Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The Hidden harm of School Behaviour Policies
464 Plays10 days ago
In this episode we’re chatting with Beth from Lily Oaks psychological and Counselling practice about why school behaviour policies often do more harm than good.
You can find out more about supporting PDA in school through our website or the PDA Training Hub.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to PDA Life Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to PDA Life, the podcast brought to you by the PDA Society, where we'll be exploring the highs and lows of pathological demand avoidance. I'm Rachel. And I'm Sarah, and we're your hosts.
00:00:14
Speaker
As the UK's only PDA charity, we're bringing together PDAers, carers, clinicians and researchers to answer the questions which matter to you most. Hello, my name is Rachel and in today's episode we're going to be discussing the impact of school behaviour policies on children and in particular PDA children.
Meet Beth: Expert on Neurodiversity
00:00:33
Speaker
Joining me today is Beth who owns Lily Oaks psychological and counselling practice. She's a counsellor specialising in autism and ADHD, a SEND advisor, and has spent over 20 years working with children and neurodiversity. What makes Beth's perspective so powerful is that she's seen this from every angle, through research, running education settings, supporting young people in her practice, and as a parent herself. So welcome to our podcast, Beth.
00:01:01
Speaker
Hi, thank you so much for having me. No problem at all.
Understanding PDA Behaviors as Anxiety Responses
00:01:04
Speaker
So i think a great place to start and on this topic is to so look really at the misunderstanding, sort of that how PDAs are very often misunderstood on the surface. So that, you know, that resistance may be against behaviour policies such as uniforms, such as doing homework,
00:01:24
Speaker
that can be seen as a choice and actually it's it's not for PDAs is it it's it's driven by anxiety so can you just sort of um sort of unpick that little bit yeah absolutely well I truly believe that all behavior is a communication as we're here to talk about PDA today but I through my research I found that it is across the board any child's communication and behavior zo is communication and I think when we then see that through the behaviour policy it is seen unfortunately sometimes as a choice so choose it children are choosing not to wear that jumper or they're choosing to come in and be unregulated and that can very quickly fly and escalate through the behaviour policy almost before the child and definitely the parent home and the teachers sometimes I think realise how quickly that has flown through behaviour policy because it escalates, it escalates so quickly from a child who's coming, like i said, with a jump that doesn't quite feel right, they're then seen as being not compliant, either put the jump on on or don't, sort wriggling in it, and all of a sudden we are through that behaviour policy and kind of much bigger problem in our hands.
Daily Challenges for PDA Children
00:02:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And, um you know, um stay for those PDA children. It's not a choice at all. There is no choice about complying or not complying. It's they're driven by, their behaviours are driven by that anxiety, isn't it? So, you know, if we think about it from the child's perspective then, and what does it actually feel like for a PDA yeah when they're faced in in a school environment, when they've got all of these demands coming at them? You know, they've got school rules to comply with, demands from le learning, all those social and sensory demands as well. It's a lot for them, isn't it?
00:03:00
Speaker
It is such a lot. And what I've found through working with children with PDA is that the demands, don't start from the the the minute they wake up, pushing their teeth, getting dressed, making sure they've got the right books, the right homework, the fabulous parents and everyone and all the carers at home, that so carefully manage that. But then we have a child that turns up at school who's already had so many demands and pressures on them that when they walk into school, quite often I talk about it almost like, well, walking around ice, walked into school and they're already very carefully coming to school. So the minute there's an extra demand at school, and if that's not delivered in a way that's suitable for the individual child, that can escalate their nervous system and put this child who is already feeling the pressure um into a state where actually they can't concentrate and they're struggling even more.
00:03:51
Speaker
Yeah, so they're they're very not sort of, you know, walking into that environment in the morning then, sort of the calm and able and relaxed and ready to open their minds for learning, are they? For PDAs, there's ah there's an awful lot that's gone on already for them in the morning, all those morning routines. And I guess then all of those rules and expectations from school, it's just, you can see how overwhelming it can be, can't you?
