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Survivor, Storytelling, and Building Worlds with DM George Primavera
54 Plays1 month ago
George Primavera joins us this week. He’s a Dungeon Master and storyteller whose work spans live performance, immersive storytelling, and tabletop games, including projects like Realm, Hero Club, and his work with Smosh vs. Dread. He builds worlds and shapes stories in real time with other people.
The conversation moves from what we’re into right now into a deeper look at how stories actually get made.
This week’s Intos:
George brings:
• Survivor
George talks about why Survivor still works, how the structure of the game creates natural storytelling, and why watching people navigate alliances, strategy, and pressure is endlessly compelling.
From there, the conversation shifts into George’s work as a Dungeon Master and storyteller.
We get into how he builds worlds, how he guides stories without controlling them, and what it means to create something collaboratively in real time. It becomes a deeper conversation about structure, improvisation, and why some stories feel alive while others don’t.
We also talk about:
• Why games like Survivor create compelling narratives
• The balance between control and discovery
• How structure shapes creativity
• Building worlds people can step into
• What makes a story feel real
So… what are you into right now?
Email us:
sowhatareyouintopod@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
And welcome back to so What Are You James is vibing so hard. Today's guest is storyteller...
00:00:12
Speaker
How do you, okay, George, let me, let me, this is, this is messy. How you to introduced? Creator, storyteller, author, writer.
George's Creative Journey
00:00:21
Speaker
No, God, this is George. What? Just George. how yeah naive Genuine question.
00:00:30
Speaker
You, you have your hand in a lot of creative things. Do you, do you find yourself, how do you find yourself referring to what you do? Oh, man. i You know, yeah think everybody out here in Los Angeles kind of gets it when you're just a freelancer who's kind of just working on anything you can. Yes, yes. I got to talk to somebody who's like asking what I do. I usually say producer, but that doesn't feel...
00:00:55
Speaker
as all and ah because i most of my work is is starting my own projects like I even through smosh like some of the projects that I'm working on with smosh when I do work for them are projects I conceived and brought to them so yeah or conceived with a partner for example ah so i think i I usually default to producer just because it feels like the role that I slip into most and you produce you produce you yeah Yeah, I mean, I would like to go with I would say you're every DM's favorite DM.
00:01:29
Speaker
You know, your yes that would be my moniker for you. my God. We'll get into it. But George is probably one of the most inventive, creative and talented storytellers I've ever met.
00:01:40
Speaker
oh wow So just to say producer is is quite limiting in my opinion, but man, I'm a big fan of yours. Thank
Podcast Operations & Listener Shoutouts
00:01:47
Speaker
you James. That's so George. Is there any chance you could turn yourself up a little bit more now that I'm looking at the levels? I'm like looking at the levels going little quiet. How about now? Where am i at now? Yes.
00:01:58
Speaker
Okay, beautiful. Gorgeous. um Well, this is ah this is a new episode. We're here. we're excited to dive into a lot with George, what George is into, talk about your creativity.
00:02:10
Speaker
But James, as I understand it, we are behind in admin. And so we need to do some catch up. I need everyone to remember that the the only people running the ship are just me and Kurt. just so So sorry that we're behind on some emails, but I'm just going to scan through them real quick at because people have been sending in their recommendations. We're going taxes. We're late on that.
00:02:35
Speaker
I always file an extension. for me, the taxes are due October 15th. Shut up. I can't know that. I can't know that life. If I know there's an extension, I'm going to be even later for the extension. I can't do that. Okay. So let's get this real quick. So first shout out to Aaron in New York who expressed their passion for film photography specifically working in those dark rooms and, and developing that film.
Exploring Film Photography
00:03:02
Speaker
Um, uh,
00:03:03
Speaker
Yeah, I forgot that the art of just creating film itself is something very cathartic for people. So shout out to Aaron for that. Oh, go ahead. So I was going to say, it is so strange sometimes to remember as an editor, how much film editing now is just an abstraction of like what...
00:03:23
Speaker
real editing is and was and how the software we use is just an emulation of the act of taking celluloid and and then and like people did that that's how it worked up until 20 years ago you you cut and spliced and glued and um but obviously film photography as well like actually getting your hands on it i have the itch is there and I, it's, it's a deep, dark hole of money to be spent, but I can feel myself teetering over the edge of wanting to get into film photography. So Aaron, you may have just, you may have just cost me a lot of money. You just ruined. I want to do this. You have say goodbye to the podcast. Kurt is in the rabbit hole, but there is something nice about like tack tactile, you know, so much, so much photography now is so ephemeral
Rom-Com Recommendations and Discussions
00:04:13
Speaker
and temporary. And there's something cool about,
00:04:16
Speaker
having a thing in your hand. I think that's cool. Absolutely. um Next, let's shout out to Ruby, who picking up on our conversation Kurt and I had about rom-coms a while ago, ah Ruby was suggesting Lisa Frankenstein, which I have not seen. right have Did you see that, Kurt?
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah, it was a big hit over on my on my Patreon. A lot of folks loved it. I enjoyed it. I didn't love it as much as maybe other people, but it's really fun. um It's screenplay by Diablo Cody, which is like always a delight and a treat. I'm such a fan of Diablo Cody's screenwriting.
00:04:47
Speaker
um Yeah, it's really, really fun. It stars. um Oh, what's her name? I love her. She was an Ant-Man. Not her best role. like Oh, say but yeah. What's her name?
00:05:00
Speaker
know that the daughter who plays Paul Rudd's daughter in the movie. Oh, yes, I don't remember. She's outstanding. She's fantastic in it. um It's really, really, it's it's fun. It's really fun.
00:05:11
Speaker
yeah It's really like George Tim Burton meets rom-com. Isn't that like one of the Sprouse twins is the dead guy? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah my My wife likes that movie.
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. There we go. yes she Well, George, i was going to ask you are you, are you a rom-com fan? ah Yes, I do like a good, well-formulated rom-com. I'm not like a sucker for the genre, but like a crazy, stupid love. Absolutely. Yes. Something that does something a little different with like some very funny people. I'm all in on.
00:05:43
Speaker
if it's if If it's more for like like, I don't know about like the... the Ryan Reynolds, Sandra Bullock of it all. You know what I mean? I don't know about yeah the the more like saccharine ones, but the ones that are kind of about like real messy relationships that have a rom-commy kind of ending, they're romantic and comedic, but not like so like fairy tale sweet ah tend to really like those. Yeah.
00:06:08
Speaker
I know it's ah it's a cliche, but man, we just rewatched in the very tragic passing of Rob Reiner, but we just rewatched When Harry Met Sally. And it just continues to be the the benchmark, the pinnacle for me of just messy, funny, honest, goofy, sweet.
Emotional Expression in Media
00:06:26
Speaker
ah If you haven't seen When Harry Met Sally, do that that to me is the everything else is in service of When Harry Met Sally. Everything is trying to live up to that. It is like... It is a very special.
00:06:37
Speaker
Meg Ryan, Billy Crystal. It's good stuff. Yeah, I have to say, I still don't believe that I have a soul, as George can probably attest to, because i don't cry in situations where one probably should. ah But ah there's no right time to cry. there's always a right time to cry. That's right. right oh That's because they're all the right time or none of them are. Yeah, there's none of them.
Musical Insights and Recommendations
00:07:01
Speaker
You have to.
00:07:03
Speaker
OK, so moving on, shout out to Cyrus in Scotland. who actually recommended a band for us to get into. They are named Enter Shikari.
00:07:14
Speaker
And ah as ah Cyrus describes, they've always had a huge focus on politics, solidarity, being loud in the face of oppression. And they're definitely the reason that Cyrus has been able to look at the state of the world and not give into despair.
00:07:27
Speaker
I love that. yeah they've been hard sell musically more that right now ah he he says they've been hard sell musically because it's not middle of the road at all it's taking a lot of inspiration from metal emo dubsed bri pop brit pop and her mental health in relation to that. So check out Enter Shikari, which sounds like a really great album. This is like baked, made for me especially. That sounds fantastic. Okay, cool. get it up as bake Look
Film Critiques: 'La La Land' and Casting Choices
00:08:03
Speaker
it up right now. And then Jack, who we have mentioned on this podcast before, Jack is in the mood to have a good cry um and feel some feelings. So Jack was it going to do a double feature ah between La Land and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.
