Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Declarative language made easy
709 Plays14 days ago
In this week’s episode we’re chatting to parent Steve Keightley about how declarative language can reduce demands for PDAers and the difference this has made for their family. If you’re not sure how to recognise declarative language, Steve has created the Ask Gentle app which can help you find a softer way to communicate around demands.
You can find out more, including our previous episode on Declarative Language with Linda K Murphy, through the PDA Training Hub.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to PDA Life Podcast & Focus
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to PDA Life, the podcast brought to you by the PDA Society, where we'll be exploring the highs and lows of pathological demand avoidance. I'm Rachel. And I'm Sarah, and we're your hosts.
00:00:14
Speaker
As the UK's only PDA charity, we're bringing together PDAers, carers, clinicians and researchers to answer the questions which matter to you most.
Meet Steve Keekley: Tech Developer & PDA Parent
00:00:24
Speaker
Hello and welcome to our podcast. My name's Rachel and I'm your host for today. I'd like to introduce Steve Keekley, who is my guest for today's episode. Steve has a background in tech development and is a parent of a PDA child.
00:00:38
Speaker
As a result of combining these, the Ask Gentle website was born. a tool to convert everyday language into declarative language.
Parenting a PDA Child: Communication & Understanding
00:00:47
Speaker
So welcome, Steve, to our podcast. We're really pleased to have you here. Thanks very much having me, Rachel. Very, very happy to be here.
00:00:53
Speaker
And I've been having a little play with the Ask Gentle website, which is, as far as I'm concerned, is absolutely brilliant. But we'll do we shall dig into that a little bit more little bit later on. So I think a great place to start, really, is sort of is instead of looking at the need, why there was a need to create the Ask Gentle website. So as a parent of a PDA child, what is the one thing that you wish that everybody understood about PDA?
00:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, so so good good first question there. So i think, I mean, um'm I'm talking personally myself, and I guess I would, but therefore it's relevant for everybody else, is really that need that the way you have to communicate, I have found in my own experience with a PDA child is so different to my my reference point is mark my son, um my older son who who I communicated, I guess into a more sort of traditional parent um communication style of authority and and and and you know that sort of thing. And I had to sort of retrain myself to communicate in a very different way with my my PDA child. So I think, and I think communication is, I think my wife found, she she has this phrase that all behavior is communication in in one of the books she's many read, as she read. And I think that's very true with PDA. I see that, you know, it really is about what's going on and underneath the surface and how you communicate has a huge impact really on the outcomes of the conversation or the request. So, yeah, I think I think communication is is is probably the most important thing, I would say, in in my experience.
00:02:30
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I yeah think I would agree with that because it how we communicate with them and also how us, our understanding of how they're trying to communicate, how they feel and what their emotions are with
Discovering PDA: Challenges & Epiphanies
00:02:42
Speaker
us.
00:02:42
Speaker
ah you know if we can understand that better then we can we understand what's happening with a you know a child's anxiety how they're feeling and then we can sort if that dictates our actions then really doesn't it so yeah communication is absolutely key and I'm I must say you know hands up I'm still very much on this learning process myself I certainly don't always get it right i think I've come a lot I'm i'm sure we'll get into that conversation I think I've come quite a long way probably in the the two years or so since I became familiar with PDA. But wow, it's still very much a a learning curve for me, definitely.
00:03:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, i think i think I think so. And so so thinking back then, and you know you mentioned that you had your point of reference was your son. um And then you had your daughter and and things were a little bit different. So how did you find parenting your daughter before you came across PDA, before you realised that possibly PDA was going on? Yeah, I mean, it's amazing how different two siblings can be, I guess, both in the same environment. And um my son, who's a couple of years older, um you know you find your way as you do when you're your' parenting, you find your style and the teamwork that you have here, both my wife and I have, I guess, different styles as well. And so what I was finding was
00:04:05
Speaker
The way I'd communicated with my son just wasn't working with my daughter. There was just a lot of friction, I would say, and yeah, not able to achieve what we needed to achieve in daily life. Anything from getting up in the morning and and going to school or or at the end of the day, going to bed and anything in between. So it was, it was,
00:04:24
Speaker
you know scratching my head why why isn't why isn't what I'm doing here working in the same way that it had previously yeah and you know just a lot of a lot of stress and and yeah a lot of challenge really um and so scratching our heads trying to figure out what what was what was different this time around um and um my wife was an incredible force in in terms of researching and trying to figure out what what what might be going on. And that's when we came across pi PDA and saw this checklist and we're like, oh my God, that's that's what it is
00:04:55
Speaker
you know this is This is it. This is the answer we've been looking for. So it was yeah kind of an epiphany
Importance of Declarative Language
00:05:02
Speaker
moment, really. It's that light bulb moment, isn't it? is it's when It really was, yeah. All of your questions then suddenly get answered by this one article or this one web page that you read and you think, they're describing my child. Exactly. And my wife was incredible at just going off. I think it was if it was probably left with me, we would be in a much different situation now.