00:04:14
Speaker
It really is. And quite often i find that even before the school has opened, and when children walk into the playground and they are looking at friends thinking, oh, how do I manage a social situation? And then they might, add as I said a minute ago, have their uniform is not quite feeling right. And then they have a teacher to to speak to or someone that might not quite like be right in the playground or hasn't quite been the same as the day before.
00:04:35
Speaker
And often think these poor children haven't even, it's not even nine o'clock and they haven't walked through the door properly and they're already very heightened and um and they're struggling, struggling with all the demands.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah,
Ineffectiveness of Reward Systems for Neurodivergent Children
00:04:48
Speaker
definitely. So if we think about behaviour policies then, and with that background, now you know we know that that that those children are not calm and able, they're going to be heightened, their anxiety is high already. And then we think about school behaviour policies. And, we you know, they're usually, you obviously every school is in is different, but they're usually based around rewards and consequences, aren't they? Yes. So if we just...
00:05:13
Speaker
Take a minute to sort of unpack that. Why do sort of rewards and consequence type approach generally doesn't work for many neurodivergent children, not just PDAs, but, you know, sort of it's it's really difficult for them, isn't it?
00:05:28
Speaker
It really is, so I could almost see why they thought of a reward system would work, but it really, really doesn't. And it doesn't because, and for example, an attendance policy reward. If you turn up five days a week, you get that reward at the end of the week.
00:05:45
Speaker
The minute a child, maybe if if you take a step back, they have a medical appointment, they've lost it. Or if they have a child who is struggling to attend school and they arrive late, they've lost it. Or a child who may be so anxious they need to leave school early. And again, it's gone. And there are so many steps in the way of a child getting this reward.
00:06:04
Speaker
And they can lose it so quickly. And then that feeds into them. I'm not good. I'm not good enough. I'm i'm a bad they get a child and they'll get to the end of the week and they're never the child that's picked they're never the child who's got this reward it just feeds into their belief of themselves of how potentially they're not obviously but how bad they can feel because they haven't got this reward and that could be an attendance ward it can be all sorts of rewards are put in place to try and get children to conform and actually what it does it it it feeds into this really
00:06:41
Speaker
this sense of not being enough that can then sit with them for a long time and I work with adults who are sitting with these feelings that were put in place as children and this could be 20 30 years down the line yeah yeah it's tough isn't it I mean I know with my my PDA yeah he's 15 he's in a special school and he that they have champion of the week And I pull my hair out because it's sold to the kids, work hard all week, put effort in and you might be the champion. Or my son will remember every time a teacher has said, well done, like that colouring I like the way you caught that ball. He will remember every time he held the door open for a teacher, he will lock it all.
00:07:26
Speaker
And then in his eyes, well, why aren't I champion of the week? But he hasn't worked out that he gets it once in 11 weeks because they do it on a rota. And it's like, well, the reward doesn't match what you're selling it as, does it? It it doesn't. And i think actually, and and and that's exactly it, is that, again, I think lots of children, but I find especially not diverse children, they log it. Okay, so so i have so for me to get a champion week, I need to X, Y, z and then they do it.
00:07:50
Speaker
And then when it doesn't come around or or they're not chosen, and some children have to say, as you said, it sounds like that they your child's school goes to the road and everyone everyone gets to go. That's not always common practice. So actually, we can have children who are absolutely doing everything they can and never get it.
00:08:05
Speaker
And also, when it's that champion of the week and they're working as hard as they can, as hard as they can, what's the measure for that? So, yes, you may have a child that turns up at school and does all their homework on time and it's beautiful and their hands are in perfectly every time.
00:08:20
Speaker
And that's great, brilliant for that child. That's their champion. They're doing really well. But there's another child that if they turn up to school, that is brilliant. They walk through the door. They are there, potentially they're in the uniform, either the white uniform or the uniform that's been agreed.