00:08:20
Speaker
Oh, Eternal Sunshine is a... yes eternal Eternal Sunshine. Yes. One of my faves. I think... I have to say, I think La La Land is a movie I have maybe soured on a little bit. I have not seen it. ah ah As an actor, it is...
00:08:37
Speaker
It's beautiful. And I think if maybe you don't work in the industry, you can be like, wow, this is so moving. If you do, you will watch it and be like, this is preposterous. This is this is a preposterous. it's It's the classic, like, you're doing a show at a black box and the casting director is there and makes all your dreams come. And it's, you know, and it's...
00:08:59
Speaker
You know, it's made by somebody who has been a tour success from the jump. And I think you can kind of feel that it's incredibly well made. it's It's shot beautiful beautifully well. I don't know if it's super authentic to what most artists go through. And also Ryan Gosling teaches us about jazz. And maybe that's also not...
00:09:20
Speaker
yeah little strange. Ryan Gosling teaches. You can't shoot down Ryan Gosling for me, though, after Project Hail Mary. No, he's he's incredible. he's his he He's incredible. But there's something inherently wrong about Ryan Gosling saving jazz from John Legend. There's something so right got wrong with educates John legend about there is something there is that is heinous. But that is in the movie that's in it' because I've never seen it. That is all that movie is to me is Ryan Gosling explains jazz ah to the people who invented jazz, which is on it's just unreal.
00:09:55
Speaker
And also just like, cause I'll always be the one to gripe on this, but anytime I see that they want to do a movie musical, but they cast people who aren't necessarily musical theater actors to do it. So like the choreography is just a little bit off. The singing isn't that great. And I keep thinking like, I know 20 people off the top of my head that could do this in their sleep a million times better. Just hire those people but they won't do that because that's not how Hollywood works. But so I also have my misgivings with, with that movie. There is ah an incredible poster of, um you know, the La La Land poster where it's Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling on the like hillside by the bench doing the the jazz hands. And there's a somebody who's replaced Emma Stone with Rocky from Project Culinary. And they're both like, I was like, that's the movie
Pacing in Storytelling
00:10:42
Speaker
I want to see. Give me a musical with Rocky and Ryland. Oh, I love that. would go see it. love that.
00:10:49
Speaker
um Okay, so the last thing I want to do is a question for all three of us, actually. George, I'm to include you in this. um It's an old question, but sorry, Perry, we're we're getting to it right now. So I'm just going to read the whole message from Perry here.
00:11:03
Speaker
Hi James and Kurt and also now George. I've been really enjoying the pod. I recently watched back to back the original 1974 taking of Pelham 123 followed by the 2009 remake and found the pacing almost jarring from one to the other. What took 30 minutes in 1974 took about 90 seconds in 2009. I personally enjoy the slow dialogue and build up of things like 12 angry men or the African queen. But can see how that feels like agony for most to watch these days. Where do you think the sweet spot is for not rushing a story, but still keeping the audience engaged? Do you think we have found that balance in 2026? Yeah.
00:11:44
Speaker
No. Do I think we've got the balance? No. ah Short form content is killing us all. I think people would benefit so much from sitting with stories that require you to sit in the moment. I i think there's so much beauty to be learned from the patient's I had this experience with Allie Gordon, guest from two episodes ago. Allie and her husband invited us to go see a film from the 70s called Stalker. It's famous movie by Tarkovsky. It is a three and a half hour movie.
00:12:16
Speaker
brutally long film. And I remember we went and saw it at video. It's here in LA. It's not a movie that I think I would have sat with at home, but it was one of the most transcendent experiences I've ever had because I was stuck in a theater sitting with this movie. There are sequences that literally last 10 or 15 minutes where nobody talks. They're just sitting in silence, which sounds insane. It sounds like it shouldn't work. And I went through these series of frustrations and I would get angry of like, why is nothing happening? And then I would sort of give into the movie and then let myself just be taken with it. And I found it to be such a cathartic and beautiful experience. And so that's my hot take is I actually think people could really benefit from sitting with things longer and like cool editing and rapid pace editing. That's fun. And that's definitely a tool, but it's not the only thing. And um I actually think patience and storytelling is a virtue. George, what do you think?
00:13:13
Speaker
Oh, we muted. Oh, George, you're muted. I'm so sorry. Here I am. you're good. dog is barking like crazy. Here he goes again. ah i can I can't hear it at all. so Oh, good. and Maybe it's in the background enough. um I work almost exclusively in a form where you sit around a table for like so three or four hours at a time.
00:13:32
Speaker
So ah creating the story, I get to spend so much time with it. When I watch stuff, though, yeah It's right that like certainly it would benefit us if we had longer attention spans that could like be able to, you know, sit with like a a prerecorded medium for a little bit longer. But I do think while it is a good practice, if you want to compete with things yes that are short form, even if you are even just a little bit longer form, the pace does have to be kind of like.
00:14:03
Speaker
It not blistering, but never the momentum never can stop, even in the ah vulnerable, quiet, softer moments.
Audience Engagement and Content Consumption
00:14:13
Speaker
The stakes there, if anything, become like even raw and crazier. You don't have to. i think a lot of times when.
00:14:22
Speaker
ah pace gets brought up and things need to be faster paced. It doesn't mean that you need to jump from event to event as fast. It's more that like the scene has to move emotionally. You can go through like nine different emotions and not say anything, and that's fast paced. I think, yeah you know, if more is happening in front of you, it's going to grab your attention because you're going to you're going be on the train instead of like, you know, you could make a huge mistake by thinking you need five seconds of a guy looking off into a pool and then looking at his hands and then looking to camera before delivering the line where maybe him just saying it outright with off the cuff is the more interesting choice. Yes.
00:15:05
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. i I kind of go back and forth on like the i I bemoan us not being able to sit through things. But then I know people do sit through things and it's not like and they have phones.
00:15:16
Speaker
You know what i mean? Like, yeah and are they better than us or they just found a piece of media that like maybe is grabbing? I was talking to was having coffee this morning with somebody. We're talking about the the the the success of The Pit.
00:15:29
Speaker
And I know a lot of people in in the industry bemoaning. These young people, they they don't watch anything anymore. They just want the TikToks. That's not true. on my Even on my on my little Discord world, every week The Pit is a is a event for everyone. Everyone's like, it's Thursday night. It's time to watch The Pit. I put my phone down when I watched the That's right. They're so engaged. And a big chunk of the audience are are young people. You know, the Gen Z audience, they are resonating, connecting. So I 100% agree with you. And I think that show is a great example where there are incredibly powerful, beautiful moments of stillness.
Writing Challenges in TV Shows
00:16:05
Speaker
But that show, there's always, it's always got this momentum to it.
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah. You ever see Dr. Lobby just have big holding like go through an odyssey in his brain over like four seconds of silence? He's not stopping. Yes. His brain doesn't freeze. Yeah.
00:16:21
Speaker
these Agonizing moments where you want a character to finally say something and then they're about to. And then, you know, bam, the doors open and a new you know person comes in. And so i I to your to your point, George, you go,
00:16:34
Speaker
People are willing to engage with longer form things. For sure. just have to give them something to to hold on to. I think that's a really astute point. Pace is not just how fast and chaotic it is. It's about giving the audience something to connect to every any given moment, which is what the artist's job is.
00:16:50
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah. The only thing I'll add to that is I'm sure we've all seen that article where Netflix basically admitted, yeah, the way we write our movies is designed for people who are looking at their phones. So we might have to repeat some dialogue. You know, I have to.
00:17:04
Speaker
i I heard that and then they denied it pretty hard that like that was true And what i I think it's a middle ground of something in between, kind of. The first thing is that writers rooms have been destroyed.
00:17:18
Speaker
Like yeah a traditional writers room no longer exists the way you used to know about it in like sitcom production or anything like that. Now they hire like seven people, pay them. Can I swear on this podcast? I'm so sorry.
00:17:30
Speaker
yeah Please go ahead. Dog shit. They pay them poorly for a weekend's worth of work in which they write nine episodes of television. Just like not sometimes the shows are just bad.
00:17:44
Speaker
Sometimes that's like people are like, oh, they built them for like secondary screen viewing or they're just kind of pumping out garbage because they know they can get away with it. That that's I think I think that's where the line is. I think a lot of television is just.
