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Learning to Drive
504 Plays12 days ago
In this episode, Sarah from the PDA Society is joined by Tom Crellin and Jim Sahlsberg to explore the experience of learning to drive as a PDAer.
Jim shares his lived experience of learning to drive, including the challenges he faced and the persistence required to complete the process. The conversation explores why learning to drive can feel particularly difficult for PDA individuals, with factors such as anxiety, demand sensitivity, unpredictability and pressure playing a significant role.
Tom and Jim reflect on how the structure of driving lessons, the expectations placed on learners and the high-stakes nature of tests can all contribute to overwhelm. The discussion highlights how traditional teaching approaches may not always meet the needs of PDA learners, and why flexibility, understanding and reduced pressure can make a meaningful difference.
Part 1 focuses on building understanding of the barriers PDAers may face when learning to drive, and the importance of adapting approaches to support confidence, autonomy and regulation.
Key Themes
- Why learning to drive can be challenging for PDAers
- The role of anxiety, pressure and unpredictability
- Demand sensitivity within structured learning environments
- The emotional impact of repeated attempts and setbacks
- The importance of flexible, understanding instruction
- Supporting confidence and autonomy during the process
Deep Diver Subscriber Episode
For those who would like to go further, Part 2, an exclusive “Deep Diver” subscriber episode, is available through our Training Hub.
You can access it here: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed by guest speakers in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the PDA Society. While we aim to provide balanced and inclusive discussions, individual experiences and perspectives may vary. The PDA Society is committed to using language and terminology that reflects the preferences of PDA and autistic people, but sometimes our guests may use language and terminology which differs. Appearance on our podcast is not an endorsement of an individual, and not all of our guests will align with our position on the issues discussed.
Further sources of support and information
- PDA Society Training Hub: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
- PDA Society Training: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/training/
- PDA Society Support Service: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/support/
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Transcript
Welcome and Overview
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the PDA Society's podcast. We're here to chat about all things PDA to help you understand what people with this profile of autism are experiencing and how you can help.
00:00:13
Speaker
We'll be sharing research, professional expertise and the insights of people with lived experience to help you understand PDA and have more tools to make life easier. So, whether you're a PDA yourself, family member, friend or professional trying to make a difference, welcome from everybody at the PDA Society. We hope you'll find this useful.
00:00:38
Speaker
Hey
Navigating Driving for PDA Individuals
00:00:39
Speaker
hello everybody and welcome to this podcast episode where we're going to be discussing learning to drive for PDA people. I'm delighted to be joined tonight by Tom and Jim who both have both well both have very different perspectives um and I'll let them introduce themselves so Tom would you like to introduce yourself first.
00:00:59
Speaker
Okay, yeah, my name's Tom Crellin. My daughter is coming up on 21. She has nearly finished learning to drive. She's been taking her test a couple of times now.
00:01:09
Speaker
um So we're nearly at the end of the process. Brilliant, fingers crossed. And Jim? Hello, my name is Jim Salzberg and i am a PDA who has learned to drive, well, took six attempts to get there and yeah, that's, well, happy to answer your questions.
00:01:29
Speaker
Brilliant. So as you can see, we've got two very different perspectives. Tom is a parent of a PDA daughter learning to drive and Jim who's PDA himself and actually been through the process. And I guess I can add a completely different slant, which is a neuro-typical, well, parents of a neuro-typical who has passed his test as well. And I can tell you it was bad enough for them. So, you know, with all the added demands, I just can't even begin to what it's like. also, I'd like to add, have ADI training.
00:01:58
Speaker
bla advanced driving instructor yeah ah guess brilliant that's on hiatus at the moment but anyway yeah okay brilliant so just a couple of bits of housekeeping um you're watching this free podcast whether that's on spotify or whichever is your chosen platform or via the learning hub and we'll start off this first podcast with just some general questions and background on learning to drive and why it can be quite a challenge for PDA people.
00:02:27
Speaker
And then we will be launching a second podcast in a couple of weeks, which is where we answer some questions that our subscribers subscribers have sent in in advance.
Driving Lessons Process
00:02:36
Speaker
So if we start off, maybe Tom, if I can ask you just to explain the process of learning to drive, just so that we're all on the same page. There may be people who haven't actually started the process yet and are not particularly aware of what it involves.
