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Ep 57. Thelma Ekiyor, Global CEO Women for Women International: Investing in the Power of Women
380 Plays14 days ago
Thelma Ekiyor is an award-winning global leader in women’s economic empowerment, philanthropy, impact investing, and international development. She is currently the Global CEO of Women for Women International - the first African woman to hold the role.
Since 1993, Women for Women International has invested in the power of women in conflict-affected countries, supporting survivors of war to rebuild their lives, find their voice, and drive change in their communities: thus creating a more equal, peaceful, and prosperous world.
And yet, more than three decades on, women remain excluded from peace-keeping frameworks and post-conflict power structures. In today’s volatile geopolitical context, Thelma argues that excluding women from decision-making doesn’t just limit progress, it actively undermines peace, development, and economic growth.
In this conversation, we explore women’s rights, the role of women as agents of change, and why engaging both governments and the private sector is critical to driving true ecosystem change.
As a leader, Thelma underscores the importance of political intelligence alongside emotional intelligence, and the critical need to bring a business mindset to social sector work.
Recorded March 2026.
Groundbreakers: Network for Women CEOs
https://www.charitygroundbreakers.org.uk/
Recommended
Transcript
Disappointing Progress on Women's Role in Peace Processes
00:00:00
Speaker
25 years ago, a global policy framework was coined with a lot of aspiration, a lot of hope that it would switch the conversation about how women are involved in peacekeeping, involved in peace processes, how gender-based violence is reduced.
00:00:18
Speaker
But 25 years later, the data is really disappointing. the UN released a report to say over 600 million women live 50 kilometers from an open conflict and war.
Rising Gender-Based Violence and Intersectionality Issues
00:00:31
Speaker
Gender-based violence is on the rise and it is supported and bulwarked by systemic violence. And not only that, we now have trafficking as a very dangerous inclusion in conflict zones where girls as young as nine and 10 are being taken out of their families, out of their homes. And so you you see that whilst, you know, 25 years ago, there was such hope Now, not only are the numbers very, very stark, it also exists with intersectionality issues, right? You have all all these other issues that you have to consider when you consider the role of women in in conflict, including what I call the worst enemy, which is poverty.
Introduction to Charity CEO Podcast Season
00:01:26
Speaker
Welcome to an exciting new season of the Charity CEO Podcast, where we bring you the stories and insights of remarkable leaders who are changing the world for the better. We talk to the movers and shakers who are driving positive social change, inspiring you to think big, act boldly, and make a difference.
00:01:43
Speaker
A huge shout out to our incredible global community of listeners spanning over 55 countries. Your thoughtful comments and feedback continue to fuel this growing movement, and we couldn't do it without you.
00:01:54
Speaker
To all of you who pour your hearts and souls into making the world a better place, especially those of you in the charity and nonprofit sectors, thank you for the tireless passion you bring to your work. This podcast is for you.
00:02:06
Speaker
I'm Divya O'Connor, and here's the show.
Thelma Ekior's Leadership and Vision at Women for Women International
00:02:12
Speaker
My guest today is Thelma Ekior, an award-winning global leader in women's economic empowerment, philanthropy, impact investing, and international development. She's currently the global CEO of Women for Women International, the first African woman to hold the role.
00:02:28
Speaker
Since 1993, Women for Women International has invested in the power of women in conflict-affected countries, supporting survivors of war to rebuild their lives, find their voice, and drive change in their communities, thus creating a more equal, peaceful, and prosperous world.
00:02:44
Speaker
And yet, more than three decades on, women remain excluded from peacekeeping frameworks and post-conflict power structures. In today's volatile geopolitical context, Thelma argues that excluding women from decision-making doesn't just limit progress, it actively undermines peace, development and economic growth.
Advocacy for Women's Inclusion in Decision-Making
00:03:04
Speaker
In this conversation, we explore women's rights, the role of women as agents of change, and why engaging both governments and the private sector is critical to driving true ecosystem change.
00:03:16
Speaker
As a leader, Thelma underscores the importance of political intelligence alongside emotional intelligence and the critical need to bring a business mindset to social sector work.
00:03:27
Speaker
Enjoy the conversation.
Sponsorship and Sustainable Investment Promotion
00:03:28
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:04:05
Speaker
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00:04:16
Speaker
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Thelma's Personal Insights and Passions
00:04:25
Speaker
Hi Thelma, a very warm welcome to the Charity CEO podcast. How are you today? I'm good, thank you very much. I like to start the show with a few icebreaker questions and I have four questions for you today, if that's all right?
00:04:39
Speaker
Perfect. Question one, share with us something about yourself that people wouldn't typically know. People wouldn't typically know. I am an incredible foodie.
00:04:51
Speaker
The first thing I look for wherever I travel is food, local food. And do you cook as well? I cook, but my husband is way better than I am, which is really annoying.
00:05:01
Speaker
ah but But I do cook. But that's great. You get to eat wonderful food. Yeah. I mean, I taste everything. Excellent. Question two. What would you say is your professional superpower?
00:05:16
Speaker
I never give up. I just don't give up. I just, I feel like if it can be done, why can't we do it if it's an organization or why can't I do it? So yeah.
