, I've been waiting for this thing to exemplify what's been sitting on my heart for all this time. So I'm really glad that this, that this. I'm to, I'm going to check it out. I'm really excited. I think you would really, I genuinely think you would really enjoy it because it, even like we've talked about some projects you've had in mind before that,
01:13:02
Speaker
This is not a performance piece per se, but the idea of some of the dance stuff that you've shared with me, like the Jungle album. Again, this is not a dance piece, but it's a similar thing where you're like, it's about this evocative, immersive, emotional mood. that I just have never experienced in a game before. And I'm craving art, movies, books, stories, music that does that. It like takes me to a place where i i can just float through it and and experience something that just existing in a grounded reality or a detached sort of cynicism doesn't allow you the vulnerability to like experience those kind of stories. i was cry By the end of this game, I was genuinely like crying. I was like,
01:13:49
Speaker
ah like weeping and crying. And I was like, it's not that profound, but it was because it tapped so tapped into this really deep personal feeling that, um, yeah, just a lot of games. A lot of games are very cynical. a lot of games are very, um, cool. They're like, you're trying to be so cool. Every, yeah all the characters are like cool, cool characters. And this, this is like, no,
01:14:14
Speaker
remember how, when you got your heart broken 17, this is what it felt like. And you're like, yes, it does feel like that. it yes I love that. That's amazing. Um, I'm glad I'm really glad. Um, cause actually funny enough, um When Sean on last our last episode, he brought up bait. And so I started watching that. I'm great i through. It's a really great show.
01:14:34
Speaker
Yeah. And so I'm glad like we're like trading things off to. Yes. Under each other, which is a segue to something we had brought up earlier um off camera. um So to anyone listening, we're actually going to put this out to you Email us at so what are you into pod at gmail.com with a um a TV show, a movie, an album, a comic book, whatever it is. And we're going to pick one or two things.
01:15:02
Speaker
Possibly. And we're going to watch them and then we're going talk about them on the episode. We want to hear some more things. So one or two lucky people will have their so suggestion picked and then we are going to respond to those pieces of art on a future episode.
01:15:19
Speaker
um I think that'll be a fun way to you know get everybody involved here, but also just get something that probably wasn't even on our radar. Absolutely. That's like the best part of this is getting to I feel like you learn so much about other people.
01:15:33
Speaker
by a what they're drawn to in art, but also and how you and I might react to the same piece of art together teaches me, helps me learn something about you and vice versa. And so, yeah, I think if we can do more of that with this platform, I would, I would love that. I think that would be awesome.
01:15:50
Speaker
Absolutely. Not that we can watch everything, but we will, we will be selective within the time that we have available. Yeah. That's what I We'll pick one or two. we can't We can't be doing everything. But yeah, we're going to try to start responding to some of those on the podcast. So again, you can always email us at sowhatareyouintopod at gmail.com.
01:16:10
Speaker
You can also find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube at soareyouintopod. um This is great, Kurt. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being vulnerable. Thank you. Thank you for doing this when you're probably very jet lagged.
01:16:24
Speaker
I know you've got a lot of recovery ahead of you. all right, everyone. ah Thank you so much. And as always, curious. Stay curious. hey