00:05:22
Speaker
Not necessarily a head in the sand, but... um just not accepting that because because the the behaviors are sometimes they they can be masked or sometimes it's sort of, um I don't know, an extreme version of normal, you know, what you'd expect from a child for that age.
00:05:44
Speaker
um It was really hard to pinpoint. And so my wife was, was incredible at just researching and and trying to figure this out. I mean, I'll take my hat off to her. She was, she was amazing. Oh, fabulous. Oh, that's great to hear. So can you take us back then to the moments when you realised that language itself was that, ah was one of the main barriers for you and your daughter and that, you know,
00:06:09
Speaker
how you found that declarative language could be part of that solution? Yeah, well, again, I give a credit to my wife here. So I'm just going to reference the book name, actually, which I have put on the website, because this is where we all started. Yeah, the Declarative Language Handbook was a book that was by Linda Murphy, um a book that I think we bought fairly early on. And to start with, I was, is sceptical right word? I guess I was, I couldn't see how,
00:06:39
Speaker
something as simple, you know, the examples it gave seems so simple yeah um that i I was very sceptical as how effective it it would work. um But having, so as I said at the start of the conversation, i wasn't getting anywhere.
00:06:54
Speaker
I mean, we were just having no luck in achieving basic, simple tasks with my daughter. So um I really had to make a change overnight and it say overnight, try to change overnight. trying to change my parenting style. And obviously a huge part of that is is around communication. So using that handbook, trying to use some of these examples, and I was finding it really hard because obviously you've you've you've worked in a certain way with with my son and trying to change that communication style is really difficult. I was thinking about actually, because in in a work context, I think I probably use those sorts of techniques when you're when you're talking to people at work. I think it's because you're in the home environment and you know being the the dad, the, you know, trying to be the authority figure. i guess you you communicate quite differently with your kids, but, but actually when I started using some of these examples, we could see we got better, we got better result. We got better buy-in. We were able to achieve more of those basic everyday tasks that we were trying to achieve. Brushing your teeth, getting dressed, what you're going have to to eat, those sorts of things.
00:08:03
Speaker
So it did make a difference fairly quickly. But I really struggled. i kept reverting to my old ways. And when you're tired and you've had a hard day, that's when you're at your worst. Usually, aren't you you know, just.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, it is. isn it And I think, you know, as you say, it's that we have our our ingrained ways, I suppose it is, of the way that we talk and the way and how we were spoken to is when we were children. And that's exactly your norms that you're working with within, isn't it?
00:08:32
Speaker
And then to try to come change that completely takes time, doesn't it? It really really does take time, especially if you've had you know a pre you're an older child who those those norms of parenting worked perfectly fine. And now suddenly you've got to change all the way that you speak. And it um it does take time. It takes time to reprogram.
00:08:55
Speaker
your brain to do that.
Implementing Declarative Language in Daily Tasks
00:08:56
Speaker
So can you recount any of those real life moments then at home that, you know, sort of when you first started using that declarative language thing, oh yeah, that's, that's really helpful. You mentioned a minute, like brushing teeth and things like that. Oh, just how so change all of those sort of, yeah, all of those sorts of simple everyday things.