00:08:33
Speaker
That is absolutely incredible. And that needs to be achieved too. So I just think these rewards just don't work because there's no measures for it. And you can you can never make sure that every child feels supportive in that No, no, you you're so right there. i mean, I've had numerous conversations with my son at school about it, as you can imagine. And we we we came up with a system whereby he had a somewhat smaller little certificate that he could have every day if he went to the teacher to say, I've done this today.
00:09:03
Speaker
And then he got um and that's sort of working at the moment, which is great. But it is a real, real tricky one, isn't
Why Punitive Measures Fail
00:09:09
Speaker
it? It is, and I think actually that that's such a brilliant point to make is that it is because so children are so different. What's right for your child will will be different. That's right for my child and for lots of educators and and I'm sure also parents on this that listening. It has to be for the individual child. So anything that's very sweeping the entire class or the entire school tend not to work.
00:09:28
Speaker
Definitely. And then I suppose if we think about the other side of it then, the the consequences side, you know, lots of school policies, they're designed to modify behaviours, aren't they, by imposing those sanctions such as, you know, detentions, timeouts, missed break times, whatever it may be. And You know, what then tends to happen when schools respond to a child who is displaying those demand avoidant behaviours or distress behaviours, and then you add stricter consequences on tap? on That can't be good, can it?
00:10:02
Speaker
It's really not. And I'm really passionate about this because because consequences like that do not work. then there's I've never, ever seen a situation where these work. And as mentioned, I did research about this but back when was doing my master's. And I looked at whether the behavior policies were unseizable for autistic children. And actually what I found was that it wasn't good for any children. Payments for neurodiverse children and neurotypical children came back and it didn't work for any children. And it's because a child who is not regulated and a child is struggling and a child who's trying to tell you something is never, ever, ever going be regulated by being sent out the room, by being told that they've got a consequence, being sent to isolation, it's the worst thing to segregate a child and send them on their own and sit them on their own when actually what they're reaching out is for connection. And i always think with these behaviour policies which are structured like this, all the time it takes to put these punishments in place, we can flip that so easily to connecting with the child and seeing what's going on. And the behaviour, as I said at the beginning, is communication. It's a symptom of what's going on for them.
00:11:11
Speaker
A punishment, a sanction, like I said, it rolls so quickly. It's never, ever going to, one, get to the bottom of what's going on, but also but in support for that behaviour and what's going on for the child. Yeah, it's really tough, isn't it, I think? And, you know, you've got what PDA children in particular need, well, most children will need, that, as you said, you mentioned that connection. But when you put in these sanctions in place, you're breaking those connections. You're fostering mistrust.
00:11:41
Speaker
and it's the opposite you should be doing the opposite you should be making bonds of trust for those kids not breaking them yeah exactly and and and and it's the nervous system the nervous system senses the danger and once the nervous system is heightened the punishments just keep saying to your nervous system this is the danger this is not okay but the connection can help solve that connection can help bring us down and regulate and calm our bodies to then like said find out what is actually going on for the child and you think about us as adults we know as adults if we go somewhere a bit heightened and and don't quite feel right and someone says oh just calm down you don't and also as adults if someone says actually you're doing this wrong you think oh I'm really not um I'm really trying not to again that sits with us and that place or that person if you go again might not quite feel right you might not want to go back and that's exactly the same for a child you're teaching their nervous systems what is safe and what is not
00:12:37
Speaker
yeah yeah and that's tough isn't it i i was speaking to a a parent the other day whose pda child had been given they didn't call it detention they called it a reflection 15 minute reflection because the child hadn't done my homework and then of course the pda didn't turn up for the reflection so what was the what was the next action a 30 minute reflection and then it didn't turn up for that then it was an hour reflection And then it was, can't remember what the next, foot but it got to the point where the child just didn't want to go to school anymore. And then they were struggling with EBSA then. They really, you know, just couldn't cope with going in. And it just snowballed from one teacher saying, you right you know, well, do you haven't done homework, therefore this. And I'm not blaming the teacher's fault because that's obviously school, you know, it's school policy, but this is how it just snowballs so easily, doesn't it?