00:17:58
Speaker
bad And I think the we designed it to be watched with a second screen thing is almost like a C-suite bullshit line that they were like, no, we're actually smart about our content being stupid.
00:18:09
Speaker
i I can't get behind because Stranger Things, which it was such a phenomenon in the early seasons, really respected the audience that it had and like didn't over explain.
00:18:22
Speaker
and let characters be extremely smart and let people not be on the same page character wise and let those conflicts come out in scenes. And in the later Stranger Things seasons, they get all the characters in the entire cast on the same page in episode like two or three so that everybody can just move in action and and everything that gets explained is reiterating a plan.
00:18:43
Speaker
where both parties understand so they can both give a line of dialogue that clarifies what's happening and there isn't, or somebody is explaining like, remind me why we're doing this again? Like that stuff. And then the visual metaphor, the black and white is like this piece of paper and this waffle is the portal. And then you're just like, yes, I I'm like, this was charming when it was a science teacher teaching kids, but now we're just describing things to an audience we feel is either not paying attention or stupid.
00:19:10
Speaker
Right. That's so astute. I think that's so – I think that's giving them too much credit. The process itself is – it's to blame in large and part. It's not purely malicious. These writers are not always to blame. The conditions that these people are put under to produce content for a paycheck is insane. Like I would never disparage the writers of a poor of a bad show on Netflix like I would all of the people who make the financial decisions, including the artists, directors and everybody on set who maybe create a poor product. You would not believe the constraints that are put on those people that let them not do what they probably would have wanted to do. There probably would be an um an immense load of incredible art if those constraints were lifted.
00:19:55
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And that's I feel like that's just working for a corporation in general. I've learned that firsthand. Certainly. times Working for just higher ups that aren't making creative decisions. They're making business decisions in the and they're what's affecting their bottom line, regardless of the content that you're putting out. So, yeah, that ah i yeah I agree that it is a little bit of a cop out to say, like, oh, we're just writing for second screen. I know so many writers who also produce something amazing and then they don't get picked up on the second season because they would cost too much.
00:20:24
Speaker
Like, you know what I mean? It's just a lot of the things that fall off are not because the creatives didn't have a vision. You know what I mean? I'm very forgiving to all artists for that reason. yeah Also, too, back in the day, you like you watch a lot of shows that became hits and became beloved.
00:20:40
Speaker
a lot of times that first season you watch it and you go, it's sit's sit's finding its way. And then because there was a runway as they found it, the audience found it, the writers found it, the the actors, that everything started
Classic Sitcoms and Finding Their Audience
00:20:53
Speaker
to gel. But A lot of times now those things get canned before there's any chance. And so.
00:20:58
Speaker
Absolutely. Even something that starts in a place that, you know, like classic first season of The Office, you can see these nuggets of ideas. Like, oh, that's funny. Oh, but, but it really was season two where they were like, we found our footing here. So. Parks and Rec was the same way. Exactly. Parks and Rec. time yeah Parks and Rec. Yeah. Parks and Rec. Season one was kind weird. Season two was brilliant.
00:21:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. um All right, cool. So let's get into the big question and also the title of this podcast. So George, I'm going to ask you, drum roll.
00:21:30
Speaker
What are you into?
George's Passion for 'Survivor'
00:21:31
Speaker
Okay. I normally would bring something here like some very high concept sci-fi or some fantasy or space opera, something in that realm. But I'm not going to bring that to you today. What I posit for you, folks, is I have been very into and I've watched more of this than anything in the past probably four or five years, Survivor.
00:21:59
Speaker
Oh, here we go. Here we go. okay All right. All right. Welcome to a world that is... Okay. When you say reality TV, this is reality TV. None of the shows that you are talking... And that does not to say that it is not production and editing and narrative and influence and all of that. But I am saying...
00:22:20
Speaker
When you talk about conflict that happens between real people on a reality television show, you're often talking about like a producer came up and whispered into somebody's ear, or hey, you need to have a fight with with Jennifer over there and make sure that you're, you know, facing camera. but You know, it's it's like absolutely manufactured.
00:22:38
Speaker
Totally on survivor. People have real fights with each other that extend out of the television show and into real life. They are, they are decades long grudges about people. It's like play the least friendly game of like a monopoly, but with a social deduction, lying element, and then like force those people to once in a while, come back to play with each other. Oh, and yeah, the stakes are a million dollars.
00:23:04
Speaker
It is, you know, the I think it is one of the most informative things for a person who is writing characters. And you see how editors choose characters to highlight people's certain storylines. And that's all very interesting. But the real meat of why I love Survivor, in addition to the fun gameplay elements, because I like a game, obviously, I make games kind of my whole career if I can. ah But to me, it is like the human moments of deception ah and honesty juxtaposed with each other.
00:23:41
Speaker
When you see these two people talk, one is lying and one is telling the truth. And then it flips to a confessional and they tell like what they were really thinking in the moment. It is like.
00:23:53
Speaker
It's like a breakdown of human emotion and interaction in a way that has been more instructive for the creation of character for me than anything else I have watched. Because it is not stealing from an author's perspective on people. It is just people watching.
00:24:08
Speaker
People People in a high stakes thrown into a a hot box, like forced to reckon with each other. Forced to starve on an island and hopefully deceive each other for a million dollars. And they do starve. They lose. Yes. I mean, that's part of it.
00:24:25
Speaker
You know, ah do you guys have you guys ever? survivor I've seen a few of quite a few seasons. Yes. OK, OK, OK. I I. I have watched bits and pieces here and there, but I will say I have such a vivid memory of Survivor debuting season one after the Super Bowl.
00:24:44
Speaker
How long ago was this? Was this probably 20 years? 2000? It was or years ago. I remember it was like a a a you had to be there moment because I don't think anything had had ever been done like that.
00:24:58
Speaker
Not like that. it was pretty unique to it. And then Big Brother followed and stuff like that. But yeah. yeah but I remember like watching it with my family. And i think we I think I watched all of that first season and then I've caught bits and pieces. But I have not kept up with it, but I feel like you are the probably third or fourth person I've encountered recently who has cited that like it's they're but it's back in their life in a meaningful and interesting way that they are like getting a lot from. So I'm so curious to...
00:25:28
Speaker
Yeah. why Have you stayed with it the entire time? Is it something you've fell back into rediscovered? Is it brand new for you? Like what's your journey with survivor during the pandemic? My roommate and I, he introduced me to like the best of the best seasons and then gotcha watched a ton of survivor, watched the big season 40 that happened five years ago.
00:25:48
Speaker
and then ah my wife and I loved it to like both watch it together. We don't watch a lot of the same stuff. So we really bonded over watching it together just with different tastes. um But we love watching. It's nice when you find the show. like yeah And there's 40 seasons of it. Incredible.
00:26:05
Speaker
Incredible. Never going to run out. And then there's Australian Survivor because we have watched from season one all the way through like 35. I've seen a couple I've seen those other five seasons like at other times. And then we have also watched all the way through to now season 50. So I've seen pretty much including the current every season of Survivor and she has as well. And then when we're done with that, we're going to go to Australian Survivor like we're going to keep watching it.
00:26:34
Speaker
um One of the things... oh go ahead. I was just going to say that one of the things I love about Survivor is that it does encompass a lot of whether it's mental acuity, physical acuity. yeah there The challenges vary. So yes, you could be the most athletically gifted person on that season. That does not guarantee you a win because there's a lot of social strategy that goes in this. so How do you politic your way through each tribe? Then you make it when everything merges. And you know have you already have you already deceived somebody before that? And are they holding a grudge? Do you have a bitter jury because of how you act? Or do they just love you because you've just been their best friend and been so loyal this whole time and that carries you through to the end? Yes, that's a huge element of differences ah it. the also that I'm also guessing there's probably –
00:27:28
Speaker
Ally, you know, making allies and then oh, yeah, I'm assuming like probably helping each other. But then you have to figure out are going to turn on each other? You got it. You got it exactly right. Are you going to go to the end with the partner you swore up and down? You would never write their name or when you realize when there are five people left that if it's you and two other people and that guy, your best friend is one of those three people, he is going to win. You you you why are you here? You're here to win a million dollars. Are you not? Are you going to let the person that you said you would never win, ah like go and beat you? Or are you going to cut him at the end, have him go to the jury and have him shit talk you to every single person on the jury who decides who gets a million dollars? The people you voted out decide. So you can't just like cut be cutthroat with no strategy here. Like there' there's so much. I get like boggled in my brain when like somebody is like talk about Survivor, which is a great thing I brought on this podcast. Sorry, but because there are just so many elements of it that, uh,
00:28:30
Speaker
are things that I have lifted and put into the my own stories that I'm creating or that I like to write. Like there are conflicts that I see. Can I do one really specific one as at least kind of a little bit of your example of what I'm talking about of not like an open conflict, right? There is a very nerdy guy. His name is Christian Ubicki.
