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A Conversation with Christian Cooper
942 Plays2 months ago
Join Dexter and Jason on this fantastic episode where we welcome our FIRST-ever guest on the podcast! In this episode, we are so excited to chat with best-selling author Christian Cooper about all things birding and bird joy! We cover experiences from his books, “Better Living Through Birding, Notes from a Black Man in the Natural World.”, and his amazing Emmy-winning TV show, Extraordinary Birder with Christian Cooper. How does Christian find his “bird joy”? How does he feel about the movement of many new Black and brown birders in the community to create new space? We get into all things the experience of being a birder today, some of our grounding experiences with each other on Little St. Simon’s island in Georgia, how we contextualize our own birding journeys, blushing from unsolicited compliments from folks in rainbow unicorn shirts, and even the decision by the AOS to change all eponymous bird names. Christian gave a fantastic talk at the formerly San Diego Audubon (now San Diego Bird Alliance), which covered all 12 points of opposition to #BirdNamesForBirds. We also are so honored to discuss Christian’s new book, “The Urban Owls, How Flaco and Friends Made the City Their Home” which releases on Feb 18th.
Take a listen and enjoy this special conversation with Christian Cooper!
Be sure to follow our podcast on Instagram at @thebirdjoypod and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
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Transcript
Introduction to Bird Joy Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the bird joy podcast. My name is Dexter Patterson and I am Jason Hall. And this podcast is for all the bird nerd homies out there that want to find a little bird joy. So welcome, welcome. Welcome. Are you all ready for some bird joy? Because today we have an extra dose of it because we have a special guest joining us
Guest Introduction: Christian Cooper
00:00:21
Speaker
today. We have Christian Cooper joining us today on the bird joy podcast. Let's go Christian. Welcome. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, guys. Great to be here. So excited. So excited. I don't know what to do with myself now. You you can laugh. You can laugh, and you can cry, and then let it all become a part of you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Christian, i've I've seen you a few times over the years. You've come down to Philly and blessed us with your presence and your and your knowledge and some various forms. I feel like the Pope.
00:00:54
Speaker
yeah mean honestly i i be honest i looked I looked forward to you coming more than I did the Pope. A lot less traffic and
Christian's Emmy Win and TV Show
00:01:01
Speaker
more birding. so yeah So you know for folks that don't know, Christian is a bestselling author, TV host, and an all around amazing birder. So his show, Extraordinary Birder, if you haven't seen on Disney Plus or Nat Geo, definitely check that out. And you know I don't know how much you flex with this, but Emmy Award winner as well, right? Let's make sure we talk about that. I mean, you know, doing some guns too. So he could definitely do some, he looked, he looked good. He looked good when I saw the picture and I saw the speech, I was like, I can't believe I know this human being. This is
Christian's Impact on Birding Communities
00:01:38
Speaker
amazing. So, um, just kudos to you and to everyone that has supported you and your family and otherwise, because you really are setting some really good, I'll say mile markers for people to follow in terms of their journey in terms of
00:01:52
Speaker
how they express their desire to be connected with birds and nature. And more importantly, the the the communities that probably need them the most. So, man, big flowers to you. Well, thank you so much. And yeah I got to share that Emmy with everybody who worked on the show. So, you know, we we all worked really hard on it. And and hopefully, you know, it it brought some new people into burning.
00:02:11
Speaker
Absolutely. I know it did. I know it did. you know I can't tell you how many, even people in my family, people in a birding club that were just kind of just blown away, just to see somebody that looked like them on that TV screen, traveling all over the world. It it's just oh it was was one of those moments where every week I'm just smiling ear to ear because I'm like,
00:02:34
Speaker
Look at him. Look at him traveling all over the freaking, is that a nae nae? What is going on here? you know and you You can imagine how I felt because as the stereotypical New Yorker in that I don't drive. So all of a sudden they're like, let's go here and let's go here and let's go here. And yeah, we'll take you every place you need to go to see the president. I'm like, must I?
00:02:55
Speaker
so
00:02:58
Speaker
You know, I'm thinking about this, guys. Today is Sunday, October 13th. This is literally around the time we were in Georgia together a couple years ago, because it was October. Oh, yeah. That's right. And you and a bunch of people, Christian, rally together to bring just a bunch of us from all over the country together in one place for a few days, just to talk about birding and to connect and to network. And, you know, Jason and I, we talk about this. We had been homies on the IG for a while before we met in Georgia and Little Saint Simon's Island. And then we ended up being roommates. So we not only get to meet for the first time there,
00:03:41
Speaker
Because of the Blackbirders retreat, we started thinking about collaboration and what that could look like for him and I, his club and my club.
Inspiration Behind the Bird Joy Podcast
00:03:51
Speaker
And the idea of a podcast came up. So I will just want to say thank you because not only did you bring us together for the first time in real life, as we sat there that night, the last night that we were on the island, I remember all of us in that barn together. And there was a lot of just brain power. being passed around in that building that day. And we just sat in this circle and everybody sharing their thoughts about how we can try to move this burning community forward. And I remember you just saying, I want you all just to connect with at least one person and do something. And do something. And after that retreat, Jason and I said, we're going to do something. And I said, how about that something be a podcast? That's literally how the Bird Joy podcast was birthed, was at that retreat. To have you on as our first guest, I'm getting a little jost up, because I'm a little emotional about this. Keep it together. Keep it together, Dex. I am. Y'all know me. I am an emotional guy. To literally have you as our first guest, season two of our podcast, letting people know that this Joy thing, this Joy train is still moving forward. I just want to say thank you. It really does mean a lot to us.