00:13:25
Speaker
And listen, I've got hundreds of stories, hundreds of children who have these experiences And they snowball so, so quickly. And say it's not the teacher's fault. I actually understand there's a policy in place.
00:13:39
Speaker
And quite often the policy can spiral so quickly. So as you, I had it had a um a child I was supporting. that A situation happened, a tiny, tiny situation, but very quickly snowballed. And as it snowballed, no one would then override another professional.
00:13:57
Speaker
So we're going in and saying, hang on, can we just talk about this? And can we... pull it back and actually a this reflection and there's lots of lots of lovely names which flutter around this but the idea of the child is being punished and sent on their own yeah and even requested that maybe okay could the teacher sit with the child and explain what happened but it was refused and because it goes up so quickly and knowing what's overriding each other we end up with children being in isolation and suspended for no real but I say real reason and no connection. No one knows what happened at the beginning. The child, as you said, is completely dysregulated. The school's not safe space and then the school refuser, but actually could pause it all back to, gosh, what's going on today? How can I help?
00:14:39
Speaker
All of this. could be safe for the child and also the teachers that work that must go into sanctions must be huge for the teachers. I really believe that we could really have happier teachers and more time for them as well if we could kind of pull this behaviour system back and really see what's going on for the child first.
00:14:58
Speaker
Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, my background is in secondary teaching and the amount of time that it would take with, you know, you're following up on children that haven't signed up to the detention or whatever it might be. And it's just that you're just following procedure, procedure. But it's it's the procedure. It's not the teachers, isn't it? It's that it's that procedure. It is the procedure. Yeah. Yeah. So.
00:15:18
Speaker
What are the long-term impacts then on a child's mental health when they're repeatedly responded to in this way by schools? Does it have a
Long-term Impact of Negative School Interactions
00:15:27
Speaker
knock on their self-esteem? It must do.
00:15:29
Speaker
Oh yeah, it hugely does. Like mentioned before, is that I can see clients as adults that still talk about things that happened um when they were children. And it's almost a self-esteem prophecy. is that If you're constantly told you're not doing the right thing, you start to believe that. And Carl Young talked about how end with shadow self and it's all these things that you believe are not good about yourself and you're pushing down you're pushing down and it feeds into something you want to hide which can come out um as adulthood and also then for children day to day if they are turning up at school and they already feel that they're in trouble they're not good enough they never do the right thing that then presents through their behavior they're communicating with you that
00:16:10
Speaker
They're not happy. They don't know what's going on. And it just sits with the children. What they believe about themselves can be so deep-rooted. The things that said or policy and things, that as we've as we've said already, spirals out of place. And i think sometimes an education system can then forget this little thing that happens because to them it's little.
00:16:30
Speaker
It doesn't matter. It was just one detention that got so many positive behaviour points, for example, but it's just wrong. But for the child, they're thinking, oh, I don't know what I did wrong or actually...
00:16:41
Speaker
I do know that actually what I did was an ideal for that setting, but no one's kind of helped me work out how to communicate differently or what to do next time. So the child just sits with these feelings.
00:16:53
Speaker
And like I said a minute ago, their nervous system's heightened and what they feel about themselves are so negative. And I think it's of the biggest things that I see both in my same consultancy work, also my counselling room is children, teenagers, adults talking about I'm not this person, I'm not a bad person, I'm really trying to do the right thing and I'm always in trouble and it's really interesting from this stage where I sit now is seeing how it goes through children and teenagers into her adulthood of things which could evas have easily been avoided. and that's the frustrating thing. It's really frustrating because it is damaging mental health and it is affecting people's and anxiety levels. And it's just a real shame where i truly believe that it could be different and could be changed.