00:05:28
Speaker
And also can be very annoying to people around you, but I i just don't think that, you know, particularly when you work for women, that you should you should give up without trying.
Importance of Staying True to Charitable Mandates
00:05:40
Speaker
Question three. What book are you currently reading? h This is a really good one. Book or books? Well, books. Yeah. So first of all, I'm at the final stages of my PhD. So maybe I'm reading a lot of books.
00:05:54
Speaker
But I think one book that I constantly refer to is Paul Collier's Bottom Billion. I think it's a brilliant book and it's timeless because it's relevant today as it was when he wrote it, talking about the fact that the bottom billion in the global society should not be ruled out.
00:06:13
Speaker
And it is a misconception to think that the bottom billion won't exist. lower services, you know, lower quality. And I think it's it's an important book as we think about how inequity prevails in in ah in our world today.
00:06:30
Speaker
m And that brings us nicely to our fourth question, which is, what is one question that you think charity leaders should be asking themselves right now? Are you staying true to your mandate?
00:06:43
Speaker
The world is asking all of us to change, to drop the things that we've always held as not just ah values, but also social contracts about how we should behave in a global society.
00:06:58
Speaker
And so my question to to my colleagues, my peers is, are you staying true to your mandate? And on that note, Thelma, thank you so much for being here. I'm really looking forward to this conversation with you. Let's start off by hearing about Women for Women International, the organization that you lead as the
History and Mission of Women for Women International
00:07:16
Speaker
global CEO. Tell us about its origin, its mission and its work. Thank you.
00:07:21
Speaker
An incredible organization. But I like that you're starting with the origin because sometimes I think when organizations have grown, people forget the very humble beginnings. And ours is a really unique story.
00:07:34
Speaker
It was started by two Americans, but one Iraqi American and one Palestinian American. And in Washington, 32 years ago, very young, one female and one male. so a lot of people don't know that I have a male co-founder.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yes, Atala and Zeynab Salbi, they started Women's All Women International. And it started with just refusing to sit on the sidelines during the Bosnian war.
00:08:04
Speaker
They saw how the war was impacting women. And they started this very strange intervention that involved writing letters to the women in Bosnia, having women write letters to the women in Bosnia, having women support one-on-one the women in Bosnia.
00:08:21
Speaker
And I say that that legacy is in the DNA of women for women. We don't sit on the sidelines. We refuse to sit on the sidelines. And we are constantly looking for how to reach out to women who live and work in the most vulnerable situations, which for us are conflict zones.
00:08:40
Speaker
How interesting that 32 years ago, your co-founders being an Iraqi American and Palestinian American, and those geopolitical divides are still very prevalent in today's world. Exactly. Yes. And Thama, I'd love to hear more about your views on the current state of the sector. Give us your perspectives on the role of women in conflict zones as architects of peace, economic resilience, and also their ability to bring about the social transformation and indeed not sit on the sidelines.
Women's Role in Peace and Community Resilience
00:09:11
Speaker
So I think it's important to say that I started my career working in conflict zones. Working last count, it was over 25 conflict zones that I had actively been in, worked worked in during wars.
00:09:24
Speaker
And I'm really grateful for that um initial experience because a CEO, I'm able to connect with what's happening on the ground. I'm very clear.
00:09:35
Speaker
that the categorization as women as victims of war is to further dehumanize women, to remove their agency. Because what I saw in those conflict zones was that when the fighting was going on, when the guns were going off,
00:09:51
Speaker
And there would be curfews. It would be women who would defy curfews to come on the streets to look for food for their children. It would be women who would defy all sorts of logic to demonstrate and say to the warlords that, no, you can't kill you can't kill us and our children.
00:10:09
Speaker
But very sadly, when it came to the point where the countries were transiting from open conflict to creating power structures, I would see a switch. you know i would see all these women I had seen completely disappear, as if they never existed.
00:10:27
Speaker
And that really shaped my early my early career. That really shaped my own personal politics and my own resolve that you know this is not just unjust. It is also impossible to have any form of sustainable peace where the women who have been the ones who have you know contributed to social harmonization, who have tried to keep communities and families together, are completely rejected.
00:10:55
Speaker
when the power brokers get together. And very recently, I was watching CNN and I almost threw my shoe at the television when I saw that at the peace signing of Rwanda and DRC in the US, there was not one woman.
00:11:10
Speaker
on that panel. And it just brought back there's this deja vu moment of saying, you know, even up 27 years later from when I started in this field, nothing seems to be ah changing when it comes to distribution of power.
Redefining Women's Strategic Power in Conflict Zones
00:11:25
Speaker
That's raw power. But The power that women have, I don't call it soft power. I call it strategic power.
00:11:32
Speaker
Because even though they're not on that on those tables, they are very, very resolute that their children are not going to go hungry. Even I saw women in Sierra Leone and Liberia who had been through rapes.
00:11:45
Speaker
and without counseling, without trauma healing, we're more dedicated to finding solutions for their children than for themselves. And so when you understand and you nuance what happens during conflict, you have no choice but to want to, we don't believe that we help women, we believe that we support them.