00:05:02
Speaker
You're giving me way too much credit. I was just one of several people who was trying to get us all together. and it but You're right. It didn't make tremendous connections. Huge nod to Wendy Paulson who gave us the run of the island to do our thing. Absolutely. Just some amazing moments. I remember specifically when we were all at that um the the sole remaining slave quarters on the island and we went to that. Squat house. And I think even for Wendy, it was eye-opening because, you know, she'd looked at it, you know, objectively. But here were people for whom it was very real. You know, these were our potentially our ancestors. And so I think that shifted what it was like for for her even. Wendy, for for those who don't know, Wendy you Paulson is white. And then there was another moment when we went to the we had a beach moment. and I was going to the beach and I was in my swimsuit and I had this book I had been reading about. It was written by the wife of a slave owner on that island who had owned that island had been part of his holdings. He was like the biggest slave owner in that part of the world, if not the country. And as I'm walking down to the beach, the mosquitoes are eating me alive because I'm just in a swimsuit. I'm whacking the mosquitoes with the book, and I look down the book, and I realize this book about the slaves on that island who might have been my ancestors, because I later found out that my mother my my grandmother's side was Georgia. um a came for Their people came from Georgia. And it's covered with the blood of someone potentially descended from these slaves as we go out to the Atlantic Ocean and I'm looking across the Atlantic Which we were brought across and there's nothing between me and the rest of the ocean and my brain is just about to explode Wow know so It was wild. yeah That whole trip was was absolutely amazing and um we all did a lot of thinking after that, right? And we did, you know, and your continued exposure with your book and your TV show just kind of kept that conversation going, not for us, but for a lot of other people, not just for us, should I say. And I'm wondering like you've kind of a few years out now from that and that moment in 2020 and you've had from what I can tell on social media and otherwise some really incredible moments of joy. What moment do you mean? Oh, I mean, all of them. I mean, I mean, I can I can tell you mine. Right. Mine was. watching you freak out over a black bernie and warbler just a hundred yards from where that event happened with in color birding club this spring, right? Which I've talked about on the podcast and getting to witness you who have seen that bird so many times stop all conversation and you were able to hear it while we all were yapping, you know, walking up the trail. And then it was everybody's reaction to your joy.
00:07:40
Speaker
that it just it just emanated through them immediately. It was like a sunburst just, poof and everybody was like, oh my goodness, Christian is trying to show us this black. This is his favorite bird. He just heard it. We got to run around this corner. you know Who cares about the black and white warbler? It was wild, right? and ah And I wonder, you have a lot of those moments now where I'm sure like people bring you to help them go birding, help them talk about the accessibility of birding to different communities. Has that become part of a standard part of how you find your joy again since that incident?
00:08:10
Speaker
Yes and no. And I say no because I never lost my joy from that incident. It's just not possible. And I hear that kind of frequently. People who refer to that incident said, oh, I'm so sorry about your trauma. And my reaction is, so what trauma? It would take a lot more than that to traumatize me. She just doesn't wield that kind of power. And you know maybe it's just the thick skin we develop as people of color going through a world that was not imagined or built for us.
00:08:37
Speaker
but we're reimagining it and rebuilding it but nonetheless you know you go through that world with a fairly thick skin when you put your arm out in the cab doesn't stop you know and you know someone is following you through the supermarket but not anybody else you can. Get yourself turned into a knot every single time those things happen because you won't make it through the day, let alone a year, let alone life. so you know Maybe it's that kind of thick skin that it it didn't I can't say it just rolled off me. i mean That was pretty dramatic and I was pretty rattled for you know certainly the rest of the morning and and probably most of the rest of the day.
00:09:14
Speaker
but No, I wasn't traumatized and i it's funny how often I go, I've been back to that spot since and I don't even realize it because I don't care. you know that That spot has so many more memories attached to it, like a black burnie and a warble I saw there or the morning warbler from 10 years ago that came out that very spot wow and put on a display for everybody to see for a week. That kind of stuff is way more, leaves much more of an impression. Yeah, I love that you mentioned not love in a sense of like, it's a good thing, but I love that you brought it up this sense of us as black men having to have thick skin, just living our lives. Whereas this like, you've gone through so much, you know, in your life, Christian, and growing up as a gay black man in America, I'm sure you've dealt with tons of hate, probably more hate than that lady gave you in the park that day. To be honest, who knows?
00:10:09
Speaker
There's so many levels to it, and you mentioned the thick skin, but what I find in those thick skin moments is burning helps me keep my joy, yeah right? where Where it's just like it gets it gets me back on track where I say, you know what? As crappy as that morning, like you said, maybe my morning sucked or the rest of that day sucked, but I got back to it because I went back to that spot because that morning warbler, that black burning and warbler, Can you just talk a little bit about how burning helps you deal with the world as a whole and helps keep you focused on joy and the good things in your life? Sure. 100%.
Birding as Joy and Healing for Marginalized Communities
00:10:45
Speaker
I talk about it in in my book because let's take that moment right after it was all over and we've gone our separate ways.
00:10:54
Speaker
you know and i'm sure i'm like i said i was rattle and i'm thinking oh are the cops gonna roll up on me or what's gonna happen what happened was i've decided quite consciously that i'm gonna go back to burning that's what i came here for and As I'm walking through the park, the park is working its magic. I'm amongst the green leaves. The sunlight is gorgeous. There's red American red stars singing, find them. They're flashing their orange and against the black in their tails. and I'm seeing these things as I'm walking towards the park exit because I was on my way out anyway. And I'm like, oh yeah, okay, I'm calming down now. My blood pressure is going somewhere south of stroke inducing. um And that's been true sort of for my whole life is that.
