Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
When School Doesn’t Fit: The RISE Skool Approach
701 Plays16 days ago
In this episode, Rachel from the PDA Society is joined by Lyndsey Stokes and Keighly Murphy from Rise Skool, an alternative education provision supporting neurodivergent children and young people who have struggled in mainstream settings.
Together, they explore what can happen when education is rebuilt around safety, trust and emotional regulation rather than compliance and rigid expectations. Lyndsey and Keighly share how many of the young people who come to Rise Skool have experienced repeated school trauma, exclusions, anxiety or long-term disengagement.
The conversation focuses on creating environments where children feel safe enough to learn. Rather than prioritising academic targets from the outset, Rise Skool centres relationship-building, predictability and co-regulation. Lyndsey and Keighly explain how reducing demands, observing communication patterns and tuning into nervous system responses helps students begin to re-engage.
Part 1 explores how traditional education models can inadvertently escalate anxiety for PDA learners, and how alternative settings can shift from control to collaboration. The discussion highlights the importance of dignity, flexibility and truly listening to young people.
Key Themes
- Why PDA learners often struggle in mainstream education
- The impact of school trauma and repeated exclusions
- Building safety before focusing on academic outcomes
- Relationship-led and co-regulation-based approaches
- Reducing demands to support re-engagement
- Reframing success in education
Deep Diver Subscriber Episode
For those who would like to go further, Part 2, an exclusive “Deep Diver” subscriber episode, is available through our Training Hub.
You can access it here: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed by guest speakers in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the PDA Society. While we aim to provide balanced and inclusive discussions, individual experiences and perspectives may vary. The PDA Society is committed to using language and terminology that reflects the preferences of PDA and autistic people, but sometimes our guests may use language and terminology which differs. Appearance on our podcast is not an endorsement of an individual, and not all of our guests will align with our position on the issues discussed.
Further sources of support and information
- PDA Society Training Hub: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
- PDA Society Website: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/
- PDA Society Training: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/training/
- PDA Society Support Service: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/support/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to PDA Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the PDA Society's podcast. We're here to chat about all things PDA to help you understand what people with this profile of autism are experiencing and how you can help.
00:00:13
Speaker
We'll be sharing research, professional expertise and the insights of people with lived experience to help you understand PDA and have more tools to make life easier. So, whether you're a PDA yourself, family member, friend or professional trying to make a difference, welcome from everybody at the PDA Society. We hope you'll find this useful.
00:00:39
Speaker
Welcome to the PDA Society
Focus on Education with RISE School
00:00:41
Speaker
podcast. My name's Rachel and I'm your host for this episode. Here we share all lived experiences and practical insights for families, professionals and PDAs themselves so that they feel supported and earnest understood.
00:00:55
Speaker
Today we're going to be exploring the topic of education once again, but this time we'll be hearing from an educational provision who specialises in adapting learning opportunities to the specific needs of their learners.
00:01:09
Speaker
So if you're a parent of a child who with PDA who is struggling in school or maybe they avoid school or maybe they really struggle to engage in any home learning, then this podcast is for you.
00:01:21
Speaker
I'm so pleased to be joined by Keely Murphy and Lindsay Stokes from the RISE School, who have kindly agreed to share their experiences of engaging individuals who struggle with more traditional educational routes. So welcome to you both.
Guest Introductions: Keely Murphy and Lindsay Stokes
00:01:35
Speaker
Would you like to introduce yourselves and say little bit about RISE? Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having us. and Yeah, we're really excited to share what we do at RISE, really. and So I'm Keely Murphy. I am the operational manager of RISE. We've got three sites, one in Bedford, one in Aylesbury and a recently launched site in Bossier in Northampton. um I started off the project with our director in its right at the beginning in its infancy. And it has grown and grown sadly because of need.
00:02:09
Speaker
But and my role currently is to oversee those three provisions. But I'm also qualified SENCO. So it's really important that I have that role and understand that when I'm working in all of our settings, I think.