00:12:04
Speaker
to amplify this strategic power that they already have. And that is the work that Women for Women does as well. It is really sad to note that women are still not being part of that peace negotiation process because you and I know very well if you involve women In these conversations, actually, the likelihood of success is much higher. But coming back to your background, Thelma, you are Women for Women International's first African CEO. And so from your vantage point and given your experience to date, how does global development need to change, do you think?
00:12:44
Speaker
I think all of us, our hearts are in the right place. you know If I look at the international NGO community, everyone talks about decolonization, everyone talks about localization.
00:12:56
Speaker
Understanding that you have to respect the communities that you're working, understanding that you can't see on the one hand, you want to decolonize your strategies, but then you never hire from those communities or you pay them lower than you'd pay colleagues in other parts of the world. So I think in theory, our hearts are in the right places, but in practice, there's still a long way
Challenges in Decolonization and Localization Practices
00:13:20
Speaker
to go. It's very difficult to implement some of these values and and strategies that are on paper look good because of course, there's still power dynamics, right? And i think it also satisfies some people's level of comfort,
00:13:38
Speaker
to say that there's no capacity in certain parts of the world because it justifies their existence and it justifies why power should reside with them. And I think if you are really committed to international development, you can't think that way.
00:13:53
Speaker
No one has the monopoly on talent. No one has the monopoly on skill. India has shown through the IT revolution and the strategic role that India now plays that you know it everything is not in Silicon Valley. So we do need to understand that whilst we've made a magnificent shift in how we see these issues,
00:14:15
Speaker
the practice is still far behind. Yes, and I think we saw really manifested in 2025 how this element of power dynamics really creates a shift. it created a big shift in the funding landscape with the the shutdown of USAID at the beginning of the year. And data put out by UN Women shows that 90% of women-led organizations were hit by funding cuts in 2025. And as a consequence,
00:14:44
Speaker
47% of these organizations are expected to close this year, possibly within the first half of the year. And I know Thelma, you were at Davos, the World Economic Forum earlier this year. What was your challenge to leaders there on this?
00:14:58
Speaker
Going to Davos, it's almost like another planet because it's the wealthiest people in the world, the biggest companies. You're in the same room with Jamie Dimond. you know, of JP Morgan and he has CEO in his name and I have CEO you in my name, but you know that it's never the same, you know, but we were clear. We were clear that I spoke on two panels and we were very clear that the message was not for just for Women for Women, but we were speaking for the entire women's rights sector because I had the privilege of being there, but many women's organizations could not.
00:15:35
Speaker
And so it was very present in my mind and in my words. that the private sector needed to consider women, consider the fact that these stats that you just provided, consider what that would do to the global landscape and understand that it makes business sense to invest in women.
00:15:55
Speaker
And we put out a policy brief that I was very pleasantly surprised that a lot of companies read and reached out to us to say, you know what, we we haven't been thinking this way. Can you help us think through this? Can you look at ah the way we're working and tell us how to improve?
00:16:11
Speaker
And as a result of that engagement in Davos, I was invited by a company that has 50 branches across the world to speak to their leadership. So sometimes I know, and I want to encourage my colleagues who listen to this, and sometimes I know that we say, do these things really work? Should you really go?
00:16:27
Speaker
i would say be present if you can. If you can afford to be present, be present. No one can articulate what you're seeing as good as you And because you deal with these issues every day, doesn't mean everyone is dealing with them every day. So you have to bring that voice, that expertise.
00:16:47
Speaker
We feel as Women for Women, being a 32-year-old organization, we have credibility. And so we almost have the responsibility to speak for that women's organization that is just one-year-old or two-year-old that no one is listening to. So that was what Davos meant for us. And because of that, we've decided that not only will we we continue to go, but we will host platforms that allow other women's rights organizations to attend with us, alongside us. Because even though, you know yes, I was glad that I was there, but I was still just
00:17:22
Speaker
Among very few women in rooms filled with men, only 20% of the attendance at Davos was women. So I think good progress was made, but you can see the vast work that still needs to be done.
00:17:35
Speaker
I completely agree with you, Thelma. I was at Davos myself ah the previous year. And I think it is really important for women's organizations to be in these rooms and to be part of the conversation. And it's brilliant to hear that you've already had some tangible outcomes as a result of your engagement. That is really encouraging. And I'm pleased to know that you're going back and are platforming other organizations. I look forward to seeing and hearing more about that.
00:18:02
Speaker
And talking about global fora, we are recording this episode just before International Women's Day. And I know that you are about to head off to New York for the UN's 70th session of the Commission on the Status of Women convening. What are your ambitions for CSW this year? What would you like to see happen?
Unmet Goals of the Framework and Limiting Factors
00:18:21
Speaker
Well, it also coincides with 25 years of Women, Peace and Security. Yes. 25 years ago, a global policy framework was coined with a lot of aspiration, a lot of hope that it would switch the conversation, as you and I have just ah spoken about, about how women are involved in peacekeeping, involved in peace processes, how gender-based violence is reduced.
00:18:46
Speaker
But 25 years later, the data is really disappointing. The UN released a report to say over 600 million women live 50 kilometers from an open conflict and war.