00:09:15
Speaker
things that you need to do with a kid to to sort of right from waking up, getting dressed, brushing teeth, getting shoes on for school. And then obviously the end of the day, all of those basic, you you I guess you don't, until you think about it, you don't realize how much you are instructing kids um to just achieve the things they need to do to keep them on track. So,
00:09:42
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think there was any, um I mean, all those examples were, and and you know, there are many of them during the day. What are you going to have to eat? What are you going to do now? Can we stop doing that? um Yeah, all of those tasks. so Yeah, and I guess when you start to think about language, that's when you realise how many demands that we put on our, just the verbal demands that we put on our children. never mind all of the indirect demands and hidden demands and all those, but that just the verbal demands, the more when we focus on our own language, that's what when we realise they're racking up through the day, aren't they?
00:10:21
Speaker
Yeah, and i try to explain to them that, you know, I'm not doing this just to be a taskmaster, you know, these this is just, I'm doing i'm doing it to to help you keep on track, you know, whether it's being ready for something or, you know, just being healthy, you know, looking after your teeth. making sure that you're trying to eat reasonably nutritious food.
00:10:41
Speaker
ah It's a lot, isn't it? We're constantly steering and guiding our kids. It is. And so, yeah, it's not until you step back and realize how much with a PDA who that causes massive anxiety that the mindset shift, because these are such simple demands as well.
00:10:57
Speaker
That's, you know, it's not like i need to jump out of this plane. You know, these are really, really basic, simple, everyday demands that that we're dealing with. and it's yeah it's a challenge it's it's a real challenge it yes it is and I suppose because we don't find those demands anxiety provoking it's really again thus it takes great insight to see well actually for my child that is really anxiety provoking even though i do it without thinking about it for someone else it's a real challenge it is like climbing up that mountain or jumping out of the plane and that's that's huge and and actually you know the material that we've read you know the the the information that's out online and actually another really amazing book that my daughter and I read together, or there's a series of books called Ways to Be Me Libby Scott and Rebecca Westcott.
00:11:45
Speaker
My daughter and I read that together. And to me, that was, I think that was, she really enjoyed, first, it's a great story. She really enjoyed the book and could relate to some of the situations that the main character was in, but also i could relate to the family circumstances. And you realize that actually this isn't just you experience in this um there are many other families experiencing yeah similar similar um situations because it's sometimes hard to explain to to friends the the the way you have to live in order to keep anxiety levels in control you know the things that we do uh go into low demand low demand parenting essentially um
00:12:25
Speaker
you know, they're the things that we have to do in order to to to make life manageable, really. Yeah, manageable and function, isn't it? I mean, as you say, it's only when you live and breathe it, really, that you actually realise how language can really make that huge impact. And, you know, and and as you say that, that the reading other people's experiences and and Libby's books and things like that, that really makes those connections then, doesn't it? Brilliant. it really, really
Development of Ask Gentle: A Tool for PDA Communication
00:12:51
Speaker
helps.
00:12:51
Speaker
It's, yeah, so so good, yeah. So thinking about Ask Gentle then, so it's not, I mean, there's lot there's lots and lots of parenting apps out there, but it's not that a typical parenting app, shall we say. So what rule or principle guided your decision making process, if you like, when you were building it?
00:13:09
Speaker
Yeah, so so when did I start? Maybe 18 months or so ago. With the growth of generative AI that is everywhere now and probably wasn't so prominent back then. There's there's a faint the famous one is ChatGPT. These models are brilliant at taking unstructured information that computers have never been able to deal with before and turn them in and translate them. They're basically amazing translation engines. And I was thinking, well, if that's the case, then maybe there's a way that we can, i can use it to translate everyday demands into declarative style language. And so I started playing with it and realized it gave some, it it knew what to do amazingly. And so i thought, well, actually, if there's a way that I can
00:14:02
Speaker
use a tool firstly for myself but also if other people could benefit from it maybe there's maybe there's a tool there and so i just started playing and and and and it was born from there really um so it's partly a like a sort of project for myself to think about okay could i build something that could could work as useful tool i then talked to um an occupational therapist friend of mine who um i told him the concept he was like wow that would be That would be brilliant for some of the teachers that I work with.
00:14:28
Speaker
Because as we said at the top of this conversation, it it doesn't always come naturally. It is a challenge. you've got to You've got to sort of get into that mindset of talking in this particular way. So, so yeah, that's that's how it was born, really. Yeah, and it's great, I think, that it's born out of personal need as well. You know, you you have you had that need. You needed to be able to communicate quicker with your daughter with more appropriate language.