00:02:20
Speaker
um Do you want to introduce yeah yourself what you do? i say I'm Lindsay Stokes. Hi. So I've been here since the beginning. Yep. OG staff, like right from the start when we were this small and now we're just growing and growing and growing. um I do outreach Monday to Thursday and so I will reach out to those who struggle with coming into the building or even just entering the community and that struggle just to you know a lot of those that has been not in school for many many years um and just struggle to just to leave the home. and i don't just see those students I do see some that are able to leave the home and whatnot. So it's very, it's a mixed pack, isn't it? Like a mixed abilities. and So that's Monday to Thursday and I'll work alongside them to try and either re-engage them in education or deliver education in the home or just try and get them back into the community. um Whatever that that young person needs really, um that's what we
Exploration of RISE Programs
00:03:23
Speaker
do. And then on a Friday, I cover the Rise Ignite project. So we have young students from secondary schools that come in to us and we help with their mental health with their how they're feeling about their self their self-esteem their personal development and we do all of those types of things lots of team building exercises and cooking and we've just introduced the gateway some gateway qualifications which is quite exciting i um yeah just a complete re-engagement program just to help them um before they start falling out of education again because they're already struggling within the mainstream system so that's on a friday
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah. So very, very varied roles then. i You know, there's lots there to keep you busy, isn't there? So and I guess for for our listeners that don't know what RISE is, would you like to just sort of give, I know you've you've touched on it, but just give a little bit of a background of of what it is and um sort of the the services that you offer? Because you've mentioned a couple of your sort of RISE Ignite there and a couple of others as well. Would you like to just give a little bit of an overview, if you like, of what RISE is? Yeah, sure. Yeah, really happy to do that. So... um as we've sort of already described, it's kind of evolved over time, um mainly because the purpose of our organisation is to provide education for those young people where traditional education has not worked. So on that basis, we started with one project and then we've evolved to create others to accommodate needs that we maybe weren't able to meet with those initial projects.
00:04:52
Speaker
So we've got RiseSpace, which is basically a specialist setting. We deliver creative and dynamic, innovative kind of whole person education programmes. Those college spaces are for 16 to 25 year olds and it started as a post 16.
00:05:08
Speaker
And ultimately, it's about working towards outcomes, EHCP outcomes, building well-being, confidence, self-esteem, resilience and aspiration, um and creating that sort of sustainable change to lives, forming long-lasting friendships, cultivating sense of security, belonging, self-identity, some kind of affiliation with communities, cultures, relationships.
00:05:32
Speaker
and whilst kind of looking at preparing for adulthood and independence. So that that runs through all of our projects, that theme. um So RISE Space is a college, so young people can attend Monday to Thursday. Then we've got RISE Ignite, which was developed for...
00:05:48
Speaker
youngsters who needed all of the same stuff but they were younger and on role at a setting possibly attending but struggling or not attending at all um so we offer the same things but on a Friday um then we were asked could we do more with that particular cohort so we developed rising night plus so those young kids yeah we added a plus and what that means is they were getting some of their of more formal requirements from education their english and the maths um independent living so on but in in the week um and then we developed a rise surface program which is um
00:06:26
Speaker
It's really kind of a personal development programme, preparing for adulthood and work. So there are some sessions that take place within a setting or within the home, can be grouped, can be one-to-one, but it basically is helping young people to understand how to build skills, build on qualifications, make supported applications for work, have experiences and exposure in the workplace, do that kind of vocational profiling. And we developed Rise Surface because we were noticing that young people needed that kind of hand-on-hand approach once they'd done all the personal development with their college.
00:07:02
Speaker
they needed that support with that transition out. It's almost like the next step. Yeah. Or for combined step. Yeah. but Or some young people just don't want to return to education and they're ready for work, but they need they need to come straight into Surface and we so support them through to the next steps.