00:11:42
Speaker
you know As you said, you know growing up black and queer in the all-white, then all-white world world of birding and in the very conservative environment of Long Island um back in the 70s, yeah, there was a lot to feel awful about. But when I was birding, I forgot about that, at least for a little while.
00:12:02
Speaker
you know Your focus has to be outside yourself or you're not going to see birds. so you know I'm in nature. Nature is working. It's magic. I'm being super attentive because it's not just like a walk. You're not just walking. You're out there and you've got to be putting yourself out amongst everything around you if you want to see the birds. You've got to be listening. You've got to be looking for a particular kind of motion. and As you do that, You're not focused on you. You're not focused on, Oh God, I'm a queer kid. My life is over. You know, you're not focused on, Oh my God, why haven't I ever run into any other black people burning? None of that. Not for a little while anyway. yeah And so that was, that is whatever. And you know, those are my, those were my specific issues when I was a kid. Whatever is weighing down on your mind for a little while, it goes away. And you get to recognize that there's a larger world around you that you are a part of and that you get to enjoy. And and that you're in the process of enjoying it in that moment. And that's really, ah that's incredibly healing. I mean, Tama Watts talks a lot about the healing power of nature, and she is 1000% correct. It is incredibly healing. And that's why I wish more black people did it, because we need the healing.
00:13:14
Speaker
You have to go through the days being bulletproof so that nothing gets through our thick skin. you know you You need to mend a little bit. And particularly birding because birds are the ultimate symbol of freedom. And what people with our history need birds and need that symbol of freedom more than us.
00:13:31
Speaker
I feel like we're at church right now. I got to get myself together. I, you know, that is is so well put. And I got to, I got to encourage people cause we didn't mention it yet. But if you, if you want to learn more about that, uh, Christian's book, better living through birding notes from a black man in the natural world, it's a bestselling book, trust me. And I, and I got to put a plug in. If you get the audio version is even better because you hear his voice and you can get some of the inflection is absolutely tremendous. I wanted Morgan Freeman, but he was. I got to say, man, you did a great job. I mean, I ate that book up. I literally, if I was anywhere where I didn't have to listen to another human being, my AirPods ran and I was what's next, what's going on. um And I think the cool part is it gives everybody else the ability to see how their own lives
00:14:22
Speaker
Instructure can also be comparable in terms of the you know these are my formidable years this is when i started to like nature this is what things that i've gone through my own traumas my relationship with my family and then they take their own inventory and be like oh yeah like i you know i it really helped me say like oh man what i went to when i was eight watching my parents get the worst violence in my household. and All this other stuff and I'm outside looking at birds. You know, I'm in Jackson, Mississippi pissed off because I have to live in Jackson, Mississippi when I came from California and I miss my mother and I'm outside looking at thousands of what I think were red wing blackbirds at the time.
00:14:58
Speaker
roosting in this massive bamboo patch that we had in our backyard. right And I say, man, we are not devoid of these experiences. right Christian is showing us how his played a role in his life, and we can do ours. And I and i and i wonder, now that you are one of the big faces of birding, do you find those yeah you are do you do you find those smaller moments still to kind of connect with it? Do you not get enough of them? Or is somebody always pulling you to come do an event and fly across the country?
00:15:27
Speaker
you know People are pulling and that's okay. I'll i'll let myself be pulled. you know If I don't want to let myself be pulled, I will but you know politely decline. But the moments, I don't know, maybe because I've been burning for a long time, the moments come when they come. I'm not constantly out there burning. It's not all the time for me. it's Well, it is, but it isn't.
00:15:49
Speaker
what do i mean What do I mean by that? For example, I will frequently choose to go to the gym first thing in the morning because that's when the gym is most empty and I can get my workout done rather than go birding. But you know what? I got to walk through this park on the way to the gym. No, as I'm walking through the park, my ears are sorting and I'm like, oh, the white-throated sparrows have arrived, and and the golden black ginglets, because I can hear them as I walk into the park. and Then I'm like, well, I got to make a note to come back. The other day, i was ah after a run, I was ah doing planks because it takes a lot when you're over 60 to hold everything together. so i'm like
00:16:26
Speaker
I gotta be good about doing my planks. So I'm doing planks up on the roof and I hear this little pip and I'm like, okay, that was not a warbler chip. I'm like, but it wasn't like one of the house sparrows or the house finches. I just, so my head said, pay attention. And I stopped the plank and I looked up and there on my roof, my little rooftop in the middle of Manhattan was an Eastern Phoebe. And I was like, we were just, I was so excited. I was like, so, you know, burning, it never stops. And yet at the same time, I'm not necessarily making a special point of it at any time today. Just today I was doing, I don't even know what I was doing, but I was down here in the apartment and through the window, I heard. all
00:17:06
Speaker
yeah And I'm like, right then.
00:17:10
Speaker
it just For me to get at it. So I knew this one I had to let go but there have been previous times because of we do get them every once in a blue moon here in in Manhattan in my neighborhood. And the last one that came I heard it as I was working in my apartment and I ran upstairs and I grabbed my binoculars and I knocked over a glass of water and it shattered all over the floor and I did not care and I ran upstairs and I got that one. Mm, love it. Just pay attention. My grandfather would always say that. So to hear you say that, those are wise words. Those are wise words. Because it's amazing what we see when we simply just pay attention. And you don't have to have your binoculars or a camera or anything in those moments when you're paying attention. We're still birding. We're still birding.
