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Animal therapy for children with SEND
384 Plays5 days ago
In this episode we’re chatting to David Boxall from Elysian, who provide alternative farm-based education, about how animal therapy can support children who have been failed by a mainstream education setting.
To find out more about supporting PDA children in school, check out the information on our website or sign up to the PDA Training Hub.
Guest links: https://elysianuk.org/
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Transcript
Introduction to PDA Life Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to PDA Life, the podcast brought to you by the PDA Society, where we'll be exploring the highs and lows of pathological demand avoidance. I'm Rachel. And I'm Sarah, and we're your hosts.
00:00:14
Speaker
As the UK's only PDA charity, we're bringing together PDAers, carers, clinicians, and researchers to answer the questions which matter to you most.
Guest Introduction: David Boxall
00:00:24
Speaker
Hi everybody and welcome to this podcast. I'm Sarah, your host, and I'm delighted to be joined by David Boxall, who is our guest speaker, and he is the training and development coordinator at Elysian. And Elysian is a fantastic organisation who provide education through farm-based registered secondary schools, outreach services and alternative provision. um And they also um offer a range of therapy and therapeutic interventions across different needs and ages in Surrey and Hampshire and their borders. So a very warm welcome to you, David.
00:00:57
Speaker
Thank you, Sarah. It's lovely to be here today. Fantastic.
Elysian's Unique Approach to Education
00:01:00
Speaker
So I guess the first question, you know, that will be on everybody's minds, our listeners' minds is how does the Elysian approach differ from more traditional behavioural or educational methods?
00:01:11
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. um So our young people come from ah a wide range of backgrounds. They come from quite a wide geographic range as well. They come from all over the counties of Surrey and Hampshire.
00:01:25
Speaker
But the the common factor for all of them is that they, for whatever reason, have been unable to attend mainstream schooling. And this can be for months and it can be for years. They're secondary age and they tend to be towards the last few years of secondary age as well. And so most of them arrive with quite a deep in felt reasoning that it hasn't worked for them.
00:01:52
Speaker
yeah I think the vast majority of them will be neurodiverse. and a very large proportion of them will have autism and the PDA profile within autism as well. So we have some very complex young people.
00:02:08
Speaker
um But I think your question is about how do our approach differ? Well, the first thing is we're based on farms. We have a really lovely selection of fantastic animals and animal assisted interventions. So that's kind of the the the first big difference. they're They're working on a farm for the day when they come to Elysian. But I think the ethos is that we have the the time and the capacity, perhaps, that mainstream education doesn't have to look for those strengths and the interests that really motivate and encourage our young people.
00:02:46
Speaker
You know, they're they're arriving and they can spend time with a really wide variety of of different animal species and individual animal personalities, because we've got some some quite naughty animals, but we also have some gentle, lovely and and kind, sweet animals that depending on the personality of the the young person, we sort of pair them up and match them up with these activities. And I think we've always been able to find an animal that that young person is is interested in. And sometimes, and and I think quite often actually,
00:03:17
Speaker
they will arrive with this expertise in an animal, perhaps an animal that they've been passionate about in their past, or perhaps an animal that they have experience of in their own lives. So we can give them that opportunity to sort of find something that brings them joy. And and that's a really, really important aspect of what we do.
00:03:39
Speaker
One thing I think as well is it's really common for our our young people to have felt that they can't trust others, that they have had negative experiences, perhaps they've encountered things through their their careers ah in education, and that relying on people can be quite challenging for them. And so where animals come in is that animals as we'll we'll explore as we talk today, they don't care what music you listen to or or what clothes you like wearing, what the animals are interested in is your energy and your your kind of interaction with them.
00:04:14
Speaker
And so It's something that alongside the animals, our team helped to reassure the the young people that they're safe, they're valued and that they can be themselves. And it's such an important message. You know, you are great. We like you the way you are. We think you're wonderful. um And I think a lot of them arrive with this heartfelt feeling that it's just going to be another school. that They're just going to have another set of rules. They're just going to have another set of restrictions placed on them.
00:04:44
Speaker
And our team works really hard to try and find ways of putting boundaries in rather than rules. So we'll say it's okay for you to wear that or to look that way or to have hair that color. Those are the sorts of things that won't affect your interactions with the animals at all. But our rules are usually around safety. So we'll have safety rules, but they're they're understandable. And I think that young people really respond to that.