00:28:50
Speaker
He is a doctorate of Christian. Okay. He's one of my favorite people of all time. He's my favorite. Christian is what I would call an odd duck, but in a way where he is very self-assured. Here's an example, a little spoiler alert. If anybody has seen in season 50 over the course of this season, he has shit his pants on camera. ah i And I mean on camera. I mean like the camera catches him, his face change as he shits his pants.
00:29:16
Speaker
And then he just turns to the camera to go wash himself in the ocean and goes, you don't want to see this. Like, no, no shame whatsoever. And he has also, like, done a pratfall at the tribal council where people get voted out so that another ally of his could hide a tool that is later hopefully used at tribal council, like, as, like, a surprise. but but distracted everyone and fell so ridiculously, but is such a ridiculous person that nobody suspected anything was wrong.
00:29:47
Speaker
Like truly just thought like that's Christian being Christian. And this this silly nerd, who is my one of my favorite people in Survivor of all time, gets into a position where him and his alliance have to betray basically the jocks, all the rich kind of macho men who kind of, not rich, excuse me, what I meant jacked is what I meant to say. Wealthy and muscle. Rich jacked. Wealthy in the muscular department like like and they're all kind of like playing on like this honor and integrity thing. Right. And there is a shot of this guy, Joe, who is absolutely yoked to the gills, sitting in a hammock like a little baby.
00:30:24
Speaker
While Christian rocks him back and forth, explaining to him the social intricacies of why he had to be left out of the vote. And he has to smooth over with this big, angry jock why the nerd has, like, deceived and overcome him. And at the end of it, it's like...
00:30:44
Speaker
you realize that the nerd is like the one with all the social power right now. Yes. Just because one person left the beach, like just the the subtle dynamics of the people outnumbering and feeling safe and who feels like they're in power and how status works, not just between a group, but between two people within a group. And how that it it is just like the greatest ah Pepe Sylvia Webb. If anybody watches always sunny in Philadelphia, Pepe Sylvia puts a map all over the house. It is a it's a bunch of strings across pictures on on corkboard of of social interactions, ripple effects between people and dynamics of groups and individuals. It is like I've never seen a TV show come close to doing
00:31:30
Speaker
the honest emotional conflict between a group of like seven or eight people like survivors showcases. Um, it feels like it kind of strips away things to a very, um obviously there's a Hollywood production to it, of course, but it does kind of strip away things to a very primal ah sort of like, you know, there's no corporate aspect of workplace. diet It's like, it's weird. We are in, are literally the title is like, we are here to not die.
00:32:01
Speaker
Day one and two, so people are like, I mean, it's like people are like, oh, he's being bossy. I don't like that. That guy's being bossy. By day five, it's like that guy caught us three fish. He's never leaving. Like, ah you know, and that's an early in early survivor. Now it's like fewer days. So people just kind of tank the hunger and like don't care about that. But when it is um when somebody gets.
00:32:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:34
Speaker
and emotions just bubble to the surface you see honest conflicts that would never happen in the real world which is what every tv writer kind of hopes to encapsulate and bring to life in the real world situations that they are writing for television It's like, yeah, the angry conflict between friends in real life nowadays with technology the way it is. It's sometimes it's like a ghosting. It's like you kind of grow apart.
00:32:59
Speaker
Not a fun thing to watch as like friends fall off of like the typical like, hey, we grew apart. We stopped talking. We we had like a weird interaction at one time. and that's kind of it. But you can take away people's rice and all of their strategies to calm down hu and and make them live together on a beach 24 seven for 39 days or 26 days or whatever season you're watching.
00:33:25
Speaker
Have you ever watched, there's a du there's a documentary on Netflix called like, is it called like Chimp Kingdom or Ape Kingdom? I can't can't remember what it was. It was like this whole documentary about just eight like had people in the rainforest following these chimps for like years. And it's so interesting because i always think of this as an actor. You know, sometimes we like to intellectualize our are problems in life. But watching this documentary, Kim and I were like,
00:33:52
Speaker
you know, theyre they're following certain characters, personalities are like, this guy's a, he's a dick and, and she's like playing mind games. And you're like, not to diminish the value of life, but I was like, we really are,
00:34:05
Speaker
we are nature. Like we are not, we are not higher than it. We're not above it. We're not separate. It's like, we are just part of this world. And when stripped away of all the, the buildings and the the clothing, you're like, this is you're watching it being like, I know somebody like this guy. Yeah. yeah So i thought that was such an, I like survivor. it feels like it it takes you down to what is your, what is the most primal form of being a human? And that's what I think was an actor. lot I'm like, who am I stripping away all of this facade? Like, what am I, who am I really?
00:34:35
Speaker
so what What I love about it is that the initial Survivor, you know, it's an experiment, right? We had no idea of that that this would work, you know, sending a bunch of people out to a deserted island and seeing if they can fend for themselves for, you know, two months almost. But then we get to this part now where Survivor season 50, now they've brought back people that have already been on the show but now any season that's out it's people that want to willingly want to go and starve themselves and and possibly get sick get injured all this stuff to but they test themselves i mean some of it is to get some social media not notoriety so i'm going to leave that out that's a later season tainting that has occurred indeed yes it is sort of lame but
00:35:13
Speaker
But there are people that genuinely want to go down to those basic instincts and see if they can so truly survive without their everyday means. and And there's something really wonderful about that. people train for it? Like, do do people sure train? And there's a show I love called um Alone. That's yeah a documentary series where they drop people in the middle of like the Alaskan wild. And you see these people that are like, I'm a survivalist. You know, I teach like fire bill. And you and I'm like these. I wouldn't.
00:35:43
Speaker
They have the skills. i I would have two days and I'm out. you know So I'm assuming people, i guess, train for this and prepare themselves physically, mentally. They definitely do. i would I definitely know people like eat a lot before they go, so they have like fat reserves to burn while they're not eating. yeah But I'll tell you, the thing that makes it so interesting is in the beginning, all of the big burly men... do really good in challenges, right? Because they're all 6'2". They are athletic in general. They just ate 48 hours ago. Everybody else is like weak and also hungry. They shine, right? And people yeah kind of value them because if your tribe wins, like you don't go to tribal council, you don't vote somebody off, your tribe stays stronger, you have more chances to make good alliances, potentially, right? Mm-hmm.
00:36:29
Speaker
But then those guys stop eating and they get weaker than everybody because they are getting less food than their body needs by kind of a much wider margin in a lot of cases, because you're not going to go into camp and say, I need more food than our rations because I say so because I'm bigger than you. No one is going to do that. That's crazy. So these guys start sucking.
00:36:52
Speaker
And they they start they start not doing good in challenges at about the same time that they start becoming big whiny babies. Yeah. Because they are so hungry. Yeah. and then all of a sudden you see them start to fall like flies and then you get to the individual immunity challenges and it's not so much about strength anymore. So now it's about balance.
00:37:12
Speaker
And it doesn't matter if you're six, five and can hoist double your body weight above your head. If you can't balance on a beam rocking by the tides of the ocean, you are out and you're going to be gone.
00:37:25
Speaker
ah ah It's just it's it's so interesting to see how like the typical society has set up like these very specific power dynamics and how just a week of being hungry in bad conditions.
00:37:37
Speaker
drops that to such an alien place where like the most influential people are people you'd never expect them to be in society based on like social norms here like it's it's not these like but Yeah. And then this is like, I think, revealing that these dynamics are structured there by by us. Like we don't this isn't natural for like certain people to be dominating in society. We've set up structures that allow them to do that. And then when you get to an island and everybody's got the same thing.
00:38:12
Speaker
It busts wide open, you know, like and you realize that, like, it's just about who the people are and if they're magnetic or charismatic or not, or if they're smart and subtle enough. It's not about whether, like, you came from money. If anything, that is a disadvantage because nobody wants you at the end to win.