00:02:52
Speaker
Okay, well, if if you're starting from the very beginning, then you need to apply for a driving liing license. The provisional license. Do that on the DVLA website. Once you have your license,
00:03:04
Speaker
the you can, if you want, just get in a car with a qualified driver and start learning to drive. I highly recommend you get since you get an approved driving instructor there to go along with you. second that one. Especially for the first few lessons, because actually, if um if you go along with someone else and they and they start teaching you bad habits, unlearning it is a real problem. So it's it's really good to start. Plus you've got the dual controls on your side.
00:03:31
Speaker
if Well, yes. Yes. Yeah, um as a parent driving driving around, but being driven around with someone without dual controls, it's interesting. Yes, absolutely. That yeah takes takes some learning.
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah. yeah um I tend to find that your children don't really listen to parents as well as perhaps somebody independent either. Plus, I have to say, sometimes parents are the worst backseat drivers. Even though their intentions are good, they can... Like stomping the imaginary brake or gasping when you stop. and Yeah, that does not help.
Understanding the Driving Tests
00:04:04
Speaker
so Yeah, when you know how much them pair parents' anxiety transfers onto PDAs, yeah and you're sitting there trying to be calm yeah you probably knew what you yeah um so one once you've um actually learned enough information uh you will need to go through a theory test which is taken at a computerized test center there's loads of them up and down the country Two parts that test, the hazard perception test where you watch videos and and click the click when you think there's a hazard appearing. And the second part is a knowledge test, multiple choice test.
00:04:48
Speaker
You've got to pass both halves of that and then you're allowed to apply for the actual practical driving test. and the drive The driving test is very stressful because the way it's marked is basically you start off with a pass mark and they take stuff off you.
00:05:06
Speaker
Right. Okay. it's like that negative scoring. Yeah. Every time you get something wrong, take stuff off you. Like an off-bed inspection. or Yeah. Exactly. and But if you can get through 45 minutes with without making any mistakes, then you're free to drive.
00:05:24
Speaker
Okay. And I believe that the um the test is, well, in terms of the deductions, they're split into majors or minors. And obviously you can't have any majors, but there is a certain number of minors. Jim, you know that?
00:05:40
Speaker
I think it was, oh God, I can't remember off the top of my... twelve Yeah, 12 minors. Oh, because I'm trying to remember because the API... No serious or dangerous. There are actually two levels of major. twelve because um Yeah, it's 12. Yeah, it's six minors for a...
00:05:54
Speaker
Yeah, for the ADI one. That's the one I most recently remember. yeah Bear with me on that one. Yeah. OK, so it's not necessarily a bad thing. Just if you make a couple of tiny mistakes, they will just be classed as minors and you are allowed a certain number of minors in that test. So, Jim, talk us through your learning to drive experience. How long ago was it?
00:06:17
Speaker
Oh, God, this was think it was i think I had two. i think I had two different experiences. it was 2000. I was 21 when I was learning to drive. Yeah. Over in Bristol. But then that kind of went.
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't get a chance to take the test, but then it ah too long had passed. But then the one where that eventually led to me passing the test, it was 2015. Yeah, it 2015.
00:06:42
Speaker
Got the theory test and had a few practicals. And yeah, I passed on my sixth attempt. That's tenacity for you. Oh, yeah. And having a seizure on one time. So I had to surrender my my provisional. for and And then, yeah, in the middle of it. But I got there. I was cleared to drive again. Yeah.
00:07:04
Speaker
Yeah. Absolutely. um And does does anybody know, i think the um if you pass your theory test, you have to pass your practical within a certain amount of time. Two years.
00:07:16
Speaker
Two years years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're just we're just at the point now.
Resources for Theory Test Preparation
00:07:20
Speaker
Kira has her two years has expired. So we have to go and take the theory again now. Oh, we we're hoping to book that in in the new year and then get back onto the practicals.
00:07:30
Speaker
Yeah. And when um your daughter was alert well revising for her theory test, Tom, were there any um useful apps or whatever that she used? Because, you know, in my day, it was just there's the highway code. Go and learn that paper format. But I know when my boys were learning to drive, I didn't really have an awful awful lot to do with it, to be honest. But I know both of them had apps and various tests that you could take online.