Impact of Elysian on PDA Individuals
00:05:08
Speaker
They get their sense of autonomy and they really enjoy the sessions that they have. And it's something that fills them with this sense of, i again, success, joy, all these lovely feelings.
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah. And that, you know, is so is so lovely to hear, you know, as somebody who has a lot of experience with PDA young people, I mean, that ethos is just superb. I mean, we know that 70% of PDA young people are either out of so regular school or regularly struggle to attend. um And I think you've identified, you know, a lot of the reasons for that. um and you are seeing an increase in the number of PDA service users. um But I think the thing that resonated with me but most really was that trust, that safety, and helping them feel valued, because a lot of PDAs have very low self-esteem, you know, because for years they've been told they're not good enough, um you know they can't do the things that they want to do or that other people would take for granted. So I think you've beautifully described just, you know, what a superb
00:06:09
Speaker
and um well-matched ethos you have for PDA individuals. um Just a quick question out of curiosity for me, what sort of animals do you have on the farms? Well, i mean they're farm animals in the kind of the main group. So we'll have horses, we have sheep, goats, which is one of the go-to animals for any sort of working alongside behavioural or emotional needs because goats are just incredible. um So we have lots and lots of lovely goats, but we have donkeys. We have a few more exotic
Meet the Animals at Elysian
00:06:41
Speaker
animals. So we'll have our alpaca, mini alpaca herd, who are just wonderful to to spend some time with. um And then we have some smalls. So we'll have guinea pigs, rabbits. We've got chickens. And then we've got some very unusual animals such as Cupcake, the giant python, eight and a half to nine foot of snake. that
00:07:03
Speaker
um When you say that's ah an animal that can really support young people in developing their emotional well-being, I think people think, why, how? But it's incredible because Cupcake is just a a beautiful creature and offers something very different to the furries, the the things that, you know, the the guinea pigs, the puppies, those sorts of things that people go, ah, but we have young people who are just as excited to work alongside Cupcake as other children would be to other work alongside kittens.
00:07:33
Speaker
We also have something called Tenrecs, which I'm not going to say what they are. So there's a bit of a thing people can look them up. Tenrecs, I think they're amazing and I really enjoy working with them. A bit later on, I'll come back to Tenrecs and I will share what they are because yeah I don't want to give anyone homework from our our conversation today, Sarah. Brilliant. So how can different animal species be effective with neurodivergent individuals? um You know, what is it about animals that makes them perfect to work with young people like this?
00:08:01
Speaker
Well, you've you've kind of put some of those... aspects of the the PDA profile already at the the top of this conversation, that idea of trust and the idea of being able to rely on something else, because animals are non-judgmental and it's so important that we recognize how important that can be, because if you're somebody that's perhaps felt for many years that No one likes them, no one cares about them outside of of their families when they' they've got that that support. But when they're dealing with anything external, it can be a very unsafe place. So what an animal can offer is that unconditional positive regard because you arrive with a bucket of feed and you're going into the goats and they're excited to see you. And they'll do that every single time.
00:08:54
Speaker
And what's amazing is to watch the the young people becoming so confident ah alongside animals that perhaps they were initially a little bit worried about. So a great big horse, for example, they might find that physically quite overwhelming. But once they've gotten to know that, that horse as a, an individual creature and they learned the right way to interact with them and our team will guide them through it. And they will very, very gently encourage them to try new things and to
00:09:26
Speaker
take that risk, you know, do something that they perhaps didn't think they were capable of doing. And then there they are grooming the feet of some giant horse that would fill me with terror because horses were my, my kind of start point was I was really worried about being around horses and having someone explained to me horse body language and the energy that horses can give off and helping me to feel safe around the horses then I'm i'm the biggest advocate for it now. I think it's amazing. And so you you put these young people into situations with animals that perhaps initially they were very skeptical of or what they might feel worried about.
00:10:06
Speaker
And if you do it slowly and gradually over time, they build this sense of achievement. they as i said earlier they can become the expert in the animal and that's a really lovely thing so they'll tell you why you're doing something wrong you know no no the the rats don't like that the rats prefer it this way and you think okay i'm with you on that one so animals can be this lovely way of of um helping someone to open up And a thing we talk about a lot with Elysian is the idea of of the triangle of work that we'll do. So we'll have the the professional and the young person. And then the third prong is the the animal.