00:19:00
Speaker
Gender-based violence is on the rise and it is supported and bulwarked by systemic violence. And not only that, we now have trafficking as a very dangerous inclusion in conflict zones where girls as young as nine and 10 have been taken out of their families, out of their homes. And so you you see that whilst, you know, 25 years ago, there was such hope Now, not only are the numbers very, very stark, it also exists with intersectionality issues, right? You have all all these other issues that you have to consider when you consider the role of women in in conflict, including what I call the worst enemy, which is poverty.
00:19:47
Speaker
Women are still poor, right? across the globe and even the women who have coming to the middle class, which is my own personal disappointment when it comes to how women work with each other. And the name of our organization is directly trying to facilitate that women for women strategy, where as more women gain wealth,
00:20:08
Speaker
there should be a direct correlation with how they support other women. But that's not necessarily the case, right? And so that's the shift that has gone. And personally, a little anecdote for you. 25 years ago, i was asked by the UN and myself and another consultant, we were asked to do the needs assessment of the entire African continent.
00:20:31
Speaker
for Women, Peace and Security when it was first coined. And so for me, there's also a personal connection to this where I did the needs assessment 25 years ago and here I am 25 years later heading one of the largest women's rights organizations in the world and still dealing with the same issues that we were ah mapping 25 years ago so I feel like you know we have a responsibility to platform that. So we're having 25-year reflection event in New York, and it's going to involve high-level actors as well as practitioners.
00:21:07
Speaker
But for the first time, which I didn't do 25 years ago, we're involving the private sector because that connection that I just spoke about between women who have relative wealth and what's happening to women on the ground, we have to make it.
00:21:22
Speaker
Yes, Thalma, tell us more about what your organization is doing in terms of really pushing this agenda and trying to, you know, really shift the dial on it. are there Tell us about the policy campaigns that you are working on at the moment.
00:21:37
Speaker
Thank you. Important question. So because another thing that obviously experience has taught us that over time is not to have a formulaic approach and not to act with a one size fits all strategy.
00:21:52
Speaker
And so, for example, in Africa, we've just signed an MOU. with the African Union and NEPAD to make sure that everything that we're seeing on the ground, there is direct connection to systemic change, that the African Union is well informed about what's going on so that they can shape their policies. And we were very pleased when we heard that we were the first organization they were signing that kind of MOU with because we can't scale our work to all the countries across Africa.
00:22:21
Speaker
But the the the African Union can use the data from our work to inform strategies all across Africa. This is something that I'm personally very passionate about. And Women for Women has not worked in these policy spaces at this level.
00:22:38
Speaker
and So I think that that is when you come to an organization like this with a really strong legacy, a lot of work. The question you ask yourself as CEO, since this is a CEO podcast, is what can you add to that legacy? well How can you move the dial a little bit?
00:22:54
Speaker
And that's what I'm doing. So signing the MOU with the African Union, going to Davos, it was also not the first for me, but the first for Women for Women. And we now have a partnership with 100 Women at Davos, which is a huge private sector platform with women, the top 2% women across many industries.
00:23:13
Speaker
Being in that space, just being on that WhatsApp group alone and just seeing the level of conversation and meeting them as peers, because most of them, they don't have NGO mandates. I think that's already a shift in terms of what we're doing.
00:23:26
Speaker
you know We also just signed an MOU with the Royal African Society here in the UK because the Royal African Society has UK funders, FCDO, all these are their partners, works directly with parliament.
00:23:40
Speaker
And so your question about policy, being a partner with them, the issues that we see on the ground can directly come to the attention of parliament. So that's how we're addressing that. And we will systematically do that, understanding that each region will be different.
00:23:56
Speaker
That is such an important question, Thelma, in terms of being a chief executive. What can you add to the organization's legacy? And when I was the CEO of the Sherry Blair Foundation for Women, I signed an MOU or cooperation agreement with the Nigerian government's Ministry of Women Affairs to support women entrepreneurs in Nigeria. And I believe you know the gender minister, Oshiro, Suleiman Ibrahim. And so I completely agree with you that I think more collaboration and initiatives working with government, particularly on around policy platforms, is the way forward. And because for an ecosystem to be successful, it does need to include the government. And when we talk about delivering impact at scale, in most countries, it is difficult to achieve this without the resources and the backing of government.
00:24:44
Speaker
Absolutely. I know the minister very well. She's a strategic partner, very serious. And so I do understand the ambivalence that some people have to say, oh, what does the government do? And how can you? and But the government cannot be the enemy, right? I think if you've worked enough in most of the countries that we work in, you realize that the government can either be a serious, serious spoiler or an important ally.
00:25:12
Speaker
And so the extent to which you find those allies to scale your work, to deepen the impact of your work, I will encourage CEOs to look at that. A place like Africa where I've worked extensively, the government is still, whether some people find that fortunate or or unfortunate, the government is still the biggest client.
00:25:33
Speaker
And so when you have a functioning government like you do in Rwanda, If you want to work in Rwanda, and we have sister organizations in Rwanda, we own a social enterprise in Rwanda, it will be almost a contradiction to say you want to to do that type of work and not look for ways to collaborate with the I have those conversations with colleagues who say, oh no, but our job is to advocate for the government to improve and you know for systems change. But I feel like There are ways to advocate where it's not adversarial all the time.