00:07:54
Speaker
Actually, I have apps still on my phone that were left over from that day. i mean, there's many hazard perception tests or, know, that they have, they hazard perception test videos on it, but I'd be aware of those personally because you tend, people tend to familiarize themselves with them.
00:08:11
Speaker
I probably watch dash cam footage and play what happens next with it. See if you can predict what's going to happen. Looking at the car language and stuff. Yeah, interesting. Try not to laugh at the driver's swearing because a lot of those videos you you try to laugh. It's a bit schadenfreude in those videos, but now yeah they can be quite useful, I feel.
00:08:31
Speaker
Okay, interesting. So what else did Dan? She used two different apps. sam She used the AA, which was ah but back in the days when you got a book and a CD-ROM.
00:08:43
Speaker
but Oh wow, those days! I know, yeah! I mean she bought that when she was a young teenager and worked on it right up and right up until she um began driving practically.
00:08:55
Speaker
So she knew that inside out and backwards by the time she got there. And then we use the official um app from DVSA. i think I think it's called skills Skills for Driving or something like that. as well um But you'll find that you'll find it on the official GovUK websites.
00:09:11
Speaker
That one, you do have to pay for it. um It's not a huge amount. The maximum is about 30 pounds for the year. But that gives you very, very close to the official um has a perception test video. So you can practice on yeah how that test works in reality because it's the same software.
00:09:35
Speaker
It's not the test videos. You can't actually prepare the actual test videos, but it's close enough. bit of a flawed but you agree? Yeah, there are ways of gaming it, shall we say. Did you know that actually driving instructors have actually tried it and they have a higher failure rate because they react too quickly to it and it's like they click right before the scoring window? Yeah, and advanced drivers as well. Those who passed IAM or OSPA advanced tests are also too fast on it.
00:10:05
Speaker
So if you see it, just click and then click again rather than go da-da-da-da-da. Yeah, yeah there's a there's a way of doing Wow.
Challenges and Adjustments for PDA Individuals
00:10:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess, you know, we can totally understand why learning to drive is going to be such a challenge for PDA people because of the amounts of demands I mean, I can remember I passed my test 40 years ago and I can still remember to this day, um sat in the car and thinking if i if I fail, I am never taking it again because it was the most stressful thing that ever happened to me at that point in my life. um
00:10:38
Speaker
So, yeah, really, really stressful. So um if you have an official diagnosis of ASD or PDA, Are there certain things that the DVLA can, or reasonable adjustments, I guess is what I'm saying, that they can put in place for both the theory and the practical test?
00:10:56
Speaker
Yes, there are on the theory, certainly. Ciara got extra time and someone to read the questions for her. Doesn't doesn't help you, of course, on the hazard perception because there's nothing to read. It's just video. But but on the um but multiple choice section. Yeah. You can't be helped there.
00:11:15
Speaker
No, exactly. And how easy was it to get those reasonable adjustments, Tom? Was it just a case of of in the ah in your application, i presume there might be question about it, um or did you have to sort of make a case and write in?
00:11:30
Speaker
Yeah, on the online application, you fill in the normal form and there's a tick box that says you want you want the adjustments um and you have to put in some sort of justification. At that point, you can't go any further with the online form. They will then email you and ask for the proof of the of of of the um the the the various disabilities you you've claimed. And once they're happy with the proof, they will then email you again with offering you specific test dates and times.
00:11:59
Speaker
So you're you're then on ah on an email back and forth rather than on the online form. Okay, that makes sense. That's really good to know, actually, that, you know, if if those reasonable adjustments are are available, then absolutely, you know, that must be so much more helpful.
00:12:15
Speaker
So, Jim, talk us through your journey to literally journey to becoming a driver. um And what were some of the pinch points, I guess, where, you know, the PDA really sort of kicked in and was particularly challenging for you?
00:12:30
Speaker
um I don't think it was particularly. I mean, I didn't need reasonable adjustments, but I am aware that everybody is different. But I think that but thinking about like but that journey, I mean, like there's the anxiety involved in it, like, you know, high pressure situations. That's probably what contributed to me needing six attempts to pass my test.