00:17:54
Speaker
I highly recommend anybody to develop their ear because your ears won't turn off. you know so Your ears will give you red flags all the time like, pay attention, pay attention. Yeah. yeah but so To come back to your question question, Jason, do I still find time for those moments? A thousand percent, they come whenever they come at unexpected times and they're they're in many ways the most glorious. like Finally in Eastern Phoebe, upstairs in my roof garden was just like, I'm like, oh, I'm so happy.
00:18:25
Speaker
I went up there the other day and there was a song sparrow. And are common. But this was a migrant who was stopping over in my roof garden where I deliberately plant native plants and let the wildflowers go to seed rather than dead end. So it looks ugly. But this herd was refueling on the but the seeds that I let the wildflowers turn into. And I was like, yes, proof of concept. My getting on sparrows are refueling. I've helped this bird get south. You know, so it's just you get joy in all kinds of ways from birds.
00:18:55
Speaker
ah That's absolutely amazing and and I'm glad you put it that way just to remind people that like sometimes you can't let these moments come to you, right? You don't have to force it and like Dexter said as long as you're as long as you're paying attention, right? They will find you and we were just having a conversation around ah a historic house here in Philly that growing a little meadow that they're letting the flowers go to seed and the people that work there never saw the birds and they, you know, we showed them an Eastern Phoebe and the white-throated sparrows and they're like, why are they here? And I'm like, because you have this meadow and all these flowers and they're starting to go to seed and they left all the leaves down and the toweys are ripping up the leaves and looking for bugs. And like their minds were blown that they could actually contribute that way. And it's so great to hear that you still get that kind of joy from your efforts on your rooftop, right in the middle of doing planks, which I don't do, don't, don't do planks. You've ever seen me, you know, I don't do planks. um and I would gladly stop planks to go birdie. I would gladly stop anything to go birdie. Planks and birdie. Planks and birdie. Yeah, no. And I will say, I went back to my planks after. Good for you. Good for you. You just set in the example for all of us. Yeah, yes. You mentioned how you go to a certain spot and you can remember a bird.
00:20:10
Speaker
Oh, 10 years ago I got the morning warbler here or a you know um Jason and I were having conversations where I'll go to places and I will remember where I seen this bird or that bird and I will spend more time in those spots at those locations because of those memories.
00:20:26
Speaker
yeah so And because of those stories, those are usually the stories that I end up telling. And when I think about you becoming an Emmy award-winning TV personality and a bestselling author, it makes me think as a communicator, as somebody that teaches students about visual storytelling and storytelling as a whole, did you always see the connection between storytelling and birding, or did that just kind of evolve naturally for
Connection Between Storytelling and Birding
00:20:52
Speaker
you?
00:20:52
Speaker
I think it's a confluence of two of my interests. So I can't say that it now it necessarily is something that will happen for anyone, but for me, because storytelling is in my blood and burning is in my blood, it was inevitable that I would sort of commingle the two, um whether that's in the comic book I wrote after, quote unquote, the incident, or whether it's in the way I wrote my memoir, because I will confess that I don't read memoir.
00:21:19
Speaker
So I really had no idea you know how do people put together a memoir and finally what I i just did was I took my own approach in that I use the story technique storytelling techniques I learned working in comics at Marvel and use those to sort of shape the narrative you know and and give a little impetus to each chapter. It's harder Because, you know, you can't make things up like you do with the comic book. It's, you know, what happened is what happened. But the way you tell it and the way you shape the story can can make it more make some things more prominent or more interesting. And that's what I was trying to do, you know, when I when I wrote my book. So I don't think there's necessarily an inherent connection between storytelling and birding, but there was for me. Love it. Yeah. I think you actually did a good job of linking those two things together for a lot of us. That's another example that you're, that's your book and your, and your show put out there in the world. And I, you know, I gotta say I wouldn't be mad if you wrote a, you know, if you wrote a comic around conservation superheroes for burning or a comic where the superheroes were birds, you know, like, you know,
00:22:17
Speaker
I wouldn't be mad at it, you know, who's a man yeah whatever you want to call it. Like it can be like a really bad take on Captain America, but for birds, you know, I don't know, or, um, uh, captain, of the captain planet, captain planet. it Yeah. Remember, I'm still remember the theme song in my head.
00:22:35
Speaker
Yeah, that's absolutely amazing. And I and i wonder um when you look back at at the the book and the and and the TV show, and um I know the moments that impacted me the most in both of those, but there is there is there something that when you think back on putting those things together and the conversations you've had with about them, are there any things that always come to the top of mind? Like the stories that like if you want someone to get the best impression from you of those things, is their particular story or episode or moment that you'd want them to know about?