00:26:04
Speaker
And there are organizations that choose the adversarial approach. But Women for Women, we are apolitical. We take absolutely no sides in any conflict. We will support...
00:26:15
Speaker
any woman anywhere. And that means we have to look for ways to work with allies that share our values. And when we connect, even if the government in question does not share value, we must make sure that we don't reduce that value, if you see what I mean. Like we must make sure we stay true Even if they're not, you know, because if if I'm working in, i'm where we have an office in Afghanistan.
00:26:40
Speaker
I don't want to provoke the Taliban. They have to approve my work permits for my for my colleagues. So I have a responsibility to keep my colleagues safe by ensuring that I engage the Taliban in a respectful way, even if I may not share anything directly with them. So I think there is also maturity that we must bring into the work that we do because the world is changing very, very quickly.
00:27:04
Speaker
And i often say that if we talk about fraud in government, I think we also have to put a mirror to ourselves and say, but there's fraud in the INGO community as well. right? So we don't have a soapbox to stand on. We're not necessarily better than everyone else.
00:27:20
Speaker
So I think that kind of self-awareness when we engage also helps to build relationships. And I think It does make you credible on the ground because whenever organizations leave because of political alliances, Women for Women stays, you know, because they they can see that we're not trying to come in there and ask people to vote for one party or the other.
00:27:44
Speaker
We just want to protect the rights of women. We do say when the government is infringing on those rights, we're very clear. But, you know, we understand that it's very important to have a level of objectivity and ensure that where there are partnerships to be built, even if it's not formal partnerships, you must try and look for ways to build that.
Community Transformation in Rwanda Through Women's Empowerment
00:28:07
Speaker
Yes. And talking about allies and engaging men in this conversation, tell us about Women for Women International's men's engagement program. One of my favorite programs. I just came back from Rwanda and I met some of the husbands of our beneficiaries. And I just saw these, you know, men standing on the side.
00:28:30
Speaker
And i I said to my colleagues, who are they? And they're like, oh, they're that' the husbands. You know, they came to also greet you. And so while the, you know, the president and she was so happy that her role in the cooperative is president, you know, and they all were very happy to introduce me to their president, you know. And so the president of this cooperative, she said, that's my husband. So I said, okay, you know, good afternoon, sir.
00:28:56
Speaker
How do you find the work? And can you tell us a little bit of of how this has impacted you? And he's like, impacted me? You know, he he repeated what I said and he's like,
00:29:08
Speaker
My wife owns our home with me. You know, she she put money down. That has never happened before. and you know, everyone starts laughing and he says, the only downside is I can't talk as I used to talk in the past, you know. And it was fun, but it was also quite serious to say, respectability comes with these interventions. The men see the value of their wives because in that particular project, we had supported women to own greenhouses.
00:29:38
Speaker
And I went to them on harvest day. And so this was a big deal and having their husbands there to hear the men say, you know, we we own our homes. And one of the women said, you know what, I didn't go to university, but with the money that we're making here, all of my children are going to university.
00:29:56
Speaker
This anecdote, you know, when I come back to London, I'm more committed to the work. You know, I feel like I should go to the field at least once a month to have my engines revved up and come back to do the work because that for me is is what keeps me going, that you know that you're not just impacting the woman, but if that woman really does send her children to university, we've impacted the next generation.
00:30:23
Speaker
It's so lovely to hear that sense of pride in the husband that you mentioned there. And one of the pushbacks that we used to get, particularly with respect to entrepreneurship training programs that were specifically targeted for women and our delivery partners in in Kenya would say that they often got asked the question or the challenge, well, there are now so many programs for women. What about the men? How would you respond to that?
00:30:51
Speaker
So this is it's one of my pet peeves. And I think this is why I say, ah you staying true to your mandate? We've invested in a men's engagement program.
00:31:03
Speaker
Because we've managed to support this year, it could almost reach 700,000 women. We're on 600 and something women that we've supported since Women for Women was founded.
00:31:16
Speaker
it doesn't even put a dent in the billions of women that are abused, that live in open conflict across the world. I'm not even focusing on just Africa or the Middle East where we work.
00:31:32
Speaker
So when I hear that conversation, I think people are saying, well, the little you have done is enough. You know, it's not where you go. Because in the grand scheme of things, we're scratching the surface, right?
00:31:43
Speaker
But what I will say is that those of us who work on women's rights, we have to be intentional and involved with them. And I would say we have to be intentional in in designing boys' programs as well.
00:31:56
Speaker
Because it's for some of the men, they're too old to change, right? But if you start with, when you do, especially when you do girls' programs and you talk about women's bodies and all that, I think you do have to start very, very early.
00:32:09
Speaker
In Africa and the Middle East, these are very conservative societies still today. And so being an organization based in London or wherever, or headquarters in Washington as we are, going into those communities, we have to go with a lot of humility, a lot of cultural sensitivity, that when you're talking about women's rights or building up the girls, you might be putting them in direct opposition with members of their families.
00:32:40
Speaker
And so if you are not looking for how you involve the boys and the husbands and you leave, Well, you you may have just put a target on the woman that you're that you're supporting. So there has to be a balance.
00:32:57
Speaker
I've always believed that, you know, because I was actually, I tell people that I've held every single role in international development.