00:12:56
Speaker
But I learned a bit with each time, but I think it's ultimately because, you know, PDA is about demand avoidance and learning to drive by very nature is is quite a demanding thing.
00:13:09
Speaker
And and it's and it's like, well, you can't decide which route your test route you're going to get. So you can't avoid avoid a certain I know if you're struggling on a certain roundabout, you can't.
00:13:23
Speaker
So I guess I came in with a that mindset of driving myself to it and like, look, I am going to tackle the toughest junctions. I'm going to do this. I think it's all about instilling a drive in the PDA to push themselves, if that makes sense.
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. Because I'm sure that as you know parents as well meaning as we are to actually put more pressure and really, you know encouragement very quickly turns into a perceived demand so that would just make things worse so I guess um you know some advice there for parents or carers is it really has to be self-led it has to be um really something that the PDA is is willing to sort of try the autonomy aspect which is the yes and I guess like maybe talk about talk about the benefits of of driving
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think that, I mean, that that helped me. I mean, like, oh, but I remember wanting to drive and had this dream. It's like, oh, it'd be nice to drive my girlfriend around. at the time or not I mean, like literally, or oh just going going out on a whim. I mean, like, it's... Just that freedom.
00:14:34
Speaker
It's that freedom. It really is. Yeah, I mean, for Kira, she was going out regularly with a group of friends and they were organising who gave each other lifts and she desperately wanted to be one of the people that offered a lift rather than one always having to ask for a lift.
00:14:49
Speaker
That is, i mean, from a PDA perspective or I think it I think it it kind of sucks sometimes to be the dependent one. And yeah, I mean, like there's a there's a sense of power, a sense of control involved in that and And I think, yeah, that I think that aspect would be would drive anyone to, well, maybe especially a PDA ah to learn how to drive because of what it offers them, the power.
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah. Freedom that I could go on about it. But this is a um this is a conversation, not a monologue. Yeah, and every time we'd run out of something and she she's she's begging me to go to Tesco's and get it, it's actually, if I could if i and knew had to drive, I could drive myself to z Tesco's and get it.
00:15:39
Speaker
Absolutely. So, and from a parent's perspective, you know, it's so much better if they can give you a lift as well, after all those years of running them around. So, absolutely. Okay, so Tom, um has there been anything that's been particularly troublesome for Keir or she's found particularly challenging in in the whole process, really?
Strategies for Overcoming Driving Challenges
00:16:00
Speaker
Well, I mean, Jim's already mentioned the the autonomy side of it and the fact that you're you're being instructed, both while learning to drive and particularly in the in the the test itself.
00:16:13
Speaker
a stranger getting into the car sitting next to you and instructing you for 40 minutes is kind of bound to set off a bit of demand avoidance at the end of the day, isn't it? There's no two ways about it. um So, know, we did have to work quite hard to get her comfortable in in the instructor's car um to to to have that um that rapport with the instructor. we were We were very fortunate to find an instructor who was happy to work with her and and make her comfortable in that way and happy to have me sat in the back. Originally, the idea was that I'd be sat in the back for a few lessons while she got comfortable. The the end result was I literally sat in the back for every single lesson she had.
00:16:58
Speaker
So I built up as much of as a rapport with the instructor as as she did. I found that really useful, actually, when I was out um helping her to practice because I knew exactly how far she'd got in the lesson and I knew how the instructor had taught her so you're on the same wavelength yeah so when I was helping to correct her I was doing it the way the instructor had done it rather than bringing my own parental aspect to it and potentially messing up what the instructor had taught yeah or doing all that good work yeah exactly so that that really helped um It took a lot longer and we probably took twice as long as most students take in the in the instructed phase of it.
00:17:43
Speaker
um And a lot of that was her battling herself. I remember she spent a lot of time um in the wrong gear because she was just refusing to change gear. It was too much of a demand. The car was demanding to change gears and she was refusing to. and And things like that were really getting in the way. Did you see needs like maybe automatic or anything like that? She she wanted to try manual and she she's mastered it.