00:07:19
Speaker
um And then we developed Rise Stream because there were some young people that actually, however hard we worked with them, going into a physical setting and that environment and that sort of social pressure and demand was never going to be manageable. So we developed RISE Stream, which is an online portal. It's like a digital learning space so young people can access education from home. um But with with Stream, it's it's a wider curriculum because we found the benefits of working with young people with SEND needs, particularly those with PDA, um to work within a creative setting and in an indirect way. So our stream programme isn't just the English and maths, it's opportunity for music, for drama, for um life skills and social skills, um all of that kind of stuff, all online.
00:08:08
Speaker
It's just a broader curriculum, I think, online than perhaps in other settings. Lindsay's talked a bit about outreach. So for the hard to reach youngsters where the SEND barriers are significantly impacting them leaving the home, Then we go to the home and work there.
Adapting Education for PDA Students
00:08:22
Speaker
And then finally, Wild, which is our latest project, which we have created in a barn setting on a farm. And it's education working with animals, horses and land-based kind of studies. So there's a there's a lot there. There's something for everyone. There is. You still deliver very English and maths
00:08:44
Speaker
and and yeah Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So the fostering fields are embedded. Yeah. yeah And what what sounds great, though, is that you've evolved it for the needs of the people that you're serving rather than, or, you know, the ideas coming from within. It's it' it's like you're looking at the ideas and looking at the requirements and actually trying to fill those gaps that aren't that are there, unfortunately, but you're managing to fill those gaps to help, as you say, help them from... It's come forward.
00:09:13
Speaker
Yeah. know nice um you know what the barriers are and and why the the young people are struggling and then they've managed to work around that that that's been the key and because Everyone's entitled right everyone should be able to have an education, regardless of their disability or, or you know, their mental health or or whatever they're struggling with so they're still entitled it just means we just need to work a way that's going to work for them.
00:09:38
Speaker
that Yes, and we know as you say with lots of PDA is that we know there's lots of, you know, not, ah you know, even if there aren't learning needs as actual learning disability there but we know that there are lots of barriers to learning in that actually they might be very capable children but they just can't engage in learning in a traditional setting so what types of experiences then if the children that come to you or the young adults that come to you what what tends to have been their previous experiences of education and and therefore the work you know that grounding work maybe that you need to do to re-engage them
00:10:14
Speaker
I mean, actually, there are some commonalities, but but a variety of settings and ways, I would say. I mean, the the commonalities are all of them have had a really difficult send experience in that it's gone from. being a bit of a battle to be understood, then then a bit of a battle to find the right person who's going to advocate and support that process of curiosity, investigation, assessments and so on. um So that's obviously been quite difficult for all of our young people and also consequently their families. um
00:10:51
Speaker
And that's quite a significant theme with our young people, actually. I think sometimes it's underestimated the impact that um that is had on the young person as a result of their parents and siblings having to also go through quite a difficult process. yeah um So there's that often. um i think I think a lot of it as well is how they feel about themselves because they spend a lot of time being in trouble for things that are not their fault. and being misunderstood and you know being seen as behavior because um you know where they've come from PDA is not massively understood or known it's is starting to be recognized a hell of lot more now which is amazing and but unfortunately those that come to us have had years upon years upon years of um you know being told that they are doing something wrong or you're they're in trouble they're having detentions or you know they're not managing in school life at all and you know and it's all been put onto them so
00:11:47
Speaker
ultimately the mental health we have to work with. Mental health is often an issue. Yeah, that's usually the biggest thing and that comes our way. So we have to try to support and work with the mental health before we can even start thinking about anything else because you know that's the initial challenge and that's the process in itself and the the burnout yeah it's often there ongoing anxiety around education trust depression low self-esteem self-harm trust quite often they've got to um it takes the whole thing is is a really long time you've got you've got to be very invested and you've got to care and you've got to be um i'll use keely's favorite word is to be curious and to you know, get a lot of the information from them, but also from the parents, because we definitely, you know, we
00:12:38
Speaker
we We want to hear from the parents. you know They are they are um the biggest advocates for their kids. They're the experts. We're learning from them and what they say. We need to you know we listen to that and and we work yeah know quite collaboratively all around so to understand what that young person and family has been through before we start figuring out how we're going to support and um what that looks like. Yeah, absolutely. And we've also got sort of young people who may have been in specialist education. So they're kind getting to move from special education and remain in special education. um But... um
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of our youngsters have emotional-based school non-attendance. don't particularly love that term. No, but yeah. But the reality is school has just not been accessible to them for whatever reason. So they may have been at home for a considerably long period of time. Some, I think up to five years was probably one of our more significant cases. Some are home-educated.