00:14:53
Speaker
And therefore you've got that drive to do it and obviously the skill set to do it as well. But the two coming together, I think it is far more powerful than somebody that who doesn't live and breathe it every day trying to develop a tool that would help, if that makes sense. so Yeah, I mean, often often the best tools are you know solutions that you create for yourself and you just sometimes you create that you're solving for a problem of one. But um judging by the number of visits that the site gets um obviously this is a people are finding the tool quite useful so um so yeah it's given me a really good good feeling inside that um that other people are hopefully getting benefit from it and i think it's it's it's relatively simple um well it's very very simple gives you one one response um you know you put your question in and it hopefully gives you some inspiration for a follow-up response which
00:15:43
Speaker
at the end of the day when you're really tired. I think that's when you know when you're tired and you're really struggling at the end of the day, that's when it can be quite useful to just get some inspiration on how else you might phrase your phrase the request that you're trying to give your child.
00:15:54
Speaker
So from using the app then, and particularly you know with with trying to think of those phrases to use with your daughter, and particularly in those high stress moments, how have you found that it's altered the way that you talk to your daughter?
Impact & Future of Declarative Language Tools
00:16:07
Speaker
I mean, the the the outcomes, at look, it's not... David Sloan- It doesn't work the using that type language does not work perfectly every time, but this chance of success rate the chance of a positive outcome David Sloan- The child completes the task you need them to do, mean I haven't i'm not tracking it, but it feels like it's at least 50% better than the old way of communicating.
00:16:30
Speaker
you know, it it really it really does make that much difference. And i i think I do still slip back into um old ways sometimes when I'm frustrated, but it it just doesn't help. Like, yeah it's sticking in that the declarative language is just so useful. And yeah, it's, I'd recommend it anybody who hasn't tried it, I'd definitely recommend it.
00:16:54
Speaker
Oh, certainly. i think I mean, I think, you know, as well as as well as sort of in the heat of the moments when things are anxiety is high and then being able to come out with those neutral phrases and those calming phrases and is much better. But also just that, as we know, from parenting PDA, as it's keeping that.
00:17:12
Speaker
baseline anxiety as low as we possibly can isn't it it's constantly about that anxiety management and therefore if we use those declarative language phrases in everyday life about all the tasks and every bit of communication we have with our children then that's going to keep those that anxiety lower to prevent getting into distress behaviors yes and then that that point of choice as giving giving the child the feeling of that they have a choice.
00:17:39
Speaker
I mean, it's the same with anybody, right? We all feel like we, we most people probably don't necessarily like being told what to do, but if you feel like you've got a choice in the situation, that we find that highly effective. And so the tool often provides choices depending on what what you've asked it to translate. Have you learned much from people that have on the site? Have you had much feedback at all? have they found it?
00:18:01
Speaker
I mean, that's been that's been amazing. um i think in I think in the last year, i've had about three and a half thousand visits to the site and I've had comment i've had connections from somebody in Canada, in Israel, a couple in the US. I seem to have quite a lot of visitors from Australia as well. yeah um And you know it's been so nice. People have said, this is a this I found this really useful and it's helped me you know is exactly what I set out to achieve with the tool. It's helped them to understand better ways to to communicate with their child. I think I've had a couple of teachers as well just say this is useful from from their point of view and if they're if they're dealing with PDAs in their in their class as well. So yeah, it's been really that's been probably the most satisfying thing actually, getting real-life user feedback. It's i great.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And also what's nice that you mentioned there, there's not just parents that are using it either, it's professionals that are using it as well. So it's reaching out to, as you say, teachers, because we know that in the classroom that can make or break whether a child yeah can can cope in and in a classroom environment, the language that the teacher uses and how they present those demands that are going to be there in the classroom.