00:10:43
Speaker
And if you can imagine asking any of the young people that you're familiar with, how are you feeling today? That question is just, it's too vague. It can be overwhelming and it can be a shutdown question, can't it? But if you ask the young person, how do you think the guinea pig's feeling today? well how do you think the goat's feeling today?
00:11:01
Speaker
they can tell you and they may be sharing how they're feeling. And it's something that we can then, as the professional, kind of log that in our our thinking and go, oh, that's interesting. So they've they've noticed that one of the horses is standing on their own today. And their description of that is the horse is lonely or nobody likes the horse today.
00:11:21
Speaker
I'm just giving you a couple of of very, very strange examples, but that would be the sort of conversation you would have. And that's another really big part of the the power of the animal intervention, because it it makes it a safe place to talk. And lots of the research and lots of the history of AAI, animal assisted interventions, is people noticing that clients or service users that they were working with or supporting would happily talk to the dog in the room. And that's You know, you'll you'll hear about schools where ah children who don't like reading will comfortably sit in the corner and read to the class dog or the class guinea pig because it's safe and it's an amazing experience for them. So.
00:12:05
Speaker
there's There's lots of reasons why animals have this incredible power to to support us. Yeah. And the dog's not going to tell you if you've mispronounced something or missed line or whatever. So it gives that autonomy as well, which is absolutely brilliant.
Accessing Elysian's Services
00:12:18
Speaker
I guess a question that I've got to ask it. How do parents access your service?
00:12:25
Speaker
Well, we have to go through because we are ah a school, we are and we are an alternative provision. So what parents who would be interested in this, who perhaps they they're thinking my young person has a real interest and a real passion for animals, because that's really important. um We've had in the past young people that have been referred to us through schools that when they arrive, it's just not a good fit for them because they just don't have that that bandwidth at that point. They're not particularly passionate about animals they like animals but it's not something that they're sort of desperate to get involved with um but it comes through a school referral it will come through the authority or referrals or something like that and um ehcp will be a really big part of the the the process however we do also have opportunities for families to kind of come and have sessions with us they can come and have uh pony play or something like that and on our website there's ah a range of activities that if you think your young person would really benefit from that it would be ah a lovely way to get to know us and to get to know the animals it's something that I would really encourage people to have a look at as they look at our website see what sorts of activities are on at the weekend and in holidays and that might be a good way to to sort of start the ball rolling as it were
00:13:48
Speaker
Brilliant. And I'll put the details of your website in the um in the notes alongside the the podcast so people will be able to see that.
Positive Changes in Children
00:13:56
Speaker
So in terms of, um you know, what changes in the child, what changes do parents and carers often notice after somebody engages with one of your programmes?
00:14:07
Speaker
Well, we get some lovely feedback from parents and carers. And one of the first things I would say is that they'll say to us, thank you for sharing the good news. You know, if we're we're very keen to let our our parents, our carers and our families that are supporting the young people, we let them know the celebrations as well, because I think many of them will have experienced that relationship with with education, where the only calls you get are to tell you that there's been a problem or that there's been an issue. So we will try and make sure that every time there's a ah tiny step forward that we're recording it, we're making sure that our staff
00:14:44
Speaker
have a really positive working relationship with with the young people that come to us. So if they build up and it's not a friendship. That's the wrong way of describing it. But it's a friendly, working, trusting relationship so that the parents can know that when we're telling them they're doing something well, that it's real. It's not just because we want it to be, you know, a pat on the back for Alicia. And we're actually saying your young person today did this. And it was amazing. And we really enjoyed working with them.
00:15:13
Speaker
i think we also get um the idea from from feedback from parents and carers that that daily struggle reduces there's there are still going to be the daily struggle to get up get going brush teeth get into the the car the taxi whatever it is that's obviously going to be part of of normal life for all of us let's let's face it some mornings are worse than others aren't they but they talk about how they you see a genuine reduction in the anxiety around getting up and getting ready. They see a real difference in them when they come home from Elysian at the end of the day. They might share information if they're they're capable at the end of the day or it might be a couple of hours later when they've decompressed a little and they're saying oh this is what happened today and they'll tell stories about the animals you know this goat did this and I had to go and do this in this field and it was really exciting because this happened and you just get that that perhaps a two-way conversation that I think is so, so important.