00:13:43
Speaker
um parents have been in and out of things yeah some have um yeah some have been home educated and some have been educated at home because they've been unable to accept um access any sort of mainstream settings they might have had tutors coming in and so on most of our young people who maybe were um Having education at home, parents didn't necessarily want to take that route, but there wasn't any other available to them to protect the mental health of their young person. So a lot of youngsters have been at home, but not necessarily wanting to be at home, but um not being able to find anything else. Not finding the right
Challenges in Mainstream Education for PDA
00:14:20
Speaker
place, isn't it? And, we you know, everything that you've just said there, from the, you know, the low self-esteem to the not being able to engage, but wanting to engage, but can't find that right setting to getting into trouble with behaviour. Everything's been seen as a behavioural choice rather than it's something that can't help but do. But...
00:14:39
Speaker
You know, that is so reflective of the PDA community. and but You know, the parents that we speak to is, you know, you could be one of the parents that we were speaking to, that we speak to frequently, you know, that that to to say the struggles that they have with trying to find that right fit for them.
00:14:55
Speaker
I think, you know, with families, they they are completely open to trying whatever's going to work. yeah lots of Lots of different things get thrown at them, like, you know, do this, let's try that. And they they will go through trying all those things. But the problem is, is that unless the educator and is has an understanding of PDA, it's kind of like, you're kind of set to fail. And you know, so it's almost like, and and and each time it fails, it's another, and it's another, know, smack to the young person and the family and how they feel. So then the next time they try something else, it becomes even more difficult. because you know they're just expecting um you know it just to be a disaster so it's important that you find the right place the right person who's going to be supporting that young person to have an understanding to to learn the language to be interested because otherwise we're just setting to fail and that's not fair yeah yeah I think it's difficult isn't it because you know these these young people have come from experiences where everything that's
00:16:01
Speaker
that mainstream education approach stands for is the opposite of what's but potentially required so they're in a system that is is opposing their needs in some ways and you know all those sort things you hear about you know look at me when i'm talking to you and you know trying to sort of have young people to to have manners and impressing those elders and yeah respect your elders controlling that sort of power that power sort of yeah hustle and needing to be in control and so on um and and that's you know that is very difficult in a mainstream setting when you've got 30 youngsters a variety of needs you've got you know training
00:16:41
Speaker
or I've said that you that you've got to be performing for and there isn't necessarily that flexibility and adaptability available within that setting so you know they are they are up against it um but it's beautiful when you get it right and you know you're working with staff where actually I'm going to pick my battles and I'm not going to push you for manners at the moment because actually I just want you to be in your well-being um and you know what's more important in the moment um we get to know our students really well so we kind of know Like, because you still have teenagers, let's be real. Yeah, course.
00:17:14
Speaker
You still have teenagers, right? So they still have their moments and that's just it teenage stuff, isn't it? But when you get to know them really well, then you really understand them and then you know, before they've even said anything, if if there's something wrong with them. Don't we? Like, we just we just do. yeah i think it's in a setting like ours, it's understanding that if somebody's having...