Advice for New Nonprofit CEOs
00:33:04
Speaker
I've been an intern. I've been a project officer. I've been a program manager. I've been a program director before I ever became a CEO.
00:33:12
Speaker
So I've held all the roles. And I've seen that the work that project officers do, sometimes even more than the CEOs, to build those programs on the ground is extremely important.
00:33:25
Speaker
Yes, the World Economic Forum's latest global gender gap report states that it will take 123 years for there to be parity or equality between men and women. And if we look specifically the the dimension of economic opportunity and participation, actually that increases to 135 years before we reach equality. Yes.
00:33:50
Speaker
So yes, there is still a huge gap and a long way to go. Thelma, I know that prior to joining Women for Women International, you set up the first Nigerian philanthropy office in order to really catalyze finance in Africa and challenge the notion that there is no money in Africa, which, as you've already talked about, there is capital there that can be mobilized. Tell us about that.
00:34:16
Speaker
So i have to give a lot of credit to the vice president of Nigeria to start something that didn't exist and to experiment with that. So the Nigerian Philanthropy Office was set up in the office of the vice president to look for how Nigeria is a really wealthy country, but a lot of contradictions, right? And so the issue was, how do you bring philanthropic actors together, starting locally, to support the government?
00:34:46
Speaker
in one area and use that as a lesson to build it up. And so that that was the the objective. And I had the privilege of seeing the amount of indigenous wealth that exists in that country and the possibilities.
00:35:02
Speaker
But what the country was not ready for was we don't have the structure to support that. So for example, there's no legislation on philanthropy. So if people want to give,
00:35:14
Speaker
It's very altruistic. And when it's altruistic, then it becomes emotive and it doesn't last. But if it's structural, the way it is in the UK or the way is in the West, then there can be sustainable giving and people are incentivized to give, right? Companies are incentivized to be part of this.
00:35:31
Speaker
And that is where the gap is. And of course, when you're talking about building structures, that takes a longer time. But I think what we were able to do was so that this is possible, challenge the government to say, if you want to do this, you really need to invest in the structures.
00:35:50
Speaker
And sometimes i tell people, people say, oh, well, that was such good work. Why did you leave? Why did you stop? eyes But I couldn't do that and do Women for Women. I wish I could. But I was chair.
00:36:01
Speaker
And even though it was supposed to be, you know, I supposed to chair and just oversee this became like a full-time job because, Everyone was inviting me everywhere. People wanted to work with us.
00:36:13
Speaker
And I think that was also something, it was almost like a proof of concept. And I do hope that the government, they were not very happy, I should say, that I couldn't do the two. They're like, just do the two. We're fine. Do the two. was like, yeah, you might be fine, but women for women is not fine.
00:36:29
Speaker
and And so I do hope that we have elections soon. So that might be a little bit of a break. I do hope that the appointed of the chair, ah because it's extremely important work. But what it also did was to show other African countries that this is possible.
00:36:45
Speaker
And so I had a lot of conversations with people saying, do you still have your notes? can you Can you tell us how to do this? And and so that conversation is going on informally. I think it's, in retrospect, is the kind of role that I should take when I'm retired.
00:37:01
Speaker
And Tava, what is the money being deployed for? that's been catalyzed through the philanthropy office in Nigeria. Another thing I should have said, very none of the money came to the government.
00:37:12
Speaker
The money was for the different philanthropic organizations to it use their own structures to support the government. So that was another shift. And that was easier for organizations to do rather than, because philanthropic organizations generally don't give to government.
00:37:27
Speaker
And so that was an important thing that we also put in place. So the money was directly for job creation. And people would stop me at airports and different places say, why are you only doing job creation? You should be doing health.
00:37:41
Speaker
You should be doing this and that. Just to tell you the number of issues that need capital. But my takeaway from that, and and so it was such an honor to be part of shaping something that didn't exist before, is that the appetite is there.
00:37:59
Speaker
The resources are there. The structure needs to be developed. Thamma, I'd love to hear more about your your personal leadership journey. you said at the start of this podcast that you started your career working in conflict zones. i mean, tell us what drew you to this work and what have you learned over the course of your career?
00:38:18
Speaker
So I always start with my father. i think many people will have a personal family story that my dad was a lawyer, educated in the UK, which is also the draw to the UK, and very, very rights oriented. So I find that my siblings and I just have this core about wanting to go against injustice at in all forms. And so I studied law at the University of Buckingham and was drawn to international law.
00:38:48
Speaker
And while I was studying that, I was very clear that I hated litigation. I knew in my bones that I hated litigation. I knew I couldn't stand in front of a judge and do all that. So it was really a problem because as much as I love the law, I didn't like parts of the practice.
00:39:07
Speaker
And so once I did international law, I said, well, this looks like me. This is, you know, this looks like what I could do. And and then got a scholarship to study it international dispute resolution in Canada.
00:39:21
Speaker
And while I was doing that, it was at the time that Liberia, Sierra Leone, Rwanda, so many conflicts in Africa. And then i I was lucky to get um a job on a USAID project to go back to Africa.
00:39:37
Speaker
And that was how I started working conflict zones. And from there, worked for the West Africa Network for Peacebuilding. ended up building the largest women's network in in West Africa at the time, over 3000 women supporting them. And I caught my bug working for women.