00:16:13
Speaker
i'm I think the shift that they notice is that their young person is starting to feel safe. And when they start to feel safe, they start to risk sharing and they start telling people, they might start by practicing on the animals, but they might move on to telling us things that are bothering them things are worrying them and if you've got that again that sort of relationship and that idea of the team around the child we're part of it but so are the parents and the carers so we're able to then share appropriately the information that we can and that the young person is comfortable with us sharing about their successes their victories and we just have a i think a really good working relationship with families
00:16:58
Speaker
I think another point that I would say is we listen to our families. You know, it might be that they have felt for a long, long time that they're sort of screaming into the tornado, you know, they're they're trying to get their voices heard and amongst the chaos and perhaps that breathing space that that can be created around their young person feeling that little bit more secure, little bit happier, little bit more positive.
00:17:23
Speaker
And so when the parents let us know something's happening, we listen and we say okay that sounds like that could be a challenge or is there something we can do to support you and one aspect of of our pda work is that as part of our training recently it was identified that parents just wanted to have space to talk about the things that are affecting them. So what we're looking to do now is to start some form of a coffee morning style approach, whether that's possible, because again, geographically, we have parents in a wide area, but just some way of linking parents up together so that they don't feel alone.
00:18:01
Speaker
And one really key message is we try to avoid that, that terrible thing. And I've had this in in my personal life as well, where your young person is, is having a bit of a tough time. and the school say, well, it they don't do that for us.
00:18:16
Speaker
And they mean it reassuringly, I know, but it can come across as what am I doing wrong as the parent? If they're not doing it at school, what what am I doing wrong at home? So we try really hard to understand that just because we're seeing positive behavior, positive social interactions, that might not be the case elsewhere. And it could be that the the young person is masking and that that in itself builds that level of anxiety and you could get to that that kind of burnout really really quite quickly if you're you're unaware of it so I think we work together with our parents and that's amazing yeah I think it's a really good big strength of of our teams across the the sites yeah wow and you know are you able to share a real example of someone with a PDA profile
Success Stories and Parental Involvement
00:19:03
Speaker
who has benefited from your work um I can and and this this I'm so happy to be able to share this one because um I put this out to our teams. my My role is not face to face with young people. It's more sort of overview with the training needs of Elysian and outreach.
00:19:20
Speaker
But when we were delivering some training recently and a colleague and and I went to the PDA conference, which was just such ah a great experience and so many positive ideas. and we We were desperate to go back and share it with teams. And as we were talking, there was a particular member of staff who just was talking about this this real success story. So I have asked if it's okay to share that experience today and and I've got her response here.
00:19:47
Speaker
What she said was that, you know, our team, it tries so hard to build up significant bonds and that trusting professional relationships with the young people are absolutely key. key And so this young person who joined a few years ago,
00:20:03
Speaker
presented with really significant anxiety and everyday tasks just felt overwhelming and it triggered spirals of self doubt and that could lead to shutdown.
00:20:14
Speaker
They'd been out of education for such a long period and due to their anxiety and their need for autonomy, they just felt they were unable to engage with external services.
00:20:25
Speaker
But the problem was that over that period of time, their sort of coping strategy is that they had become as they described a people pleaser they would put their own thoughts their own feelings and needs aside because they wanted to get things right and they felt that if they got things right for other people that would be wonderful for them and so their masking was a huge issue and that of course came at the cost of frequent burnouts often they could have panic attacks and lots and lots of shutdowns so this experience
00:20:59
Speaker
was why they were coming to us in the first place. But when they started, the approach at Elysian was built on this idea of meaningful, consistent and low demand relationships.
00:21:11
Speaker
And that can be with the animals as well. and That's the the key point, because we use something called pace, playfulness, acceptance, curiosity and empathy. And the way that we incorporated those aspects of learning alongside that commitment to understanding the young person Not looking at the paperwork on its own, not just reading about what they found difficult in the past, but actually trying to learn what they were enjoying and what was important to them, their their interests, their passions. And animals was a big part of this.
00:21:44
Speaker
So key adults took the lead in creating these really safe and predictable environments so they would know what was expected of them. And the animal tasks can be such a ah strength in that because you have a very clear beginning, middle and end and lots of options throughout. You don't have to do it all. You could do a bit of it. I'll start. You join in when you want to. Those sorts of aspects were were so important.
00:22:09
Speaker
And what you found with this young person was that co-regulating with them was was really, really one of the most big priorities that we would have. And when you're working alongside a calm animal, and the young person was calm and the member of staff was calm, that calmness helped them to build that trust.