00:23:03
Speaker
Yeah, um I would say because there were a lot of really for me doing it amazing moments putting the show together and I hope that came through in the show. um There was a moment in Hawaii where I who pride myself on my Vulcan heritage you know my ability to keep my emotions under tight control. And I actually choked up filming a scene in Hawaii where the Nenes were being released and rejoining the flock. And there was just something so magical about that moment. Or when I was on top of the ah George Washington Bridge, I mean, literally on top of the George Washington Bridge, and the Peregrine Falcon female is zooming through the superstructure of the bridge. screaming her head off because we're in her realm and she's not having it and you get it was it was mind-blowing so you know there's moments like this ah like that like those but i think the the one episode chapter that was most significant to me was going to alabama and the reason i say that is because you know i mentioned that some of my people came from georgia i only found that out fairly recently um that was my dad's mother's family was was georgia but the what we had known for quite some time is that my dad's father's side of the family they all came from alabama and you know i'm a northern boy for several generations now you know i just a new yorker and the idea of you know going out to the deep south my reaction was always like my people left there for a reason Yeah. So I was always like, you know, really trepidatious about going down there, maybe wrongly, maybe for good reasons. But the bottom line is I had the opportunity to go down there um in the tender welcoming arms of Alabama Audubon. And I thought, you know what, I'm not going to have a better chance to actually see. where my people came from. So I went down and it was such an interesting revelatory experience where birds and civil rights history and family history all came together and collided in surprising and interesting ways that I really wanted to recreate that experience for the show. And that's what we did with the Alabama episode. so If there was one thing I had to pick out as a standout, I would say it was it would be that Alabama episode. Yeah, and that that episode is constantly on my mind too, and in terms of planning a trip down there to get onto the Joe Farm and hang out with the homies down there. because i When I left the South, the only reasons I would go back were for my for my family, just incredibly beautiful family down there in Mississippi.
00:25:26
Speaker
And, um, you know, I didn't do a lot of birding when I was down there as a kid, other than like some little exploring in my backyard. So I almost kind of want to go and repurpose myself to that cause. That's really what that episode did for me is like, Hey, I can, you know, I've buried it down there a little bit. I went from my, my, my grandmother's funeral services and.
00:25:43
Speaker
you know i had ah a really sweet moment down there but it it was still kinda like i was in the middle of a forest looking at a northern parula i was like still started to feel like hey maybe i shouldn't be here by myself but that's why i kinda wanna go down with the homies right i wanna be with that understand that perspective and i think that's a lot of what your episode brought through is like you won't be by yourself right if you find the right the right community. down And that is exactly one reason why I went down in the tender welcoming arms of Alabama Audubon and I went down the first time. so That's awesome. Yeah, and I love that you bring up Alabama and your family history and Jason's thinking about you know his family in Mississippi. my I have family in Mississippi and Memphis and Tennessee down south and I didn't do a ton of birding down south either as a kid, but now when I go south, I get really excited to go birding. um so it's it's it's So it's so cool to kind of see it come full circle. And when I start thinking about you, Christian, and we talked about the impact you had on us, you're a role model for a lot of underrepresented communities in the outdoors. How does it feel to inspire like that new generation of diverse birders because After that incident, Jason and I started clubs and people all over the country started doing things like telling people, we out here, like like really kind of broadcasting to the world, like, hey, we exist. And if you see us in the woods, don't look at us funny. We belong here. This is our happy place. um We're just burning. And you mentioned you were just burning. So you wanted to give back to burning. How does it feel to know that, you know, that moment that did shake you up, how does it feel to know that that moment led to so much in our community and when when we're thinking about burning? It's overwhelming. um You know, every once in a while I'm like, really? i I mean, I remember when Jason told me, oh, I started in color birding, you know, when I'd gone to Philly and he said, and we had a moment together where he was walking me back to, to give me a ride in his car. And he said, Oh, well, I started in color birding because of you and what happened with the incident. I'm like, wait, what?
00:27:46
Speaker
Are you serious? it just It always catches me aback and and i'm I'm thrilled that all of this has come out of what potentially was so negative. um so I'm excited about that. It is, like I said, a little overwhelming. I'm like, okay, you get that I'm just a birder, right?
00:28:04
Speaker
know But on the other hand, I also recognize that there's a certain responsibility on me now that maybe there wasn't before. And I just try to live up to it as best I can. We appreciate you for that. We really do. Yeah, certainly do. Certainly do. But I hope you keep getting super famous for various reasons. I'm gonna continue to talk you up regardless. Well, I will say there was one really interesting thing that happened just yesterday. I was walking down my own block and there was a guy walking towards me. You know, I was a strongly built burly guy, but he had on this t-shirt that was like a unicorn's head with a rainbow shooting out the back. If you have any familiarity with iconography, that's a surest fire sign of a queer person's raven, their queer flag. I just smiled and I said, oh, I like your shirt. He smiled back and he said, I like your work. I was like, wait, what? Wow. I love that. I was like, oh. I like your work. That was really nice. That was really nice. Yes, somebody made you blush. I made you blush out there happens to me sometimes too. And I'd be like, no, I'm just a birder. Yeah. But that, but that, that sounds like, to me, that sounds like you are getting this return on investment in these small moments that also contribute to your joy. Right. Like I'm sure there were people that knew who you were before the incident that you influenced. I know there were children that you took out regularly every year. I know there were bird clubs you influence. You're with the New York city Audubon or New York city bird alliance now. And so that's got to be cool to get those little tokens of joy, just kind of unplanned and people are kind of just reaffirming for you that like the way you're approaching it and your sister, kudos to your sister for making you put the story out there when it first happened. She's the one who made it go wide. She's the one who put it on black Twitter. She was like, yeah, yeah, which is a very powerful place before Elon Musk bought it. Yeah, exactly. So I would say that's got to be now a new way for you to fill up your cup, which is something we talk about when we go birding is that when we're done, we are on fire. We're so full of love and joy and like that's got to feel great for you.