00:18:11
Speaker
Oh, that's great. I mean, struggle with manual. I mean, i I've never had a manual license. No. Yeah. And more and more because, I mean, it won't be long before half the cars on the road are are automatics or electrics, which which are also. Effectively automatic. But even at the time, I felt I'd probably rather have more of my attention on the road rather than say, oh, what gear am I in? but Oh, damn, I've stripped the gearbox.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah. you You made a really good point there, Tom, actually, about you know the fact that there are there are so many demands coming at you It's, as you say, you've got the demands of listening to so a stranger, a driving instructor. You've got the demands of road signs, street signs, speed limits. They're all very demanding. Of the drivers.
00:19:00
Speaker
Of the drivers. What about the examiner? Because that's a different... Yeah, absolutely. They're someone you don't know at that point. You don't choose your examiner. You don't choose your test route. That's where it gets really...
00:19:15
Speaker
I suppose it was really anxiety provoking for them. Yeah. And we we absolutely didn't expect to pass first time because the first time was a practice as far as we were concerned. Kira needed to to understand how the process worked, what it was like having a stranger sat in the car. We'd done mock tests, but we'd done mock tests with it with ah with the instructor she already knew, so it wasn't the same.
00:19:37
Speaker
i And we do know that PDAs have um an even more heightened intolerance of uncertainty than even people with more classic presentations of autism. So just not knowing who the instructor is, not knowing the test route, that must have been so anxiety-provoking. And were you allowed in the car with Ciara when she took that test, Tom?
00:19:57
Speaker
I was. We actually, Ciara has her own car because she's on Motability, so we took her car rather than the instructor's car, and I rode in the back where the instructor would normally ride.
00:20:09
Speaker
So, yeah, it was. She had that level of of support. Obviously, it's a silent support. I'm not allowed to say anything or gesture during the test. Exhibit A. and Yeah. and But I'm there.
00:20:24
Speaker
Oh, just that that silent support in the back. Good old dad. um and And you also mentioned, um you know, about the rapport and some of the things that the driving instructor did to make her feel comfortable, because we know that trust is so, so important in any relationship, but particularly for PDAs. So what sort of practical things did he do that that helped her?
00:20:48
Speaker
Well, I suppose the the easy way of saying it is he was very laid back. but Really, however Keira wanted the lesson to run, then that's how the lesson went. um yeah We would do a few maybe half an hour of manoeuvring and then Keira would be like, bored of this now, let's do something else. He was quite happy to to go along with that. OK, we'll do some long-distance driving or or...
Reflective Practice and Communication
00:21:11
Speaker
whatever was next on the list really um so she never felt that she wasn't in control of the lesson and probably the bit she found hardest and and almost all modern driving instructors do this because they're taught to do this and that's that's reflective practice where you're expected to actually um think about and talk to the instructor about how you felt
00:21:36
Speaker
Did you feel that went well? What could you have done better? And questions like that. And of course, with the the the the limited interception that Kira has, her answers at the roadside were, well, yeah, it was all right.
00:21:54
Speaker
yeah know he didn't She did just didn't really have the skills to to enter into that kind of reflexive practice. um But but we yeah we worked on it, we found found ways around it. um Often it was a case of we'd talk about that at home and then we'd go back to the instructor the next week with Keira's answers to that sort of thing. And we've been able to work, process and work our way through it. Certainly initially Keira found the two hour i am sessions very long and tiring. and So we would actually stop for a break halfway through.
00:22:27
Speaker
And again, the instructor was quite happy to accommodate that. and i totally break halfway through I think finding the right instructor definitely helps me and it helped for me. i mean Was your Kira's instructor like a really serene kind of person?
00:22:42
Speaker
Yeah, and i think it's a be i think you have to be to be a good instructor. I mean, literally, yeah i mean my instructor, I kid you not, I mean, like, any, you know, like, you think of, like, a David Attenborough kind of serene, that's how calm he was. I mean, he never, think the only time he ever raised his voice when he was like, break, break, break!
00:23:03
Speaker
That was the only time ever. I mean, he was so calm. And you managed to stick with the same instructor through until you passed your test. Yeah, i mean I mean, I mentioned one I had in Bristol. Yeah, I can't remember. that Yeah, but basically, I mean, like he was he was a good instructor, but I think there was one where a guy cut me off at the roundabout. And even though he was on my side, he reached over, blasted the horn. And let's just say a rude gesture and a rude word, even though he was on my side, I found that a bit unnerving.