00:38:30
Speaker
Did you you know have you guys ever seen the movie Triangle of Sadness? Yes, that is exactly. Yeah, ah exactly. That was one of my favorite movies of the last decade. And for that alone, where it's if all these rich people in a boat, with people from different classes, something goes awry and all of that protection and privilege sort of becomes irrelevant. And just i love I love that movie, but it sounds like there's a similar...
00:38:59
Speaker
enjoyment and watching that exactly and you you see people excel and rise that you would that like wouldn't believe that in themselves because they've been so beaten down by like norms ah and I love that line in triangle of sadness where the woman is like catching the fish and and they're like are you going to share the fish and she's like no I caught it and they're like why wouldn't you share with us like we all deserve we all share and it's like well when you learn how to catch fish or contribute anything then we can share because then that would be even yes And it's, it's, that is what i think.
00:39:32
Speaker
especially when people write stuff, you want to put people in situations that are interesting and electric to engage with. And usually that involves sending characters through hardship, right? almost Almost across the board, which strips something of their defenses away, which makes forces them to grow.
00:39:52
Speaker
And what is survivor but doing that to 18 people? And you watch every week as they have to grow into somebody different. That I think is yeah the coolest part. i had a writing a writing mentor years ago tell me, he's like, basically as a writer, your job, your you are God and your characters are Job.
00:40:09
Speaker
And you just you're putting them through hell to find out what they're made of and what's really under the surface. and i think I've said that before to people who who i I think have pushed back at that. And they're like, i i don't I don't want bad things to happen to my characters. And I'm always like, you think you don't.
00:40:25
Speaker
but But that's because you care about them. But you actually want, you think you don't, but you actually, you do because that's what makes you care about them and learn who they are. And yeah as a writer, your job is to to to push on that thing that is, if I can if i can get this to give way, what what is under the surface? i love that.
00:40:45
Speaker
Yeah, if you want to watch Survivor, it's something I if you have give you a couple of there's some stinker seasons. So you guys get them. But if you need some good seasons, want to always tell people to go watch right away if they're not familiar. I think it's 26, but it's called Survivor Kaga Yan spelled C-A-G-A-Y-A-N. And it is in a microcosm like a perfect little Survivor season.
00:41:08
Speaker
okay really season 26 okay yeah like or it might be 28 let me just like double check that for you kageyan is 28 it's 28 28 28 all right okay and then real quick do you have a favorite besides christian do you have a favorite survivor player oh my god um ah kind of Not really. i have people I love and people I don't love. Right now, my favorite people on Survivor 50 are ah a woman named Sari. love Sari.
00:41:42
Speaker
And a guy named Rick Devins. And I love Rick Devins because he's just like a chaos idol player who's kind of smarmy and cocky, has no chance of winning because he's kind of a dick when he pulls something off. But it's very satisfying because he's always got his back up against the wall. And oh gosh, who else could I ah say is like my favorite?
00:42:02
Speaker
Yeah. I think Tyson Apostle is a big favorite of mine. I really like Tyson. He is such a dick for his first season, like kind of a repulsive asshole. And then his second season, he's much more socially aware and more clued in and has like his head on his shoulders, but gets like so like his legs cut out from under him by like a chaos player. And then spoiler alert, his third time back, he comes back and he has like ah ah like um It's not that he has kids. Does he have kids?
00:42:35
Speaker
he it's It's something... Because he does have kids now. he now he has Oh, you know what it is? yes yeah He comes with his partner who he is knows he's going to marry and she gets voted out and he realizes he's doing it like for her and the family they're going to have one day. And it's like and then he fucking you know wins. yeah so it's like And it's like the most beautiful thing in the world. And then he comes back one more time, doesn't win, but realizes that his two daughters are the most important thing to him by being away from them for a certain amount of time. So you have a perfect... like
00:43:09
Speaker
asshole figures it out but still gets his like his slap back down victorious tries to be like kind of hubristic and and victorious again and then realizes what's really important what a yeah perfect arc for a character to go through arc yes oh that's so brilliant and also Tyson ended up being on um House of Villains if anyone's watching want to talk about trashy reality TV that's what i watch and he is there how is he on House of Villains I haven't seen that You know, he he's he's good. he's I think he's still aware of like, because everyone's putting on their villain persona for the show. um You can tell he's a much more muted version of himself from his survivor seasons. But he's still like, he pulls a few tricks.
00:43:52
Speaker
He knows what he's doing. He's aware. It's funny. yeah He's a funny guy. In his later seasons, he's been very fun. So I want to kind of segue now ah because we're talking about world building, character building, giving you know a very strong arc, putting your characters through some sort of hell, which is something you – we talk about writers doing this. But George, you do this sometimes on the fly, off the cuff for so many campaigns and so many things. Yeah. So can you give people just a ah as brief as you can, because you do a lot, but like kind of overview of what it is that you do and your producer title when it comes to thing like things like Realm or Dread or things of the like?
00:44:30
Speaker
Yeah, a big thing that like I don't list is like a normal title. I guess what I would call myself really at heart as a game master is is what I strive to do as much as possible. And what I do is I take tabletop role playing games like Dungeons and Dragons or which uses dice and character sheets or dread, which uses a Jenga tower. I use these games that use game mechanics to tell usually like some semi improvised stories with a bunch of players.
00:44:57
Speaker
ah who are people that embody a character and have their stats on a sheet or or basically participate in the game mechanics to determine whether actions they take succeed or fail. That is the the quick version.
00:45:10
Speaker
um I, as the game master, will usually plan a world ahead of time. I will know... what is what is going on in the broader world that I put these players in, whether it is a real world setting or if it's a fantastical setting completely fabricated. um I will listen to the kinds of characters that players want to play. We'll come up with backstories for them that are woven into the world so they feel some ownership over that place and they kind of have a say in the genre of story that their character is in in the middle of this big game. And I come up with things that I know are going to further the goals that the players have of the story that they want to tell by introducing obstacles to them, whether that is villains, ah natural disasters, monsters, spells, magical goings on, etc. um So what I do basically is just introduce mechanical limitations. I'll say, hey, you got a roll 15 to accomplish this. People will roll a dice, add a bonus that they have on their character sheet that pertains to who their character is. And if they get the number or higher, they succeed. And the thing they want to happen happens. If they get it too low and it's not high enough, the thing that they want to do fails and it didn't work. And we move on either into the next turn if it's a combat situation or somebody else, if it's not combat, pipes up and says that they want to try something where they have an idea.
00:46:32
Speaker
And anytime that's not combat and sometimes in combat, people are acting as their characters in scenes and they're acting as both their own narrators for their character. And they're doing often character voices or speaking as their character if they're not doing a character voice. So it's kind of like this big mishmash of like planned but not written and completely genuine improv ah from character perspectives in almost a way that kind of blends the actor and makes them the writer of just their character in this big tapestry. It's almost like if you went into a writer's room and you had one person in charge of all the bad guys and the world, and then you had four other writers who were only in charge of one major character each.
00:47:16
Speaker
Does that kind of... that's That's, I guess, what I do. and i And I make shows that have that in it. That's what I do mostly, yeah. Can i ask a question about... ah so It's so fascinating to me. As somebody who is a novice to...
00:47:31
Speaker
to this world, but, but so curious about it. um the The best two experiences I've had were were, were you doing these very, you know, short one-off kind of fun little things that we did for star kid, but still for me was a great intro to it.
00:47:45
Speaker
Obviously like you, you have such a knack for world building and writing. What about, I'm just curious for you. What about the, the game format are you drawn to as opposed to saying, I'm to write a novel. I'm going to write a screenplay. Like what is it about the,
00:48:01
Speaker
the game aspect and the the limitations and the possibilities of of dice and of of all these mechanics, what about that draws you in to to to create in that medium over, say, you know, whatever other things one could go about making? Is there something about the game aspect that you're drawn to? And before you answer that, because you've you've done how many campaigns have you done? Do you know that number? How many how many games of D&D? Yeah. Or campaigns?
00:48:28
Speaker
Campaigns. Oh, probably like 80 or 90 or or so that's a lot. And over, I mean, in terms of sessions, easily over 1500. See there.