00:30:14
Speaker
It's 100% true. It feels wonderful. There's one downside, which is now I can't go out looking like a schlap. I've got to like, I gotta, I can't like just throw on whatever and have my hair be all messy. Cause I'm like, God knows if someone's going to recognize me. Oh, you can snap a picture, throw it on his Instagram. You know, I had a selfie together. yeah yeah ah Now, every time I see Christian, I'm like, man, I got to go back to the gym. gotta I got to, I got to get my life together. Uh, so it gives me, it gives me great joy to see that like people recognize your work. And one thing I, we wanted to talk about here today was, um, the bird names for birds controversy, right? Just to kind of pivot a little bit. And you recently have have given some, some talks and one of them was actually recorded, uh, I think it was at the San Diego Audubon. Well, now there's San Diego bird Alliance.
00:31:07
Speaker
San Diego bird alliance. Kudos. They were. They were. San Diego Audubon back then. And yes, this was at the San Diego bird festival. Yes. Yeah. And and if folks don't know, um, if you haven't heard in previous episodes, right, the American ornithological society had made a decision to remove all honorific names from, from birds in particular, because a lot of them are named after pretty racist and awful
Discussion on Changing Bird Names
00:31:27
Speaker
people. Uh, and at least in the history of North America and the United States, and they decided to remove all the names because who wants to be in the business of trying to figure out who was more or less racist or more or less bad.
00:31:37
Speaker
um That's not what a birding organization needs to do. There are a lot of folks that agree with that decision. um There is ah ah say a smaller group of folks that don't. And you gave an interesting talk at the San Diego Bird Alliance around those 12 reasons that people do that. And you had just really great rebuttals to all of them that kind of thanks for some conversation. have you have you Number one, have you gotten a lot of pushback on that from anyone? Or is there any one particular point that you made that people seem to take issue with the most at all?
00:32:06
Speaker
I haven't gotten a lot of pushback. What I tend to get is, for example, when I give a modified version of that speech just like a week ago at the American Orthological Society's annual meeting, the response was, frankly, a little bit flabbergasting. People were coming up to me afterwards, including a couple who said, oh, I was on one side of the issue. But by the time you got to point number six, you'd flip me. I was like, wow. I love that. I love that. Moving the needle. That's the hope. That's the hope is that with all of us with what we're doing, we can move the needle. The one that I think of those 12 things I've heard as why we should not change the bird names, the one that always irritates me the most, and I know people don't say it to be irritating, but when people say, well, it politicizes birding. I'm like, Because what it indicates is they're blinders, that they think that this isn't already politicized and has been politicized for decades, if not centuries. And the example I used at the American Ornithological Society is something like Star Trek. I'm a nerd, I'll find any excuse to bring up Star Trek. where, you know, they were trying, deliberately trying to be inclusive. You know, they had Uhura, a black woman, as a bridge officer. They had Sulu, an Asian guy. They even had a Russian on the crew, you know, and Mr. Chekhov. So they had, they were trying to be inclusive. And then you look at all the planets they visited and, you know, they meet the Vulcans, the Romulans, the Toulusions, you know, the list goes on and on. And every single one of them is white. And this is from a show that was trying to be inclusive and diverse. And they had this blind spot. to them, you know, default was, you know, Caucasian throughout the galaxy, let alone the fact that Caucasian isn't the default on this planet even. And so that is the same kind of mentality that I think is operating when people say to me, well, it politicizes birding. And I'm like, dude, it's been political the whole time and you just didn't see it. It wasn't on your radar because it wasn't something that you were sensitive to. And I say that because all of us have those blind spots. It's not just any one type of person. I watched Star Trek for years before I realized, wait, why is everybody white throughout the galaxy? It took me years to notice that.
00:34:27
Speaker
so That's what irritates me the most. and you know the The response is, look, the the naming happened during the 1800s when a bunch of European settlers were expanding west. They had this idea of manifest destiny. They were pushing the ah the Native Americans out. They were keeping the black people as slaves ah down south. and it just All of that is part of what happened as they were naming things after their heroes. so There's a political element in there, whether you like it or not, and it's already there. So by getting rid of these names, we're taking the politics out. We're not injecting it in. It's already been political the whole time. Absolutely. and you can like people you know I was listening to another podcast the other day around the Endangered Species Act and how it's it's ah there's a ah group of people fighting to delist the grizzly bear, right? Because it's numbers are rebounded and there's a fight happening in the courts and and everything goes back to these decisions to put the Endangered Species Act in the seventies and you realize that that was that was a political move yeah and it had good benefit right and so people sometimes can't link up the fact that the things that they enjoy out there in nature right now some of them are there because of politics and some of them can still be there for communities that are underserved because of politics right because we speak up and we kind of, you know, move things as a, as a community. And I, I, I found all 12 reasons amazing. And we're going to link in the show notes, your talk at San Diego bird Alliance so people can go see that. Cause it was absolutely phenomenal. But do you, do you feel like things are moving in the right direction at this point with that conversation overall? Yeah, for sure. um I think a lot, I realize that what it requires is for all of us to let go of our anger. And I say that when I first started writing you know these responses, I was furious because I had just read what someone had posted online. There wasn't so much that they disagreed. It was the way they said it that was so dismissive and so arrogant. and I was so furious that I actually made myself late by an hour after dawn to birding while I was in Trinidad and Tobago. so I was in a tropical spot to see all these amazing birds and I was so fed up that I spent an extra hour right at dawn writing up the my answers. The responses kind of grew out of that. and
00:36:41
Speaker
You know i have to let go of that anger cuz i realize now looking back at a part of the anger of a lot of people at the bird names decision was that they felt like they had been treated high handedly with arrogance that they are there thoughts had not been considered and i can see where that would make people you know get their backup make them resistant you know rather than looking at things dispassionately. so I think all of us have to sort of let go of our anger around the issue and just recognize that we may be coming from different places, but we may be able to find our way to accepting these new names together. and yeah i Hopefully, we can reach that point. It seems to be heading in that direction. and I know the AOS is committed to continuing this. They're going to do it slowly and they're going to be inclusive in how they determine the new names.