00:39:57
Speaker
Then in that role was project manager and then became program director. And then I went to work at the Center for Conflict Resolution in South Africa, but then rose to leadership there.
00:40:11
Speaker
As I was doing that work, it was very clear to me that women were learning about their rights. They could speak the rights language, but they were very poor. And I just felt like there's something wrong with our model.
00:40:25
Speaker
Why are we not intentionally investing? At that time, now it's a lot better. Why are we not intentionally investing in what we called economic empowerment then?
00:40:37
Speaker
And I knew that my law degree didn't equip me to design financial solutions to those problems. So I went back to school.
00:40:48
Speaker
I went to Imperial College and studied and did an MBA in innovation and entrepreneurship, particularly in developing contexts. And that was those were the tools that I needed.
00:41:01
Speaker
And then I started working on some of the things you've heard me talk about today, How do we use social problems to solve development issues? How do we use economic solutions to solve social problems?
00:41:13
Speaker
And as I was doing that, was then headhunted to head, the George Soros Foundation was setting up at the time, the West Africa Civil Society Institute. And so I was headhunted to be the first CEO of that and built Waxi. Waxi is now a powerhouse in West Africa.
00:41:31
Speaker
Built Waxi as the first CEO. And then I was headhunted to be the first CEO of, at the time, a foundation in Africa with $100 million. dollars Africans were not doing that.
00:41:42
Speaker
And that was how I became a donor. And so that just kept going. And when I look back, no job was ah more intentional now than it was really still based on just wanting to solve these problems I was seeing and just being very, you know, very, I think if you come from a place like Africa or you're from India or from um the Middle East and you you happen to have gone gotten a level of comfort or a level of ah ah of economic stability.
00:42:15
Speaker
i don't understand why how people cannot have a responsibility, a sense of responsibility to want to go back and do something. So for me, that it it wasn't optional. There was just this internal thing that no, I needed to be part of solving problems in Africa.
00:42:31
Speaker
And as the jobs got bigger and and and more influential, I still kept that to the point where when I was headhunted for this role, one of the things that I was very mindful of, and I didn't even know I was the first African, as you said, somebody on LinkedIn told me, you know, that ah you know but Because that was not why I took the job. It was just, this was an opportunity for me to ah kind of like practice all the things that I had accumulated from all of these roles. And so sitting in my fourth CEO role, i I still feel like I'm that young girl who started out as an intern in those conflict zones.
00:43:15
Speaker
I completely agree with you, Thama. I grew up in India and witnessed and experienced discrimination against women and girls. And that has really fueled my drive to work in this sector.
00:43:29
Speaker
What is something that has surprised you working in the sector? Politics. Necessary evil. Yes. You know, it's so funny because people think like, oh, because we're doing good.
00:43:43
Speaker
it is automatic that everything will just be Zen, you know, and we will all get along. And um and I think when I speak to other CEOs and we still navigate board politics, we still navigate, you know, so this is why I say, you know, sometimes when we talk about the private sector or government, we need to like really look at ourselves as,
00:44:04
Speaker
as INGOs and say, do we really do all the things we say we do? And so for me, that is the constant surprise. And I feel like if I could just live in the field, I'd be fine. But you also have to lead the organization and not just women for women, any organization, because I think whether you call them charities or NGOs, or we face similar challenges. We face similar challenges with structure.
00:44:28
Speaker
We face similar challenges with board CEO relationships. We face similar challenges. We're making sure that we have teams that are, we lead with a very core value of equity, diversity, representation.
00:44:41
Speaker
Like I said, very good on paper, but to practicalize these things are very difficult. so I think the greatest surprise, not surprise, I'm used to it now, is how much, of the work is very administrative.
00:44:55
Speaker
And if you're a CEO in this climate, you almost, two things I say when I speak to CEOs, especially younger CEOs, I tell them, have a very strong business sense. You're not running a charity, you're running a business.
00:45:06
Speaker
You're running a business that must produce results. The only difference is some of your results will be social. But if you don't have that business mindset, how to build systems that make the organization financially sustainable, how to ensure that you're identifying talent and investing in them.
00:45:25
Speaker
There's a lot of focus on emotional intelligence, but I tell younger CEOs also have political intelligence. You need to know how to navigate the power dynamics that exist in every organization. And it's not like an excuse to say you didn't know, right? You know, you know you must you must train yourself. You must find yourself with peers and ask questions, how they deal with their boards, how they deal with with undermining, which is real.
00:45:51
Speaker
These are conversations, if we want to be honest with each other and in the CEO of space, we have to we have to help each other and we have to talk about them. So I find it priceless to have coffee with other CEOs. And maybe that's what you should do with your podcast, like host coffee sessions as well. Absolutely.
00:46:06
Speaker
ah Sounds great. this This is such an important question because I think if we're not real and we don't support each other, you'll be hearing stories of some awful thing that happened to some CEO.
00:46:22
Speaker
and and ah And unfortunately, unlike in the private sector, when a CEO has a challenge in the international NGO sector, We're guilty by association. It's like it just everyone starts to look at the entire sector, whereas a company can experience fraud and go down and it's just a company.