00:17:36
Speaker
a meltdown or having a difficulty or an outburst or it's completely dysregulated we're asking what's boss up and seeing it as behaviour it's definitely a sign for us to kind of explore further which I think is really helpful Yeah, it's essential, isn't it? I think. And I think that sort of, you know, from listening to the, from what you've just said there, there were two things that were sort of resonating sort of from the PDA point of view is in that first of all, like, you know, you're recognising that actually those individuals have PDA, as we know that they struggle to see any type of hierarchy that they see everybody the same. So therefore, when you're in that mainstream school context, you can see how they're going be batting against the system in that they don't necessarily recognise that teachers have any more power, influence, whatever words you want to say, over the the children themselves because they see everyone as equal. But also from how you work.
00:18:31
Speaker
with children it's actually it's all about the trust isn't it it's building those connections and that trust and again we know that is so important for the pdh community that's key like without that nothing else happens yeah yeah you have to do that that that is that that is essential that's the first thing um we meet a new student and that's your focus yeah yeah and it's completely student-led it has to be yeah yeah once you've got their trust then you can start to build the other things in place and humor And humour, oh yes, humour is wonderful.
Building Trust and Understanding at RISE
00:19:06
Speaker
So just sort of, let's develop that little bit more then. So if you've got um you know a new student that's arrived with yourselves, that and you are building those bonds of trust, how else then would you approach, as well as building that trust, how else do you approach learning with and people who have, as we say, probably have had a negative experience with school, and most likely it's been traumatic for them. So you've got trauma there,
00:19:34
Speaker
but they've got a negative attitude and that relationship with education as it is how do you manage to turn that around what approaches do you use well I think when I have a different approach I think because I do outreach and I go out to a lot of the really complex students I think so ah but with all of my students I like to explain us as so I want you to think about school or think about um you know what they've done or whether it be homeschooling or or school whatever and then turn it upside down and that's always how I explain us and then from that you just have to keep showing up
00:20:11
Speaker
just keep showing up and then you know you're not going away like it doesn't matter i mean their their expectations is that this is just going to be another another one another failure it's not going work you ain't no different education but you know that they've got a negative thought about education already and um and obviously they don't want to be told what to do and all the rest of it so they need to learn us and I need to learn them and they need to learn that we are we safe, we have safe space. And I think as well, like, I mean, two things, sort of follow up on what you're saying. um
00:20:44
Speaker
in that first In those first meetings, they're really quite crucial. So before you go anywhere near the young person, you've done a whole heap of research on triggers, things that might be difficult, words not to mention. Everyone's different. um things you know So you get that information first. So you're going in as as prepared as possible.
00:21:04
Speaker
but then it is about um and i i find demonstrating overtly to the parents and the young people i get it so for example before you do anything you might say hi i've arrived to come and see you but know it's a bit weird having people come to your house how are you with that you okay me coming inside would you rather i stand outside so immediately you're kind of going i kind of get that there's a thing around this for some people And they're getting that choice then, straight off. So autonomy, control, straight away. Is it okay if I sit down? Where would you like me to sit? wheres you know So again, it's just giving that ownership and control. Like starting small as well. We have no expectations, do we? on Like white say we've got a session now and it's ah an hour or two hours. that We're going to be there for that. We're building up to that.
00:21:55
Speaker
So when we, you know, if we say we're going to be, meet you for the first time and it's going five minutes, we're going to be five minutes. We're going to mean that, you know, I've been put on a time in before and I'm fine with that. That's fine. Bye. Bye.
00:22:10
Speaker
Mid-centred stop going, yeah. They want to still talk after that because they think you're funny. Yeah. also I also think that when you're when you're sharing with a young person that you've got a knowledge and awareness that certain things that have never been identified as a challenge or a barrier before are being recognised as something that's quite challenging. Yeah.
00:22:28
Speaker
um It builds confidence and ah it does that with the parents and it does that with the young people. I think massively with parents as well. Sadly with parents actually you often get a reaction of tears, breakdown because it's kind of a sense of relief that oh my goodness you get it. You know even going into the home and sort of you know reassuring parents that look we've got some ideas but we're going to waft them around. You know we're not going to tell them they've got to do anything. We'll give some choice. Other people have tried this and the language is different. and there is a sense of relief so we have to demonstrate that we're different uh very ah early on and that to take it back you were talking about how do we sort of engage learning but i would say that that's the one thing that we don't really touch um it kind of naturally kind yeah that has to come be later yeah because we like right back to our consultation process i think we do that differently so you know we receive an educational health care plan we're consulted by the local authority to see if we can meet need And the first thing we do is reach out to the parents, carers, arrange opportunity for a talk.