00:48:40
Speaker
see there wow so so yeah, there's clearly something you love about this. what is that ah big A big reason that of that is because for a while i I had private clients that I played weekly games with and it was kind of like a, like a side gig. So I played weekly multiple times a week for like years. So that really put my numbers up. Um,
00:48:58
Speaker
But yeah, I've i've ah
00:49:03
Speaker
Sorry, what was the question? forgot. Well, no, just out of... oh Oh, why do I go to the game mechanic? Yeah, the game mechanic as a as a sandbox to play in over whatever other version. Yeah. Novels, screenplay. Novels, I guess. I guess novels and screenplays I've experimented with before. i i write I've written screenplays with partners before. I've written a couple of screenplays. I wrote something for Smosh that they did called Smosh Hospital that was like Oh, yeah.
00:49:31
Speaker
kind of like a semi improvised ah hospital drama goof goofy thing that was so I've written screenplays before, but it's not been like something that I was like wasn't my personal idea was kind of like ah I was commissioned to write a thing.
00:49:45
Speaker
When I go to try to write my own stuff, I will picture something happening. I'll see it happening. And then it is really, truly like a focus problem. to To get me to sit down in front of a computer and and write by myself, I get so bored and I hate my so my own voice when I'm just writing it down. i feel like repetitive. i I put myself to sleep when I try to put words on paper. I'm working on it. i'm I'm trying to eventually maybe write a novel one day. I would really like to do that. But. It is hard to get around the table. So the first thing is that creating with other people, which are the other players and people that organize these, these shows gives me an accountability to actually follow through. That is number one. Why i love that. Can't let people down. If they're showing up at the table, I got to have something ready for them.
00:50:31
Speaker
Um, and then the other element of it is that showing up on the day, ah creating the thing I can't create it wrong because if if everybody is coming in and being true to their characters as long as somebody's not having like a stinkery day and they're like bringing all their above table problems into the table and they're not being a collaborator That's kind of like its own problem. It's a problem I've had to sort out. But when I'm playing at high level, really engaging fun tables, not something I ever think about.
00:51:00
Speaker
It's just like I've done so much of this. I know how to read cues from people. I know how to delight people in a story I know they're trying to tell because I can kind of.
00:51:11
Speaker
Catch a vibe of like they're trying to suffer here a little bit. All right. I'll introduce a little suffering. Like I feel I feel very fun. I have a lot of fun in supporting people telling a story. It's like I'm going to do ta see what you're doing and I'm going make it better by adding a sad flower that dies and accentuates what you're feeling about. You know what i mean? Like, yeah, I love painting around a character.
00:51:33
Speaker
And i just get to do that like constantly while creating like a little bit of like a mystery. i can layer a mystery and and I can follow player instincts and and figure out like avenues. They're trying to go to learn something or investigate something in the world. And I can lay out interesting track in front of them for them to get to a goal that will ultimately be satisfying because they're the ones who set out to find that goal.
00:52:00
Speaker
Um, so yeah, it's, it's an, it's a weird thing. There's so few people that do this as like a job, not to say that there aren't ah lots of amazing people who do it, but like, it is not a common gig. If you took like, not a lot of people are successful actors, uh, compared to people who would call themselves actors and by successful, I mean like supporting yourself on it. Solely living off of your that's not it a best means for the love of God. that's just what i i meant to that moment capitalism Capitalism has destroyed my brain. Please forgive that that comparison.
00:52:32
Speaker
But in in the similar i'm I'm sure the ratio is even crazier to DMs who use it as an occupation compared to like hobbyist DMs. It's like it's a very small number of people. And it's because it's a new media format.
00:52:44
Speaker
So I think that based on how popular it has been, we're going to see a lot more of it ah coming out. Like people are going to realize how fun this is, like writers and actors, especially as like all of these monopolies on these stupid productions start happening. Like actors and and performers make amazing actual play D&D players to see on camera.
00:53:06
Speaker
It's just an actor following their instincts and having it be validated at the table by like a notary, which is the game master. Going back to the ah email from earlier, this idea of pace and momentum. I also think a lot about the the rise of the popularity of of D&D. You know, obviously we've seen it with like Critical Role and things like that. The stuff that you guys are doing with Realm.
00:53:30
Speaker
When people are like, nobody's nobody's watching long form things. I'm like, that's not true. People are engaging with like dozens of hours of storytelling in it.
00:53:41
Speaker
I agree with you. I feel like in the, you know, as we are seeing this sort of tidal wave you know, whether it's AI or even just the sort of flattening of creativity through Silicon Valley's, you know, bullshit like way of mining and sucking everything good out of it for profit.
00:54:00
Speaker
I think that that the more things that are deeply human and weird and cannot be written in a vacuum and cannot, that to me is going to become, it's it's why I'm also really excited about the future of theater weirdly yeah that it feels so precious. I remember,
00:54:15
Speaker
You know, after the first time we got to get back together in a theater and do stuff after the pandemic, it felt so precious because you were like, oh my God, it' you're here. You're here in front of me. And I i feel that way. I feel like...
00:54:30
Speaker
things that involve humans being weird and human are only going to become more of that. And it seems like that's something you're drawn to is that they you're getting to be in this space with people and bounce off of them, but still, still have the, um,
00:54:46
Speaker
the aspect of creative, not control, but creative fingerprints on the world. in a way sometimes like yeah You know, comedy improv, so fun, but you know, it's kind of a trifle. Sometimes it's like, yeah, we do it and forget it. I feel like this is when I was watching you guys, I got to be there on the last day of filming for realm and, I was just really struck by, was so funny because I came into it without some context. Without any context, holy shit. You jumped right in the middle of a very intense- There'd be a revelation and everyone would go, and I'd be like, but it was cool to go, these little details that maybe you would say something, George, or maybe another player,
00:55:28
Speaker
had so much significance in a way that a lot of times in improvised scenarios, it's all just kind of throwaway. And I just, you know it it gave me some clarity on like why this as an art form is so interesting. Cause it, it's, it's spontaneous, but it allows for the weight and the, the gravity of actually building something fantastic. And,
00:55:48
Speaker
That just seems like a, yeah, i think it's going to I think it's going to be more interesting than ever as we get just AI slop and, you know, algorithmic sort of stuff being force fed into our eyeballs.
00:56:01
Speaker
Well, I was making ah an observation last week because i was talking to some friends about the rise of D&D. You know, I think Stranger Things was kind of like ah a big inflection point. Because it was a nostalgia, but be a lot of people who were adults watching this and like, man, it reminds me when I was a kid. But, you know, I still have a group of friends that I play with. And I felt that conversation started happening more and more.
00:56:21
Speaker
And then you see something like Critical Role. You see um the fact that D20 sold out Madison Square Garden. Yeah, crano crazy. People like sold out one of the most famous arenas in the world to watch people play d and d You know, and it goes back to a conversation Kurt and I had about escapism and this want to have something that's that's different from our world around us. And and you're right, George, in saying like, you know, actors, more than anything, we want validation, but we want to become something other than ourselves in these moments. And I feel like something like a D&D and even Dread too, um just gives you a lot of chance to put on a character, put on a play, do something that's outside of yourself for a few hours and just being grossed in this world. And what I have to champion you on, George,
00:57:03
Speaker
is the way you not only like set up the stage, shut set up this world for us, but then the ways that you create these, like the NPCs, the characters I've watched you switch voices within five sentences of each character. Like it's, it's and unbelievable. but What comes out of your mouth? Yeah.
00:57:22
Speaker
I'm like, what? yeah You are such a phenomenal actor, dude. Like I genuinely am like, holy crap. And it's not just, I say this a lot when I'm, when I'm doing voice acting and working with voice artists, a lot of people think it's the voice. Your, your face and body transform. It is a, you are physicalizing these characters. And so, yeah, the voice comes out, but I just watch you just,
00:57:47
Speaker
And I'm like, it's so cool. Seriously, the first time I heard George make the sound of a cloaker in season zero, I thought he was possessed. I was like, do I have to believe in God again? Do I have to do an exorcism at this moment? What happened? Oh, it's it's a blackout flow state. I couldn't even tell you if that happened or not. I i i truly like will forget that that happened.
00:58:09
Speaker
yeah nick Nick, at one point, who was one of our players for Realm, I think I was doing some like three ladies ah gossiping together, and I did all three, just not thinking about it and moved past it, and Nick...