00:37:27
Speaker
And the part I love is everyone's excited about the new names when I'm out in the field. And, you know, even people are like, oh, yeah, they're changing the names. When are they going to call the Cooper sock? Well, I don't know. We could call it this. We could call it this. And they get excited. And that's what we need is people excited and people engaged. So what we're going to call the Wilson warbler. That's what I want to know. Someone suggested the to pay warbler, which I think is awesome. I think it's awesome.
00:37:53
Speaker
Um, and then I, what was another one? Oh, for the black burnian warbler, uh, someone suggested the flamboyant warbler, which I think is also impossible. There's already a flamethrowed warbler in central America. So calling it the warbler might, might, you know, lead to some possible confusion, but calling it the flamboyant warbler, I think is just fabulous.
00:38:16
Speaker
I think that would be fantastic. That would be absolutely amazing. You know, I was just thinking, you know, you mentioned that you see you these conversations are positive and and you see things going in the right direction. What are your hopes for the birding community in the next five to 10 years?
00:38:33
Speaker
um that we really capitalize on the surge of interest after you the the height of COVID, because it did bring it out a whole new crop of birders. And what we need to do is engage them, engage them and others, particularly in communities that have not been well-represented in burning before, the Black community, the Latino community, et cetera, because we need all hands on deck. In my lifetime, I've been burning now for,
00:39:02
Speaker
half a century. um And in that time, in my lifetime, we have lost a third of our birds, and we feel it. you know When we're out there, we see the the fewer numbers during migration, and it's depressing. um But the good news is that we can reverse it. we can bring We can not only stop the decline, we can bring the birds back, but only if we have commitment and as many people as possible doing the work. So that's why I say, you know, let's capitalize on the COVID surge. Let's get more people involved and let's move them from just passively burning to a true conservation point in their evolution, which I think is a natural evolution for all of us once we start burning. You can't help but go from being a birder to being a conservationist.
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah, it is probably a pretty good through line there to do that. And there's a lot of different flavors you can do or different things you can try to make that connection in your own community, right? You don't have to be going to school for a PhD and doing your summers at the Powder Mill Nature Reserve in order to influential on conservation, right? And I think that's ah that's a really big lesson we try to teach with our bird clubs that this is stuff you can make part of your life the same way you make using less plastics part of your life, planting natives part of your life, maybe not driving as much and polluting as much is really right there at our fingertips as long as we're given the opportunity. One of the ones I did was I cut way down on eating beef. I used to eat a lot of beef, um you know, buy it, cook it and all that. Now I don't buy it um to cook at home and I will, you know, occasionally have it out, you know, in a restaurant or something like that. And the people may say, you know, beef, what does that matter to birds? Well, because they're chopping down rainforest.
00:40:42
Speaker
in Central and South America and the Amazon to make cheap raising land for cattle to feed our desire for cheap beef. And when I found that out, I'm like, as someone who loves the birds, I can't be supporting this. I can't be letting my actions fuel this deforestation that's going to get rid of the birds I love so much. So, you know, I just just really reduced how much beef I eat. That goes to the conversation that we always have about when people start to pay attention, they start to care. And then when you start to care, that's when you start to, Hey, I'm going to do Christmas bird count. I'm going to set up an Eastern bluebird box. I'm going to do bald eagle nest monitoring. I'm going to go visit a local bird bander and learn about bird banding. And so it kind of opens up, as we say, those windows to the wonder, to conservation when you start to care and pay attention to the birds.
Homegrown National Park Initiative
00:41:31
Speaker
yeahp Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned pen planting natives, Jason, because um that's a big thing I'm into. You know, I talked about my roof garden and I plant almost entirely natives up there. Let them go to seed. There's a thing called Homegrown National Park. I don't know if you guys have talked about it on your show, but it's free. You know, it's started by Doug Tallamy and it's a way for all of us to do our little bit to instead of waiting for the government to create a park. It's like, yeah, you'll be waiting until you're dead. But we can do it ah we can do it on our own collectively. He did bring that up last season. I'd be honest, I planted way too much milkweed. I i look at it now and it is so it is it is massive and I realized I was only supposed to put a couple in per foot and I just kind of sprinkled them like salt all over my soil bed there in my flower garden. you know I'm going to leave them there until they get used right as best possible you know before the winter. but um
00:42:23
Speaker
Yeah, I went a little hard on the milkweed because I met some cool homies that were telling me like, Hey, yeah you know, I have a little, a little yard, but I have enough space to put native plants along the back. Another, another good one that people is also beneficial to me is bird friendly coffee. Like, ah you know, having coffee that has grown in the shade where they're not cutting down trees. you You know, if you just Google bird friendly coffee, you can find some reputable organizations that can help you with that. Let me ask, cause we are, you know, we are. into a deep conversation here and don't want to keep you all afternoon. But are there any projects or anything you're excited about that are coming up or any particular causes um that you are maybe really focused on right now that you want the folks to know about? I am focused like a laser on November 5th. And I will be working hard to see that the candidate I favor will be elected. And I will let you guess who that
Upcoming Children's Book on NYC Owls
00:43:12
Speaker
is.