RISE's Consultation Process
00:23:30
Speaker
um
00:23:31
Speaker
Then we discuss, you know, how would we be able to meet the young person? How might they manage that? How might we introduce that to them? um We've got sort of pen portraits that we send out. We've got transition booklets so everyone can see everything in advance. um But that process is is rigorous for us because it's so important that but we don't accept young people in our centre where we feel we might not be able to meet their need or equally we make sure that we are fully resourced first for that of initial introduction and then that can fall away if we don't need it but we have to make sure that we get it right so the proposal we put to the local authority is a package that is going to be positive and aspirational and accessible and going to enable the young person to to maintain their well-being throughout the process We we we want to be positive, don't we? Yeah, but also, like, there's a lot of damage that's done um yeah that we see where young people, um when the consultation process is not managed that way, And so people will read a document and say, absolutely can't meet need, but that's the worst day for the young person that's in that plan. So you need to get a context around it, actually. think it's unfair. Well, we have to meet the person to to make that judgment as well, because every single person, with whether they're PDO or not, is completely different. So you might have the same diagnosis even. yeah and But it doesn't mean that you're going to have the same strategies for each one. And also different starting. different yeah start starting point but We start differently with with everyone. We have a similarity of starting, but someone's needs is ah could be higher or different. And it would always look different, wouldn't it? Yeah. And your starting point is is really quite important, but also ah making adjustment to that starting point. So you might all get it wrong.
00:25:17
Speaker
You're having constant conversation with the young person and know they're aware that it's it's adaptable. Like, we'll just we might have made a plan for the next three weeks, but actually, are we still all right with that? Let's review that plan. do you want to change it? Do we start too strong? Do we need to take it back a step? Plan B always works.
00:25:33
Speaker
Yeah. But building those relationships, demonstrating that we... we've got that knowledge and understanding we've got that training we've got only experiences of of PDA and so on um that transition really making that a bespoke process listening um how important it is that um you know, when they come to us or that what they're doing with us is very bespoke to them. So, and we're also aware that, um you know, the joys of PDA is things that will work in this week, next week, it could be completing our shutdown. So it's like, right, okay, so we'll put that back in the toolbox because I'm going to come back to that because I'm not wasting that. It worked at one point and we've got to be able to change it up just like that. And I think we have the ability to be able to do that, which is why, um you know absolutely love who we are because you know because we generally do have that care so we learn in all the time um and not afraid to say when we get it wrong like just own it like like mate I've done that wrong I'm so sorry like I didn't mean and um the respect is it didn't actually take that away from yeah yeah yeah and that's
00:26:39
Speaker
and that's And that's really important, isn't it, with who the PDA is to say, yeah, I got, you know, I'm an a adult, I still got it
Role Modeling and Empathy in PDA Education
00:26:45
Speaker
wrong. i Hands up, that was my fault. That makes us real. That makes you real. And they needat they need that. They've had they've had the fake, is what they're going to see as. They've had the textbook, um and it doesn't work.
00:26:58
Speaker
So you're almost messing up is actually a positive. Yes. Because they're like, oh, okay, I like that person because they actually said sorry to me. Like, yes, yes we are We are on the same level now. Exactly. And how often, you know, um even with parents, how often do parents or, or you know, and teachers say, sorry, that was my fault. I got that wrong. You know, you know it's sadly a rare thing, isn't it? um And I think going forward, if the world was a bit more like that.