00:58:23
Speaker
cornered me after and was like, what the fuck was that? and What was that insane conversation you had with yourself? And I'm like, I i don't even remember having that conversation. I it's i yeah, I think I truly I don't think it's as purposeful as I wish I could claim it to be.
00:58:41
Speaker
I think it's just me getting really into it. You mean? I just like feel like I'm witnessing. To me, that is as, you know, as somebody who's still acting and creating characters still is sort of my first love. It's like that the best scenes or scene work or whatever I've ever done are always when I go, i have no idea what just happened.
00:59:03
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm deeply aware of it. And I go, here's how I think it went. it almost always is sort of this force thing. But when I kind of black out and go, I don't know, i just kind of, I just kind of went there. It is almost always when people were like, that was really interesting because I'm not aware of it.
00:59:19
Speaker
So I love that you pointed that out because it's a reminder that just being free is the best thing. Just letting yourself go there is is the best part of it. Did you guys study theater stuff in like college by any chance and do like scene study stuff? Did you oh your acting coaches ever or teachers talk about ah like concentration?
00:59:38
Speaker
When you're concentrated on like a task or something like that, like a lot more honest, like if you're thumbing through book or flattening a tie. Meisner, doing yeah doing an ex you know ah an object work or an invisible task or something like that. Yes, absolutely. Occupying yourself with something like allows so much to come out and allows you to listen because you are focused. And when something that you feel like you should listen to pipes up and you like you're you're doubly focused, right? And when you're playing a game master, there's a lot of stuff I'm keeping track of like behind the scenes. I've got like numbers and statistics up of creatures. There might be an effect present that you don't know about that. I'm like referencing the effects of whatever, but because half my brains on that, I don't really even think about the NPCs except for just like the feeling of being in them. And so if all I'm anchoring to is a feeling, I'm not like judging or crafting too hard. And maybe that's why it's quick for me because I'm,
01:00:34
Speaker
not worried about the distinctions being like super clean or like I'm just kind of letting dialogue fall out of me as I think about it and jumping to the feeling that I associate with it. So I feel like it's maybe just because I'm distracted. It makes me more focused almost. It's it's it yeah, that's a I haven't really it's hard to to analyze it because I again, I am not conscious for it kind of. um Well, I was going to say, if anyone was interested in you know becoming a dungeon master, like obviously you had your moments too, where you're like you're learning how to do this. So what would you say would be the entry point for someone who wants to get into this kind of storytelling? How can they you know make their version of being a dungeon master ah the most fruitful and ah personal, i would say? Yeah, I had the same exact question. Like, do you have guiding principles that you're like, here's sort of my my my ways to think about things that that allow yourself the freedom to to play and explore? I the exact same question, James. I think first, if you're if you're looking to play a game with your friends, my first thing is just play.
01:01:40
Speaker
Just brush up on the rules, learn how to play, be the person who's going to bring your friends to the table. You get to play characters as a DM. It's not unfun to DM. It's my favorite thing in the world. It's so fun to DM. Or GM or whatever. DM is kind of a Dungeons and Dragons specific term for dungeon master, game master, GM, whatever.
01:01:55
Speaker
um The second thing I would say is is sort of counterintuitive to being like super like creative. It's learn the rules pretty good. Like get comfortable with like knowing how the game operates. Watch some actual play content if you want to see combat flow. Because once you know the rules, you can think about them less. Yeah.
01:02:15
Speaker
And you can ah you know kind of adjudicate on the fly, even if you're not playing exactly rules as written, you're you're kind of understanding the logic of how the game works and it'll just keep flow up absolutely flawlessly. And then the other big thing is become an empathic sponge as best you can.
01:02:35
Speaker
Try to you don't have to worry about like, is everybody having fun? Because l ultimately, if somebody is going to have fun, it's their decision. You can't make someone have fun if they've decided they're not going to.
01:02:45
Speaker
But you can start to key into what people want by just listening real good. just start to catch the flow of the table, start to feel how the momentum is going. If the plan is going in a way that you don't anticipate, throw your plan away for versus one or however many players versus one, they outvoted you. They're right. That's how the story is going to go. And now it is your job to catch up to them and play with them.
01:03:11
Speaker
ah People who Lord over their players as a DM, you're, you're missing 70% game. i think, um that That is sort of like why Stranger Things is interpretation of D&D as like the DM is like the overlord figure who it's it's kind of weird. I think that that's how DMs are always portrayed. it it feels like that's kind of almost an example of the toxic character.
01:03:38
Speaker
dungeon master is like the one who's like, you didn't defeat my monster and you played wrong. and you know, it feels very silly. Get that guy out. Get them out of the basement. Get rid of them.
01:03:50
Speaker
I, it's so funny. You say that I was literally this past weekend. on Sunday, I was in Dallas teaching a workshop on how to build worlds in your auditions, basically like diminishing the the weight of trying to impress and more building and creating worlds. and And I literally like so much of what I was talking about was saying, learn, learn,
01:04:13
Speaker
learn the technicality, learn the rules so that they are so second nature. And that is so, it's just, it's just so foundational that then being bending it to your will and changing it and flexing it.
01:04:29
Speaker
You're like, I can go off track. I can go 10 miles off off the road, but I know exactly how I can get back there when I need to. And so it's just interesting hearing you frame. Yeah. frame, you know, role play in the same manner of like, know the rules so that you have that foundation so that you then have the freedom to improvise and still find your way back home. And like, it gives you a assurance, not because you're trying to do it exactly right, but you know, but then you have the confidence of being like, Now I can do whatever I want. yeah I just love that. it's I find the overlap between acting, performing, writing, whatever, and and what you're talking about. I'm like, this is the same thing. It's all it's all the same thing. It's so similar. And I was a musical theater performer for a little while, like all way through college into New York. And I left it to do basically this because it scratched the itch more often and with less anxiety for me. And i i think another big thing that ah it's just that as a DM, you're a witness. You are the official referee that when some action is performed in the collective imagination amongst all of you at the table, you're I said the notary before you are the notarizer to be like, yes, that happened. And here's why it happened. And here's how it happened. Here's some physics that you might not be privy to in this imagination that we all are sharing.
01:05:48
Speaker
You as a GM are physics. You are the players put their little finger. They put in the middle of the pool and you show them the ripples.
01:05:58
Speaker
This is how this is how that affected what is happening next. And here's why the thing that's about to happen next is going to happen because of what just happened. You know, what you get to be the person to show you. Here's where that action path just took us because, you know, the sandbox that you are. You built the sandbox that you're playing in.
01:06:16
Speaker
yeah I love that. that's you there Are there any defining, and no Realm spoilers here, but in previous campaigns, are there any defining moments that still resonate for you as like, that is an all-time, I can't believe that happened. Obviously, without context, it's hard to know what that means, but emotionally or... I could list thousand examples. I could list hundred things. It's so hard even come up with one. almost feel like I end up referencing the same one or two often because they're like easy to talk about. But like truly what cycles before my brain is like, I'm thinking of a brother and a sister who found a chest full of everything that they would need to completely change their life. Like it it was like a classic Tarantino golden light on the face chest. We never described what was in the thing.
01:07:06
Speaker
who realized that they were walking into a situation where they were almost certain to die. And so they walked away from it, went back home and opened a diner. And the person that took the chest to try to like bring it and get it home and brought it to their corporate overlords was betrayed and teleported into the sun.
01:07:22
Speaker
yeah So like, and and I think about that. I'm like, i i couldn't plan to any of that. That's player choices. And all I got to do was be like, here's the path we're walking on. This is crazy. I'm i'm thinking of. That's the coolest sounding. I want to watch that movie right now. and and the The scene that that was a hero clubs cluster muck where we fucking recorded the campaign and then released episodes one through four in reverse order.
01:07:47
Speaker
So you were like finding seeds that would be explained in the next episode in your listening experience. And then, Oh, it's like memento. Exactly. absolutely Yes. It was like a Pulp Fiction e kind of thing where it's like, we're bouncing around on time. Episodic chapter. That's so fun. So like, yeah, that, that campaign ended in like with a happy scene with a breakfast at a diner after like this horrible, tragic betrayal. I couldn't never have planned that in a billion years. ah There's like ah an old, i think maybe the moment I realized I wanted to do this as a job. And i talk about this one a lot. My buddy Nick was playing like an old gunslinger character. Their mission was to kill the devil. ah He raised, he rises from the dead every 666 years, some you know bullshit like that.