00:17:40
Speaker
So we know that it has long-term in impacts then. So for the parents who are going through it in the moment now with with their children, And they're beginning to see that and school avoidance, school refusal, that reluctance to go to school. Maybe the, you know, the child's alarm i'm not feeling well today and they're just putting things in place to avoid school.
00:18:01
Speaker
So what might families notice when their child is starting to avoid or to get anxious about school and how can... the family support their child through them so first like to say it's really find it really hard as i said i'm a parent i find it really hard with this topic from a parent's point of view because we will all sign when our child goes to school that they'll follow the policy so i think it's always a tricky one to kind of manage but i'd also say it's always to try and have an open conversation with the school the senco the class teacher whoever is the most appropriate person um for your child have that open communication hopefully you can send an email in saying oh actually i can see that that my child isn't has come home school it's quite right today, can we touch base?
00:18:42
Speaker
Keep an eye on things like behavior logs, especially through secondary school, which hopefully most people have an app so they can kind of see them. If you see things spiking and behavior logs coming, keep an eye on that and touch base school.
00:18:53
Speaker
Speak your child if if possible, if they can communicate what's going on. I say if possible, because I often find again that children even with their parents that they're trusted people, their carers that are trusted people, start to push it down.
00:19:05
Speaker
They're told so often it's not the right thing. It then becomes really hard to share. um And then the children who have PGA, Hopefully you're on the same register and actually that's all recognised through school.
00:19:18
Speaker
The same code of practice says you can have, it says six meetings is good practice. Three is within the law to have these conversations with school, use those meetings, go we and speak to school, see what's on their pupil passport. Is there reasonable adjustments?
00:19:32
Speaker
Is it clear about what your child needs in these circumstances? um And keep that conversation going. And I've said, I know it's really hard as a parent. There's definitely times I'm going, I'm emailing in again, same situation. It is really hard, always, as we will know, be polite and keep going forward and with this, but it it is keeping on top of it, keeping on top of what's going on and keeping that communication open. And hopefully then some individual practices can put in place for your child i to support them.
00:20:02
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. it's it's it It is being that parent that keeps emailing, keeps phoning, because you have to. And and and I think sometimes us as parents, if we haven't had a good or positive experience at school, that might make us more more reluctant, therefore, to contact the school on behalf of our parents and and to question what the school's doing, because school teachers are seen as that authority and figure and they're... you know, that what they say goes type thing. And it and fact for some parents, it must be quite difficult to to to have that communication with them.
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah, it absolutely is. And I find, I say, I'm a parent myself. I absolutely email in and quite often go, I'm so sorry to email again. And had to pull that back and think, actually, i'm um I'm checking out my the situation for my child. I'm making sure all's in place. And ah I'm also aware that teachers are so busy.
00:20:54
Speaker
They work so, so hard. And it must be really hard for them when they are managing parents coming in and the child in front of them. And then a behavior policy which saying they have to go through kind of this behavior policy. And I think understanding as a parent, always try and understand the teacher's perspective and go, understand what you've done, follow this policy, but actually hasn't worked for my child. And how can we stop this spiraling? how can we stop this happening again or go into a situation where actually my children don't want to attend school?
00:21:21
Speaker
And I
Familial Impact of School Behavior Policies
00:21:22
Speaker
suppose as well, the impact of these, you know, these strict behaviour policies, whether that be actual behaviour, attendance, uniform, homework, all of those policies, the impact of that goes beyond the child as well, doesn't it? It has a knock-on impact on families, on relationships. Have you seen much evidence of that? Yeah, absolutely. So I do lots of work with families and families that come in and where it's exactly this. A child is struggling at school and again, the behaviour policy is always there. It's always part of the initial conversation and it does ripple. It ripples through relationships and siblings and it can take so much time out of your day-to-day and so much en energy as parents to keep going back, keep fighting for your child. And then as you said, if you've got child who then doesn't want to go to school because of the behaviour,
00:22:12
Speaker
policy to try and get that communication across as a school to try and get you both on the same page and say look I'm not trying to fight against your school actually child wants to come to school but there's this issue with the behaviour policy if just remove that or obviously not completely remove I understand the behaviour has been placed but just readjust it what's best for my child how can we work together to put a support system in place that meets the school requirements but also actually meets my child needs then actually all this could be so much smoother.