00:27:30
Speaker
the world had a bit of EDA language, would be a nicer place. I also think when that need in the educational system to to kind of be in control and, you know, that sense of, you know, that that kind of hierarchical expectation, like if if people could just let go of that and actually at times yeah be graceful enough to to just give the young person what they need in that moment, even if it makes them... feel a bit uncomfortable or it's different and even sometimes going back to the apology thing sometimes saying sorry when you haven't actually done anything just to allow that young person to just be able to move forward and not punish themselves with things or you know I'm so sorry, actually, I could have done this for you and I didn't. So that's happened because of me. I'm really i sorry. I mean, their feelings are real, aren't they? If they're feeling like you've done something, then but whether whether we think we're right or wrong, we we still own that because their feelings validate their feelings. I'm sorry you're feeling like that. I didn't want you to feel like that. That wasn't the intention. Yeah, that's so important, is that constant validation. But also, like bearing in mind that what you're dealing with with pda which i think a lot of people see it see it as defiance or obstructive or all these negative things actually they're young people who are in panic mode then their nervous system is dysregulated all of the time effect they're in fight flight freeze kind of responses all the time so vigilance yeah it's insane like so if you work with these young people and you're ah and you're aware of that You know, just be kind. You just see it. You manage things differently when oh i always say when you're using a different lens and you're looking at that behavior. Now, you know, it's on par with someone struggling to breathe with a panic attack. Yeah. And when you start to see that, instead of the throwing of the chair or the or this screaming meltdown whatever, then you start to um manage things better because you have more empathy. Oh, this person's actually in distress. They they might be swearing at me and telling me to do one and whatnot. But you've got to see past that because actually they're in crisis mode at the moment. So what can I do? What do they need?
00:29:47
Speaker
in this moment and then afterwards but you can have a restorative conversation later on like but let's just let's just go like yeah like you can't take it on your shoulders it's not a personal thing you can't take anything personal it's just the moment they will you know you just have to give them that time and just like I said see it from a different lens and then everything changes. I mean, it's things like that that starts to build trust then. That's your trust, isn't it? Yeah. should yes yeah And also what you're doing as well, you're role modelling for them, aren't you?
Encouraging Self-Advocacy and Responsive Teaching
00:30:20
Speaker
You are still teaching them, but you're role modelling that if I get it wrong, I hold my hands up and I admit it. Again, how often do do young children get taught that? you know what I mean? front through Through a role model rather than being told, you were in the wrong, you need to say sorry. But but just by doing it.
00:30:38
Speaker
Yeah, which they can't. Yeah, the hierarchy again. So yeah you yeah this for us to be able to make any difference in these young people's life, we have to be able to role model. And um be we we're never going perfect at that. But like we said, we we own it and we move on and we learn and we and we continue to support by role modeling. And you know one of the big things I found working with young people with PDA is um is a sense of sort of shame and um and a sense of humiliation um that does seem to ride through a lot of the young people that I work with just because they're always feeling like they're wrong or there's a shame in having the outburst, which is ah is an overwhelm, it's a demonstration of overwhelm, but because society sees it as behavior, you know, they've just got this feeling of always being wrong, never quite being enough, never quite doing it in the right way. um And actually to kind of almost help support normalize, you know, it's okay. You're disrecented. It's a nervous system response. And when they know that. And build that sense of safety again. That changes how they start to feel about them themselves. Like, actually... someone's telling me there's a reason why I'm behaving like that because before I'm just being told it's behaviour. Yeah. So, and I feel like I can't help it. So I'm just bad, bad, bad, bad. But actually when we get to have those conversations when they're calm, then it does, yeah. It's like, oh, I am all right. There's a reason. yeah Then they start actually wanting to learn more about themselves because again, with PDAs, I think they spend a lot of time not knowing who they are. and you know When they're younger, there's a lot of that taking on roles of other people and not having any self-identity. and um ga that just they just
00:32:24
Speaker
A whole world of confusion in their brain because PDA is not well known and it's you know it's not established yet like as as ah as as a and standalone diagnosis, which makes it really difficult. So once they start to learn who they are,
00:32:40
Speaker
they start to actually recognize and accept things about them. And then we are also working alongside them to not validate or or say it's, you know, that behavior is fine. We can have a conversation, but then strategies can take over. OK, in those moments, what can we do? So we're going to you know learn some strategies to be able to stop that behavior, because in the real world, you can't just smash up a room.