01:08:34
Speaker
ah And what happened was essentially he got sent to hell mentally and ah aged seven years in a second and was already elderly. Wow.
01:08:49
Speaker
died not knowing who he was after like kind of being like guilt ridden for all the horrible things he'd done. He'd forgotten all of those things. And after they killed the devil, his two compatriots sat next to him and waited for the sun to rise as he passed away from old age.
01:09:07
Speaker
And I'm i'm talking for people in a laundry room at 11 PM at night, crying into microphones like, and And I mean, we funeral in the moment where people were sniffling.
01:09:21
Speaker
ah And then you go back and score that moment that was like fully honest. No one is acting, but everybody's doing a character voice. It's just like there's, you know, not to bring it back to Survivor, but there is something about When you're watching a D&D game in an actual play, you're watching two shows at the same time, which is why I think the long form of it all isn't so much of a limiter for some people. You are watching both the narrative that everybody is telling and you were also watching the reaction content of everybody at the table also watching the story with you.
01:10:00
Speaker
There's a reason YouTube reaction stuff is like a whole content genre. And D&D takes that whole genre and mashes it into narrative. And all of a sudden you have a marriage of both witnessing and creation. And it's just like kind of unreplicatable.
01:10:17
Speaker
I don't know any other thing that does this. it's It's you can do improv and be dramatic and not have everybody want to crawl out of their skin. there There is some kind of like if you didn't like a comedy show and somebody like did a hard drama turn in an improv show, you'd be like, that guy's not invited back. Right. Like, right Craig took it too far. But if you're at a table with the collaborative performers and you all kind of agreed on like the kind of genre you're all playing in and something like that magical happens in a moment, I don't think there is any art form that I know of or that I'm they're very familiar with. That creates the same experience. I'm i'm addicted to it. i'm I'm addicted to witnessing it.
01:11:00
Speaker
and mean yes That's why I love like the GM role. I get to introduce people to this thing and watch them sweep it away. without spoiling realm, I mean, just being there in the last day, I was moved by a it was really funny and there was genuine it's catharsis and tears. And I was like, this is crazy. Cause I think for, for people maybe on the outside and I would consider myself until recently, somewhat on the outside, my, my sense of it is, oh, it's like, you know, fantasy and swords and, and casting spells and, you know, like, you know, I've seen that. I've seen that in Lord of the Rings or whatever. And it can be, but it I think my eyes have been open to how diverse and wild and like what you just said about a diner and you go, what? that's in That's in a tabletop role-playing game? And so it really can be anything you want it to be. And that's something I'm only beginning to understand. So I think that's, it's a cool invitation maybe to people who go, oh, I'm not, you know, fantasy is not really my like,
01:12:01
Speaker
i search around, you know? if If you took a pie chart and took like the genres of all of the campaigns I've played, fantasy would maybe be like 15 20%. fifteen or twenty percent Interesting. Interesting.
01:12:13
Speaker
um So but before we wrap things up question, and this isn't, this can be absent of things you want to plug, but with the success that you've had of taking a passion of yours and morphing it into these really amazing projects that people love, where do you want to take your talents going forward? And what do you see like other other things that you would like to achieve or where do you want to go with, with your, with your work? Oh man.
01:12:36
Speaker
um I'd love to work consistently. That'd be nice. Don't we all brother? Love to pay the bills. love to pay to the bills um i I've loved developing new shows, but I really at my core love Dungeons and Dragons and Dread and Daggerheart and Wraith. I've never played Call of Cthulhu, but know I love it. And all of these tabletop role playing games, I love playing these games. I love running these games. I want to keep running as many games as I can. so my hope is just that I find avenues to be able to find space, ah like literal physical space to record things like this and find people who are technically gifted enough that my limited knowledge of that kind of thing can feel i can feel more confident. So I guess that's a major goal of mine.
01:13:24
Speaker
And I just want to like tell stories with people I like telling stories with all the time. And I probably YouTube is my thought. um And until I have the ability to actually present stories on YouTube more consistently, like realms amazing. We have this incredible Kickstarter. Thank God it all worked out so well. So excited to be able to do more of it. um But it is it's a hard thing to organize and accomplish. So finding a path to making that more consistent. And I think that path is probably about getting on YouTube, learning the landscape because you got to learn new things. You can't you always got to learn new things. I probably got to learn how to video edit. I taught myself how to audio edit. You know what i mean?
Future Projects and Promotions
01:14:04
Speaker
You got to keep teaching yourself.
01:14:06
Speaker
I'll probably just like try to put as much of my DM GM insights on YouTube as I can to like help a bunch of new people learn how to be that role because, you know, you spread the seeds out and then it grows. And before you know it, like there's more D&D audience because more people have been introduced to it and then we're just growing our industry. like at literally the roots.
01:14:31
Speaker
ah So yeah, I think that's the path I want to take. where I'm going to go a little bit more instructional with it for a while, be able to create like the beautiful little stories that I get to when I'm privileged enough to do so. And then eventually, hopefully I'm just pumping out fun stories with my friends 24 seven every week, all the time.
01:14:50
Speaker
I go, there is like, not not that this, I can predict the future, but I'm like, I could totally see a world where, you know, there is like a studio that you're able to just have full control over that you can build out sets for different games. And like, you know, it's as simple as like walking in, turning on the light, sitting down and just continuing. I'm like, man, we'll do it that is a space as a functional sort of creative space.
01:15:13
Speaker
That's, that I'm manifesting that. That would be sweet. Me too. Let's both manifest together. I, people do it and and you can do it low budget. Like, like ah there's some folks who I know who ah ah shout out some folks over at tabletop notch who like they have their own little studio that they like cobbled together themselves. It looks amazing. And they did it all by themselves. And then there's people like, ah you know, dimension 20 and critical role. They have beautiful sets devoted to this stuff. So there's, there's lots of room in between for a cozy place to play games and feel,
01:15:46
Speaker
yeah in communion with each other absolutely but shout out to dynasty typewriter who's allowed us to film realm uh season zero and one so far they're really awesome um all right well george uh first of all thank you so much for talking with us today sorry i talked a little ears off but thanks for having me yes it's been great this is like the the perfect the perfect sense of like what we want to do with this of taking things that we're interested in and how do they affect how we're thinking about things. So genuinely like ah loved it. It was such a good conversation. So fun to be here. Thank you guys. um How can people find you? And also what are some projects you would like to plug for them to see?
01:16:23
Speaker
Oh yeah. You can, um you can find me at ah mostly Instagram at DM George underscore Primavera. um I just put my website together, George Primavera.com, which can take you to some projects that I'm working on. ah And then like the biggest things I would point people towards are Instagram, at realm D and D on YouTube, go watch realm. Uh, season zero is up six episodes. We're really proud of with 12 more on the way, ah coming this fall. So you don't have to wait too long.
01:16:51
Speaker
a project I worked on for many years, uh, called hero club podcast, which is hero club podcast or hero club pod.com. It's all audio anthology D and D games that are all of the crosstalk is cut. So we took that reaction e part kind of away and had it just be people narrating and doing voices and we do lots of genre.
01:17:11
Speaker
I sound design the shit out of these things, especially later. i I'm very proud of my sound designing.
Closing Remarks and Contact Information
01:17:17
Speaker
ah So go check out Hero Club. And then if you're curious, you can see some of my stuff on Smosh. If you look up Smosh versus or Smosh versus dread.
01:17:27
Speaker
And if you're in the Los Angeles area, check out We're All Gonna Die, which should have some shows coming up in the fall, which is a it's basically D&D with the Jenga Tower, this game called Dread, and we play it live on stage, improvised, but also fully cued and lit and music and scored. And it's insane and unreal and unforgettable experience if you're in the theater for me included. So go check that out around Los Angeles. We're going to be announcing those shows probably in a few months.
01:17:54
Speaker
Incredible. Amazing. um All right. Well, once again, George Primavera, thank you so much. You are the best. And I'm so glad you took the time to talk to us. Thank you, guys. Anyone that's listening, ah you can always reach us at SoWhatAreYouIntoPod at gmail.com. And then on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, SoWhatAreYouIntoPod.
01:18:13
Speaker
Hey, we answered emails finally. So we're going to do it again. Just send us anything you need. um And our our little catchphrase that we say at the end of every show is... Stay curious. Stay curious. Stay curious.