00:22:42
Speaker
And I think for an educator point of view, it's my, one of my biggest things I say is work with the parents, work with the child, because it could so easily be tweaked. And for example, a child I work with,
00:22:55
Speaker
always forgets their pens and pencils, you know, all the pencil case. And the form tutor is excellent. He just has a draw. And it goes around his entire class, for the entire class he's spoken to, watching, watching, watching English. And it just removes all of those, you're now trouble for having a pen, you're now trouble for not having some equipment. yes And because the children involved in that that decision, they will pop them back at the end of the day or they'll give them back the next day. And if it's continued, then we get a little email, the parents get a little email saying,
00:23:26
Speaker
your child hasn't got pen or that kind of circumstance and that entire situation of not being in trouble for not having your equipment is so easily removed so there are things that can be put in place which can support the child support the parent and then have the children who want to go to school back in school yeah yeah that's so important that the parents are supported through that because the knock-on impact you know if your child if your child from when it starts if you if you homework it snowballs it snowballs could lead into that child then not going to school what if the parents are working then that that there's that has a knock-on implant then you know the family things like that never mind parents mental health as well as the child so it really snowballs doesn't it it really does snowball and as you said after i work in the mental health side of the absolutely parents so many parents i've worked with that have had to give their work are working reduced hours trying to work from home with with their children, trying support their children, it is such a knock-on effect. It can really ripple, and that's always the thing I find with these, it ripples so quickly.
Creating Inclusive Behavior Policies
00:24:30
Speaker
So what does an inclusive behaviour policy look like then for schools? So, you know, one that allows for actions by children that aren't, you know, there's not a choice that the child's acting in that way. What would you say are the key principles, if you like, of ah an inclusive behaviour policy?
00:24:48
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So firstly is um everyone being trained. Not just the pastoral care team, not just the centre team, everyone have very specific training on special educational needs. So, and what that does as a starter is when children are coming through the door, if every teacher is aware that behavior is communication, it then means that actually they're not telling the children off the door, it gets everyone in. So everyone having a specific training.
00:25:12
Speaker
Having a policy which is collaborative with parents, with the students, and multi-discipline agencies calling in. So often I will go in as a counsellor to look over policies and work with with and schools and policies. From a mental health point of view, okay, can we tweak this? How would this look differently?
00:25:32
Speaker
then from a practical point of view, it's a case of like that teacher i just mentioned. What can we put in as a basis? What can we put in the foundation which then supports these children the minute they walk in from school?
00:25:45
Speaker
to have everything they need. Like said earlier, that jumper, take the jumper off. Does it really matter? In a school policy, does it really matter if that child is sitting in class without a jumper? It really does it. if That makes them comfortable and that makes them regulated and they can learn if it doesn't matter. So flexibility where you can and support from the basis and then removing all the isolations. They do not work. They are so, this is my biggest thing isolation. They're so damaging to children.
00:26:13
Speaker
Absolutely, there needs to be clean, consistent. The law says there needs to be clean, consistent, safe policies in place. There needs to be a structure that all the teachers follow. So everyone is safe, teachers and children. But having that structure that can be adapted to the child's individual needs and is about connection.
00:26:31
Speaker
And i always think with the isolations and the detentions, it takes so much staff time. Instead of having detention, Again, like said earlier, there's these lovely words, reflection time, sit with the teacher.