00:22:28
Speaker
And so over time, using outdoor learning and and the animals that we were working alongside, it just became such a powerful tool and it enabled them to build those connections. They started to engage more and they really started to feel understood.
00:22:45
Speaker
It didn't always work and there were going to be wobbles and and let's face it, we all have those days, don't we, where things just feel like it's beyond us or it's too much but that was part of our process and at Elysian we see the the learning comes from the sessions that work but it also comes from the sessions that don't and each time there's a ah step back there'll also be a small step forward we'll we'll notice something that's worked or we'll notice that they did something slightly differently so even though the session might have had to be scrubbed something went wrong, we can then have that conversation later and say, but wasn't it great when you, and that can be really important for them.
00:23:25
Speaker
So this young person and seeing them gain so much motivation from working alongside animals, it really helped them to build, as I say, that trust in others and to build up a real sense of peace and that with particular activities and animals, it helped them to take risks that perhaps they felt would be on them. and they tried new things and it just began to help them to open up.
00:23:52
Speaker
And this was something that, you know, we saw a real change in their, their ideas, their approach. They just felt like they were in the right place. For the first time, education became accessible.
00:24:05
Speaker
They have with support engaged in more formal learning and they're even doing some learning at home, which again is a huge step forward for them. They're accessing weekly therapies, which might've been beyond them. They're beginning to develop interests and hobbies outside of what they were already doing. And the most important thing is they're beginning to find their voice. They're now talking about how they can advocate for themselves and they're beginning to see the wonderful things they've done and take real pride in those achievements.
00:24:36
Speaker
They're opening up and they're talking about their particular flavor of PDA. They're able to see that they're not some wrong or bad person that they have strengths and they have this amazing gift to give the world. um That might sound a bit cheesy, but that might be how they they felt sort of shut away. And there's a real visible sense of excitement from them coming onto to the farm site every day.
00:25:05
Speaker
Really lovely. They've started to build up some peer relationships as well. They've got small but meaningful friendships and they're beginning to access the wider community alongside these peers.
00:25:16
Speaker
they're going into appropriate activities and they're seeing the success in that. They have taken pride in in sharing their animal knowledge and that can be such an important thing, can't it? That they suddenly feel like they've got something to offer and it's such an important part of their process, helping younger students that they meet at Elysian and helping them with activities.
00:25:41
Speaker
So the the kind of Today's snapshot of this young person is that they're accessing their community, they've got more confidence, and they're beginning to look ahead to life post-16.
00:25:53
Speaker
They're even considering going on to college, which is just amazing. They'd like to take some driving lessons, and they've got aspirations, they've got some dreams that they're talking about. But the really important part of in all of this, I think, is is what this colleague of mine's written. They're beginning to hold a much more strong understanding of what they need and they know what helps them, what makes a difference. And they're able to kind of ask for that more readily, which I just think is ah a real step forward. And the last line that my colleague has has sent to me, it has been a privilege to support this young person over the past few years and to witness their growth, their resilience and their achievement.
00:26:33
Speaker
that's lovely, isn't it? oof Absolutely. i think I've got something in my eye, actually. i mean, honestly, that is just so inspiring, so uplifting. And, you know, I'm sure that that those messages will be an absolute joy for parents to to hear i mean yeah just amazing if only we could bottle bottle that and there spread it everywhere it would just be wonderful so i mean how do you follow that really i think that is the you know a wonderful way to to end the session and i just want to say a huge thank you both to you for giving up your time to to share what a great story with us today but also for all of the staff who work at alicean and are doing such amazing work. um You know, your approaches are just so aligned with everything that we teach on our our PDA training courses. So, you know, it's just absolutely lovely to see what can happen when when those approaches are working. So thank you all very, very much indeed. No, thank you. And as I say, the resources that we gained from working with you guys on the the conference and just hearing the the range of voices. And that's what it's about, I think. It's it's not just
00:27:43
Speaker
having a tried and tested method that's always worked because as any parent of someone with neurodiversity knows day one is completely different to day two and sometimes hour one is different to hour two isn't it exactly and and I think that that's the the key to it is the flexibility and the idea that if you pigeonhole someone just from what they can't do that deficit model you you end up having to then reclaim so much of their their personality because they they just see you as another person or another professional that's written them off and that might be a massive judgment but it's sometimes that's their experience isn't it absolutely great stuff thank you so much and thank you to our listeners for tuning in today and we will post the links in the show notes so hope to see you again next time thank you