00:46:41
Speaker
So we also have to be very aware. And if you're a female CEO, I think you have two counts against you. So... Yeah, this is the reality and we don't cry about it, but we shouldn't be naive about it as well.
00:46:56
Speaker
Yes. And I did actually host ah the charity CEO Mastermind group. We're bringing together CEOs a couple of years ago. so I might look to resurrect that perhaps. And also I should give a shout out to Groundbreakers. I sit on the steering committee of Groundbreakers and they are a network specifically for women CEOs in the nonprofit sector. So groundbreakerscharity.org.uk, I believe is the website. i encourage people to look it up and we do run lots of different events and and hosting and convening events.
00:47:31
Speaker
and But Thelma, with that real social and business mindset, particularly around political intelligence that you articulated so beautifully there, what is your vision for Women for Women International?
Future Vision for Women for Women International
00:47:42
Speaker
Give it give us a sense of what you see in the future.
00:47:45
Speaker
I have incredible colleagues, I have an exceptional board, a very diverse international board. And we challenge each other in the sense that we don't want this localization mandate and focus that we have to be lip service.
00:48:00
Speaker
And so we're, you know, have this this phrase in the international development world that talks about country power, We are very committed to seeing how do we support our country offices? How do we invest in them? And one of the first things I did was to start a process of a global revenue strategy that that really straddles a global approach.
00:48:22
Speaker
So some of that we will be sharing at the right time. But that that my vision is to make the organization very representative of the women that we support. And in today's geopolitical context, mean, the world is currently in a very volatile state and we have seen the global rollback of women's rights.
00:48:42
Speaker
What gives you hope at the moment? So earlier on, you talked about the fact that 2025 was a horrible year for everyone. True. But we were not as impacted as everyone else because Women for Women, as the name suggests, as our founders intended, is supported by hundreds of thousands of ordinary women.
00:49:02
Speaker
I've met women who've been supporting us for 23 years and some give as little as $15, but they give, they don't miss it. And so that gives me hope.
00:49:14
Speaker
And they reach out. They reach out and they say, what can we do? How can we support you? And so, you know, i I received the best messages and I tell the team, please keep sending me those messages with someone saying, I am so committed to your work. Here is my $10 this month.
00:49:33
Speaker
And that $10 is, for me, is as important as a million dollars, right? Because the person who's giving $10 obviously may not have that much, but is committed to doing it. And it just, it makes me connected to them. I am very, very accountable to them.
00:49:51
Speaker
We send them regular updates of what we're doing, what we're thinking even about. so that they know and they're carried along. and And I mean, you said the world is volatile. I say it's mad right now. So those of us who are sane need to bring sanity to to the things that we do.
00:50:10
Speaker
Yes, I love that. Those of us who are sane need to bring sanity. I think it's a very small group, I fear, Thelma. Absolutely. But we're there. We're still there.
00:50:21
Speaker
And coming on now to our closing question, what is one thing you would like people to take away from this conversation? Give us a a final thought or reflection. First of all, I enjoyed it.
00:50:33
Speaker
And excellent. You ask questions, the right questions and in the right way, because I think, I don't know, i haven't reflected this much in on the journey. And um I feel old when I say 27 years. But I think also I'm very committed to this next generation of of people that come into the INGO space.
00:50:54
Speaker
Wherever I speak, I tell them that it is a good career move. People say, but is that money there? Can I have a lucrative career? Yes, please consider that. That's important to consider.
00:51:05
Speaker
But then in terms of social fulfillment, generational impact, you will find it in this space if you work for the right organization. So yeah, I want people to know that and I want people to so reach out to Women for Women. But if you don't reach out to Women for Women, please reach out to organizations that are doing good work.
00:51:25
Speaker
You can do something. You can do something. What is not acceptable is to do nothing. What is not acceptable is to sit on the sidelines. And so find that thing you can do. Volunteer.
00:51:37
Speaker
Put stamps on envelopes. Write to women in conflict zones. Speak out. Support. Send a nice email to organizations that are working. You'd be surprised the difference it makes.
00:51:49
Speaker
But I tell what is absolutely in this world today doing nothing is is what is unacceptable. Thelma Ekio, thank you so much for this incredibly insightful conversation. It has been a pleasure to have you on the Charity CEO podcast.
00:52:05
Speaker
Thank you. It's my pleasure to meet you and to have this conversation. And for those of you who might be interested in Groundbreakers, those of you women CEOs, I will include a link to Groundbreakers in the show notes.
00:52:18
Speaker
Thank you.
00:52:21
Speaker
Well, that's a wrap on another inspiring episode of the Charity CEO Podcast. I hope today's conversation left you feeling empowered and uplifted. I know it did for me. If you loved what you heard, please share the joy by leaving us a quick review on your favorite podcast platform.
00:52:36
Speaker
Reviews really help us reach more listeners and grow this amazing community of change makers. Be sure to also hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And for even more inspiration and resources, head on over to thecharityceo.com.
00:52:51
Speaker
There, you can dive into our past episodes from the last five seasons and find valuable content to help fuel your impact. Thank you for listening. And remember, together, we're building a better world.
00:53:03
Speaker
See you next time.