00:19:21
Speaker
But if they're presented in and like in a more gentle way, there's more chance that the child will be able to engage. in that learning. So that declarative language there is really important. So it's lovely to hear that, you know, that that you've got professionals coming on and,
00:19:34
Speaker
finding it as well as parents which is brilliant yeah and i think i think the app debt could definitely um one thing i do want to do is is probably be able to give it the persona of a ah teacher uh versus a parent um because i think that will make it give um even better um answers so it's something on the to-do list to try and um a give it a diff be able to use different personas possibly different age ranges on children as well i think um could be quite interesting and then also allow users to give a thumbs up or thumbs down on the response because at the moment there's no feedback if you get a response that you don't really like well um there's there's no way to to sort of feed that back in and and improve it so um so there's as soon as i get some time there's plenty of ways i think i could uh i could uh improve it further yeah no that sounds amazing the fact that you that you're still thinking of different ways that of developing it is brilliant but as you say it's time isn't it it's it's finding time for these things but um It really should. Maybe maybe sort this this will spur me on to do that. It might do. Yeah. Yeah. Now that'd be brilliant. So if we've got a parent listening then who's feeling sceptible or is just exhausted and thinking that words don't fix this, what would you want them to understand about declarative language and how it matters with PDA children?
00:20:53
Speaker
Yeah, I'll say first, I was in their position if they are sceptical about it because it, and it can feel a bit helpless at times. Um, And i was in that position and I was skeptical and I just started trying it and i could see the results pretty quickly. Yeah, pretty much immediately.
00:21:14
Speaker
As I said, better better results from um demands that i was placing on on my daughter. So i would just say just give it a try just put aside any um any skepticism that you have and and just try it and i really you know and if you need if you need to try the app to just to give you a little bit of inspiration but the book is also excellent as well um just just give it a go um i i mean um i'm talking from my own experience but it has been it has been made such a difference Yeah, definitely. And I think it's it is that, as we said earlier, it's that confidence of letting go of what we, how we think we should talk, how we think we should parent, because that's the way we were parented. And then just giving it a go and using declarative language and and um more strategies that will lower that anxiety. So that's great.
00:22:04
Speaker
OK, then.
Personal Traits for Parenting PDA Children
00:22:05
Speaker
So what's the one personal trait that you have that has helped you most in parenting your PDA daughter, do you think? oh um Well, the the thing I've had to work on, as as i think I'm a fairly calm, patient person. And I think that that is tested with a PDA.
00:22:31
Speaker
calmness and being patient is is really tested to the max um and so i think you know that side of it is just and and really the the empathy of understanding that this when when there are friction points or anxiety and it's coming out as as um you know upset trying to remember that this is coming from a place of anxiety. This not this is not about, ah want to be difficult. This is about an underlying anxiety that is is really hard to understand when you're not in that person's body. And that's been the biggest challenge for me to keep remembering. And that's why, as I mentioned, you know, reading the books about other people's experiences and joining some some webinars with other parents in the same situation. Those two things have been the most important, realizing this,
00:23:23
Speaker
it's not just you in this situation and um you know other other families are navigating their way through PDA as well. So yeah, I think patience and calmness and empathy are really important. And as I said, still trying to work on those as best we can.
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's all it's it's a continual learning curve, isn't it? It really is. But yeah, patience and empathy, that that that's brilliant. Oh, thank you so much, Steve. I've i've really enjoyed chatting to you today. I've been on and I've used Ask Gentle myself. And I have to say, it's just as simple as as Steve has said. It is, you know, literally put in what you want to say and it comes out with these suggestions. And I've been using it to, you know, think of different ways of saying things to to my PDA at home. And it's really helped me as well.
Conclusion: Feedback & Future Development
00:24:11
Speaker
So thank you so much for taking that time to develop it for other parents that are in your position. And the fact that it's come from a parent of a PDA child is also and absolutely fabulous. So thank you so much for coming on our podcast today, Steve. We really appreciate it.
00:24:28
Speaker
Thanks, Rachel. It's been very nice talking to you. And I'd i'd say, you know, if if people are using the app and they they want to send feedback, um my email address is on there. It's really nice to get feedback, positive and negative. um I'd love to, you know, be spurred on to develop it a little bit further. So, yeah, any any comments?
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah, but just let send them over. Lovely. That's great. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. That's okay. You're very welcome. Thank you for coming on. And we'll put all the the link to the Ask Gentle app in the show notes for you. And um so please just, you know, head over there, give it a go, see what you think.
00:25:02
Speaker
So thank you very much to listening, everybody. Until next time, take care of yourself and each other. Thank you.