00:23:36
Speaker
Yes, well, I think anybody would, wouldn't they? So, I mean, come on, I've had my fair share. I mean, I had a bit of road rage before, like when a guy reversed into a roundabout and nearly into me.
00:23:48
Speaker
Fair enough. Yeah. Okay. Anywho, we digress. Yeah, we do. So we've talked about what the process is. It's actually, you know, there's ah each...
00:23:59
Speaker
those different steps of the process will obviously be laden with demands, the anxiety, the anticipation. um We've spoken about the importance of trust and rapport with the driving instructor and the pros and cons really of um having a parent teach you or not.
00:24:15
Speaker
um And then we've talked about, you know, the the fear of the unknown and that sort of thing. So Jim, have you got any practical tips on, you know, that you could give another PDA or on how to get over that fear of the unknown or how to, you know, sort of- Fear of the unknown.
Tips for Managing Driving Anxiety
00:24:31
Speaker
i think i think i think there is a big fear, like, for example, like, oh, what do I do in that scenario? And because there there's an unknown thing, you can't decide how other drivers, so you're going to have to be prepared for the unexpected.
00:24:45
Speaker
I think a good way to do it, as as I mentioned before, dash cam videos, like try and think of it, oh, what happens next? Because after doing it for a while and having said, that you can recognize a car's body language, like for example, oh, they didn't indicate, but you can tell they're going to turn left if they're kind of edging towards the edge of the road or stopping and yeah, not indicating it is literally, and the positioning, et cetera.
00:25:10
Speaker
So I guess it's really about the more you can, um expose yourself to the different scenarios the more familiar you can become with the process with that's what what that's going to look like recognizing recognizing typical behavior about what's going to happen and and i think once you've got that down you can confidently do it in in the real world There's ah a lot of driving instructor videos on YouTube as well. So can actually neil I mean he does do watch Ashley Neal, yeah, among others. But yeah, there's there's ah there's a lot. ah Some of the instructors just do mock tests. So you can see time and time again how tests go. Others actually will will video driving lessons and show you how driving lessons go.
00:25:54
Speaker
So you can you can certainly get over a lot of the fear of the unknown by looking at these videos and and seeing the process. Yeah, videos definitely definitely helped me. That's great. In the learning process, a good driving instructor will will make sure that you've you've had enough time to practice the basic skills and you've got them down pat before you start doing the morning. just make sure if it's a driving instructor's videos, make sure you check their rep because there was a bit of a, yeah, there was a bit of a, there was one video from a driving instructor who gave very bad advice. Yeah.
00:26:31
Speaker
I can't remember who it but they'd yeah, just check the instructor's reputation. I mean, yeah, that's that's always the case with YouTube videos, isn't it? Everyone has a very different take and a different reputation. Exactly. yeah Lovely. um So, you know, it is so important, though, that you the basic skills um of car control and that are second nature where by the time you come to actually dealing with complex road situations, because you've got enough processing to do to deal with the complex road situation.
00:27:02
Speaker
without also having to think of, well, how do I break? How do I change gear? Those things need to be second nature by then. So spend the time building those skills and then get out on the open roads.
00:27:13
Speaker
and And another anxiety thing, like, i mean, say, for example, if Kira got into a situation where she needs to prove that she wasn't at fault, I mean, does she have a dash cam?
00:27:25
Speaker
Yes, she does. I'll definitely recommend a dash cam for a situation like that. One that's wide into the back as well. So you've got the back view as well. Yeah. OK, so some some really great tips there. So, um as I say, with this was an introduction to learning to drive um part one. um If you are a subscriber or you'd like to subscribe to our learning hub, then you can catch part two where we will be asking Tom and Jim some questions that have been sent in in advance from parents and PDA as themselves. and asking for strategies and some useful guidance and signposting to those questions so I hope you found this introduction useful huge thank you to both Tom and Jim and we look forward to seeing you hopefully in part two so if you want to hear more from today's special guest then there is a longer version of this podcast available over on our training hub sponsors of our training hub make it possible for us to create and put out this podcast for everyone for free
00:28:27
Speaker
As a thank you, they get free access to all recordings and self-guided training on our training hub. Thank you, subscribers, for your generosity. If you'd like to become a subscriber, there's a link in our show notes.