00:43:12
Speaker
um okay
00:43:16
Speaker
And then also, i as far as projects, I have a kids book coming out in February, which yeah which focuses on ah New York City's owls celebrity owls, because these owls show up in New York City. So yeah, know that'll that'll be kind of fun. You got some flaco action in there?
00:43:34
Speaker
Flaco is in there. Flaco of course was not an a native bird, but you know what? He turned a lot of people on to the bird, which is amazing. And so it's not just about Flaco, it's also about some of the native owls that have shown up and in Central Park, like Bart Owls, Henry Horned Owls.
00:43:52
Speaker
The snowy hour. Yo, Christian, I saw a video of a snowy hour taken a rat down in one go. It was in on a tennis court in Central. That was the wildest thing I've seen. And people were like, this is not real. This is a I'm like, guys, first of all, it's real. You don't need Harry Potter. Second of all, if you knew, if you knew how these owls hunted sea ducks on the Jersey and New York coastlines, you would realize that they are monsters and them taking down a New York rat was one of the coolest. I don't know why it felt like some sort of poetic justice. I don't know, but it was, it was so cool watching nature say, okay, you're going to give me this park to live in for the winter. I'm going to do my part, you know? So yeah, that that book is going to be awesome. What was unreal was the fact that there was a snowy owl in Central Park to begin with because they don't do forested places. They do open expanses like airfields and beaches and you know when they're on their their ah breeding grounds, the tundra. So the fact that one showed up in central Central Park is just astonishing, but there it was. you know
00:44:55
Speaker
And I love that the new book is is geared at kids. We talk about it. If you can see it, you can be it. So a kids book, kids can connect not only to the owls, which Jason, we've talked about this too. What a better way to get people excited than an owl. Once they see an owl, like it's just, I would say you'll never be the same. You have a stare down with any owl, you'll never be the same. So now you're really, you're paying attention. Now you care. So the fact that you're targeting kids, I love that. Cause the earlier, the better. I always wish. yes I said, I always liked birds even when I was a kid, but I never gave them the attention they deserve. Books like yours will get kids to pay attention and care about them earlier.
00:45:38
Speaker
Well, the thing that always astonishes me is that owls are like ambassadors from another realm somewhere, you know? They can't help but seem otherworldly. And nobody thinks, you know, everybody knows that owls are out there, but people don't usually see them. So when they actually see one, they're like, this otherworldly being exists in the same space as I do. And that's the reaction we want. And and just just so folks know, the um ah book is called here. oh It's called The Urban Owls, right? Yes. It's it's called yeah How Flacco and Friends Made the City Their Home, released on February 18th. Next year, it looks like. You can certainly pre-order that from the publisher and we'll put links in. That is going to be amazing. It looks awesome. And so, you know, being able to talk about that story and that, you know, if you see it, you can be it and have that book coming out as the last question. I'm going to see some new birders next weekend. What advice would you want me to give them to find their joy and purpose through burning new birders? Yeah, new birders.
00:46:38
Speaker
binocular skills. Number one, get them, you know, find it with your naked eye, keep your eye on the bird, bring the binoculars to your eyes. They got to master that to really get drawn in, you know, that that's the first. But other than that, I would say it's just ah don't feel intimidated. Don't feel I see this a number of times and I've gone to to speak to folks and I say, how many of your birders and certain hands go up? I say, how many of you have an interest in birds and you know make a point of going out to see them? and A separate set of hands go up, and I'm like, guess what? You're birders. We all started at some beginner point where we didn't know our our butts from our whatever, where we were still learning the birds. and that's actually the most fun part of it. That's the that when it's really glorious and everything is new. A special tip to to the the new birders. We old-school birders have been around the block for a thousand years. We sit on the couch.
00:47:37
Speaker
Because we get to, through your eyes, feel that first-time joy all over again every once in a while. Nothing gives me a bigger thrill than taking someone who hasn't seen a black burnian warbler before, and I'll listen, listen, listen, find one, get them on it, and then I wait. And then I'm like, oh my god. Yes, yes, yes.
00:47:58
Speaker
and I get that thrill again. so yeah tell the Tell the beginning birders they're in for the ride of their life. This is the best moment to be birding. This is when they're going to get so much joy and don't let anybody intimidate them or turn them away from it because they're going to have so much fun. Christian, this has been so fun. Thank you for stopping by and chatting with Jason and I just to talk about bird joy. And I think you you showed at so many different levels why that bird joy is so important. And even in those moments in our life where where life starts lifing, get back to the birds. Get back to the birds because they will give us, even if it's a brief one, a respite from all the craziness that happens around all of us all the time.
00:48:40
Speaker
I want to see everybody for joining us today on the bird joy podcast. We hope you enjoyed exploring the world of birding with us and Christian Cooper today. Shout out to all my bird nerds in Wisconsin. Make sure you check out the BIPOC burning club website. We are at BIPOC burning club.org.
00:48:59
Speaker
ge Yes. Yes. And shout out to the homies here in Philly. You can find us at in color birding.org. And I want to give a shout out to the and NYC bird Alliance, NYC bird Alliance.org. As I'm sure we will have some homies up in New York, uh, listening to this podcast. So please get involved, go out and find your bird joy.
00:49:18
Speaker
Go grab Christian's book. If you haven't already, Better Living Through Burning, a note from a black man in the natural world. Like we said, we will have links to all this good stuff in our show notes. Today has been jam, jam packed. So please share, subscribe, shout out the podcast to all your fellow birders and help us spread a little bird joy. Thank you so much, guys. It's been a pleasure to be here.