00:26:41
Speaker
that same time, adjust it, sit with their teacher. Okay, what's going on for you? What can we do to help? Because we can get to the bottom of it. And sometimes it's a jump, a pain. Sometimes it's bigger than children coming from school starving. They haven't eaten that morning. Or maybe there is a situation problem at home. And actually then you can see what is actually going on and put the support in place.
00:27:03
Speaker
If you have counsellors, if you have passion of their team, put that support in place. The behaviour then actually stops because what they're doing is communicating with you. So all these, which I would say little things, know it sounds like a lot, but they're actually little things that can be put in place.
00:27:17
Speaker
which just reduces the punishment, the sanctions, and converts it to what we need is connecting with these children and teenagers, from school and and second school, connecting with these students and seeing actually what is bubbling underneath their behaviour and what they're actually trying to communicate with you.
00:27:37
Speaker
oh that's ah that's so key isn't it it's you know it's that that flexibility it's those connections and we talk a ah lot about that when we're delivering training for the pda society and but that's coming through exactly and what you've just said you know you've got to look at the individual child of you've got to have those questions you've got to adapt to how that child presents and what what they're going through and where their level of anxiety is at and you know the the the example of the teacher you gave there it was great and because that there is he's just he's working with the children in his class rather than against the children in his class which is great so what about um rewards then or things to incentivize children that don't cause anxiety have you got any ideas around that yes a children so children and adults people generally generally want to do the right thing they generally want to turn out they generally want to work
Effective Praise Strategies for PDA Children
00:28:30
Speaker
well. As I said, when when you start putting rewards in place, it can adjust that so then you are working towards trying to conform and trying to do the right thing for the reward rather than educators seeing you for who you are.
00:28:44
Speaker
And like I said, ah that will change across the board and it can be quiet little, ah It's so lovely to see you today. i'm so glad you came into school today. That is the reward. That is often enough for the child to be like, oh, that's lovely. My teacher wants to see me.
00:28:59
Speaker
Focus on the work with PDA on whether sometimes positive rewards said to you can feel like a demand in itself. Then you have to live up to this demand. which Again, be really careful to reduce the demand. It's not something they have to live up to every single day. Rewards that they have to conform and comply and Mask to achieve aren't rewards. That's a great piece of work. Well done, I love you writing that. That's lovely. Very quietly sitting next to them.
00:29:26
Speaker
Anything which is individual, individual for that child is going to work better than anything which is a sweeping the reward that only certain children get. Yeah, now that that that makes total sense. and I know we're going to be recording ah a webinar on this very topic, and so we'll have a lot more information on there.
00:29:46
Speaker
But just to finish off today's podcast, I want to end with this question, which is really sort of a pause for thought, really, for any teachers listening.
Rethinking 'Naughty' Behavior as Communication
00:29:55
Speaker
If there was one thing that you wish every teacher or school leader understood about PDA and behaviour, what would it be?
00:30:04
Speaker
It's communication. children are not naughty, there's no such thing as naughty. Kate's also in the quite brilliant books on this, but there's no such thing as naughty. It is communication. And if you see every single behavior as a communication, you just see what's going on differently.
00:30:23
Speaker
Children are not naughty. They're trying to tell you something. Yeah. Oh, that's brilliant. That's great. Oh, thank you so much, Beth. I really enjoyed that. And it yeah you know it really hopefully will highlight to parents, to teachers, to any other educational professionals as well, that actually it's time that we do start doing things slightly differently in schools and approach this topic differently. So and hopefully that will have and sort of get some minds thinking about that. And as I say, we're going to dig a lot deeper into this topic on a webinar. So thank you so much for coming on our podcast today. And thank you to our listeners also. and We hope you found that useful. If you need any extra support, then please do take a look at the PDA Society website and where you can find lots of support and more helpful information.
00:31:10
Speaker
So thank you once again and until next time, take care of yourselves.