00:33:03
Speaker
You know, you can't go to work and your boss tell you something and you're going to So that work can take place. And I think one of the things that's key is helping the young people understand who they are, understand their needs, understand how it's maybe impacting them and then explore ways of reducing the barriers or giving them a toolkit to then overcome them. and also we we're really strong on sort of self-advocacy so we will advocate for and model and then sort of enable the young people to have a language around sharing people who they are and what they need to to thrive in the world yeah um but a lot of ah a lot of what we do as well is is using sort response it's very responsive teaching methods so that we we opportunities are creative or created or will like roll with things as and when they arise so we'll jump on opportunity. You've got a and that oh yeah got the flexibility, don't you you can you can add that at that element of flexibility that lots of PDAs need and generally mainstream education system doesn't provide, you guys can put that in can't you?
00:34:09
Speaker
We can go in with a great lesson or or a great session and whatnot and you think you spend a bit of time on that and you're like this is going to be great. it's it's not it's not going happen don't yeah don't ever think that because you're going to go to plan b but you've got it ready for the next one it's fine it'll happen at some point just not today yeah that was an amazing lesson maybe for next week yeah not for today But yeah, I mean, opportunities arise, things happen, life experiences come into play, opportunities, you know, you've you've got to grab those with young people with PDA, because if it's fluid and it's in the moment and it has meaning and it's not forced and it's not set and and sort of too structured, um they're they're the the best kind of but creative spaces, I think, for working with those
Creating Supportive Sensory Environments
00:35:02
Speaker
youngsters. Yeah. Yeah, definitely, because it's when you're in tune with them, aren't you? when you And the two of you are or the group and yourself, you're...
00:35:10
Speaker
you' it the lesson's almost evolving as the time goes on, doesn't it? But yeah it's because you're being responsive and and that that's great. um ah brilliant And i'm very aware of the environment. And that's that's quite key with RISE is making sure that the spaces are as they need to be. yeah um And being super aware of that, super aware of the sensory experience that the young people will be having.
00:35:33
Speaker
It all works. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Oh, that's brilliant. we can We've sort of come to the end of the first part of this podcast. This this is ah in this podcast can be in two parts. and So and for this part of the podcast, and that's amazing. Thank you very much, Keely and Lindsay, and for sharing your knowledge and your experience of working with these children and who just find education, you know traditional education, just too difficult to engage in. and And I think, you know, the approach that you guys take is is absolutely amazing and certainly fits very well with for the PDA profile. um If today's conversation has resonated with you, then remember that, you know, you're not alone and that there is support out there for you. and your child. You can find more resources and guides and and community support on the PDA Society's website and our training hub.
Conclusion and Resources
00:36:24
Speaker
and and and We'll link everything in our show notes and likewise we'll also link um RISE into our show notes as well if you want to go and find out more about what RISE do.
00:36:35
Speaker
um If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone else and who might benefit. And don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss out on and any future conversations. And if you'd like and to take a look at our deeper dive, the second part of this and podcast, where we're going to go into some more in-depth questions, and then please and take a look at that on our training hub. So thank you once again, Keeley and Lindsay. And thank you to our listeners and for joining us today. And until next time, take care of yourself and and each other.
00:37:08
Speaker
thank you hi Thank you. Bye. you. Bye. So if you want to hear more from today's special guest, then there is a longer version of this podcast available over on our training hub. Sponsors of our training hub make it possible for us to create and put out this podcast for everyone for free.
00:37:25
Speaker
As a thank you, they get free access to all recordings and self-guided training on our training hub. Thank you, subscribers, for your generosity. If you'd like to become a subscriber, there's a link in our show notes.